Gaia: The Integral Pod - Chapel Perspicacious - Doobie Doobie Doo (Integral Pot)

Re: Doobie Doobie Doo (Integral Pot)

http://monk.gaia.com — Sun, 05 Aug 2007 15:39:58 GMT

I'm really not sure whether I'm talking about indigo or violet there.

Re: Doobie Doobie Doo (Integral Pot)

http://monk.gaia.com — Sun, 05 Aug 2007 12:44:10 GMT

Tim said: "Yes, I was thinking that one of the things such an order could do is not just distribute more power to families but at one and the same time more responsibility to which they would be accountable, perhaps. So, -again perhaps - this frees red but at the same time prompts it to be more responsible because not just your kid is going to jail but you are responsible as well?"

Yes, I agree with this. Too much control definitely diminishes a person's sense of responsibility. I think this is why people who have experienced extreme control sometimes let themselves go when they get out of those controlling situations and why a lot of American kids go wild when they get the chance. Marijuana should be decriminilized or legalized, and people should be told, "It's your life, and your life is your responsibility. You're free to do something positive with it, and you're free to fuck it up."

But people do benefit from proper guidance, and at the same time there should be a considerable education campaign that's honest about the drug's enjoyment-giving capabilties but also honest and up-to-date about its side effects. Most of the people argueing for legalization have a High Times-level understanding of the side effects and are also coming from a purely postmodern context, which is, if it feels good do it; whatever you want personally is spiritual and just as good as anything else. And this campaign needs to be directed at parents as much as kids. They need to know how it affects learning, motivation, growth, etc., that is, they need to be informed so they can make responsible choices.

The principal questions from a violet perspective would include, is it evolutionary? Is it in line with the Higher Order, the creative impulse? Is it going to help me build structures in consciousness and realize deeper states in consciousness and help me help others to do the same? If it's not and there's a better way to accomplish what I want to accomplish with it (relaxation, enjoyment, etc.), then forget it, drop it, there is no place for it in your life. Whether you like it or enjoy it personally is about the most irrevelant thing in the entire world. That may sound like an amber absolutism to some, but that's why we have the idea of memetic octaves in spiral dynamics: violet echoes amber and is often confused with it.

Re: Doobie Doobie Doo (Integral Pot)

http://timelody.gaia.com — Sun, 05 Aug 2007 05:01:55 GMT

Heh heh, see how in my laziness I manipulated responsible you to do it for me? (As Bill Cosby said, "we're stupid but not so stupid." ) Okay, just kidding, yes, that's the link. And it was a conversation that never really got going.

I said: (not so eloquently):

___________________________________________________________________
“we nevertheless believe that within responsible limits, families should have priority over government in educating their children about drugs. ”

I believe that this is a very workable second-tier principal - because it honors the societal holarchy and … how can I put this in the best words? … it seems capable of recognizing that at the root of the societal holarchy (and so it's very infrastructure) is always first the tribe. But -again, I am trying to find the right words and thoughts here-also, there is an issue of depth verses span. i.e. government may have wider span, but the tribe has the greater depth. (And obviously, like the writers here, I am assuming this in relatively healthy tribes/families, but the greater depth is there even if not.) Is there even an issue here of, say, the government from this view being most fundamental but least significant? Or is it just that government is LR … but the family/ tribe is both LR and LL? (And so, more Integral.)

At any rate, thinking out loud.

I think this is definitely within the scope of second-tier thinking. And certainly thinking along the lines of how societal government could accomplish its tasks better by distributing its power (which could still be held within its embrace) to the more appropriate and effective places- and also thereby encouraging and empowering healthier families, and by default and association, citizens …

(There are a number of ways I think the “tribal”principal can play into better second-tier governing; support groups and so on are te early signs of that and how that could work… but I have thought of this with a number of other issues, such as abortion, sex and so on, especially with regard to issues important to address in youth.)

