Integral Women

*********** NOTICE PLEASE READ HEADER BEFORE POSTING**********

In this we space we are creating, an element of we is seemingly getting silenced.  This thread is for women posters Only.  If you are a man and have a question, feel free to start your own thread in response, this thread is for all of us women to have an opportunity to speak to each other as integral women without male influence.  We have tried to share the we space in an open thread and it did not work.  Please respect the intention of this thread.

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Thought we might start here.  Elizabeth Debold.

From the above link  “Where are all the Women”

3.  We have to reach beyond gender. To find our way to a new moral ground, we need to question our compulsive choices-the desire for sexual power, the pull toward security-and to seek something new beyond woman as we have known her. Gloria Steinem has been speaking for a few years about moving “beyond gender,” yet what that means remains vague. No wonder. It demands an extraordinary effort to find out who we are, beyond the victim, the entitled narcissist, the sexual provocateur, or any of the many faces of Eve. The transformation of consciousness that would be unleashed by women making choices for something beyond either personal success/power or the security of the hearth could transform society “once and for all” in ways we cannot imagine now. 


Moving beyond gender has been a difficult one for me.  I would say that first, it is imperative we move into our own gender and solidly feel all it means to be a woman in today's world.  Understandably this is a personal view for each of us, yet it seems there are similarities we all hold. 

I will start with the one that prompted this thread, being HEARD.  How is it we can be heard?  My answer back to that is, am I listening to myself?  Do I answer to my own call and do I respect and honor myself?   The undercurrents of my own disowning of my truest self are strong and I dive to the depths of my being to find my voice.   I have been silenced and I have roared, I have smiled, I have raged, I have walked away, stomped my feet, surrendered and yet I am here still wondering if I am being heard.

What do You say?

Re: Integral Women

Thank you for this thread and these questions, Gina!

And by the way, Frans has started a related thread, Integral Feminine, where both men and women can post. A man who writes a response in this particular thread (which might happen intentionally or by accident) will have his post deleted or removed and placed in another thread (I can use my mod powers to do so …)

Those are good questions to think about on listening to, respecting, and honoring one's self. I will ponder and return …

Mary

P.S. – Years ago when I was working in education, I participated in several anti-racism workshops and dialogues. One of the techniques used in some of these workshops was to initially divide people up into distinct groups – blacks, whites, Latinos, multiracials, etc., in which people could talk freely about issues that they might not discuss so readily in “mixed” groups. It was, in fact, a tactic that allowed people to be heard and acknowledged. Eventually, the groups re-convened for cross-racial discussion – but having that initial time to talk things over with “one's own” is an important part of the process …. I know that we don't have quite the same thing happening in this thread (since in this case all can read the posts here) – but I do feel that keeping it “women only” will bring things out that might not otherwise emerge …

Re: Integral Women

Thanks, Gina. As one who has been most outspoken about this, I will try to get the ball rolling.

Of course, the whole thing with Robb pissed me off royally. I haven’t been back to look at that forum today, but I have no faith whatsoever that anything will change at I-I, or whatever new branding they’ve decided on. I think the whole thing is a house of cards, because there is so much shadow weighing it down, but that’s another book on its own.

Colin nailed it pretty well when he said he thought I might like to slap Robb. Actually, I had a dream recently about another man in my life whose cluelessness has driven me crazy, and the image I chose was of carrying him around, and slamming his head into the wall every chance I got. That’s more along the lines of how I felt about Robb and even Ken. Pretty graphic. I think that this is what happens inside when anger is dismissed, either internally or externally. It has to come out somewhere.

An interesting thing is that I really thought I was aiming that anger all at Robb. But the men here seemed to take it on themselves. This made me think of several possibilities:

–I didn’t make it clear that I was angry at Robb because I was also angry at all men and wanted all of them to suffer my wrath.

–I was angry at the forum men for not supporting me.

–They took my anger on as directed at them because it triggered them in some way, and I was a hook for their projection.

Since life is so sloppy, my guess is that it was a combo of all three. They can feel free to anwer that question in another thread, but my line of thinking is to expolre it in this thread from a woman’s perspective.

Every women has had this experience. You’re in a conversation with men and they simply ignore what you’re saying. You might as well not be there. So if it’s important, and you need to be heard, you’re virtually forced to be strident just to get over the threshold of their awareness. Then you’re labeled a bitch. Or you have to resort to speaking to people individually, and then you’re a gossip. There’s a negative word for every way a woman has been forced to communicate.

Or you’re in a relationship where you express your needs repeatedly, and they are not met. Again, with the repetition, only this time, it tends to be nagging.

It may be that in the case of the thread on the forum, what I really needed was for the men to say, “Hey, you’re not addressing all of us, and we did not appoint Bruce to speak for everyone.” To me, that would be the masculine space-holding that would have made me feel heard and safe. The guys, naturally, want to get to the point, and be sure that Robb hears the complaints. But I would assert that that simply reinforces the lopsided agency that fucked up things in the first place, and that there needs to be communion before any real change can occur. The leap to progress is bound for failure, as they’re leaving out half the foundation.

Liz

Re: Integral Women

Dangit, I just spent over an hour composing a little warm-up ditty for this thread only to see that Liz has already jumped into the middle of where the rubber meets the road. I want to respond to you Liz; say the things that came up for me yesterday night when I read the exchange you guys had here   and comment on what you said above.

But I still want to submit this piece as well, just for the sake of expressing some stuff that's been rolling around. Feel free to skip and ignore, girls, I won't pout ;-)

Edit: I withdrew my post. It's just not right to insert unrelated musings into this space, I feel.

M

Re: Integral Women

Yeah, Mascha, I tend to get right down to it. I don't want my very practical manner to get in the way of any different kind of sharing, though. I don't feel a need for this thread to be linear or all about one topic, does anyone else?

The creation of this thread made me wonder if men were going to try to start something similar. And the non-meatspace aspect makes this kind of deeper sharing quite tricky online. I don't blame anyone who really doesn't want to participate for that or any other reason.

I myself am feeling stretched to the limit by my personal life. But I am of the opinion that this is where practice actually counts, and if I wait until I feel equanimous before writing everything, I'll be boring as hell. My highest self ain't the one that needs all the work, after all.

Liz

Re: Integral Women

Well, double-dangit, Mascha. I read what you just wrote before you edited it and really dug it, – I was just mulling over your musings about this thread emerging in the largely agentic  / academic Chapel Perspicacious sub-pod … and I'm sorry that you decided to ax most of your post there. Still, that's your prerogative.

But damn; it was good!

Mary

Re: Integral Women

Well, triple crap Mary and hail Tamgoddess, if you're this loose about it, so will I be. But I do want to give priority to what Liz has brought up, so this is just a divertimento, and then I'll hack my teeth into the meat.

Here goes the old post:

Gina: ” I have been silenced and I have roared, I have smiled, I have raged, I have walked away, stomped my feet, surrendered and yet I am here still wondering if I am being heard.

What do you say?”

Two things. The first notion that popped up when I saw this thread could be described as a visual, Oh, women only… Hmmm, that's going to make me feel even more self-conscious than usual for trotting out anything around here. That's like dancing in a cage in a joint called Chapel Perspicacious together with a bunch of women in various states of undress while the academics who frequent the bar watch and judge our performance, finding themselves in various states of arousal and disgust. And to hell with that, I'm not posting there.

Second thing is more positive, bear with me, it does get a little better. O.k., taking your cue, Gina, asking myself if I'm being heard, the question immediately becomes, “Heard by whom? Who do I want to hear me as far as these forums go?” I had to look for a minute or so to realize that it's just one person, really, who I want to get through to. Why is a very delicate, esoteric matter, and I won't say more.  The rest of the frequent fliers here is either hearing me well enough already, or… it doesn't matter one way or the other, I'm cool with having no approval or no felt sense of genuine resonance.

As far as being heard in “real life”, I've been extraordinarily lucky personally, validated as an individual, a woman, a professional, an artist - you name it, all the way up to being confirmed as the One Without a Second by beings whose confirmation mattered the most because they were free and motivated by none other than the nameless source itself to transmit the liberating news to everyone, including me.

But on a collective level, I see so much debris shrouded in density, numbness, heavy anesthesia – I'm picking my way through treacherous terrain, hollering, Is there anybody out there? Then I hear all sorts of answers, but many of them either frighten or alienate me. Women divorced from their gut-given vitality colluding with men in the ongoing wars for supremacy: The Head or the Heart? Who Rules the Western worlds and Owns the Earth? Well, it's the head cases who are being worshipped even by those who've been enslaved and exploited continually by the laws these nutters keep laying down on us, the stupefied masses too busy and tired to revolt, let alone wake up.

What can I do? So little, it makes me weep.

But then there are moments of brilliance and days of hope for a Return of the King, the man with the golden glow above his brow, the essence of what is symbolized by a crown. And hope for the Return of the ancient Queen, worldly and divine at the same time. A vital, vibrant, connected pair, each self-sufficient but working as a loving team.

So it's up to me to do what little I can to become the Way that others might walk on more easily than us and our mothers before us.

Yeah, right. Dream on…


For years, I misunderstood the lyrics of Aerosmith's greatest hit. Whenever I heard it, thrills rushed through me, listening to Steven Tyler evoking Woman Power with this rousing refrain:

Sing women
Sing for the years
Sing for the laughter, sing for the tears

Sing women
Sing for today
Maybe tomorrow the good Lord will take you away

Dream on
 
Dream on

Dream until your dreams come true…


Of course, Tyler was just singing, “Sing with me” – an altogether less magnificent proposal, though I met the guy once, briefly, and was struck by the sense of being in the presence of someone who had combined male and female qualities in himself to a degree that goes far beyond his androgynous good looks. I felt my internal knees weaken and my heart fly out to him inadvertently. And just when the shame for such weakness and the fear of being mistaken for a li'l groupie dumb-struck by the power of fame, wanted to rise up within, Tyler returned my glance of silent recognition, and there was a moment between us of mutual acknowledgment for being essentially the same. And all the pain and joy that comes with being all that was exchanged in one stellar moment of communion. Stuff like this goes a long way to sustain someone who wants to Be It All, All the Time, and be Heard, Seen, Recognized, grokked to the n'th degree by everyone on the road, AND even more urgently, give the same to everyone.

Re: Integral Women

Hi Mascha,

I'm glad you posted this after all. I, too, misheard those song lyrics as Sing Women and was very much inspired (apparently we're not the only ones, mishearings about women abound
for this song). The need to be seen and heard has ever been a driving force, something I'm trying to let go but remains alive and kicking. :)

Have we discussed the recent What is Enlightenment issue about women? I would very much like to know what you all think of it, especially the dialogue between Andrew and Ken. It left me feeling profoundly dissatisfied. It had such potential!

Re: Integral Women

Have we discussed the recent What is Enlightenment issue about women? I would very much like to know what you all think of it, especially the dialogue between Andrew and Ken. It left me feeling profoundly dissatisfied. It had such potential!

Ha Nicole

you too?

I started to write and then edited it. I want to re-read it before I write in depth in case my first reaction was shadow triggered. But I wasn't impressed.

Juliee

Re: Integral Women

I am bolting out the door for a night of live music… but I just had to say…. whoa and whoa.

