Gaia: The Integral Pod - Noosphere Nougat - A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

http://aqalicious.gaia.com — Sat, 04 Oct 2008 01:33:28 GMT

Tim, stop with the "family visiting" doomsday scenarios! :P

r.thor

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

http://tely.gaia.com — Sat, 04 Oct 2008 01:15:02 GMT

Interesting! I think this is proof of the existence of the old guy with a beard on a throne in the sky. He's looking out for us and trying to save us from global warming -- because we deserve it and are entitled to that, of course. Shhh -- don't anybody tell Sarah Palin.

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

http://transcend-include.gaia.com — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 17:25:27 GMT

It's hard to find balanced information, as the Right has seized upon this as a reason we don't need to worry about CO2, or anything else, for that matter. (Except "security" and terrorists, of course).

Here's a link to one that I found that seems fairly straightforward. But I want to see graphs, and I'm still looking for those. The article isn't clear about how long it would take for this to start. It seems like it could be a long way off (2040), and far too late to prevent the coming chaos from the warming that's already happening now.

Liz

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

http://tely.gaia.com — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 17:14:37 GMT

Liz, what are sun spots,and what's the implication of not having them?

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

http://transcend-include.gaia.com — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 17:03:30 GMT

Oh, I think we're in for the depression now. I don't think it will take more than a few years for that to begin.

I think the question is timing, like when the ecosphere starts to really get unpredictable versus when the economy tanks. These factors will contribute to exactly when the following renaissance begins.

Another fun fact: no sun spots for awhile. Nobody knows why this is happening, and in previous episodes, gloal cooling has happened. Maybe the lack of sunspots will save us, or maybe the climate will just be really unpredictable. Nobody knows.

But it doesn't matter. It's all going to collapse in some way. There can't be unlimited growth, either in the economy or in nature.

Liz

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

http://transcend-include.gaia.com — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 16:54:15 GMT

I missed that post, Tim. I'll read it now and blast your stupidity when I get around to it, ok?

Liz

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

http://timelody.gaia.com — Fri, 03 Oct 2008 16:32:39 GMT

Did I scare anyone? I thought that would be a provocative post - at least eliciting responses of "oh, stop with the green doomsday scenarios . . ." or "you're wrong."

Family visiting this weekend!

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

http://timelody.gaia.com — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 20:03:10 GMT

I got that idea -which also just makes sense - from an open letter from something like "the working family party" this week re: the "bailout." I don't have any specifics on the idea right now but it's not hardto start thinking of them. (Ex: converting every American public school to, say, solar power.)

Here is my prediction - I'm also basing this on something but it is mostly intuition:

In part because of the bailout/rescue, the economy will get better for a period of time, even to the point where it seems nothing can happen to stop it. Then, at some point, (and I am talking years but not a lot of years) there will be a collapse like never before in history, and no saving it. Because of this, great and historical-to-the-tune-of-evolutionary change will begin to occur. This wll be becasue a.) there is no other choice b.) enough people will demand it and c.) becasue it is the right thing to do, there wont be any going back. This will all be coupled with climate factors as well (such as natural disasters which will not only scare enough people, and prompt/force enough people, but because the cost of these disasters will be a major straining force on the economy, see?). Then, there will be a new "rebuilding" and everything will be different and that's where you'll get you major types of green projects that will change the world and how we (and our children, etc.) live in it.

Perhaps I'm wrong about all of this. But it does at least kind of make sense.

I have a recommendation: take this time as a "warning" or a sign or caution. When the economy begins an upswing again, do not take it for granted. I'm not of the mind of building bomb shelters (anymore ;-) but use it as an opportunity to prepare for potentially hard times ahead. (e.g. a Depression, other unexpected/not-so-unexpected things) If they never come, we'll certainly be none the worse. If none of this is true - that is, if there is no temporary economic recovery - well then . . .

I have no ready answers . . . .

What does anyone else think?

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

http://DouglasRWallack.gaia.com — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 12:50:56 GMT

I don't know if the time has arrived yet, but I would love to see more of the Aerospace/Defense industry do as Bucky Fuller suggested decades ago...

Turn from 'Killingry' to 'Livingry'.

I don't mind a healthy collective immune system protecting us from attack, But...

I do mind the constant 'manufacture' of New and Improved Enemies.

