Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

In the highly popular and deeply communal The Making of 'The Song of the Nile' thread the conversation became increasingly focused on discussing primarily the Feminine voice, but also the Masculine.

Here is a space to continue this dialog.
In the next post I will repost several texts from that thread.


Pelle (mod)

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Lauren said Today, 5:46 AM:

Pelle,

Thank you you r thoughts about the difference between absolute and relative emancipation. I found it enlightening.

and to everyone,

I wonder… absolute emancipation.. why should we think much about it? I mean, we don't need to, do we? It IS. You ARE. How can we conceptualize it without getting trapped, I think, in a dogma-drugged masquerade of spiritual materialism and posturing? Having a concept of it is important, but I am skeptical about teaching it or even talking about it much, or ever taking the concept too literally. It is essential and foundational. In the same way we don't need to think/talk much about air and breath, we don't even need be conscious of them really, but to be conscious and fully present to them so that we can fully experience and appreciate this delicious breath, and this delicious breath, and this… that is a blessing. Concepts should not be equated with presence; though one can be fully present in a conceptual mode, it's relatively rare. Far more often concepts are used to distance oneself from raw presence.

I am attracted to mentors and teachers who are deeply committed to the “psychological healing and growth (that) make(s) our ego structure more authentic and functional.” (from Pelle.) And who simply rest in authentic presence. Attending to the horizontal and becoming more integrated, and serving that process in others, and letting evolution take care of itself. But holding to the center of the cross, never mistaking the horizontal healings and integrations for an arrival at perfection, rather, celebrating that (as Douglas Brooks says) “in an infinitely expanding universe enlightenment never ends, there is nothing to acheive; perfect always gets more perfect.”

I notice how easy it is (for myself) to substitute the compensatory delights of conceptual play for real presence to the full experience of now, and in that way to create a buffer between myself and bare experience. To escape a vulnerability that is actually the purest condition of being, but that seems, to the ego, unbearable. I have been aware of this tendency, to use the pleasures of thought and conversation to create a false sense of security, of self, and have been actively questioning the habit for almost as long, with the intention to increase self-awareness and accountability, to remember that feeling a sense of (false) security and solidity of self are not my deepest intentions, and to shift my behaviors accordingly. And yet, what a tenacious pattern it is! How seductive is the world of thought and concepts! And in truth, such beauty and inspiration do curl and pulse in the dna of the pure concept, that when a concept emerges from this place of order and clarity, it can bear a kind of transmission of the absolute, and catalyze transformation. I celebrate the realm of concepts, but I am cautious when I notice myself lost in their thrall. And when I am aware enough, I discern whether I am playing in thought to move into Union, or whether I am indulging mental calisthenics to avoid it.

I believe practice is of the deepest benefit. Practicing with absolute sincerity, but with a humorous skepticism towards your ambitions and attachments, and an awareness that your motives will get corrupted time and time again. Practice at its heart is stepping into vulnerability, unbelievable vulnerability. Sincere practice is an act of great courage. In fact, I think sincere practice is any moment in which we surrender completely to the vulnerability of our essential being.

I bring this all up here because what I've witnessed and been moved by on this thread is people really showing up in that exquisite vulnerability. Perhaps with some tentativeness, and not everyone to the same extent at all, but each, by their presence here, is acting courageously. This thread is a crucible, and by your presence here you announce your longings, own your strength, and reveal your shadows.

And here I am still dancing towards the heart of what I want to say.
The feminine voice is essential.
It is not a small problem in this community that the Feminine is dismissed.
I feel it is an essential problem, in that everything integral has the power to do is undermined by the community’s failure to fully honor the Feminine.

All the wisdom that integral has to offer, all the cognitive illumination, the healing and integration, the evolution of thought and the promise of inter-perspective fertility and collaboration, it is all compromised on a fundamental level by the failure of the larger integral community to embrace and live communion as wholeheartedly as it does agency. And the persistence of indifference towards or disinterest in what women have to say and what women are feeling and what men have to say when they are in a more feminine mode (for it is really this ultimately, what the Feminine has to say, regardless of who it speaks through) displayed by many (dare I say most? I’m not sure that that is accurate, but it may be…) of the men of integral, is damning. I think this disinterest can manifest in very subtle ways (as well as the usual obvious ways). It feels to me like a disengagement of attention, a subtle shift into “I don’t really have to pay as much attention to what She is saying” attitude. Or simply ”that does not interest me so I’m not going to contemplate it that deeply,” clearly a necessary act of discrimination which much be employed by all of us many times during our time spent here (on zaadz), but unconsciously and disproportionately employed by some whenever it is the Feminine speaking.

I know that the exceptions to these patterns abound, especially in interactions among those who’ve stuck with this thread so far, and that no matter how I say this defensiveness will be aroused, and fault found with my argument because it is clearly not that simple, not exclusively true, and possibly, not very often true with you. But do not discredit my thoughts because I haven’t bent over backwards here to acknowledge (and bow down in gratitude) to those of you who have grown or are growing beyond this tendency. Or because I am angry. (This anger is Love. Maybe that’s really hard to believe, but can you try?) Or because you can find fault with my argument, or my delivery. I’m sure you can. I’m sure some of the it is legitimate. Regardless, there is something being said here, that the women and some of the men of these forums have been saying and asking to be heard saying for a long, long time. Are you interested? If you aren’t, why not?
If I speak to a quality of scorn or dismissiveness that I have experienced or observed, and you know you are not like that, then don’t take it personally; in that case, it’s not about you. (Unless you feel really defensive, and then it probably is …)

It is deeper even than the relationships between men and women, or the Masculine and the Feminine as they play out in the polarities between people. It is deeper than the fact that our relationships which seek to engage and delight in the glorious polarity so often, so dismally, fail to engage those energies with joy and true, abiding, mutual respect. It plays out in the dynamics between people here often, most commonly between those who identify as primarily Masculine and those who identify as primarily Feminine in their deepest character. But it is deeper than all of this. The longing for realization of healthy Masculine presence and Feminine expression speaks to a deeper imbalance than that evidenced in our human relations. It is reflected in our primary relationships to Self, culture, and nature. And in each of these primary relationships we are a people in distress, out of balance.

The forces that sustain us, forces of nature and forces of consciousness – our way of being and our way of interacting with each other express such disharmony with these deepest forces. Our collective relationship to the Feminine is on egregious display in our profoundly arrogant and misguided indifference to the beauty, subtlety, grace, and inescapability of Nature. Earth contains us, as human organisms, not we it. As Thomas Berry says in Evening Thoughts (the book Jane recently recommended somewhere here and which I am devouring): “Hope for a renewal of the creative forces of the planet lies in a reali zation that the Earth is primary and that humans are derivative. That this dependence of the human on the integral functioning of the planet should be so obvious and yet so consistently denied and so extensively violated is beyond comprehension.”

I believe that this deNile of our own inherent Nature would not be possible were we living in a way, in a consciousness, that honors the Feminine and the Masculine equally. Yet this fear of the Feminine, of Nature, body, emotion, intuition, and life is so deeply and unconsciously conditioned, I can only see us transforming this disease through full and conscious acknowledgement that it exists. Through owning the countless ways it manifests. Through being accountable to how it is manifesting in you, in your habits and relations and biases…

That is why, when the Feminine here in our IIzaadz community sometimes rages or cuts or speaks plain truth or demands attention, She is acting in love. She is standing for truth. She is embodying courage. And She is calling us all forth, asking us to be who we really are, to drop the fear and defensiveness and to step into our true strength.

If you care about Integral, then you must fight to bring the Feminine true respect – the respect embodied in acts of attention and interest. You must learn to truly SEE her.
Otherwise, you are not integrated, and your actions indicate that you don't care enough to be integrated. What’s integral about that?

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Should this be a new thread?

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I want to share something Chogyam Trungpa said that I love, hopefully its relevance is evident:

“If you search for awakened heart, if you put your hand through your rib cage and feel for it, there is nothing there except for tenderness. You feel sore and soft, and if you open your eyes to the rest of the world, you feel tremendous sadness. This kind of sadness doesn’t come from being mistreated. You don’t feel sad because someone has insulted you or because you feel impoverished. Rather, this experience of sadness is unconditioned. It occurs because your heart is completely exposed. There is no skin or tissue covering it; it is pure raw meat. Even if a tiny mosquito lands on it, you feel so touched. Your experience is raw and tender and so personal.

The genuine heart of sadness comes from feeling that your nonexistent heart is full. You would like to spill your heart’s blood, give your heart to others. For the warrior, this experience of sad and tender heart is what gives birth to fearlessness. Conventionally, being fearless means that you are not afraid or that, if someone hits you, you will hit him back. However, we are not talking about that street-fighter level of fearlessness. Real fearlessness is the product of tenderness. It comes from letting the world tickle your heart, your raw and beautiful heart. You are willing to open up, without resistance or shyness, and face the world. You are willing to share your heart with others.”

