The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

For anyone interested, I am opening a second thread related to 'The Song of the Nile' to allow space for us to discuss, integrally analyze, and explore the process we all just entered into in the telling of this mythic tale.  The story may not be “finished” yet, but it seems to me it's neared its end, and that at least some participants are not satisfied with the way it has resolved itself.

A number of things went on 'behind the scenes' – private messages and discussions, meandering but often fruitful Internet searches, infusions of inspiration, moments of elation or frustration as the story took unexpected turns, and so on.  At this point, I do not believe we have realized an alchemical or even a fully “Integral” piece of art, or fully realized the intersubjective promise of such an exercise, but I think the effort was worth it.  A good learning experience.  Others have done “chain stories” before, so this is not a new artform; but I think it's one that has a lot of potential, especially if we enter into it from an Integral perspective.

Here, in this thread, I'm inviting us to move from the dreamlike, largely second-person perspective in which we were just immersed and to take a third-person perspective of what we were doing – while also exploring in first-person what we were up to, and connecting in second-person in ways that were unavailable to us in the “midst” of the drama.

What came up for you in the midst of this process?  What was triggered for you?  What did you hope to achieve?  What elements worked for you, and what did not?  How could this have been done better?  What does this story reveal, if anything, about the shadows of self, and sex, and culture?  We can explore these sorts of questions, and others – whatever we can pull forth from taking an AQAL perspective of the whole exercise.

Best wishes,

Balder

P.S.  If you followed the story without participating, but have observations or criticisms to make about the whole unfolding dreama (dream drama!), your thoughts are welcome here too.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Thanks, Balder, for bringing me back to reality. I was thinking, “What can a Pharaoh do with such a bunch of simpletons? They just don't get it. But who cares? I'll kill them all.”

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Hmmmmm … this is starting off well.  Thanks Balder for having the courage to just jump into this thing.  I like your overall analysis of the “event” if you will.  I will do my best to stay away from reactionary flaming and just “have at it” from my “insides” in an emotionally honest-as-I-can-be response mode.  For my part, months ago, when I came to the I-I pod, the flames of the LoA and the AC fires were just beginning to rage.  I had never before participated in an open forum such as this.  I did a lot of reading after embarrasing myself at first and one of the threads that caught my eye was the Om … thread.  There was something about the Ramsses/Pharaoh character that caught my ear and heart.  I choose not, at this time to go into detail about this, and maybe never will, but from my current perspective, as the writer of Yogi character, I am safe within the Sinai.  Here, I can begin to contemplate the “drama” and my role in it, I can look back to those beginning days when my psyche was first stirred.  A metaphor comes to mind.  It was as if I was attending a bullfight, with the Pharaoh as the bull.  Sometimes he appeared as Ferdinand all attention to peace and flowers.  At other times he appeared enraged, seeking to gore anyone who drew near. 

As I have made ultra clear in some of the Yogi's musings, I am obsessively drawn to the wounded.  What I have not exposed about myself thus far is that I am equally drawn to bullies.  As a skinny, red-haired, and deeply freckled child, I drew bullies like flies.  It was my wounded dignity ,expressed with a look of insolent arrogance that drew them to me.  Truly, I was just terrified at being “beat up” but could not yield the arrogance as it was my only defense against the shame of terror.  I simply could not figure out how to balance the two.  I went into the army, trained hard and discovered that my athleticism and fire within, had turned me into one tough sonofabitch.  Surviving the war and much martial arts training totally reversed my vision of myself as too weak or untrained in my own defense.  I grew secure and could face the physical threat factor with a peaceful heart.  I no longer carried the insolent and arrogant look.  Bullies left me totally alone. 

Yet, having come to see my own country's behavior as profoundly bullyish, and having just spent 4 years of my life being a part of it, I came to realize that confronting the bully was as important to me as tending the wounded.  I fought this fight for 20 years in the fishing business which abounds with bullies.

So, to the metaphor.  Basically, I just jumped into the ring with the bull with no sword for the kill, but a pretty good cape and the skill as well as the determination to use it.  Interestingly, there is no doubt that I have the bully shadow myself.  I was raised in a bedroom with a year-younger brother.  He suffered from my own fearful reactions to the outside world and I have repeatedly apologized to him for that.  I know that I am pushy and confrontational.  Some can choose to see that as bullying.  My intentions, however, are not to insult or hurt another, they are the result of this deep fire within me to “get the fucking party started - come on people, lets stop dinking around and make something out of our lives!!”  I apologize with all my heart to everyone who has been stung emotionally by my relentless behavior for the consequences of me being me in your lives.

Namaste,
Michael

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

All of you had better stay in the Sinai. And don't expect the Red Sea to part for you. It won't. If any one you ever dares to set foot again in Egypt you will spend the rest of your life hauling pyramid stones.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

That might be all right.  I love stones and have built gardens honoring them.  Really, I have moved some big ones and am fascinated by great stonework.  What say we start another story where some simpleton foreign mason drifts into Egypt with an idea for a complete change in the way Pyramids and Temples might be better constructed?

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For better or worse, Pharaonic Egypt is history.

But “denial” is still apparently a river there!  ;-)


Seriously, when I first encouraged Ramsses to continue with his Egyptian vignettes, I did so simply as an appreciative spectator.  I know very little about that culture or its myths, but Ramsses did a great job (for me) of evoking a lush, mysterious place of beauty and intrigue.  I was content to sit on the sidelines and appreciate whatever “snapshots” he offered to the forum.

When Michael started contributing to the story, however, something shifted significantly for me.  I felt we'd moved into a new medium … the fleeting images that had been playing on the screen seemed to coalesce around a heightened sense of dramatic tension, and I felt I was entering more deeply into a real, peopled world – with all the danger and potential that entails.

I have a passing familiarity with drama – having written and performed in a handful of plays – but I am certainly no expert.  But just from my limited perspective, I feel that in a good drama, while depth of character is essential, the character must be made also to serve something larger … to serve the story.  A story with flat characters is unsatisfying and shallow; a story with rich characters can sometimes carry the day, even when the story is flat; but when the characters actually undermine the story, the drama falters and the energy that is bound up in the character-story / self-world dynamic cannot reach its potential.  In a sense, I felt that happening here. 

We all came at this with different expectations, but the Pharaoh seemed especially resistant to the emerging story, and often dismissed large sections of it as delusional fantasy, ignoring events as if they hadn't happened or else were not really significant aspects of the overall drama.  I believe this is one factor that undercut what was struggling to be born here, and which possibly led to the conflict at the end. 

Of course, even the conflict and dissolution, the retreats and the rages, the reflections and deflections, were all part of a story … just not the story I think several of the players were hoping to see born.

On my side, in the character of Melchizzedek, I felt sometimes like a third-dimensional device rather than a second-person character.  This was helpful and instructive for me … especially as a 9 on the Enneagram, with a tendency to identify with everyone and an unflagging urge to step into conflicts as a mediator or “facilitator” of some sort.  I sensed a conflict brewing between the Yogi and the Pharaoh, and that is why I summoned this character into the story.  Melchizzedek is not only a Christ-figure (Paul calls Christ a High Priest in the Order of Melchizzedek), in gnostic literature, he is a semi-divine being who collects purified motes of light and who serves as a “pattern of consummation” and a symbol of the Future Ideal Human.  I hoped, in a vague way, to help initiate a “pattern of consummation” between the Pharaoh and the Yogi.  But I found that this placed me at what seemed to me to be an “inhuman” remove from the emerging human drama.  My “appearance” and “action” in the play was often in non-human forms and third-person events … mythic animals (the gazelle, the Gengen Wer) and elemental events.

In the last scene I contributed, what I hoped to convey was the incompleteness and limitation of this perspective – of this masculine, purely transcendental role in the world (focused on third-person “engineering” of human relationship, goal-oriented “mining” for light motes, and a future-centered effort to build a “kingdom come.”)  Melchizzedek had to realize that his mythical, 2-D character was going to have to enter into the world in a new way, to be thoroughly stained by it, suffering at its center instead of “tweaking” it from its edges. 

I do not believe I actually strive to “manipulate” events in my life the way Melchizzedek did, but I resonated with him for another reason:  in any group, I almost always feel I am on the edge of it.  For a number of reasons (not all of which are clear to me), I never feel I belong in or that I am welcome in the center, and I believe this thought-pattern is in some ways self-fulfilling.  This story was one way for me to explore this dynamic.  Though not to challenge it to the depth that I had hoped.

Best wishes,

Balder

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I'm actually unaware that I was resistant to the emerging story or that I dismissed large sections of it as delusional fantasy. My understanding of the Pharaoh is that he consciously represents the innate divine consciousness that resides in all and tries to engage that in others. Perhaps I dismissed what I thought was not relevant to that intention. I did not wish to misrepresent myself as a perfect being, but I did feel that it was vitally important that what the Pharaoh represented be respected. It was not. The whole point of the story was lost.

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That's a helpful observation for me, Ramsses.  I can see how the Pharaoh's dismissal of the idea of a need for a “contest” to determine anything makes sense, coming from the perspective of the Absolute Ground or Presence.  But what kept erupting into the story, for me, was a sort of polar and very human-seeming tension between the King and the Yogi, which did seem to demand a relative resolution.

It's interesting what tension emerges when a human being, acting in history, stands also for the Absolute…

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As I see it, the tension between the Yogi and the Pharaoh was rivalry and jealousy on the part of the Yogi.

Your remarks about your own character are very interesting in light of my having effectively twice dismembered you. In shamanism, dismemberment is essential to initiation. I find myself constantly trying to break down some barrier in you.

Maybe we do need to do another story.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Maybe we're just getting warmed up.  I think there is great beauty and power we are touching here, if we keep daring to dive in.

In my last scene, in identifying with Christ on the stake, howling with and for the world – this time intentionally – I was trying to “own” my previous dismemberments at your hands.  In my first version of that scene, I mentioned images of lions among those of Golgotha, to make the connection to You and our story more apparent, but then left them out (hoping readers would make the leap without having to be told.) 

If the story had gone another way, I might have stepped into a willing sacrificial role right in the middle of it.  (I told several people this was my intention, if it “fit” the story.  Instead, that initiatory death appeared in another temporal frame…a promise, not a realization.)

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Maybe we should give it another go. Or just continue it.

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I am open to this.  How do you see us coming to a consensus Intention for basic “story” line?

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Oh my God!  Get thee behind me insistent flames!  Can you possibly be serious about

“I'm actually unaware that I was resistant to the emerging story or that I dismissed large sections of it as delusional fantasy.” ?

I simply refuse to have to go back to the Song thread and point out the half dozen times you did exactly that by trashing offerings left and right.  You are absolutely right that this was a story about you as in “around you.”  It just was not yours to dictate.

“My understanding of the Pharaoh is that he consciously represents the innate divine consciousness that resides in all and tries to engage that in others.”

Why then did you choose to represent this Phahaonic wil through behavior that was routinely imperative, dismissive, and decadent?

“Perhaps I dismissed what I thought was not relevant to that intention. I did not wish to misrepresent myself as a perfect being, but I did feel that it was vitally important that what the Pharaoh represented be respected. It was not. The whole point of the story was lost.”

Who appointed you to dismiss this and that offered into the ''we” space of the unfolding drama?  The dismisser was really you, the guy writing the Pharaoh's character, not the Pharaoh himself.  Imagine yourself on the other side of this, as a human being acting out of your own story and trying to deal with the actual behavior exhibited by the King.  How would you respond to this if you were the Yogi or Rani or ZM for instance?  Would you just bow down to this mad King and surrender your precious autonymy to him in a faithless charade?   Somehow my friend, I think not.

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Sorry, Michael, I think you're the one who is delusional.

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That , you have made abundantly apparent without offering a shred of explanation or evidence.  You will have to step it up another notch if you want to further insult me.  The “delusional” bit has worn itself out.

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Well said Balder, well said.  I liked how you broke down the image of the ZM character as a catalyzing force in Story unfoldment and then took it to “self” examination with: 

“in any group, I almost always feel I am on the edge of it.  For a number of reasons (not all of which are clear to me), I never feel I belong in or that I am welcome in the center, and I believe this thought-pattern is in some ways self-fulfilling.  This story was one way for me to explore this dynamic.  Though not to challenge it to the depth that I had hoped”

There, I think, lies the gold of this entreprise, this examination of the Song, and our purposes to it.

“Of course, even the conflict and dissolution, the retreats and the rages, the reflections and deflections, were all part of a story … just not the story I think several of the players were hoping to see born.”

This may seem hyperbolic and categorical, but I am serious when I say that, for me, story is everything.  I believe we are all actors all the time.  That we relate to the world through the drivers of our personal stories.  We are all somewhere on an apparently hierarchical continuum between being totally vexed, humiliated, and victimized by our stories, and true freedom from them, after accepting total responsibility as the diligent truthful librarians of them.  We are not stuck in this hierarchy and most of us feel the imperative to “ascend.”  Such ascension, I contend, must be served by both accepting disciplined rationality AND the responsibility  to search out and expose the truth about ourselves vis our stories.  Story/shadow work will authenticate us emotionally.  So authenticated, we are free to see life as play.  Life at play is who we really are. We “act out “into the illusion of hard reality, straight from our stories however more or less mangled they might be.  Prior to the work, our stories are burdened with liability, while after the work they become our greatest asset.

Improv is about exploring this frontier in the “we” space, live, alive, and capable of behaving courageously, because you cleaned out your own closets leaving you with nothing to hide.

My own closets still have a lot of junk.  I'm workin' on it.  Just one more little heads up:  as you probably are aware, I am prone to share what I come up with.  It feels healthy for me to discuss these things in this “we” space of ours.  Disclosure tries the self which humbles before such rendering.  I think.

Something tells me that this thread is going to be a trip in itself.

Namaste,
Michael

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Well, you are brilliant Balder….you simply started a thread about a thread to burn off the loose energy, while, I skiied up Sunday Hill three times, spent time with the RiverSong Ladies in retreat, and went to a movie primiere, Being Innu—-about the situation in my beloved dilapidated community, the alcoholic adults, the devasting lives of the children, the relentless suicides. On my last ski up Sunday Hill, I stood at the top, mountains and lakes surrounding me. I watched the sun set in the west and the full moon rise in the east, and I held my hands out on either side, so that I held them both at the same time in my palms, Palm Sunday……..it was silly sort of, but it reminded me how I am at the very center of my life……the wind was biting, and the vastness of this earth stretched into my amazed soul… Even Rosie, my Samoyed dog, a spruce bow stuck in her tail, was playing the mythic part along with me.

I loved your character, Melchizzidek, and I appreciated your last scene. You did exactly as you intended, your character opened room for something more, another dimension. You honoured the Feminine….and you recognized the violent polarity with which you may have been participating in through history. This life is not about some transcendent, bodiless, spiritual awakening, but about the embodiment of this spirit in THIS messy body, truly being present……… I say, “Put the motes back in the bodies”….that is why they are there in the first place!

Ramsses, I have already told you off….you can say what you like that ‘those voices mean nothing’, but that you heard them, that in itself, means that you are called to listen. I believe, anything short of listening is the “myth of the given” And de Nile is more than a river in Africa, absolutely…you have been called, not by some badly behaved monster father, but by the sweetest Rani, your hearts most precious desire. You better shape up, ‘cuz she needs a man, and her heart is set on you-oo–oo. Now, I recognize that you have a sweet and lovely heart, and talents beyond your station, but you are becoming an Othello protecting your wound as you do…..you might consider facing this, or you will lose what you love most.