Hummm....

Seems like with effective leadership (Vision) we could muster the political will to spend all that rambunctious human energy on solutions to these silly energy problems and geopolitical games.

Tim,
Your suggestion has my support. Can we make it go viral?

And if there are obstacles...That's what 'Tiggers' are for, yes?

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

http://drs1958.gaia.com — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 16:49:57 GMT

Of what? And where?

Dan

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

http://timelody.gaia.com — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 15:43:32 GMT

This was sinking in for me last night too. There is certainly no "one" cause or single person or group to blame in the end, the factors and circumstances are far too complex. As I understand it, we are still not even sure what caused the Great Depression of the 1930s.

I did read one very cool thing yesterday, which I cannot find now. But, in time of financial crisis large-scale public projects have always provided a boost. In the 1800s it was the building of railroads, in the 30s (here) various New Deal projects, eventually the war, in the 1950s, building highways.

In the 21st Century, the new and necessary large scale public projects will be large-scale green projects, (and if we have any sense, we should start ASAP).

Obviously, this would be a great thing . . .

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

http://julieaerwin.gaia.com — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 08:44:49 GMT

Here's a letter that appeared in yesterday's The Independent in the UK.

The party's over: now the hangover

I have no great sympathy for the modern generation of financial alchemists in the City, but perhaps we should remember that when the good times were rolling we all had our snouts in the trough. It was their three-card tricks that doubled or tripled the price of our houses and kept our pension funds from going into the red, and generated lots of employment.

When we listen to politicians talking about taxpayers as if they were a separate group of people, we should remember that taxpayers, consumers, shareholders, pensioners and producers are more or less the same people, wearing different hats. As taxpayers, having profited from the good times as consumers we should not complain now if we have to pay up to sort out the mess. There is always a mess at the end of a party and we have had quite a party.

There will be, of course, people who got to the party too late and have suffered. They need to be identified and helped, but many of us are sitting on capital gains on our property and windfall shares in building societies which have enabled us to live in a style to which we were never accustomed. It doesn't seem unreasonable, now, to ask us to pay back at least some of the windfall.

A J Caston

Tervuren, BELGIUM

It struck a chord with me and made me sit back and look at my own anger with the greedy b*****ds in the city and reflect on my own greed and the part I've played in this.

Juliee

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

http://timelody.gaia.com — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 00:45:33 GMT

Seems to me that's what's needed is a healthy system of laws/regulations/institutions - LR - operating on a high enough center of gravity to deal with the level of complexity of the challenges facing us (globalized markets, environmental problems, etc. etc.). At this point that probably means second tier. The LR system would have to impose rules on players. Otherwise, players with a low moral center of gravity will just game the system to their own benefit.

Right. But LR economic systems -particularly financial and crediting sectors - do not run or operate, or play, themselves. People - minds, wills, consciousnesses, intentions, both individual and collective -operate such a system. Again I am no expert, but from what I do know, the finite and infinite come into play on this fact; no matter how many laws, regulations or measures of transparency have been put in place, adequate understanding and conscience must play a part, for there will always be a new ways to . . . play that system, beat that system, eventually get into where we are now. That's my take anyway.

This is where I do think second tier will have to provide the answer, or at least the example, and the new rules of the game - both with a systems and a 4Q view of things.

After all, overly complex, opaque and questionable financial products cannot do a thing to harm anyone. People selling them and banking the economy of the entire world on them can.

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

http://drs1958.gaia.com — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 00:39:30 GMT

This NPR broadcast was posted April 29th earlier this year.

It explains how our economy is treated and run like a gambling casino

Recommended

http://drs1958.gaia.com/blog/2008/4/our_confusing_economy_explained_
the_dark_shadow_economy

Dan

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

http://drs1958.gaia.com — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 00:34:04 GMT

Another pertinent article

US 'casino' mentality blamed for planet's meltdown

By ALAN CLENDENNING, AP Business Writer Tue Sep 30, 5:19 PM
ET

Astounded by the U.S. government's failure to resolve the financial crisis threatening the foundations of the global free market, fingers of blame are pointing at America from around the planet.

Latin American leaders say the U.S. must quickly fix the financial crisis it created before the rest of the world's hard-won economic gains are lost.

