Gaia: The Integral Pod - Media Musings - Integral Shamanism (transcript)

Re: Integral Shamanism (transcript)

http://aqalicious.gaia.com — Sat, 16 Jun 2007 20:56:07 GMT

This was just posted in the BBG's blog. coolness. :)

arthur

Re: Integral Shamanism (transcript)

http://aqalicious.gaia.com — Wed, 23 May 2007 17:41:57 GMT

Re: Integral Shamanism (transcript)

http://rickholden76.gaia.com — Wed, 23 May 2007 17:06:17 GMT

I thought ya'll would like this. I think I've been harsh in my critique of modern shamanistic practice for the purpose of consciousness development. So, I did some research on the subject, and it seems like an interesting field. Here's an article from the journal, The Anthropology of Consciousness, titled, "Shamanism and Altered States of Consciousness."
I'm just posting the conclusion, because it is a 36 page paper. The conclusion of the researchers is basically that not all ASC are the same, nor have the same effect or purpose. And that, like Wilber would say, the level of consciousness has to be known before hand, in order to properly determine the ASC for the individual. That is ASC or empirically measurable brain activity is dependent upon the current consciouness of the individual, and can't see seen as a one size fits all model.

"

Conclusions and Relationship to Psychology

Physiological Aspects of ASCs

Methods of inducing ASCs have been correlated to

some extent with physiological indicators (Winkelman

1986), especially with regard to EEG and the autonomic

nervous system. However, as Locke and Kelly (1985) point

out, there have been no reports in the anthropological

literature of direct recording of covert physiological

indicators (EEG, EKG, EMG, skin potentials, etc.) in nonwestern

field settings (but see Green and Green 1977 for a

report of their preliminary work with several yogis in India).

Consequently, much of the theoretical explanation

concerning ASCs in non-western settings has been

inferential in nature (not yet subjected to empirical

verification). The importance of this point can be illustrated

through a brief review of EEG research on meditative states.

In 1955, Das and Gastaut reported strong beta activity of

high amplitude during the meditative states of practitioners

of Kriya Yoga. These results were not verified in later EEG

studies of meditative states: Anand, Chhina and Singh

(1961) in studying Baj Yogis experiencing the samadhi state

found an increase in amplitude of alpha waves which

persisted despite strong experimental stimuli such as bright

lights, loud noises, etc. Kasamatsu and Hirai (1972) studying

disciples of Rinzfli and Soto Zen also found an increase in

alpha rhythm amplitude (as well as rhythmical trains of theta

waves among the most experienced practitioners) during

their meditative states. Similarly, practitioners of

Transcendental Meditation were found to exhibit an increase

in alpha rhythm amplitude, short theta periods, and, in the

most advanced subjects, some beta waves (Banquet 1978).

[See also Schuman (1980) for a comprehensive review of

physiological models of meditative states.) Although most

reports have indicated an increase in alpha rhythm, it would

seem that this is not necessarily at the expense of other types

of brainwave activity. It can be deduced from these studies

that not all meditative traditions produce the same

physiological "state," so much so that Pelletier (1978) has

argued that each state is consistent with the philosophy of its

respective meditative tradition. The significance of this

point is not to be underestimated, especially in light of the

plethora of mechanistic models for categorizing ASCs.

Johnson (1970:501) has so stated:

EEG and autonomic data cannot be used to define

states of consciousness; the state of consciousness of

the subject must first be known before the

physiological significance and possible behavioral

meaning can be inferred.

Given the fact that culturally relevant, individually held

purposes (philosophy or mental constructions) at least

partially determine physiological correlates of ASCs, it would

seem imprudent, given the current lack of empirical data, to

attempt to equate one particular type of ASC with another,

or to "explain" one type in terms of another, based solely on

(often hypothesized) physiological factors.

Another line of enquiry into physiological aspects of

ASCs has been the production and effect of endorphins on

the body. It is well known that extended periods of strenuous

motor activity can lead to a pain-free state of euphoria

following an initial period of pain and fatigue (Appenzeller, et

al. 1980; Fraioli, et al. 1980). This state has colloquially

come to be known as "runner's high." Prince has

hypothesized that this state may be characteristic of

shamanic trances associated with vigorous motor activities in

the form of dance, and trance phenomena which involve fine

motor tremors (1982:414), as well as analgesia among

Kentucky fire handlers (1982:412). He goes on to further

hypothesize that endorphin-related analgesia and euphoria

may result from purely psychological stress (terror of

impending ego dissolution or other situation of life stress) in

the absence of motor hyperactivity (the "mock hyperstress

hypothesis"). While research into neuroendocrine correlates

of ASCs, both with and without hypermotor activity, may

indeed be fruitful, especially in light of the resurgence of

dissociation theory, it would seem that care must be taken

not to generalize too broadly from one trance state to

another. For example, while trance channels do report

feelings of euphoria and ecstasy, they do not engage in

hypermotor activity as part of their trance induction process,

nor do they report severe psychological stress such as terror of

impending ego dissolution, but rather a harmonious

"blending" of "entity" and practitioner (Hughes 1991).