I too felt odd at first about wanting this (my image was more the cackle of the laughter and the knowing glances women rise to when in groups) about the separation of ourselves and did we really need it.  I need it.  I need to be in a place where the questions asked of me will be more female in texture and not require a complete analysis of my usage of words (as the know nods begin)

I was at a gathering the other day and the speaker said, ” and this is a space where women don't have to explain themselves”

We might want to…… be we don't have to.

Be back tomorrow!

G

Re: Integral Women

Cya tomorrow, Gina. Looking forward to you joining in.

Forgive me for backtracking to what I wanted to communicate to Liz last night when reading the exchanges on the other thread ~

Liz:  “It’s like this: A group of us disgruntled villagers goes up to the lord of the manor and petitions to be heard. Then the lord opens the door, lets in one man he’s designated as the voice of all, without their consent (and not angry at Balder, here, I’m just talking about Robb’s actions) and closes the door on everyone else’s face. Then maybe he lets in another man or two, but the rest of us are outside. And I heard this other woman crying out, and it seemed like nobody in the castle heard her, either, and I may not have even really known who she was before, but now I can feel her anger and pain so viscerally, that I begin to cry with her.”


I'm with you, Liz, all the way. Here's what I envision in a nutshell ~

Teatime at the manor with Robb and Ken


http://www.feebleminds-gifs.com/headoff.jpg

 

Have no mercy on us all, goddess. Thnx,

M

Re: Integral Women

Whoa: great painting, Mascha …

Tam-Liz, you wrote:

Every women has had this experience. You're in a conversation with men and they simply ignore what you're saying. You might as well not be there. So if it's important, and you need to be heard, you're virtually forced to be strident just to get over the threshold of their awareness. Then you're labeled a bitch. Or you have to resort to speaking to people individually, and then you're a gossip. There's a negative word for every way a woman has been forced to communicate.

This is so true. Where a man might be called confident, assured, kick-ass, and no-holds-barred (Earpy, ya know), a woman is often deemed aggressive, strident, desparate, bitchy. And where a man might be called gentle, diplomatic, compassionate, a woman might be called weak, tentative, a shrinking violet. And while these might be skewed perceptions and projections, and thus “shouldn't matter,” I think they do matter, on both the personal and collective level.

When I look at Gina's questions: am I listening to myself?  Do I answer to my own call and do I respect and honor myself? –my honest answer is “occasionally.” Too often I still look to others before I look to myself, gauging reactions and responses, sniffing the air to see what might win approval. It's an automatic thing that happens in me, often unconscious, before I can really “catch” it.  (And for me it probably has roots in childhood, even pre-verbal, life events – but I realize that part of it has to do with being female.)
 
When I do realize I have done this – generally after the fact – my first impulse is to put myself down for being so approval-seeking. Of course, this doesn't help at all. It just ends up making me feel all the more weary, my tiredness becomes all the more tired, and my future responses all the more weak and contracted. The healthier path for me right now is to simply notice this pattern when it happens – notice without the self-deprecation, if possible, but if the self-deprecation occurs anyway, then notice that too. And offer it up to God/dess, offer it up to Love.

There is this growing part of me that knows I have to surrender this stuff. These patterns  may run too deep and I may have too few years left in this life to “correct” or re-route the patterns. I really don't know! Perhaps respecting and honoring myself may mean accepting the fact that I presently remain unable to fully respect and honor myself – and recognizing that this does not mean that I'm a horrible person, a worthless woman. Just flawed and limited. Quirky and human.

Liz, you mentioned your dream about slamming a man's head into a wall, and Mascha, you spoke of “picking my way through treacherous terrain, hollering, Is there anybody out there?” And … what I have sometimes are angry, hollering dreams. I wander around, angrily shouting at the top of my lungs, and usually nobody hears me. I don't generally have access to that vein of anger in my waking life, and that's probably why my dream-anger is not “heard.” But of course it also represents the anger of the unheard Feminine – and the anger that Liz expressed in her above posts and in a couple of posts on the IN thread.

A related side thought: I notice that none of KW's “guest blogs” thus far have been by women. (As far as I can tell by names, at least). Of course, I have no idea how many, if any, women have sent stuff in …

Just traipsing around in my thoughts here, musing …

Mascha, thinking about your image of this thread being kinda like a go-go dancer cage in the Chapel: I can totally see what you're saying, and why it might create resistance to posting here. And yet at the same time, I like seeing this thread arising in a theory-oriented sub-pod usually dominated by males. Why must theory always be defined as high abstraction and associated with agency / maleness / academia? This was a question a professor of mine posed many years ago. He was implying that, in the realm of art and literature at least, there's a kind of falseness in separating “story / narrative” from “theory.” Why couldn't story, and personal and communal sharing be seen as a way of analyzing ideas? And why couldn't theory be a form of story-telling?

Thanks, y'all; more later –

(I am Mary, hear me meow!)

Re: Integral Women

Gina: I will start with the one that prompted this thread, being HEARD.  How is it we can be heard?  My answer back to that is, am I listening to myself?  Do I answer to my own call and do I respect and honor myself?   The undercurrents of my own disowning of my truest self are strong and I dive to the depths of my being to find my voice.

Dear All
Until I read the masc/fem thread I didn't even see hear or feel how much I had disowned my feminine self. I was aware of my fear of men (in a generalised, non-specific way) and had started to slough off some of the layers of survival mechanisms for living in a male world but without seeing it as a masculine-feminine thing at all. Just a sense of 'this feels right, for now'.

I welcome this space as a place to discover more about my feminine self in a held/narrative/experiential context. Having said that I have learnt much about myself from the cut and thrust of the threads where I have felt unheard too. Who is it who's not listening to myself - me.

I'm booked onto the Women's ILP (or whatever its called) workshop at the Omega Institute in September. Anyone been on this workshop? Anybody going?

Liz
I resonated with your series of examples of ways of being unheard and reactions to them and want to explore them, but for now I have no time. I'll come back to them later.

With love
Juliee

Re: Integral Women

Dear Ones (or should I say Dear Females?) ,
I suppose here (in this thread) it is best to honor just an aspect of who we are, the feminine aspect? I do not speak from my highest self, the Integral self, but from the woman in me.
Interesting this (seperation) is done within a pod which ask us to come from our highest self; our highest self is not female or male. Granted, it's not as if seperations were not already naturally occuring. I for one have only commented a few times on I-I even though I have been reading messages on here long before I joined zaadz. I come here for the male perspective as it so often does dominate here (on I-I). I supose I didn't comment on that because there was not a blatant seperation just a naturally occuring one which is, I think, still difficult for some to realize and understand the nature of. Men and women have long gathered into sperate little groups (as seperate little groups are always forming due to similarities and differences).
I thought this pod was one were an overall or underlying or main intent was to talk about how we remember being ONE? While it can be useful to discuss the difficulties in not being ONE is I-I the place to do it?
We know male & female energy is different and will manifest differently. Communications will be different AND yes, some will see that as “not as good as” as “impossible to understand” I happen to be a woman who came from a time & place of more blatant seperations (of any differences not just gender) and am always ever so Thankful for each step toward integration of ALL).
Sure, some men see us women as less (in some way) or some of them do not understand the female approuch (yet) BUT we can not change that. We need not allow someone else to define us. Us females have just as much right to speak in I-I as any male and it is only the feeling that we don't that creates this need to seperate within this pod. In other words what our we hiding from here? I understand the need to feel free to say what we want in any way we want without being attacked in some maner BUT you see, that freedom was never taken from you. This thread is on the other hand taking freedom from men who might read this, they are not given the option of responding to us here. 
For this pod to become truly Integral it will need to have the balance of male and female.  
Much Love & Peace to ALL
BeLynn  
 
 

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Hi, BeLynn! Good to hear from you.

You are right, of course. I see this thread as descension (sp?), as a looking backward to go pick up the pieces we may have left behind, in order to integrate them and move on. What I’ve seen at I-I and in the integral movement in general is a tendency not to include, but to exclude that which has not been fully integrated in its participants. In some instances, it’s an understanding of racism or the sex-positive movement, or religions that aren’t mainstream, or any number of things that simply haven’t been properly represented yet. Not all lines are equally developed, right? So it follows that the integral movement would need to backtrack sometimes, to go back and pick up what has been thrown out with the bathwater. This is not truly going in a backward direction, but is the healthy necessary next step to future integration.

Liz

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Dear Liz,
You say it well. It is obvious the women who have interacted here most are understanding the benefit and already benefiting. 

Much Love & Peace

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Hi BeLynn –

You wrote:

We need not allow someone else to define us. Us females have just as much right to speak in I-I as any male and it is only the feeling that we don't that creates this need to seperate within this pod. In other words what our we hiding from here? I understand the need to feel free to say what we want in any way we want without being attacked in some maner BUT you see, that freedom was never taken from you. This thread is on the other hand taking freedom from men who might read this, they are not given the option of responding to us here. 

I disagree with you on this.

As mentioned earlier, if men would like to respond to the posts in this thread, they are welcome to do so – but in another thread. Out of the (by now) hundreds of threads in this pod, this is the only one, so far, which is “women only.” I don't see how it could be defined as taking any freedom away from men, especially given the fact that any member of this pod can create their own thread here. (And if a man decides to start a “male only” thread, I wouldn't have any problem with that, either. Although, lol, many threads here are male-only by default … )

On the other hand, the emergence of this thread might free up some women to reflect on and say things that they might not say in a “mixed” thread. 

While it may be true that the freedom to “say what we want” has never been taken away from us, not everyone feels that way. Simply stating this as a “fact” does not necessarily change that feeling.

I see this thread as more of a lateral – not a backwards – step. Just the creating of a different sort of space, a place where the unheard might find voice. Or where any number of other things might happen: who knows? Separatism is not the goal. It's more like recollection, a re-gathering of what has been missed, as a means of fostering integration and transformation. 

Best,
Mary

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Dear Mary,

Thank You for your response. First, your message is much like Liz's and well said, I especially like a “a re-gathering of what has been missed”.

My message said nothing against the idea of having seperate places. I was questioning the reasons for having it here. You and Liz gave good reasons and many have joined in with their support.

Much Love & Peace 

Re: Integral Women

Hi BeLynn

You said

I thought this pod was one were an overall or underlying or main intent was to talk about how we remember being ONE?

And my understanding of the rest of your post (paraphrased) was that we should 'talk' on threads open to both male and female to honour this ONENESS. This is a wonderful ideal and I don't see that having one female only thread is a threat to this ideal, indeed most  (if not all) of the women who have participated here so far continue to contribute to other threads. I also believe Gina's perspective to be valid:

 I would say that first, it is imperative we move into our own gender and solidly feel all it means to be a woman in today's world.  Understandably this is a personal view for each of us, yet it seems there are similarities we all hold. 

To become ONE do we need first to be healthily two? (Maybe the men would benefit from a similar thread debating what is an Integral Man?)

While it can be useful to discuss the difficulties in not being ONE is I-I the place to do it?

