Gaia: The Integral Pod - Water Cooler - Shed some light on Integral Relationships, please!

Re: Shed some light on Integral Relationships, please!

http://ewantownhead.gaia.com — Fri, 11 May 2007 11:07:47 GMT

Hi Pelle, Gitanjali, Michael

Totally on board with everything thats been said. This is how I see it too, but you have all articulated it much more fully and widely that I was concieving of it :)

Gitanjali -

And the anger of women had a gift in it. I'm not sure that without rage we could have broken through that particular trance. It has a huge gift for the masculine.

Absolutely, its just skillful means - it takes a big bloody hammer to break down a thick old wall.

In "patriarchy" for want of a better term, both women ane men are deeply abused. The visceral masculine does not have a place in it. It is cut out of the ideal or accepted male image.. men are sent to wars for purposes that dont hold water...or a driven by special interests...men are turned into "corporate man", they need to listen to the old stultified king.

And it can't be any other way, right? Its just part of societal and sexual evolution though the spiral.

Organised amber civilisation wouldn't have succeeded if they couldn't conscript the men to go and bash all the small nasty magenta/red tribes. Which is the most skillful thing to do, in those circumstances.

Women's anger was followed by men's anger. Men's anger in its fuller forms went beyond being angry with women to looking at the loss of the "wild man" the loss of the instinctual man...(your father Ewan?)

Haha, that was definitely him 10-15 years ago...antlers on head round the fire and the works :) Though I'm unsure how much he'd say anger played a part...I'd have to ask him about that. But he didn't get stuck there, unlike my mum with feminism.

Basically if you change one partner in a relationship the other one has to change.

So yay to women's anger for contributing to catalysing men's consciousness.

Beautifully put, I'd never thought of it that way, beautiful, beautiful!

Buuut I still think there's a lot of negativity in the male female dynamic, and its now not just a western concern, many non-western countries bring in their own profoundly biased dynamics as well, it aint over till the fat lady sings and the fat man sings ;)

Yes, there is, and always will be - the world is imperfect. But we're getting steadilly better :)

Ewan

Re: Shed some light on Integral Relationships, please!

Fri, 11 May 2007 09:25:04 GMT

Hi Ewan,

Its a fair question: do women have to go through that entrenched angry phase?

At core, women need to go through a "chakra 3" structure. They need to learn self-esteem, self assertion, self respect, independence, autonomy, boundaries, personal power. So the gateway is a woman who identifies with her independence. Not a woman who identifies with her angry independence.

It just so happpened that in the world as it was, this seeking of independence and autonomy manifested as they did. In veyr angry women who identified for decades with rigid positions.

When I say given the world as it was, I'm talking about all of it, not a narrow definition of "patriarchy". I'm talking about all quadrants : the wars, and social systems we had, with all their imbalances; the relationships and structures between men and women in the we-space, the development within each psyche, and our biology and our responses to it.

In fact patriarchy is a misnomer. It was a "negative father negative mother" complex. ALways both sides.

And the anger of women had a gift in it. I'm not sure that without rage we could have broken through that particular trance. It has a huge gift for the masculine.

In "patriarchy" for want of a better term, both women ane men are deeply abused. The visceral masculine does not have a place in it. It is cut out of the ideal or accepted male image.. men are sent to wars for purposes that dont hold water...or a driven by special interests...men are turned into "corporate man", they need to listen to the old stultified king.

Women's anger was followed by men's anger. Men's anger in its fuller forms went beyond being angry with women to looking at the loss of the "wild man" the loss of the instinctual man...(your father Ewan?)

I can see that feminism triggered this....as did the fight on many other kinds of oppression.

Basically if you change one partner in a relationship the other one has to change.

So yay to women's anger for contributing to catalysing men's consciousness.

And then I hear you Ewan, Michael. It can be pretty bloody and pretty horrible too.