"The managers of big business took huge risks out of greed," said President Oscar Arias of Costa Rica, whose economy is highly dependent on U.S. trade. "What happens in the United States will affect the entire world and, above all, small countries like ours."

In Europe, where some blame a phenomenon of "casino capitalism" that has become deeply engrained from New York to London to Moscow, there is more of a sense of shared responsibility. But Europeans also blame the U.S. government for letting things get out of hand.

Amid harsh criticism is a growing consensus that stricter financial regulation is needed to prevent unfettered capitalism from destroying economies around the globe.

And leaders of developing nations that kept spending tight and opened their economies in response to American demands are warning of other consequences - a loss of U.S. influence globally and the likelihood that the world's poor will suffer the most from greed by the biggest players in global finance.

"They spent the last three decades saying we needed to do our chores. They didn't," a grim-faced Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva said Tuesday.

Even staunch U.S. allies like Colombian President Alvaro Uribe blasted the world's most powerful country for egging on uncontrolled financial speculation that he compared to a wild horse with no reins.

"The whole world has financed the United States, and I believe that they have a reciprocal debt with the planet," he said.

It's harder for European leaders to point the finger directly at the United States since many of their financiers participated in the recklessness. London was home to the division of failed insurer AIG that racked up huge losses on credit-default swaps, and many reputable European banks disregarded risk to load up on higher yielding subprime assets.

But the House's rejection Monday of the U.S. bank bailout proposed by Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson provoked a sharper tone and warnings that America must act. Though global markets on Tuesday recovered some of the ground they lost in a worldwide slide the day before, politicians from Europe to South America insisted the risk of a further plunge remains high.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel called on U.S. lawmakers to pass a package this week, saying it was the "precondition for creating new confidence on the markets - and that is of incredibly great significance."

In an unusually blunt statement from the 27-country European Union, EU Commission spokesman Johannes Laitenberger said: "The United States must take its responsibility in this situation, must show statesmanship for the sake of their own country, and for the sake of the world."

The crisis also has strengthened voices in France and Germany calling for EU regulations to eliminate highly deregulated financial markets, despite objections from Britain, which along with the U.S. is considered by some to practice a freer form of "Anglo-Saxon" capitalism.

"This crisis underlines the excesses and uncertainties of a casino capitalism that has only one logic - lining your pockets," said German lawmaker Martin Schulz, chairman of the Socialists in the EU assembly. "It also shows the bankruptcy of 'law of the jungle' capitalism that no longer invests in companies and job creation, but instead makes money out of money in a totally uncontrolled way."

The U.S. government's failure to apply rules that might have prevented the crisis is seen as a betrayal in many developing countries that faced intense U.S. pressures to liberalize their economies. In some developing nations, state enterprises were privatized, currencies were allowed to float against the U.S. dollar and painful measures were taken to bring down debts.

These advances are at risk now that credit is drying up. Countries with commodities-based economies are particularly vulnerable since more industrialized nations could reduce their demand for everything from soy to iron ore.

"It doesn't seem fair to me that those of us who endured so much hunger in the 20th century, who began to improve in the 21st century, should have to suffer due to the international financial system," Silva said. "There are going to be a lot of people going hungry in the world."

Just before meeting with Silva on Tuesday, Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez said he believes a new economic order is in store for the planet.

"What's to blame? Imperialism, the United States, the irresponsibility of the United States government," said the self-avowed socialist and frequent U.S. critic. "From this crisis, a new world has to emerge, and it's a multi-polar world."

China's influence in the outcome of all this could be profound because it is a huge investor in U.S. debt. It is already calling for strict new international regulatory systems to apply to globalized financial markets.

Liu Mingkang, chairman of the Chinese Banking Regulatory Commission, said Saturday before a weeklong bank holiday in China that debt in the United States and elsewhere has risen to dangerous and indefensible levels.

The rest of the world is taking notice. Many newspapers made references Tuesday to China's increasing importance in global finance. In Algeria, a large cartoon on the front page of the newspaper El-Watan showed Uncle Sam at prayer: "Save us!" he says, kneeling before a portrait of China's Mao Zedong.

In London, Jane Ayerson, a 20-year-old Irish exchange student, said Europeans share the blame.

"The problem started with America, but banks here have been greedy, too," she said.