And Michael, every woman on this thread has noticed you, and probably fallen in love with you. You are beautiful, even your wounds are spectacular, the mangled foot, the ratty hair, you’re strong, you take charge, you dance, you suffer stoically, you have a sweet heart, you claim to want to get the party started, you know tantric phrases(who knows, we hope even more!). All of us are hoping you will ask us to dance..and instead!– you repeat the father son theme……and then before redemption is possible, and even if you are right, that redemption with the pharaoh is not possible at this time…. you are out in the friggin’ desert whistling dixie!!…..That is a real piss off! You have left a courtyard of breathless women, Shaktis-in-waiting and then in a blink of a scene, we are all wallflowers and then housekeepers yet again……Why the hell did you take off into the desert? I am pretty sure that the only true and lasting freedom you will ever find is in the deepest depths of the eyes of your Beloved…..Perhaps you might consider getting back on your high horse and riding back into town. I don’t think silly men(yes, that is you Ramsses) learn what loving the Beloved is, without some man, somewhere, actually showing them what that looks like……So do it for the community! And if that fails, and it likely will, do for yourself! There are only one million women or more from which to choose…and my bet is almost all of us know what I am talking about…..
love Ja-ne

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Yes, shit fuck piss, I will do anything that you say/show.  It is time for women to really lead again.  Its just that we men must be “shown” what to do as we are all sick to death of being “told” how to act by the women in our lives.  It sucks in a way that I suspect women just do not understand.  It reduces to mommy shaking her finger at us, while telling us, underneath the particular issue of the day, that we are not OK as we are at that our sense of belonging in our relationship with mommy or any other woman for that matter is entirely dependent upon doing what we are told.  Putting the “belonging” issue on the line is one of the deepest threats a man can endure.

Affection rules.  By focusing on what we like about another, we soon discover that there are things about the other that make us feel good about ourselves.  Recognizing this, we feel fond of the other.  Sharing this fondness with the other is affection.  Displays of affection warm the heart of the other, and gives them the security that belonging is not theatened.  More it no longer becomes an issue and the fear component associated with challenged belonging evaporates - one less pain in the ass.

I do have the run-away-from-it shadow big time.  Many times, when progress or breakthrough seems not just out of reach, but so far over the hill that I seem not to have the strength to continue, I just bolt and God knows I feel guilty about it as well as not a little ashamed for violating my own standards of personal decency.  Only by admitting such may I begin to gain some authority over it.

Namaste
Michael

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

You are telling me! Shit, fuck, piss! I suspect most men don’t know what it is like to sit outside that fucking cave, biding time, carefully saying nothing, not wanting to accidently “TELL anybody(certainly not the beloved male) what to do.”

It is amazing what has been tolerated…..how many women are starving to be danced, and loved to the end of the earth through all of time…..and I don’t mean the fatal attractions, the bossy shrews, or pathetic victims, or the seductive anima shadows. I do mean full bodied, voluptuous, present, beautiful, brilliant women. We are starving…….and we sit and wait, we learn to wait without waiting….and finally, no Shiva in sight, we either wither and die, or take solo to the dance floor…..But I want to make this clear…Though Dancing solo is okay and it is the best that many of us can do, it is not what we want, and it is not the divine order of things either. We want you! Instead, we witness the behaviour, screaming into the inner sanctum of the temple!, or sailing off into the blue! and trundling alone through the desert! hanging around in some celestial intellectual library!… and all the while, through all the shinanigans, we tap our feet on the edge of the cosmic dance floor. You are loved….and we are yearning and burning, we are on fire……We want you to dance with us…..

oh, brother, where art thou? Where is this party….I just wanna dance….

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Oh God how I want that too Jane! 

I offer this not as an excuse, but a functional truth about myself:  one of my biggest shadows is “Mr. don't trust women”  Yet I adore them and consider that men are here to serve them not the other way around.  I KNOW that God designed it this way, that catalytic energy from the male daemon, like sperm, serves to initiate the miracle of life's gestation in the female.  What else can a responsible man do but serve this very core of process that allows souls to incarnate in this spectacular university on earth?  Its just that that shaking finger broke the spell for me time and time again.  I trust that by taking responsibility for all my reactions to this, I will slowly, become free of this shadow becoming more and more open to finding a place to take part in it.

I don't mean to say that a woman's only vital role is to have babies and show men how to co-nurture them, far from it.  Yet, underlying the profound rights of personal choice is the reproductive meme.  I believe we are here to provide as much “entrance” to the university as possible especially in such times as this, when the opportunity for soul growth in the trial by fire cauldron, has never been higher in the 4 billion + year history of this planet.

Souls are waiting in line out there to get on the planet for this ride through this spectacular crux of evolution.  We either concede to this or we don't.  I concede and I know that you do to.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

So Michael, it is like this…
You don’t have to trust women. You just have to trust yourself….breathe in, breathe out, stay present, move, add music…and…..you are dancing…..then then breathe in and out, and find the one you fancy, offer your hand, see if she says yes!….wash, rinse and repeat….
Don’t forget to breathe….

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I know about the immediacy of self-trust, I just have this shadow legacy which happens to be working itself out right now.  Please bear with me.  It won't last for long in this cauldron.

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Jane,

Thank Shioban for her poem. Tell her that you both need to attend the Pharaoh's finishing school for ladies of the court.

You must think of me as God. Remember that. Then all will become clear.

Ramsses

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I'm not returning to Egypt for any more of this shit, I can promise you that.

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Good riddance.

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Oh brother, this is getting totally pathetic…..I think I am going to have a lovely glass of wine while commisserating with my sisters, and go to bed early with a hot water bottle….

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Hey you may be able to shake me from Egypt my friend but I'll bet you don't forget the Yogi or the feelings he raised in you for a long, long time.  Lets forget this crap brother and get on with it.  You want to party or not?

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Michael, you are such a jerk. You stay in the Sinai. I'll stay in Egypt. Keep in touch.

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And a chorus of Supremes and DreamGirls sing du-whop in the background
“you wanna party or not?
you wanna party or not?”

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Very funny. Go to bed.

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That is a pathetic answer!

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Really? Sorry about that.

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Oh this is an amazing thread in itself….

All of you, Michael, Ramsses, Jane and Balder.

Jane, I am so moved by your call on behalf of women. Your strength is so inspiring, full, attractive.

I have my own share of shadow and ego in this thread, my own hidden agendas. I am inspired by the sharing from you Balder which is so honest- I see the diamond approach at work!

You know its funny Balder, you are so aware of your own dilemma and fixation, that you bring a vague feeling in me to the fore. I find your writing deep and beautiful and soaked with Being but yes I yearn to feel the vivid raw flesh of you in your characters, the man that stands unapologetically in the CENTRE of the circle and says: “I am”.

Yes, this will be a challenge for a 9.

I'm a 4. Now there's another pickle of fish. There is a tendency to want to be special, to gravitate to powerful figures, a deep craving for beauty, eros, sensuality and sexual play. And much much more that needs exploring and healing.

Gitanjali

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Thank you, Gita.  I am feeling moved by this thread as well.  And you are right about the Diamond Approach in this – I have been wrestling with the “shadows” of my 9-ness and working to learn to stand more fully and unapologetically in my raw human presence, vulnerability, and power.  As a man – not a golden boy, not a pleaser, not (just) a self-effacing “facilitator,” not (just) a margin-dwelling “writer” and observer, not (just) a cybernetic persona (e.g., Balder), but simply Bruce … balls and all.  (It's funny that Ramsses and Ken Wilber have both recently referred to me as “Ballsy”!!) 

I know I could learn from you and the embodied power and sensuality that is yours, as a 4.  As all of us men here could stand to learn, in our own ways, from the Feminine strength and ways of being that are so clearly present in and all around this tale.

Warm wishes,

Bruce

P.S.  Have you noticed that my way of being “in” the group is here, again, by setting a space for others to be?

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Ballsy,

I find your honesty a prfound gateway for all of us. Its honesty about your power and your vulnerability both together, two sides of the same coin. I relate to you putting the golden boy on that list. I was once seeking to be the golden girl and it was a puff pastry.

Embodied feeling and sensuality is perhaps the 4's gift when integrated. I know certainly it draws me. But Bruce, its not an easy evolution in a world as ours. So much informs against it. My inner conflicts, like knives clashing. Lets see how that evolves. I know that men in this world are hungry for it even as they fear it- the masculine part of me is!

Gitanjali

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I didnt see your PS.

YEs!!! there you go again smartypants mr 9….

The space youve created is loving, warm and cosy….very 9.


Shit!!!!!!


I'm serious Bruce….stop it.

XG

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Now I get it. Darshan with Ammachi and the quite different high state of consciousness 
induced through pre- and post-surgical medicinal use of marijuana, gave me such a sense of having been elevated to a godlike state and transported into a different dimension that I took it for granted others would understand my metaphor of the Pharaoh. I am not claiming to be in a godlike state. The whole point is that a schmuck like me could feel that way at all.

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Hey Rambutan, its good to hear you on this thread…
I have to ask: where were you coming from in doing the sex object thing? Was it the sex object thing?

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Gitanjali, I saw the scene ending with the hordes advancing on the Pharaoh in the Osirion as both a challenge and an invitation to portray myself in the most flattering light. I chose to ridicule that expectation and also to playfully explore the apparent oppositions of divine consciousness and sexuality that may or may not be dissolute.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

“I saw the scene ending with the hordes advancing on the Pharaoh in the Osirion as both a challenge and an invitation to portray myself in the most flattering light.”

Excuse me, but what “hordes” are you referring to?  I wont make judgments of opinion for anybody but myself here, but the “horde” was mostly me.  I had had enough of not just your shitting in the “we” space, but the obvious expectation on your part that I at least I was going to have to put up with it whether I wanted to or not.  Allow me to inform you clearly:  I for one, and I know that I am not alone here, refuse to let you get away with either the shitting or the expectation that I will not get in your face every single time about it.  For this exact reason, I am here on the earth.  This is the Archangel Michael talkin to ya dude.  I flat out guarantee you that you have finally met someone in your life who is more certain about such things than you seem to be.

Namaste
Michael

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Oh, fuck yourself, you dick brain.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Hence my sense of deep fellowship with you.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

“Hence my sense of deep fellowship with you.”

Michael, I am reasonably sure this is in response to my remark about Ammachi. I can't get the threaded function to work.

That's very nice of you.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

It definetly was.  No matter what happens, you need to know that I have grown immensely by seeing myself in the mirror that you have been holding to me.  No other single encounter in the constant months that I have been in the I-I has done more for me to help me uncover my own shadows and sense of message.  Nothing even close.  I thank you for that.

Namaste,

Michael

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Hey Ballsy,  I notice how as the 9 you are called to set up space.  I think it might be the lower expression of 9 that “assigns” you the wall.  The higher expression is to dance with the rest of us without self-concern for location and if the “we” “calls its need” for you to be more central it should be rather obvious as you seem most sensitive to this.  A trait that I admire in you and makes me feel good about myself as I aspire to that exact same ideal.

Affectionately,
Michael

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Hmmm, this was not the direction I had in mind for this thread!

But it is the “fight” that was waiting in the wings of the story … the rumbling in the court that stopped ol' Mel in his tracks … and the conflict I was hoping could be carried through to resolution and increased depth of understanding through the vehicle of the drama.

At this point, I admit to being rather baffled by the tension between these two very clearly beautiful and powerful souls.

I still think that Story is a place where this can be worked out – the shining moments that flashed from the face of the Nile give me this hope – but it can also be worked out here.  One of my hopes for this thread was that we could make clear what was going on behind the scenes, and maybe better understand the genesis of the various movements and tensions in the story, and also what appeared to cause its derailing … or at least its “lower octave” finish.

Best wishes,

Balder

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Balder,

“One of my hopes for this thread was that we could make clear what was going on behind the scenes, and maybe better understand the genesis of the various movements and tensions in the story, and also what appeared to cause its derailing … or at least its “lower octave” finish.”

In other ways than as quoted above, this thread may seem to have veered, but as to your quoted “hope,” well, we are deep into the value of it.  Jane has already nailed the shadowed gender issues without shrinking an inch.  Further, she has opened us to her most secret of gardens as to her personal feelings about it.  This “behavior” represents to me a soul irrespective of gender -  the purest expression of humanity that may be claimed by anyone and I utterly love her for it.  Love emerges when a sense of occasional affection for the other reaches a certain transcendence to a steady state.

I love you Jane and I know that you will love me til the end of our lives and beyond. 

Certainly,
Michael

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

And so sweet Michael, we are dancing.
Jane

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Is it really a “lower octave” finish Balder? Or is it a beginning to something higher?

Looking into my mirrors (Michael & Jane) I witnessed the whole of me….  I have certainly 'run away from home' (the male aspect of me) & felt abandoned by the lack of serious spiritual men, & i certainly long (the female part of me) for the companionship of a wisdom male in my life.

So you both have spoken to my heart!

And yet these past two decades of chosen celibacy  have been the profoundest spiritual upliftment - centering - creativity - serious spiritual training I have known. Would I have known that evelation had i been in an intimate relationship????  I guess I'll never know now:):)!  But this much seems certain, I am more at peace with me & my relationship with the Mystery than ever before…. And that seems to be the most important thing in my growth as it removes foolish longings, longings for that which often creates distraction from the journey.

I don't think I ran away from life to the Beloved….  I experience a wholeness in spite of being alone.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

I know, Peggy.  Maybe it wasn't 'lower octave' after all … or maybe the energies that were swirling in the story, having trouble birthing themselves fully because of whatever constraints, are now rising again in new freedom.

I find that I am excited and move to tears by this thread, in all honesty.

For that, I am thankful to all of you.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Dear Ones,

Man, this is really invigorating.  I keep going back to theatre/story telling as a metaphor for life in the “we” space.

As I see it, whoever has the floor and the “talking stick” must consider the following:

1)  What is it that they have to say?
2)  Why are they motivated to say it?  (Including all motivations and pertinent perspectives)
3)  How are they going to say it? 
4)  Is the method of communicating consistent with intention and motivation?
5)  How entertainingly can you present it?
6)  How do you make it entertaining without hammin' it up and disrespecting your message?

With the “floor” I contend that there is an obligation to make your “material” entertaining as that serves to engage your audience's best attention which will translate into affection from them in the form of such concentrated and fond attention.  This expression of love will inspire the speaker to dig as deep as they can into their story for the truth about themselves and return the audience's confident love for them with the love of truth about their story.  It absolutely does not matter if this is a “cool” truth or a funky truth - the audience sees it all as the same.  Its truth in any form that entertains us.

Take the single performer in the wings and about to go in front of an audience that is all bundled up in the miser's playhouse.  The worst possible conditions to perform in.

The veteran or precocious performer will take a few minutes at least before their entrance cue and settle mind to heart knowing that they got their lines down cold (if they have them) as well as everything pertinent about the audience and the stage itself.  They know how to move and signal with body language, tone of voice, pace of delivery etc. so as to amplify or entertainingly frame the message.  Once so settled, the performer, can take the stage on cue in a pure charismatic state where their level of self-acceptance and self-trust is so high that the parallel “virtue” of heart-centered faith can cause the performer to produce more light than they are absorbing.  Hence the “star” on stage.  This state is fabulously delightful to experience and demands expression because the gratitude level is so high that the performer is bound to share it.  Boy, does the audience ever love that!   And they let the performer know about it instantly.  Thus performer is reinforced for their own self trust and the message is born into the ''we” space with maximum auspicion - giving it the best chance to be considered selflessly as the audience has now warmed up a bit and are taking off there hats and sweaters and are not just hugging themselves to stay warm but eachother by putting their arms on the backs of their neighbors seats and generally feeling pretty good about themselves.  This further warms them and this energy is passed on to the performer who amplifys it again and then everybody just gets up and starts dancing in their seats.  This the methodology behind “gettin' the party started.”  I think.  Charisma is a gifted state which totally thrives on being shared.  I think.

Namaste,
Michael

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Hi Ramsses, cant I stop calling you that now? Let me guess your name is…Robert or something :)

You say:

Gitanjali, I saw the scene ending with the hordes advancing on the Pharaoh in the Osirion as both a challenge and an invitation to portray myself in the most flattering light.

That's interesting. I saw it more as a challenge to you. you…your character that is :) was like the Fisher King, wounded in the groin, and in need of healing. Yep, that's how it played out for me…go figure…

“I chose to ridicule that expectation and also to playfully explore the apparent oppositions of divine consciousness and sexuality that may or may not be dissolute. ”

Oh God! talk about the way to get people going! Yes, that schism between the two drives me so profoundly nuts that I go to brazil. Its a big place for ME to heal in myself.