Winkelman (1986) has attempted to correlate method of

induction, psychophysiological factors and

phenomenological experience, postulating three broad

"entailment chains" or traditions: the "meditative tradition"

10 Anthropology of Consciousness [5(2)]

associated with sleep deprivation, austerities, auditory

driving, fasting, and social isolation; the "shamanic tradition"

associated with sleep, unconsciousness, soul journey, and

excessive motor behavior; and the "mediumistic" or

"possession trance tradition" associated with amnesia,

possession, convulsions, spontaneous onset and excessive

motor behavior. He goes on to hypothesize "a relationship

between temporal lobe syndrome and trance states,

particularly possession" (1986:194). While Winkelman does

indeed find such a statistical relationship, it should be noted

that the data utilized in his analysis are limited to "variables

indicating temporal lobe discharges" as found in the

ethnographic record; as noted above, there are, as yet, no

empirical data, in the form of actual EEGs of practitioners of

possession trance, collected in a non-western field setting.

Some preliminary work has been done with trance channels

in the United States which indicated that even though there

are rather dramatic changes in brainwave activity during the

trance channeling state, the EEGs of the trance channels

were inconsistent with what would have been found if

"temporal lobe syndrome" in the form of petit mal seizures,

psychomotor epilepsy or grand mal seizures were occurring

(Hughes 1990). Further, while trance channeling can be

categorized as a form of possession trance as defined by

Winkelman, i.e., "a trance state interpreted by the culture as

a condition during which the practitioner's own personality is

temporarily displaced by the personality of another entity,"

convulsions, excessive motor behavior, spontaneous onset,

and amnesia are not consistently associated with trance

channeling, although some individuals have reported the

latter two characteristics (Hughes 1991).

While comprehensive theoretical constructs correlating

all lines of inquiry into altered states of consciousness are

certainly academically attractive given the huge variety of

cross-cultural phenomena in this area, it would seem that the

preliminary empirical data seem to defy such neat

categorizations.

Psychopathology

Whether or not altered states of consciousness are

indicative of psychopathology has been a question of much

debate. By definition, ASCs are states of mind which are

different from the individual's normal mode of functioning

(Pelletier 1978). While the dictionary definition of "normal"

is simply "of the usual standard; regular; usual" (Thomdike

Bamhart), in psychology "normal" is defined as "not

mentally ill; sane." It can readily be seen that this rather

simple semantic confusion is indicative of much deeper issues

involving not only normal/abnormal dichotomies

characteristic of Western psychological theories, but also a

fair degree of Western ethnocentrism.

Two basic approaches seem to have emerged with regard

to the psychopathology of ASCs question. The first is

dependent upon cultural relativism, and seeks to assume the

viewpoint (or "worldview") of the specific society to which

the practitioner of the ASC belongs. Adjudications as to

whether behavior is "normal" or "abnormal" are essentially

left up to other members of the practitioner's own society

(Bourguignon 1976/1991). Cultural, and indeed situational,

context is deemed of primary importance with regard to the

validity of judgments regarding psychopathology.

The second approach has been to apply Western

psychological and psychiatric concepts of psychopathology

directly to behavior observed in other cultures. In these

terms various altered states, in keeping with the normal/

abnormal dichotomy, have been labeled hysteric, neurotic

and psychotic. Noll has pointed out that the issue of

psychopathology "pivots on issues of volition, purposefulness

of behavior, and consciousness of thoughts and behavior"

[the amnesia question] (1989:48), but it should be noted that

these criteria are in themselves basic to Western concepts of

mental health.

We can note the problem of psychopathology with

respect to the shaman. The behavior of the shaman is

marked by ecstasy, trance, possessed voices, and description

of visionary entities and domains. While most of these terms

are in a continual process of re-definition by social scientists

and psychologists, there has always been a tendency to regard

all such behavior as simply pathological. What precise type

of psychopathology has been a matter of debate: the

principal favorites have been hysteria and schizophrenia.

Hysteria falls under the general heading of the dissociative

disorders, which would include amnesiac episodes, multiple

personality and disorders of depersonalization. The

distinctive criteria of the dissociative disorders are sudden

and temporal alteration in consciousness, or in the sense of

personal identity, or sometimes in bizarre motor behavior.

The possession aspects of the shaman are thus interpreted as

temporary alterations in identity; the trance itself as a shift in

consciousness; and the physical actions of the shaman, which

are often violent and excitable, as representing the bizarre

motor behavior of hysteria. The so-called flight of the

shaman, in which he represents himself as travelling to

mythical domains to retrieve the soul of his patient, is simply

interpreted as hallucinations: images and representations

which are interpreted as being dissociated from other

perceptual processes and which are mistaken by the shaman

for real experiences. The very dramatic quality of the

shaman, which is performed ritually with an audience, is seen

as a kind of histrionic personality disorder.

When schizophrenia is invoked for labelling the

psychological behavior of the shaman, attention is drawn to

the symptoms of delusion and thought disorder which the

shaman is believed to have. However, there is one dominant

feature of the schizophrenic which is lacking with the

shaman, namely that of impaired social relationships. This is

not only completely lacking in shamans, but the role of the

shaman is highly valued in his or her society, and there is no

estrangement between this figure and the group which he or

she serves.