I agree with what Pelle said. Its a different world now and the stage doesnt have be the same in details as what your mom went through. Its different vertically as Pelle notes, changing nature of higher stages are influenceing lower. And its different horizontally. Men are different. All 4 qudrants are different.

Buuut I still think there's a lot of negativity in the male female dynamic, and its now not just a western concern, many non-western countries bring in their own profoundly biased dynamics as well, it aint over till the fat lady sings and the fat man sings ;)

Gitanjali

Re: Shed some light on Integral Relationships, please!

Fri, 11 May 2007 09:00:45 GMT

Markus

When I was with my last boyfriend (who I feel was orange-green?) I felt I had to trust the process and stay until I or he didnt want to. At some point it emerged for me and for him that we were done. In my case that is what the process led to. And it was so important for me to stay until I didnt want to stay. In that time I built up energy inside that I didnt have before. Opened parts of me i hadnt before. I wont reduce the relationship to saying its purpose was to teach me those things and it is blessing that that was one outcome.

So yes, I'm for trusting the process...and to do that means to me to be very vigilant. And even being so vigilant I will self-decieve until I dont :)

Gitanjali

Re: Shed some light on Integral Relationships, please!

Fri, 11 May 2007 04:46:23 GMT

Good morning!

I find your post all very helpful and thought provoking, thanks. Will try to respond to some of them here...

Pelle:I think one question you have to ask yourself is if you still want to love and be with your woman when she enters green... or if she instead stays in amber/orange for the rest of her life. Not an easy question and I don't think there is a "correct integral answer" for that. Even at this new level we do not escape our personal choices...

It seems to me that Green is the big scarecrow for 2^nd tier consciousness. I had my own little problems with it in the past, but then there is always a healthy and an unhealthy aspect to it, right? Unconditional love, I think you will agree, is the most efficacious catalyst for growth and although the outcome is not guaranteed, it can help the transit to higher stages greatly. That's my best shot.

I also want to address the part of seeing God in everyone or seeing the love of God in everyone. Sure, we can learn to do this more and more. But isn't this something impersonal? In other words if we learn to do this don't we see it in everyone, hence making it obsolete as a criterion for choosing our life partner?

To see the love of God in everyone/everything more and more is in my opinion not only a consequence or by-product of evolution per se but also the driving force that makes me want to evolve more and more. And I agree with you that it is not a criterion for choosing a life partner. When you already have a partner however, this practice can help you to come from your Higher/Highest Self, therefore bringing more light to the dark spots. What do you think?

Colin: Loving authentically does not mean that you don't engage in conversations that call on you both to grow, evolve and mature.

Yes, I'm learning a lot from this relationship and it's predominantly on an emotional level. Having almost died of emotional starvation in the past, this is like the New Jerusalem for me.

Michael...Also, there are annoyances which come from this step down. The resident "lower" is working out things that you may have already transcended. The temptation is to interrupt from impatience and try to fix the situation. Instead, just listening and providing authentic indication that you are "hearing" them allows you to investigate the workings of your own mind when "annoyed."

I don't know, but I don't think there is really a stepping down...at least not in this case. I noticed this when I interact with red, orange and green to some extend. I do spend more time with my partner than I've ever done within a relationship and I suppose a stepping up and down would be an exhausting endeavour. The truth though is that it's actually energizing me. I still marvel about it all! J

The real problem for me is the practical side I realize now. There is no way we can move to my country without getting married. MARRIED fCs! gulp Thanks Amber!

My feeling is that peoples development is largely unpredictable and so is the relationship we are in, be it an inter-meme relationship or an equal integral one. I guess sometimes we just have to let go of all the what-ifs and just trust the process. There is no point in avoiding pain at all cost, as it is part of life too.

May love prosper for all of us!