___________________________________________________________________

David said:

“we nevertheless believe that within responsible limits, families should have priority over government in educating their children about drugs. ”

I partially agree with this. But there will be purple parents, red parents–of coure blue probably wouldn't go for it–orange, green , etc. I'm just not sure that parents are going to be trustworthy across the board, so there needs to be a certain standard set up, a certain baseline. . . .

__________________________________________________________________

My response now to David,

Yes, I was thinking that one of the things such an order could do is not just distribute more power to families but at one and the same time more responsibility to which they would be accountable, perhaps. So, -again perhaps - this frees red but at the same time prompts it to be more responsible because not just your kid is going to jail but you are responsible as well?

Hmmmmmmmmmm . . . . ths is tricky too. How responsible am I for my kids choices and behavior? I suppose -and maybe was not even thinking in terms of sending people to jail, but pressuring that responsibility. One of the principals involved, as I said, was deeper more meaningful reltationship in the LL. We know that this is a factor, for sure, in drug use at all. That is, pathological drug use. You know what I mean?

Re: Doobie Doobie Doo (Integral Pot)

http://aqalicious.gaia.com — Sun, 05 Aug 2007 02:03:22 GMT

timelody: I really thought there was second tier merit in something Arthur posted a while back (no link now, sorry) where the suggestion was made that the family be afforded the power (or more power) to decide about children's substance use, etc. There are societal holon spheres in it i.e. individual to tribe to wider society, the world etc. Kind of reversing and diversifying the power structure. (this way, for example, I could introduce and moniter my children's “pot” use, say wen they were teens, teach them responsibility, etc. without facing severe criminal charges myself - or ifmy kid came home with pot we could talk about it, etc. Again, there are very integral ideas in there, considering magenta and tribal cultures do this with substances all the damn time, etc.)

~~~~~

I believe you're referring to the Rites of Passage - Entheogens and Youth thread. :)

cheers,
arthur

Re: Doobie Doobie Doo (Integral Pot)

http://timelody.gaia.com — Sat, 04 Aug 2007 23:28:38 GMT

Right, David, but it is absolutely like that with alcohol as well. I've known so many alkies in my life, so many affected by what really could be called a scourge upon society, the human race - but the bottom line is it's legal, MOST people understand what's bad about it if too much (there are even issues of age when say, comparing US 21 with European younger ages, some no age at all) but it society finds other ways to handle the problem. What I mean to say is that problematic use will never go away either -but I agree with Colin, as I'm sure many do, it is probably much more sensible to make such things "not a big deal" -but when we talk of youth, there are SO many other things going on these days that drug use, yes, is just symptomatic. And same with adults, etc.

Anyway, I'm not contradicting or arguing with you David, I'm just adding to the mix here in another "quickie" post.

On thing is for sure, amber style absolutes are just silly an ineffective in these matters, and often have the exact opposite desired effect. 't aint Integral, that's for sure.

I really thought there was second tier merit in something Arthur posted a while back (no link now, sorry) where the suggestion was made that the family be afforded the power (or more power) to decide about children's substance use, etc. There are societal holon spheres in it i.e. individual to tribe to wider society, the world etc. Kind of reversing and diversifying the power structure. (this way, for example, I could introduce and moniter my children's "pot" use, say wen they were teens, teach them responsibility, etc. without facing severe criminal charges myself - or ifmy kid came home with pot we could talk about it, etc. Again, there are very integral ideas in there, considering magenta and tribal cultures do this with substances all the damn time, etc.)

Re: Doobie Doobie Doo (Integral Pot)

http://monk.gaia.com — Sat, 04 Aug 2007 22:02:04 GMT

As Jerry Garcia used to say, we have accept it that people want to change their consciousness and legalize or at least decriminalize.

However, when something is addictive, as pot has been shown to be, it is not so easy to control it. Eventually it will be exerting a lot of control over you.