Finally, the fact of cultural contextualization, or the

cultural embedding of an ASC, might in itself be an

indicator as to whether or not the altered state is

pathological in nature (Peters and Price Williams 1980); the

issue here is whether the behavior is purely idiosyncratic, or

June 1994 ^Shamanism and Altered States of Consciousness 11

learned by following a cultural model (Bourguignon 1976/

1991). While issues of psychopathology certainly have not

been resolved, it is perhaps most fruitful at this point to

simply note that while individual practitioners of various

ASCs may or may not exhibit (varying) degrees of

psychopathology, there is no indication that altered states of

consciousness in and of themselves are inherently

pathological.

Psychotherapeutic Functions

While altered states and shamanistic practices have

sometimes been labelled pathological by Western standards,

the very opposite has been thought by indigenous peoples

and also by some Western scholars; i.e. that the process is one

of healing, both in physical terms and psychotherapeutically.

We will illustrate the healing function of altered states of

consciousness with respect to particular types.

Dreams

Healing through the power of dreams goes back a long

way in history: the ancient practice of incubation has been

recorded as far back as 3000 B.C., associated with the temples

dedicated to the mythical figure of Asclepius, in the area of

Greece and nearby Mediterranean regions. The basic

practice in incubation was for a sick person to spend a night

in a sacred spot—it could be a shrine, a temple, a church or a

sanctuary. While he was asleep, the god associated with the

place would visit the dreamer and apply a cure. In Greek

times the dream figure would be Asclepius himself. When

these areas became Christianized, the dream figure would be

a saint, as in the case of St. Anthony who visited dreamers in

the crypt of the cathedral in Amalfi, southern Italy. This

practice, in this general area, was reported at least up to the

beginning of the twentieth century. In a dream, the god or

saint would appear and perform a number of possible healing

functions: he might directly enact a cure, or he might

suggest a diet, or prescribe actions that the sick person

needed to carry out (see Edelstein and Edelstein 194^;

Hamilton 1906). In recent times, incubation has been

observed in Morocco (Crapanzano 1975), where tombs of the

saint are sought out for sleeping, so that one might be cured

by the saint.

Possession Trance

A representative example of healing through possession

trance is that of the Zar cult, which can be found throughout

the Middle East. It has been well studied by Kennedy (1978)

in the case of the Nubians of Egypt. Disorders are observed,

mainly in women, which are believed by the local

12 Anthropology of Consciousness [5(2)]

populations in which this Zar cult is seen, to be caused by

spirits through possession. What is distinct with the Zar cult

is that both patients and healers are dissociated during the

course of treatment, and indulge in a dialogue while both are

possessed. If a woman is suspected of having an illness caused

by a Zar spitit, a ceremony is called for which could last for

several days. During this time there is much dancing and

singing, some animal sacrifice, and a ceremonial journey

down to the Nile where the patient and others bathe their

bodies. Kennedy (1978:208) described how:

The audience's enthusiasm may be low at the

beginning of a zar performance, or may flag at later

points during long sessions. At such times, the

sheikh of the zar usually demonstrates his own

supernatural abilities. He becomes possessed by a

series of often quite different spirits, each demanding

elaborate costume changes."

Prince (1980:316) has pointed out, in his discussion of

the Zar phenomena, that there are two patterns found when

dissociative states are used psychotherapeutically: first, the

healer is dissociated (in trance or trance possession); second,

the patient is dissociated, while the healer may or may not

be. As we have seen, the Zar cult falb under the latter class,

with the healer also becoming dissociated.

Trance

An example of a healer going into trance to effect a

curing, but not becoming possessed, is seen with the dukun of

Java (Geertz 1960/1977). A dukun is at once a curer, sorcerer

and ceremonial specialist; the term is generic, there being all

kinds of dukuns—masseurs, midwives, mediums, herbalists

and so on. The practice for curing which can be thought of

as trance is well described by Geertz (1977:149):

The dukun meditates, going into a near trance and

clearing his mind entirely of any 'pictures' until he

gets an abstract and formless feeling which tells him

what the disease is and what the cure should be.

Ritual

Strictly speaking, a practiced ritual does not necessarily

involve an altered state of consciousness, but it might be

argued that, psychologically speaking, a ritual requires careful

concentration and almost obsessive care for detail to the

point where the ordinary day-to-day consciousness and

awareness is transformed to a certain degree. In any case, for

the sake of completeness, we should illustrate

psychotherapeutic functions effected by ritual alone.

Previously we had discussed one role of the shaman as healer.

The shaman might enact curing through a number of

methods, including herbs and in possession trance. Another

way is through simply carrying out a meticulous ritual. A

good example comes from Peru, being that of the curandero

called Eduardo who was studied over a period of time by

Douglas Sharon (1978). In many south American rituals

performed by shamans and curanderos the concept of a mesa is

crucial. A mesa is a display of so-called "power objects,"

objects which have been acquired by the shaman, have

special meaning for him and which are understood as a

medium through which acts of healing are carried out. The

term also'refers to ritual acts performed with these artifacts.

As Sharon (1978:62) explained it in the case of Eduardo:

Taken as a whole, the mesa symbolizes the duality of

the worlds of man and nature—a veritable

microcosm duplicating the forces at work in the

universe.