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Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Balder said: ” I formed an idealized image of the Feminine, and of the male in relationship to the Feminine. An image that was compensatory, not rooted in healthy, authentic versions of either.”

Colin said:  “This is also HUGE! I see this happening all around me. Men often take the pointing out of the agentic trampling of the feminine voice as an attack, or, at minimum, a shaming. And, in some feminist circles, this DOES happen! It seems we're seeing the effects of the pendulum swinging. Return to somewhere in the center is what is needed, and it seems that the process has indeed begun (we're bringing it forward right here!)”

I've heard some people talk about how male behaviour has actually been pathologized, starting in the 70s with the feminist movement, in some cases quite severely. Isn't this so? I think it was partly a positive thing (and I guess I'm speaking about the U.S. here, though it may be true for other places as well): the American male archetype needed to move away a bit from the John Wayne, Rambo type and at the same time room needed to be made for the feminine energy to move in, as the John Wayne/Rambo type tended to crowd them out. But of course the baby was often thrown out with the bathwater, and I can say that I too was left with an idealized version of the feminine, that there was a lot of social pressure to go in that direction, and that certain aspects of male behavior were often discouraged. But as Colin said, it does seem like things are coming back into balance now. Has anybody looked into David Deida's work? Is this what he means by “sick boy” and “sick girl”?

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Hey all –

I noticed this post by Gina, written a couple of days ago, in the Today Is International Women's Day thread (which, interestingly, had been kind of “abandoned”) and I wanted to include her musings here too:

Liz started this thread with:

Does integral theory fully embrace feminism? In what ways has it excluded when it should have included?

Is the Divine Feminine fully included? Or is the very notion of maps and lattices and altitudes just antithetical to really including the feminine aspects and their inherent unruliness? Or is it just that masculine energy has been directing things (as is necessary of course) and women just need to get their hands a bit more dirty?

At the time it was posted I wanted so much to jump in and start a dialog in what I expected to be a very feminine exploration of our path in integral.  Maybe it would have been via personal experience or also in theory form yet with a softer gentler voice.  What happened IMO is the thread became very masculine very quickly.  This is not to say we couldn't have brought it back to feminine but it is a good example of how we didn't.

We are Feminine, We are Integral.  Do we have to label it feminism or can we say Feminine Integral?   It is through ourselves where the Integral Feminine will be defined.  IT IS US.

My personal experience has been that I can be very masculine and pointed when in inquiry mode and feminine and rounded when in midst of the flow of interaction.  Yet my masculine is very much present most of the time here in this forum.  Maybe it is because I ask and inquire as a way of deflecting my opinion (or my perceived lack of Informed opinion) and that is my shadow to overcome or maybe it is because this forum is Masculine and in order to be here I adapt.

The question for me is How am I going to dirty my hands and still keep my feminine flowing?

Starting to dig,

Gina 

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Ok Mary, I'll bite. 

I have been thinking about this for  a long time… maybe since I read of all things, Boomeritis.  It brought me to a real understanding of my separation of my feminine through feminism itself.  I have been asked many times to try and rename my interest in and desire to discuss spiritual feminism.  The word feminism often evokes an idea of separatism and anger maybe because of the founding energy of the 'fight' for equal rights.

These days I am consistently focused on wanting to be FOR my feminine nature and not in opposition of my or any masculine nature.  I can honestly say it has been a rough road.  The question that continually rises is:  How can I be fully feminine?  My separation of m/f has brought me to (much of the time) a much stronger masculine.

In my approach (so far) to the Integral Feminine has been to continually feed the part of me that Feels my integral views and practice.  I sometimes get caught up in wanting to say something 'right' (by using correct theory terms) and then get stuck in my mind and forget to feel my way through it.

Maybe this would be better placed in the Nile thread, but I am not currently feeling captured in the shadow as much as I am desiring a digging in the potential of what is emerging in the real feeling of my Integral Feminine. 

Thanks for calling me out….. and I hope to hear from others too about their process and ILP as it is defined by their feminine.

Gina

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Hey Gina,

Gina: Boomeritis…brought me to a real understanding of my separation of my feminine through feminism itself.  I have been asked many times to try and rename my interest in and desire to discuss spiritual feminism.  The word feminism often evokes an idea of separatism and anger maybe because of the founding energy of the 'fight' for equal rights.

Yep, that is my understanding as well. We don't have to ‘fight' even though the Suffragettes are our heavyweight heroes.


These days I am consistently focused on wanting to be FOR my feminine nature and not in opposition of my or any masculine nature.  I can honestly say it has been a rough road.  The question that continually rises is:  How can I be fully feminine?  My separation of m/f has brought me to (much of the time) a much stronger masculine.

Right, you hold onto the pendulum at one end…blink…and find yourself at the other end wondering how the hell that happened.


In my approach (so far) to the Integral Feminine has been to continually feed the part of me that Feels my integral views and practice.  I sometimes get caught up in wanting to say something 'right' (by using correct theory terms) and then get stuck in my mind and forget to feel my way through it.

This still seems to be being caught at the wrong end of the pendulum. So, the vantage point must be differentiated from the polar movement by the still point at the top of the pendulum BEFORE any integration can be achieved. Only then can you look down and ‘objectify' the movement which was previously only felt subjectively.


I hope to hear from others too about their process and ILP as it is defined by their feminine.

My ego says my sister, mother, grandmother, aunts, etc are in me.

Trans-ego I see that those qualities associated with the feminine have always been there latent in mind. The feminine role models were reflections of the nature the mind always possessed. The role models helped me to re-cognize that nature.

Years ago a friend of mine was into the Native American Church. I went to a peyote healing ceremony offered by a Sioux medicine man. The afternoon before the ceremony, we had to purify our bodies in a sweat lodge. I unknowingly sat in a place of honor directly across from the medicine man with the red glowing rocks between us. My friend had warned me that the sweat would be intense. As they closed the canvas over the entrance to the lodge, I thought the heat was not too intense. Then the chanting started and the medicine man threw water onto the rocks. The steam went directly at me first and I lasted for only 2 songs. I had to leave before the start of the third chant. As I sat outside during the third chant, I could not believe that only 2 people had left the heat and smoke of the lodge. Most were in fact still SINGING inside! I decided to go back in for the final song. As I went in, ALL the men (except the medicine man) had their heads down by the edges of the canvas trying to get some fresh air. And ALL the women were sitting straight up and proud. The tent flap closed and the singing began again. It was the women that could tolerate the heat and were joyously engaged in the chant. Some things came to my mind afterwards, you know the jokes about the weaker/stronger sex, etc. Years later when I started a path of meditation, I was surprised to find out how physically hard day long and multi day retreats were. I tried everything i.e. begging, pleading, overpowering, etc. and nothing would assuage the pain in the legs. It was only when I remembered the women of the sweat lodge  (the way they tolerated, embraced and joyously surrendered to the heat) that a way opened up for me in my sitting. With this approach concentration formed effortlessly, the pain disappeared and my sitting practice progressed rapidly.

If we are attempting wholeness, my understanding tells me it is more prudent to divorce the dualistic qualities of mind from the apparent first tier ‘sources' we first encountered them in. KW has used agency and communion. Buddhism uses wisdom and compassion. The spiritual path is flown on these two wings. The problem I see in typecasting these two innate qualities of mind which we all possess regardless of gender, is if you are not that type you may devalue the other and not admit the other quality in yourself in the first place. And you will never achieve wholeness if you do.

Where is this all heading? Like Icarus, we must know the limits of even wisdom and compassion. The problem he faced was a lack of momentum and not letting go of his set of wings at the appropriate time in his attempt at self immolation.

peacelove,

e

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

e,

That was a very interesting deconstruction of my post.  Thank you for sharing your story about the sweat lodge and the connection to the women who were present.  I felt a kinship in those words as I have sat in a sweat or two and can attest to the demands of the heat.

e:  If we are attempting wholeness, my understanding tells me it is more prudent to divorce the dualistic qualities of mind from the apparent first tier ‘sources' we first encountered them in. KW has used agency and communion. Buddhism uses wisdom and compassion. The spiritual path is flown on these two wings. The problem I see in typecasting these two innate qualities of mind which we all possess regardless of gender, is if you are not that type you may devalue the other and not admit the other quality in yourself in the first place. And you will never achieve wholeness if you do.

Where is this all heading? Like Icarus, we must know the limits of even wisdom and compassion. The problem he faced was a lack of momentum and not letting go of his set of wings at the appropriate time in his attempt at self immolation.

Sweat lodges, Icarus, immolation…. is there a specific reason for the fire?

In flames,

Gina

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Gina: That was a very interesting deconstruction of my post. 


Construction/deconstruction cannot be separated. That which is constructed inevitably falls apart. You are the second person to say I am doing this. I am really just responding inline with your text.


