The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

My neet-o keen boyfriend was just, y'know, chatting on the phone with Ken Wilber the other day, and casually asked him, “What is the shadow of Turquoise?” What Ken said was so simple and resonated so deeply, it blew me away. (Talking with Ken is like that.)

The shadow of Turquoise is an inability to see one's own greatness.

OK, so fess up. I know a great number of you who fall into this category. Some don't so much fall into this category as define the bloody thing. In the dictionary of integral, there's a picture of Balder next to “Turquoise shadow.” Come on, you're all laughing in recognition of that one, aren't you?

Tell us about your greatness. What makes you great? I mean it, dammit, I want to hear the unowned greatness in you speak out from the depths of your horribly embarrassed self-sense.

If you don't, I will. It'll be easier if you just co-operate, and nobody will get hurt.

Liz

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

So you want us to boast LOL

Believe it or not this turquoise inability to see your greatness is something I have been thinking about lately. That when you're turquoise you consciously or not so consciously sense that there is something different about you, so you start censoring yourself and thereby withhold your gifts. You also assume that everyone can see the patterns and relationships “out there” that are obvious to you, but of course they cannot.

I'll dig deep and return with some boasting later on :)

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Sure, boast.

If it makes it easier for everyone, couch it in terms like “I've been told this…” or “my mother says…”

I can't think of what my unowned greatness is. I have friends who've pretty much hipped me to all my finer and less fine qualities. It may be that I have some greatness that is, as yet, latent.

Something great about me that I just learned: my daughter's friends' mother (also my friend) told me that their family had been riding along in their car and having a conversation about other people's parents. She asked her kids whose parents they liked most, (Specifically the ones they'd like to continue to know when they are adults) and they said me. They like me because I am not condescending or mean. This was a bit of a surprise to me, as these particular little girls require lots of structure and I'm more firm with them than some other children. I guess kids really do love those boundaries!

See? It's not so hard.

Liz

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

ok, I'm game…..

I have been told a lot that I'm a really great massage therapist.

Rumor also has it that I'm a great human being!

I'm not great at acknowledging these things myself.

But, I'm really, really, really great at recognizing greatness in others!

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Dang it, Liz, here I am feeling comfortable and nicely inconspicuous among my peers, and you have to single me out and embarrass me!

It's true that I tend to be somewhat blind to what I have to offer others.  I've been exploring this in my Diamond Approach work, particularly in relation to Balder's place in the world.  If something exceptional in me is seen, I am usually happy and touched when it is seen, but somehow I still resist fully owning it.

My DA therapist has pointed out several times that I own my voice most as Balder; as Bruce, I remain too self-effacing, hiding myself in a cubicle at work, stopping short of really stepping out into the world. 

I'm not sure if this is a Turquoise thing, though, or a character trait related to specific hurts and holes.

I may try to respond to your question in another post. 

Maybe.

Balder

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Liz,

I found myself sort of scoffing when I read the title of this thread: “Me having a turquoise shadow? Ha! I should be so lucky!”

The truth is, I really do not feel turquoise, at least not cognitively. And I suppose one might say that the green in me still hesitates to even glance at those SD colors. (And now I'm recalling a thread that Balder started back on the IN forum which had people re-examining their lives in terms of Spiral Dynamics – maybe I'll go get the link later – but the few of us participating in that thread never ventured past green!)

In this pod, when I read various posts by you, Arthur, Balder, Pelle, Mascha, Jane, Ramsses, Lauren – to name a few – I am so often blown away by their brillliance, by their richness, their complexity, their wit, and I'm like: what the fuck am I doing here, really? These peeps are post-grad in terms of brilliance and life experience, and I'm really a junior in high school … but shucks, they humor me and let me hang out with them.

But if there's any “golden shadow” projection occurring here, my being blown away means I have not owned my own brilliance. Right? And at this moment I still am not owning it.

Others have occasionally told me that I have a noticeably calming, even a “healing,” presence. I'll blame that on the Spirit and on contemplative prayer. And on my Enneagram type (nine, “the peacemaker”).

Peace (hehe),
Mary

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Do remember Mary, what people have said about your writing skill when thinking of your own brilliance. Is this ringing a bell? Sorry, baby, but you are a classic case of turquoise shadow. Deal with it.

Actually, I recognize something you do that I also do (hey, I'm recognizing my brilliance all over the place. Could be I'm the one who isn't turquoise). You write clearly and concisely. No big deal, seemingly, but I've seen a lot of stuff pass for brilliance that's mostly bullshit. Yes, here, but mostly at IN and other places.

Many many people mistake verbosity for knowledge. This just isn't so. I've seen you capture in one humble post what others have been dancing around for pages of blather. This is pure gold.

Now this is not to say that we need to sit around patting each other on the back. Shadow is shadow for a reason, and we are letting this denial of our greatness get in the way of doing great things. This is at the expense of the world we've all vowed to serve.

This is serious shit. We really do need to look at this shadow and see how it's holding us back.

Who's next?

Liz

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Good one Liz, veeeery provocative,  damnit!

I could have written exactly what Pelle, Balder and Mary did and felt like I was telling the truth.  I have been “told” I was brilliant since my early days.  Often, the comment was followed by “So, what's wrong with you anyway?”  I am deeply driven (since I can remember) by an absolute certainty that I am here to change the world.  I have alternately considered myself as a candidate for “Beasthood” and the Messiah.  I am only a little better grounded now. 

I know that I have done some brilliant, great things:  writing, sports, invention - but I haven't ever “felt” brilliant as a result of it.  The only time I ever feel brilliant, is in relationships, when risk-taking leads to increasing intimacy and expanding awareness.

I have no idea where I am on the SD color scale but I know that I have always loved Teal as a color.  I followedd the “indigo” thing for a while until the hocus-pocus part of it turned me off.  I did resonate with the indigo child thing, answering a resounding YES! to every single one of the classic characteristics. 

Dramaturgically speaking, I know that I am brilliant.  I have studied and practiced theatre and see the “stage” as an astrologer does a chart.  On top of that, I am deeply intuitive and have tremendous confidence in the validity of my intuitions.  I can be fearlessly honest in open forum …  Hmmmm, I am feeling exposed a bit now, time to retreat into my little dark space . … er …ah

best,
MIchael

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

My sister Siobhan said to me a while ago, “the trouble with you is that you cannot see that other people cannot see what you can see.”…..I have been thinking about this a lot, in many contexts. It is similar to what Pelle said. It is about shadows, blindspots, the math of perspectives.

And Mary, as for your post!……it astounds me that you cannot see what all the rest of us can see.

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Now we are rocking, people!

Yes!

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Ok, now I know another way I hide my greatness. Instead of being spontaneous, speaking up and generally engaging people in various ways I sometimes/often choose to be calm, cool and collected. That means I'm only using and displaying 30-40% of my gifts, but it also means that I can project the image that I'm on top of things and that's comforting to me (ie my payoff). If I gave myself a longer leash I would make more of myself and my gifts available and the only price to pay is loosing face every now and then…

So what are some of my gifts? Well, for starters I'm writing this in my second language whereas most of you are not. I'm guessing my third language is better than most people's second :P
I'm good at identifying and summarizing the core ideas from a text or speech. I understand movement and nuances in body language. People generally feel safe with me and trust me. I can teach.

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Mary:
These peeps are post-grad in terms of brilliance and life experience, and I'm really a junior in high school … but shucks, they humor me and let me hang out with them.

WTF? You can't be serious? Just like Liz says you have a habit of offering breakthroughs in threads. Own your brilliance, we won't settle for anything less :)

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Liz … .(or anybody) … do you know what my shadow is? (i.e. go ahead and tell me. Please!)

Crap, I'm probably wording that wrong. (i.e. please tell me how “great” I am … or I am just worried becasue that is my turq shadow … or since I can't draw a conclusion is this aperspectival maddness … AHHH!

Seriously though, there is a really strange Kosmic coinky-dink to all this …

Sometimes -sometimes when I feel uncertain- I do entertain ye old Tarot … .