In Eduardo's case and in other South American shamans,

the mesa operation may be conjoined with the imbibing of

hallucinogens (specifically, the San Pedro cactus for

Eduardo), but it is the ritual application of the mesa in

curanderismo in general that provides the symbolic prop" as

Sharon called it for not only curing, but for other diverse

"magical" properties, such as locating lost property, punishing

thieves, influencing the weather, and so forth (see Sharon

1978:73).

Meditation

There are many kinds of meditative techniques (see

Goleman 1977), but one in particular has been the target of

investigation for therapeutic effect. This is the technique of

Transcendental Meditation. Basically, the technique consists

of a repetition of a Sanskrit word or sound, a so-called mantra

(see Goleman 1977:68-74 for full description). Usually the

repetition is performed when the subject is in a quiet and

relaxed state, so that it is difficult to distinguish the effects of

the mantra per se and the bodily state of relaxation during

which it is said. Both physiological and psychological effects

of Transcendental Meditation have been investigated. Prince

(1980:313-314) has summarized the various studies showing

indeed that positive effects have been determined, but that

some similar physiological results can also be matched by

traditional relaxation methods.

Adaptive Functions

Proposed social and psychological functions of ASCs

abound in the literature. Underlying all of the proposed

functions of ASCs is the assumption that such states are

"adaptive" in some way. It is important to note here that the

term "adaptation" has a specialized definition in terms of the

theory of evolution through natural selection, as well as its

more common dictionary definition. In its general sense,

"adaptation" is defined as "adjustment to different

circumstances or conditions" (Thomdike Barnhart

Advanced Dictionary), while in its specialized sense,

"adaptation" is defined as "genetic changes within

populations in response to selection (environmental)

pressure; usually takes many generations" (Nelson and

Jurmain 1988:619). Thus the species-wide human capacity to

experience altered states of consciousness is clearly a product

of evolutionary processes over many generations (as

evidenced by their extremely widespread distribution)

(Ludwig 1969), yet what selective (environmental) pressures

this capacity is an adaption to has not yet been clearly

addressed in the literature.

By contrast, adaptive functions as they are more

generally set forth in the literature are merely adjustments to

different circumstances or conditions that may be made by a

single individual within a single lifetime. In keeping with

this sense of the term, Ludwig has outlined some "adaptive

June 1994 iShamanism and Altered States of Consciousness 13

expressions" of ASCs: "to acquire new knowledge or

experience, express psychic tensions or relieve conflict

without danger to himself or others, and to function more

adequately and constructively in society." (1969:19).

Possession trance has been linked, by some researchers, to

circumstances of educational and economic deprivation and

frustration suffered by marginal social groups, particularly

minorities and women in societies which deny social mobility

(Bourguignon 1976/1991; Greenbaum 1973; Kiev 1972;

Lewis 1966; Ward 1984).

Altered states of consciousness have also been viewed as

vehicles of adaptation for societies as a whole when

confronted with consequences of social, cultural, economic,

and political change, especially when they have resulted in

revitalization movements (La Barre 1938, Wallace 1956).

These may focus on accommodation to changing

circumstances such as those brought on by European

expansionism and consequent reservation life, as in the case

of Native American revitalization movements, or as a way of

reconfirming religious beliefs and traditions, as in the case of

Thaipusam ceremonies among the Hindu community in

Malaysia (detailed above). In either case ASCs may be

utilized to promote cohesion in marginal communities.

Conclusion

There seem to be no simple or monolithic explanations

regarding any aspect of enquiry into altered states of

consciousness. Aside from the many terminological problems

in definition and description of the phenomena, etiologies

and functional explanations have been proposed with

reference to a wide variety of academic disciplines, and their

concomitant theoretical orientations. Further, it has been

tentatively concluded that many of the specifics with regard

to the manifestation of ASCs seem literally to be reflective of

the meaning systems of the participants, thus making the

phenomena particularly slippery when attempting to deduce

characteristics of a fundamental or universal nature. Finally,

the preoccupation of Western thought with concrete

material phenomena has resulted in a scientific bias against

systematic inquiry into such ephemeral phenomena as

consciousness itself, the apparently universal human need for

spirituality and the seemingly equally universal search for

personal meaning in life. Despite these difficulties, altered

states of consciousness stubbornly persist as a significant

aspect of human experience and therefore warrant serious

attention by psychologists and other scholars.

Moreover, we should add that the topics discussed in this

chapter are really updates of issues that have been long

reviewed by psychology. One need only go back to William

James's (1902) Varieties of Religious Experience to realize that

what we now are calling altered states of consciousness and

shamanistic states are similar, if not identical, to those earlier

understood as experiential correlates of mysticism and

religious experience. Culture and time undoubtedly

influence the way in which these experiences are understood

by the subject and communicated to others. And, again,

without doubt, the degree to which such experiences are

taken seriously by mainstream psychology may also differ

over time. Nevertheless, the substantive areas concerned

have a long and respectable history in the study of human

nature."

References

Re: Integral Shamanism (transcript)

http://rickholden76.gaia.com — Wed, 23 May 2007 16:57:30 GMT

Juliee,

I don't buy into the practice not mattering or the teaching behind the practice. According to this idea, it doesn't matter what a person does to develop, as long as they want to develop or have their heart or mind in the right place. But how are they supposed to get their hearts and minds in the right place to begin with?
Anyone who has learned to play a musical instrument can attest to this. You can play around with an instrument for years and never actually learn how to play. Practice doesn't make perfect if the practice is flawed. In fact it can be damaging by instilling bad habits that have to be undone later.
That's why I'm wondering if the psychological motivation for this kind of practice is in par with people reinventing and practicing witchcraft or the modern invention, Wicca.
Should we be encouraging people who may be looking for status, attention and notoriety?

