Gaia: The Integral Pod - Water Cooler - Group dynamics and other animals

Re: Group dynamics and other animals

http://monk.gaia.com — Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:15:20 GMT

Right on, Rick. That's the spirit. But we need the full set of tools. We can't always be using the horns, can't always be doing the bull charge. If we use the wrong tool for a particular situation, we will not be waking anyone up, we will be putting them into a deeper sleep. We also need to consider who we're talking to, what their understanding is, what the context of the relationship is, how well we know the person (often a good idea to establish a relationship before bringing out the horns), etc. We always need a double inquiry--in addition to the inquiry into absolute nature in meditation, we need to inquire into our motivations as we act. Am I coming from emptiness, or am I coming from anger? Am I coming from emptiness, or am I coming from hurt? Am I coming from emptiness, or am I coming from frustration? The feeling component of authentic action is bliss, ecstasy, freedom, positivity, care for all. When this is not what we are feeling, we need to be really careful and go easy.

Re: Group dynamics and other animals

http://rickholden76.gaia.com — Tue, 10 Jul 2007 18:04:47 GMT

Oh I see! You can't handle the strong black expresso of truth! You need your truth watered down with a little cream and sugar! Well I can't do that! I am not here to give you want you want, I am here to give you that real thing, to wake you up from 400 years of sleep son!

(that was a bad Malcom X parody)

Re: Group dynamics and other animals

http://monk.gaia.com — Mon, 09 Jul 2007 13:21:47 GMT

Durwin, thank you. Yes, I've been to several Andrew Cohen retreats, and, generally, the experience has been great. The first retreat I went to in 2004 was particularly amazing because I wasn't too familiar with his teachings, and he laid it all out in one weekend. It clarified things tremendously for me. I would recommend going on a long retreat if you can because sometimes the weekend retreats just take a part of the teachings. But the weekends can still be just as powerful. Embracing Heaven and Earth is my favorite book of his.

Re: Group dynamics and other animals

http://monk.gaia.com — Mon, 09 Jul 2007 13:09:52 GMT

Rick, I really like you and you add a lot to the forum, but you come off a little strong sometimes.

Re: Group dynamics and other animals

http://rickholden76.gaia.com — Mon, 09 Jul 2007 01:47:33 GMT

No hostility. There wasn't any earlier either. I think that people were taking my point about all the talk about equality of understanding in this type of forum as me saying that I was a little more equal than others, and that's not what I was saying.
I just think we should be honest about about the whole I-I experiment. There is no such thing as neutral knowledge, we can't say that there is inherent hierarchy of understanding and that it is built into immutable laws governing cognitive development, and not expect some people to be offended, and others to take advantage.
Habermas was right when he said that sometimes political and social systems reproduce themselves, for no other reason than like people tend to favor like people, and that some reproduction over time is inevitable; not just some hegemonic plot by handful of greedy elites.
While he was right, the Chilean government and others have usurped his argument to explain and justify repressive governmental policeis that reflect the former dictatorships that ruled these states.
For us to be naive about all this doesn't help anyone.

Re: Group dynamics and other animals

http://durwinfoster.gaia.com — Mon, 09 Jul 2007 00:07:27 GMT

Hi there: Yes, I appreciate your response here very much...I am learning the ways of online forums and I guess the reason my last response "disappeared" from the thread is that I replied to you and not the thread....a question I have is whether you have attended retreat with Cohen and if so, what your experience was like...

Durwin

Re: Group dynamics and other animals

http://monk.gaia.com — Sun, 08 Jul 2007 22:45:27 GMT

Thanks, Durwin. Yes, the idea of authentic self seems so important to me as well. Because we have the personal self and then the self absolute, and then, as you say, two choices: authenticity or deadening. Another way to look at it is that we come to a crossroads, and one road leads into the "new" and the other road leads to the "old." The new tends to be a bit frightenting, and the personal self will always have some excuse for not wanting to take it (it's not ready yet, it will be so unfamiliar, etc.). The old is stagnant water, a cesspool. So in an evolutionary context we go into the new. That's a teaching of Andrew Cohen, and it's been pretty helpful for me. Of course, it doesn't require that we take up every little new thing that comes along, but we kind of know when it's something we should do, right? At least once we see that there's fresh running water down one road and a cesspool down the other. In this way we become more and more impersonal, more and more ethereal, while maintaining or even enhancing the ability to be personal when appropriate.