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

http://transcend-include.gaia.com — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:19:56 GMT

Jeepdog, You seem to have taken personally what I meant as a general comment.

I've had plenty of people tell me that I'm not entitled to my opinion because I'm a moderator. That is not the case, FYI. But just to be clear: my stating my opinion is in no way telling you (or anyone) that you can't have yours or state it here. You can discuss whatever you like (within the rules, of course, which you always have done) as long as people want to discuss it with you. I apologize if it sounded like I was trying to silence you.

Liz

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

http://aqalicious.gaia.com — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 22:55:40 GMT

timelody: The point here being, I think, that you cannot have a healthy financial sector (LR) without a adequately healthy and properly moral-ethical financial culture (LL). This, of course, then comes to the state of the individual UL. i was fortunate in this little stint to see both sides of the possibility. One the one hand, a group of people who would literally rther risk their jobs and careers, etc. to be able to sleep at night. On the other, those who could care less.

~

Seems to me that's what's needed is a healthy system of laws/regulations/institutions - LR - operating on a high enough center of gravity to deal with the level of complexity of the challenges facing us (globalized markets, environmental problems, etc. etc.). At this point that probably means second tier. The LR system would have to impose rules on players. Otherwise, players with a low moral center of gravity will just game the system to their own benefit.

I don't think we have that, and I think one particular economic game may very well be coming to an unpleasant end. We'll see.

All this talk of games - it put me in mind of Finite and Infinite Games by James P. Carse. When finite games get tough, remembering the infinite game might help keep things in proper perspective...

spiral out,
Arthur

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

http://jeepdog.gaia.com — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 19:38:07 GMT

So you guys can sit around bullshitting about whether or not integral people should vote for Obama, but that's ridiculous. He is our one and only shot. You're sitting around debating the color of the walls when the house is burning down.

If "bullshit" is all that any of this amounts, especially in the eyes of an "integral" moderator, then it is a complete waste of time indeed.

What, exactly, is "wrong" with looking at the entire picture and considering all facts?There was no "debate," at least from my perspective and/or motive. If you perceive a "debate," then just what agenda are you trying to push?

ilicet.

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

http://timelody.gaia.com — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:08:41 GMT

I have a friend who has been in the mortgage business for many years, and has gotten out. I used to think the picture she was painting was unnecessarily grim. But she was and is right. We're not talking about something that can be fixed with money. We're talking about the entire industry being unredeemably dirty to the core. This is a woman who has been both inside the beltway and inside the morgage business, and she had to quit her job with nothing else on the horizon, just to save her soul.

She filed many fraud reports, was a whistleblower, etc. Got no support from any quarter. The things she told me would curl your hair. Worse than what Tim was talking about.

She told me the economy was going to tank several years ago, based on her inside knowledge. She was just a month too late to sell her house and get out of the country. She has now sent her son to live with his father in Australia, because she knows what's going on in Washington and where the country is going. It's very, very bad.

Right, Liz. See, what's interesting is why I was in that mortgage meeting in the first place. My brother worked in the industry for many years until he, like your friend, could stand it no longer either. He wanted to get out. His wife, at the time, said no way, we'll be poor, we need the money, etc. (Of course, a noble cause.) So he decided to begin changing the rules of the game himself. He managed to gather up a handful of other people who could stand the crookedness no longer either and went into business for himself. He also wrote a book called "What Lenders Don't Want You to Know" and began giving workshops - both the book and the workshops revealing all the tricks as well as all the sales tactics used (and they are vast) to get anyone and their brother to think "this is a good deal!"
So this is why I was at this meeting, we were going to open a branch her in Vegas (which didn't work out). When this dude said this, I blew the whistle on him. ("I was just trying to help" he said.)

The point here being, I think, that you cannot have a healthy financial sector (LR) without a adequately healthy and properly moral-ethical financial culture (LL). This, of course, then comes to the state of the individual UL. i was fortunate in this little stint to see both sides of the possibility. One the one hand, a group of people who would literally rther risk their jobs and careers, etc. to be able to sleep at night. On the other, those who could care less.

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

http://transcend-include.gaia.com — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 16:43:03 GMT

She filed many fraud reports, was a whistleblower, etc. Got no support from any quarter. The things she told me would curl your hair. Worse than what Tim was talking about.

Liz