Gaia: The Integral Pod - Media Musings - Ken Wilber: Idiot Savant or Just an Idiot?

Re: Ken Wilber: Idiot Savant or Just an Idiot?

http://timelody.gaia.com — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 20:57:06 GMT

There are many different types of patterns to be recognized. Turquoise and teal do seem to bring with them an ability-or at least a much greater ability- to recognize developmental stage patterns or level patterns. And vision logic definitely brings with it certain other types of patterns (systems) or potentials to see far reaching or universal patterns.

But there are all kind of patterns, to the point where, for example, Howard Gardner defines nearly all of the various intelligences as different forms of pattern recognition - musical patterns, spatial patterns, mathematical patterns, biological and patterns in nature, linguistic, etc.

Yet, it is true that there are probably many more types of pattern recognition/intelligence that have not yet been defined-and maybe Ken's, which seems very unique, is just one of them. I, for example, am working on a thesis to show that acting, comedic and dramatic talent is based upon an ability to recognize patterns of affective/behavioral expression. Most of these, yes, are some of the various lines (which is why you can have a musical prodigy or autistic savant, etc.)

Facial recognition has long been recognized as a distinct ability that some people have -or have to acute degrees- but to be able to match it from different angles at different ages, etc. is truly a savant like ability. It reminds me of a musical savant I once saw who not only listened to a complicated piece of classical music once and then played it by ear on the piano, but was able to transform it into variations (one of the most complex musical tasks) and then variations based upon different composers various styles (e.g. Beethoven, Mozart-even more complicated, and probably the most complex musical task imaginable. Most musicians just can not do any of those.)

But it is also true that facial recognition, like photographic memory in many cases, is almost just a novelty. There's never been any widespread and culturally valued use of the ability. Photographic memory, many times just offers entertainment -e.g. this guy knows everybody's number in the phone book.

Anyway, I've been wanting to say that the recall ability Ken says he has for the things he's read, I find fascinating, because it does ring similar to abilities associated with the other intelligences. In fact, much evidence points to the fact that each intelligence has its own independent memory system, and we do know that the brain has multiple memory systems (I'm not sure if everyone realizes this -there is no one, single memory.) But it is also true that the understanding is usually part and parcel to the memory, and/or recognition to begin with. You will hear artists, and other individuals for example, say this-I understand x, etc. (Along with, I don't know why, I just do. And this is basically the pattern re-cognition of whatever type.)

Re: Ken Wilber: Idiot Savant or Just an Idiot?

http://eugene.gaia.com — Sun, 01 Apr 2007 17:54:43 GMT

Isn't Turqoise cognition characterized by pattern recognition in the first place? I'm not sure if I would ascribe Ken's ability to a special typology. It can easily fall under a line and/or level development as well.

Re: Ken Wilber: Idiot Savant or Just an Idiot?

http://gwizazz.gaia.com — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 19:21:42 GMT

okay .

Re: Ken Wilber: Idiot Savant or Just an Idiot?

http://aqalicious.gaia.com — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 17:34:53 GMT

Timelody: So gwizazz, could you tell us some of the things you are doing? When you're not participating here what do you do?