———

e:  If we are attempting wholeness, my understanding tells me it is more prudent to divorce the dualistic qualities of mind from the apparent first tier ‘sources' we first encountered them in. KW has used agency and communion. Buddhism uses wisdom and compassion. The spiritual path is flown on these two wings. The problem I see in typecasting these two innate qualities of mind which we all possess regardless of gender, is if you are not that type you may devalue the other and not admit the other quality in yourself in the first place. And you will never achieve wholeness if you do.

e:Where is this all heading? Like Icarus, we must know the limits of even wisdom and compassion. The problem he faced was a lack of momentum and not letting go of his set of wings at the appropriate time in his attempt at self immolation.


G: Sweat lodges, Icarus, immolation…. is there a specific reason for the fire?


Fire renders all dualistic notions of ontology ridiculously superfluous. It even consumes itself!


G: In flames,

:-)
Here let me help, hold this gallon of gas, and let me…blow…blow…blow.


peace & love,

e

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

e. You are the second person to say I am doing this
Maybe it is because the wording and approach is received by the original poster as critical and observational.  And by critical I mean mental.

e. But that is the thing Gina, you cannot transcend/include that which remains subjective. You must differentiate first, transcend and then include. So, you must first disidentify with your partialness before there can ever be a chance at wholeness. For most this is rather scary as it leads one open and vulnerable because they do not know what they are transcending into. But that is part of the fun of it, yes?

My feelings toward your posts are a bit dualistic.  My highest self understands what you are saying and identifies with aspects as possible truths for me.  My not so highest self is living here in this body and sees your posts as preachy, distant and impersonal.  Disidentifying for me, means losing my humanity.  I choose a lesser self over a disconnected distant highest self.

Would that then make me wood?

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

e. You are the second person to say I am doing this

G:Maybe it is because the wording and approach is received by the original poster as critical and observational. And by critical I mean mental.

Pale attempts at brevity.



e. But that is the thing Gina, you cannot transcend/include that which remains subjective. You must differentiate first, transcend and then include. So, you must first disidentify with your partialness before there can ever be a chance at wholeness. For most this is rather scary as it leads one open and vulnerable because they do not know what they are transcending into. But that is part of the fun of it, yes?

G: My feelings toward your posts are a bit dualistic. My highest self understands what you are saying and identifies with aspects as possible truths for me. My not so highest self is living here in this body and sees your posts as preachy, distant and impersonal.

The way seems clear then. Relate to the highest in the other and allow/tolerate/forgive any real or imagined idiosyncratic shortcomings. Namaste.



G: Disidentifying for me, means losing my humanity. I choose a lesser self over a disconnected distant highest self.

The transcendent self is also immanent but quiet so not readily noticed.

Besides…“You possess that which cannot be lost in a ship wreck.”

What good is waiting till everything is forcefully taken away from you (e.g. humanity) to realize that?



G: Would that then make me wood?

Beautifully honest.



Take good care Gina!

Love

eric

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

While driving to work I starting to think about how I show up in the world in both healthy and unhealthy ways and how women around me show me different levels of development.

Below is pulled from the Introduction to Integral Theory and Practice and using the healthy and unhealthy feminine as stated below, I would love to start a dialog on what developmental lines look like in both forms.  OR…. maybe in color spectrum.  Healthy / Unhealthy female in Amber, Orange…… is that even a distinction that can be created?  Has that distinction been created?
 

If the healthy feminine principle tends toward flowing, relationship, care, and compassion, the unhealthy feminine flounders in each of those. Instead of being in relationship, she becomes lost in relationship. Instead of a healthy self in communion with others, she loses her self altogether and is dominated by the relationships she is in. Not a connection, but a fusion; not a flow state, but a panic state; not a communion, but a melt-down. The unhealthy feminine principle does not find fullness in connection, but chaos in fusion. Using IOS, you will find ways to identify both the healthy and unhealthy masculine and feminine dimensions operating in yourself and in others. 
Pointing to an unhealthy type is not a way to judge people but a way to understand and communicate with them more clearly and effectively.

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Hi Gina

I'm certainly interested in learning more about my feminine, healthy and unhealthy …. and any light that can be shone on different expressions of the feminine type at different levels would be helpful too.

In the piece from Ken that you quote, the unhealthy feminine principle is typified as ” ...lost in relationship … (losing) her self altogether  and … dominated by the relationships she is in …  fusion … panic state … melt-down … (the) unhealthy feminine principle (finds)  chaos in fusion.” I can imagine such a hypothetical she as typified above as being ” .. very agressive, reactive and absolute ..” at the same time – yet, it still sounds to me like your colleague's “unhealthy outbursts” are coming from her masculine rather than her feminine.

I might be looking at it too simplistically, so it would be great if you could enlarge a little on what your assessment of your colleague's unhealthy feminine principle is based on.

And I'd love to hear more about how you ” .. connected with several lines in both healthy and unhealthy while trying to figure out what to DO” about your car!

All best,

Lol

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Lol,

It's interesting you mentioned my coworker as coming from her masculine, I thought that too at first but then after sitting with it a bit, I would say she first comes from not being heard, then goes into chaos, which then may present more masculine in its end result.  I questioned that too because then is all anger masculine?  Kali was mentioned in previous postings and although she gets a bad rap, she might be the way to see how a feminine energy can be agressive and not fall into 'typical'  passive agressive anger.

As far as my 'incident' goes…. hmmm….. Well cars and I have a very interesting relationship.  For me they act as a living metaphor for my life.  When my car is dirty, I am not 'keeping house', when I am driving agressively, I know it is time to check in and find out what is going on inside of me.  So, when I went out to my car after spending the day lazying in front of a friend's TV (because I don't own one) and it wouldn't start I sat in amazement to it's teachings.  First I attempted to figure out what was wrong then I tried to jump start via my stick shift which led to me sticking out in the middle of the street needing REAL help, which I received and ended up pushing the car back into the driveway.  After my helpers left, I was left alone with my thoughts and feelings.  Abandoned, alone, stranded.  I wanted to cry, I felt frustrated and worried about the hows and the details of what life would be like in the next 24 -48 hours without the car, then I sat some more….. eventually getting out of the car, going back into my friend's house and deciding that I wouldn't be taking any action until the next day.
For me, the unhealthy feminine in me would have spun way out into the helplessness creating chaos and emotional reactivity.  Instead, I sat let it start to spin, and then chose to allow for something new to present itself tomorrow.
Lines?  emotional, cognitive, inter personal (helpers), needs?, even self identity and spiritual developmental lines were accessed

whew…… I am tired even retyping the experience.  I can't say for all women (because I have friends who are car savvy) but car brakedowns can really spin me into a shadow of victim and helplessness really quickly.

Thanks for the quesitons Lol, 

Gina

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Thanks Gina, that was helpful. In thinking of your co-worker I had limited imagination, (only) relating to her as having (and expressing) a strong animus; for all I know she may well have a strong animus, but relating to her as not feeling heard, maybe not feeling respected/ appreciated – this for me is cause enough for angry feelings to arise, particularly if self-esteem in some area is low. Yet reflecting again on her as being “aggressive, reactive, and absolute” does seem to support the idea that red and amber are more “masculine”.

Dharma teachings talk of anger coming from “unhappy mind”. It's clear now thinking about it that how we express our anger must also largely be down to our conditioning. I don't witness many men able or wanting to keep in touch with their hearts when speaking out in an energised way about a wrong-doing, whether it's been done to them or whether they've witnessed it and so felt outraged — but I have witnessed women, with tears in their eyes, expressing anger and outrage at something, yet clearly keeping in touch with their hearts, and their dignity. I feel humbled when I see this, and relate to it as a precious teaching.

Lol

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

I am having a hard time keeping up with so much interesting discussion. Gina, I love what you are writing about here…..and will look forward to having some time to post more later. I agree that as women, we really need to look carefully and deeply at the ways in which we become sloppy and ‘hysterical’, and how we get a payoff on some level for this behaviour. I love it when men stop and help me to fix a tire, or whatever, but being competent, and stopping to help others is easy enough to do too. Being competent and capable at mechanical aspects is not unfeminine, it is really just part of being a functional human…..there is no need to think that being breathless and helpless serves anybody, indeed, it does us ALL a great disservice…..I have read the John Gray literature, or at least some of it. And it triggers me like nothing else….I actually ripped up one book (Men are from Mars…Women are From VEnus.) and burned it in the fire place as I read it, I was so pissed off. It promotes some belief in a steriotypically incompetent female, in which ‘the man’ must continually rescue her from her own predicatment…and John Gray seems to pretend that this rescuing/being saved behaviour is ‘sexy’…well, in my opinion, this is utter bullshit. Men and women stuck in this ridiculous patterning are pathetic…and it is no wonder that these relationships are an utter and dysfunctional yawn after a while.
What we must do, regardless of gender, is show up with all of our shining glory, competence, fearless, talents and be authentic and real in our desire to love and share and care for each other….
I have more thoughts…but I must get off the computer and live the outside life for a bit.
thank you
Jane

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Jane! I knew you'd be here girl! Its an endlessly adventurous discussion this one…

It brings in our earlier discussion about the “anima” and “animus” - the inner images that men and women have of the other sex. And i have some new thoughts on that.