This is off the subject, but the mind/body/spirit/shadow split doesn't make sense to me. Shadow is really just another way of saying inclinations, which is an aspect of mind. Spirit is something that people say and can't define, so we shouldn't use it. It means something different to everyone, simply because it is not self evident. I've never seen, felt or percieved anything that you could call spirit in my life.
I know you do Reiki, so you'll probably say something about that, but I was a licensed massage therapist for 7 years and learned many modalities. All I can say is that the human capacity for self-delusion is infinite and often necessary, and the placebo effect is just as real as the biochemical effects of a drug.

Re: Integral Shamanism (transcript)

http://julieaerwin.gaia.com — Wed, 23 May 2007 13:21:06 GMT

Holden

What this has to do with transpersonal consciousness development is lost on me.

Hi Holden.

My understanding of I-I's recommendation/suggestion/evidence based research(?) is that to develop as human beings we would be well advised to focus our efforts on a minimum of 4 key areas

Mind
Body
Spirit
Shadow

Working on all four at once rather than just a single line. I-I/KW do recommend what they call 'gold star' practices for each BUT stress that everyone is free to choose their own practice.
So whilst, for example, they recommend Integral Inquiry meditation to contribute to spiritual development they also state there is no reason why one cannot continue with one's own existing religious/spiritual practice - hence the debate as to whether or not Shamanic practices (of whatever variety and from whichever cultural context) can be deemed integral or contribute to an integral practice, a valid set of questions IMO. Whether or not the consciousness development is transpersonal or not will obviously depend upon the altitude of the 'developer'.

Juliee

Re: Integral Shamanism (transcript)

http://rickholden76.gaia.com — Wed, 23 May 2007 01:01:56 GMT

Adastra,

Ok, I see what your saying. So then my next question is why? Why take a holistic practice that can't really be separated from it's historical, political and socioeconomic ties, separate it anyway and then reinvent it with a western spin for consciousness development?
I'm curious as to the motivations of people that would do this. There seems to be a great deal of a re-birth of the romanticising of the primitive other within the New Age movement and within popular culture. Like old native American medicine men in movies that seem to know what's really going on behind the scenes.
It would seem to be a status issue within the particular, spiritual subculture.
Shamanistic practice has always been something utilitarian in nature. One had to have access to spirits to ensure crop success or a good hunt, etc... Throughout Africa death is not a natural state, but is only brought about via witchcraft. Therefore, access to spirits or god was essential to live.
In any case local mythology was never simplistic, but a complex system of death and birth and sometime reincarnation.
What this has to do with transpersonal consciousness development is lost on me.

Re: Integral Shamanism (transcript)

http://aqalicious.gaia.com — Tue, 22 May 2007 14:46:07 GMT

Holden: I also like to think of native spirit traditions like that. So many involve trance, that the ones that don't seem like taxonomic outcasts that it would be nice to set aside, but we really can't do that. Shamanism and it's various practices have never been separate from the social and political functions and what we know as shamanism cannot be separated from the colonial-indigenous discourse.

~~~~~

Hi Holden

I don't have time/energy/attention these days to even begin to give this subject justice, but I want to make a couple of points in passing. Of course all the complexities you mention are part of the mix - and at various times, I've had discussion with people about those aspects, but I'm far from an expert in this area. Shamanism - in the more general sense - exists in many different cultures and is endlessly complex. It has evolved through various stages, and continues to do so. So are we talking about magenta shamanism? Red? Amber? Orange? Green? (Lots of that around in neo-shamanic circles.) Teal/Turquoise? Ah, now that I might be a little more interested in. But would that be "real" shamanism? What does that even mean?

I would say that only at integral altitudes do we get to a point where the confusions caused by trying to interpret shamanism through one of the first-tier worldviews can start to be addressed in a meaningful way - then it would take a while to sort all that out, and there's never going to be one completely and utterly true narrative that will satisfy everyone. What "is" shamanism? Who's looking, through what filters, and what are they looking at?

Holden: So when Ken says: “And again, the shamanic practices were the first true transcendental breakthrough practices anywhere on the planet; and they really pioneered particularly the subtle states” I want him to get into some kind of specifics, because shamanic practices are often not transcendental, but are more egocentral or introverted.

~~~~~

Ken was asked some general questions, answered them generally, and pointed out some directions he felt could be useful to explore. I wouldn't expect him to answer in a Q&A format with the 15-hour discourse that might be required to deeply explore the issue, particularly when it's not an area of expertise for him.

Holden: If we transform indigenous practices to serve our modern needs then it becomes something we have done, something we have created.

Yes, of course.

Whenever two or more cultures interact, new forms will be created. Magenta, amber, etc. civilizations have been interacting, adopting each other's techniques, and mutually transforming since this whole game got started. There are plenty of upsides, downsides, potentials and pitfalls in this ongoing game of cultural evolution.

spiral out,
arthur

Re: Integral Shamanism (transcript)

http://julieaerwin.gaia.com — Tue, 22 May 2007 11:16:47 GMT

In awe!