And its why  the fisher king was wounded in the groin

I know its only one view but its the kind of issue that I am really focused on….so that's what I am offering…

Gitanjali

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

There are some heated exchanges in this thread, which is fine. I love the authenticity and deep exploring that's going on. Let's just stay away from the “dickbrain” insults, etc… OK?

lovingly,

Pelle (mod)

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

This is a really interesting experiment. I've been following it from afar and have often been amazed at the quality of the posts, some pretty inspired stuff. I haven't been inspired myself to join in even though I have an interest in this sort of thing; maybe in another story line. At any rate, I think it's really cool. Among other things, it's a sort of experiment in communion but in a way you don't see so often, on a creative level.

(PS. Please listen to your friendly moderator: be nice! People can be very sensitive about their creative output. I think the sort of disparaging personal remarks that we've seen in this thread should not be tolerated on this pod.) 

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Just in case I don't have time to read this whole thread:  HOLY CRAP–I guess I missed alot yesterday!!!
Hoping all is somewhat well in this relative realm.  Will be back with my two cents.
Chris

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

I hope we can explore the story, and process the dramatic tensions in and behind it, in a fruitful way here.  One reason I started this thread is because I see a lot of potential for this, and it is starting already.  I think we've uncovered several alternate perspectives of who “we” were to each other, and what we were doing, how our actions were received, etc.  This is really very valuable, and is just the sort of “gold” one might seek out in a group therapy session – unearthing the veins of (often incommensurate) meaning that drive our relationships and guide our actions.  I hope we can make the most of this, without harming or insulting each other.

On another note, I received a suggestion from Pelle that I've been considering.  Speaking in his moderator role, he told me that our “group story” and our “debriefing thread” are welcome to continue on II-Zaadz, but he suggested that it might also be a good idea to consider creating a new pod for this kind of “work.”  He said there were several reasons he was giving this suggestion:  While the “collective story” itself seems to be a powerful way to create a visceral and moving we-space, on a number of levels, the processing of the story can also be a vulnerable exercise, and a pod that is less “out in the open” (or at least expressly dedicated to this) might be a safer place to do that.  He also said that he'd been following the story from the beginning, but didn't join because of potential conflicts with his role as moderator.  In another pod, he would feel free to participate.

I don't want to break up the party just as it's starting – and moving a party from one house to another definitely can shift the energy in significant ways, if it doesn't scatter it altogether – but I think this is an idea worth considering.  I am attached to the exercise taking place on II-Zaadz simply because I'm attached to the people here, and the “Integral” sensibility that is always going to be at the back of what we are doing.  But if all of the participants here joined the other pod, then there wouldn't be anything lost…

Zaadz doesn't let its members start more than three pods, and I am already at my limit, so I can't actually sprout the new place – if people are even interested in the idea.  I have started sprouting it mentally, though, and this is what I was thinking….

Several names came to mind, but one that stood out for me was Dreamaturgy (or Integral Dreamaturgy, Sacred Dreamaturgy).  I am making the play on dramaturgy, wedding it to 'dream,' because “The Song of the Nile” seemed like a collective dream to me for several reasons.  First, it started with a few random ideas and images, as dreams often do – some idea or impression arises, and suddenly it unfolds into a full-on story, a whole world teeming with people and primordial energies.  Second, because it was being woven by several people perhaps, it took bizarre leaps in time and sequence, in action and event – it moved in a slightly discontinuous fashion, as dreams often do.  Third, the characters sometimes got mixed up, becoming each other – there was a dream-like fluidity to identity.  Fourth, the emerging Story was sort of an alchemical cauldron for processing archetypal energies, working out conflicts, and allowing for transformations, as dreaming itself often is.

There are plenty of other names possible, and I've got several ideas, but that's my plug for using a play on “dream.”

The pod itself could have several rooms:  One for the collective stories we tell together (like 'The Song of the Nile'); one for the kind of processing we're doing now; one for (Integral?) criticism of the art that emerges; one for just hanging out and brainstorming and riffing off each other; and one possibly for more theoretical discussions about dramaturgy, integral or visionary art, etc.

I'm happy to keep going here on II-Zaadz, as long as we do not annoy our moderators, but if anyone is interested in creating a new pod, then I've shared Mr. Smartypants Spacemaker Nine's two cents' worth on what could be done…

Best wishes,

Balder

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Balder:
On another note, I received a suggestion from Pelle that I've been considering.  Speaking in his moderator role, he told me that our “group story” and our “debriefing thread” are welcome to continue on II-Zaadz, but he suggested that it might also be a good idea to consider creating a new pod for this kind of “work.”  He said there were several reasons he was giving this suggestion:  While the “collective story” itself seems to be a powerful way to create a visceral and moving we-space, on a number of levels, the processing of the story can also be a vulnerable exercise, and a pod that is less “out in the open” (or at least expressly dedicated to this) might be a safer place to do that.  He also said that he'd been following the story from the beginning, but didn't join because of potential conflicts with his role as moderator.  In another pod, he would feel free to participate.


Ok, I'm gonna have to clarify a few things here.

I wasn't writing to you as a moderator Balder, if I do that I always sign it with “Pelle (mod)” at the end.

The reason I suggested starting a new pod is, as you say, that a protected non-public pod might be better if people want to do really deep shadow work in the form of a collective drama (or simply engaging at a deep level even if it doesn't contain shadow work). I would love to participate in that kind of exercice but I would want the protection that a private pod offers. Zaadz is a very very public place and I think people sometimes forget that since the sense of communion is often strong within this pod.
And yes, being a mod is also a factor for me not wanting to participate in the kind of deep work that a joint story/drama of this kind is. The playing field should be level, there cannot be even a suspicion that it is not.


As you can imagine, I am the last person to want to detract energy from this pod. If a new pod is started it should be small, with something like 5-8 members, and dedicated only to writing the kind of thread that you guys just did. In such a pod there would sometimes be an active thread and sometimes not. In other words it would not be a replacement in any way to our integral discussions here, it would simply be a complement that some of us enjoy.


Pelle

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

That makes sense, Pelle, and thank you for clarifying that.

Best wishes,

B.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Pelle,

good point about the shadow work component.  That might tip the balance towards a new pod.

best,
M

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Balder,

Just some opening thoughts:  I would rather see us stay in the I-I though I will concede that a certain amount of debriefing may include deeply personal exchanges which might be best kept confidential within the circle of players.  If we stayed in I-I we could handle it all in a new board - the confidences could be handled in group pm's if nec.

You know that I am a great supporter of you and your ideas, but I am really wary of “Dreaming” Theatre.  Very few successful plays have ever  been centered on dream themes.  Poetry avoids dream images.  People do write about them of course, but the New Yorker, I'll bet, has never published a dream-oriented poem.  Audiences are wary because, once its clear that its a dream theme piece, they grow uncertain as they know that all rules are off, and that they (the audience) will have to set aside all of their story-processing skills and just go along.  Most audiences do not just want to go along.  It is hard to participate in another's dream.  Players, writing their characters in a dream theme drama are prone to yanking the action off to some fabulous (for them) new horizon when, to their fellow players, it appears cock-eyed.

Normal story telling is hard enough - look at all the prepping we had to do to catch up with Ramsses Egypt metaphor.  I am open to anything and really want to just be a part of, but as you can probably tell by now, I'm a nut about the entertainment part, a real audience advocate.  After all, if it doesn't work for them, you'll never get out of Peoria.

best,
Michael

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

You have more experience than I do with this subject, Michael, and I will bow to your wisdom in this area.  My thought with the “dream” emphasis was not to suggest that we make dreaming a topic of the stories or play, but just to highlight the dream-like processes that seemed to be at work in what we were already doing together.  Not to intentionally make things chaotic or irrational or discontinuous, but to acknowledge that there is something inherently a little chaotic and unbounded in the process we're engaging in – which is not scripted beforehand, but which unfolds as dreams often do, through leaps of intuition and insight as disparate pieces are gathered up and shaped into new meaning.

But anyway, as I said, the “dreamaturgy” was just a suggestion and there are plenty of other ways to describe what we've been up to and what we'd like to achieve.

One member here has informed me that she has an extra “pod” free that could be used, and I will be responding to her soon.  But I wanted to see what the consensus here is first – or see if someone else just took the initiative and started a pod on their own.

Best wishes,

Balder

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Balder,

Pelle's insight about the shadow component has left me feeling that, as story and shadow are so deeply interwoven, and, that since integration is what we are about, that a move to an invite only pod might be the right thing to do.

As to the “dream” issue:  it might be that we are just in a little semantic corner.  I can handle “dreaming” as a waking state process of “imagining” that would include the “dreamers” personal “inside” story, their outside story perspectives, considerations of other “posters” issues, the overall story line, and their personal shadow issues, those shadow issues they want to reveal through their character, other's similar shadow issues and the overall shadow of the storyline - a lot to consider. 

I think that it might be helpful to consider that the best (imo) play/drama stories keep everything really tight.  The effect can be quite florid like a raucous symphony, but, looking into the structure of the music, one sees a very simple thematic “set”.  Separate movements can be wild and/or melancholic, but within themselves a relevance to the base set is always evident.  Collectively, the audience is brilliant and expects the storyteller to honor their brilliance by presenting drama/story in this orchestral/symphonic way.

IMO, the formation of intention, that is “what story will we tell” is critical.  To get to the Intention launch, guidelines, rules and other protocol must be established and agreed to by all posters.  No one should get special privileges or allowed to break the rules.  Guidelines and protocol are more flexible, but the rules should be inviolable when the story is unfolding. 

Another question to consider:  since this last exercise was totally open to whoever wandered by, it was “live” theatre - pretty dicey.  Would this continuation we are discussing want to take a such a “live” approach?  Would we want to work it out in “rehearsel” mode til we got a publishable show, and then post it on the I-I?

Live improv is THE toughest form of theatre - especially if any real shadow is going to be exposed.  The stakes for the players are excruciatingly high and, though we are willing to play, no one wants their character's shadows ridiculed or dismissed peremptorily.

My thinking here is to get the players together in a prep thread on the new pod and really roll out these issues seeking a consensus on base guidelines, protocols and rules.  I strongly suspect that, after a while of this, that the group will start nodding in unison, and then we can begin to discuss story/drama themes while aiming towards a group intention.

Finally, you must know by now that this very process we are discussing is as close to the root of life for me as I ever hope to get.

best,

Michael

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

I've been mute because my heart is too full. I love you all, love FIREWORKS, grand spectacle, including drama & the requisite dickheadedness… not to mention the subtleties. Ah, the subtleties of soul-movements…. Having said that, I also feel deeply conflicted about my part in this experiment. As the story of De Nile progressed, a form of group therapy was tried on an unwilling  subject and - of all places - on a forum on the internet.  So I understand the rationale for wanting to move the discussion to a more private venue. But there's my growing resistance to being jerked around by all this agentic maleness in action, like a puppet or a pawn in your great show - Michael!  So I'm not for moving this discussion anywhere else. Oh dammit, my feelings are way too ambiguous right now, and I'm expecting not to be heard, let alone understood... Well, what else is new. Isn't that one big fat thread in the story of my life?

Peeling onions, sick and tearing up and giggling and then some,

M

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Namaste, Princess Rani -

I hear what you are saying.  I have conflicted feelings about this process too.  It's clear that the major conflict between the Pharaoh and the Yogi – or really, between Ramsses and Michael – was not resolved through this Story, and maybe it can't be through this vehicle.  Though some of us, rightly or wrongly, had hoped for something cathartic and healing to happen between them. 

My feeling is that both characters had such a different sense of where the story was going, and what each character represented, that it was maybe “doomed” from the start.  Not that it was a waste of time – I don't feel that way – but I agree that it grew dicey when it moved in the direction of enforced “group intervention,” trying to get the human Pharaoh to do something, when that is not what the Pharaoh-as-God wanted at all. 

I tried to play out some of the “guilt” with my character, Melchizzedek – having him feel remorse about manipulating characters to extract “light” from them, having him decide to leave the light where it was.  But from what I'm hearing from everyone, I may also have been too clumsily male and agentic in the end as well.  (I wrote to Mary about my final scene a few days ago and haven't heard back, so I assume I have contributed to the violent, ham-handed agency in this exercise.)

I still have hopes that this sort of creative dance can be fruitful for us – it certainly was fun for awhile – but it obviously has its risks, and we must consider them carefully.

Best wishes,

Balder

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Mascha wrote: I've been mute because my heart is too full. I love you all, love FIREWORKS, grand spectacle, including drama & the requisite dickheadedness… not to mention the subtleties. Ah, the subtleties of soul-movements…. Having said that, I also feel deeply conflicted about my part in this experiment. As the story of De Nile progressed, a form of group therapy was tried on an unwilling  subject and - of all places - on a forum on the internet.  So I understand the rationale for wanting to move the discussion to a more private venue. But there's my growing resistance to being jerked around by all this agentic maleness in action, like a puppet or a pawn in your great show - Michael! 

Mascha, I hear you. I'm pretty sure I would be feeling the same way if I were in your shoes.

Reading this story (and the 2 Nile threads) has been a bit of a rollercoaster ride for me. Its beginnings were so full of shimmering images and lyricism, but I felt discouraged and increasingly resistant as I saw how difficulties and challenging moments would repeatedly get “resolved” through violence, intoxication, or sex. Ah, but what else is new? This is the world we live in, isn't it? Then I would feel elated and hopeful again when feminine voices re-emerged, offering toughness, deep nurturing, healing poetry – which would then (with some notable exceptions) be dismissed or ignored …

And I would have really wanted to bow out after it turned into group therapy. This is only my personal (non-mod) opinion, but I don't think cyberrealms are the best place for true group therapy or for serious shadow work. Of course, a kind of “therapy” ends up happening here anyway, just through our continuing conversations in these threads. But without actual physical presence – and the kind of communication and emotional nuance afforded by gestures, facial expression, vocal intonation, and body language – there's so much more room for misinterpretion and unintentional wounding. I worry about the tender places in our souls that may get stomped on, with no one noticing or acknowledging … I think therapy is best done face-to-face, with willing participants – whether it's between two people, or among a group.

On another note: I have to admit to being jealous of y'all's creative output in this story. As I was reading it I was thinking, shit, if I could get this much written each day, my book would have been long done being finished! What amount of caffeine were you folks on, to get that amount of richness out there in such a short space of time? Seems like it required great amounts of energy. (On the other hand, I also found myself thinking: phew, this would need a lot of editing … hehe). But there really was some incredible mythical wordsmithing in there – lots of gold in this mine.

My thoughts at the moment,

Mary

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Thank you, Mary. I'm in tears about this right now. And it's not just personal pain.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

I keep writing posts about this Mascha, and then editing them, and then looking at them thinking I am blathering….here is one of them:
I have been writing to you about this too Mascha, feeling some self-chagrin, and even a disloyalty, mixed with a deep desire ‘to speak my part of the truth’…. I felt the same discouragement about the violence and drugs and sex….and the repeated resistance to look closer. At the same time, I also was thinking about what “it” is that is both protected and possibly destroyed with this ongoing on-slaught of behaviour. I remember reading Stephine Levine once saying something like, “even when you are right, you are wrong.” which basically a recognition that there has been sacrifice of communion. And yet, sometimes, this agency is critical….to protect communion…..

I am feeling a twinge of self-chagrin when thinking about ‘group therapy on an unwilling subject’….I posted a story about my son’s windsurfing learning about that same thing…..There are times and places for an autonomy of a soul that are ‘no go zones’, until suddenly, and for what ever reason these zones open up and become available….. I have a old friend who says, “we all have a right to suffer, and if we haven’t suffered enough, it is our God given right to suffer some more.” There is also a natural period of gestation in soul birthing that is idiosyncratic, and ‘what’ is being incubated and ‘what’ is being born is also idiosyncratic. sometimes it is something amazing and sometimes it is a pile of crap…..that later becomes something amazing…or Not.