What I'm hearing you object to in the marilyn monroe style breathlessness and helplessness is the falsity of it, and the fixity of it. Is that right?(I can just hear some guru telling this woman to breath into her belly and for ever end the “alluring” breathlessness). I would agree that these “shells” are a bit see through and the bullshit of it can be a bit sickmaking…I suppose the ever competent, feelingless man is the equivalent on the male side.

Anyway I'm shooting the breeze here, cos its early early in themorning. I hope you had a grrreat weekend.

Love Gitanjali

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

I want to reproduce Pelle's tango post here, if thats OK Pelle? because I feel its relevant to this thread. Here it is:

****

Enough of that. Let's return to the subject of feminine and masculine faces. Like I said earlier tango is an important metaphor to me in this arena, since body language shows us so powerfully what's really going on, under the surface.

In tango the woman follows, this is what is taught. At the same time following is a complete disaster. Now that seems to be very paradoxical and even confused, very unlike me to write something like that :) But this is what happens when we enter feminine territory. Paradox becomes the norm, at least on the surface.

Women cannot only follow in tango, they need to dance! Even if you don't get a single initiative from the man during the whole song you still dance. Yes you have to stay on one and the same foot throughout, but interiorly and maybe even with you deeper musculature you dance. Following the man doesn't make any sense if you're not already dancing.

You cannot take over the lead when you're “following”, that will make the dance as dynamic and interesting as two MGM lovers, if you know what I'm saying. However you can suggest a movement. Subtly moving your body in one direction (without leaving the foot you are standing on) suggests that you want to take a step in the other direction. Stand up and try it yourself, this is how the human body moves. A large movement to one direction is preceded by a tiny movement in the opposite direction. In other words women can affect the dance in lots of ways (I have described but one of these), without having to become the predominantly agentic part. But it only works if the man both knows how to dance and wants the woman to co-create the dance. So while co-creation between a man and a woman can involve switching agentic poles, I am of the strong opinion that this is not necessary to have a flowing feminine-masculine dance that co-creates in the moment.
****

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

And I want to say this.

Pelle it's a great metaphor you present here about the masculine and feminine. And its got me thinking' there are real paradoxes in the principle that the “masculine leads, the feminine follows”. Actually, I'm sure that Deida looked sly when he used these terms in his workshop J My own sense of things at the moment…

When a man has integrated his feminine and masculine parts to a good degree so that he is in touch with his values and feelings and can act upon them, then he becomes the ideal dance partner. For only then does he know the ‘how' and feel deeply the ‘want' in this line of yours Pelle

If he wants to, he can in the dance, feel her subtly, and do what it takes for her to flower. She cannot shine unless she feels him feeling her heart and doing his best for it. So he adjusts his lead in order to allow the greatest radiance to shine forth from her. In this sense, he takes his lead from the pulsating feminine energy or as some writers put it he serves the Feminine.

But as you make clear, the key point is “only if he wants to”. For the real feminine that he is serving is the inner one, not the outer one. The inner feminine who is the lens to his Heart, and to what he deeply wants.

If he were to make the mistake of projecting the goddess, instead of owning it, onto the outer partner, then the universe will let him know its not sustainable. To begin with, if he should follow her desire at the expense of his deeper knowing, while his partner may look as pleased as a cat with cream, she will wilt deep inside. That's the nature of the Feminine - she loves presence more than cream.

But here's where I feel it gets even more interesting. In serving his heart while feeling her heart he serves the One Heart. Soo….in a moment of deep play between the feminine and masculine, where there is profound trust, he can allow the outer woman to carry the inner feminine for him, and she can allow him to carry the masculine for her.

And in this the man as the Masculine “leads” but takes his lead from the woman as the Feminine. But as they are in communion,  it doesn't really make sense to even say that.

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Beautifully put, Gitanjali.

“For the real feminine that he is serving is the inner one, not the
outer one. The inner feminine who is the lens to his Heart, and to what
he deeply wants.”

Mmmmmm

And …. in the dance where we're not cheek to cheek, I can feel for her heart sometimes as if I were feeling for something blindfolded …. uncertainly, tentatively …. and maybe all I'm feeling at this point, or all that's being reflected back, is my uncertainty.

But I will still be keeping as present as I can. It's heartening to hear you saying:  ”That's the nature of the Feminine - she loves presence more than cream.”


“But how is that different from mutual projections?….now there's a question…:)”

Maybe the harmomious resonance draws it from the other rarher than it being projected by the other?

Lol

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Gitanjali: But here's where I feel it gets even more interesting. In serving his heart while feeling her heart he serves the One Heart. Soo….in a moment of deep play between the feminine and masculine, where there is profound trust, he can allow the outer woman to carry the inner feminine for him, and she can allow him to carry the masculine for her.

This is where I begin to ask, are we in trust within ourselves?  If we the feminine do not fully trust ourselves, our hearts, our beings, how is it we could possibly surrender and allow ourselves to trust fully in the masculine.  The profound trust you mention is only allowed to the degree the feminine is able to surrender.

If we want to dance and have the freedom to express ourselves fully, isn't it our responsiblity to know our beings, trust ourselves and dance like we Know Shiva is present?

Thank you for playing!  this is yummy

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Gitanjali wrote (quoting me in bold):

In other words women can affect the dance in lots of ways (I have described but one of these), without having to become the predominantly agentic part. But it only works if the man both knows how to dance and wants the woman to co-create the dance.

If he wants to, he can in the dance, feel her subtly, and do what it takes for her to flower. She cannot shine unless she feels him feeling her heart and doing his best for it. So he adjusts his lead in order to allow the greatest radiance to shine forth from her. In this sense, he takes his lead from the pulsating feminine energy or as some writers put it he serves the Feminine.

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Lol,

There are two parts to your response that jumped out at me

Yet reflecting again on her as being “aggressive, reactive, and absolute” does seem to support the idea that red and amber are more “masculine”.

It feels that way to me.  It also seems (and this me speaking without facts) that Red/Amber development is the foundation of the lost feminine as a whole.  It was in Purple.. mystical, unknown that we (fem) had more presence and to me our “voice” did not present again until green.  Now we are in what feels like a struggle against the masses to be heard, I think this where the anger and the frustration comes into play.  Maybe we haveve seemingly trancended our Amber/Orange masculinity yet I still believe our biggest challenge in the feminine is to actively go looking for our shadow male as it resides not just within our personal experience but also in our societal constructs on the whole

I don't witness many men able or wanting to keep in touch with their hearts when speaking out

Sadly, I don't witness this much either both in Anger and in Being.  I know I am over generalizing and can get into trouble here, but this goes back to trust for me.  If the masculine were to trust his emotions more would it then be safer to trust himself in being with the feminine?  This seems basic but for me, this is where the disconnect for relationship generally begins.

Gina

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Dear Ones,

I just caught up with this thread and am blown away by the sincerity of investigation and the tenderness of respect.  I hope to find a way soon to contribute.

Yer pal,
Michael

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Oh this is great! there's some much here I want to receive and respond to…and I have to get ready for work….(sigh)
Michael! its great to hear you again…come in to the hearth and warm yourself by the fire….

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Lol

It struck me when you said it was heartening to hear that the Feminine prefers presence to cream. It opened a door for me into the pain or struggle men feel about this….I recall Michael saying something similar to me once (if I may mention here, Michael).

But it doesn't leave men with an easy task :) Presence is harder to embody than making money…

I would love to hear more about what you mean about the difference between mutual projections and mutual “drawing” from each other…

Gitanjali

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Lol and everyone

What is masculine presence to you? What do you do to allow it in?

Love
Gitanjali

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Gina

Yes! trust of what is within. Trust of the Heart which unites the inner feminine and masculine – I feel women are needing to learn to trust their inner agency as well as their femininity. Just as the masculine learns to access both his Masculine and his inner Feminine, she learns to access both her inner Feminine and Masculine- the shiva within. Then as within, so without.

Pelle,

The “how to” is indeed for both. It is not an easy task but the woman would have to know how to access her core energy.

Of course, she could fake it. And that fakeness would resonate with a man faking presence and so there would be something to dance with. Shells dancing with shells.

This is beautifullly put.