Where else should we have this discussion? For myself I see this pod as a place to learn, to grow ,to explore. I am nowhere near ONENESS other than in brief glimpses and the difficulties in not being ONE are all too real for me.
Part of that reality for me is not fully knowing or accepting my feminine and to have a space in which to do that, without digressing into a theory or semantics debate, will be precious beyond measure.
There IS a place for theory and semantics (and as Mary I think said there are lots of threads here which already cater for that) - I do not want to be 'misunderstood' again as banning any 'esoteric' discussions only that I want something in addition to.

For this pod to become truly Integral it will need to have the balance of male and female.  

Exactly, and currently this doesn't happen as well as it could.

with love
Juliee

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Dear Juliee,

Thank You for all the good points you bring up. (Please note my responses to Liz & Mary).

You ask, “where else could we have these discussions?” My whole comment is questioning the place to do this, not the doing it, because Integral includes ALL (I was seeing it as not integral). So before I changed my veiw I'd answered, any place that was set up with seperation in mind.
However, I now do not see this thread for women only as an attempt to seperate. You mention a thread for men only , yes, and why stop there … a thread for any and all “parts” of the whole! This IS integral!  
Much Love & Peace

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Hi Be Lynn

Thanks for your thoughts. Have you peeped at Integral Feminine and Integral Men yet (and another one set up by Tim which I haven't quite registered the name of yet)?

I think we can see tendrils creeping out towards the integral vision.

Love

Juliee

Re: Integral Women

Hi there integral women,

This is Brit, I lurk around here mostly. A few months ago I introduced myself here and then got picked to speak with KW himself on a II call which Tamgoddess was also a participant.

I went into retrograde mode after that, trying to analyze KW's words to me, and feeling like I was just an integral poser and he was secretly trying to brush me off since my question to him was about my own marriage and that marriage “We” and not theoretical. I am self conscious about being integral enough, afraid that I am speaking or living in a shadow and can't tell. This makes me a lurker here and in life sometimes.

Thankfully I am getting over this, and just being who I am right now. I am engaging with people and feeling confident that I get integral and that living it completely is just the work you have to do on this Earth, as a human, as a flawed creature. There is work involved.

I have a couple points to add right now, here in this women's only thread. Back to my experience speaking with Ken, I know my reaction to him, my worry and self consciousness was because I am a women and I was asking a question that differed greatly from the other callers. I didn't have a theoretical pot to piss in, if you will. I was just speaking from my need to communicate with my husband as WE and how his own and my own shadows and psychological fissures prevents this from happening. I feel like KW did respond very sensitively to my question, I believe his answer was LOVE and to make love the response especially when I didn't feel heard or understood by my husband.

This is complex territory because several different reactions were firing off through me, Ken Wilber as a man speaking to me, someone I respect whole heartily, then my self consciousness about not being very theoretically inclined and perhaps understanding integral more from my feminine gut, and then my question about my own shortcomings in communal relating to my husband. AHHH!

On a side note. I did participate in last years ILP women's weeklong. I loved it. I truly realized that a sanctuary of women is healing and freeing for spirit. I think unless you have a close group of women friends at home and your circle is healthy, it is easy to forget how powerful being in the company of women who are consciously trying to evolve or open, truly can be.

I really recognize this now in many facets of my life. For example I am training to be a special education teacher this summer with a group of other lateral entry teachers in my community. When the special education teachers broke off for the last 10 days to work on lesson planning and classroom management my experience changed dramatically. First of all, the special education teachers are all women, and the instructor is a woman. So we quickly created a WE space in the other room which was much more free, and loving. I am really not looking forward to joining up with the rest of the teachers this week, as we will go back to being in mixed company. Even if you are in the presence of very enlightened men, they are still men and they energy changes, the learning changes etc. It was a sweet break to just be with the ladies.

So that is my final thought here and why I am posting. How nice to be amongst you!

Much love to you all,

Brit

Re: Integral Women

Hi, Brit! It’s cool to put your face with my memory of you on that call. I suppose we were all a bit in an altered state, no? I remember thinking Ken didn’t quite get it with you, but I’ll have to give it another listen. I have found that listening the first time, live, is very different from going back and listening again. And of course, the whole time I was listening, I was worried about my upcoming questions, so being in that contracted state doesn’t quite broaden one’s awareness.

Liz

Re: Integral Women

Hi Brit

Welcome and hurrah to you for de-lurking, scary isn't it (my not-shadow of course!)?

On a side note. I did participate in last years ILP women's weeklong. I loved it. I truly realized that a sanctuary of women is healing and freeing for spirit. I think unless you have a close group of women friends at home and your circle is healthy, it is easy to forget how powerful being in the company of women who are consciously trying to evolve or open, truly can be.

I'd love to hear more of your experiences as I've never done a 'women only' thing before (I don't count lunch with the girls as that's not specifically women-only by decree!).

Integral Women - Is this a topic for the thread or a PM topic?

Is there a collective term for Integral Women - its a bit of a mouthful isn't it - that we'd like to use? I hesitate to use girls or ladies because of the political correctness police but I do like 'girls', it's cosy, friendly, a held space, but heaven forbid any of the men in my life if they use it!!!! ;-D

Juliee

Re: Integral Women

Wow, there's a lot I want to acknowledge about what's been written here, almost too much. So I'll just say, Hola, Juliee, BeLynn and Brit, welcome, great to see you showing up! And now back to Liz's first post, as promised.

Liz: “Every woman has had this experience. You're in a conversation with men and they simply ignore what you're saying. You might as well not be there. So if it's important, and you need to be heard, you're virtually forced to be strident just to get over the threshold of their awareness. Then you're labeled a bitch. Or you have to resort to speaking to people individually, and then you're a gossip. There's a negative word for every way a woman has been forced to communicate.”

Mary: “This is so true. Where a man might be called confident, assured, kick-ass, and no-holds-barred (Earpy, ya know), a woman is often deemed aggressive, strident, desparate, bitchy. And where a man might be called gentle, diplomatic, compassionate, a woman might be called weak, tentative, a shrinking violet. And while these might be skewed perceptions and projections, and thus “shouldn't matter,” I think they do matter, on both the personal and collective level.”

Question to everyone: Do you think of this as a way of emasculating women?  This constant, often unconscious belittling - is it the main strategy  used in the age-old conspiracy to rob women of their raw, transformational power?


Liz, I wanted to tell you that the pain that has been inflicted on you and Arthur by Robb and Ken's dismissive letter is all I care about in this context.  It seems that the two of you especially have given the most of your heart's blood and your time and sparkling energy to the I-Naked forums, long before I even discovered them a year ago. You took the most salient risks. You were invested, it seems to me, in ways that MUST be recognized fully to keep the energy you have put out flowing back to you, at least in part. This has to be a circle of give and take. Not just a one-way street. And certainly not an outright denial of your invaluable contributions and your unique talents to create an online community.

There's a German word for this devastating kind of denial / devaluing: Gefühlsgeiz - emotional avarice. This is so widespread. Most men are clobbered into developing this affective meanness. We all know that. Repressed emotions can never mature. Kept underground, they simply won't grow up. So we're faced with guys (and women) who may be nondual realizers, living Buddhas - whatever you want to call them - but they're still emotionally stunted in some ways. And the higher their development, the more devastating the effects of even a minor misstep.

The pain.

I want to honor it.

Pure raw pain. Who wants to feel it completely?
Almost nobody.

But that's what's required.

When Liz expressed her pain and anger about Robb and Ken, I had a multi-layered bunch of deja vus, as some of you can imagine  ;-)

What I hear isn't someone asking anybody else to jump up and try to fix anything, let alone prove they were right in the first place and didn't do anything wrong. Right-mongering is exacerbating the felt sense of alienation that has contributed to the pain welling up in the first place.

Can we learn to simply stay with the pain that someone else is expressing and see what it brings up in us?

I think so.

Sometimes a small pain can be a trigger. Within minutes or even seconds, a slight transgression can unravel layers of pain - deeper and deeper and still deeper wounds. The personal becomes the collective, and the collective becomes a cosmic hurt. There's nothing but you and pain, the initial pain of separation, the split into a 'me' and and an 'it' that is “other”. You're utterly alone here. There is no help. Any 'other' trying to prevent you from diving into this is not doing you a favor. They're making a nuisance of themselves. So, shut up if you can't help but be rational. Please be reverent. Hold the space in your own heart. Honor the one who is being swallowed up by the pain of separation from wholeness itself.

This is sacred terrain. Someone is entering the vestibule to the innermost sanctum. They are immersing themselves in the pain that no one else can cure. No one will be left standing after the fire has raged for long enough.

I want to be close to those who burn like this. I want to kiss these flames, inhale them, and be consumed by this holy wholly fire.

Re: Integral Women

Thank you for starting this thread, Gina. I began composing a response yesterday morning and found myself stuttering, censoring, unable to even say to myself the whole truth of what I feel and think. I want to share with you all this process and the experiences, the pain, the confusion, I am so angry that I am so effectively silenced, even as one who seems to be, and in fact in many ways is, a woman who will not be silenced. Yet this inability to express myself about such matters is not an unfamiliar experience. Not at all.

It has been my experience that if I speak the truth of my experience unequivocally, the majority of men and often many of the women (in varying degrees depending on the context) are simply too threatened to be able to digest it. If they can be bothered to be interested in what I am saying in the first place. There are so many ways to dismiss and invalidate what it is too scary or uncomfortable to hear, what you do not have the resources to be present to. I learned how to protect the feelings of the fragile masculine from a very young age. I believe it began before I was talking.

I have watched these dynamics play out here. Painfully. I have witnessed Mascha and Liz and Jane (others of you have as well, but I've not followed most threads closely enough to be a true witness) speaking with phenomenal courage and holding their ground in the midst of collective (but not unilateral) reactivity or killing disinterest that was enough to make my head spin.

The tragedy is that the healthy Masculine doesn't need its feelings protected. Sensing that, intuitively feeling and trusting the archetypal power of the Masculine, I have taken more leaps of faith than I can count, naively expecting its embodiment, and crashing hard, bruised, perplexed in the face of astonishing capacities of male intimates and familiars to deny responsibility and displace hurt and shame. I have been unable to understand why men who profess a central commitment to their own wholeness can persist in the most egregious acts of unwillingness to be accountable for their actions. No doubt I have been idealistic and naive to a fault, and unwilling for decades to live unresistingly open in the world as it is rather than the world as I want it to be. I have intuited the depth and horror of the grievous wounding boys inevitably endure in patriarchal cultures, and I have experienced how that wound essentially abandons them to a nearly impossible situation, forcing them to self-fragment so violently, that true relational and psychological health (or the ability to thrive in any case) is a great rarity. I trust that the act of assuming true responsibility requires a foundation of self-awareness, emotional literacy, and healed shame that is damn hard for a man to come by in this (and most) cultures. But, can we at least acknowledge this then? That this is the miserable situation we find ourselves in now? Can we stop pretending that just because we are a fairly self-aware group that we are anywhere close to freedom from chronic, primarily unconscious, utterly foundational devaluing of the Feminine? And can we stop pretending that this is not horribly unhealthy and wounding for all involved?

I love what Mascha said:
Gefühlsgeiz - emotional avarice… is so widespread. Most men are clobbered into developing this affective meanness. We all know that. Repressed emotions can never mature. Kept underground, they simply won't grow up.
Spot on, imo.