More than “doing group therapy on an unwilling subject”, in the Song, I also recognize and respect,Ramsses, that you have taken upon yourself a sacred duty. You are protecting something very precious. It would also seem apparent that you have suffered a great wound in the service of this ‘protection’ duty…and moreover, you also have accepted alienation on this thread rather than give this duty up.
I am very curious about what you are protecting. I am suddenly thinking about Neitsche…the Will to Power, about his refusal to allow his soul murder…. I am also thinking about what I would risk alienation, and even die, to protect. My sister’s poem is about looking at the subtle nuaunces of this. I am thinking about my own boys, the glazed over look, the dissociation. I am remembering my own adolescent glaze, I am remembering what I was protecting.

On the other hand, the unfolding of this story was caught in this protection/wound/duty situation. There is a fine line to know where to get involved and where to back off. The fine line is more complicated the more any of us are involved, and the more any of us love the creation, and the more any of us recognize that the Commons are in peril of destruction…..

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

See, it is so telling that the men are all GONE from this thread ever since I spoke up.

Ball-crushing, finger-wagging, weak-sounding, guilt-tripping mommy voice? I'm sure it was heard, but only women responded so far.

I'd write more but don't have the concentration right now…

Edit: Ok, so Balder and I crossposted our last two offerings. Thanks for acknowledging that guilt again, B.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Mascha

I'm with you on not wanting to be jerked around by heartless agentic maleness…

I am also conflicted about my part in the Song…

But it was good in bringing up the shadow…

XX Gitanjali

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Mascha,


“See, it is so telling that the men are all GONE from this thread ever since I spoke up.”

When I read this line, my heart sank in sadness and guilt.  I really had to stop myself from just piping up in reaction.  As I think about it now I feel a certain sadness in myself that you would conclude that the “lack” of male response to you was an indication that men could care less, or didn't have the courage to respond to your issues.  I for one was following the conversation between you, Jane, and Mary.  As well, I was busy communicating with Pelle on the closed pod issues as well as substantially posting there to help get that ball rolling.  Frankly, I am just exhausted AND I know that this debriefing process is both precious and necessary.  More, I realize that my “behavior” is significantly responsible for the need to do it at all - thus my guilt.  Pleas, accept my apologies for this, and please resist if you will, the urge to jump to concusions about what I or any other man might be thinking.

namaste,
Michael

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

No conclusions jumped to, Michael. Just pouring some of my guts out - emotionally charged, obviously. Your apologies are openly received and will be grokked more fully as the day goes on, I promise you that. Still, I will be so bold as to say that while I totally accept that  you have been busy with other things today, the underlying issue of becoming a prop/pawn in another play directed by you (especially for women who might get involved in a future project), remains a bit of a stumbling stone for me.

with love and admiration, you know where I'm coming from, I hope…

M

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

I am not sure they are gone….I don’t think they are….

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Balder wrote: (I wrote to Mary about my final scene a few days ago and haven't heard back, so I assume I have contributed to the violent, ham-handed agency in this exercise.)

Bruce – I received your last message just yesterday (when I was a little hung over from a Seder ritual the night before – lots of wine during that meal!) and have been intending to respond to it – just have a lot going on at the moment … It takes time for me to mull things over.

And actually I saw Melchizzedek as a … how do I put it – a more “balanced” masculine and femine voice –more fluid, able to change form, ready to exert force or, ultimately, to be sacrificed … And I was moved by his “jump” with Rani. Truly. Melchizzedek seems to embrace both agency and communion.

More later, y'all – I'm still behind with my editing –

Mary

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

ITs amazing what i am learning from this.

Thank you Mascha for bringing up agentic maleness…


Bruce, Michael

Please, I sense….I ask you not to paint your selves into a corner on this one,

Its what has happened in our society at this time,

And its a polarisation….a falsity

Words can be such landmines.

Gitanjali

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Hi Gita, you said:
 
“I'm with you on not wanting to be jerked around by heartless agentic maleness…”

Just flipping between my work pages and the forum here, I'd like to say yes, sure. But heartless agentic maleness is easy to put into perspective. It's when there is great heart and soul and brilliance evident, that the most damage is done. And the voice of the maiden-mother-crone is silenced. Ever wondered why Ammachi, Ramsses' guru, is mostly just hugging people and transmitting energy? I believe I've got a pretty good idea why she's not “lecturing”. Granted, this may not apply to Ammachi's particular case - I don't know her. But throughout the ages there must have been just as many women Masters as men. What are their names? Where are their scriptures? You get my drift.


Love,

M

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Mascha, sweet one,

I remember seeing a video of ammachi and it made me cry.

On the other hand mascha now youve brought up for me one of my pains…


Ammachi is a madonna a mother,

She is not Sophia - who integrates the madonna and the whore….into a beautiful whole…

I'm tired of this madonna whore split….it gives me the shits, and I am a perpetrator too make no mistake!

Aaaaaarghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Sophia would speak, sing, dance and slap as required….no?

Mascha, often the medium of women has not been the written word…

although many times they do want to write and speak and are not heard.
I grew up with it…I have a memory of men speaking women as audience…I dont think some men notice that at all. I'm working with it at work too. 

but in this world there has been such a hegemony of the Word, Logos….at the expense of other forms of communication. So tthat hegemony can also reflect the silencing of he feminine

Love

Gitanjali

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

here’s a line that Ramsses PM’d to me the other day…..
“Surely conquest is an inevitable part of the evolution of consciousness. If the Eternal Feminine were any more in the hearts of women than in men, women simply wouldn’t put up with all this crap.” I really appreciated him saying this to me.
It is an interesting challenge….how to stop being bullied, to stop being cowed…..to accept the responsibility for my voice even if it means that I will be rejected or scorned or abandoned, tortured, burnt at the stake. To writing myself back in, even if I have been written out, or written off……Nothing will happened that has not happened before. and indeed, ‘we are powerful beyond our wildest imaginations’…..”Show up, pay attention, speak truth and let go of the outcome.” I think this has got to become a kind of a practice for the whole world.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

I haven't responded since I wasn't really on the inside of this and probably wasn't expected to respond. Also, I'm not completely sure of all that's gone on; a lot of it seems to have happened through PM. But I'd like to comment on the agentic-male jerking around stuff, if I've gathered what happened well enough. It seems to me that the story ventured into wish fulfillment at some point, an attempt not so much at story telling or shadow work but an attempt to satisfy deep, dark, forbidden desires that couldn't be satisfied in “real life.” Wish fulfillment rather than shadowwork or story telling. A lot of storytelling does venture into wish fullfillment, which I guess is innocuous enough if it happens in a novel and someone else wants to read it and make an attempt at wish fullfillment through reading it, but this is a different medium. The characters, in addition to being creations of the writer in each person, may also have been extensions of the person's character and actually connected in some way to their emotional bodies, and so when another character tries to use it for wish fulfillment the person actually feels used. Am I in the right ballpark?

Some people (on another forum I've been on) have talked about how ridiculous it is to feel emotionally affected in any way by internet forums and how they can't understand how people would get angry or get a crush on someone or get hurt–I don't know if it's just bravado or if for some reason their personality type doesn't get connected in that way, but it hasn't been my experience with it at all. I think it's pretty easy to be hurt by it, maybe even easier because your defenses are down and you really let things in. Does this make any sense? At any rate, I hope everyone wants to continue with it … without, of course, using it for any kind of  wish fullfillment that could be hurtful, if that's been the issue, or any of the other things you see on forums, bullying, venting, scapegoating, etc. I wouldn't think anyone here would really do that consciously, but each person would have to be vigilant to see that it wouldn't happen.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

David

What you say makes sense to me…

and I wish for real-life relationships to have even deeper vulnerability….


Jane

You make a good point. I was reflecting on my own complicity in the baser vibes…

I felt it was one of the great insights for me in the play….

The penny dropped fully when Mascha spoke up….


Gitanjali

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

This is in response to David talking about wish fulfillment through others posting on the internet. Yes. Definitely. One major desire that can be fulfilled here is to get PUBLISHED if you're a writer when no major publishing house will accept your crap - or gems, whatever the case may be.

Here, anyone with a bit of writing skill can be a  Poet-Writer-Director-Actor-Therapist-Guru wannabe and get a live audience to go berserk or whatever. In my experience, very few people have 'been there & done that' enough already to bring a truly miraculous transformational energy. I grieve for not hearing any more from a guy called “transient /parsimone” for example. I've sent him a PM, but he appeared like a messenger from above, spoke briefly to Julian, and then he was gone.

So, yes, I think we all use each other to fulfill certain desires. Nothing wrong with that - until someone gets hurt.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Oh boy  girl, I may get in trouble for being an overly agentic female here and posting this without Lauren's expressed approval - she's off to work, and I can't wait for hours or days until I receive another PM from her. You all just have to hear this, in my totally unhumble opinion.

So this is Lauren speaking : (the bolding is mine)

“mascha,

……. i hear you and suspect that maybe the majority, at least many, of the participants here feel the difficulty of trying to nurture many-dimensional relationships and the deepest of communion through the only forum available to us, lacking the (quoting Mary here)
“actual physical presence – and the kind of communication and emotional nuance afforded by gestures, facial expression, vocal intonation, and body language – there's so much more room for misinterpretion and unintentional wounding. I worry about the tender places in our souls that may get stomped on, with no one noticing or acknowledging …” as mary said so beautifully. i so appreciate those of you who do so much with such grace., even if it feels like not enough to you.

and i did not say it, but emotionally, yes, that is one of the main ways i can't keep it [posting on this forum] going. having this correspondance with you today, and reading the unbelievably moving exchanges on the “making of the song of…” thread,i am realizing that the combination of longing for real communion with genuine peers, with the pain of having it only be virtual, and with the particular shadows that endure… it is emotionally difficult for me. it would not be an exaggeration i think to say heartbreaking. mainly, i find myself frustrated by a persistent, stubborn, willful(?) blindness on the part of all but a few of the men, a blindness to their blindness to the true value of the Feminine… or a cognitive awareness and appreciation of the Feminine, but in action a type of indifference, failure to engage, or active disdain, that… oh, i don't know, i find it so painful to encounter that here, painful enough in fact that i'm not sure i'm not just projecting a wound and inventing a pattern where in fact there may just be occasional, not fundamental, misogyny. and does blindness, lack of awareness, amount to misogyny? i don't know.

why is it that the integral community on the whole has a much more virulent reaction to green and magenta (and blue?) values than they do to orange and red, which they can criticize as well but never with the same charge of scorn and dismissiveness that seems to be aroused by unhealthy (or, heck, HEALTHY) green… this to me reflects a deep blind spot… i wish i could understand it and articulate it. not really sure how blue fits in… but it does seem to me that green and magenta represent more feminine modes of expression whereas red and orange express in a masculine mode. anyway………

i am so grateful for what you shared on the “making of” thread today, moved and quickened.
thank you!!”

~***~

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

As I said to Mascha earlier: Dueling Swordsmen and a Divine Dance, all rolled up into one pulsating thread. Until now, I've been content to stay a wallflower. But then Mascha speaks…

Oh, Mascha, I hear your open wound, and sadness and compassion envelop me.

I have at least three internal voices right now.
(I was going to use random words to avoid ranking these voices and labels that don't mean anything, but I've just spent more than a minute on that pursuit and its fruitless. Please keep in mind that these voices are a bit off the cuff; I shudder at the thought of self-editing and losing the authenticity, so I am not doing that now.)

1: It opens my heart wide and slices it at the same time when I see the communion that is struggling to coalesce here. A clearly palpable yearning to connect and touch others' hearts and souls and be touched in return runs through this whole thread, and elsewhere in this sacred and profane pod. And it can be a beautiful, shaky, fabulous, scary thing.

2: Big fucking deal. Watch it ALL, hear it ALL, open to it ALL, let it move through you and then let it ALL pass away. Back here, now, (as Jane would say) with the in-breath and, now…the out-breath (this is not a directive, it's a voice)

3: You can bet that just about any time any of the precious, strong, fragile jewels passing this way experience intense reactions to anything that anyone says, we're deep into Shadow land. Projections abound. Look, listen and learn.

I love you all for showing up in whatever way you have needed to show up.

Deeply,
Colin

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Beautiful Colin, beautiful!

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Echoing Gitanjali here…

Colin, that sounds like you're a man who can actually hear - not just listen superficially in order to get back to what's really important, i.e. your own allmighty, preconceived agenda. It is invigorating and heartbreaking to have to struggle so much just to be allowed to be more than an admiring audience member or a live stage prop. I believe you know this from the inside. Which means you've suffered the indignities… and the fear of banishment to the margins…

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Mascha said: Which means you've suffered the indignities… and the fear of banishment to the margins…

Yes, I have felt the sting and the indignities of being banished to the margins, time and time again. And I now believe that those experiences were tremendous gifts because I am able to relate to others that have had similar experiences. And, because I have been on both sides of this seeming chasm, I can feel and relate to both “sides”. I feel the pain of both sides: the anger and disappointment of not feeling heard AND the frustration of trying to “get it” and not knowing how to do anything other than trying to fix it using rational thought. Feminine and masculine drives all wrapped up into one sexy package (sorry, throwing in some irrelevant self-flattery there for attempted humor!)

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Dear Ones,

Dear Mascha,

“But throughout the ages there must have been just as many women Masters as men. What are their names? Where are their scriptures?”

In the past, women “master's” tended to get burned at the stake or edited into whoredom by the androcentric paradigm.  Much (but surely not all) of this has changed profoundly in the last 100 years.  As to the last 50 or so, I offer the following evidence of emergence of the divine and, dare I say, agenic feminine.

Simone de Beauvoir, with the Second Sex  and Woman:  Myth and Reality
Betty Friedan, The Feminine Mystique
Gloria Steinem in numerous essays in Ms.
Kate Millet, Sexual Politics
Shulamith Firestone, The Duality of Sex
Germaine Greer, The Female Eunuch
Susan Brownmiller, Against Our Will
Susan Griffin, Pornography and Silence
Jill Johnson, Lesbian Nation and the Feminist Solution
As well as Rita Mae Brown, Toni Morrison and many other feminist authors of “fiction.”

More recently, Feminist authors such as Riane Eisler, The Chalice and the Blade and others have contributed seminal work to the recounting of Old Europe history from the perspective of the Goddess cult which thrived there for 4000 years.  Notable archeological evidence from city states in this era suggest that the communities were largely undefended.  There were no armories to speak of and not much evidence of any weaponry as in shields, battle axes, and swords.  Big story here, but it shows me that my instincts were right about the way that energy best flows between men and women.

My readings of the above literature are not academically extensive, but I have been reading it since the middle sixties.  I get the feminist priority.  I accept the basic lessons that “it” has to offer.  The bulk of this work is revolutionary in scope and represents women's drive to discard the bonds of role and to require men to accomodate this conclusion.  I believe that to a significant extent, men have done this.  Evidence in politics at least shows the fruits of this “acceptance” however grudging it might have been.

I don't think that the male energies expressed in this Song were alone in their gender agenics.  My sentiments and commitments are clear.  I considered this from the beginning and assigned key symbolic roles to feminine energy.  The Raven, the Yogi's guiding totem was feminine.  The Yogi recognized Ja-ne's wisdom, honoring and appealing to it several times.  Her last counsel in the Osirion provided me the courage to drown in fear.  The Yogi supported Rani's storyline carried from India to the mysteries of Thebes, and chose to honor the autonomy of Nefertitti despite his mixed motivations.  For me, truly conflicted with mixed emotions, and to continue to honor the feminine, my only choice was to display what I consider to be the best that a man might do under the circumstances, mixed motivations and all.  By admitting this, I am free to act that way without fear that my shadowed predator will feel neglected - kind of a “fake-it-til-you- make-it” concession.  As I have grown by both instruction from the feminine and the loving touch of it, more and more, my emotions are telling me that I'm not having to fake it quite as much.  Its workin'.  I think we can both practice this doing-the-best-that-can routine.  It will create a meeting ground where we can both drop the agenics to their proper supportive role, and begin to creatively play (act) from our humanness.  This is the guts-of-what-we-do-with-our-time-attention-money-zone, irrespective of gender.  I say that this is where most of us lead our lives most of the time, in this fundamentally emotional state, deeply connected to our story.  When this near-constant reverie is “interrupted” by interaction with another, the body and most of the mind will turn to the encounter and make all the appropriate gestures that signal our willingness to turn from reverie and into the moment.  There are varying degrees of expertise at this.  When the encounter is over, we process a bit and then return to story, to the voice of knowledge chattering away in our heads. How we respond to interaction is an expression of the actor's total priority set operating at that time.  Thus, every nuanced gesture during the interaction, is an attempt to portray or project our willingness to be present in the moment and still attendant to our story.  I think the reason we can't just drop story, and be totally present (though we do seem to be progressing this way) is that we are so story-oriented to begin with.  It's like we can't drop it, yet.  Progress not perfection.