Everything that kept coming up time and time and time again had to do with shadow … this has confused me. I am still confused … but I wonder if this is it?

One of my biggest worries is coming across like a conceited fuck … incidentally, you don't know how I've agonized over this since my phone call with Ken-and the fact that it will be posted in a couple of weeks. Over and over and over again, I keep repeating to myself that I must have come off as such a conceited fuck …

Is this my shadow?

Help!

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Yes, Tim. You are a conceited fuck.

I just said that so you could really see how it felt to have someone tell you that. You didn't die of embarrassment, right? So no big deal if you are. There are worse things. Being someone with a huge talent who didn't use it would be a worse thing, IMO.

It's a bit awkward, since I didn't really think I was going to be called upon to name other people's shadows, but if I were going to just look at what you wrote and try to divine an answer…I'd say you're afraid your agentic striving is not worthy or appropriate. Somehow wrong. And yet you've done some amazing things through this kind of action, and touched a lot of people's lives, am I right?

You could try doing what Ken was telling Arthur. Look at what you love, and see how you also hate it. Look at what you hate and take the perspective of loving it. Own the part of you that feels that way.

Ken was helping Arthur with this and said “Think how much you love your girlfriend. Now think how much you hate the old bat.” Just so everyone knows, Ripley's gonna kick his skinny white ass if I ever meet him. Stupid old fart.

BTW, I think that for all of us the result of owning the shadow of greatness will be that we will paradoxically be truly able to own our humility as well. Hence, no more fears of being a conceited fuck. We can simply be who is appropriate when necessary. It's just tools in a toolbox; it isn't our true nature.

Liz

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Liz, the “maybe” that ended my last post was supposed to have been followed by a smilie, but I got too busy and lost my chance to go back and edit it in!  Just so you know….I was planning on coming back….

Before I try to own any hidden shadows of greatness or talent, I just have to comment on one thing, since it's so outrageous:  Mary, you're fabulous!  You shine on your own, brightly, and no one is just “putting up with you.”  (If they are, tell me their names and I'll straighten them out.)  As Liz and others have said, you most definitely have a wonderful talent at writing, but also at relating warmly and compassionately with people … bringing the best out of them. 

So…hush!

If I have to name the gifts I believe I've been given stewardship over and which I am called to share, I would say that my strengths are being able to write and communicate clearly, to listen to others, and possibly to teach (individuals at classes and lectures I've given have praised me).  I believe I have a wide range of life experiences which offer me resources to draw on.  And I can sometimes (though less often now than before, it seems) put my mind to creative tasks, find inspiration, and bring forth something new.  I can also dream big (I just have to work on the follow-through!).

Best wishes,

Balder

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Okay, … trying to calm down now ….

Unworthy?

Absolutely. Yet, I don't know that this makes me feel much better. Yikes. Those tarot cards were indeed right. I have a big honking cloud over my head.

But basically, you hit it spot on. And in several different ways.

Michael, are you a playwright or was “dramaturgical” metaphorical?

Mary, oh no dear, how lucky I am to ever be in your presence.


Incidentally, am I supposed to bare my soul? Here it is. After, yes, agentic confidence I sent correspondence to two individuals; one, I suppose it can not be argued that it is for any reason other than to prove my brilliance. The other, … criticizing an aspect of this world famous learned scholars work and replacing it with something  … better … um … that would be my particular ideas on the matter. I feel like I should shoot myself over this … …

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Yes, I am a playwright, and yes, I meant “dramaturgical” metaphorically in the most outrageously confident and global way that you might imagine (Damn, Liz, I'm starting to like this shit!)

I can relate to unworthiness and conceit in the same paragraph, though I think conceit is a word that is losing whatever steam it once had as is the illusion of unworthiness.  Worthlessness is an emotion which I think lies just beneath an attitude of unworthyness.  The emotion begs attention while the attitude is a waste of time. 

Most of us suffer from confused or conflicting motivations.  We all want to help raise the tide and are willing to contribute, its just that most of us still want badges for doing the right thing.  Approval for our brilliance.  It sure was trained into me - oooooh!, those little stickers!!

I had to have the most.  I still like 'em and I still feel ashamed some how that I need 'em.

Oh, make sure you get your will done before you shoot yourself, it would not do to have your beneficiaries end up fightin' over yer stuff.

Just kidding, but seriously, referencing any form of suicide, unless you really mean it is a huge red flag to people like me.  I have spent a good deal of time in that quagmire.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

I think we have to both know that we are special and important, while also knowing that so is everyone else. One doesn't necessarily negate the other, but all add to the greatness of each.

As you know Liz, I don't have this particular problem. Of course, I've always said that I don't succeed because I'm so much better, but that so many others are so average in a relative sense.  What I mean by that, is that while free will is possible, most people don't have it.

rick

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

People – thanks for your encouraging words to me! But please shut up already – cause I'm starting to worry that I was subtly fishing for compliments (the Catholic guilt marches on …).

Liz wrote:  BTW, I think that for all of us the result of owning the shadow of greatness will be that we will paradoxically be truly able to own our humility as well.

This is so true. People often confuse humility with a kind of extreme modesty or “putting one's self down,” but I think true humility is seeing ourselves just as we are – both the greatness and the flaws. The humble person has neither an inflated nor a deflated view of him/herself. And their recognition of what they are enables them to serve and to act more readily.

As to the question of turquoise shadow: I also wonder if some of these flaws / shadows we're noticing in ourselves are more related to temperament or some such thing. Balder wrote: “I'm not sure if this [self-effacingness] is a Turquoise thing, though, or a character trait related to specific hurts and holes.” And Pelle wrote:  “Instead of being spontaneous, speaking up and generally engaging people in various ways I sometimes/often choose to be calm, cool and collected.”  These things may have more to do with introversion / extroversion and those other Myers-Briggs categories (sensing vs. intuition, judging versus perceiving, etc.).

Bruce (I know you are a “Nine” also), I was flipping through an Enneagram book and came across this. Nine's main “cognitive error” is “To seek peace of mind by diffusing their attention and by disengaging from their instinctual energy. They become 'unselfconscious,' mistakenly thinking that their presence, engagement, and input do not matter.”  But here are the attributes of the healthy Nine: ”Accepting, trusting of self and others, easygoing, patient and gentle, but also direct and unpretentious, they have an innocence and simplicity about them, and are genuinely kind people…They make people feel comfortable and have a calming influence, harmonizing groups and bringing people together… Powerful and dynamic when they need to be. Their steadiness, common sense, and quiet strength are reassuring to others. They can easily see other people's point of view, making good mediators, negotiators, and counselors …”  Sounds just like you!

Mary

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Mary,

Let's just say, that within the complex of motivations that sponsor action, action like your earlier post where you admitted uncertainty as to how well you fit in this unfolding turquoise forum, the one you're “worrying about now”, there was a motivation to fish for affirmation.  I can't tell you how many times I have done this.  I know I am still prone to acting on such motivation in very subtle ways by salting into my rhetoric certain catch phrases such as “I suppose I might be wrong about this …” when I don't feel wrong at all.  I feel terribly right and I wouldn't mind it if someone wrote back to tell me, “Oh my God!  There is nothing wrong with your brilliant analysis!  It helped me go to sleep last night.” 
Let's just say that the tiniest sliver of motivation to solicit affirmation was there, ok?
So you are feeling a little guilty, “About what?” I would ask.  If it were me, the emotion would more likely be “less than” or “worthlessness.”  In either case, we know that by conceding to the fishing motivation we risk an emotional experience - the good feeling of approval, affirmation, and belonging will come at some expense to our emotional balance within.  I would suggest that we are subliminally aware of this risk when we take such action.
The need for affirmation is not a negative state while worrying about the emotional consequences is. 
The emotions aren't negative either.  Following them into the shadow while quieting the Voice (which hates this exercise) one can move ever more near the source material of the base source of the emotion - in my case, steady disapproval and lack of affirmation from my father.  To make the journey, it takes a pretty good dose of the emotion to provide the incentive to become willing to sail within.
So here's what I have as help to offer, TA DA! more affirmation!
Since I have been a reader and a contributor to this pod, your postings have stood out in what for me, is a powerfully attractive way.  So attractive, in fact, that I find myself wishing that my own writing could reflect it more.  Here is what it is.
To be concise is a great trait in good writing.  To be incisive is arguably more important.  To be both concisive and incisive is rare indeed.  But, and here's the compliment, to be concise, incisive, and witty at the same time bespeaks a state of being to which we all aspire.
So there.  I hope you feel strongly enough now to get in there and run this shadow to ground.
By the way, what you said about Bruce in your last post?  Well that goes for you too.

best,
Michael

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

I also wonder if some of this comes from the fact that with a greater understanding of the non-dual, the interconnectedness of all things, and really an emergence of a different worldview or mind, that peopel at a certain stage begins to understand the profound effects of our negative habits, and that there is a journey. There's a kind of shame in faltering or stepping off the path as we deal with our lives.
Because of this, people with a certain mind become harder on themselves, because our habit energy, problems, etc… still require a lot of work, regardless of a non-dual realization. I think that the real work doesn't even begin until we understand the post-rational.