I can't edit right now. Not enough time. I hesitate to post this. I do not believe this medium is sufficient to this task, and suspect that it may only contribute to misunderstandings to say too much here. Yet, I've probably already done that.

Much love,
Lauren

Re: Integral Women

Oh, Lauren – I'm glad you decided to post that; it was wonderful and meaty.

And I know that the medium is not fully sufficient to the task, and I understand the hesitancy and self-censoring and stuttering – this is publically viewable after all, and words here have been misconstrued in the past – but still I'm glad, as always, to see you plowing on through!

Thank you especially for these questions:

Can we stop pretending that just because we are a fairly self-aware group that we are anywhere close to freedom from chronic, primarily unconscious, utterly foundational devaluing of the Feminine? And can we stop pretending that this is not horribly unhealthy and wounding for all involved?

Re: Integral Women

What a fantastic thread this is becoming. Stunning, life-giving.  My initial fears were unfounded, thanks to you all.

Lauren said: “I have intuited the depth and horror of the grievous wounding boys inevitably endure in patriarchal cultures, and I have experienced how that wound essentially abandons them to a nearly impossible situation, forcing them to self-fragment so violently, that true relational and psychological health (or the ability to thrive in any case) is a great rarity. I trust that the act of assuming true responsibility requires a foundation of self-awareness, emotional literacy, and healed shame that is damn hard for a man to come by in this (and most) cultures. But, can we at least acknowledge this then? That this is the miserable situation we find ourselves in now?”

Yes. YES.

As always, you nailed it, Lauren. Here it is. Let's  look at  every last bit of it together and say what we mean out loud. For once. Without fear of reprisals for not delivering the news in the exactly right wrappings. By now we know, the package is never correct and will be criticized by many if it contains this gift. Because it contains this gift.

Thank you so much, and sing, women, sing.

M

P.S. Where is Jane? And Gitanjali?

Re: Integral Women

oh my

So much to say and yet suddenly it is all being said.

The sense I am getting for me at least is that because we are free to feel out our words and not think out our words they come from a deeper more connected place.  Knowing I can bather on about something that is meaningful to me and not have it deconstructed is incredibly powerful.

I danced today.  And in those moments when I was lost within I saw Kali.  I danced Kali.  She was slicing off heads and they were mine.

Here's to sharpening our knives.

Thank you all, Liz, Mary, Mascha, BeLynn, Brit, Lauren, thank you.

Re: Integral Women

Mascha,Lauren

You spoke my thoughts and reflected my impatience in the past with the more extreme (for want of a better adjective) parts of feminism. The wounding is all around, it doesn't just happen to girls and women.

As an undergraduate project (twenty or so years ago) I researched sex-role stereotyping in magazine adverts. The findings were that the stereotyping of males was even narrower and more restricting than females, albeit the roles porttrayed were ones of 'power'. I wondered at the time what it would be like to be male and not happy with the narrowness on offer.

It is a regular topic of discussion with my husband - is he still happy doing the 'bread winner' role? Is he ready to do something else yet? By the nature of all that has gone before we're in the 'classic' male-female married partnership set-up. It was all we really knew (LL LR).

And I'm now wondering - as I type - what does this mean for my sons?

Juliee

Re: Integral Women

Juliee… I was putting on my makeup this morning and thinking about the thread and realized I left you off of my thanks.  Thank you.  and I appologize if you had a single moment of feeling ……. anything but grace.

with deep appreciation

Gina

Re: Integral Women

I must admit I huffed for a minute or two!! ;-)))

And then I said 'thanks' for reminding me to let go of my dependence on external recognition. I'm learning so much just by being here.

I wonder could putting on make-up be an ILP, that and having a shower? I have my more lucid moments at these times.

Love
Juliee

Re: Integral Women

There is a confounding knot in masculine and feminine relationships. I am sure of this. It can mostly easily be named as the knot of male fear/female anger. From now on I will refer to it as the Confounding Knot. Men are totally ‘scared shitless’(to quote my mother who never swears ) of women anger. I am not talking about the ‘nagging, bitching, PMSing’ kind of anger. I am talking about a full bloodied embodiment of female heart-anger. (see Robert Masters June essay) This female heart-anger is not a destructive egoic rage, or a self-serving temper tantrum. This is a powerful, universal force, it is the embodiment of Kali, her force that burns and destroys everything that is no longer serving our evolution, and more, and importantly, in the wake of this sacred destruction, regeneration and new generation becomes possible. It is not a force that can be controlled or subdued. It is a commitment to ashes, to the fire. Paradoxically, it is a commitment to life, LIFE, in all its glory—light and darkness.

I love how Mascha has written this: “This is sacred terrain. Someone is entering the vestibule to the innermost sanctum. They are immersing themselves in the pain that no one else can cure. No one will be left standing after the fire has raged for long enough.__I want to be close to those who burn like this. I want to kiss these flames, inhale them, and be consumed by this holy wholly fire.” And Mascha, I bow to you that you understand this and articulate this with such beauty and passion.

Look at this world that we are in right now! Energetically, there is about ‘ONE man’ that I know of who actually truly and deeply is capable of honouring and bowing down to the full embodiment of female heart-anger with a true appreciation of how essential female heart-anger is in both restoring and allowing for the evolution of human consciousness. There is about one man who can hold his ground without the cremaster reflex taking over and his penis shrivelling up, without feeling that he needs to ‘fix’ female heart-anger, quell it, subdue it, dominate it, belittle it, ignore it, or better yet, taking some puny temper tantrum himself to get control of it, and thereby the ‘we’ space.…. One man who can hold his space and the ‘we space’ without shrinking and feeling ‘sore afraid’….. On the whole, the wake of this near-universal male resistance to Kali, we have women in cages, dancing in front of deeply impotent, powerless men, we have the rainforest being felled and children burned and starving in a multitude of wars. We have men that will throw over a full-bloodied, alive, feminine soul-beauty, for some tweaked and starved and contorted picture in a magazine, or some bedraggled version thereof. We have women posing in magazines who have sold their life’s blood for the puny crumbs that they will be served at this ridiculous and pathetic table of male dominance and pseudo-power.

And women! What have we done with our heart-anger. We have been taught that it is the supremely unattractive force in our personalities. Our mothers have taught us this, and their mothers taught them before us. This is multi-generational. We have been trained as waitresses at this ridiculous, meagre, paltry banquet. And we have confirmed what we have been taught by our mothers out in the world of men. How many of us have felt the emotional constriction of shame and fear as ‘the man’ takes over the conversation ‘yet again’, the fear of ‘his edginess’, the fear that his is going to drop the china and run rough-shod over the ‘process’ of creating ‘we-space’, of nurturing communion? How many of us have simply ‘stuffed it’, withdrawn, or thought, “men are so smart. All the great intellects are men. It must come with the penis, all these big words.” Just look at all of these threads on this forum….and the way that the II forums are butchered, cut off at the life blood roots. Goodbye Lindsay, goodbye Nomali…. Well, hello! Something far more has just happened that a mere intellectual dismissal—LOVE has been sent packing! I love how the brilliant economist Hazel Henderson has named most of what happens in the world (oh, ever-so overrepresented by the female gender) the ‘love economy’…… the energy that hold the whole thing in place…that underlies that entire infra-structure. And it is FREE! Take it away and you have the dryness of a map, instead of the wetness of the territory. You have bunch of suits, and a bunch of women wearing go-go boots in cages at a conference in the friggin’ desert.

The shadow of the Confounding Knot is the opposite: Male anger/ female fear. As women, we have been trained to not trigger male anger. We know what happens when men get mad. Wives get beaten and killed, wars get started, children get abused, promotions are overlooked, and the dreaded wall of silence and shunning gets erected. Supper becomes unpleasant. All manner of dehumanization becomes possible, all manner of tyranny. Who among us has not been sexually abused, or raped? Who has been relegated to the ranks of wallflower? How many of us have been gauging our power(and lack thereof) by whether or not men get a hard-on when they see us?…Who has not been considered inadequate for the honour of this dance? I, for one, see legions of women who have been side-lined. When I look at these women closely, and I do, I see beauties, shining beauty, strong and stoic, and sometimes raging in this fire, but beauty, restoring and glowing beauty. And the heart-anger, the raging fire, is a balm of the deepest healing, of the most gracious hope and possibility.

Another of Leonard Cohen’s songs comes to mind:

Suddenly the night has grown colder.
The god of love preparing to depart.
Alexandra hoisted on his shoulder,
They slip between the sentries of the heart.

Upheld by the simplicities of pleasure,
They gain the light, they formlessly entwine;
And radiant beyond your widest measure
They fall among the voices and the wine.

It’s not a trick, your senses all deceiving,
A fitful dream, the morning will exhaust.
Say goodbye to Alexandra leaving.
Then say goodbye to Alexandra lost.

Even though she sleeps upon your satin;
Even though she wakes you with a kiss.
Do not say the moment was imagined;
Do not stoop to strategies like this.

As someone long prepared for this to happen,
Go firmly to the window. Drink it in.
Exquisite music. Alexandra laughing.
Your firm commitments tangible again.

And you who had the honour of her evening,
And by the honour had your own restored.
Say goodbye to Alexandra leaving;
Alexandra leaving with her lord.

Even though she sleeps upon your satin;
Even though she wakes you with a kiss.
Do not say the moment was imagined;
Do not stoop to strategies like this.

As someone long prepared for the occasion;
In full command of every plan you wrecked.
Do not choose a coward’s explanation
that hides behind the cause and the effect.

And you who were bewildered by a meaning;
Whose code was broken, crucifix uncrossed.
Say goodbye to Alexandra leaving.
Then say goodbye to Alexandra lost.

Say goodbye to Alexandra leaving.
Then say goodbye to Alexandra lost.

I think Leonard has it right. This is what is at stake. Love is departing, and we are helplessly watching it from the dizzy, wine intoxicated, dinner table. And this is related to the Confounding Knot. As far as I can determine, there are two parts that need to be attended to in the Confounding Knot. As women, we must move fearlessly into our heart anger, into our power, and this in spite of the fact that it is about the most ‘sexually unattractive’ energy that we can put out according to most men. There is ample evidence that our heart-anger ‘scares them shitless’ and they will not react favourably. We will be walking alone for some time, scorned and shunned by the very men that might love us if they actually did their own work. It is sad and lonely, but putting up with this totally crappy, chicken-shit male behaviour for another second is a second too long….

And men, (like it or not your card has been called): YOU must do an honest, and fearless inventory of your fear– MALE FEAR and the damage that you have wrought as you have attempted to avoid this FEAR and your feelings of inadequacy and incompetence. You need to do this without BLAMING women, without claiming that we are the cause of your fear, without claiming that if we were sweeter or smaller or less ferocious, you would not be shrinking as you are. It is time to heal and open the first chakra and then keep on going. Our survival depends on it!
As Leonard writes for you:
“As someone long prepared for the occasion;
In full command of every plan you wrecked.
Do not choose a coward’s explanation
that hides behind the cause and the effect.”
You need to become open and vulnerable and honest. You need to connect your heart up with your balls. You need to address the thousands of years of cultural misogyny. You need to get into the fire and feel the flames. THE PAIN. You need to take the lead in your own life, learn what it means to embody Shiva. You need to find the heart-mind courage to ask Shakti to dance.