“…but it does seem to me that green and magenta represent more feminine modes of expression whereas red and orange express in a masculine mode. anyway………”

I don't like the sound of this, but I have to agree.  Men have a ways to go generally speaking, but of the four men who posted routinely on this pod, three of them at least routinely honored the feminine and supported the feminine agenic.  I think.  I ask, what is the real issue here, shadowed misogyny?  Lauren's highlighted speculations and feelings were compelling.  I can only can say that some of us are starting to get it.  As we get it, it will be our job to carry this message to other men.  You girls will soon free to examine why it is that you are so fond of telling us what to do all the time. (heh heh heh)  We'll get back together soon, I know, drop the agenics and show each other what we have learned.

yer pal,

Michael

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Spoken very, very softly:  Michael, you didn't hear me at all. I don't know about the other women here but my guess is they would concur. You just keep on rolling like a tank, and hey, great, all the more power to you. But the nameless wildflower on the road is crushed this way, you see? No… I'm beginning to think you are blind to your blindness  as Lauren said - just like Ramsses is blind, God help him.

And God help all of us, because we do need big brassy ballsy guys like you, Lord knows, to get humungous amounts of shit moving and out of the way! BUT. Semi-blind and semi-deaf still means half dead in the subtle realms where most of the healing must occur … or for you and me to even have a dialogue where a voice like mine can feel truly and completely heard instead of blasted down into submission. If you're not interested in that dialogue, fine. Just don't act as if you're really Mr. Sensitive, Dr.Nurturance, and Guru AnanadaMichaelji all rolled into one and ready to listen.

Btw. of all those female writers you've listed, none were spiritual Masters in the sense of being recognized as Authorities for transmitting the ultimate truth, nor were they lineage holders. I don't know what these authors or women's lib have to do with the deeper issues that Lauren, Jane, Gitanjali and I have brought up.

Best,

M

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Dear Mascha,

“Spoken very, very softly:  Michael, you didn't hear me at all. I don't know about the other women here but my guess is they would concur. You just keep on rolling like a tank, and hey, great, all the more power to you. But the nameless wildflower on the road is crushed this way, you see? No… I'm beginning to think you are blind to your blindness  as Lauren said - just like Ramsses is blind, God help him.”
 
No matter how softly this is spoken, it packs a whallop, I guarantee you that.  It flat out hurts that you see me like a tank smashing wildflowers along my way, that you see me as blind to my blindness - just like Ramsses.  When I consider that you think that about me, I feel pain and fear of rejection.

“… or for you and me to even have a dialogue where a voice like mine can feel truly and completely heard instead of blasted down into submission. If you're not interested in that dialogue, fine. Just don't act as if you're really Mr. Sensitive, Dr.Nurturance, and Guru AnanadaMichaelji all rolled into one and ready to listen”

Blasted down into submission?  Just don't act like … . (shit!  you're flat rippin' me here girl.)

Wow!  I'm really feeling your heat here Mascha - more than I personally deserve it seems to me.  I have apologized for my trespasses already and will reiterate them here again.  I ask you to not hold me responsible for your feelings at large about this as I personally have only participated with you for the briefest of “whiles.”  I do not speak for all men, nor do I want to defend their agenics re women.  I am going to ask you to just let me be for a while.  I promise to consider what I might have missed about what you had to say, but, to tell you the truth, I am not sure just what it is that I have missed.  I'll grant you that it must be clear to you, so perhaps you could softly tell me exactly what that is without the above rhetorical heat. 

yer pal,
Michael

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

For me, spacemaker, peacekeeper, assume-the-guilt-to-calm-the-waves 9, I feel a sense of panic arising.  It's flat-out egocentric, too:  I encouraged Ramsses to follow the Nile story and cast an Egyptian spell over all of us; I opened this “Making of…” thread, hoping to process things in a safe, abstract, creative but not too challenging or threating way.  And here are my beloved friends, in the story I helped to encourage, in the thread I set up, fighting!

Seeing myself as responsible for what's happening here, though, robs all you of you…at least in your interaction with me while I'm in that frame of mind.  Of course, I know that I am not responsible for all of the feelings and wounds here, the shadows and frustrations, the fears and the projections.  But there's a part of me that just wants to react in panic, to reach out and do something so that all of you nice, precious characters in “my” world don't get out of control and make this comfortable little oasis explode…into the chaos and grief, the dangerous rage that I used to fear erupting in my home when I was a youth.

Even this post can be seen as such an effort – to draw attention to me, away from the issues that are immediately sparking flame between Michael and Mascha, or Michael and Ramsses.  Like Melchizzedek: realizing he had a part to play in the conflict that erupted, and then drawing it all into himself in the ultimate compassionate/narcissistic gesture.

I say compassionate/narcissistic because I think there is something beautiful and valid in the 9's altruistic impulses … something that is not shadow speaking.  I really would be happy to take in your pain, and breathe it through for you, if that could give you ease.  But shadow can, and does, cloud this essential desire.  It gets all tangled up in narcissistic cravings for security and control, in a perspective which renders 2nd persons into 3rd persons, in activity which tries to quickly squeeze out drops of light in the hopes of avoiding, or at least rushing past, the pain that lies in the way.

I say all this in order to acknowledge what seems rawest and most tender for me right now, not to ask all of you not to fight or dig into these issues.  Oh, I want to demand that you all behave and be nice right now!  But I want something more too … something much deeper than that, something truer and more precious, and I – this habitual me – can only stand aside and let it emerge if it will.  The one who wants to diffuse and protect doesn't know how to get there, not in groups like this.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Hey mr. Nye-an,

“Seeing myself as responsible for what's happening here, though, robs all you of you…at least in your interaction with me while I'm in that frame of mind.  Of course, I know that I am not responsible for all of the feelings and wounds here, the shadows and frustrations, the fears and the projections.”

Boy do I hear this.  I cannot think of a way that anyone can be held responsible for another's feelings.  How is that possible?  What's the connection between our behaviors and other's emotions?  If our intentions are percieved as malicious or disrespectful, that would provide the other with an excuse to hold us responsible.  Why focus on the behavior and not your own experience/response/reaction to it?  I think, that when I do it, I am trying to avoid a good look at myself ie. why am I so offended, and what is really offended.  Usually its my ego that gets “offended” and, if I dwell on that without going in to the emotion, I will surely respond through reaction now matter how politely guised.

“But there's a part of me that just wants to react in panic, to reach out and do something so that all of you nice, precious characters in “my” world don't get out of control and make this comfortable little oasis explode…into the chaos and grief, the dangerous rage that I used to fear erupting in my home when I was a youth.”

Thank you for this Balder.  This partial paragraph contains the current dysfunction and the archival emotional stakes of story.  Stylistically, to me it represents by the “saying” of it, that it is its own solution.  Present again.

best,
Michael

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Bruce, I just re-read what you said and it does help. None of us know how to do this, we're being lived through, it seems to me, and I thank Michael from the bottom of my heart for continuing to spark these strange, unruly ways of showing up in our little oh-so abstract and polite oasis. Fireworks! Hell, brimstone! Frogs, love & disgust etc. etc. Soap opera? Or opera realistica ?

Okay now, that's my new avatar.

M

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Michael: “I cannot think of a way that anyone can be held responsible for another's feelings.  How is that possible?  What's the connection between our behaviors and other's emotions?”

It's true that little things can trigger the release in pent up or repressed emotions in people, and they can feel things that the person who triggered it can't really be held responsible for, but of course we can be held responsible for another's feelings–in a million ways. It reminds me of something Charles Manson once said–Ken has said this–“If we're all one, then nothing I do is wrong, right?” You're not saying this, are you? Think of all the millions of ways you could hurt someone–of course you can be held responsible for how others feel.

It's one of those nights.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

David,

I am definitely not saying that one person cannot hurt another.  Not to mention one of my beleagured mother's favorite tactics, I have been slapped twice in the face HARD by lovers and once thew a vhs tape at one.  But I have never hit, slapped, pushed or physically restrained a woman in my life, except perhaps playfully.  I know that I can hit hard and cause great pain.  However, the emotional pain the other experiences afterward is entirely their own responsibility.  I will agree that my behavior can catalyze an emotional experience in the other, but the other is responding/reacting out of their own story.  If my behavior triggers this experience, I can be held responsible for the behavior only - the emotions are almost all from the story.  We all inadvertenly trigger each other.  An otherwise ordinary comment, may at the wrong time or context, be a powerful trigger - up come all the emotions in the psyche so connected.  Its simply not fair for me to target the other with responsibility for all of the emotion I might be feeling.  Indeed, I could choose to thank them for facilitating the view.

“… Charles Manson once said-Ken has said this-“If we're all one, then nothing I do is wrong, right?”   I've seen this before and it evokes now the same response from me as it did 30 years ago.  Is Ken agreeing with Manson?  That would alarm me about Ken as I think that this comment of Manson's is evidence of sociopathology.  Its one of those facile little witticisms masking as some Zen truth, as if the spiritual truth of our oneness would allow Manson, or anyone, to prey upon others for any purpose whatsoever.  It was just that kind of wry, stupid, and ultimately lethal crack that drew people to him - “fuck personal responsibility - lets go out there and do some helter-skelterin'”

No, I'm not saying that.  Quite the opposite I maintain.

best,

Michael

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

I am very moved Bruce.  I stand with you in this.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Balder. Oh, the energy just rushed up my spine and I got a flash of tears when I read this:
But there's a part of me that just wants to react in panic, to reach out and do something so that all of you nice, precious characters in “my” world don't get out of control and make this comfortable little oasis explode…into the chaos and grief, the dangerous rage that I used to fear erupting in my home when I was a youth.

Oh, how I can relate to that. The small, wounded one cringes and then the Rescuer comes crashing through the door wearing a White hat.

This tendency is what I side-stepped in my previous post. Thanks for all you said for so many of us.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Michael, I'm letting you be exactly as you are. I have given voice to some of what comes up for me in reaction to a certain aspect of you and now I regret it, because your pain makes none of this worthwhile. And I assure you, I'll feel the reverberations of this energy for quite a while, so you're not hurting alone.  I should have just kept quiet and waited till I'm evolved enough to speak up without doing harm. You are not rejected, quite the contrary. I'm extending myself to include all of what comes across these pages from your heart and mind and guts into my own being.

If this isn't truth, I don't know what is, and someone must show me.

With as much openness as possible for me, I stay connected to you.

M

P.S. Once again, Bruce and I posted at almost the same time. So I hadn't read what he said when speaking to Michael. Jeezo Christo, this is great. Not fun. But great.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Dear Mascha,

“Jeezo Christo, this is great. Not fun. But great.”  Were sittin' on the same fainting couch her Mascha.

I want you to know that whatever pain I might be feeling, or threat of losing my sense of belonging, is totally my stuff.  If it is still shadowed to the point that it can emerge from my story with strong emotion when er, stimulated, then I have work to do there and not in the face of the person who showed it to me.  God works in mysterious ways.

This is a great hard lesson for me as much of my look good persona is so tied up with being Mr. Right.  Threatened for any reason, I go to my tank mode, and carefully as possible, I go around trying not to hurt or bump into anyone.  It is hard manuevering in a tank which is why I prefer this other, more rational and dispassionate way towards dispute resolution.  Truth is, my tendencies to flame in the past, have exposed me to phenomenal amounts of adrenaline/cortisol and a weakened stress response has resulted.  I simply cannot handle to much emotionally laden criticism anymore.  PTSD ya see.  I raise it not as an excuse, but gratefully for the having of it has led me within and resulted in a new abiltiy to not flame so friggin' much - great stress reduction technique learned by faking it til I made it.

Anyway, I'm ready to kiss and make up and I see that you are too.  Much so much to contemplate.

love,
Michael

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Ok, Michael, while we're letting each other be juuust the way we are, I want you to know that you deserve a whole page on the Most Prolific Posters thread by now. How's this for a very rough draft?

Michael is Indiana Jones   .  Here shown after a little too much “group therapy.” He has presently vacated his    and contemplates entering a nunnery.

……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………


Forgive me, for I have sinned & will do it again,

M

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Michael

What a rollercoaster day it has been hasn't it?

You and Mascha…

Bruce….and everyone J (oh that 9!)

I'm having my own turmoil….

I confess that I have been upset at the thought of letting you down and you closing to me. You, a new and lovely friend for me whose heartfelt emails I have enjoyed so much. But now I realise that, in part this was just an internal movement, a closing to you based on an old fear of the “insensitivity of men”. I remember you once said you feared women and I was struck at the time. And now my own fear of men has come up. Yet again, we are mirrors for each other. I realise that I don't need to be closed to you.

I also feel a fear that you will withdraw your agentic expression. I understand better after listening to you how painful this is for you but withdrawal is not the response I wanted. I feel sure this is not the response other women want, though I haven't asked them. (Did you have a moment of: “you cant have it both ways sister!”). And I fear that Bruce will withdraw his “thrusting out” of the 9 tendency - the timing of this is uncanny.

I wanted to reach out and feel a connection with you today, Michael.

Also, what Mascha said about women as audience, object and not equal with me resonates with me at some deep level. It has already helped me today at work to express my subtle feelings on issues.

Its funny, as many men feel the struggle of feeling the subtle and sensitive energies in themselves and others, many women feel the struggle of expressing their agentic selves.

Healing to all of us…

And love

Gitanjali

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Dear Gitanjali,

Well a big hay ho! on the roller coaster ride.

“I realise that I don't need to be closed to you. “  I feel joy when I hear you say that, emphasizing the you.  I know that I can be annoying in ways that people are inclined to shut down to, but that is just my best behavior of the moment, and not who I really am.  I love that you choose to step around this “whatever it might be” and continue to relate to the “you” of me.

As to my agentic (what the hell is it, agenic or agentic?) well don't worry that that might be shut down any time soon.  My agenda is simple:  I have a lot of work to do on myself and I will be sharing my progress as I go along.  One thing I have learned is part of the reason I am here.  Basically I'm a cop from another star system sent here to enforce the very few rules of the “we” space.  I am here to help defend anyone, male or female, adult or child who is threatened by bullying behavior in the “we” space.  I am also here to tend to the physical and psychic wounds of myself and others - pretty much the same job description of the cop but in a more personal frame. 

“Also, what Mascha said about women as audience, object and not equal with me resonates with me at some deep level. It has already helped me today at work to express my subtle feelings on issues.”

This is becoming ultra-clear to me as the result of this somewhat smoky exchange.  I get this, I am thinking hard about where to go in myself for a clue as to how to deal with it.  This is the area where I think that women can show men what to do by discussing it with themselves in such a way that men can observe the discussion and draw their own conclusions without having to be “told” by women.  Men can do this too - that is discuss their own shadows with the female agentic urgency in such a way that women can observe how they do that.  We don't have to get into any cross debriefing on this, just contemplate what we are seeing, learn, change and play together with this new “knowledge” as if both agendas are mostly sacred to the gender and of no personal emotional concern to the opposite sex.