Your profile doesn't say much after -“I tend to think a lot about a lot of things”

~~~~~~~~~

That would be a great topic to explore in a new thread on the Introduce Yourself board. :) I encourage all zaadzafarians to introduce yourself to the assembled multitude.

arthur

Re: Ken Wilber: Idiot Savant or Just an Idiot?

http://timelody.gaia.com — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 16:37:53 GMT

So gwizazz, could you tell us some of the things you are doing? When you're not participating here what do you do?

Your profile doesn't say much after -"I tend to think a lot about a lot of things"

Re: Ken Wilber: Idiot Savant or Just an Idiot?

http://gwizazz.gaia.com — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 05:06:14 GMT

So much for Ken's supposed retention OR understanding... Perhaps the whole idea of "the other(s)" in relation to quadrants, levels, lines, states, etc. needs to be looked at as well? How about we just scrap the map and breathe a little deeper? Doesn't everything seem to go better with a deep set of lungs anyway? Perhaps the interdimensional complexity of the map has too much room for misinterpretation which seems to be resulting in unnecessary mind masturbation? A new way to keep the smart but emotionally dysfunctional geeks busy so that they don't blow up the world? For example, what do you think that Arthur might be doing if he didn't have this place? Might this be the reason for I-I being in trouble? Too much thinking and not enough DOING? Hey, what if they started charging 10 cents per post? You gotta pay to play (or think out loud)? .

Re: Ken Wilber: Idiot Savant or Just an Idiot?

http://mqs.gaia.com — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 05:01:02 GMT

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Re: Ken Wilber: Idiot Savant or Just an Idiot?

http://transcend-include.gaia.com — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 04:33:57 GMT

You know, finding out that things weren't going so well at I-I was nothing compared to this. Ken gets THHGTTG wrong???I'm shattered. I'm going to give up on this whole thing and start smoking again.

Liz

Re: Ken Wilber: Idiot Savant or Just an Idiot?

http://coolmel.gaia.com — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 04:16:11 GMT

"Idiot Savant or Just an Idiot?"

i don't know. die hard fans of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy would probably think of KW as an idiot. can't blame 'em. check this for context :)

Ken Wilber and The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Re: Ken Wilber: Idiot Savant or Just an Idiot?

http://maryw.gaia.com — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 03:43:24 GMT

Another reason for the small 'i' in SDi could be so that it's not confused with SDI -- or Stategic Defense Initiative -- the so-called "Star Wars" U.S. missile-defense plan first concocted during the Reagan administration.

Re: Ken Wilber: Idiot Savant or Just an Idiot?

http://timelody.gaia.com — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 03:33:06 GMT

I think that's just a branding choice for SD. SD is its own entity, SDi a particular application.

Re: Ken Wilber: Idiot Savant or Just an Idiot?

http://transcend-include.gaia.com — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 03:09:46 GMT

Excellent typo, dude: THE MAP IS NOT THE TERRORTORY

Don't know why about the "i." This falls under "minutiae" in my poor overworked brain and gets tossed out with the recycling.

Liz

Re: Ken Wilber: Idiot Savant or Just an Idiot?

http://gwizazz.gaia.com — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:59:58 GMT

Okay, all together now... THE MAP IS NOT THE TERRORTORY Yes, the "map" is incredible and I commend Ken for promoting it. This puts KW high on my list of integral intellectual facilitators along with Bucky Fuller, Ayn Rand, Gurdjieff, Krishnamurti, David Bohm, William McDonough, etc. By the way, why does "integral" have a lower case "i" in "Spiral Dynamics integral (SDi)"? .

Re: Ken Wilber: Idiot Savant or Just an Idiot?

http://timelody.gaia.com — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:57:48 GMT

I would like to know where the research is that "turquoise" would simply never do such a thing. Because, the actual evidence, based upon extensive research, says something contrary.

Teal has the ability to unleash anger and use it constructively ( i.e. to change a situation for the better) and turquoise knows very well how to use sarcasm.

Green, however, believes that it can be "above" both of these things.

Green also mistakes "turquoise" for the utopian ideals of green.

Re: Ken Wilber: Idiot Savant or Just an Idiot?

http://transcend-include.gaia.com — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:38:36 GMT

I don't think he was trying to instruct or use skillful means when he called people "idiots." I think he was just trying to be funny (and succeeded, for me). Nobody can stand to have their every conversation deconstructed and sound turquoise all the time. I don't hold his spoken word to that standard, anyway.

He might be a complete asshole, but it doesn't detract from his map, IMO.

Liz

Re: Ken Wilber: Idiot Savant or Just an Idiot?

http://gwizazz.gaia.com — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 02:32:12 GMT

> “the thousands and thousands of books that I've read, > for some reason I retain the information. It's not a > photographic memory, because that's kinda useless, > you have to understand the information. For some > reason I retain the understanding of the information > and so I can recall it.” Pray tell why YOU think or agree that a photographic memory would be useless? Once something is in the brain then it can be processed for understanding at what ever point the user chooses to process it. This process can be ongoing over the course of an entire lifetime. It sounds like one or both of the two of you is/are being argumentative (non-specific or generalized assumed correctness). How can the individual person be sure that they accurately understood the information in the first place? Is there the assumption of immediate understanding? Therefore to "retain" that potentially misunderstood information in the first place would appear to be useless? .

Re: Ken Wilber: Idiot Savant or Just an Idiot?

http://aqalicious.gaia.com — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 01:57:36 GMT

Regardless of one's opinions or the current research on "photographic memory" what Ken actually said in the piece above (emphasis added) was

"the thousands and thousands of books that I've read, for some reason I retain the information. It's not a photographic memory, because that's kinda useless, you have to understand the information. For some reason I retain the understanding of the information and so I can recall it."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

spiral on,
arthur

Re: Ken Wilber: Idiot Savant or Just an Idiot?

http://gwizazz.gaia.com — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 01:51:12 GMT

> There's no reason that KW couldn't be an absolute moron > at, say, playing soccer or interpersonal skills or knitting. > But what, specifically, are you referring to? When he calls people (his critics?) morons or idiots for example. Such name-calling adds zero useful information to the overall turquoise dialogue. That kind of behavior de-motivates the higher levels/tiers from wanting to communicate with him. I gues that indigo/coral would have already transcended him? Hey, where is the preview feature? I can't re-edit my post fast enough before Liz responds to it! Is that on the style bar also? P.S. I notice that repetitive coding can be copied by selecting/highlighting it, holding down the option key, and dragging it to the next location thus making a copy of it. A plus + sign replaces the arrow pointer during this process. .

Re: Ken Wilber: Idiot Savant or Just an Idiot?

http://transcend-include.gaia.com — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 01:37:59 GMT

Try using Firefox for the Mac. Safari doesn't display the toolbar properly. You can, of course, just write it in code if you want to bother. But I prefer Firefox anyway. Sometimes pictures don't display properly on Firefox (on a Mac-it seems to wokrk perfectly on a PC-Arrr!), which sucks. I toggle back and forth when that happens.

As for photographic memory, I'm unconvinced. I don't believe that everyone's brain works that way, and I'd want to see some sort of supporting references for that. Brain research is a tricky business and the conclusions reached 20, 10 or even 5 years ago may be considered invalid today.

There's no reason that KW couldn't be an absolute moron at, say, playing soccer or interpersonal skills or knitting. But what ,specifically, are you referring to?

Liz

Re: Ken Wilber: Idiot Savant or Just an Idiot?

http://gwizazz.gaia.com — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 01:28:03 GMT

Back to the idiot thing... Would Ken be considered an idiot by certain dimensions of conscious awareness if he continues to display lower level/tier traits (seeming reactivity)? Even if he is doing so simply as a means of offering color (drama) to his expression so that people can taste it better? Then, if people get triggered by it does it really server the desired purpose? Supposed intentional lessons or uncontrolled reactivity? By the way, I am not impressed with the photographic memory thing as I believe that we ALL have that ability if we pay attention to it. That is simply how the brain works normally, it literally takes pictures of every event, experience, feeling, etc. over the course of our entire lives. The fact that some people can't focus upon what is actually useful due to the enormity of input may be the reason that many people tune out that ability. Perhaps this is why some of the greater geniuses border (or cross the border) to insanity? .