As far as I can tell, this is the frontier, the place where if we don’t get it figured out, and soon, this experiment in evolutionary consciousness will conclude itself. Which of course, means that something else will happen, it is just that none of us will have done our best, and none of our children will be around to witness.

Re: Integral Women

OMG Jane

You've done it again.

Just when I think everything is alright, under control, you tear away a layer in my disguise and I see/hear/feel the rage inside me.

How many of us have felt the emotional constriction of shame and fear as ‘the man' takes over the conversation ‘yet again', the fear of ‘his edginess', the fear that his is going to drop the china and run rough-shod over the ‘process' of creating ‘we-space', of nurturing communion? How many of us have simply ‘stuffed it', withdrawn, or thought, “men are so smart. All the great intellects are men. It must come with the penis, all these big words.”

Me.

As women, we have been trained to not trigger male anger. We know what happens when men get mad. Wives get beaten and killed, wars get started, children get abused, promotions are overlooked, and the dreaded wall of silence and shunning gets erected. Supper becomes unpleasant. All manner of dehumanization becomes possible, all manner of tyranny. Who among us has not been sexually abused, or raped? Who has been relegated to the ranks of wallflower? How many of us have been gauging our power(and lack thereof) by whether or not men get a hard-on when they see us?…Who has not been considered inadequate for the honour of this dance?

Me

I didn't 'get' Mascha's post, now I do.
What do I do with this? My question.

Juliee

Re: Integral Women

Dear all

I have been away for a week, so thank you for the e-mail drawing attention to this and the invitation to come and play. I had a 4.30 am flight so have been up all night. I don't want to say more now than well, I am here and looking forward to this, which feels in some ways long overdue. My response to the e-mail was “The oxytocin army is on the march!” That's how I feel and it's high damn time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Back soon when I have had time to read the thread properly

Liz

Re: Integral Women

Riveting. I’ve read every word. What a space this is!

I guess I need to sit with this, because I’m wordless at the moment. Thank you all so much.

Liz

Re: Integral Women

Yay Nicole, Juliee, Jane, and Tiki-Liz! I'm stoked to see you joining in. Too much energy rising inside to be coherent right now, whhooo…

Can you feel the wave?

Re: Integral Women

I certainly felt it!!
The clarity and insight shared in this thread is blowing me away. I'm wondering though, like Julee, “What do I do with this?”. To personally walk the talk, expect integrity, set boundaries; does get very lonely, and very frustrating. I have recently relegated myself to the sidelines (once again!) because I'm weary of the available dancing partners. We are attempting to influence deeply ingrained cultural, behavioral and psychological structures on both sides. However, I hereby recommit to acknowledge and integrate my own anger and fear, to hold that space for others, and to actively encourage recognition and expression of the sacred feminine and the sacred masculine. Working with abused women does give me a wonderful opportunity to support and empower a few souls in their journey to wholeness. One, small step at a time for us all. Thank you, integral sisters, for your fierceness and fortitude.

Much love to each and every one of you,
Chris

Re: Integral Women

Hi everyone

To paraphrase Frans:

Go take a peek at the Integral Feminine thread, if you haven't already had time yet. Wonderous (sp?) things are unfolding.

Love Juliee

Re: Integral Women

INtegral Wonders of the World…..

I am speechless, tongue tied….. but energetically HIGH, swirling whirling, in deepest gratitude and dizzing awe, what treasures each of you are and offering!  Unbelievably unique yet incredibly resonant….  I am simply going to bask actively and allow my words or gifts to bubble forth and bring to the soiree.

with ylang ylang incense burning,
~ Stacy

Re: Integral Women

Dear Woman,
The beautiful, strong, intelligent, and Loving female energy is refreshing. All this activity here speaks for itself (including mine).
Deep Love & Sweet Peace

Re: Integral Women

Its amazing really.  All this fuel was building and just that quick a light is tossed in and the fire rages so strong it begins to consume all around it.

From the deepest part of my being I am wading through my own experience and looking for the pieces of me I have left behind.  I am not so much interested in making men (and their experiences) wrong as much as I am working to set myself in balance.

It seems the POD is all a flame…. and here we are tending and fueling the fire.

I can stand behind you and peek into your lens through my own lense, I will never see what you see, want what you want or seek what you seek. 

Today, I smile and sit with another introduction to who you are and who I am.

Re: Integral Women

Awesome. Jane wrote a manifesto. I've been reading it just now, again, for the third time. And I will come back to it, I expect, many more times.

I love that the women here aren't driven to reach for  'solutions' yet to all the things that have been said. There is no rush to offer conclusions. Just “sitting with”… absorbing… appreciating… feeling  into whatever arises because of this gathering. This must be very unusual. I didn't even know I longed for it on an online forum, of all places, to have a pause after the first wave crashed, a silence we also share and communicate – also… also… being the key words here. Not “either / or”. But “both / and neither.”

Chris said: “I'm wondering though, like Juliee, “What do I do with this?”

 I don't know either… Just savor this? I sincerely want to feel everything, so that my feelings can grow up; one day to become as mature and agile as my intellect. Most everyone's mental development has so far outpaced their emotional capacities, we have become the most dangerous species to walk this earth ever. An ancient rainforest tribe whose name I forgot calls us “the younger brother”- the white wo/man who went insane because he thinks he knows everything better but, in fact, has forgotten how to feel and how to simply be, and in his madness he will come to destroy his older brother. This is their prophecy.
Oh, yes, and the elders of this ancient tribe have already forgiven us.

M

Re: Integral Women

Hi Juliee and everyone,

The most recent issue 37 of What is Enlightenment about “Woman” came to my attention through this blogpost by whitewave.
Among other things, she writes:

There is a very real distinction between the relationship to form from Wilber's crew and that relationship from Cohen's crew.  Cohen sees the solution to women's stuckness as involving some kind of non-identification with the form of “woman”.  Wilber's crew is more fully embracing the entire package - both non-identification as well as identification. 

I have “smelled” this distinction for years now, and am EXTREMELY relieved to find that I am not alone, nor “wrong”.  I see how and why Cohen is doing what he is doing.  But - to put it bluntly - he is using a certain aspect of form without acknowledging it and at the same time wishes he could help people escape from it, but can't as long as he's unconscious about this.  I can see why he doesn't want to acknowledge it, but he is necessarily trapping himself and his students in a vicious cycle of Shadow Boxing. 

The amusing irony is that he is a man and a teacher.  And his women students are going to respond instinctively to him in such a way that they will be trying to please him.  

Now, I don't necessarily want to get back into the whole Andrew Cohen wrangle which was such a long tangled thread here.
But it bothered me that his approach to enlightenment or freedom from ego, for women, seems to depend on us disidentifying with at least a part of our feminine identity. I was amused by the way that he and his women followers (including his wife) talked of how helpful it was that he had this “objective” approach to their “problem” because he is a man, but no where did I see him seeking out a women's “objective” approach to the men in the group.

Re: Integral Women

Whitewave’s blog is interesting. So at some point, “objective” has come to mean—what?—unfeeling? Purely male agency? Instead of simply taking some subject and making it an object, men have some sort of monopoly on objectivity. Well, I can see that dissociation and objectification might get confused. What, then, is feminine objectification confused as? Trivia, or illogic, perhaps? I feel like I have a bit of something, but not complete understanding. i might have to go read that whole blog post, but jesus, y’all have been prolific while i’ve been trying to live my life!

Liz

Re: Integral Women

Eh! I haven't had time to read Whitewave's blog either - or the rapidly mushrooming posts on all the related threads here, goodess help!

But, hey girls, I still want to share some of the ripple effects with you. One of the most engaged men on this pod sent a message of joy this morning.

He said:
_______________________________________
Love on the pod

Hi,

Amazing how things can liven up all of a sudden, huh?

Love

______________________________________

Re: Love on the pod

 

It's the wave

wheeee space is the most challenging to surf, eh? But so rewarding when we can hold hands and do that thang we each uniquely do together sometimes. It is my cutting edge frontier since I'm already doin' fine alone.

Love and gratitude for you, too.

M

Re: Integral Women

I keep asking myself this question because obviously I haven't even come close to understaning what the answer means for me.  What does it mean (to me) to be an integral woman?

What I have found so far is, I am both easier to get along with and harder to live with,  I am balanced and yet at times so vast I seem to fit in no space I have found,  my words somehow have less meaning to me and more meaning to others (except for a few integral folks ;P )  I stray from extremes yet stand firm in my pathway to my growth and everytime I think I am on to something my world spins and I once again become disoriented.

How does all of this information, this map, how does it translate to me…. as a woman… to my gender.

on Whitewaves blog she quoted Sophia Diaz

We want to help women cultivate a profound trust of the good, the true, and the beautiful that is inherent in a woman's heart, to bring out the vulnerable part of us from which all our energy comes…  So we're basically talking about something that is invisible because it is so present all the time...”

I have this consistent wonderment at the masculine need to disect the nuances of something that is there all the time.  Why talk about what IS?  Why not talk about what to do with it or how it affects your actions or your relationships?  But to talk about what is?  I guess Sophia's words helped me go one more step to answering my question…… to be an integral woman is to share my natural being freely with out need for explaination.

Re: Integral Women

Gina I really like this:

to be an integral woman is to share my natural being freely with out need for explaination

I've been wrestling with my earlier question - “what do i do with this now?”. And i think I've come to the same answer you have. And it just seems to have happened for me on this forum. I can't understand what I was soooo afraid of before, but it was real at the time.

I'm loving what I'm seeing, hearing and feeling. Your instigation of this thread has started a chain reaction, have you seen the awesome sharing going on in the integral Men's thread? It brings tears to my eyes. And to have the privilege of being able to hear all that is just such an honour.

And Jane, you let me see what I wasn't letting myself see (I'd had glimpses from others of your postings but I quickly drew the curtain back over the rage) but now I've seen it, I can let it go. The hurt is in the past for me; childhood, teens, twenties, thirties. I think Stacy has a point, with age (and a little development!) there is less hurt because I know more/better but it is so hard to let go of the hurt from before. And now I've said hello to it, let it know I know it, I can now feel what I knew intellectually - it was a product of where we were all at. I knew my Mum just wanted me to be succcessful so I had more control over my own destiny - but in doing so she took over my destiny! I know the man who stole my work, when I was fresh out of Uni in my first job, and claimed it as his own was scared and felt success was a limited resource and so had to take it as his own. There are other takings, too personal for here but I can let them go.

My next visible step (and who knows what the invivsible ones are going to be?) is the Women's ILP week, if I can maintain this sharing my natural being freely.

Liz I like the idea of taking this further with some gender related workshops next summer when we all get together.

And everyone else, just thanks for being here.

Mascha, luuuurv the wave.

Juliee

Re: Integral Women

Over on the Integral Men’s thread Teacup asks, “I’ve often heard women say that Integral is too theoretical, abstract and intellectual. I don’t mind that kind of thing, so if it’s not that, what is it about integral theory that attracts you?”

Here is an answer of sorts:
There are patterns that have been largely invisible and have been lived by rote, and have been holding us in an unworkable paradigm. It is not that where we have gotten to up until now is all ‘terrible’, it just is not working anymore. We need a continuation of the evolution of consciousness to survive. “the problems from one level cannot be solved at the same level that produced them.”