Do ya'll have similar feelings?

rick

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Wishing and fishing for compliments and recognition. Oh, what a subject, Mary et al.

Nomali and I had a deep and heartfelt private conversation about this yesterday. Women in particular have to struggle with this mightily. I've been in a very non-agentic mode for awhile, several months, in fact. This is what I've needed to do in order to regroup and survive the massive changes in my life–saving the agency for when I really need to draw on those reserves.

But the cost of this is recognition in an agency-centered world. Where is Ripley8? I miss her sometimes. I miss kicking ass on Integral Naked and the kudos that went with it. I miss being a moderator and the attention that went with it. I miss writing a post that's so good, hitting the “send” button feels like a fucking orgasm.

I feel like the people here know only half of me; I feel invisible. Yet I don't have whatever balls I used to have. I've lost my identity and not the attachment to it that I was going for!

Holy shit, this ego thing is amazingly complicated.

Liz

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

We know much less than half of you.

rick

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Funny, Rick. I originally wrote “half of my public face” and then thought it was to unpretty a phrase and sacrificed clarity for beauty.

Liz

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

I think that if anyone is reading and posting here they're probably at least 2nd tier, and that automactically tells me that they're bright enough. Bright enough to understand most of it at least…… maybe. I think of Krishnamurti, he had to know how great he was…..to know how great we are without it getting in the way.

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

That's a very large assumption. Most of Wilber's ideas could probably easily be co-opted and utiliized by most people.  The deep reliance and need of many people to the details of integral theory, as though it is the truth and not a sign or a tool pointing toward the truth, is evidence of that.

rick

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

If it is a large assumption, it is one that Wilber makes himself. He has said in his writings and to people in seminars that the fact that they read or follow his work, or another integral theorist, makes them second-tier. This doesn't mean we're all on the same level in all lines. It's just a guide, a convenient cutting-off point for utility's sake.

As to most people being able to utilize his ideas, no. If that were true, people would be doing it already.

In fact, I see you making this argument as a case in point of turquoise shadow–this negating of the notion that you're a part of an exclusive group (to which all are invited).

Liz

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

One thing, which I know other people have said and so I know other people in some way feel (or have felt), is that upon reading one of your first Wilber books … suddenly a long sought explanation dawns as to Why I Am the Way That I Am!!!

WHY am I able to get along with everybody but find my place with nobody?

WHY have I had such a history of being excluded for inclusion?

WHY is it that what seems so incredibly and simply and terrible obvious turns out not just to be such an unbelievable chore for … everyone … but that they actual argue and say NO!?

For myself, I have a long and quite painful history of … welcoming everyone, fitting in nowhere. Although, it is also true that I have made specific choices -big choices, choices I have always, not just felt, not just suspected, but time and again experiences that few  would (properly) understand … still I had to make them, in order to sleep at night, in order to be true …

Pardon, I am trying to throw caution to the wind and be naked.

I have come here with some real baggage -and pain - and quite frankly, here, this place, Integral is the only place in the world I actually could reintegrate and re-own this shadow.

So much of shadow is not just defense but survival. Parts of ourselves must disappear in order to - live, survive, get along. I have a good deal of that; that is, that is Integral related. Or Integral has offered the only explanation.

But so too, it is equally as sad that we have to build shadows out of those good parts. Shadows out of the greatness, in the best sense of the word … Yet I do worry … I worry, that I have just let the other get the best of me … . I worry that I am worthless … Perhaps I have just hitched my wagon to a star I can nor will ever reach … because, … well, you get it.

Anyway, stream of consciousness, babbling, hope it has some meaning.

Michael, spot on. Do you know how long I have recognized “conceit” as nothing other than it's opposite -inferiority, unworthiness, feelings and fear of worthlessness? Duh. But I suppose that it the nature of shadow.

I thought it was conceit. But in reality when I say “I feel like a conceited fuck” I really mean, … I am terribly worried that i am worthless, and unworthy.

Don't really want to admit this … but there it is …

One last thing. Feel free to see this not as a bald manipulation for compliments, but as a legitimate asking for help … . from the only people I still hold out hope might be able to give it … or at least just understand.

Thoroughly embarrassed now, but not much reason left to care

Tim

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Tim and everyone, I don’t know whether you can immediately relate to this, but I’ve often noticed that I am ashamed of the best in me.
I tend to hide it, it’s as if being somewhat coarse and “functional” or “with-it” was a requirement to fit into most circles.

Only very few people really get to know the fullness of me, and it’s not a matter of time spent together. Not at all. It’s depth - the inner depths that can be plumbed in an instant with someone who is already there too. This is so rare… and I long for it, but it’s best to have no desires for more. There’s always more

M

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Yes, Mascha -ashamed. (God this is so self indulgent!) But yes, there is a part, or parts, that feel ashamed and I can also tell you without a doubt that I have indeed been made to feel that way -and not just once, and just just by something like one person; by many, people who did not and will never know one another and at least once in something verging like a whole culture. And indeed, so what is the answer? To hide it, to not show it … They talk of this in social psychology: display rules … many which simply naturally arise out of various first tier cultures

And depth … absolutely.  God, the times I can recall to have been told, again, outright not to express it, not to show it, it's not allowed. Did you experience what it's like to bring up depth at a meeting about “customer service?” (As in, all human being/customers deserve your kindness, respect and best service … and it will make you happier too) Mmmm yeah, that goes over good … (I did once make a friend out of it though) . ..

Although what the Hell, let's go all out with self indulgent, see what anyone else has experienced. It hasn't been all bad. I am not unfamiliar with the term “genius.” I have indeed been called such hundreds of times … when that opportunity has been there to actually express that which is usually left inside. I am familiar with both the praise and the pinpoint directed jealousy that comes with people believing, regarding such. Wow, again, shadows. Those who praise in secret recognize the same potential within themselves. Those who outright thwart (and I mean literally) simply don't want their own shadow of inferiority fears exposed. I have never made much of any of this on a personal level. My attitude has always been: well, if this is so, then let me be be the first to tell you it's not really anything so special. In fact, wow, that really is the other side of the coin -and this is why I feel so for Ken Wilber in this regard, for what he has so often had to go through and still does - there was a t least one chapter in my life where I had to make a concerted effort to prove to some that I was indeed a ordinary human being. And it didn't work out too good either … . One way or another, you just end up with very few real friends, despite the fact that you love everyone …

Someone on one of the concalls thanked Ken very simply once for “putting himself out there” … . it made him cry … . I identify with what those tears mean.

Okay here's to self indulgence and hoping it inspires more of you be so.

(Yikes!)

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Michael –

Wow. I am blown away by that last post of yours. There I go, being blown away again. Phew! Leaves me with much food for thought, your subtle insights about “worthlessness,” soliciting affirmation, approval, etc. Indeed these are issues of mine. So this time instead of saying “shut up already,” I'll let the nourishment in and say a simple and heartfelt: Thank you.