If both the man and the woman have this kind of basic connection to their core energies, then there is no limit to how they can inspire each other and get the energy flowing. The man focuses on agentically initiating, but paradoxically he instantly finds himself in communion with the vibrating feminine and thereby accesses his inner feminine. With the help of the woman the man can dive deep into communion and beingness, however, he still retains a “lifeline” to his agentic side at all times - such is his responsibility. The woman on the other hand focuses on connecting using her communal feminine energy, but as soon as the dance starts she paradoxically finds herself needing to present herself clearly (agentically) for the dance to function. Just as she helps the man find deep communion and beingness, he challenges her to find her agency and inner masculine - and she does.

Can you say more about: what is it for women that is equivalent to the man going into communion and beingness in a woman's presence…this “needing to present herself more clearly”? What do you feel happens\ing  to a woman when you are present and dancing with her?

Gitanjali

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Gitanjali,

If the following is an open question to both men and women

What is masculine presence to you? What do you do to allow it in?

Willingness to participate and serve with dignity might be one way to characterize an ideal state of masculine presence.  It may be brought forth by listening, considering, requesting clarification if necessary, and not assuming there is always an appeal for a “fix.”  I have the utmost trouble with that fixer part - my personal frontier.   I am beginning to wonder if it has to do with a sense of my shadowed fear and powerlessness in the face of what has been previously unexpressed by women (or so it seemed to me.)  I don't mean to say that women have not been raising the issue, its just that the language never addressed my (men's) blindness in a way that I HAD to consider it with such urgency.

yer pal,
Michael

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Hi Gitanjali

Does your name mean “Gita of the Angels” : )

I don't know if you're 11 or 12 hours ahead of me, but here it's turned 1 a.m. and I've got to get to bed!

Will give attention to your questions 2moro.

Lol

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

I don't know why Gitanjali chose her name or if there are other meanings, but Gitanjali is a famous poem by Rabindranath Tagore; I believe the title means, “song offering.”  (Holding the hands together when you say “namaste” is called anjali mudra and may refer to shiva-shakti polarity).

Quickly tossing professor pipe back in my drawer, I retire,

Balder

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Just wanted to pop in and say that I'm in absolute de-light, awe, and gratitude to be able to participate in such exquisite unfoldings of authenticities…. (thru lurking). 

It's nearly 1am and I have two girls to ready for school in the wee hours…. and I simply *wanted* to say that I am savoring each morsel of this delicious thread. 

Honoring the voices,
~ Stacy

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Gitanjali:
Can you say more about: what is it for women that is equivalent to the man going into communion and beingness in a woman's presence…this “needing to present herself more clearly”? What do you feel happens\ing  to a woman when you are present and dancing with her?

Yes, “needing to present herself more clearly”. If a woman only has her vibrating feminine energy but lacks all agency, then it's like dancing with a blob of jelly (pardon the metaphor). When the man starts initiating/leading, whether it's dancing or in everyday life, a woman who is only looking for communion becomes weak and in a way follows/walks three feet behind him (like women sometimes do in the Middle East, this is typical of amber male-female interactions). However, in reality the man starting to initiate/lead means that the woman is challenged to wake up to her agency, unless she wants to lose her autonomy. Waking up to her autonomy/agency is like saying to the man:

“I'm here now, I'm present, I'm my own person. I don't have to let you be the predominant initiator, but I will choose to let it be so, since I have deep trust in you and know that you will initiate in a way that's good for both of us. I also know that you will leave space for me to initiate should I want to, and listen to me if I feel you are going astray. As long as I trust you I will embrace you and do everything I can to give you the gift of deep communion.”

To me this pattern explains why trust seems to be the master switch for a woman in a relationship.

This is how I see things but I'm open to listening to what the women on this thread think.



Pelle

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Hi Lol! Gita of the Angels sounds like a great golden Klimt cloak to put on when I want! Just don't ask me the rest of my name…for that brings in the other side ;)

Professor Balder, you are the first person I have met who told me before I told them about the anjali mudra. In fact you know more than me about my name. I just show people the mudra. I had no idea it could be the shiva-shakti polarity. That —explains—-everything!!!! I shall beat my parents soundly for naming me and thus choosing destiny…

Pelle this is revelation for me. Both the man and woman hold the tension within between two poles - communion and agency. A man's presence challenges her to, and also “transmits”, a deeper ability to access agency , just as in being with her he “instantly finds himself in communion with the vibrating feminine and thereby accesses his inner feminine. With the help of the woman the man can dive deep into communion and beingness”.

And the mirroring continues…it is her “responsibility” to hold on to her feminine heart even as she is agentic, just as it is his, to have a lifeline to his agency.

Michael, the tension between intimacy and autonomy, or communion and agency is right here in your sentence…

“Willingness to participate and serve with dignity might be one way to characterize an ideal state of masculine presence.”

In my view, dignity is inextricably linked to boundary making, separation and agency (bring to mind someone you know of with great dignity and poise), and participation to communion.

Here's another thought. The desire to “fix” when it is not the need of the situation may be a desire to collapse the tension that must be held within yourself between agency and communion.

Perhaps holding the tension is a principle that emerges not only in each dancer but in the space between them. I read a really interesting piece on Eros by JR Haule (which i cant find the link for anymore) And which echos this principle. This time its talking about the we-space” itself. Sustained eros between two requires us to accept both the chalice of love (communion) and the sword of separation (autonomy).

That question I was asking: what is the difference between mutual projections (unsustainable) and communion/exchange of energies? My feeling is that part of the answer is in this:

“I don't have to let you be the predominant initiator, but I will choose to let it be so,”

In the latter we have choice. We can only make a conscious choice to access or not access a part of us when we have owned that part of us, when we have taken it out of the Shadow. Projections are unconscious, it is shadow material we project. This means we need well-developed egos - ones that are strong and large enough to embrace much previous shadow, to let them go in love.

Stacy what is it about this subject and these people willing to open up… I love it too…an its good to have you here.

Time for cooking a steak, I've just got a very sharp new cook's knife…

XX Gita of the Angels

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Great post Gitanjali.

For now just a brief comment:

Sustained eros between two requires us to accept both the chalice of love (communion) and the sword of separation (autonomy).


So true. No matter how connected you are to your core energy you need time alone to repolarize and recharge.


Pelle

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Gita of the Angels   

( …. or maybe I should check first what you're wearing today? :))

I'm lovin' your new golden cloak    ….  takes me to Angels' Song    ….  which takes me to Angelus

Anreelygelus now!!

Gitanjali: ”I would love to hear more about what you mean about the difference between mutual projections and mutual “drawing” from each other…”

You'd already given the context: ”….in a moment of deep play between the feminine and masculine, where there is profound trust, he can allow the outer woman to carry the inner feminine for him, and she can allow him to carry the masculine for her.”

And I think Pelle's way ahead of me, and has articulated beautifully part of what was taking shape for me, in what you've already quoted (of him):

” … he instantly finds himself in communion with the vibrating feminine [oooooh … ed.] and thereby accesses his inner feminine.  With the help of the woman the man can dive deep into communion and beingness.”

What I had forming was the image …. in the harmonious resonance of the relational field …. of the woman's masculine being em-powered, lit up like the Aurora Australis, by the man's masculine-charged field …. and likewise the man's feminine being em-powered by the woman's feminine-charged field …. and in this sense these inner m/f being 'drawn out' from where they're residing deeper within.

And you've alluded to another part with ”And the mirroring continues…”

I'd been musing about the way oppositions can be illustrated in astrology. One common (and limited!) way to look at planets in opposition is that they are adversarial. And … if you have two planets facing each other across the circle, there is an axis between them, linking them …. this axis is also a continuum …. where does one end and the other begin? Again if we think of two planets, say Mercury and Pluto, across from each other, each symbolising an aspect of the psyche …. Mercury can see hermeself reflected in the mirror of Pluto …. with this mirror imbued as it is with Pluto's qualities, so in this way imbuing Mercury with Pluto's qualities …. and vice versa.

As for your other question: ”What is masculine presence to you? What do you do to allow it in?”

For most of my life much of my agentic masculine has been in the shadow. I feel it's only relatively recently begun to emerge, to be re-claimed and owned. Many different things have contributed to this, but one stands out for me …. the ongoing cultivation of embodied presence. As this has deepened, as self and identity have become more integrated into it, it has lost its earlier fragility and is so much less likely to be weakened, dispersed or even (temporarily) lost in the intensity of a relational field, whether that be with someone I have the hots for, or the patrolman with his blue flashing light.

And of course there are incentives …. as you said:  “… the Feminine … loves presence more than cream.“  …. well, alright ….  8)

I feel I've been discovering and owning more of both my Masculine and my Feminine in this deepening of embodied presence …. so this is what I've been *doing* to allow both in (more).

…. but you're also asking ”What is masculine presence to you?”

Now that it's coming out of the shadow more I can better relate to masculine agency.

I would second the qualities you've already mentioned: autonomy, boundary making, separation.