Re: Group dynamics and other animals

http://durwinfoster.gaia.com — Sun, 08 Jul 2007 22:13:24 GMT

Hi David: I have not been involved around here much at all, but David I appreciate your emphasis on authenticity and the authentic self...my northstar at the moment is authenticity, since the choice for the "centaur" seems to be between authenticity, on the one hand, or deadening, on the other hand...

Best to y'all,
durwin

Re: Group dynamics and other animals

http://Mascha.gaia.com — Sun, 08 Jul 2007 22:02:15 GMT

Right you are Rick. Absolutely true

I have thought of mentioning what you said myself, but then I considered the cognitive level of the people reading here and thought, Naah, they don't need me to point out the other half of the truth. They can see.

Love,

M

Re: Group dynamics and other animals

http://monk.gaia.com — Sun, 08 Jul 2007 21:52:36 GMT

Rick, is there any hostility behind your posts in this thread? There definitely was earlier. Are you still feeling hostile? It kinda seems like you are.

Re: Group dynamics and other animals

http://rickholden76.gaia.com — Sun, 08 Jul 2007 21:41:36 GMT

Oh, and Mascha, there's also something we can't forget. Sometimes people have a higher level of understanding, sometimes people do project, sometimes people do use skillful means, and sometime people know a lot of shit.

That was what my previous posts were pointing at. The absurdity of bringing green egalitarianism into a forum based upon an understanding of inherent hierarchy.
This I believe, is Integral's Acheales heel. I don't see how anyone can keep Integral from being utilized to undermine Integral.
In the end, I believe that this is why the Buddha had the good sense to not answer questions that didn't deal directly with our immdieate situation and suffering.

Re: Group dynamics and other animals

http://rickholden76.gaia.com — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 06:00:54 GMT

"Not seeking, we don't need a map. But exploring all This from every conceivable angle and challenging each other in the process to go further sure beats setting ourselves up as unassailable know-it-alls, eh, Rick?" I have no idea Mascha, nor any opinion about I-I politics.

Re: Group dynamics and other animals

http://Mascha.gaia.com — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 02:36:17 GMT

Good one, Rick :-) Now that you mention it, yes, the know-it-all defense can also be used in the shuffle. Though I would say that all of them are passive-aggressive power plays. What say you? Are there any more trumps? If everybody puts their minds to it, pretty soon we'll all be playing with a full deck of cards.

Michael,

"I wonder if it is the inevitable fate of any “corporation” that management will set itself in opposition to staff, and that the organization as a whole (and by that I mean the leadership, in-house psychophants, and mgt. - not staff) will set itself against its own shareholders and other invested parties."

I have yet to see an organisation that doesn't end up exploiting its members/workers by devouring their energy in a vampiristic fashion to feed its own head (top brass) and assure its continued survival at the expense of the entire body, like a parasite. But there may be exceptions. Others here have looked much further into this. As it stands, I'm a self-employed freelancer working out of my home for a reason. Being ultimately unemployable in the long run is only one of them.

Like you said regarding the I-I handling of legitimate complaints and suggestions from the experts in the trenches, forum-wise: "...we “idealists” and otherwise unruly combustibles may well be seen as an expendable liability."

This may actually be a reason for treating the most engaged forum participants (or ex-participants by now) with such stunning lack of just plain common sense. Hmm, Colin said something to that effect today.

And this too bears repeating:

Michael: "The lack of care that Robb and KW took with there comments lets me know clearly that their interests are not with those who are exploring Integral Theory on their own but more with the academics who are considering installing the curriculum of Integral Theory in their universities."

Well, thank your autonomy for speaking out with a voice not cowering to brow-beatings dressed up as spiritual truths. The irony is that no matter what happens to Integral this, that & the other, I still consider Ken a living Buddha. Yes! There, I said it, and his pointing out instructions were among the ones that confirmed for me what I didn't dare to acknowledge on my own, namely that indeed, "All beings are from the very beginning Buddhas. Not knowing it is near, they seek it afar... what a pity!" (Zen master Hakuin)

Not seeking, we don't need a map. But exploring all This from every conceivable angle and challenging each other in the process to go further sure beats setting ourselves up as unassailable know-it-alls, eh, Rick?

Love

M

Re: Group dynamics and other animals

http://mqs.gaia.com — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 01:34:50 GMT

Oh, oh, oh, that is soooo horrible! I never, ever use that one!!