Gitanjali, you must know by now how fond I am of you.  I just sat back in amazement at most of your stuff and could feel this great camaraderie of the theatre.  I love the risks you take unveiling yourself in your very poetic style.  I know that writing like that is work, but somehow you project the feeling that it really just flows right out of you.  Whether it does or not makes no difference.  If you work hard at it, the time is evidence of love in action, if its easy, well then you are to be applauded for not taking advantage of your gift in a burst of egoic “me-ness,” - a trap I am much more likely to fall into.

In the end, I feel very much connected to everybody who has committed time to this thread, and, though I feel I must go a lttle ways away for a while, it wont be far nor long ere I be back.

love,

Michael

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Dear Michael

I understand your need to alchemise….things

But I will miss your frequency of posting!

Your suggestion about the way deep and painful reactions between men and women can be communicated is interesting.

What's interesting to me is that its an impersonal solution. Men listening to women talk among themselves dont have to take the conversation as personal. There's no emotion being directly sent their way. And vice versa.

While it is safe to me, this would miss the main point of the pain between men and women.

In their souls, women are asking men to be a solid container for their emotions.

In their souls, men are asking women to show them the radiance of their love.

If men can stand present in a woman's emotional storms, and women can stay connected and caring  through a man's indifference or insensitivity (forgive the polarising cliches these are not the only situations), then we are learning to trust and love each other and receive from each other.

A woman's ability to feel her emotions deeply in any situation, and express them artistically, especially regarding men is part of her growth path. I dont want to close that off.

A man;s ability to stay present and in his deepest truth, even as a woman is raging at him, but sensitively so is part of his growth path. I wont close that off either.

This is how I feel.

Gitanjali

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Dear Mascha,

That sounds great!  Entering a nunnery!  The fact that I never thought of it before is evidence of my sincere love of women.  But, oh what an idea!  That's the temple for me and it could be the start of a whole new story, “Yogi Goes Starkers in the Nunnery!” 

Thanks for the reprieve.  I am close to the end of my prolific poster career for a month or so.  I will be paying attention though, you can bet your little emoticons on that.

Love,

Michael

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

I may seem like a distant, very distant participant here…. however i assure you that my lack of posting cannot measure my depth of participation in this 'type' of work for two decades….

Now I do have a couple of things to say….  in soft voice…

Michael… i feel your tankness….  when I was in college (1975) …. carving out my own Art Therapy program… i kept an easel in the living room to sketch my emotions….  emotions so deep I could not find words to express them…..  One day I found myself drawing a BULLDOZER!  hummmmmm… I suddenly realized that that was me! A huge crayon-red bulldozer.  And thus began the intense journey to find why that was so when all my heart cried for was peace and understanding - peace and understanding within and around about me…

To everyone else…..  taking a deep breath…  last night I resurrected my journal files and pulled out this quote (see below), posted it in Zaadz quotes, and sent a copy to Mascha…..
(Masha asked that I share it here)………

I was becoming weary of seeing (here) all the same 'STUFF' unfold again and again after all these many years of processing 'it' and having read, back then, Tilly Olsen's  writing on Silenced.

IMHO, i am reminded again, that feminists anger and deep wailing is what began women's search for the spiritual within….  at the core the early feminist's hungered for: wisdom, peace, compassion and a patient ear… my own spiritual journey began with huge anger at being silenced… yet I was also the bulldozer trying to break through the confusion and anger within and round about.

I have been with you all the way through the Integral thread….. and decided to send you this….  it has been in my files for two decades while i have been disengaging from men (not hating them, just avoiding intimate relationships with them) and going on alone….

When we try to explain the complexity of what we see to others who demand that things be laid out in straight paths, they often become resistent and critical… when our viewpoint repeatedly falls on deaf ears, we become silent - avoid confrontation. One source of human suffering arises when our words and actions are perceived, by those we serve or love, in a light of being different from that intended.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Okay, i must jump in. I’ve held back as a non-participant of the “song” itself, but i have been profoundly moved by what’s happening here, and involved somehow in the undercurrents, and Mascha has nudged, uh, drop-kicked me into the arena ( i love you, Mascha), so i’ve landed, and hello.

You magnificent people. You make me weep. Your courage and wisdom and feeling for each other, and for the truth, oh! To see you each show up in your own particular version of willingness, brio, and touchiness endows me with renewed inspiration and with sober vision of the task before us. I prefer inspiration that has density like this. I can no longer abide the rootless celestial ecstasies of my youth, they whip this nervous system into a frenzy of sparks and sputters, and it sputters out and depletes this body, so i am grateful grateful grateful for the love-drenched mess here. I don’t know if this makes any sense. Please bear with me. I am simply so grateful for your wisdom, and this fecund collaborative expression of it. I am also grateful for your lack of wisdom and lack of freedom from reactivity, and your willingness to expose yerselves.

As i was telling Mascha, i feel quickened by the alchemy of this interaction. Do you know those moments when you feel an internal movement like a kaleidoscopic shift, the one that weakens the old pattern to the point of collapse and then, bam, it all falls into a new configuration, and there’s a new integration, there’s literally more wholeness, and you’re seeing through it? Or living through it. And experiencing it living through you.

Observing this process is catalyzing integration for me.

Bruce, your nuanced insight into the nineness of your response, and your quiet humor in the face of it, your awesome clarity and the simple courage you embody… I appreciate you so much, and feel enlightened by your revealing the machinations of nineness. My partner is a nine, and I sometimes injure him in not being able to see or relate to or have compassion for his motivations. You shed light, my dear.

Gitanjali, I love your luscious presence and thank you for this, which aroused my tears, and for so much more:

“…the main point of the pain between men and women (:)
In their souls, women are asking men to be a solid container for their emotions.
In their souls, men are asking women to show them the radiance of their love.
If men can stand present in a woman's emotional storms, and women can stay connected and caring  through a man's indifference or insensitivity (forgive the polarising cliches these are not the only situations), then we are learning to trust and love each other and receive from each other”

Mascha and Michael and Mary, I have already written you. I hope you can feel the wonder you inspire in me as you each dance.

Colin, I just love you! you! so often you speak my feelings and thoughts, so that I don’t know them whole until you articulate them… and sometimes not, too, yet your strength and humility are so generously offered I enjoy not-resonating with your thoughts almost as much as I enjoy resonating with them.
And thanks for this:
“You can bet that just about any time any of the precious, strong, fragile jewels passing this way experience intense reactions to anything that anyone says, we're deep into Shadow land. Projections abound. Look, listen and learn.”

Jane you are magnificent beyond belief. I get drunk on you.

I have to go teach now, but I hope to have the energy later to speak directly to Michael’s idea about women talking about these things in a dedicated women’s space, and men doing the same in their own space, and the others of us observing. I have some ideas about this. I also hope to have a chance to elaborate on the thoughts behind the words of mine that Mascha quoted, to contextualize them and to say more.

Thank you everyone, every voice and heart on this thread. And to those who’ve been able to allow themselves to be really vulnerable here, this is me bowing. Too bad I still haven’t mastered the smilie arts yet. Mascha must have a good prostrating smilie.

Love,
Lauren

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Here you go, Lauren. Bows to Peggy and everyone too for speaking up much more calmly than I could yesterday.  

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Thank you, Lauren and Peggy, for joining this conversation – for taking the journey with us in the 'Song of the Nile,' and for having the courage and love, as seeming outsiders, to jump into this fray!  I was moved by what both of you have offered – your responses to all of us here, and your own histories of working with and through these issues.  I hear Mary's warning that deep shadow work and psychological processing is better done in safe, personal, in-the-flesh settings, not in a relatively open (and anonymous) forum like this; and I agree that the deepest work will probably always happen in such settings.  And yet there is something valuable and authentic that can happen here in cyberspace as well, and I am thankful we are making the gifts of our presence available to each other.

On my Krishnamurti pod, several of us have been talking this past week about the “mirror of relationship” – one of K's favorite phrases.  As K says, if we want to know ourselves, we should look at our relationships – to ourselves, to our families, to our friends, to our environments and societies, etc.  In the discussion we were having, one member commented that relationships aren't really mirrors unless we want them to be.  We have to be willing to be vulnerable to what they will show us, once we start looking.  It's not often that a group of people comes together with this sort of willingness, but I think that is happening here, and it's truly wonderful.

In the story, when Melchizzedek first arrived at the palace in the form of the gazelle and started working his magic, I injected a scene that I hoped Diamond Approach people would pick up on:  the tiles on the floor opened up and appeared as bottomless holes.  I was wanting to suggest a growing awareness of holes in the 'palace,' which could serve as both a warning and an invitation.  Inadequate mirroring in relationship contributes to the formation of what Almaas calls holes: when essence (true nature, buddha-nature) is not present or recognized by our caregivers in our presence, it is not reflected back to us as children, and we lose touch with our own essence and our essential qualities.  We experience these lost connections literally as holes, and then we fill the holes with all the props of the personality – images, beliefs, habits, compensatory patterns, etc. 

The appearance of the holes in the palace floor was a warning that much of the flashiness and drama of the palace (and even of the story we were weaving together) might turn out to be “hole fillers”; but it was also an invitation, because the holes, being bottomless, open onto the boundlessness of Presence if we are willing to dive in.

I did not find a place to expand on the image in the story, though I had considered doing so at the pools of Abydos.  But it seems to me that, in the mirror of our relationships, we are beginning to do hole-diving here.  At least we are all standing around the edges, looking in.

Best wishes,

Balder

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

To add something that is probably obvious, but which ties in with the ideas in my last post:  I believe the women in the story largely rejected the recurrent sex, drugs, and violence in the story, not just because of their “male agency,” but because they appeared to represent just more “hole filling” behavior … literally and figuratively.   :)

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Colin said earlier this morning:
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………
“Balder. Oh, the energy just rushed up my spine and I got a flash of tears when I read this:
But there's a part of me that just wants to react in panic, to reach out and do something so that all of you nice, precious characters in “my” world don't get out of control and make this comfortable little oasis explode…into the chaos and grief, the dangerous rage that I used to fear erupting in my home when I was a youth.

Oh, how I can relate to that. The small, wounded one cringes and then the Rescuer comes crashing through the door wearing a White hat.

This tendency is what I side-stepped in my previous post. Thanks for all you said for so many of us.”

………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..

The White hat you mention… is that a hard hat in American speak? That would make sense.

So,
is there anyone among us who is not deeply fueled by the Protector/Rescuer archetype like a bunny by the Energizer?

I'm asking, because that's my m.o.

…Just like everyone else in the Nile story, it seems, I as Princess Rani, was telling the story of a Messenger from Unknown origins (hint, hint), ready to sacrifice myself, even die to serve the innermost Beloved's purpose in Egypt, which meant either transforming the delusional Pharaoh with my love - or smite him to save the people from further ruin and loss of autonomy.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

The White hat you mention… is that a hard hat in American speak? That would make sense.

The White hat I meant is that worn by the Good Guy (vs. the Bad Guy). You know, dashing in on a white horse to save the day (or die trying).

Hard headed-hat is a shadow of that image, me thinks.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Aha.

thanks for rescuing my character as Khepri  the Super Heart  Scarab and as High  Priest RA.
 You rocked as a rescue team!  :-)

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Blushing….caught!

Yes, I did don the white hat then, didn't I…apparently, sometimes I just can't help myself. Especially in a beautifully-scripted live-action “story”! Veeeerrrrry interesting. I am a bit more hesitant now in “real” life.

Thanks for pointing that out!

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Crying in the experience of this beauty unfolding.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

I haven't posted because I haven't had time to properly devote to this thread and it's parent thread. I had no idea of its importance until it was too late to read it all before my latest trip. I'm looking forward to reading it and drinking it all in.

Namaste,

Liz

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

I'm at the library now, putting out notes to everyone I consider important in my life now….  I will be away several days… and suddenly feeling very alone….  What mirror is that???? :)  Zaadz plays a major role in my life!

Love and support,
PJ

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Bruce/Balder,

Earlier in this thread you mentioned your upbringing and how that environment had shaped you into a nine on the Enneagram. I guess we can all see and resonate with such a connection between childhood and personality.

My question to you is do you think you would have been a nine even without those experiences early in your life? I'm thinking now in terms of each person having a false relative self and an authentic relative self, where the false part is shaped by the environment as we grow up and the authentic part is innate. In other words a person could be shaped into one of the Enneagram categories but later in life as healing occurs slowly drift into another category. Does this make sense? The authentic relative self, as I define it, is not the soul, it is the relative samsaric part that does not distance us from the soul but instead “connects seamlessly” to it.

My own experience is that my false and authentic relative self have different positions in the Enneagram and that I'm gradually reclaiming what I truly am.


Pelle

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Pelle, that's an interesting question, and I don't know the answer.  When my parents describe some of my activities to me as a child, they still sound somewhat Nine-ish to me, but I am not sure how early these sorts of personality patterns are established.  I have considered – even very recently – what it would be like to act more from a different “center”…asking myself that not as an intellectual curiosity, but in response to an impulse to enter vitally into particular dimensions of myself.  Although one could say this is Nine-ish too, I found when I took a course on the Enneagram that I could strongly identify with a number of the types, not just the “wings” of 9, but a number of others. 

I'm willing to consider that my 9-ness may be mostly my “defensive personality,” though I hope not!  That would mean I have much more work ahead of me than I've feared on my worst days….

About the divisions you are drawing between types or levels of self and being, the model you're proposing is fairly close to the Diamond Approach.  More nuanced, perhaps.  The Diamond Approach, according to my present knowledge of it, at least, speaks mainly in terms of three levels – the self-structure, which is largely defensive and compensatory and founded on “holes”; the Soul, which exhibits Personal Essence and is a fluid medium of Essential Qualities; and then impersonal (timeless, boundless, dynamic) Being.  All three levels are actually expressions of essence, but the small self tends to obscure direct self-awareness of essence or true nature.

Best wishes,

Balder

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Can someone recommend a good introduction to the Eneagram stuff? Maybe something online? I haven't gotten into that yet. I browsed through a few books once, but I didn't see one that really grabbed me.

That's cool to hear about the Diamond Approach view, Bruce.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Try this book.

This is what Ken has to say about it:

”The Wisdom of the Enneagram is a very important book. By combining the horizontal types of the Enneagram with a system of vertical levels of awareness, Riso and Hudson have produced one of the first truly integrated models of the human psyche. In addition to the importance of this pioneering work itself, it goes to point up the utter inadequacy of anything less than a full-spectrum model of human growth and development. Highly recommended.”
–Ken Wilber, author of The Marriage of Sense and Soul

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

The Diamond Approach has an interesting and fruitful approach to using the Enneagram as part of its overall transformative program.  Almaas talks about it here.  At Gitanjali's request, I plan on starting an Enneagram thread in my Diamond Approach pod before long…..

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Also, here's a link to Riso and Hudson's Enneagram Institute, where you can (for a fee) take an online test to find out what your Enneagram type is. (Their short, free test is not as accurate).

There's a very introductory book by Renee Baron and Elizabeth Wagele, entitled The Enneagram Made Easy. Not in depth like Riso and Hudson's work, but their personality inventories are good at helping you see what type you are. They also look at how the Jungian / Myers Briggs Type Indicator helps to explain subtle variations within the Enneagram type.

Balder, let us know here when you start that thread on the Enneagram over at the other pod – post a link in the Chapel or something. (I'd thought about starting a thread on it right here, but I don't have time to do so this week …)

Salud,
Mary  

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Thanks for the Eneagram link, Mary.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

This thread has reminded me of why I now have tremendous compassion for all beings. On some level, each one of us is wounded. Humanity has a devastating history. Some of us heal enough to make a good life; many do not. For every asshole out in the world, there is a small, wounded self inside.

May we all find peace and may we help each other on the way.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Gitanjali:
In their souls, women are asking men to be a solid container for their emotions.
In their souls, men are asking women to show them the radiance of their love.
If men can stand present in a woman's emotional storms, and women can stay connected and caring  through a man's indifference or insensitivity (forgive the polarising cliches these are not the only situations), then we are learning to trust and love each other and receive from each other”

These are not polarising clichés, they are excellent examples of masculine-feminine polarization.