I usually (usually) understand integralese - I just can't reproduce it very well, I'm a bit of a plain spoken kinda gal.

Juliee

Re: Integral Shamanism (transcript)

http://pelle.gaia.com — Tue, 22 May 2007 09:15:33 GMT

Juliee:
My 'plain english' (I'm not very good at replicating 'Integral-speak) view is that the source is the source whatever human structures are wrapped around it, whether native culture specific, western culture specific or academic culture specific.

Your plain English is just fine Juliee. If you want to translate it into integralese it would be something like this:
Shamanism and Reiki both access and work with subtle energies. The energies themselves are "pure", but the interpretation of the work is very much dependent on the level of the energy worker. Also, the recipient of the work con-structs or co-creates the images or experiences that come as a result of being flooded by subtle energies.

peace
pelle

Re: Integral Shamanism (transcript)

http://julieaerwin.gaia.com — Tue, 22 May 2007 08:49:57 GMT

Like Infimitas I too have very little knowledge in this area.

I started to wonder (like Doug) if Shamanism could be integral. I have a friend who started down this pathway 18 months or so ago. We met when we did reiki-2 training three years ago and we were asked to 'practice' on each other. Over time she moved from exchanging reiki with me to practising healing through sounds and other practices. Initially i sort of humoured her even though it felt deeply silly, however I had a number of experiences which made me question myself.

This plus my own reiki experiences got me to asking, is all this stuff magenta or is it green or is it second tier? My intuition on the question was that it depends upon the altitude of the practitioner, the 'recipient' and what you are 'tapping into'. My 'plain english' (I'm not very good at replicating 'Integral-speak) view is that the source is the source whatever human structures are wrapped around it, whether native culture specific, western culture specific or academic culture specific.

I hope that broadening it out to include reiki isn't too far off topic.
I'm interested to hear what the practices might 'look like, feel like, sound like' at different altitudes.

Juliee

Re: Integral Shamanism (transcript)

http://rickholden76.gaia.com — Mon, 21 May 2007 18:29:04 GMT

I also like to think of native spirit traditions like that. So many involve trance, that the ones that don't seem like taxonomic outcasts that it would be nice to set aside, but we really can't do that. Shamanism and it's various practices have never been separate from the social and political functions and what we know as shamanism cannot be separated from the colonial-indigenous discourse.
We see similar issues with Buddhism or Hinduism that is grounded in a particular cultural base and transplanted to the U.S. What's good for a Tibetan isn't always good for us. So it becomes a fine balance of getting to the core of a tradition and yet not throwing out various cultural practices willy nilly. The problem with Shamanism, is that there is no core. It is something that exists in a particular space and time and is highly dynamic.
By the time there was someone to study shamanism, the cultural group was already in contact with a colonial or local state government. Rappaport's famous study in the highlands of Papa New Guinea show us a linked web of spiritual practice, ritual warfare and pig sacrifice all serving an ecological niche. So if we took some of their spiritual practices and nothing else, we've assumed that certain practices have functions that they probably don't.
It is also very naive to think that if you go to South America to take part in a kind of ritual tourism with a local indigenous group that the Indians aren't completely aware of the global, cultural and hegemonic influences involved and know what it expected from them in the performance. And that's what it is, a performance. To think that the native people aren't aware of the material discrepancies in the relationship between them and tourists, is a kind of ethnocentric blindness. After all, we don't see these groups making visits to the Vatican for meetings with the Pope. Such a thought is ridiculous only because it is out of the realm of possibility of the Indians. Once a folk practice is written down and standardized it is no longer a folk practice. A true folkway only exists with variation and with personal transmission.
This actually happens with all spiritual tourism whether its in South America or a Japanese Zen monastery. Both spiritual practitioner and tourists are transformed into a liminal state into particular kinds of objects often involving a great deal of uncertainty and inversion.
If your really interested in neo-shamanism and have access to the JSTOR database, I recommened the article, "Shamanism Today," by Jane Atkinson in the Annual Review of Anthropology.

So when Ken says: "And again, the shamanic practices were the first true transcendental breakthrough practices anywhere on the planet; and they really pioneered particularly the subtle states" I want him to get into some kind of specifics, because shamanic practices are often not transcendental, but are more egocentral or introverted. One popular German neo-shaman discounted a native shaman he met for using monkey blood in a healing ceremony and passing it off for the person's blood (think placebo effect).
He went into a diatribe about how real shamanism is about trancenting in communion with the spiritual world. Mind you, he's talking down to an actual, native, practicing and accepted Indian shaman. His words would also seem strange to most actual practicing shaman, when he said that they shouldn't use tricks like animal blood in rituals.
If we transform indigenous practices to serve our modern needs then it becomes something we have done, something we have created.