Markus

Re: Shed some light on Integral Relationships, please!

http://mqs.gaia.com — Thu, 10 May 2007 19:12:23 GMT

Pelle,

"I believe that when a higher level has been formed, the content from the higher level informs the lower levels. For example here in Sweden even orange people are very well informed about environmental issues, feminism, etc since there are so many green ideas floating around. In the same way I do believe that when a substantial part of the population reaches teal (and that might happen within a decade or two in Sweden, Holland, etc), the teal content will leak downwards and make the green stage healthier and less aggressive etc."

Amen to this, the sooner the better. Maybe we here in Amerika can then learn this too.

There will also be less need to be aggressive when some walls have been kicked down and new morphogenetic grooves are in place."

"new morphogenetic grooves" Yikes! I can feel 'em creepin' up on me!

yer pal,
Michael

Re: Shed some light on Integral Relationships, please!

http://pelle.gaia.com — Thu, 10 May 2007 18:07:46 GMT

Ewan:
Will all women really have to go through an angry woman phase?

LMAO here...

The question has great relevance though, even beyond the caricature.
I don't think women will have to go through feminism in quite the same gruesome way in the future, nor will men have to put up with women being angry for 30 years...

Just look how swiftly orange can be passed through by teenagers today, and without polluting the world, etc.

I believe that when a higher level has been formed, the content from the higher level informs the lower levels. For example here in Sweden even orange people are very well informed about environmental issues, feminism, etc since there are so many green ideas floating around. In the same way I do believe that when a substantial part of the population reaches teal (and that might happen within a decade or two in Sweden, Holland, etc), the teal content will leak downwards and make the green stage healthier and less aggressive etc.

There will also be less need to be aggressive when some walls have been kicked down and new morphogenetic grooves are in place.

my 2 cents

peace
pelle

Re: Shed some light on Integral Relationships, please!

http://ewantownhead.gaia.com — Thu, 10 May 2007 15:39:55 GMT

Hi Gitanjali

Yes! It's all a question of perspectives isn't it.

I obviously cannot speak from inner experience of feminism, I have only seen it from the outside, and also somewhat from above. Us youngsters are standing on the shoulders of the green warriors who secured us all this amazing freedom we have. I can remeber being about 13 or 14, and asking my mum about feminism - I simply couldn't understand the concept, if your goal is equal rights, why priviledge the feminine side? Surely it should be equalism, not feminism? Naive, yes, but also a sign that her battles had already freed me and my generation to a huge extent.

Nearly all my experience of feminism is women who are so entreched in their views - they simply wont hear anything else. They are still trying to fight the same corner, that while totally necessary 20-30 years ago... well its just damaging now. Although, coincidentally, have just been chatting to an autralian work collegue of mine about aussie politics/culture, sounds like its not quite as far along down there as it is here in the UK - still a lot of genuine sexism about, is that right?

Maybe we're not being specific enough about our definition of feminism, but do you really think that that kind of feminism really *has* to be included before a woman trancends, and moves into more integral forms of womanhood? Will all women really have to go through an angry woman phase? I'm caracaturing here of course, but the vast majority of feminism, at least that I see, is pretty mean green - which is agressively blocking the gate to integral femininity.

I guess this is where it really depends on what we mean by feminism. Maybe your referring to a different concept? But if all women really do have to go through 'mainstraem' feminism...jeez, thats a real fucker - for all involved.

Ewan

Re: Shed some light on Integral Relationships, please!

Thu, 10 May 2007 13:43:04 GMT

Hi Ewan

In my view it is ironic...and it isnt! Because as you would know your mum was one step closer to the deep authentic feminine than any woman who is has not been a feminist. I believe its a step that no woman can avoid.

Sure, the allure of femininity shows up more in the old fashioned kinda woman, but along with that, all the contractions and fear of ego...what I believe you want is the real endless femininity at the core of every feminine being, and the feminist stands at one of the gates that must be passed to access Her.

I dont feel i'm saying anything new to you at all, but I felt like saying it anyway :)

XXX Gitanjali

PS: your parents sound pretty cool Mr Ewan.

Re: Shed some light on Integral Relationships, please!

Thu, 10 May 2007 10:59:28 GMT

Hi all!