Re: Group dynamics and other animals

http://rickholden76.gaia.com — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 00:52:03 GMT

Mascha, you forgot the 4th one, the "Know-it-all" defense. This is labeling anyone that says anything contrary to what someone else says as a "Know-it-all." It is the passive agressive card in the bunch. The brilliance of this defense is that it cuts down what the other person is saying and also insures a great deal of self-sensorship by that person.

Re: Group dynamics and other animals

http://mqs.gaia.com — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 19:50:38 GMT

Mascha dear,

You know, I wonder if it is the inevitable fate of any "corporation" that management will set itself in opposition to staff, and that the organization as a whole (and by that I mean the leadership, in-house psychophants, and mgt. - not staff) will set itself against its own shareholders and other invested parties.

This attempt to institutionalize a philosophical-spiritual practice seems to have run afoul of strongly conflicting interests - the intentions of self-appointed student/commentator/beta sites like you and I, and mgt's desire to formalize the course work and promote it into the collegiate mainstream. Against this backdrop of corporate business-minded expansion with its "product," we "idealists" and otherwise unruly combustibles may well be seen as an expendable liability. What else would explain why Balder has to wait so long for any respones (if at all) to his certainly legitimate questions?

CEO Robb's response to the comments on Lindsey's firing was petulant, and disrespectful let alone couched in the three untouchable trumps (a brilliant insight by the way) and KW's post script was pathetic. The lack of care that Robb and KW took with there comments lets me know clearly that their interests are not with those who are exploring Integral Theory on their own but more with the academics who are considering installing the curriculum of Integral Theory in their universities.

What I see happening is the attempt to corral Integral Theory into a patentable or "brandable," copywriteable, intellectual property that can defend itself against outside exploitation. In some ways, KW's wild west approach, though hugely wasteful of human energy, was still a better environment for the development of integral thought than this CEO-driven bizzness approach of Robb's as the first duty of any CEO is to ensure their own survival. That is best done by the "branding" process which is authored by the CEO and tattooed with his signature. KW can still be el Pandito but free of the business wrangle with the exception of the occasional and pathetic post script to his consigliere's utterances.

The I-I is beginning to look more and more like an entrepeneur-driven business than the hothouse for consciousness expansion technology that first atttracted me.

yer pal,
Michael

Re: Group dynamics and other animals

http://Mascha.gaia.com — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 19:00:07 GMT

Good point, David. Those higher ethics we espouse apply to everyone --- except to me, myself and my buddies/ cronies/ protegés when push comes to shove, right?

Yesterday, current I-I CEO Robb Smith posted an official message to Multiplex forum participants endorsed by Ken Wilber here.

As part of my response I am posting a re-worked exposé by 'anonymous' found on the Lightgate/Ken Wilber forum.

This updated metaphor for deceptive discourse could be useful in future discussions about group dynamics as it cuts through the fog generated by the games played almost invariably.
...................................................................................................................................................................
The 3-Card Shuffle:

It's really very simple how cultic groups or in-crowds defend the indefensible, and this very much holds true on internet forums as well. They play three very simple cards, which cannot, NO MATTER WHAT, be trumped. What’s remarkable is that self-proclaimed spiritual teachers and their groupies always play those same exact three cards, which are:

(1) The Higher Level Card (i.e. Sorry, it’s just over your head). Sorry, but you’re just not smart enough to realize I am smarter than you, because you’re on a lower (less realistic, rational, integral, enlightened, divine etc.) level.

(2) The Projection Card (i.e., I know what you are, but what am I ?). By criticizing me, you are really just criticizing yourself and using me as a strawman, because any problem you see in me is just a projection of a problem in yourself.

(3) The Skillful Means Card (i.e., it’s all your own fault, numbskull). The most potent card of all! It’s not abuse; it’s not pathetic, cowardly, mean-spirited and unethical; it’s a bold challenge for your own good or a crazy-wise teaching. You know, like Zen sticks and "facilitating" on your behalf. So when I use sophisticated tricks of jawboning, either openly or slyly, designed to imply (preferably without appearing to do so), that you're an idiot numbskull, it’s not because I’m an idiot numbskull, it’s because you have an idiot numbskull-complex that you need to evolve past, and I’m here to help you see that. So you owe me some gratitude, idiot, for my selfless sacrifices on your behalf.

