Gaia: The Integral Pod - Water Cooler - Zeitgeist?

Re: Zeitgeist?

http://aqalicious.gaia.com — Sat, 24 Nov 2007 19:32:57 GMT

Is: There's a shadowy elite of profit-hungry individuals who control EVERYTHING.

~~~

Cool. I had no idea that what looks so much like broad-band chaos was actually under anyone's complete control.

but now that I know...

This is my official, public notification that I would be delighted to be bought off by Grand Unified Megaconspiracy Inc. No way am I stupid enough to want to oppose such all-powerful forces. :P

spiral out,
arthur

Re: Zeitgeist?

http://drs1958.gaia.com — Sat, 24 Nov 2007 15:21:41 GMT

Great review Julian

Here is the mission statement of the film:

Zeitgeist was created as a not for profit expression to inspire people to start looking at the world from a more critical perspective and to understand that very often things are not what the population at large think they are.

Re: Zeitgeist?

http://julianwalkeryoga.gaia.com — Thu, 25 Oct 2007 23:40:53 GMT

i finally did my review of the film - it's here: Zeitgeist: In the Spirit of Paranoia

Re: Zeitgeist?

http://onthetrail.gaia.com — Wed, 10 Oct 2007 14:06:18 GMT

Big hug back to you Mascha! (couldn't find the right emoticon). Love, Frans

Re: Zeitgeist?

http://Mascha.gaia.com — Wed, 10 Oct 2007 06:56:40 GMT

Hi Frans, yes, there are a number of sticking points that would require further drilling if you are into that. But we've both stated our positions more than once, and we're pretty much criminally off topic by now.

A big virtual hug from

moi

Re: Zeitgeist?

http://julianwalkeryoga.gaia.com — Wed, 10 Oct 2007 06:34:36 GMT

it's very bad.

thanks for the link - this piece deserves a nice juicy blog deconstruction - it's a mish mash of so many ill-considered ideas.

ugh - where to begin.....

nicely produced though - fun to watch!

Re: Zeitgeist?

http://shamansun.gaia.com — Wed, 10 Oct 2007 05:12:36 GMT

A little information, alot of assumptions, some decent editing and some amusing media - that's the movie for you. There's some valuable knowledge inside of it, but it's difficult to discern that from ideals and opinions.

Re: Zeitgeist?

http://onthetrail.gaia.com — Wed, 10 Oct 2007 03:50:36 GMT

Mascha, I can't help but read some hostility in your reply. I hope we can both keep this as a discussion, without taking things personally.

Ahem. Is there one right perspective, really? And why is it “right”? Evidently, because it's yours it must be correct.

Right for me...

Look, as I said, we can all share your perspective quite easily. I just don't think it is practical, implementable or even desirable to try and implement your ideals on any scale, grand or small. It's the forcing current cropping up through the back door, so to speak. This energy that exhorts people to be where you think they should be at, a state that has nothing to do with anyone's experienced reality, not even your own from what I gather.

On the contrary - it is highly desirable to have as many people as possible at this stage of "not taking things personally/not resisting what is". In fact - I am convinced it is the only option if we are to survive as a species . I honestly don't know if there are more than a few people there now, I am sure a lot are getting close - me included...

So, as long as the threat has not arrived at your doorstep but only at your neighbor's house or in another nation's territory, you propose nobody waste another thought on whatever is going on anywhere. Right…

No, what I suggest is not to use thought in the service of ego. What I suggest is to look at the situation, accept it as fact without any judgement and use all the energy that position frees up (by not wasting it on ego) and take action from there...

Resistance to what is happening - not just in one's immediate environment but anywhere in the world which exists in thought, can be an action arising from the present.

I don't think it can - any resistance is of the ego - which doesn't exist in the present...

Love,
Frans

Re: Zeitgeist?

http://Mascha.gaia.com — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 22:39:12 GMT

Frans: Let me try to answer your points in the right perspective:

Ahem. Is there one right perspective, really? And why is it "right"? Evidently, because it's yours it must be correct.

Mind is resistance itself - no doubt about it. Am I telling people not to use their minds - absolutely, again no doubt about it.,

And how is that working for you? Any success stories to report that can be verified?