Liz –

I miss Ripley8 too! My heroine! Kickin the asses with all the right sasses! But it's okay for her to slumber from time to time, methinks. She's done a lot of hard work in the past few years, and ain't nothing wrong with her getting some R & R, some beauty sleep. 

Liz, I got to know you online first – where I saw you as the lioness, the Amazon, the brassy-assed Tank Girl. Then when we got together for that first road trip to Boulder, and I saw the delightfully tender, lighthearted, sweet, and nurturing soul that you were … I'm going to say it yet again: I was blown away. Currently you may not be online quite as much as back in those days, but when you are I'm seeing this sympathetic, nurturing part of yourself raising its lovely head more often, and it's as if some kind of balance is working its way through – and I say balance because Ripley has not really completely disappeared. She turns over in her slumber, rouses, and offers a whack upside the head now and again. With love.

Agape,
Mary

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Deep bow to all of you. I feel a bit of the sanga that we used to have at IN resurfacing…with new faces and a new dedication to awakening forming. Bless you all for being.

Yes, Tim, is all I feel I can say. We're with you. Yes to you, too, Michael.

Mary, you nailed it. Ripley's tired. I felt tears welling up when you gave her permission to rest. She is so tired of being strong. She deserves a rest.

Liz

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Tim and Mascha, I resonate deeply with what both of you are saying. Getting along with everybody and finding a place with nobody.

And Liz, I hear you on letting the strong part of you rest. It may not be something I'm doing online (you guys be the judge) but it's certainly something I am doing, or trying to do, IRL. I've been strong for 31 years, and let me tell you it wears you out in the long run….

Michael, your level of insight into the shadow is brilliant, thank you for sharing it in such a loving way.


Hugs all around,

Pelle

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

“As to most people being able to utilize his ideas, no. If that were true, people would be doing it already.”

Yeah, but I think that it's more a matter than no one has really heard of any of this yet. It's not on anyone's radar, so to speak.  Its a very conceptual model, with hierarchies and colors, etc…  One must have a certain mind to see the deeper meaning, but not to exploit the model. 
Ken has expressed that he won't let that happen to II, but I don't see how he could stop it.

AQAL doesn't have a developed culture theory, which makes it vulnerable here.

Example:

I'm studying to be a political anthropologist, and I read ethnographies all the time about elites subverting various models and frameworks in order to justify the status quo, or gain more power.
In Chile, recently, a poli. anthro. wrote a paper about how the elites of that state have co-opted and subverted Habermas's ideas, of which Wilber is a big fan, in order to justify the fact that many of the power structures from the dictatorship have been carried over into the new democracy.
Which helps us understand a great truth: No knowledge is neutral.

rick

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Wow, Chris (and hello, I don't think we've met)

As I read through this thread, that poem was in the back of my mind, just a couple of lines from the middle. It is so appropriate here, thank you for posting it.

Damn, you made me say something, do I have to play now?

I am good with complexity, especially at work where I have to guide staff through dealing with other people's greatest trials. I am instinctively good at being able to see everyone's perspective, in grasping why people do what they do and behave as they behave. I know people around me trust my judgement on these things, becuase I get it right so often, but when praise comes my way I tend to shrug it off as `only doing my job`.

I hide what talents I have behind humour..it's my defence. I was a clever kid at school who got singled out a lot by teachers (apparently I produced the highest IQ score my primary school had ever acheived-oh God I never say that out loud). I didn't want to e different, so I stopped working and basically blew my education. Finally graduated in my 30s.
 
Actually I see Tim hiding behind humour a lot too, it's a sort of self deprecating thing.

I am reminded again of my fear, nay terror, at the Boulder trip..I wouldn't have missed it for anything, but oh dear I was so scared….I wasn't young, beautiful, thin, clever or spiritual enough to be in the same room with these guys. So mary I can totally identify with that, I do remember wondering if you all just fely sorry for me because I live in such a cold wet place :-)Thought I needed the sun……………

Yet when we did get together, I think it took about 30 minutes to integrate the physical presence with the people already known. Mary's gentle presence just radiates calm, but it hides a mind that's so deep and fertile and a wit so damn funny.

Liz's gentleness and vulnerability knocked me sideways, we had established a fairly direct style of ripping it out of each other and I thought I knew her. I did, insofar as we could be both be pretty free with the verbal mucking around, knowing the other would understand the intent and not take offence. But that insight and gentleness..I'm a bit of a tough old bird, not easily given tp emotion in public, but I had some stuff going on at that time. I don't think I'll ever forget Liz just looking at me across the room, coming over and hugging me (I'm not a terribly touchy person)….it was like years of walls collapsing, I cried like a baby.And she just stood and held me while I did it. And then it ws gone and we were back to bullshit again………such a gift, Liz, such depths to have in one's friends.

Oh Bruce, I haven't met you in person, but if ever this world produced a natural teacher it is you. Maybe you don't get feedback enough because you tend to be so complete in responses that there is little left to say.

God, this is turning into a huge lovefest, someone pass me the sick bag, quick ;-)

Liz

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Awww, Liz, you red-haided ol' marshmallow.

Our time together was so brief. But it was enough to really connect on a level that simply can't happen unless you're in the same room with someone.

Next gathering, I hope some more shy folk decide to join us.

Liz

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

I thought this was apropos.

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.
Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.
It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us.
We ask ourselves, “Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?”
Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God.
Your playing small doesn't serve the world.
There's nothing enlightened about shrinking so that
other people won't feel insecure around you.
We are all meant to shine, as children do.
We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us.
It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone.
And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give
other people permission to do the same.
As we're liberated from our own fear,
our presence automatically liberates others.

~by Marianne Williamson

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

I thought this was apropos.

Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate.
Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.
It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us.
We ask ourselves, “Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous?”
Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God.
Your playing small doesn't serve the world.
There's nothing enlightened about shrinking so that
other people won't feel insecure around you.
We are all meant to shine, as children do.
We were born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us.
It's not just in some of us; it's in everyone.
And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give
other people permission to do the same.
As we're liberated from our own fear,
our presence automatically liberates others.

~by Marianne Williamson

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

You know what? I am going to slightly disagree with Ms. Willianson on this.

This represents the perfect very, very healthy Green spiritual attitude. Thusly, I agree, for it carries forward to be included beyond.

But what Ms. Williamson misses, is the next level, that of holarchic agency in communion. It's all well and good to realize that you are Powerful beyond measure… on the interior … but it sure sucks ass to have to keept it there … to be able to share it with no one … . and it's just not as simple as preaching the one right way/one right answer first tier gospel (of which there are many and this is one of them).

I am not afraid of that interior power. And I suspect few other here are either -as encouraging as those words are. Been there, done that, long ago.  Now what?

I am afraid of the horrendous sadness and isolation that inevitably brings … and incidentally, care about others (including their interior powers beyond measure) just a bit too much to tell them all about mine … or theirs … which they, incidentally, are afraid of for a Reason and it should be kept that way …

Marianne. people are afraid for a reason.

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Actually, I want to appologize to you Liz for trying to take your thread in another direction.

I think that your Wilber's right about the Turquoise shadow, and I think that it's a natural reaction. I've never had feelings of hypocracy or shame over doing or thinking in ways that would be no big deal when I was younger. It's a matter of raising the bar. When your a 4.0 student getting a B+ is shocking, yet to others its wonderful.
We all have to see these thoughts and feeling for what they are, and move on, but we shouldn't try to deny them or set up mental blocks when we feel that way, because that is more of the same dualistic thought.

THe whole thing is compounded when a person is in acadamia, because your always comming across revolutionary or famous people within your discipline, and I at least, am always left with the feeling 'well of course, that's obvious. Those connections are common sense!' But then I realize when talking to other people that the connections aren't so obvious.

rick

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

  I feel that a natural inclination of Turquoise is to have no inclination to ask the question 'what color am I?'  There is already this deep rooted realization of 'being one with the all,' that is no longer just a peak state, but an actual awareness that embodies one in life.    So to ask a question that has already been realized seems pointless and Egotistical. 
  But being aware of ‘being one with the all,’ only serves the Upper Left and Right Hand quadrants.  What about the intersubjective nature of the Lower Left?  In facing others and culture, one needs to remember that Turquoise embodies the higher reaches of awareness, the higher reaches of development, a closer representation of the Omega Point of being human. (The exponential trend of Stage Development leads me to believe that Turquoise is not far from this Omega Point.)
  This is where the shadow arises.  As for myself, I am totally outward (in that I hide nothing) and attempt to be truly authentic in that openness.  But many people reject this authentic openness, they don't trust it and they don't believe it because they don't know it. 