I would echo Michael's dignity …. and add forebearance, courage.

But foremost, possibly, is Spirit. Two verses from a Santo Daime 'hymn' express this for me:

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Didn't mean to be rude by not signing off …. something happened at the end that wouldn't let me add anything further.

“He of the town of laurels” xx

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Beautiful stuff Lol. Thanks for painting a picture of the masculine.


BTW, I didn't know that there was an Aurora Australis, I thought we had something special in this part of the world 

But since I'm feeling awefully grand today, here it is, the Aurora Australis:








Pelle

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

That's a far out picture, Pelle! I guess that must make woolfie a dingo.

Lol

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Jaysus people!

Maybe we ought to get back to fightin' a little.  My mush factor is through the roof. 

My impression is that of a Phoenix arising In the field of seaching disclosure.  The effect on me is disarming.  Gitanjali's sword of separation hangs limp in my hand. 

I am concerned about dignity and communion - how effortlessly I might misuse these words.  My dignity, if a shadow's mask, is but a defensive lie.  If false, it is vulnerable to insult, and must be protected with reaction - no time for response.  If true, it is not just a sense of self-regard but, more, a sense of regard for other that springs from my own well of self-trust. 

Communion is at the very edge of the event horizon of absorption and loss of autonymy.  To foster and en-joy communion, is to dance, like Pelle says on the edge of initiation, surrender, acceptance and allowance.  In this dance we can choose, in communion, to exchange these actions between each other's animus and anima and thereby transcend gender.

Initiation may be a masculine expression, but that does not limit initiation to the province of men just as receptivity, nurturance, and fecundity are not the exclusive property of women.  It seems that this dialogue is benefitting from women speaking from their animus as well as men from their anima.  Most amazing dear ones, most amazing.

yer pal,
Michael

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Wow, this is great…. I will stick with my current favorite topic ;P

Pele: As long as I trust you I will embrace you and do everything I can to give you the gift of deep communion.”

To me this pattern explains why trust seems to be the master switch for a woman in a relationship.

This is how I see things but I'm open to listening to what the women on this thread think.

The longing for the deepest levels of trust is so strong for me it brings tears to my eyes.  I know my trust is defined by own capcity to … trust.. ha.   It is the longing that pulls me to deeper and deeper knowings of Feeling and of Being and yet each moment is faced with the fear of once again finding there is not a space being held for me where I can dance.  I fear there is not a masculine balancing my feminine.  AND because I have not seen it, experienced it,  my rational mind interjects with “well then, it is not possible”

Diving into my capcity to trust is my key to feeling the delicate balance of the wholeness with in me.  Having my feminine freed from my own masculine constructs is where my perfection lies.

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Lol:  For most of my life much of my agentic masculine has been in the shadow. I feel it's only relatively recently begun to emerge, to be re-claimed and owned. Many different things have contributed to this, but one stands out for me …. the ongoing cultivation of embodied presence. As this has deepened, as self and identity have become more integrated into it, it has lost its earlier fragility and is so much less likely to be weakened, dispersed or even (temporarily) lost in the intensity of a relational field, whether that be with someone I have the hots for, or the patrolman with his blue flashing light.

I feel this way about my feminine at times.  Feeling the balance of m/f has come from directly claiming my feminine and exploring my shadow feminine while seeing my masculine more clearly for its role within me.  I once said to a friend that I believed I had been acting in masculine to hide from my feminine shadow… uncovering that was a clarifying day which created an opening to balance and a pathway to chose healthy aspects of both.

Thank you all for this amazing exchange…… it is opening all new pathways to being.

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

From Gitanjali's post above:

That question I was asking: what is the difference between mutual projections (unsustainable) and communion/exchange of energies? My feeling is that part of the answer is in this:

“I don't have to let you be the predominant initiator, but I will choose to let it be so,”

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Pelle,

These lines completely caught my attention:

This last step (ie transcending green) is a very hard one to take. We can feel inside like we're actually sliding downwards instead of growing, and some people will certainly think that that's what we're doing. It is also scary to open oneself up to the flow of power that comes from connecting to our own polarity.

What comes to mind for me is that it is not a “downward” slide per se, but an inward “drop” to the floor of ourselves where such things as devotion to the masculine and its agenic issues comes face-to-face with our own femininty.  Even the beginnings of such a consideration touch the fear associated with loss of life-long attachment to pure (I mean false-pure here) masculine identity.  Allowing the “slide” as you put it, to proceed, more fear will be encountered as we progress inward.  I think that we must choose to witness/experience that fear as magnificent before it has a chance to adrenalize us into a resistant, reactionary state.

This, I think, is reflective of what Gitanjali said,

“I don't have to let you be the predominant initiator, but I will choose to let it be so,”

in that we do not have to be the initiator of this inward look, but let the offered consideration serve as the initiator, and observe from our anima while on the way in.  This may provide some perspective on the devotion-to-“pure”-masculine identity thing AND give us the courage to face a masculine fear with a feminine face.

Generally, I feel that I have subverted what may be, on balance, more feminine energies within myself to this parade of ballsy masculinity.  That cannot be a “good” thing in the long run.  I am coming to learn that I feel “better” when I am softer and less “certain” in a male agenic sense.  Kindness arises.

yer pal,

Michael

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Can I just say what a wonderful chain of posts to read as I sip my morning tea (Chinese red dates).

It feels good to feel the living and pulsating consciousnesses behind the posts. To know you are all..somewhere…right now…and you all have such crazeee thoughts and feelings.

Lol of the laurels I loved reading your post. And was amazed by the astrological metaphor. In my own chart I have Aquarius and Leo in direct opposition, and you've just given me a new way of looking at it…Growl says the Aquarian, and the Lion lies down with the lambs.

And talk about synchronicities – embodiment…I was feeling exactly the same about my femininity yesterday - embodiment is allowing it to emerge organically and every day has become an adventure. Vague undefined states that I have been yearning for now come up as part of that embodiment. I find I breathe more habitually from my belly, and I feel that has been a two way thing. As I accepted my core energy, it became easier to breathe from there, and as I breathe from there, I feel the energy emerging…

You've also brought up Shiva (spirit) and Shakti (soul) and I want to speak to that but I feel later…

Gitanjali

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Just to add Michael wot I am sure you would know…if you have subverted your feminine it will come up as addictions. She wont be denied.

I was just reading about the addiction to perfectionism this morning…thats Medusa, the shadow feminine, who turned verything into perfect dead stone…

i need a scary emoticon here!
Gitanjali

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Pelle of the Northern Lattitudes…

Are you SURE thats the Australis?

As self appointed representative of Oz on this thread, I need to speak up on such important symbolic issues.

My main argument is.

If it is the A.A.

why isnt the “dingo” upside down?

Ambassador G, she of the gum tree guild

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Gitanjali,

Thanks for that piece about addiction and the shadowed feminine.  It had never occured to me before - evidence of blindness - a good one for the “slide” within.

And might I say that I am cheered to hear us talking astrology to one another.  I thought there might be a ban on it in the I-I.

best,
Michael

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Hi Michael, so what's your sign and what does it mean to ya?
:)
G

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Gitanjali,

Libra sun, Aries moon in opposition, Sag rising  - fiery, airy, conflicted, determined, intuitive, not about balance and harmony so much as seeking it.

yer pal,
Michael

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

I was listening to these dialogs and found this dialog on II from Terry Patten.  I had not seen these before and was drawn to the Wedge in the Heart of Being video where he talks about how embedded we are in the masculine.

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Terry Patten is great isnt he Gina? I love those deep eyes.

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Hey Michael,

You said: ”And might I say that I am cheered to hear us talking astrology to one another.  I thought there might be a ban on it in the I-I.”

Astrology did get tarred with the PTF brush here when that particular axe was being ground …

An Integral Astrology thread was started over on the IN forums, and there has been a call for one to be started here at I-I …. but for me, trying to relate it to, or fit it into, AQAL theory is too much of a head-fuck. I actually like it as it is. I do think, if one knows the basic rudiments of astrology, that the natal chart offers a wonderful glimpse, and possible insight, into a person's soul potential …. but not in any intrusive or 'revealing' way.

I'm all for everyone swapping birth details …. however, would advocate PMs for this …. although having said that I feel this thread is robust enough to incorporate all sorts of aspects, and the chart can teach us a lot about our m/f or f/m balance.

You also said: ”Generally, I feel that I have subverted what may be, on balance, more feminine energies within myself to this parade of ballsy masculinity.  That cannot be a “good” thing in the long run.  I am coming to learn that I feel “better” when I am softer and less “certain” in a male agenic sense.  Kindness arises.”

I was a little non-plussed at the opening lines of your “Jaysus people!” post …. what was speaking out there?