Look, as I said, we can all share your perspective quite easily. I just don't think it is practical, implementable or even desirable to try and implement your ideals on any scale, grand or small. It's the forcing current cropping up through the back door, so to speak. This energy that exhorts people to be where you think they should be at, a state that has nothing to do with anyone's experienced reality, not even your own from what I gather.

You're confusing an ego identity as being non-violent (India and the Brahmanic view) with non-resistance-to-what-is.

No, I was using an example of what happens when unattainably idealistic views are used to oppress and confuse an entire nation.

It takes reality to mobilize me - if there is a threat or an immediate danger the mind stops working - there is no time for thoughts - and action becomes immediate.

So, as long as the threat has not arrived at your doorstep but only at your neighbor's house or in another nation's territory, you propose nobody waste another thought on whatever is going on anywhere. Right...

Action taken from non-resistance can be anything - violence included - if required.

Exactly. We agree!

Our previous conversation about sarcasm was at a different level - you said you everything is in your repertoie - as it is in mine. The question is: how do you use it? Out of resistance to what is or out of action coming from the present?

Resistance to what is happening - not just in one's immediate environment but anywhere in the world which exists in thought, can be an action arising from the present. This present includes the past in form of memories, as well as the future in form of anticipations, speculations. Who is to judge where we are coming from? If it is some exterior voice like yours in this case, it doesn't amount to a hill of beans, realistically speaking. We simply don't have this kind of influence over each other, no matter how long and hard we try to persuade whoever will listen.

m

Re: Zeitgeist?

http://onthetrail.gaia.com — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 22:04:12 GMT

Mascha - I forgot to answer this:

I will also ask if you personally are able to live up to the ideal you propose...

Most of the time - yes. When there is time to think, there is an opportunity to think without resistance and act from there. When there is no time to think action becomes immediate - that's how you avoid getting hit by a car or falling off a mountainface.

Do I always live up to this? No, i have an ego like everyone else and sometimes it thinks for me - always out of resistance...

Love,
Frans

Re: Zeitgeist?

http://onthetrail.gaia.com — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 21:40:08 GMT

Mascha,

Let me try to answer your points in the right perspective:

Mind is resistance itself - no doubt about it. Am I telling people not to use their minds - absolutely, again no doubt about it., except for practical purposes (learning a language, driving a car). Mind is thoughts is knowledge is the past, right? We constantly are using our minds in wanting to become something we are not - resistance, again, which leads to the creation of more problems. It's not an ideal at all to stop doing that - in fact, you can do it right now.

You're confusing an ego identity as being non-violent (India and the Brahmanic view) with non-resistance-to-what-is. These are two completely different things. It takes reality to mobilize me - if there is a threat or an immediate danger the mind stops working - there is no time for thoughts - and action becomes immediate. That's why people get addicted to danger: it forces them to be in the present.
Action taken from non-resistance can be anything - violence included - if required. Our previous conversation about sarcasm was at a different level - you said you everything is in your repertoie - as it is in mine. The question is: how do you use it? Out of resistance to what is or out of action coming from the present?

Frans

Re: Zeitgeist?

http://Mascha.gaia.com — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 21:22:39 GMT

Frans: Exactly my point - as long as we keep reacting to the relative we will create more problems. If we step out of the relative (the man/thought-made world) we can accomplish true change by making the relative less so…Why would you want to stay in the relative - meaning caught in past and future? The present contains everything, including the relative but much much more than that. It doesn't mean that you become powerless, it just means that power has a different meaning - one that isn't connected to the “me” concept anymore. It doesn't mean you stop existing as an incarnate being, just that you stop identifying with everything that seperates you from everything else, in that you realize you're not just connected to everything - in a sense you are everything.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No question, I'm not disputing this view at all. It's just that you are proposing an ideal... while I am addressing the fact that resistance arises in all of us - and what to focus on when it arises as a motivating force for change such as in the global anti-war movement that the Zeitgeist movie is a part of, for example. I will also ask if you personally are able to live up to the ideal you propose and what it would take for you to get mobilized... perhaps a mortal threat to your wife and child?

What I hear from you may be called the "brahmanic view" that leads to a docile underclass: non-resistance from brainwashed masses to their continued exploitation by an "enlightened" caste of the supremely powerful few. This is what brought India to its knees until Gandhi and others mobilized a resistance movement that is called non-violent - but it is that only by comparison.

Frans: We won't need an arsenal that contains resistance once we realize resistance will only create exactly that which it resists.