Re: Doobie Doobie Doo (Integral Pot)

http://undercovertranssexual.gaia.com — Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:04:01 GMT

Tim, I'm totally with you on the "never going away" claim. We've made most "natural" drugs illegal, thus harder to find for some. Because the craving to escape reality (often for very legitimate reasons; look around us at the world: physical, emotional, and sexual abuse are rampant) will likely not disappear from the human experience, people will use whatever they can find to accomplish that goal. So, right...antihistamines, cough syrup, etc. It starts getting really scary when you hear of kids that are snuffing glue, paint and other really bad chemicals. My wife was working at an alternative high school this year, and a kid died from inhaling compressed air directly from a can. The propellant froze his lungs. From that perspective, pot looks pretty damn harmless. One can learn its limits and move away from escapist usage; one cannot do that as easily with these man-made chemicals that kids are using. I actually believe that more kids are dying than if marijuana were legal. I don't have the research at my fingertips to back that up, but speaking from what I've seen in the world, it's likely true.

Re: Doobie Doobie Doo (Integral Pot)

http://undercovertranssexual.gaia.com — Sat, 04 Aug 2007 18:16:14 GMT

Hi, Ewan,

I really want to check out that video. Work isn't the place for it, though, so I have to save it for weekend time, which is difficult to come by as well. I just wanted to acknowledge your post; I'm trying to get to it!

Best,
Colin

Re: Doobie Doobie Doo (Integral Pot)

http://timelody.gaia.com — Sat, 04 Aug 2007 18:13:42 GMT

Right Ewan. And the truly naive and ignorant sense I get, probably coming from amber, is the idea that drug use can be made to "go away;" that it can be wiped from the earth . . . eventually. George H.W. Bush's famous campaign speech way back in the late 80s, he said "and it's gonna stop!" Of course, yes, we need amber to regulate red, etc. But as with alcohol prohibition in the 20s here in the US, there I simply no way to "make it stop."

I know I'm not saying anything new here -anything that probably everybody doesn't already know -but for me there was definitely an increasing realization that there is no way to ever ultimately stop drug use. Here in the US again. Okay, s hard substances have been made, perhaps, more difficult, now people, teenagers especially, indulge in antihistamines, cough syrup . . . And there is, of course, a lot else going on in the other quadrants besides the LR to even cause that to be happening in the massive way it is now.

Re: Doobie Doobie Doo (Integral Pot)

http://monk.gaia.com — Sat, 04 Aug 2007 15:02:39 GMT

Hi Elliot,

From Kent, Ohio! As a matter of fact the last bong I purchased was made by a guy from Kent, a really nice piece of art. I've hardly used it, don't know why I bought it really. I guess I didn't know at the time that I was just about to quit. I also smoked the majority of my weed right there in the great state of Ohio, a wonderful place, great people, nice scenery etc., etc.

Is pot addictive? Well, if you've been following the saga over the years you would know that many think it is addictive in one way or another. I found a few articles for you. One is a study; some others include references; some are just from seemingly reputable sources.

There's this one

                  and this one

                                      and this one

                                                         and this one

                                                                   and this one

                                                                                 and this one

                                                                                          and this one

                                                                                                     and this one.

There's a lot more out there. Those were just from a quick google search.

All the best,

David

Re: Doobie Doobie Doo (Integral Pot)

http://elliottingersoll.gaia.com — Sat, 04 Aug 2007 04:01:29 GMT

Hey Dude

You're going to have to produce more than opinion to support the hypothesis "pot is addictive." My background is in pharmacology and that statement is not true if "addictive" means dependence inducing (physical dependence). Citations?

Blessings

Elliott

Re: Doobie Doobie Doo (Integral Pot)

http://monk.gaia.com — Fri, 03 Aug 2007 15:41:30 GMT