Note that these trump cards are not designed in any way, shape or form to promote a discussion or dialogue. What can one possibly say to any of these cards? Nothing…and that is exactly the point. They are designed to end all discussion, and they are used when folks know the actual substance of their teaching has run, or is running, dry.

................................................................................................................................................................

with love and etheric hugs to all,

M

Re: Group dynamics and other animals

http://monk.gaia.com — Tue, 03 Jul 2007 19:44:42 GMT

A higher ethic, in my book, entails care for all without exception. In my experience in spiritual groups, at some point, when the pressure is on or when someone is threatening in some way or triggering people, an exception will be made. And the exception will be rationalized in all sorts of ways to prevent it being seen as an exception. It's at a pretty high COG that people want to start working wtih people who threaten them or trigger them in some way. They have to really want self-transcendence stage-wise, and they have to be willing to make the sacrfices necessary for it. As Ken says, at every new stage there is a benefit but also some price to pay.

Re: Group dynamics and other animals

http://Mascha.gaia.com — Tue, 03 Jul 2007 00:20:10 GMT

Hi Juliee and all,

yes, we went "whoa!" as well when we started reading the material on the Bully OnLine site and came across statements like this:

"Half the population are bullied by a serial bully ... most only recognize it when they read this

And this one:

"I estimate one person in thirty, male or female, is a serial bully."

One in 30?? And half the population of Great Britain? What about the population in Islamic countries? Most relevant for me, though, was to recognize the difference between bullying, harassment and assault as it pertains to spiritual groups where this sort of behavior should be largely absent or immediately nipped in the bud, right?

Well... (sigh). It only gets more sophisticated and subtle, even though it becomes grossly obvious once you've had your eyes opened to the patterns. We are all members of groups within groups within still larger groups, so it is very helpful to understand what makes us a target in the various configurations of group settings we find ourselves in -- at school, in the workplace, family, hospitals, spiritual circles and so on.

Quote excerpts from Bully OnLine.org:

Why me?

1) How do bullies select their targets?

The bully selects their target using the following criteria:

    * bullies are predatory and opportunistic - you just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time; this is always the main reason - investigation will reveal a string of predecessors, and you will have a string of successors

    * being good at what you do, often excelling

    * being popular with people (colleagues, customers, clients, pupils, parents, patients, etc)

    * more than anything else, the bully fears exposure of his/her inadequacy and incompetence; your presence, popularity and competence unknowingly and unwittingly fuel that fear

    * being the expert and the person to whom others come for advice, either personal or professional (ie you get more attention than the bully)

    * having a well-defined set of values which you are unwilling to compromise

    * having a strong sense of integrity (bullies despise integrity, for they have none, and seem compelled to destroy anyone who has integrity)

    * having at least one vulnerability that can be exploited

    * being too old or too expensive (usually both)

    * refusing to join an established clique

    * showing independence of thought or deed

    * refusing to become a corporate [or in-crowd] clone and drone

Jealousy (of relationships and perceived exclusion therefrom) and envy (of talents, abilities, circumstances or possessions) are strong motivators of bullying.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Their choice of words here is also noteworthy. Victims are called "targets" to forestall the derogatory connotations that "victimhood" has been saddled with in pop psychology and certain brands of New Age spirituality.

Cheers,

M

Re: Group dynamics and other animals

http://julieaerwin.gaia.com — Mon, 02 Jul 2007 10:35:48 GMT

Whoa Mascha

What a brilliant resource.

I recognise the bully-in-guru list and predator/prey descriptions and like you have been party to both. The former used to come out to play at work until one fairly innocuous meeting where I suddenly recognised what I was doing (last thing on a Friday night - I had to stew over the weekend before I could go back and apologise and try and make things right!). Now I try to hold myself lightly and laugh at my more preposterous moments.

There is slight variation on the theme which I'm very consciously working on; bully-in-parent-guru mode. I was heavily 'bullied' and controlled by my parents (in an orange-green its-for-your-own-good way; they still try it to this day) and I have to be constantly vigilant when with my kids to not repeat the patterns and I'm not always succesful. When I'm not I talk to the kids about it, they're becoming very adept at recognising things and use this to inform their own relationships with friends too.

In the context of this pod, I consciously hold back from trying to 'fix' other people (my favourite trick of yore), that's their journey to make. Perhaps, as you and Rick both say, more forthrightness is needed to aid learning - a pointing out but without defining a solution for the other person. As you say, very difficult to do, holding that line. Food for thought.

Thanks for your courage in putting this forward.

Juliee