Pelle

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Dear Peggy,

having your computer in the emergency room is like having one's 4th brain removed - a bereavement, a crippling of major antennae, poor girl.  I remember my laptop conking out and being gone for a week after I had developed this creeping addiction to the people at the Multiplex last fall (who are mostly all here now with some notable exceptions). I moved heaven & hell to speed up repairs - not because I needed the damn thing for work, which I certainly did. No, the craving was to read everyone's latest posts. How sad is that?

Colin said about saving people at one's own peril:

“……Yes, I did don the white hat then, didn't I…apparently, sometimes I just can't help myself…… Veeeerrrrry interesting. I am a bit more hesitant now in “real” life.”

Me too - to the bolded parts. I've sworn plenty of oaths to stay out of the “Messenger from heaven with Samurai sword, speaking truth to Power” business for good. No exaggeration - it's a miracle I'm alive for all the shit I've poked my stick into to rid stagnant swamps of demons and crocodiles.

But somewhere along the road I  also went overboard and became what I was fighting against as a protector/savior/ messenger. The woman who told me that I had bullied and figuratively raped her was cut from my life in one blow and a rage so fierce, I haven't spoken to her ever since. It's been years.

Pride….

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Hoping my two cents isn't irrelevant at this point, but I need to honor my choice to comment.  As far as the story, I really had fun reading and participating.  A question–do any of you picture me as dark-skinned with dark hair?  We have no idea (for the most part) who the others (us) are, much less any shadows they may be projecting.  It seems to me that we all played at different levels from different perspectives.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that for me it was a fun, thought-provoking, relatively spontaneous, creative expression.  The interpretation of the expression(s) is not objective.  I am your story of me.  How could it be any different?
Thank you All,
Chris

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Chris: “A question–do any of you picture me as dark-skinned with dark hair?”

No Chris, you're a tall, lanky blonde. Very independent and versatile with regions of wildness inside where no one has wandered in a long, long time, except you. You stand alone there in a silent kosmic wind.

:-) My 1 cents worth.


Also, I believe that the energy emanating from people's letters here is palpable and can be 'read' fairly accurately if you 'know ' a poster for a while. Even the 'pale and hidden ones' come across rather vividly after a certain number of posts. At least for me - and speaking only on an energy level.

Oh, and now I have to add that there are some stunning, even shocking surprises sometimes. One such for me was when Ramsses wrote on this thread that he was representing the Absolute in the story as the Pharaoh. He was writing a still-life tableaux with Egypt as paradise for us weary travelers to languish in, peacefully admiring the temporary reprieve from toil and turmoil he was affording us. … I was shocked, frankly.

Love to you,

M

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

I'm just breathing you all in. How precious this is.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

you,
all,

I'm still raw with gratitude.
and delirious after long day, ended with Babel which just finished, and making it back to the computer for the first time since this morning.
in no place to write after Babel,
but staring into the pools here,
the reflections are clear,
inviting, and beautiful.

yours,
lauren

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

I haven't soaked this all in yet. I seem to be on slow tempo, andante, these days …

But I somehow sense that this thread has carved out for us a wider space, a deeper groove, for this pod as a whole. Room for more vulnerability and heart. There is a feeling of breadth and “newness.”

And it's not that everything is resolved or that we're all comfortable with this opened-up place. It's just that muddy-freshness-after-a-storm feeling. New rivulets in formerly hidden places, new grasses on the verge of sprouting.

The floods of the Nile do bring riches.

Bless you all!

Mary

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

The deeper meaning of the Nile is that it is the kundalini rising up the spine to awaken in the brow where it assumes the aspect of the cobra, protective to worshippers and deadly to enemies.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Pelle: “I'm thinking now in terms of each person having a false relative self and an authentic relative self, where the false part is shaped by the environment as we grow up and the authentic part is innate. In other words a person could be shaped into one of the Enneagram categories but later in life as healing occurs slowly drift into another category. Does this make sense? The authentic relative self, as I define it, is not the soul, it is the relative samsaric part that does not distance us from the soul but instead “connects seamlessly” to it.”

This makes sense, pelle, but I'd like to offer something slightly different, which is how Andrew Cohen views the authentic and false parts of ourselves, or, in his words, the authentic self and ego. He's done a lot of really good work in this area. His view–my words–is that there is an ego (a relative self), a soul, and an authentic self, which is actually not a relative self but is actually a function of the Absolute. The authentic self in his teaching is the evolutionary impulse, that which came from nothing 14 billion years ago and which has been creating the universe ever since. It is, in Andrew's words, “the best part of me and the best part of you,” and it is already free. It is not bound by time; it is ecstatic, has no history, and is only concerned with creating the future. It is also the deeper psychic in Ken's model and the psychic being in Aurobindo's model. The soul is something that is more relative, more personal, and yet, perhaps, slightly impersonal and perhaps even something that we share together to some extent.

The ego, in Andrew's teachings, is always personal, will always take the position of the victim, and will resist change and evolution always. It is concerned with preserving its sense of self and separateness. The authentic self is totally free and always happy, ecstatic and not personal at all (no history);  your authentic self and my authentic self are the exact same thing, and if several people get together and speak from this authentic self they might find that it is really one conscious being, or the New Being as Andrew calls it. The ego already knows everything; the soul wants to know; the authentic self is kind of a Knowing that acts out of the great Unknowing of the ground of being. The ego is the separate-self sense; the authentic self is, again, that part of us that creates the future and that really doesn't have the sense that it is separate; it is ecstatic, the ecastatic evolutionary impulse, free.

That's my best attempt at explaining Andrew's ideas about these things at the moment. I find it very useful. You can read some very general stuff about it here; read Ken and Andrew discussing it here, and listen to a video of Michael Murphy and Andrew Cohen discussing it in a nine-minute video here (it is the fourth to last video on the list).

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

David, thanks for sharing the terminology of Andrew Cohen.

The way I understand it Andrew is mostly focused on absolute emancipation, and therefore has a language use that is well fitted for this purpose. When discussing the enneagram and personality structure I find it useful to have a terminology that can describe relative emancipation, in other words how psychological healing and growth can make our ego structure more authentic and functional.

We could also combine both systems and get something like this:

false relative self (ego, unhealthy)
authentic relative self (ego, healthy)
Soul (transcends ego, but still personal)
Impersonal Authentic Self (universal creative impulse)


Mascha, I hear you on the energy. It is so present in everyone's posts and sometimes it even jumps out at you through the screen. This thread is so precious and I'm thankful to be here reading it and being part of it in small ways.


Love to all,


Pelle

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

That sounds really good to me, pelle. We might also add “inauthentic soul” or “unhealthy soul” or something.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Thanks so much, guys. That's perfect.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

A little earlier in this thread Mary said:

“….. I somehow sense that this thread has carved out for us a wider space, a deeper groove, for this pod as a whole. Room for more vulnerability and heart. There is a feeling of breadth and “newness.”

And it's not that everything is resolved or that we're all comfortable with this opened-up place. It's just that muddy-freshness-after-a-storm feeling. New rivulets in formerly hidden places, new grasses on the verge of sprouting.

The floods of the Nile do bring riches.”

Exploring these riches… that's what I'm most drawn to right now. For me and many others - especially women judging from their PMs - some houses shook, certain walls came tumbling down. I found my voice… I think. And I thank Michael for being a major catalyst. His courage to be brazen, breach certain unspoken contracts in the WE space here, act like a fucking show-stopper, constantly raise the stakes, come hell and high water… well, that happened to be my clarion call.

I've put my foot in my mouth before in many posts, had the nerve to embarrass myself, shoot from the hip and face the consequences later… But now an energy is rising in me that is new and different. Tempered by Balder's solid anchoring in the four corners of the Kosmos, warmed by Mary's breath every time she speaks… (and I won't mention all the other major contributors, that's going too far. I hope you know who you are)… this is beginning to feel like an almost safe place to plant roses, my favorites, thorns and all - notoriously difficult to cultivate cuz they need so many special conditions to profligate and a single blast of frost can kill them all.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Mascha, I am over here, not far! I have been busy with stuff, and also watching the making of the Song thread….and needing some time to digest and ponder. This has been kind of an amazing week in cyberville for me…..seems like a bunch of old patterns were illuminated to a new acute clarity and perhaps, some spells were collectively broken…..

Even though we have not PM’d a lot, I have always felt an affinity for you, way back when you showed up on IN last year. Same with Gita…. I think about Helen(e) spamming all over the anima woman thread..( which is when I packed up over there…) however, I really needed to finish that particular conversation.

I remember when we talked about the movie, ‘love actually’ —the stuckness and empathy, that most of us felt as women around the Emma Thompson character. And then how Gita had the clarity to point out that in spite of her stoic, mothering behaviour, Emma was a second stage woman (in Deida speak), not truly opening to her feminine radiance….. Most of us, or at least, I felt an intense empathetic humiliation with her when her partner (Alan Rickson) had the affair with the sexy office girl…. I think we were all feeling helpless, the same old, men-are-the-problem-cheating-bastards….not unlike witnessing my mother’s utter humiliation, and martyring behaviour under similar circumstances when I was little, and the same ferocious, pissed offness at my father for his cheating behaviour too…..Somewhere in that childhood situation, I became ‘voiceless’ and ‘helpless’. The wild flower you posted reminded me of that voicelessness. And Ramsses telling me that if “women care so much we would not tolerate this shit” spurred me further….. Also, I have been doing on-going work with Robert Masters, which really is about birthing this voice, this Feminine Voice….with integrity, heart and strength….

The fairy tale of the ‘littlest mermaid’ by Hans Christian Andersen, is really about this voice too. The little mermaid saves the prince from shipwreck, falls in love with him, and then in the deal to be permitted to follow him back to the palace, she loses her beautiful tail, each step on her feet is like walking on knives, and she gives away her last song, and becomes mute. . Then to make it worse, there is the caveate that if the prince falls in love with someone else, she will wash back into the sea as a bit of sea foam. Of course, he does, and she does….and I am sure I can remember the tears and the sadness when I first read that as a nine year old….How could the prince forsaken that little mermaid, the mermaid that saved his life and gave up everything?!(men are all bastards, you can’t do enough, yada, yada….) But with a sober second thought, which took more years than I care to admit, who the heck wants to be in a relationship with mute crippled girl out of a sense of fuduciary, obligatory responsibility?! Mature relationships are not possible with voiceless women. And how often have I been voiceless, even when the screaming in my head was deafening? I guess it is a simple as changing my mind. I know how to speak, nobody is making me mute but me…..I might not be listened to, and maybe most men are insensitive bastards but that is not my problem…. and my acting with that belief or, ‘as if’ it is the situation that men are insensitive bastards has been a huge contributing factor to creating my reality that this would indeed be so…..

I have spent my jail time with men who don’t ‘get me’…and as frustrating as that was, and as hard as this was to admit, that was my choice. I chose that over and above being alone, and over and above opening myself up to the possibility that some man some where might ‘get me’, and then, woe is me, reject/abandon me….. and over and above the pain of facing the possibility that I might have to do some rejecting myself of men that fall in love with me, but I don’t care for. I have also chosen to be alone for long periods rather than risk any of the above situations repeating….

But really, at some point, I am responsible for saying what I want, and then being strong enough to accept the outcome. “Freedom is that ability to have or not have what I want and still keep my heart open.” ‘like a bird on a wire, like a drunk in a midnight choir, I have tried in my way to be free….” I think I am finally really understanding this…..it seems to me, that somehow, we all are. I love us…I love our voices….thank you for being with me together on this journey. As simple as the lesson seems to be, it is also transformational.
love
Jane

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

profligate, no, proliferate is what roses should do. I wish we could edit posts for more than 15 mins.

:D)

Dear Jane, I just saw your latest letter. Will absorb and come back with more.

Love

Mascha

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Pelle,

Thank you you r thoughts about the difference between absolute and relative emancipation. I found it enlightening.

and to everyone,

I wonder… absolute emancipation.. why should we think much about it? I mean, we don't need to, do we? It IS. You ARE. How can we conceptualize it without getting trapped, I think, in a dogma-drugged masquerade of spiritual materialism and posturing? Having a concept of it is important, but I am skeptical about teaching it or even talking about it much, or ever taking the concept too literally. It is essential and foundational. In the same way we don't need to think/talk much about air and breath, we don't even need be conscious of them really, but to be conscious and fully present to them so that we can fully experience and appreciate this delicious breath, and this delicious breath, and this… that is a blessing. Concepts should not be equated with presence; though one can be fully present in a conceptual mode, it's relatively rare. Far more often concepts are used to distance oneself from raw presence.

I am attracted to mentors and teachers who are deeply committed to the “psychological healing and growth (that) make(s) our ego structure more authentic and functional.” (from Pelle.) And who simply rest in authentic presence. Attending to the horizontal and becoming more integrated, and serving that process in others, and letting evolution take care of itself. But holding to the center of the cross, never mistaking the horizontal healings and integrations for an arrival at perfection, rather, celebrating that (as Douglas Brooks says) “in an infinitely expanding universe enlightenment never ends, there is nothing to acheive; perfect always gets more perfect.”

I notice how easy it is (for myself) to substitute the compensatory delights of conceptual play for real presence to the full experience of now, and in that way to create a buffer between myself and bare experience. To escape a vulnerability that is actually the purest condition of being, but that seems, to the ego, unbearable. I have been aware of this tendency, to use the pleasures of thought and conversation to create a false sense of security, of self, and have been actively questioning the habit for almost as long, with the intention to increase self-awareness and accountability, to remember that feeling a sense of (false) security and solidity of self are not my deepest intentions, and to shift my behaviors accordingly. And yet, what a tenacious pattern it is! How seductive is the world of thought and concepts! And in truth, such beauty and inspiration do curl and pulse in the dna of the pure concept, that when a concept emerges from this place of order and clarity, it can bear a kind of transmission of the absolute, and catalyze transformation. I celebrate the realm of concepts, but I am cautious when I notice myself lost in their thrall. And when I am aware enough, I discern whether I am playing in thought to move into Union, or whether I am indulging mental calisthenics to avoid it.

I believe practice is of the deepest benefit. Practicing with absolute sincerity, but with a humorous skepticism towards your ambitions and attachments, and an awareness that your motives will get corrupted time and time again. Practice at its heart is stepping into vulnerability, unbelievable vulnerability. Sincere practice is an act of great courage. In fact, I think sincere practice is any moment in which we surrender completely to the vulnerability of our essential being.

I bring this all up here because what I've witnessed and been moved by on this thread is people really showing up in that exquisite vulnerability. Perhaps with some tentativeness, and not everyone to the same extent at all, but each, by their presence here, is acting courageously. This thread is a crucible, and by your presence here you announce your longings, own your strength, and reveal your shadows.

And here I am still dancing towards the heart of what I want to say.
The feminine voice is essential.
It is not a small problem in this community that the Feminine is dismissed.
I feel it is an essential problem, in that everything integral has the power to do is undermined by the community’s failure to fully honor the Feminine.

All the wisdom that integral has to offer, all the cognitive illumination, the healing and integration, the evolution of thought and the promise of inter-perspective fertility and collaboration, it is all compromised on a fundamental level by the failure of the larger integral community to embrace and live communion as wholeheartedly as it does agency. And the persistence of indifference towards or disinterest in what women have to say and what women are feeling and what men have to say when they are in a more feminine mode (for it is really this ultimately, what the Feminine has to say, regardless of who it speaks through) displayed by many (dare I say most? I’m not sure that that is accurate, but it may be…) of the men of integral, is damning. I think this disinterest can manifest in very subtle ways (as well as the usual obvious ways). It feels to me like a disengagement of attention, a subtle shift into “I don’t really have to pay as much attention to what She is saying” attitude. Or simply ”that does not interest me so I’m not going to contemplate it that deeply,” clearly a necessary act of discrimination which much be employed by all of us many times during our time spent here (on zaadz), but unconsciously and disproportionately employed by some whenever it is the Feminine speaking.