Re: Integral Shamanism (transcript)

http://aqalicious.gaia.com — Mon, 21 May 2007 17:26:49 GMT

infirmitas: I personally hate in when people talk about “Eastern” religion, as if it's all one thing (Vedanta and Confucianism really don't share much in common, for instance). Still, language being what it is, I usually understand what people mean by the termt, so perhaps we should do the same here and not be too picky about the semantics.

~~~~~~

Yes, that's how I feel about it as well. Sometimes it is very useful to clarify terms for the purposes of discussion - as Ken does for the often vaguely-used term "spiritual" in this post (see the sub-heading "Four Meanings of 'Spiritual'") - but it's also possible to get too hung up on specific definitions which can cut a dialog short or cause you to dismiss aspects of what someone is saying.

For me the central question is: do you feel that whatever particular shamanic or native tradition you are involved in (if you are) could benefit from applying the integral framework? If so then go for it.

cheers
arthur

Re: Integral Shamanism (transcript)

http://meta-gnosis.gaia.com — Mon, 21 May 2007 14:46:58 GMT

Totally outside my area of expertise here, but I'm curious about the subject. Other than Roger Walsh, are any II people involved with "shamanism" or native spiritual traditions?

Oh, and I just though, perhaps shamanism is best thought of in terms of a Witgenstinian relationship, where these traditions maintain more of a magenta flavour and have overall pattern similarities despite also havin differences? I personally hate in when people talk about "Eastern" religion, as if it's all one thing (Vedanta and Confucianism really don't share much in common, for instance). Still, language being what it is, I usually understand what people mean by the termt, so perhaps we should do the same here and not be too picky about the semantics.

Re: Integral Shamanism (transcript)

http://rickholden76.gaia.com — Mon, 21 May 2007 00:47:53 GMT

Right, but there are thousands of Shamanism techniques. It ain't like yoga or meditation.
You simply cannot separate shamanism from it's cultural context. You can't just learn a "sun dance," and think that you can separate it from it's total social and political meaning.
No more than someone can take up a yoga for fitness at a gym and assume a spiritual component.
All of this is comming from a very western and etic (external applied meaning) dialogue of shamanistic practices.
One of the main aspects of shamanism for the majority of cultural groups that have shamans is for the express purpose of communicating with local spirits and the spirtual realm. Once you remove the specific practice from its particular historical landscape with specific spirits and forces, then your no longer practicing anything that can be called shamanism, i.e., that particular kind of shamanism. What you have is a similacra, like Taco Bell for Mexican food. Then what your doing is trendy and fashionable, not spiritual. Again, like Tai Bo for kick boxing.

I attended a tea ceremony by an older Texas woman once who learned in Japan for a brief time. She learned all the moves and got certified, but to her it is all practiced and removed from the folk practice that it comes from and give tea meaning to the Japanese. My wife and all the other Japanese women there all said the same thing, that she was a mean person, and that she might know the moves, but she doesn't have the way of tea in her heart.

Re: Integral Shamanism (transcript)

http://aqalicious.gaia.com — Mon, 21 May 2007 00:29:21 GMT

Holden, it is very clear from the transcript that Ken and Doug are talking about shamanic practices and techniques, not equating "shamanism" with a "type of person." Also, while the term shaman may have evolved from something very specific, it has come to be used in a more general way. Language is like that. You are correct that "shamanism" doesn't mean one thing, any more than "meditation" or "meditative practices" mean one thing.

cheers
arthur

Re: Integral Shamanism (transcript)

http://rickholden76.gaia.com — Sun, 20 May 2007 21:43:35 GMT

The problem with this is that Ken and others think they know what they are talking about when they use the word "shamanism." The word shaman was used decades ago by an anthropologist when studying the spiritual representative of a Siberian cultural group. They were called shaman in that language. Shamanism as an ideate gets thrown around the way terrorism does these days. That is they are category mistakes, assuming that a tactic or supernatural worldview equals a kind of person.
The myriad forms of shamanism in pre-industrial cultural isolates don't mean one thing, and a shaman or medicine man isn't automatically a person accieving high states or stages living with people centered at lower ones. The position is often more political than spiritual and community support for a shaman is integral to their position as much and usually more than any spiritual attainment they have.
There are South American groups in which half of the population are shaman. In Korea there are schools that shaman must attend to learn how to practice healing and trance. There is a famous ethnography by Levi-Strauss which explores the highly nuanced, psychological aspects of shaman among North American Indians. In the story, the main character becomes a shaman for the sole purpose of discrediting these people as charlatans.
In the process he discovers that he has become a powerful and respected shaman in his region and realizes that shaman aren't powerful because they heal, but they heal because they are preceived as powerful.
This is the problem with the lower quadrants in general. They look like they make perfect sense, so long as you don't actually explore the stages outlined by AQAL.

Integral Shamanism (transcript)

http://aqalicious.gaia.com — Sun, 20 May 2007 20:30:57 GMT

The Integral Spiritual Center has posted a number of brief dialogs from the Zen Spiritual Center Q&A with Ken Wilber. One questioner asks, Is There Such a Thing as Integral Shamanism? This is a question I've been wanting to ask Ken for a while, so I was delighted to see this show up on the website.

~~~~~

Summary: Is there such a thing as an integral approach to native and shamanic traditions? Ken responds, “Absolutely.” In every spiritual tradition—East, West, North, South—there are teachers who recognize that in addition to honoring the gifts of their lineage, there are ways that they can make their tradition more comprehensive, complete, and integral. This kind of work progresses at the speed with which people step forward to take on this task, and due largely to the regressive and anti-integral flavor of native and shamanistic traditions as taught by American boomers over the past several decades, things have been unfortunately slow. However, as recognized by Integral Spiritual Center teacher Roger Walsh, these traditions have an enormous amount to offer, particularly regarding subtle states of consciousness.