  Only through recent understanding of Stage Development and a 'skillful means' approach have I been able to 'know what color clothing to wear,' in dialogue with others.   Before, I wore whatever color I was at (which traditionally has been higher than my peers.)   This provoked a feeling of what many others have felt as well; uncomfortable, out of place and totally misunderstood.  Now that I am learning to apply skillful means, I can be outward and comfortable, because I know what color to wear.    Now I can actually see this higher level awareness having a positive effect in the LL quadrant.
  This is where I feel it is vital for people at Turquoise to know the Spiral and know where they are at on the Spiral.   This is essential in terms of being able to put it into language, thought and apply themselves to all 4 quadrants.  We may embody it internally in the UL, and it may give us a Universal understanding (right quadrants) but if we cannot apply it to our culture (LL) in a healthy way then Turquoise is not serving all four quadrants.

   The only thing that wants to destroy the Ego is the Ego itself.  If it seems Egotistical for Turquoise to ask the question, “What color am I?” then maybe it’s really the Ego that prevents us from asking the question.  By not asking the question we are not truly identifying ourselves as Turquoise, and therefore not allowing Turquoise to serve all four quadrants, especially where it may be needed most, culture.

   This IMO, seems to hold validity to what Ken says “The shadow of Turquoise is an inability to see one's own greatness”

Namaste, B.

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

I really like this assesment bikewater.
In the last few years, I've become more and more uncomfortable with the whole color thing. I understand the conceptional need to express things which can't be expressed, but I wonder if this can also hinder some people, by reinforcing the idea that they are anything in particular. To say, “I am a color,” especially a color associated with subtle and then non-dual states of being, is tantamount to saying, “I am enlightened.” This is not a statement that I've ever heard any of my teachers or anyone else say.
It seems to me that to say that you are something, anything in particular is inherently dualistic.

Do people get caught up in this stuff, or am I thinking it's worse than it is? I'm thinking about my experience in a zen hall, in which we are taught one of the hardest things to do is to finally forget the teaching. The Dharma itself can be what hinders one the most in the end, by causing the delusion of an external refuge. Within Buddhism there is so much ordering: the 4 truths, 8 fold path, 5 senses, 5 precepts, the 12 chain wheel of samsara, the 128… etc… Some people revel in knowing all of these categories and numbers, etc… but they should never confuse them as representing truth or even the the true teaching. Usually it's just monks that learn the whole system by memory, while the rest of us learn it all and see how everything fits with the whole and is interconnected, but it's not necessary or even healthy to dwell upon these numbers. To do so can be damaging.
When one truely understands AQAL, they understand it all at once, and really only need to use the details when communicating with others.
The constant checking of where on the spiral one is can cause the delusion of acting in a good or bad way or an apprehention that one isn't where one wants to be, or the desire to become the next color or wonder what color another person is, etc… all of these things are not condusive to a correct state of mind.
I have never thought about what color I am. To know what color one is doesn't change ones mind or worldview, or how they relate to the spiral. How they relate to the spiral, is just another way of say, 'how they relate to the Whole.' If you ever think to yourself, “ok, now I'm turquoise, and therefore I must interact with others this way, or now I must be green and now blue, or even now I must be turquoise like this,” then your already lost.
It seems best to think about this conceptional framework in dealings with other people, in order to cultivate more patience, understanding and compassion.

Perhaps it might just be a hinderance to me, and not a problem for others? It seems as though people here talk a lot about ideal situations, and not the actual way that our minds tend to lean day to day.

rick

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Hello B.likewater and Rick, first time I get to speak to you. Ta da!

Okay, I also find it impossible at this point to identify myself as anything in particular for more than a few seconds - just as long as it takes for the thought to arise and disappear. To say ‘I am this, but not that’ is merely a linguistic convenience but not the truth of my internal experience. I honestly feel that every thought, every emotion, every perspective, every conceivable action is within my range, at least as a possibility. And if I haven’t thought-felt-done something for a long time, it doesn’t mean I no longer have access to it. That includes the absolute best and worst traits imaginable.

Is it arrogant to say so? Am I insanely conceited? Where can I say this and mean it, without alienating people I care about more than they’ll ever know?

I’m not asking for a formula. In my view, the majority of people writing here are beyond formulas, beyond looking for directions. They already see all directions and they can fly anywhere in split-seconds, leaving no trace for anyone else to follow.
Notwithstanding what Ken says about the turquoise shadow, it seems to me that most people here are aware of their greatness. It’s just so freaking scary to be spontaneously YOU, without premeditation, without calculating any of your moves - - in other words, free, with no scaffolding to hang onto when the disapproval comes, which it inevitably does. When you lose your job because you don’t try hard enough to fit your circle into their sqares. When you’re ostracized, run out of town, like Tim was once…

Tim,
would you clarify what you meant when you kept saying, “Yikes, this is so self-indulgent”? Is it ego-self-indulgent to expose deeply personal grapplings with being ashamed of the best in ourselves? At least for me, offerings straight from the heart and guts are vital parts of forum discourse. More life-giving and certainly more memorable than all the pseudo-objective generalizations and stereotyping that goes into the ten-thousand theories we also like to bandy about.

Group hugs ***

M

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

“I honestly feel that every thought, every emotion, every perspective, every conceivable action is within my range, at least as a possibility. 

Is it arrogant to say so? Am I insanely conceited? Where can I say this and mean it, without alienating people I care about more than they’ll ever know?”

No. I think that you expressed all this perfectly. It is because you don't think or yourself as anything in particular, or isolate yourself as 'this as opposed to that,' that you are able to know that you are capable of anything. I think, and maybe our Christian members can clarify this if I'm off base, that this is what Jesus ment when he said, “resist ye not evil.” 

In saying that you have all possibilities of reality available to you, at least all those available to any other human, you have done the true opposite of arrogance, because you realize that your also capable of the worst available to human nature.

I'll have to defer to Tim or Pelle in regards to this question, because they're better at the details of Integral theory:

When is the  point, second-tier on the spiral in which an individual incorporates the whole of the rest of the spiral? I don't mean become aware of it, or have compassion or right understanding of action, etc… but truely incorporate in a totally irrational way. It would be non-dual no?

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Rick/rholden:
When is the  point, second-tier on the spiral in which an individual incorporates the whole of the rest of the spiral? I don't mean become aware of it, or have compassion or right understanding of action, etc… but truely incorporate in a totally irrational way. It would be non-dual no?

Indigo or third tier (very undifferentiated territory at the moment). I hate to give such a “vertical up the spiral answer” in this thread, especially after your exchange with Mascha, but you asked so this my own intuitive answer and from how I understand Ken he thinks the same. I'm not sure I would use the word irrational like you do above, but I understand what you mean.
Feel free to discuss this question further with me and others but let's open a new thread in that case.


Mascha, thank you for being you and sharing it with us.


Blessings and all that,

Pelle

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

A few belated words.

This is not meant to be a criticism, at all, but why would the greatness of Turquoise have anything to do with our individual egos or smaller brilliances? I, personally, am not ashamed of who I am; I know how to take a compliment and feel no guilt and little embarrassment about my skills or gifts or accomplishments. For me this is merely part of psychological health. I have no qualms about recognizing the gifts I see in others, so why would I have any problem doing the same for myself?

Anyway, it's a truism to say that false humility is the mere inverse of conceitedness; those who are constantly self-deprecating and self-effacing end up demanding just as much attention from others, as those around them attempt to support their seemingly small egos.