I've read your posts and I'm very grateful to you all. I will take them home, read them again and ponder some more and then get back to you. There are many aspects of my question and places in my heart I need to explore further.

for Ewan: you are absolutely right, as being born in Italy I can assure you that red wine is an essential ingredient in the ragu' (bolognese), maybe you can present your girlfriend with a shiny new cookbook......ehm, maybe after what happened it's not such a good idea after all... :-)

M

Re: Shed some light on Integral Relationships, please!

http://ewantownhead.gaia.com — Thu, 10 May 2007 09:07:32 GMT

Hi Gitanjali

Totally!!!...I'm learning...slowly :)

I read Mars and Venus several years ago, and it totally opened my eyes - having a very egalitarian Green feminist mother, the more authentic nature of femininity was hidden from me. Isn't that ironic...having a feminst for a mum meant I totally missed out on real femininity!! haha. And then getting into Deida recently has jacked me up seriously. But all the translation is stll filtering through...

Ewan

Re: Shed some light on Integral Relationships, please!

http://mqs.gaia.com — Thu, 10 May 2007 03:51:49 GMT

Dear Ones,

Markus,

I believe that it is a mistake for me to leave a perspective behind as "transcended" and no longer valuable. The "color" thing, being a bit different than "perspective" can be transported from your highest perspective "state" back into the "lower" perspective. This is to say that you can enjoy your relationship with your coming-into-green partner by relating to her within the perspective space she is comfortable with, while retaining your "color."

In reverse, woe unto the person who has a 4p or 5p perspective set with magenta or red ambitions. Difficult, but not impossible. When we back into a "incorporated" perspective, we do not necessarily need to emulate the "color" typically associated with the perspective.

I can assume that you do not spend all of your time, or even most of your time with this person, even if you are deeply in love - so there is time in life to manifest/interact from your highest perspective and color during some of your day. It is not condescending to "drop to a lower perspective" to maintain the relationship as love flowers everywhere. Indeed, such return to that perspective will help show us what we might have left behind to soon. Also, listening is easier, the resident in the lower gets more chance to debrief their lives, and we can listen while quietly manifesting the higher "color" state. This becomes "attraction" not "promotion" and is far more powerful than encouraging them with words and rationales to "hurry up" and get "better." Also, there are annoyances which come from this step down. The resident "lower" is working out things that you may have already transcended. The temptation is to interrupt from impatience and try to fix the situation. Instead, just listening and providing authentic indication that you are "hearing" them allows you to investigate the workings of your own mind when "annoyed." This is gold and can be shared with the other at their perspective level - further attraction not promotion.

Glad to have you with us.

Yer pal,
Michael

Re: Shed some light on Integral Relationships, please!

Wed, 09 May 2007 22:19:50 GMT

And Ewan...i cant resist saying, while I agree with your recipe, it sounds like a case of deeper tasting pasta or deeper tasting we space - you choose! ;)

Re: Shed some light on Integral Relationships, please!

Wed, 09 May 2007 22:16:57 GMT

MArkus

Welcome to the pod!

Its a classic and poignant question. I've been there too.

I see some great answers on the pod...right now I want to add...one aspect

that as we move into integral consciousness I find that one of the desires that becomes bigger is the need to give to others, for our feminine part to flow and our masculine part to deepen the presence of the moment for the other to go deeper - and beyond the polarity - just to give...

If you relate to that, and if when you give, the woman you are with is mostly unable to receive your gift, because you are at different stations, you may find you will at some point want to give to someoone else. Maybe the soul is like that? It must give. And it wants to give where it is most effective? I dont know for sure...but that occurs.

If you are asking the question now, you are not at that point yet ofcourse...

And there is much to explore as others here suggest - the reasons why you may be together how your shadows intertwine..where your masculien and feminine lines of development are....the amber-turquoise dynamic...and so on...