And … I loved, and resonated well with

”I am concerned about dignity and communion - how effortlessly I might misuse these words.  My dignity, if a shadow's mask, is but a defensive lie.  If false, it is vulnerable to insult, and must be protected with reaction - no time for response.  If true, it is not just a sense of self-regard but, more, a sense of regard for other that springs from my own well of self-trust.”

And … ”Communion is at the very edge of the event horizon of absorption and loss of autonymy.” …. what a fantastic line!

Love to you, brother,

Lol

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Gitanjali:
If it is the A.A.
why isnt the “dingo” upside down?
Ambassador G, she of the gum tree guild

The dingo isn't upside down because cameras in Australia are programmed to automatically turn the picture around (smart, eh?)

Or it could be that you don't even have auroras, instead stealing pictures of real Swedish ones and then inventing the term Aurora Australis. Hard to tell really.

You do have your gum trees though, so here's to your guild:






Ok, to get back on track

Gina:
It is the longing that pulls me to deeper and deeper knowings of Feeling and of Being and yet each moment is faced with the fear of once again finding there is not a space being held for me where I can dance.  I fear there is not a masculine balancing my feminine.  AND because I have not seen it, experienced it,  my rational mind interjects with “well then, it is not possible

Thanks for sharing this. It deepens my understanding of the feminine and its fears on the path.



Pelle

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Lol, Dear Ones,

First, let me clear up any confusion about the crack I made up-thread about “gettin' back to a little fightin' … “  What I was saying was that I was so deeply moved (“mush” factor) by the change in overall dynamics from the “debrief thread” to this “faces” exploration, that I could hardly focus on what, if anything I had to say.  As I think about it now, I realize that use of the word “mush” totally trivializes my experience.  Trouble is, I am having a hard time finding the voice which yearns to speak through the emotional vastness that I trivialized with the word “mush.”

It must be the feminine, repressed for lifetimes it seems, calling me to open to it.  I have been able, in the past, to allude to it allegorically, metaphorically, and symbolically - owning it is a different matter.  I know I must have lived there for a while as a child, yet consistent feedback did not support it, and I bowed to the false masculine ideal as a means of defensing a precious “something” about myself that seemed unwelcome in the world.  Thus I became ballsy, uber-masculine, confrontational, combative, arrogant and judgmental.  I learned about debate, logic, semantics, symbolism, linguistics, word origins, philosophy, psychology, the history of science, anthropology, cosmogyny and a smattering of other 'ologies, 'isms, and 'ographies.  I came to never know what I was going to say when I opened my mouth - it just poured out, energized by adrenaline, as I was largely in a state of shadowed fear whenever I “took the stage.”  I was almost exclusively in a state of projection and impervious to any thought that I might fundamentally be trespassing.  People needed to hear what I had to say whether they wanted to or not.  Really, in the end, I now have to admit that I would have been happy if they “understood” me, but I was satisfied if they were just afraid of me.

I have only just begun to accept this rather humiliating picture of my self.  I have the rigors of the I-I exchange to thank for this as many people here have had the courage to stand up to me and share, in the “response” mode, the impact of my “declarations” on their state of being.  For years I “thrived” on the perception of myself as a warrior/shaman/mystic/tribal chieftan all the while beneath nursing the woeful archetype of the victim martyr.  I knew how to handle men.  Men were vexacious but “easy” to manipulate or discard, while women remained ever elusive, did not “get” me, could not stand up to me and resorted to what I considered “destructive” language when confrontation arose.  A sense of deep separation from community had persisted all my life until just 3 months ago when I was swept into the vortex of the Integral.  More has “happened” to me in the past 3 months than in my previous 60 years put together, and more has happened to me in the past 2 weeks than in the previous 3 months combined.  I am reeling in the blast of my earlier “self”-concept as its bits fly off into space.  Part of me is trying to snatch them back and another is waving them good riddance.  This new voice, timid, but “undeniable” as Gitanjali put it, pays attention to neither, calling instead for me to turn within.

Ah, what a grand life it is if I will but turn to it.

Yer pal,
Michael

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

There are so many beautiful threads within threads here all weaving into the one tapestry.

Gina said

“Feeling the balance of m/f has come from directly claiming my feminine and exploring my shadow feminine while seeing my masculine more clearly for its role within me.”

I feel the shadow feminine has a lot to answer for. I want to relate this concept to the green man post by Pelle and to suggest that this work of integrating the feminine is so much part of what men will have to do.

Pelle's post:

It is confusing to be a man in this day and age, and that is an understatement. Large groups of men have been and are being brought up with green and mean green ideas. Even if one's family isn't green, green ideas and feminism are a very real presence in most parts of the western world. The ideas that consciously or unconsciously are imprinted in boys/men are that men are oppressors, men are violent, men dominate women, men get paid more, men are insensitive, men are egotistical, men start wars, men are out of touch with mother Earth, etc etc etc. The general message to boys/men about women is that these are gentle and noble creatures and if men would just stop being so nasty and oppressive most of the problems in the world would disappear.

And voilá, we have just created The Sensitive Man. This man goes out of his way not to be a stereotypical man; instead trying hard to be nice, be polite, treat women well, respect women, let the woman decide what to do, accept equal pay but still buy women flowers and dinner, never assert yourself, never hurt the feelings of a woman, etc etc. It is quite possible to socialize men into this very sensitive but also very weak role. But don't think for a minute that this is something that comes naturally or easily to a man. The Green Man spends huge amounts of energy to be who he is. It takes active restraining to maintain that kind of facade. Sometimes The Green Man appears to be the true identity of a man, and in some cases it is, but most of the time this is only a sign that huge chunk of biological instincts have been deeply repressed and buried as shadow.

The green modifications of the UL and LL simply go against male biology (UR) in a large majority of men. Trying to uphold a green identity for a man is equivalent to holding two magnetic plus poles against each other: it takes continuous work. This is not to say that we don't need green, because we do. The trouble arises when men become stuck in green and think that this is the ultimate truth and hence they need to spend their lives going against their natural impulses and even being ashamed of having a strong masculine energy inside of them. This is destructive for men and society as a whole.

There is a very specific insight that usually awakens men from their green slumber. The Green Man starts seeing patterns in society and in life that are not at all compatible with what he has been taught. Bad Boys get high-paying jobs and are generally respected for their masculine vibe. The very women who spend hours lecturing their male friends how to be more sensitive and green regularly choose Bad Boys for casual sex. When the Green Man starts to notice what really going on he realizes that neither women nor society reward him for being a Green Man. He realizes that in fact he has been socialized into a spineless wimp. Now if this is only a partial insight and mostly unconscious, which is often the case, then rage starts to brew and can stay with him indefinitely. I'm certain that everybody reading knows men who obviously carry a lot of unresolved anger around.

So what's the answer to all this, should all green men regress and become Bad Boys themselves? This is obviously one option but I don't believe it's the best one. Bad Boys generally have their own set of problems that can only be solved by moving up the spiral. Instead we men need to find a role that is compatible with our biology and with a masculine polarity, we need a new role that will let the totally of who we are thrive. It's OK to be a man. You don't have to be half woman or ashamed of yourself. It is OK be direct, assertive and confident. All these masculine traits are a blessing and you will do yourself and the world a huge disservice by repressing who you really are. Connect your masculinity to your heart and you will be a force to be reckoned with, a force that actually does a lot of good for the world. What the world has at the moment is prerational Bad Boys, wimpy Green men and subtly raging Green men. Masculine men with a higher purpose are in desperately short supply. And masculine heart-centered men who are confident around women and not afraid of flirting and initiating the human mating game, are in equally short supply - ask any woman you know :)

Paradoxically enough the way out of rage and male dysfunction is not to dig deeper into green (if you've already done five years hard time there), it is to reclaim your masculinity and integrate it with your heart

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Michael, your post is so moving, I just want to sit with it.

With much love
Gitanjali

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Gitanjali,

Thanks for reproducing Pelle's post here.  It is a an unflagging testament to the dilemma of modern “man.”  I deeply get the pull to return to the self-assertive green chieftan vibe and just rest in all my skills and “knowledge.”  Too bad, though, that I want more than mere security.  Adventuring on the frontiers of my own m/f expression presents a challenge I cannot resist.  How wonderful it might be to be able to really synthesize these forces and blend them to circumstance?  How healing it might be to take the disclosure risk?  I know, that for me, this spilling of guts must precede any more theorizing on my part.  The “theoretical” has been a safe place for me as, previously, I could avoid the doubt and uncertainty of conflicting emotions by relying upon my intellect and its framing capabilities.  It just has not led to where I “belong” and only to where I don't.  I don't intend to toss this capability, just set it aside for a while, explore the feminine within, reconcile as possible with the masculine and observe the effect on my theorizing skills and intellectual perspectives.