Grey said: "David: actually, it's not too hard to tell-you just look and see who's arguing for legalization and stuff. You don't find too many non pot smokers doing that.

I'd be careful about stereotyping like that. I don't smoke pot, but I'm all for legalization. OK, I have tried it twice, but didn't enjoy it at all (just gave me a headache). Point is I'm not for legalization because I want to be free to smoke it; I'm for legalization because I think it's the right thing to do for that particular substance."

Yeah, I'm for legalization too. What I really meant to say concerned people downplaying side effects.

Thanks for the link, Ewan. I'm not sure if I've heard that one; I'll check it out. Yes, there's a lot of incredibly potent weed these days. When I say I was an everday pot smoker for a year and a half or so, I wasn't smoking the really potent stuff very often. I don't know what would have happened if we had the really potent stuff on a regular basis. It wasn't that common in those days. We had a fairly steady supply of commercial Mexican that we would tell ourselves was really pretty decent, a little better than the last batch . . .

Re: Doobie Doobie Doo (Integral Pot)

http://ewantownhead.gaia.com — Fri, 03 Aug 2007 08:19:20 GMT

Hi Colin

Have you heard the audio of Ken and Roger Walsh discussing psychodelics? Totally fascinating stuff.

http://www.formlessmountain.com/kw_audio/KW_73.mp3

Roger is someone who has consciously used them, including marajuana, alsong side a spiritual practise. Ken is really clear on the issue - use them carefully and they can be of great benefit - rely on them and they'll screw you up. Makes sense to me.

Tim, totally agree on the prohibition thing - just dosn't work. People are going to smoke the stuff whether its legal or not - but if its illegal, it just pushes it underground, and completeely cripples any LL cultural support systems that are trying to emerge. Its pretty clear from what other countries have done with legalisation that it dosn't make usage go up, it dosn't make usage of other drugs go up. There are dangers and risks with it of course - but its pretty obvious that an truley Integral approach shows the necessity of it.

The kind of marajuana you get in the UK now is seriously strong skunk - bad news in my opinion. You simply can't get milder stuff - no one sells it. That wouldn't be the case if it were legal, and we had more LL understanding of it.

Ewan

Re: Doobie Doobie Doo (Integral Pot)

http://timelody.gaia.com — Fri, 03 Aug 2007 06:00:00 GMT

There has been a push for legalization in Nevada now for a long time, it never passes. Each time they try a new proposal (it's a national group -they see Nevada as the most likely state in the US), a few years ago three ounces, then 1 ounce in your home, etc.

I got my own real sense of the dire need to re-think drug prohibition by looking at the home town I grew up in. In the mid 90s the crime, the violence, the gangs, etc. it was just out of control. In the neighborhood where I grew up, where my parents still lived, you'd watch the hourly transactions across the street, etc., etc. But I really got a sense of the madness when there was one night a burning car in front of my parents house - 20 feet away was our first daughter, three months old, sleeping in her crib (i.e. the room was that close to the street and this burning car).

The point being that prohibition does not work, it really doesn't as far as I am concerned and just creates more real, real problems. We had my wife's younger cousin come live with us for a while back then too. Within 24hr or less -less actually -in coming to a town where he knew nobody and had never been before, he had setup his pot connection. Right under our noses. It was that easy.

It just doesn't work as far as I am concerned. Legalization certainly is not the full answer (LR) but it is definitely worth considering how society handles these substances.

Re: Doobie Doobie Doo (Integral Pot)

http://drane.gaia.com — Fri, 03 Aug 2007 05:38:51 GMT

David: actually, it's not too hard to tell–you just look and see who's arguing for legalization and stuff. You don't find too many non pot smokers doing that.

I'd be careful about stereotyping like that. I don't smoke pot, but I'm all for legalization. OK, I have tried it twice, but didn't enjoy it at all (just gave me a headache). Point is I'm not for legalization because I want to be free to smoke it; I'm for legalization because I think it's the right thing to do for that particular substance.

Cheers,
~G

Re: Doobie Doobie Doo (Integral Pot)

http://monk.gaia.com — Thu, 02 Aug 2007 22:52:29 GMT