(And now I worry that the above will be taken the wrong way. So I do want to say that I find this whole thread beautiful! There's such sweet honesty, such a beautiful supportiveness, and I would never dream of saying there's anything remotely wrong or off about any of your comments or lovely, painful revelations.)

So again, I think all this “recognition of one's own greatness” is wonderful, but it's far from unique to turquoise. I'm inclined to believe Ken is right, but the recognition of greatness feels to me that it ought be recognition of transpersonal greatness, not our own local traits. I'd even venture that it's more than greatness; it's the recognition of the deep abiding perfection of the world, of the inevitability of process and the impossibly unique and necessary role we each play in that unfolding, in the beautiful, ongoing, delightful evolution of spirit, including the horrors of destruction and the wonders of emergence. That is, to me, what recognizing greatness is about.

A few others things.

timelody wrote about “the horrendous sadness and loneliness that [the recognition of being Powerful beyond measure] inevitably brings.” Isn't this too as much an illusion as the “fear of inadequacy”? How can you feel disconnected from all that You are? People are afraid for a reason, yes, but that reason is merely another construct, another egoistic, monkey-mind concern. And I actually think that Williamson does understand this.

I think Bikewater and holden's posts are important, or at least I resonate, deeply, with a great deal there. I haven't put much thought into my SD or Wilberian color either. I can see differently colored pieces of myself (and I know I've been called all shades of green by this group ;) ), but to identify as one particular hue doesn't make sense for me, personally.

holden writes: “It seems best to think about this conceptional framework in dealings with other people, in order to cultivate more patience, understanding and compassion.”

Yes. Exactly.

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

I just wanted to note that inability to see one's own greatness was a “positive” turquoise shadow element Ken spoke of; a “negative” one involved death - although I'm no longer clear on exactly what he said about that.  I think it would manifest as either obsessive fear of death (in whatever forms) or various types of counterreaction.

A quote from SES sums the basic situation vis-a-vis death up well:

eye2
Originally uploaded by adastra.

“The consolations are gone; the skull will grin in at the banquet; it can no longer tranquilize itself with the trivial. From the depths, it cries out to gods no longer there, searches for a meaning not yet disclosed, still to be incarnated. Its very agony is worth a million happy magics and a thousand believing myths, and yet its only consolation is its unrelenting pain - a pain, a dread, an emptiness that feels beyond the comforts and distractions of the body, the persona, the ego, looks bravely into the face of the Void, and can no longer explain away either the Mystery or the Terror. It is a soul that is much too awake. It is a soul on the brink of the transpersonal.” (p. 272, SES)

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Thanks for that Arthur, a worthy consideration indeed.

best,
Michael

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

This is how Ken reaches straight into my soul and drags out multiple recognitions, often too tangled up to verbalize. But I’ll give this batch a try.

Ken:

“……. it can no longer tranquilize itself with the trivial. From the depths, it cries out to gods no longer there………. …….looks bravely into the face of the Void, and can no longer explain away either the Mystery or the Terror……..” (p. 272, SES)

A decade ago, in a dream, I was sitting across from my then boyfriend in a high tower of some slightly ruined palace. We were at a table designed for playing an ancient, incredibly intricate and demanding board game. He was moving one of the precious carved figures in his arsenal to knock out mine. Perhaps he was about to defeat me in this round - I can’t recall. Only that a colossal wave of world-weariness arose in me, it just swept me off my seat. Utterly hollow and tired inside, I turned around to leave, but saw no door, only a black, gaping Void… waiting, stretching into infinities.
I knew there was nothing left for me to do, so I simply walked into it.

With that, I awoke. Back to my gamey self and all the rest. Some dream, huh? Jeez, how much more obvious can the symbolism get?! And when will I be able to establish myself in That for good?

Still no luck as of today… A businessman I was once working with, said it well: “Yeah, yeah, we live with one foot in this world, the other in the abyss.”

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

hi all

a tad naked ramble as i peek in from the eye of my current whirlwinds
…please forgive my clumsiness …i am quite engaged, tired, and i lurk a lot
…yet all yalls compel me from time to time

a few first things i think of to ask
is how can we find better ways to ask around the same question?
…such as…does exactly who have a turquoise shadow of a what? huh?

that aside…
i do feel that this kind of shadow may have someone to do with fear or avoidance of fame and attraction

and a sense of being pushed/pulled onto the stages and fields of transpersonality
…a sense of kicking and screaming that goes with it

i recall how often i feel like the elephant man, or an alien from space
who is being put on display … sometimes i hate being so darn fascinating to people
and so i selfishly keep my stories to my self

meanwhile…an abundance of hope and vision is caught like a furball in my throat
and the healing conclusions are how it would be wrong to keep it all to my self
…even if it attracts unwanted attention, or misunderstandings of my intentions

..many want to be near me, yet few can avoid various state shifts when i manage to mutter on about

so…a certain sense of feeling toxic
as well as a sense of wanting to 'move as a tree moves' so as not to disturb all the critters on the branches

and so i am afraid of hurting people that way
without having done a more thorough examination of my own consciousness

reminds me of how in some myths, there is that character who has a foot in 'both' worlds
…equally feared and revered, terrifying and adored

and if one can lead and influence, as it seems…then one may want to come from the highest place i can…or not do it at all

a different kind of practice, fer sure…which for me…includes a spiritual approach to retail sales, for example

so also, along with avoidance, i can imagine, perhaps the turq shadow can also involve the addiction to being 'attractive' or otherwise capable of stirring up so much
…and the trouble/adventure that comes with that kind of thing

or how all our previous categories of shadows tend to blend into one great wound
…a much clearer larger picture of my own and the collective shadow

issues of sheer magnitude…and the natural incapacity to describe what you are experiencing

the metaphors lose their luster, and we become quite literal once again…but wholly different

the more transpersonal we become, the less localized our sense of self may be
in some sense…we lose certain capacities and become happily lost in boundlessness

we wholly find our selves, in body and soul, in the wide wide fields of other

ya know (or maybe not)…those occasions when the bounds of your self sense bleeds out into the crowd
and deeply felt ways in which every person you meet stains you beautifully forever

i often ask…how dare i swim the sea of soul so freely as i do…
a whole new set of ethical implications comes into play, i think

in terms of being and becoming consciously IN-fluentual and popular
in all the cults and cultures and all the various schools and circles and worldviews we encounter

as if one must develop the capacity to translate, or not speak at all
..or perhaps even babble with a purpose

i dunno

also, i have never had so many people in my life i call friends
my longing for each of you and all of them is a huge place of suffering for me
…and my inbox and personal interactions often tells me this is not one-sided relationship

but if i find my self instantly falling in love with everyone i meet
then i am somewhat doomed to long for all my lovers to some depth and degree

tho…it might be better ask Bono such questions about turquise shadow…or MLK jr
or Mother T

…not sure exactly what part of them, but something about them sure seems quite pale blue

but too…im really glad typology came up in this thread…even for a moment
and i do wish it would come up more often here and there

cuz how a 5ish type begins to play in holism and integration may look nothing like how a 1 or 9 plays there…and i am convinced we mostly pretty much blow it almost completely by not appreciating the texture of typology

the styles and ways in which we integrate and move into holorchical being seems more exotic…not less…and becomes increasingly exaggeratingly so

the myriad ways in which we blossom seem to fan out quite radically

a different sense of measuring, it seems
different qualities to pay attention to, appreciate, and learn from

it even seems as if perhaps preparing for the second half of life (leaving) has something to do with it

…

hell…i dunno
standing on the brink of descension is such a subtle leverage point
from how it takes a lot less energy to fall than it does to climb
which is a whole different conundrum, it seems

+ODD

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Always a pleasure when you drop in, Toad.

This particularly struck me:

“so also, along with avoidance, i can imagine, perhaps the turq shadow can also involve the addiction to being 'attractive' or otherwise capable of stirring up so much
…and the trouble/adventure that comes with that kind of thing”

It resonates deeply. I can see this in myself and so many of us. Yes, thanks for that.