The brave gentleman who initiated this conversation is working to bring an integral approach to a tradition that has been near to his heart for decades. If you also have some practice, tradition, or lineage that you want to make more integral, this conversation is a wonderful hit of inspiration.

~~~~~

Here's the transcript I did of this talk, slightly edited for clarity and flow:

Doug: Hi Ken, I'm Doug.

Ken: Hi!

Doug: It's a great pleasure to speak to your disembodied voice.

Ken: <laughs>

Doug: I gotta tell you, it creeps me out when Diane looks at the speaker when she's talking to you.

Ken: But I'm actually in the speaker!

Diane: He doesn't realize I'm looking towards the heavens, it's not actually the speaker!

Doug: Yes, yes. <laughs>

Ken: I'm that thin!

Doug: I think this question might actually relate to the previous one in some way, and my question is: Is there any movement to develop something like an “integral native” that synthesizes native or shamanic traditions? Second question: if not, from your perspective is it a good idea? And thirdly, what would it take to get it started if it is a good idea?

Ken: Yeah, actually I think it would be a terrific idea, and one of the things that has happened is, I think we started out in the sixties with kind of a notion – it was a pioneering notion, but it ended up to be a bit of a crude stroke – in sort of thinking that there [are] basically two kinds of religion. On the one hand there's just sort of this dogmatic, institutional, mostly western kind of Protestant, Catholic and so on – and we didn't too much like that. Then there were the esoteric traditions, transcendental and mystical experience – particularly experiential, and not merely beliefs. And we sort of lumped everything in that one bag, and didn't make much distinctions between them. That was a good start, but it lead to a lot of problems – because what we really want in an integral approach is to include all states, including gross, subtle, causal, turiya, nondual, and all structures, and all quadrants of course, and all types. And most of these religions or spiritual practices themselves don't do that; and so when we kind of mushed everything together it was really problematic.

So what we're looking for, and what I've been looking for, and Integral Institute has been looking for over the years, are pioneering teachers that were willing to come in and look at their own traditions, and recognize that like anything else, these were growing and evolving things! That they had their own contributions to make but that they continued to grow and incorporate new discoveries of spirit's own continuing unfolding. And so what we're looking for in a sense is an integral Buddhism and an integral Vedanta and an integral Catholicism; and all of those can look at their own lineages and see what resources they have to fill in some of the AQAL gaps that they haven't been using, and then they can look elsewhere to take other practices to fill their own up.

One of the difficulties with the native orientations, shamanic orientations, is that for a lot of people that adopted it, they really kind of made it into a be-all and end-all; there was just a little too strong of that early impulse to sort of take each of these traditions and say “Well, this is just the whole thing, I don't need to do anything else. This is it.” And we started to develop a term, that a lot of us started to use as we realized that we ourselves were guilty of this, and it was called “dharma bum.” It was meant as a bit of a criticism, but also affectionately. But the idea was, now wait a minute, I really do have to supplement my practice with some other thing. And in some ways the Americans that picked up native shamanic practices really have been some of the ones to resist a more integral approach. But would we welcome it? Oh, absolutely!

And again, the shamanic practices were the first true transcendental breakthrough practices anywhere on the planet; and they really pioneered particularly the subtle states. As Roger Walsh pointed out in his book on shamanism – which I think it's really brilliant – you don't get a whole lot of causal or pure emptiness states in shamanic work. There's some, but it's not terribly central. But you do get an unparalleled exploration of the subtle domain and subtle states. And so you'd want that to be foundational and a part of any overall path; and some people would want to specialize in that particular dimension, which is absolutely fine. But it has been slower to come along. We'd love to do it - you can find some interviews with Native American Cherokee and so on, on Integral Naked, but if you know any others that want to join, or you yourself are particularly interested in it, then we're more than glad to have 'em.

Doug: Thank you very much.

Ken: Yeah, buddy. Are you a practitioner of shamanic states?

Doug: I've been practicing the Sun Dance for about 20 years.

Ken: Fantastic! How did you come to that?

Doug: Because I loved somebody.

Ken: Really? You want to tell us?

<pause, general laughter>

Ken: I won't tell anybody, just tell me.

Doug: All right, well I went to work as a volunteer at a Native American reservation when I was about 20 years old, and fell in love with the culture and a particular family, and was adopted by a man who was a Sun Dance leader.

Ken: Oh my lord!

Doug: And he had a heart attack, and I saw it in a dream, and in the Lakota way if you want somebody to live you vow to Sun Dance for them. So that's how it got started.

Ken: Aw...that is so extraordinary! My first wife and I were married on sacred Lakota ground. Extraordinary tradition. Do you feel like carrying some of that forward then? I mean...

Doug: Yes.

Ken: ...I think, you know, we'd love to talk with you about a Sun Dance Integral Spiritual Practice.

Doug: Cool.

Ken: That would be great! So let's just keep that in mind and hold that as a vision for tomorrow.

Doug: Thank you.

Ken: Thank you!