"Well, now, I didn't say whether I was a smoker, a joker or a midnight toker, did I?"

I guessed! Or else I brought out my psychic powers. But actually, it's not too hard to tell--you just look and see who's arguing for legalization and stuff. You don't find too many non pot smokers doing that.

Yeah, you can get some insight from it. I remember it helping me get out of the rat race mentality. I would be away from it for a few weeks, maybe several weeks, then I would do a couple of bong hits and think, "Man, I've been stressed out. I didn't even realize it." And I could see how I had been all worked up about things in a way I hadn't before. With the really good pot you can get some experiences above that as well, but in my experience it won't get you as deep as mushrooms, which won't get you as deep as LSD.

But they all come with a price; they all exact a toll. They drain you of energy, and the side effects of pot creep up on you in an insidious way. Some people say that these drugs can leave you with "imprinting," and that kind of makes sense to me. Pot makes you spacey, but as Ken says, you need a clean mind if you're going march up the spiral and into the nondual. I just think there must be a way to deal with stress that doesn't have those side effects.

Re: Doobie Doobie Doo (Integral Pot)

http://undercovertranssexual.gaia.com — Thu, 02 Aug 2007 22:36:54 GMT

Well, now, I didn't say whether I was a smoker, a joker or a midnight toker, did I?

Actually, I do have experience with the plant. I prefer alternative methods for accessing altered states (non-chemical) these days, though.

Regarding Ken not talking about it: I'm into total speculation here, but in my experience, weed is much more likely to be abused on a long term basis because the effects are more subtle than LSD, MDMA or ayahuasca. Trance states and visionary experiences can be induced with MJ, too, though. It's just not as likely. So it may be that he believes it more often used for escapism (rather than inquiry) that he doesn't mention it. It absolutely can be used for inquiry, though.

Re: Doobie Doobie Doo (Integral Pot)

http://monk.gaia.com — Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:40:26 GMT

Ah! Another toker comes out of the closet! :) I love the stuff too (though I haven't smoked it for 10 or 15 years), so I do understand. If I could get it out of my system with a snap of the fingers I'd probably be stoned every night.

Well, I just speak from experience, both as a pot smoker and as a spiritual practitioner, and I find it highly questionable that it has a place in spiritual practice. I don't think the pot smoking babas in India can be counted among the best gurus and pandits. There may be an exception, but I don't know of it if there is. We've heard Ken talk about LSD, MDMA, Ayahuasca, but not marijuana, as far as I know. I think there's a reason for that.

That said, I could be wrong, and a bong hit or two a month might actually do me some good.

Re: Doobie Doobie Doo (Integral Pot)

http://undercovertranssexual.gaia.com — Thu, 02 Aug 2007 20:28:54 GMT

Can't make the italics go away...

David. One study? Out of thousands of studies?

From the article:

"Previously there have been questions over whether cannabis actually causes psychotic illness, or whether people with psychiatric problems self-medicate with the drug. Although the new study cannot conclusively settle the argument, it offers the best evidence short of conducting a full randomized trial, in which participants are given either cannabis or a placebo" (my bolds).

It seems you're biased on this issue. Everyone is, but can you acknowledge that? Also, who is diagnosing "psychosis"? Is this the standard DSM-IV? There is much evidence that many who are diagnosed as psychotic are actually undergoing a spiritual emergency (see Grof and others).

Re: Doobie Doobie Doo (Integral Pot)

http://ikarma.gaia.com — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 04:31:49 GMT

I smoked my share of weed in high school. I don't know how much damage smoking it did to my mind or body back then. But I'm pretty sure that it didn't do as much damage as going to jail for smoking it would have. Lots of things are damaging to our health. More kids wind up in the emergency room from playing sports than from doing drugs. Whatever it's ill effects, they are so mild and uncommon that it's taken 100 years and thousands of studies to uncover a statistically significant finding. Weed may cause harm, or it may help prevent cancer depending on the study you read. I just think that we shouldn't be putting people in jail for doing it.