What Pelle says here, ”Paradoxically enough the way out of rage and male dysfunction is not to dig deeper into green (if you've already done five years hard time there), it is to reclaim your masculinity and integrate it with your heart.”

is fundamentally true for men generally.  My own experience is more towards an acceptance of masculinity as my libidinous lower-level orientation, a reclamation of my anima at the heart level (the province of the divine feminine which holds the temple space for Christ/Krishna Consciousness) and a free, gender-blind environment for the brain-centered intellect.  As Pelle is perhaps suggesting, it must begin at the beginning, not the mind, not the heart, but the libido, progressing “upwards” no stones unturned.

Yer pal,
Michael

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Ay yay yay, all – So much is happening in this thread and I'm loving it – and have been meaning to get back to it (especially since I kind of pulled Gina in over from another thread and all) – feeling a little guilty about taking so long …

Anyway, I'm wanting to respond to some things Gina pointed out earlier when I dragged her into the thread (hehe):

Gina wrote: My personal experience has been that I can be very masculine and pointed when in inquiry mode and feminine and rounded when in midst of the flow of interaction.  Yet my masculine is very much present most of the time here in this forum.  Maybe it is because I ask and inquire as a way of deflecting my opinion (or my perceived lack of Informed opinion) and that is my shadow to overcome or maybe it is because this forum is Masculine and in order to be here I adapt.

I too notice that the masculinity of these forums pushes me toward a more “analytical” mode in terms of my postings here, because that's the general zeitgeist – but I know that what brought me here in the first place (and what keeps me coming here) is a feminine and communal urge for interaction with like-minded people. So sometimes there's an odd tension that I feel between this analytical zeitgeist and the urge to commune. I read the analyses here, and I generally appreciate them and get a lot out of them, but I'm left with a thirst for more personal sharings, stories, specific examples that illustrate abstract assertions (like Pelle's use of his tango experience to illuminate the dance of masculine and feminine), tastes and textures, weathers, grits and catfish, whimsical wanderings, etc. Sometimes there will be posts that contain sharp analysis as well as lyrical memoir-like musings, the abstract and the embodied, and I'll leap for joy. (Jane is good at those kinds of posts!)

Gina: I have a woman I work with who is strong Amber with Red tendencies.   She has strong christian values, works in the Oil refinery business in sales and is on a roller derby team on the weekends.

Her unhealthy outbursts are very agressive, reactive and absolute.  It appears to be masculine in its energy but really it is a feminine version of red/amber gone wrong.

These observations are based on the base structure of her developmental lines as I see them. 

OR…… and  we could use specific hot points and experiences where healthy and unhealthy show up.

An example from my own past (more than 20 years ago) of unhealthy feminine communion: getting into and sustaining a bad relationship, believing that any connection with a lover was better than none at all. I fused with someone who was emotionally abusive (and pathologically jealous) and who may have escalated to physical abuse if circumstances had kept us together longer. Luckily for me, circumstances changed. But while I was in this relationship, I had to suppress all agentic and autonomous strivings in myself just to keep the peace. My connections with other friends and family were a threat to him, so I found myself withdrawing from them. I had to keep most of my anger at bay, and it simply went into my body: I began to clamp my teeth at night (sometimes fists too) and on occasion I'd wake myself up after biting my tongue bloody. 

It dawned on me one day that I might actually die if I continued on in this relationship. Maybe not physically (although that was within the range of possibilities), but definitely spiritually. He had to spend some weeks in jail because of some old outstanding warrants that came back to haunt him. We were corresponding by letter, and one day he'd gotten so upset about me not writing him often enough that he threatened to kill himself. (He had done this several times before in hopes that it would keep me from leaving him). Perhaps being away from him had allowed me to regain some strength – whatever it was, I decided, “well, it's either him or me.” Of course, I didn't really think he was serious about the suicide threat (and it turned out that he wasn't). But I went into some kind of survival mode, thinking, “if someone is going to die here, it's not going to be me.” And with that, I pulled out of the fusion. Some little thread of agency re-asserting itself? Or maybe just the desire to live and breathe …

All for now,
Mary

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Gina, Michael, Mary

I hear your longing and it is mine too. and OK I admit  its also the catfish thats got me, I really wanna here about when you ate the catfish was it a sultry night somewhere in America? a bbq where one you loved was present?

I have been wondering whether a more private thread (not too private, just one restricted to all IIzaadz members, would help create the safety that some of us need to express our more personal experiences?). I certainly feel i need a bot more privacy. Right now i have a vague sense that the whole world can read it. I guess the story threads were also another way of reaching to that need.

I felt the longing of many for this on the deNile thread… there people were starting to really unpeel their layers and speak from their immediate personal experiences. For a number of reasons that thread exploded but I feel we could learn from that and find a space where we can speak very intimately…

I guess people also use private emails to do this too, but the sharing in a deep group around the fire-altar is also part of my yearning.

Love
Gitanjali

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Michael:
As Pelle is perhaps suggesting, it must begin at the beginning, not the mind, not the heart, but the libido, progressing “upwards” no stones unturned.

This is exactly what I mean Michael, you're very perceptive.
If we don't start from the bottom, from the beginning, we will have ourselves a very disembodied and  less than grounded masculinity.
It's fairly easy to be masculine within the intellectual realm, but truly embodying the masculine is a whole other matter.

I also want to thank you Michael for your sharing, I can sense how your reaching new levels of honesty and clarity. Amazing that this community has helped you catalyze such a change, or at least kicked you over the edge (in a loving way I would hope).


Mary, thank you for sharing that personal story from the past. You took a deep dive into the unhealthy feminine but in the moment of truth your survival instincts emerged and you reconnected to your agency. It was both a beautiful and terrible read. Thanks for sharing.

This also illustrates how the healthy feminine by definition needs to be connected to an element of inner agency, just like the healthy masculine must stay connected to an inner drive for communion. Only the unhealthy masculine has no interest in communion.


Gitanjali, I doubt that we could make a specific thread invisible to the rest of the world. If there is or were to emerge a technology that enables us to make one board of the pod invisible to the rest of the world, then that would be perfect. I can send a PM and ask.


Pelle

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

While groups can never be as intimate as the one on one space, one thing I love about them is how one person reflects another and then I look again at both, seeing them both anew.

:))

Gitanjali

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Dear Ones,

Generally, I think more, better work might be done in a environment that was more private than this currently “hottest” thread on Zaadz.  Carelessness is one of my persistent character defects and, though I am relatively fearless about revealing myself as it becomes apparent to me, I often do not consider what this might mean to my family, for instance, or my friends on Zaadz who may be encouraged by my “sharing” style, but reluctant because of the challenge to anonymity.  This is not an outcome I feel comfortable with as well as a responsibility to exercise restraint in all matters of “pen and tongue.”  I personally resist being obscure (though some of my posting must seem that way) or circuitous.  If ever there was a subject that needs the most tender and direct approach, the m/f paradigm is it.

What else do we have BUT our personal experiences and feelings about them to communicate our yearnings and reluctances?  I would love to hear what my dear friends' lives have been like in this regard.  To bring light to the deep, the deep must first be brought forward.  Everything possible must be done to make this safe as possible.  I know that the I-I is not the place for “therapy” per se, yet there is something about this process of sharing, reflection, and mutual support happening across time and the planet that cannot be duplicated even in the most private and facilitated of real time settings.  I, for one have found this thing we are “doing” to be personally revolutionary - a “need.”

Yer pal,
Michael

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

I mentioned something to Pelle that I think impacted what we were doing on the Song of the Nile “debriefing” thread which is related to this concern for privacy, particularly when we are going deep into territory which could prove psychodynamically challenging and transformational.  Several people have mentioned to me that it would have been better to “go private” with that discussion at an earlier stage, to avoid disrupting or negatively impacting I-I Zaadz overall, and also to protect all involved in the discussion.  I think there is wisdom in this.  But there is something else to consider too:  when venturing into a space of deep sharing, where we are entering an autonomous “group therapeutic” space, I think we should consider also adopting a “rule” used in group therapy.  In group therapeutic contexts, members of the group are advised not to meet or speak outside of the group; and if they do, to fully disclose what was discussed to the group once it convenes again, to avoid disruptive undercurrents which could undermine the overall sense of trust and coherence in the group.  I think the exchange of private messages which we engaged in, some of which contained material which was the source for tension which erupted into the group itself (but was never clarified to all participating in the group), undermined our efforts and contributed (but did not exclusively account for)  the derailing we experienced.

I don't mean to detract from this wonderful thread with these thoughts; I just wanted to add this brief interjection as people consider going private.

Best wishes,

Balder

Re: Faces of the Feminine and the Masculine.

Ah, Balder – 

This is so true – what you're saying about the “group therapy” rule! It's something that now seems so obvious that I'm surprised no one brought it up previously. Maybe that's because the debriefing thread had never been explicitly defined as a group therapeutic space, even though some participants had described it (and the Story thread itself) that way.

Thank you for the reminding,

Mary