I know that the exceptions to these patterns abound, especially in interactions among those who’ve stuck with this thread so far, and that no matter how I say this defensiveness will be aroused, and fault found with my argument because it is clearly not that simple, not exclusively true, and possibly, not very often true with you. But do not discredit my thoughts because I haven’t bent over backwards here to acknowledge (and bow down in gratitude) to those of you who have grown or are growing beyond this tendency. Or because I am angry. (This anger is Love. Maybe that’s really hard to believe, but can you try?) Or because you can find fault with my argument, or my delivery. I’m sure you can. I’m sure some of the it is legitimate. Regardless, there is something being said here, that the women and some of the men of these forums have been saying and asking to be heard saying for a long, long time. Are you interested? If you aren’t, why not?
If I speak to a quality of scorn or dismissiveness that I have experienced or observed, and you know you are not like that, then don’t take it personally; in that case, it’s not about you. (Unless you feel really defensive, and then it probably is …)

It is deeper even than the relationships between men and women, or the Masculine and the Feminine as they play out in the polarities between people. It is deeper than the fact that our relationships which seek to engage and delight in the glorious polarity so often, so dismally, fail to engage those energies with joy and true, abiding, mutual respect. It plays out in the dynamics between people here often, most commonly between those who identify as primarily Masculine and those who identify as primarily Feminine in their deepest character. But it is deeper than all of this. The longing for realization of healthy Masculine presence and Feminine expression speaks to a deeper imbalance than that evidenced in our human relations. It is reflected in our primary relationships to Self, culture, and nature. And in each of these primary relationships we are a people in distress, out of balance.

The forces that sustain us, forces of nature and forces of consciousness – our way of being and our way of interacting with each other express such disharmony with these deepest forces. Our collective relationship to the Feminine is on egregious display in our profoundly arrogant and misguided indifference to the beauty, subtlety, grace, and inescapability of Nature. Earth contains us, as human organisms, not we it. As Thomas Berry says in Evening Thoughts (the book Jane recently recommended somewhere here and which I am devouring): “Hope for a renewal of the creative forces of the planet lies in a reali zation that the Earth is primary and that humans are derivative. That this dependence of the human on the integral functioning of the planet should be so obvious and yet so consistently denied and so extensively violated is beyond comprehension.”

I believe that this deNile of our own inherent Nature would not be possible were we living in a way, in a consciousness, that honors the Feminine and the Masculine equally. Yet this fear of the Feminine, of Nature, body, emotion, intuition, and life is so deeply and unconsciously conditioned, I can only see us transforming this disease through full and conscious acknowledgement that it exists. Through owning the countless ways it manifests. Through being accountable to how it is manifesting in you, in your habits and relations and biases…

That is why, when the Feminine here in our IIzaadz community sometimes rages or cuts or speaks plain truth or demands attention, She is acting in love. She is standing for truth. She is embodying courage. And She is calling us all forth, asking us to be who we really are, to drop the fear and defensiveness and to step into our true strength.

If you care about Integral, then you must fight to bring the Feminine true respect – the respect embodied in acts of attention and interest. You must learn to truly SEE her.
Otherwise, you are not integrated, and your actions indicate that you don't care enough to be integrated. What’s integral about that?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Should this be a new thread?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I want to share something Chogyam Trungpa said that I love, hopefully its relevance is evident:

“If you search for awakened heart, if you put your hand through your rib cage and feel for it, there is nothing there except for tenderness. You feel sore and soft, and if you open your eyes to the rest of the world, you feel tremendous sadness. This kind of sadness doesn’t come from being mistreated. You don’t feel sad because someone has insulted you or because you feel impoverished. Rather, this experience of sadness is unconditioned. It occurs because your heart is completely exposed. There is no skin or tissue covering it; it is pure raw meat. Even if a tiny mosquito lands on it, you feel so touched. Your experience is raw and tender and so personal.

The genuine heart of sadness comes from feeling that your nonexistent heart is full. You would like to spill your heart’s blood, give your heart to others. For the warrior, this experience of sad and tender heart is what gives birth to fearlessness. Conventionally, being fearless means that you are not afraid or that, if someone hits you, you will hit him back. However, we are not talking about that street-fighter level of fearlessness. Real fearlessness is the product of tenderness. It comes from letting the world tickle your heart, your raw and beautiful heart. You are willing to open up, without resistance or shyness, and face the world. You are willing to share your heart with others.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Miraculous, Lauren.

At first I was jubilant, hearing that Voice. Then stunned. Then just in awe.

This is She speaking, older than God.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Beautiful Lauren, really, provocative, disturbing and real beyond reality.

“Should this be a new thread?”

I think so.  It is an issue greater than the Song debrief can hold and, though definitely not off-topic, still deserves its own space.

yer pal,
Michael

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Exquisite vulnerability

She speaking

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Lauren:
Sincere practice is an act of great courage. In fact, I think sincere practice is any moment in which we surrender completely to the vulnerability of our essential being.

When I read this, even before reading the rest of your text, I said to myself: “This is the feminine voice speaking”.
The feminine voice is definitely something Integral needs, and I welcome it wholeheartedly. When I first started posting over at IN, the lines were so straight and the thoughts so clean that I dared not mention my interest in healing and Reiki for several weeks. It took more than half a year and a move to IIZaadz before I spoke up about my interest in non-locality and the general messiness of transpersonal spirituality, a messiness that AQAL does not address except very very indirectly. Not that I don't like discussing concepts and coherence within Integral Theory, you all know I do and after all I am predominantly masculine, but without my feminine substreams I don't feel like a complete human being.

So welcome feminine voices, you are wanted and you are being heard.

At the same time it is important to remember that you won't be heard unless you speak up, like many of you are doing now. And speaking up entails a certain measure of risk, there is no getting around this. Posting very often means sharing parts of yourself, but there is no knowing how a post will be received. It can be ignored, rejected, at times even ridiculed. This is the risk we all take, and for women to be heard they need to accept this risk too. This thread is a blessing that way because several women seem to truly have found their voice and transcended fear…


BTW, I don't feel we should move this discussion to another thread. There is already deep sharing going on here and let's nurture that space instead of abandoning it.


with love to all,


Pelle

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

I am sitting at the Prada Cafe on Commercial Drive. It is 7am, Robert Masters coming up later in the day, Arthur and Liz must have driving by here just a few hours ago on their way south…the coffee and the music are gentle and rich, and oh, God, so is Life.

I love your post Lauren. I think the issue of the Feminine Voice in Integral is critical….not the male conceptual version of the Feminine, but the real voice….with the requisite tears and bursting joy, the messiness, the juice, the non-rational, and abundance and anger, and renewal….a voice that resides in all of our hearts regardless of gender.

There have been many times watching the parade of talking heads on integral naked, and I have wondered:, where is the dancing, what did they have for lunch, when did they just dig their hands and feet into the muddy garden, and be. Even most of the women that show up there on the integral offerings seem to have passed some male integral approval test….in some ways, Helen(e) inveterate spammer and relentless splasher of silly irrelevance and mess all over the boards, has been the most fearless voice….. she has showed up at the cosmic dance floor and refused to sit down, or even tone down, taking up more space than the rest of us can function with….and as much as her voice creates a dysfunction, making heaps out of holons, I always appreciated this about her, even as I realized that I wasn’t going to ask her over to dinner any time soon.

Life in the muddiness of the mud….truly present to the rawness and the vulnerability in my heart, and making the choice to feel the fear, the joy, the inevitable heartbreak and stay present anyway…..It is a life of perfect error.
I love you all, and thank you, thank you.
Jane

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Jane,

” … digging in the mud together”  “It is a life of perfect error.”  We bring perfection to the inevitability of error when we face it head on by owning only our part of the “error.”  I love both of these images Jane.

Pelle,

I hope you don't think that I was suggesting we abandon the Song debrief and move this male/female agenic subject “away” so as to be “free” of it.  For me, the male/female discussion is much larger than the male-male basic theme pursued in the Song.  I would be pleased to follow it to another thread.  I think that the depth of this discussion has overwhelmed the Song itself. As the principal prosecutor of the initially male-male theme of the Song, I welcomed the participation of women and blithely went forward, never really considering the agenic issues until they rose in the debrief.  Now, it has become a very important discussion about the thwarting of the feminine voice across the I-I and beyond.  I do see this as “on-topic” for the Song's failings, but the much larger issue of male/female agenics deserves its own space.  I can see it, the discussion, evolving into a fertile revolution where men and women can truly come to understand one another's interests, get down, dig in the dirt together, and lead this life of “perfect error,” as it is error, I think, that leads to evolution.

yer pal,
Michael

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Lauren…thank you. Thank you for bringing the Feminine presence so solidly forward here. I was literally transfixed while reading your post.

I did not feel defensive by any of what you said, but I did feel into my previous comment in which one voice said “Big fucking deal.” I want to clarify that that voice was a background voice; I truly honor the feminine presence and want it to be known that the following IS a BIG fucking deal:

“it is all compromised on a fundamental level by the failure of the larger integral community to embrace and live communion as wholeheartedly as it does agency”

This is KEY! The agency is so strong; the communion takes raw risk, and we're beginning to see this emerge. What I am also struck by, though, is that I feel a need for this in the 3D world, not just online. Allowing it to coalesce here is very important; opening in this way is the true work of the next wave of human emergence, and it has to start somewhere, AND it has to get LIVE, too. Open-heartedness is easier online than in 3D; not to minimize what's happening here, but we also need this in our 3D lives. I need this in my 3D life if I am to truly step into the emerging wave with my whole body, emotions, raw feminine power. The thought of all of us creating this energizes me to my roots and scares the shit out of me all at the same time. And it is beautiful.

More later…

Thanks to all who are stepping into this space.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Thank you for that gorgeous letter, Lauren. I like to imagine that I am not complicit in sexist silencing of women, as I like to imagine that I am not party to the perpetuation of institutional racism, but the influence of our culture and our dominant modes of discourse is subtle and strong, so I find, at this point, that I really just have to be silent and to pay attention. I have to watch all of you at work, and learn from feminine presencing (including the corrections and criticisms of Integral men that have been voiced in this thread). I want to support the emergence of this voice, this energetic current, in its fullness – to let it flower, and to open channels that the Masculine current doesn’t even know to seek out or fill. I do not want to stand in its way, though I recognize that in some ways I unknowingly might.

But just as there is a silencing tendency when Masculine energy predominates, there is an undercutting of male power and ways of being that may also emerge when Feminine energy predominates – a shaming and disempowerment that most men fear and defend against. So it’s a delicate dance we’re doing here.

On a personal note, and in the interest of the vulnerability we are allowing for here, I want to say that I’ve got conflicted feelings about this dance – and I recognize I have work to do. As a Nine, a generally sensitive and “soft” person, I have noticed that I do not embody the Masculine current in a way that actually energizes and enthralls women. When men show up in tank-like, overpowering fashion, women are upset, but they also appear to be deeply attracted to that. And this has frustrated me – not as much currently, but it was a sore spot as I was growing up and looking for a lover and partner as a “sensitive male.” Having been exposed to a handful of powerful, tanklike, insensitive, often drunken and hurtful men in my life (who were rough on women and who didn’t respect artistic boys like me), I deliberately set out as a teen to “be” the sort of man that I thought women wanted – thoughtful, sensitive, chivalric, etc. Only to discover that most women I knew actually DIDN’T really want this, even though they complained about men – that they were more excited by the “bad” guys, the dangerous ones. Safe folks like me did not inspire the same passion. That’s how I viewed it at the time, at least, in the midst of my disappointment. Where to turn?

Doing Diamond Approach and other work, I have come to see how my own relationship to Male energy got skewed by having poor exemplars in my life. My father was creative and sensitive and non-confrontational, but almost every other male in my family, including my step-father (a Texas oil rig foreman), was this archetypal dysfunctional male, which gave me an incomplete picture of how Male energy can show up integrally, healthily, in life and relationship. This incomplete understanding naturally influenced my understanding of Femininity as well. My mother is actually a very strong female, and embodies the Feminine well, I believe, but in my flight from the Destructive Male (I used to slide on occasion into destructive rage), I formed an idealized image of the Feminine, and of the male in relationship to the Feminine. An image that was compensatory, not rooted in healthy, authentic versions of either.

I am learning now to stand more fully in my own strength – something I felt it was necessary to sacrifice, in order to maintain harmony, stave off my own potential for rage, and just not to be like “THEM,” the monsters who tore through my world so often. For myself, this is ongoing work – and I may still stumble in embodying my Masculine energy, just as I will stumble in my relationship with the Feminine.

But I’m here with you all.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Balder said: there is an undercutting of male power and ways of being that may also emerge when Feminine energy predominates - a shaming and disempowerment that most men fear and defend against. So it's a delicate dance we're doing here.

This is also HUGE! I see this happening all around me. Men often take the pointing out of the agentic trampling of the feminine voice as an attack, or, at minimum, a shaming. And, in some feminist circles, this DOES happen! It seems we're seeing the effects of the pendulum swinging. Return to somewhere in the center is what is needed, and it seems that the process has indeed begun (we're bringing it forward right here!)
 
The feminine voice needs to take a stand; that stand, however, should recognize that men are not to blame. We created this together. We need to heal it together.

I can't state this whole issue with as much emphasis as I feel is necessary. This is THE critical work. I have often thought of HOW this can happen: the healing, the centering, the integration of Yin and Yang. It seems like the successes of the South African Truth and Reconciliation process (I have limited knowledge of this, nomenclature included) could be adapted for this process.

Lots of work to do, both between the sexes and within each of us. Integrate, integrate, integrate. And breathe…These are very exciting times, my loved ones.

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Colin,

I totally miss this voice of yours on the new writing thread.  I utterly agree with you that the female/male agenics issue is of prime importance to the Intergral.  Men and women have the power and the will to do this leveling you suggest.  As a step towards this, I offer the suggestion that interested women commission a women-only board and men do the same.  In these boards we can discuss the issues while aiming towards a “manifesto” of sorts that might be shared in open forum.  Then, the gender-exclusive boards might take up further discussion with these statements in mind and then publish their reconsiderations.  Eventually, I think this will lead to open, respectful and mutually reverential discussion between men and women in open forum.  Generally, I think that we should take our time with this as the agenics go into deep time - how deep is hard to assess, but it is an issue itself.

Though I generally support Balder's comment that you quoted, I do not think that women are “undercutting” male power so much as admitting their deep frustration with our “blindness” about how the male agenic is so oppressive for them.  As a human, irrespective of gender, I share this ache they have so beautifully revealed.

yer pal,
Michael

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

Balder, thanks for sharing your experience. The dynamic you outlined so clearly is one that I have heard from other “sensitive” males as well. That can be a very frustrating and lonely place.

And now I'm just free-feeling/thinking: Perhaps there is a drive for the Feminine to find Her opposite in the “badass” males in an attempt to experience the Masculine: there is a dancing between engaging in and hiding from the agonizing mirror reflections because much of that agentic Masculine is being expressed in pathological ways. Yet there is a drive for touching it, bringing it into the open so that it can be heard and healed.

Fragments everywhere…

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

(Re-copying this here because it might have gotten”lost” above – and the p.s. resonates with Colin's thoughts just now –)

Hey all - I wouldn't mind having a new thread, something like “Honoring the Feminine” or “Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine,” to continue this particular discussion - I had actually been thinking about doing so myself, and then I saw Lauren's wonderful post here last night. It might draw in people who have not been following this debriefing thread, and we copy a few posts from here over to there and link the two threads. But I won't have time to devote to it until Monday or Tuesday.

I pmmed Lauren with the idea. If she or anyone else would like to do this, I'm game!

But for now I gotta go get my rear in gear -

Mary

Oh and p.s. Balder I'm intrigued by your post above - my husband is also a “sensitive male” who had the same questions about why women always seem to fall for the “bad guys.” I wonder if it's (usually younger) women's way of attempting to connect to the inner masculine … And I'm one right now who actually feels heavily feminine and communal - and think I could use lessons in agency …

Re: The Making of 'The Song of the Nile'

I support starting a new thread to discuss these issues.  I think they're important enough to deserve their own space, and I am concerned that they might distract us from exploring other issues in The Song itself if we continue here.  

If we want to continue