And this:

“also, i have never had so many people in my life i call friends
my longing for each of you and all of them is a huge place of suffering for me
…and my inbox and personal interactions often tells me this is not one-sided relationship

but if i find my self instantly falling in love with everyone i meet
then i am somewhat doomed to long for all my lovers to some depth and degree”

Are we not all longing for that Self we know but don't recognize? Louis was mourning a lost relationship on IN today, and this also speaks to that. Until we heal that central rift, find that knowledge that we are looking for nothing that isn't (always)already here in ourselves, we are doomed to longing and attachment to longing.

Or maybe you weren't talking about that at all.

Liz

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

thanks Liz

ribbit
ribbit

Or maybe you weren't talking about that at all.

dont think so, but i'm not sure

i feel its more of a be-longing, i guess
or a way of being-as-longing
a kind that i would say that i would certainly hope it never goes away
i find a certain grounding comfort that it will always be somehow true

ah…Louis…im really glad he is with us

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Todd, ye aulde soul,

astonishing, the whole thing. I recognize the voice.

“the more transpersonal we become, the less localized our sense of self may be
in some sense…we lose certain capacities and become happily lost in boundlessness

ya know (or maybe not)…those occasions when the bounds of your self sense bleeds out into the crowd
and deeply felt ways in which every person you meet stains you beautifully forever.”

Say more here, will you? We’re nothing but ears.

M

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

ha…thanks, M…much gratitude for the hospitality

Say more here, will you? We're nothing but ears.

well…thank you
and of course, this is where i typically go quite silent and perhaps even vanish for awhile

our soul is as shy as it can be ferocious, it seems to seem

and so…mostly all i come up with is say what?
…if that makes sense 

as i am currently trying to find a way to be here again

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

+odd said:

“and so…mostly all i come up with is say what?
…if that makes sense ”

Makes complete sense.

And yes, the soul is shy and ferocious, I just hadn’t thought of it that way. Thanks,

M

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

I DISAGREE.  I don't think Turquoise's inability to see it's greatness is Turquoise's shadow.  It's a cop out of an answer.  Why?

Let's look at one of Green's shadow, the Mean Green Meme.  For MGM to come about, one must be familiar with multiple perspectives and the postmodern revolution.  It is a cutting out of a Green part of yourself that creates the MGM.  You cut out your discriminating, segregating side to protect the rights of everyone.

One of Orange's (and Green's) shadow is Flatland.  For Flatland to come about, you must have popped out of Amber (Blue meme) and started questioning your values.  Flatland is a result of a lack of interior (left hand side of AQAL) and spirituality.  If you looked at it as that part of Orange that was cut out of itself, it would be it's shadow (although for most people, they didn't project that part into a shadow, but simply didn't develop it).

So, just HOW does 2nd tier thinking cause it's inability to see it's own greatness arise?  It's not an artifact of 2nd tier thinking.  It's an AMBER shadow.  Remember when you first popped into Amber?  You had to be self-effacing and you cut out that narcissistic, self-serving RED part of you.  You just didn't fix your Amber shadow, so naturally, it will affect all of your developmental levels.  But, to fix it, you have to fix your Amber shadow.

If I am wrong, please tell me how you would use Turquoise thinking to fix it?  What part of Turquoise is missing that needs to be integrated?  This problem indeed exists, but it's a cop out of an answer, because it's not a product of 2nd tier thinking.

I mean, even a 2nd tier person can still have phobias, and those are not Turquoise.

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

This just came to me.  I propose that Turquoise shadow would be something like having a domineering need to “fix” everyone by pushing them all into 2nd tier.

Or a dominating need to remake all the 1st tier levels and push it onto others fanatically.

Hmmmm… So Turquoise's shadow could be a denial of your lack of acceptance of your 1st tier makeup, and thus projecting it onto others who need to be fixed?  But then again, these could also be argued back down to 1st tier issues, unless the scope is 2nd tier.  What do you folks think?  Did I nail some actual Turquoise shadows?

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Alan: So, just HOW does 2nd tier thinking cause it's inability to see it's own greatness arise?  It's not an artifact of 2nd tier thinking.  It's an AMBER shadow.  Remember when you first popped into Amber?  You had to be self-effacing and you cut out that narcissistic, self-serving RED part of you.  You just didn't fix your Amber shadow, so naturally, it will affect all of your developmental levels.  But, to fix it, you have to fix your Amber shadow.

If I am wrong, please tell me how you would use Turquoise thinking to fix it?  What part of Turquoise is missing that needs to be integrated?  This problem indeed exists, but it's a cop out of an answer, because it's not a product of 2nd tier thinking.

~~~~~~~~~~

Hi Alan

When the conversation with Ken is posted on ISC, it's well worth listening to.  He actually explained that particular aspect of tuquoise shadow as being something that happens to people transitioning from egalitarian green into turquoise.  I would also imagine it could work like this: I see the complexity and competence of others at this altitude, but find it hard to recognize in myself.  I see it “out there” - that complexity in others or in the world itself - but not “in here” - where, of course, it must also exist, otherwise how could I recognize it “out there?”  In fact, I know very intelligent and competent people with a turquoise center of gravity who have exactly this shadow.

As you say - and as Ken observed - you can bring along shadow elements from all the other levels as well.  We also have shadows involving awareness of death as I mentioned in an earlier post.  And…

Alan: This just came to me.  I propose that Turquoise shadow would be something like having a domineering need to “fix” everyone by pushing them all into 2nd tier.

Or a dominating need to remake all the 1st tier levels and push it onto others fanatically.

Hmmmm… So Turquoise's shadow could be a denial of your lack of acceptance of your 1st tier makeup, and thus projecting it onto others who need to be fixed

~~~~~~~~~~

I would agree - and incidentally, Ken, in a subsequent ISC dialog, talked about arrogance as another aspect of turquoise shadow; I think that is the kind of thing you are talking about.  It has certainly been a problem with me in the past, but only because I'm surrounded by limited 1st-tier mentalities who need to be uplifted by my superior…oops, maybe I still have some work to do on that…  Seriously, though, I'm much better that way, although it may still be a bit of an issue.  The emphasis for me now is, I'd rather spend a lot of time hanging out with people who can see the same complexities of the world as I do.

Which reminds me of another point - I was going to respond to your other question about how to use Turquoise thinking to fix it…I'd say by doing a lot of shadow work by whatever means; work with an integral therapist like Robert Augustus Masters if you can;  and - importantly - surround yourself with friends who are operating at turquoise altitudes and will (lovingingly but firmly when necessary) call you on your shit.  People at lower altitudes of course may have lots to teach you (particularly with issues you have at those levels) but they won't be able to see any particularly turquoise issues, because it'll be literally “over their heads.”

spiral out,
arthur

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Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

The original post was really interesting. I only skimmed the rest, but what are the shadows of the other stages?

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Alan said: “I propose that Turquoise shadow would be something like having a domineering need to “fix” everyone by pushing them all into 2nd tier.”

Arthur elaborated on this quite well; I'm chiming in because it's a shadow I've just recently begun to integrate. I've heard all kinds of talk about this phenomenon, but I didn't see the ways that it subtly operated in my own psyche until recently. I caught the obvious ways, but that ego is a slippery bastard!

Some history: I just came to AQAL and Integral a little over a year ago; initially, I felt lots of “Yes! Aha!! This is IT!”  in a way that I never had before. And as someone who has suffered the wrath of people armed with blue dogma (I'm queer), it felt SO GOOD to finally feel Right! Ha, ha, you're wrong, I'm right, and now I have PROOF, you miserable little fu*ks!

I've finally made it out of that space (on all but the “worst” of days), and thank God. Yes, it's empowering and intoxicating, but only briefly so, and only (it seems) in an inauthentic way. Whether that, in particular, is a turquoise shadow…probably not. I'm not the best in this game yet, so if anyone feels compelled to take this on, feel free.

Back to the need to “fix” everyone…I just recently (the last month or so) really started to own this and move beyond it. I really felt that, if people could just be educated, they would be better off and we all would be better off. The ego says: No, really, I'm just trying to help! Mmm hmm. I know better now. People are where they are. I may be able to interject some integral thoughts disguised in the clothes of a person's current meme, but I no longer think I know what's better or good for anyone. If I feel an inner tug to make a suggestion or offer an opinion, I will do so, if it seems appropriate, but I no longer impose my thoughts on others (again, on all but the lowest of days). This is HUGE for me. No, really.