Integral Theory did not start out as a theory for me. I traveled the territory without a map, brailling along in a confounding and often tragic mode, and finally figuring out on my own that something was rotten in the state Denmark. I assumed the stance of a flatlander and then, eyes wide open, I went walking in the mountains and valleys. What a surprise! I don’t know how long it took for my cognitive dissonance to wear off, for me to lose my rose-coloured glasses, for me to adjust to peering into dark and scary places, but I had to do this. I HAD to do this. I have written about this before, my adult experience has been working in an aboriginal community, rife with addictions. I stumbled upon this community when I was 28 years old, and was spewed out when I was 42. Indeed, I was fired on the front page of the Ottawa Citizen National newspaper. “She is just another outsider trying to tell us what to do.” That was my integral training!

Then, without the words, the articulation of the experience, but with a huge anger and incredulity at how old patterns were being twisted and turned, manipulated and rendered near-evil by the governments both of Canada and the 1st Nation’s people, I started watching and witnessing. Almost any move was bound to turn up ashes and sadness. Eventually, Ken Wilber’s books came into view. Ken Wilber spoke about depth perception. The confounding circular map, the worn out modes of discourse, suddenly became a spiral map. And it all made sense to me on some familiar level. I felt relief, if not from the pain of the circumstances in which I was embedded, at least by knowing that I could not solve the riddle, and certainly not from the battlefield… but that the beginnings of a solution were at hand…. Breathe in, breathe out.

After being so green that I must have had spinach in my teeth at all times, and then becoming almost ‘blue in the face’ from frustration and sadness, from the relentless deaths of young people caused by the corruption and the denial of ‘every possible responsible party’—governments, parents, addictions workers, social workers, band chiefs, elders, me—I finally could recognize and accept that people and cultures are not born egalitarian, that there are essential stages that must be evolved through, that pouring green money into red and purple infra-structures is naïve at best and apocalyptic at worst. And that this did not mean that I was relegating myself as a defender of a police state, where ‘might is right’ and the ‘he who dies with the most toys wins’….that there was an integral message that both honoured the need for structure and allowed for a voice that could speak out and say, “Enough is enough. People are hurting and dying. There is something beyond this place. What is working is not working. We don’t need to pretend, or be frightened. We do not have to cling to sinking ships. There is more to this than defending the charnel fields.”

For me this is the integral voice emerging. It is a voice that does NOT exclude aboriginal wisdom, or the eternal feminine, or the authentic masculine. It is not a parrot of all the industrial forces that clamored to begin liquidating the land resources as a means to co-opt power and feed greedy egoic engines. The integral voice is a voice that is open, and vulnerable. It speaks its best approximation of truth, knowing that ‘truth’ is a perspective, AND some perspectives are more inclusive than others…. My truth is my perspective of my particular landscape. My voice is witnessing and reporting on my perspective of my landscape. And though it is not the only perspective, and it is an important perspective too. I need to speak my truth without fear, knowing that My truth is truer than some, and my truth is not as true as others. I can learn, others can learn from me.

Also my ability to be an honest witness and a reporter of what I witness is embedded in my ability to do my own shadow work. “The fabric of my life is the cloth with which I must polish the lens of my own perception.” And more and very importantly, this landscape is also a soulscape, a soulscape that stretches deep into mysterious recesses of time, where energy patterns have been dancing together in great archetypical splendor since the whole ballgame shimmered into reality. This adventure is awesome. Awesome. That I am here, that you are here, that we are here…. This is just unbelievable. That most of us have not woken up to the most amazing surprise of our own existence, and that most of us who have, forget this surprise moment to moment on a daily basis, this is a most confounding knot as well.

The short answer to why I am interested in integral theory, is I need some help with words…. Words can soothe souls, untangle confounding psychic Gordian knots, shine light, elucidate….. And even more amazingly, words hold the colours of the imagination. We paint our future with words. They allow us to look closely, to identify our place in all of this flux and flow. They give us the freedom to choose. We are ‘the word made flesh’…articulating stardust….. And we are building, co-creating, this road as we travel. And, basically, (just like a woman!) I want more Love! More love, here there and everywhere…. I want to be fearless, I want to see perfectly.

Re: Integral Women

Beautiful, Jane – !

And my brief addition in answer to Mr. TC's question: I don't mind theory, abstraction, and the intellect either – even if I'm not a theoretician, I actually enjoy these things. [Added after edit: DUH, I don't think “theoretician” is even a word! I mean to say, “even if I'm not a theorist.” I over-compleximafied mahself …]. And when I hear women say that Integral is “too theoretical” – I interpret it not as a disparaging of theory in itself, but a desire for more balance between the abstract and the concrete, the mind and the heart, agency and communion, etc., etc. Isn't the integral vision about “integrating mind, body, and spirit in self, culture, and nature?”

Moreover, I especially appreciate many of Ken Wilber's books and dialogues because of his ability to make integral theory accessible to general readers / audiences. Sometimes complaints about theory really have to do with how complex and convoluted the language can become. And there is nothing wrong with high-level complexity, either – it's just that theory needn't be confined to the post-graduate-academic-specialist-megageek realms.

Mary

Re: Integral Women

Mary, Jane thank you for addressing this because I was thinking about answering the question too and realized it was directly connected to what I have been trying to communicate.

I love reading Ken's work and feel as though the Integral Map has provided me with a freedom to explore at levels (and lines ha) that I never thought possible.  The 'glass ceiling' was blasted off my thinking and I was some how released into being able to go/be/do things I have yet to even conceive.

I enjoy listening to both Ken's dialog, reading theory in books and on the POD and going to my meet up which at times combines theory with more 'real' life practices.  I am not personally a theorist or an academic so my interest in drilling down to the exact meanings and origins of any word (witness for example) does not capture my attention for very long.  Can I sit and listen?   yes, but then I begin to feel like I am being put in a corner…… and nobody puts Baby in a Corner :)

Re: Integral Women

Okay, Gina, you've provoked me to insert a Chick Flick moment …

“Nobody puts Baby in a corner”

From a movie I'm embarrassed to admit I love … (the lip-synching at the end is a bit much).

But – Girls just wanna have Dance.

Mary

Re: Integral Women

Mary:  Isn't the integral vision about “integrating mind, body, and spirit in self, culture, and nature?”

Word.

For me, it's all about becoming more of everything. Cultivating the ability to move freely across the widest range of terrains. Becoming more flexible, ever more fluid, in every conceivable way. I have tasted what it is like to move effortlessly between the many realms of being. And I know what it's like to be stuck in a narrow role, maintaining fixed positions, and - god forbid - insisting on defending those! But the attraction to freedom always wins out, and it has often compelled me to act as a “destabilizer of the status quo” in groups or personal relationships – though, that too can become just another trap, where one is playing a compulsive role.

Do y'all think that freedom is a higher value than love? And by “love” I mean the love that binds, that seeks communion, harmony, sticking together, rather than universal Love . I sometimes wonder…

M

Re: Integral Women

Hey beautiful women

I have been feeling the urge to pop my self ( I was going to say 'head' as the saying goes but its not quite right!) in and say hello and say that I miss connecting with you all. 

Mascha a special word to you – we never did quite resolve our conflict those many weeks ago and I have since then struggled with letting it go.  I feel I can do that now :). Hallo Mascha…

Its been difficult to keep up with the five threads birthed by your starting Gina.  Much honest courageous moving self expression is going on.  I love it.  The exploration of femininity and masculinity is one of my loves in this lifetime.

Where I am now is that I have been graced with the presence of an integral man. Our connection is helping me to see the pain of men; helping to embrace more and express more the pain of women; and see more how we cannot do without each other, we women and men.

I feel there are layers and layers of heroine-ism and grief in my heart and body – the experience of women now, and those who have come before me.  Having an Indian background connects me to the sometimes very horrible plight of women there -especialy village women — and more so now the plight of men. I was listening to an indian song the other day.  I love the way the men sing, but the women often sound harsh, forced and overly stylised to me.  Their voices are shrill, within a narrow range, and start sounding sharp in the upper notes.  I thought this mirrors the narrow range that they are being pressured to move within.  A kind of put on femininity that disempowers them side saddle on the horse or worse still like bound feet; and yes the suppressed rage and energy underneath.

While those knowings matter a great deal to me where I am now I am seeing with far more depth the plight of men - especially men who are not in control of society.  To be honest I was brought up in and colluded an environment where it was ok for men to get more kicks and to be a man and bear it. it has been a great heart opening for me to sense deeper into thebody and soul of men and see their vulnerability and their power and what is happening to that in our society. And yes, how one thing leads to another – cascading persecutions of women and men to each other.

Will stop here for now, it feels good to say hallo. 

Even though I have been “away” for a while Im still in for our lovefest next year…

Love and a curtsy ( yes! not a bow this time :))) to all of you
Gitanjali

Re: Integral Women

Dear Ones,

What has begun here encourages me, and I am drinking in the courage and insight being shared. I also feel provoked in some ways by this and the other threads, and feel that I don't want to say much while I am working through my reactive emotions and still trying to climb the walls out of my uniperspectival rut.

I wanted to give a head's up though that there is an article that looks promising in the next issue of What is Enlightenment? called “What is Liberation for Women Today?”
I haven't read it yet. So far I've only listened to an audio clip of a dear teacher of mine (Leslie Temple Thurston) who is one of the many interviewees in the article. There is a preview of the article here, and many audio clips of the wise lovelies sharing their answers to that question.

Love and gratitude,
Lauren

Re: Integral Women

Hello Lovelies….

Lauren:  …and feel that I don't want to say much while I am working through my reactive emotions and still trying to climb the walls out of my uniperspectival rut.

I welcome your sharing if you choose to do so!  I've been feeling my edges of my perspective with all these threads on men, women, wounding, gender, etc.  I find reactivity inviting and I wonder what might come from sharing the 'archeaological digging'… so to speak <3

Thanks for sharing the WIE link and LTT audio.  Off the cuff, what struck me were the blurbs and audio describing the next step for women's liberation as equality.  Again, with all the threads going on here…. I guess I feel that equality should be included in the mix but it shouldn't be the beacon.  I would suggest an idea like accessibility and finding and claiming the power, the leverage of our expression of liberation.  Perhaps its my current reflection of looking at things like a puzzle:  and that we can each hold a place in the grand scheme of things but we aren't equal.  And there is power in that inequality…. maybe I'm just thinking “distribution channel”…. :-O  or it could be that my personal overwhelm is leading me (proding me) to lean on and need others (for their offerings, to do what they currently do best) which allows me to be more resourced and accessible with my gifts.

Oh…. I'm sensing trouble…. I am not saying that we skip or nix the equality thing!  I've been fortunate to be able to live times, contexts, moments of equality.  I'm saying that perhaps equality is a flashlight but the greater light at the end of the tunnel is a defined accessibility and determination of where women's liberating expression can truly serve and blossom.

Did I make any sense?  Since I am typing as I am thinking/sensing/ processing… feel free to question, fill out, add on, realign.. or not :-)

~Stacy

Re: Integral Women

Hello Stacy-Dakini and Gitanjali, welcome to this thread!