We've had this conversation before. Remember when you told me that sarcasm (or what you perceived as that) has no place in the mindset of someone as advanced or high (or something like that) as I am? :-)
I said, au contraire, mon cher, everything is in my repertoire, in one form or another. Including resistance. In fact, it could be said that mind is resistance itself. See what I mean? Now, are you telling people to not use their minds?

m

Re: Zeitgeist?

http://onthetrail.gaia.com — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 20:19:02 GMT

Is,

Gotcha - my mistake!

Frans

Re: Zeitgeist?

http://onthetrail.gaia.com — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 20:14:07 GMT

Mascha,

Exactly my point - as long as we keep reacting to the relative we will create more problems. If we step out of the relative (the man/thought-made world) we can accomplish true change by making the relative less so...Why would you want to stay in the relative - meaning caught in past and future? The present contains everything, including the relative but much much more than that. It doesn't mean that you become powerless, it just means that power has a different meaning - one that isn't connected to the "me" concept anymore. It doesn't mean you stop existing as an incarnate being, just that you stop identifying with everything that seperates you from everything else, in that you realize you're not just connected to everything - in a sense you are everything.

We won't need an arsenal that contains resistance once we realize resistance will only create exactly that which it resists.

Frans

Re: Zeitgeist?

http://FireAngel.gaia.com — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 20:06:43 GMT

Frans,

If you allow yourself to feel that anger, disconnected from the story behind it - it will expand your capacities, your "knowledge" of who you are... (my bold)

I like this. Anger arises; it's what we do with the energy and/or the attachment that makes the difference. It can be a very useful powerful energy to facilitate change

Re: Zeitgeist?

http://dawiddahl.gaia.com — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 20:06:20 GMT

"Is,

If you get angry you fall in the trap of ego."

Just to clarify my latest post, I was taking a fictional stance which is that of the movie. Not my personal stance. I thought that was obvious.

Re: Zeitgeist?

http://Mascha.gaia.com — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 19:55:41 GMT

I don't want to take this thread too far off topic, so I'll just say this:

Outrage (anger) is resistance to What Is.... mind-made resistance entirely. But that doesn't mean there is no place for it. As incarnate beings we need it at times and can put it to good use. What you are suggesting is an absolute view that strives to eliminate a resistance movement (internal and external as in decisive, powerful, even destructive action) from the arsenal available to us as we ACT in the relative domains.

m

Re: Zeitgeist?

http://onthetrail.gaia.com — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 19:40:44 GMT

Mascha,

What makes you feel the outrage? Is it the knowledge that today 35,000 children died from hunger? Is it the knowledge that your government is corrupt? Is it the knowledge that your partner is having an affair? (i'm not saying he is - just an example). Fact is that we get outraged because we feel that our identity is being compromised - outrage comes from thought, and it is thought that caused the problems in the first place...Outrage, then, exists at the same level of consciousness as the problem and as such can only feed the problem. A better way of saying that is that outrage can only cause other problems in the process of solving "this" problem.

If we actually want to make a difference we have to step out of that dynamic completely, by gaining the awareness that there is no problem - there is only what is and the first step to change is to accept that without any judgement, and take action from there - no anger involved whatsoever. If we don't we are chasing our own tail...

Now, when you say "the power aspect in all its purity" - here you have a different way of working with it - and you can use any emotion for this. If you allow yourself to feel that anger, disconnected from the story behind it - it will expand your capacities, your "knowledge" of who you are...

Frans

Re: Zeitgeist?

http://Mascha.gaia.com — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 19:13:37 GMT

Frans, I agree -- and also see what you said as a half-truth. The other half is recognizing that outrage can be an empowering soul-movement, an adrenaline boost to help us make necessary changes in ourselves and our environment. Have you ever noticed the power aspect of anger in all its purity as it arises within you? I have worked with this and felt the tremendous expansion of my capacities to contain the internal mobilisation of strength, rather than focusing on the fear of my potential destructiveness.

m

Re: Zeitgeist?

http://onthetrail.gaia.com — Tue, 09 Oct 2007 15:23:41 GMT

Is,

If you get angry you fall in the trap of ego. Nobody controls anything, in the end. Bringing out that message has the potential to bring about change, getting angry just keeps you chasing your tail...

Frans