Gitanjali

Re: Shed some light on Integral Relationships, please!

http://undercovertranssexual.gaia.com — Wed, 09 May 2007 19:58:24 GMT

Hey Markus! Welcome to I-I/Zaadz!

Thanks for starting this thread. This is a topic that has been mulled over before in this integral crowd. I always appreciate it resurfacing, though.

I struggled with this issue for nearly a year. I felt as though I literally catapulted into second tier (though I care little at this point about that distinction, in general, as it can pollute conversations and connections). As a result, I felt that I now shared very little in common with my wife. It was ALL about integral; ALL about Spirit.

It seems now that I fell into a trap that is common among serious spiritual aspirants: judging others who don't "get it" and, separately, feeling like the differences between us were insurmountable. Now I know that neither of those is true.

My wife is mostly healthy Green at this point in her evolution. (Thank God she doesn't go on rants about equality, etc.!) We've discovered a groove that works for us.

Ultimately, though, the advice that Ewan suggested is what has worked for me: Love your partner for who she or he IS. And, if you can't, seriously consider moving on.

"Deida says very strongly: if you can't love her for who she is, truley and authentically...end it. He is so awesome at just laying it out...super-masculine...there it is...get real and deal with it."

I had never heard this, and I don't know much about Deida other than what I've picked up through I-I and this pod. This strikes me as a core truth about relationships, in general. Though one distinction: Loving authentically does not mean that you don't engage in conversations that call on you both to grow, evolve and mature. For me, that is a basic requirement of any authentic relationship I'm in.

<<Waving to Frans, Liz, Pelle and Arthur!>>

Re: Shed some light on Integral Relationships, please!

http://ewantownhead.gaia.com — Wed, 09 May 2007 18:27:50 GMT

I did, I certainly did.

Though I still maintain its better with red wine...oh wait...fuck, just did it again.

;)

Re: Shed some light on Integral Relationships, please!

http://transcend-include.gaia.com — Wed, 09 May 2007 17:42:59 GMT

And for God's sake, NEVER criticize her cooking! (Ewan, I hope you learned your lesson. You might as well have told her she's incompetent at taking care of your needs! LOL)

Having already responded on the other pod, what comes to mind for me now is that you absolutely should try to have a relationship with her wherever you are. Even when a relationship doesn't turn out to be the most wonderful, you learn from it every time. I don't think it's ever a waste of time to love someone. It's good practice.

Liz

Re: Shed some light on Integral Relationships, please!

http://aqalicious.gaia.com — Wed, 09 May 2007 17:26:52 GMT

Re: Shed some light on Integral Relationships, please!

http://ewantownhead.gaia.com — Wed, 09 May 2007 15:11:51 GMT

Hi Markus

Is a mature and long-lasting relationship only possible between people on the same altitude? With the same thirst for heights?

As Pelle has said, definitley not. Its very possible to have a full and loving relationship between people of different altitudes. But there are I think, added factors to be aware of.

I'm in a relationship with someone who is, I amber/ORANGE. She has some wonderful amber qualities whi has taught me a lot - was really resonating with some of the stuff you were saying Pelle. However, she also has some rather unhealthy amber qualities - not through fault of her own...its straight from her mum. But I must say, we have issues with it, we're working on it, but it can be tough.

I think the 'absolute' nature of amber, can be very frustrating to teal, when used as a defence. We had a bit of a spat this week when I, quite innocently enquired why she wasn't putting red wine in our bollognese! It wasn't a interogation, I was just curious about her different tastes - she just slammed the door down on me "because thats not what I do - don't question it". But as I said, I think thats her unhealthy amber - you said your own partner was pretty healthy amber, though I think thats also a particular dynamic that I'm personally struggling through...I'll elaborate, it may resonate...

Its part of a trend that reading Way of the Superior Man by David Deida gave me a kick up the arse about. If you havn't read it, I reccomend buying it right now...its bloody amazing. I'll try and paraphrase...