And the inner release is oh-so-wonderful. I get to just accept the world as it is, and I am responsible only for myself. That seems like an obvious thing, and it's been an intellectual mantra for awhile; to actually feel it and live it is profound.

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Colin? I wish you could feel the sense of expansive joy this brought to my heart. Thank you.

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Siona: Thank you for sharing that joy. As one who resonates deeply with just about *everything* that you post, I share the appreciation.

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Oh, and not owning greatness? That's a tough one. This is such a strange world. On one level, I experienced being taught that standing up to claim one's talents and strengths is noble, if done without ego. When the rubber hits the road, though, very few people want to hear you claim such strengths. I've seen this in Integral forums as well. Claiming that one is at 2nd tier can bring criticism and suspicion. Can you say Rock and Hard Place?

While I am fully aware of most of my strengths (high IQ, good communicator, can catch 50 pennies rested on my elbow), I sometimes find myself feeling inadequate in all things integral. Tim and others really went deep into this, and I totally related. I also resonated with the truth that the twin of conceit is insecurity. Owning greatness without a trace of conceit or insecurity is a grand challange.

It's such an interesting experience to walk through the integral door. Behind me is a world in which I was intellectually and emotionally advanced compared to most people. In front of me, I see lots of people that seem smarter, healthier, and way more integral savvy than me. I am very wet behind the ears and am still drying off after shedding my 1st tier cocoon. And sometimes it is very lonely, this place. I hear that loneliness here, too. May we all find the communion we need and desire so that we are strengthened on our journeys further up the spiral.

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Alan said: “I propose that Turquoise shadow would be something like having a domineering need to “fix” everyone by pushing them all into 2nd tier.”

This is a really interesting thing to look into; it really makes sense to me. I do know some people, likely Turquoise, who really like trying to fix other people. Part of it may just be the arrogance of understanding something that most people don't understand; knowing that you understand something that's a little esoteric can open the door to a lot of narcisism. I actually see an awful lot of this and have surely been guilty of it myself on occassion.

But it's important that we don't simply drop out after seeing this–we need to differentiate between this negative behaviour, which is no help to anyone, and postive action (or skillful means), and hold on to the postive action, not throw the baby out with the bath water. I think we should all take the Hippocratic Oath for this as well. Samuel Hahnemman, the founder of homeopathy, highlighted one particular aspect of the Hippocratic Oath; he said, “First do no harm.” In other words, if you don't get involved, people very well might do just fine without you. (On the other hand, though, witholding genuine help is a great mistake and, I would say, actually a form of harm.) Another way of looking at it is to never lose sight of the Divinity in others. When people start compulsively trying to fix others (which is one way some people characterize ego, as the compulsive need to fix a problem), I think they've lost sight of the Divinity in others and, in a really narcisistic way, they think–even if they're not really articulating it–that they are God and noone else is.

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

David. I liked your thoughts on this.

I don't personally feel I need to DO anything. I only need to be still, and quiet myself, and to not worry. How to put it? I certainly don't believe I need to use my egoic self to differentiate or decide what is right or wrong; what action is skillful or what is not; whether to offer a hand or allow someone to learn through their own process. Because I've found, personally, when I trust in the deeper process, that I'm not passive, and that I'm moved to do what's necessary. I don't need to worry about whether or not to interfere; there is no interference, there is only acting with, or acting as.

I don't know. It's hard to express. What concerns me, again, is not deciding how to act, but rather, is being still enough to hear that deeper, unequivocal call to act. If I can feel secure that I'm not acting from ego, there's no need for me to fret about whether or how I will act. When I feel in my heart that nothing needs to be fixed, and that the world is perfect, as is, then the movements I make - and they do occur; being is incredibly dynamic! - are only in harmony with that flowing perfection. It's not just not 'me' trying to act in harmony; it's merely life unfolding through.

It's hard to speak or talk about, but perhaps others have felt it too.

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Thank you, Sonia. I  think you're right on: you're speaking of your experience from a nonconceptual point of view or from a place of radical not knowing, but when we talk about that,  it can get pretty tricky and some people can get the wrong idea.  Even in a deeply surrendered or not-knowing position, if the person's heart tells them “I am only responsible for myself,” that is an egocentric heart. If their heart tells them, “I am only responsible for my nation,” that is a nation-centric heart. If their heart tells them, “I am responsible for the world,” that is a worldcentric heart, and if their heart tells them, “I am responsible for the Kosmos,” that is a Kosmocentric heart. And a turqiose heart is in the “I am responsible for the world and Kosmos territory,” though it also includes the other responsibilities. 

 But as you say, it's also really easy to get into compulsive problem fixing rather than seeing the world as perfect and then building on that–what many people miss is the building on part, the evolutionary aspect of it that Ken says comes with turqoise. The world is perfect and yet there is a lot of suffering; the world is perfect and yet it needs to continue to improve, and it can't evolve beyond a certain point without our conscious participation. Roshi Bernie Glassman has said, “The degree of our enlightenment is the degree of passion that we will have for the whole world.”

http://www.wie.org/j19/glassman.asp?page=1

Here's a link to the whole article:

http://www.wie.org/j19/glassman.asp?page=1

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

Here is the whole quote:  

AC: You've been saying, “The right response is going to happen”-and I believe you and I agree with you. But I still want to ask you, in terms of the dharma, what exactly is the relationship between that state of unknowing and the awakening of conscience that transcends ego?

BG: I think they're the same state. But it's not a passive state; it's very active. And that active state is bearing witness. That's, for me, the way to approach it. Instead of waiting for something else to happen, say, “Right now, I, to the best of my ability, will approach this situation from the state of not knowing.” I think that gives you the best shot at doing something. It gives people permission to do something from their state of enlightenment. And it means bear witness to the suffering; don't run away from it. Bearing witness is really important. To bear witness is to sit with it-and by “sitting,” I don't necessarily mean physically sitting-but to sit with it, and try to simultaneously keep coming from that place of not knowing. Stay with it and bear witness to it-then you can do something.

Now, each one of us has got whatever attachments we have, and that's why I say that the degree of our enlightenment is the degree of passion that we will have for the whole world. That passion will arise. Stay with it. Bear witness to what's coming up. Out of that, action has to happen.

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

“Even in a deeply surrendered or not-knowing position, if the person's heart tells them “I am only responsible for myself,” that is an egocentric heart.”

Since I said something about being responsible only for myself just a couple of posts back, it seems relevant to clarify. I think I understand what you're saying; if this comment in your post was in any way in response to my comment (the potential of which exists given the proximity), it seems we're on two different pages of the same book. One is ultimately only responsible for him/herself in that one is only responsible for his/her own actions, not the actions of others. I'm talking in the relative sense, not the absolute sense. Life in a dualistic world. Saying that one feels responsible for anything other than oneself in a dualistic world, from that frame of reference, seems rather narcissistic (God, that word is overused in integral circles). Alas, you must be speaking in non-dual or esoteric terms, though, yes?

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

I didn't really mean to direct that at anyone, though I thought that that might happen. I'm sure I could have phrased it better. My only point was that no matter how deep we go we will all respond in various ways throughout the day. My own egocentric heart takes possession of me momentarily several times a day. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I think actually what these teachers are asking us to do seems rather narcisistic but is really the opposite: to realize their Oneness for the world and then be responsible for that world.

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

David: thanks for clarifying. I figured that's what you meant; I just wanted to get the clarification.

Re: The Turquoise Shadow--do you have it?

David,

I was rereading some of this thread, and it occured to me that we were just using  “responsible” in different ways.

I was using it as response-able. Responsible FOR my own actions.

It seems you were using it in terms of care and concern. Responsibility TO others, if you will.

Does that seem like an appropriate distinction?

So, it's not a distinction between duality and non-duality, as I initially suggested.