See, I feel the need to validate everyone. Not only that, I feel we have to acknowledge everything  – every angle, every conceivable aspect of the issues we're discussing in this, the only thread for women in the history of these forums. And that is a problem. Actually, it sucks. I don't have to do that with individual writers in PM exchanges, let alone in real life conversations. I can tune into people and be very bold in highlighting only one single side of an issue  without self-conscious fears of offending someone and creating a backlash for simply mentioning what it's like from the feminine side of the fence. (Ooh, someone is going to point out that there is no fence! :-p)

Look at Stacy's post: ”Oh…. I'm sensing trouble…. I am not saying that we skip or nix the equality thing!  I've been fortunate to be able to live times, contexts, moments of equality.  I'm saying that perhaps equality is a flashlight but the greater light at the end of the tunnel is a defined accessibility and determination of where women's liberating expression can truly serve and blossom. Did I make any sense?”

What I've underlined is pretty much all that can be said at this point IMO. We've decided to fall silent again…. and, yes (see, here I go, covering all bases), this thread also has become quiet because we don't have a lot of time to post, and because we can't do real hot-button issue work online. But the reason beneath all those I just mentioned has something to do with the fear of losing communion by speaking painful, personal, partial truths without fear of retribution.

M

Re: Integral Women

Mascha:  Look at Stacy's post: ”Oh…. I'm sensing trouble…. I am not saying that we skip or nix the equality thing!  I've been fortunate to be able to live times, contexts, moments of equality.  I'm saying that perhaps equality is a flashlight but the greater light at the end of the tunnel is a defined accessibility and determination of where women's liberating expression can truly serve and blossom. Did I make any sense?”

… yep, I'm busted ;-)  …< jokingly said!>

More seriously…. here's my deal:  my strongest modes (nearly equal) are visual, kinesthetic (felt sense) then auditory.  I rely very heavily on visual and felt sense when it comes to intial interactions/ getting to know someone.  I'm an observer (introvert) first and then get involved.  Of course some of this is based in best determining if, and then how to participate, including how to show up, for the group… (otherwise i'll do something else).

With regards to this forum:  I haven't met a one of you in person.  So I feel blind, deaf and dumb or at least my hands tied to some extent.  Furthermore, its an environment in which I need to just step in and participate… and often times it feels discordant, or interruptive, like cutting in on a dance floor with the rhythm and flow already jiving.  And understandably, the dancing discourse doesn't necessarily envelope and adjust to the new participation…. aaaawk-ward :-)

So for me, my practice is to initiate, become clear why I want to participate and understand what I might want to get out of it, and see if my comments might serve others (beside myself).  Oftentimes I need to remind myself of the limitations of this kind of communication, and really keep a watchful eye on my projections, insecurities and unrealistic expectations or imaginings.  An excellent practice because, again, I can't rely on my good ole visual and felt sense anchors. (Loved the thread faceless posters.. thx all!)

Lastly, the forum is a gem for intellectual and theorhetical learnings…. i am frequently in awe at the dialoging that occurs here.  I also know that my fluency is still challenged, and although I feel like I can understand, I still find it incredibly challenging (fumbling) to communicate lucidly and to even make formations coherently in my mind.  (see, i think i just did it ;-)


Mascha:  …fear of losing communion by speaking painful, personal, partial truths without fear of retribution.

Partial truths… snags me, although the others are there too.  My insecurites flare up when there is NO mention or engagement.  If I'm not observant, I can fall into the “its soooo off, its not worth mentioning”…as they  “humph, and turn to each other to keep the conversation going”….. again, my imaginings and my ownership of handling such silliness.

Because I am typing this into the unknown, a cyber pod zaadzpace… with my limited and short-lived knowingness of its participants… i wonder…

IN being,
~ Stacy

Re: Integral Women

Hello Stacy   

Yes, it can feel as  aaaawk-ward as an aardvark or two sometimes




…double aardvark. We need to do more for visual and kinesthetic types and all those who just want to have wild, rapacious sex. No!!! just kidding.

Just curious, why did you love the Faceless Posters thread so much?


Stacy:   My insecurites flare up when there is NO mention or engagement.

Because I am typing this into the  unknown, a cyber pod zaadzpace… with my limited and short-lived knowingness of its participants… i wonder…

Same here. What are we expecting to find and get out of this? :-p

From Berlin with love,

M

Re: Integral Women

My insecurites flare up when there is NO mention or engagement.  If I'm not observant, I can fall into the “its soooo off, its not worth mentioning”…as they  “humph, and turn to each other to keep the conversation going”….. again, my imaginings and my ownership of handling such silliness.

At risk of doing what a certain poster sneers at:
 
me too!

An exchange with Frans,Gina and possibly Mascha (can't remember the thread now - the one that prompted the group dynamics thread I think) helped me with this one. Words to the effect of - just be yourself, let your voice be heard, so what if you're ignored, that's just ego talking, eventually some of what you have to say percolates through.

Lots of partials start to add up to a whole eventually.

Juliee

Re: Integral Women

Lots of partials start to add up to a whole eventually.

Thanks Juliee!  I love this gem…. 

~ Stacy

Re: Integral Women

Rejection, Glombing and Other Love Difficulties

I have been thinking about rejection as a confounding element that hinders the development of open, honest vulnerable relationships. In another of the gender threads, there was some discussion about ‘who has the power to reject whom’, ‘who then feels rejected’. A summary of the sentiments on the thread sort of go like this: Men feel actively rejected by women who do not respond to their advances, (and I assume this is a feeling of powerlessness) yet women are passively rejected if they are ignored and subsequently left as wallflowers sidelined on the metaphorical dance floor (this is also a feeling of powerlessness). The world’s most beautiful women would appear to have the ‘power to reject’ because of their physical attractiveness, and the men lined up around the block to court them, while women who are not ‘beautiful’ are never courted in the first place, are already ‘passively rejected’, and therefore do not have the ‘power to reject’ as they have nobody lined up to reject. Nobody wants them. ‘Even unattractive men reject unattractive women.’ Turtles all the way down. The feeling of powerlessness is one that assumes that the ‘outside, external circumstances of the world, or other’ actually dictate one’s internal sense of power. Our vulnerability is directly related to the degree in which we have an internal or external locus of power. Have we moved into our own centre, or are we still at the mercy of the world around us?

In short, rejection is about fear. This is true whether one is the rejectee or the rejector. The fear is pretty simple. It is based on a belief that authenticity will not be possible, that the relationship will require me, you, the other to lie and to pretend, in effect, to go missing in action. Anne Wilson Schaeff says in one of her books… “You can be honest all the time, or you can be nice all the time, but you can’t always be honest and nice all the time together.” Perpetual niceness requires dishonesty. It requires the repression of basic truths. Perpetual honesty requires facing some unpleasant truths, truths that might be challenging and difficult to articulate, might ‘hurt the other person’s feelings’ (with all of those ensuing consequences that most of us would prefer to avoid), might bring us face to face with our own projections and unpleasant shadowed truths about ourselves.

Practicing ‘truth in relationships’ can be a bona fide practice to see how present and truthful any of us can stay in any relationship. The intention is not primarily to find a mate, or ‘make the relationship work’. The intension is to practice ‘honesty’ and see what happens. It is an amazingly simply and simultaneously scary practice. When can we act truthfully from our centre, and when do we ‘run for the hills’? How can we learn to stay present and act from our best approximation of honesty? When do we start denying what is happening in the relationship for the sake of equanimity, and an outward appearance of peace or security? When are we hedging our chances of something better coming along, and living from a poverty consciousness, or an ingrained belief that ‘this is as good as it gets’? When are we functioning simply from the fear of being dumped or abandoned? When do we settle, and bite our tongue, accepting what is unacceptable, rather than risk both the possibility of true growth in our relationships, and the possible of the demise and ending of a relationship?

My sister once gave me a badge that says: “settle for more”…. Settle for more. We should ALL settle for more, and then KEEP settling for more…. more truth, more presence, more vulnerability…. From our potential partners, yes, AND most importantly, from ourselves. This is about fearless living.

The most confounding issue of all in relationships, especially at early stages for women, is when we actually do the impossible and reject ourselves. This happens when we re-work our wants ‘to not rock the boat’, ‘to not scare off our suitors’, ‘to do whatever it takes to not appear “needy”’. It is the contortions of reworking ourselves to be what ‘we think’ somebody else will want. It requires all manner of cognitive dissonance and splendid impossible acrobatic manoeuvres. On the other hand, it is an entirely liberating breakthrough to envision what it is I want, and to learn speak from my centre, with confidence and compassion. It is a great liberating transition in women, when we have differentiated to the extent to be able to recognize and heal the desire to meld onto my Beloved, the desire to replace personal autonomy for ‘wanting what he wants’, the abnegation of personal power in return for ‘the conditions (his love at all costs) that will secure the relationship to proceed into the forever after’.

In order for us to proceed through this stage of differentiation, to a place where our own autonomy is not up for grabs, we have to get used to being rejected by the men we so much believe we want to love us. We have to be able to take the pain of rejection, the pain of disappointment, the pain of being overlooked on the dance floor. We have to step out of those ridiculous high-heeled shoes and be prepared to dance alone, to our own rhythms, to our own lead, with our own open and vulnerable heart.

I have a book, “Loving without losing yourself”, by Bonnie Krepps. It deconstructs the romantic hoopla, and looks at really what happens when women at pre-differentiated stages ‘fall in love’. She claims, and I agree, that metaphorically, we get taken to a castle where we get to live out our lives in denial of our authentic selves and deepest truths. “Enough!” she says. We have to find the courage to differentiate, to speak our truths, to embody our autonomy, indeed to love ourselves, to value ourselves. Indeed, this is ALL any of us really have to offer to any relationship—our true, authentic, autonomous selves! This autonomy is a prerequisite to being able to even consider engaging in a healthy, inter-dependent relationship of any kind. We cannot offer what we don’t have. We cannot bring to any relationship what we don’t have, what we don’t value, what we don’t love.

“Glombing”. Oh, I know this is not really a word in the dictionary, but it rhymes with ‘bombing’. Glombing is a felt sense that ‘autonomy’ of self or other has been digested and destroyed in ‘service’ to the relationship. It is the equivalent of death on a stick. It is when somebody attaches like a sarcophagus onto our energy fields and appears to be able to suck the life and spontaneity out of us; when somebody falls into our lives and makes plans into the future that have no bases in mutual reciprocity; it is a mooching house guest that will not get off the living room couch and get a life; it is a space invader who will not leave breathing room; it is a mountain of hope and expectation that is dropped like a lead balloon onto a connection that is based on projection and neediness. With glombing, there is a sense of suffocation, a paling of truth. This is where the term ‘coyote ugly’ comes in…. rather that confront the issue of glombing; most of us would rather chew off our right arm to escape the trap. Glombing is a reality. And with it there is fear of glombing, FOG, (fear of being glombed onto, FOBGO) and fear of being (or being seen to be) a glomber, FOBAG.

I tell ya, ‘glombing’ is a real tar baby.

The only way out of all of these relationship entanglements is to choose as a matter of course the freedom to continue individually discovering my deepest truth, to choose this freedom over the fear of glombing, or being glombed, over the avoidance of rejection, and the avoidance of the pain of rejection.