If you get frustrated and annoyed by your feminine woman because you kind of wish she thought more like you - you wnat to help her grow, see things in a wider context like you do...forget it!!! That is not the love you should ever give to your woman...thats what a masculine man wants...not a feminine woman.

You should support and love your woman to be as fully expression of her feminine essense as is possible. Trying to cahnge her, however skillfully, is not on! If you already do this, and she still annoys you...its proably time to end the relationship...don't f*ck about.

I don't know how much of this dynamic is at work in your relationship, perhpas none, perhaps some...but its maybe something to think about anyway. Deida says very strongly: if you can't love her for who she is, truley and authentically...end it. He is so awesome at just laying it out...super-masculine...there it is...get real and deal with it.

Hope this is of some help...relationships are complicated enough, when you start integrally analysing them, jeez it can muddle you up...I'm speaking from experience. But at the most fundamental level, its about love - unconditional love - thats what the feminine needs.

Ewan

Re: Shed some light on Integral Relationships, please!

http://pelle.gaia.com — Wed, 09 May 2007 14:05:21 GMT

Very interesting topic Markus, and thank you for courageously sharing parts of your own life.

I believe that an integral person and an amber one are a good fit in some ways. As integralites we often look down on green and want to escape from green, so not having to deal with all the green crap can feel like a relief. When entering integral we are struggling to hold on to the realization that some truths are more true than others, everything isn't relative etc. Amber will support us nicely in doing that, at least it won't interfere half as much as a vocal green partner would.

Another perspective is that at amber levels people aren't afraid to act out their polarity, if their polarity matches their sex. In other words an amber woman will be fine about being very feminine, and if her true polarity is feminine then she will be very comfortable with it (I'm guessing that this is your experience). A green woman would instead be much more preoccupied with exploring masculinity, whether that is truly a big part of her or not. So in that sense an amber woman can also be a "comfortable" fit for a man who has recently entered Integral consciousness. I know that I myself had a definite tendency for choosing amber-ish women instead of green ones when I entered Integral. I just couldn't stand all the greenness anymore so I moved away from it. Nowadays I'm starting to think that I could never settle for less than a yummy integral woman, and I'm sorry if that's not what you want to hear!

I think one question you have to ask yourself is if you still want to love and be with your woman when she enters green... or if she instead stays in amber/orange for the rest of her life. Not an easy question and I don't think there is a "correct integral answer" for that. Even at this new level we do not escape our personal choices...

I also want to address the part of seeing God in everyone or seeing the love of God in everyone. Sure, we can learn to do this more and more. But isn't this something impersonal? In other words if we learn to do this don't we see it in everyone, hence making it obsolete as a criterion for choosing our life partner?
My thoughts are that if you feel a deep connection to the persons soul, which is beyond the personality but still something personal and with connections to the personality, then that could definitely be a reason to want to stay with that person for the rest of your life. In other words a subtle level connection (soul) can be deep and personal, making it easy to accept differences in Ego development. Seeing the love of God in everyone (causal or non-dual) is instead something more impersonal, and using that to stay with another person could simply represent a way of clinging to something/someone that one knows will never last.

These are only my own perspectives, and they may or may not be useful to you at this time. The only real advice I can give you is to keep on connecting more and more to your core (your authentic personality, and your soul). The answer is in there, not out there :)

peace
pelle

Re: Shed some light on Integral Relationships, please!

http://onthetrail.gaia.com — Wed, 09 May 2007 13:43:03 GMT

Hi Markus, The higher up the ladder you get, the easier it becomes to love. This is because you identify less with the object of your love and projection onto that person becomes more transparent to yourself. If your consciousness is predominantely at second tier levels you will also have an easier time witnessing the harsh adjustments your lady friend will necessarily have to go through when moving to the West - and allowing her to go through her changes at her own pace without judging her. Of course you can't control how she will change and if her love for you will change - just accept what is and know that love (not what we normally call love, but the real thing) is always what we are, what we experience and what we grow towards. Frans