And all of this does NOT create a dramatic life of torrentially connected narcissus/echo dyads. Often it may seem a lonely path. Loneliness and boredom are also travelling companions that I need to get very cosy with…. (Oh, and what I don’t do to avoid those!) Still there is Love and Truth on this path of freedom. I know this. There may come a time when I walk in step with my Beloved in the same direction, or it may be that I am forever walking towards a vision that I cannot quite feel except in odd moments, that I cannot quite see except with a hazy, sideways glance.…. this path is not for the faint of heart. “Abandon all HOPE”. Regardless, “That which I am seeking, is also seeking me.” This is a basic truth of the universe. As any of us go deeper into the depth of our own personal discovery, we may not find a lot of travelling companions. This is a basic truth too, and a test on this road. Is it too lonely, is our heart too broken, are we willing to take what comes along, are we willing to settle for less than our deepest hearts desire.…. I am not the president of the Labrador Spinsters Association for nothing. Like my sister, I say, ‘settle for more’. I love that Sufi saying: “Freedom is the ability to have or not have what you want and still keep your heart open.” And again, I think of Rumi, his words something like: ‘we do not discover the Beloved along the road, but realize we have been in each other all along.’

Re: Integral Women

Hi Jane,

On the other hand, it is an entirely liberating breakthrough to envision what it is I want, and to learn speak from my centre, with confidence and compassion.

This is the center of where I am right now.  Breaking through my own identifications of what I am, who I am and who I would be if I stopped being who I am.

I went dancing again yesterday, all the conversations we are having here which have seeped into other areas of my life were in my head when I began my dance.  Slowly the unwinding of my gender, my role, my words, my place began to detangle with the beats of the music and the sway of my hips.

There was a moment in those 2+ hours where I was deep inside the lusciousness of my being, where nowhere and everywhere met.  I was standing holding myself present to my body, my soul, my feet, my heart and to all those 'things' of the people dancing with me.  In that moment, I felt a hand touch my back, I was aware of the hand but yet I was so beyond the moment I did not react to it other than it being “a hand”.  I stood there for a time and then the hand began to move around my back and again my response was sort of the objective 'hand' identification but then something changed.  My awareness was brought to who was touching me… why were they touching me…. and what in the world gave them 'permission to touch me. 

Of course once those thoughts hit me I was back into being Gina and I opened my eyes to find a “man” standing behind me.  I was struck so hard by my rage I walked off the floor and stood on the side for a few minutes.  I story that Rick wrote somewhere on the pod came to me about the woman who was being raped and (I would insert the link but I can't find it) not only forgave them but embodied their pain (my interpretation since I can't quote, arg!) and subsequently they became her students.   I stood with my rage for a few moments, felt what I perceived as an energetic rape and then opened my heart to a new understanding. 

Please understand, I did not know this man, I had not spoken to him and barely was aware of him in the dance for the most part.  His actions were similar to actions I have encountered in the past, my view, my lens, put me in a place of victim because I was instantly triggered into not feeling safe.  My trust had been invaded somehow.

Right after this, I walked back on to the dance floor where for the next entire song I danced in front of a group of men who were on the floor winding and wrestling and 'fighting'.  Their dance was mesmerizing to me.  I saw their struggle, their fight and it opened my heart even further. 

I didn't ask if a man would have reacted the same way to that experience, I only asked who am I in this experience and let myself be as authentic as possible.  What I found was in that moment, I was able to be somebody new, something different had shifted in me and my need to lash out toward him had no place inside of me.

You said
This autonomy is a prerequisite to being able to even consider engaging in a healthy, inter-dependent relationship of any kind. We cannot offer what we don't have. We cannot bring to any relationship what we don't have, what we don't value, what we don't love.

I agree! and my level of love was expanded so much further beyond myself in those moments I compared to what it might feel like to be the Divine Mother loving all as if they were my children.  How could I possibly withhold my love?  from him, from myself?  If I contract then I am lost.

Thank you so much (everyone) for sharing who you are this is opening whole new doors to rooms I only dreamed of entering.

in love,

Gina

Re: Integral Women

Gina,
Thank you for your honesty!
Lovely.

Re: Integral Women

Gina, I have read your post over several times in the last few days, and I need to acknowledge it and thank you very much for it. Your conveyance of your interiority during this dance is remarkable and wonderful to read.
I remember once being asked to dance by a man I did not know, had never met before, did not know his name. It was a slow dance, and we were doing the boring circle thing, when the energy shifted and he started kissing, sucking and nuzzling my neck.
“excuse me,” I said, “Did you know you were sucking on my neck and I don’t even know your name?” Oh, dear, abandoned again on the dance floor!… too much consciousness I guess! Still, I love the odd exchanges when people do stay present. I love attempting, no matter how awkward, to see whether anyone will stay present with their interiority, speak from their heart, and talk to me about what is going on…. alas, most often, people are playing what my sister Alison calls, “nicky nicky nine doors”. It is the myth of Eros and Psyche played out yet again, in ordinary archetypical splendour.
It has taken me along time to settle into being brave enough to stay present in these situations, no matter what. In spite of my best intentions, I am often overwhelmed with rage or anger or fear, and I too go missing in action… so then I have to try to stay present with what it means for me to go missing in action….
Thank you for your wonderful post.
love Jane

Re: Integral Women

Thanks Jane,

I started dancing at a very early age and have found it to be a place of connection, power and expression.  It has never really been about dancing with anyone else… I have selfishly kept this passion all to myself and find it difficult to share with anyone.  I have danced with others and love the communion but ultimately, I find it is a solitary place. 

However, I recommend wild abandon every chance you get!

Re: Integral Women

Jane,
Brilliant analysis of glomber dynamics! I think I act poorly with some regularity because of my FOG. Tired of needing to maintain boundaries and be vigilant for the approach of the glomber-on-the-prowl, I have too often opted to close my heart. I want to walk down the street and look people in the eye, acknowledge them as the divine one they are, greet them from that openness in myself. But as someone who has failed too many times to maintain a healthy inner boundary or even understand how to create one, I erect a formidable outer one. “Don't bother,” it says. “I'm not interested. Don't even ask!”

I believe this is skillful means in many environments, but then, when I forget to drop that mode and rigidify in it because it helps me to avoid the harder work of expressing my needs and boundaries to one who CAN hear it but may not want to and who WILL respect it but may direct unpleasant energies my way because they're peeved, well, then I lose the authenticity of my own openness of being, and WE lose the possibility of more connectivity via all manner of honest engagements: healthy play or combat, potentially experienced with warmth, good will, and humor. The acting poorly that I refer to is a failure of compassion. The outward act can be anything and still be skillful: a smile, a touch, a refusal to make eye contact or acknowledge someone's words, a clear NO to someone's touch (see Gina, below), a kick in the balls, a listening ear, a refusal to listen… so long as the appropriate action issues from the glowing discrimination of the present, compassionate heart. Glombers fear true compassion because it will brook no trespass, but glombers can learn perhaps only from truly compassionate “rejection.” (This is not to imply that all invitations to engage or flirtatious or friendly overtures are glombing behaviors.)

“Freedom is the ability to have or not have what you want and still keep your heart open.”
This reminds me of the final words in the movie Kama Sutra (which isn't as tacky as you might think a movie called Kama Sutra might be), spoken by the movie's heroine. Rasa is the name of her teacher:

Knowing love
I allow all things to come and go,
to be as supple as the wind,
and take everything that comes with great courage.
As Rasa would say to me:
“Life is right, in any case.”
My heart is as open as the sky.


Love,
Lauren

Re: Integral Women

Jane, Gina, Lauren great posts! thank you so much.

Glombing is a great word.  I have had a challenge with developing healthy boundaries for as long as I can remember.  Healthy boundaries seem to be the result of deep inner work rather than something that can be achieved on the run.  I've come to  see that when I have my boudary violated and i dont deal with it appropriately, I generally unconsciously violate the other person's boundary – or someoone else's boundary.  And that making closed hearted judgements of a person is actually a subtle boundary violation of them.  I cant right now explain why I feel that but I do.

Much love
Gitanjali

Re: Integral Women

Stones Settled Deep in the Ocean

Sexual attractiveness has always been very frightening for me. As a girl, I was not encouraged to have a voice, nor mentored in what that voice might sound like. What did it mean to have healthy sexual boundaries, and to be sexually attractive, and not utterly vulnerable to being destroyed by the ‘big bad wolf’? What did it mean to be sexually powerful? Choosing to be sexually attractive, and having no means to deal with the consequences seemed to be a positioning between a rock and a hard place. In the helplessness, and shame that ensued, I began to eat uncontrollably. I ate peanut butter, jars of it, on spoons and carrots and celery sticks. It was not that it tasted good, it was that it had a heavy solid stickiness, a plug-like feeling… and there was an insane and hopeless hope that it would relieve me of my torment.

My mother was actually very judgemental, ruthless and cruel to many of the boys that I brought home. ‘Short, awkward, effeminate, gay, illiterate, gawky.’ It was not always in words that these sentiments were conveyed, but they were conveyed all the same. If on the rare occasion, she was impressed by a boy, she would say things like, ‘pull in your stomach,’ “he will drop you like a hot potato”, ‘don’t dress like that’. What she was telling me, on the one hand: ‘these boys are not the ones you choose. They are not good enough.’ and on the other hand: ‘these other men here(the desirables), you must learn to give them what they want, and look good doing it.. it is your only hope. Your only source of power.’ It was perhapstraining for the North American Giesha. It was not formal of course, but it was just as intense. Understandably, I was horrified by the training, and equally horrified by the depth of despair that seemed to linger at refusing the training. “no man worth anything will ever want you. You will never be chosen by a man of your peer.” All of these messages, these subtexts, were delivered to me primarily from my mother, and yet they were supported by most of the women of her generation “You must find a man who can lead, who is as smart as you, who is tall and handsome, and rich, and funny and well-read, but of course, when you do he will never love you like you are, you are not good enough.”

Of course, even as I write the above, I am interpreting my mother’s actions. “judgemental cruel, ruthless”. All of these weapons are weapons spawned from fear, from abandonment, from not-enough-love-in-the world, not-enough-love-for-me. It is interesting how as girls, many of us have been groomed with these tools of disempowerment. The eternal feminine voice, twisted and turned, harsh and brittle, strident and furious. The messages are like this: The only way to win favour at the king’s court is to be perfect, the only way to have power in the king’s court is to be attractive to him. Power comes from the outside of you. Without station and means, you are nothing. You will only be powerful when a man of your equal loves you unconditionally and with utter devotion and acceptance. And yet, You will never be good enough to be unconditionally loved, this will never happen.

I loved my Danish grandmother. I was her favourite. At the same time, she did a terrible thing.
In 1942, my mother was 13. She lived on a farm. My grandparents had been gentry folk in Denmark, my grandfather was heir to a large farm in the south. In a series of extraordinary events, the two of them ran off to Canada, and began a life here, among the farm folk. While no longer the favoured class of people as was their accustom, they continued to live ‘as if’, and with some extraordinary style.
During the war, there were community dances in the dance hall in Inglewood. Soldiers preparing to travel overseas would come to the dances, often in uniform. “Oh, you must love a man in a uniform.” My mother and her younger sisters, her mother and father would go to the dances. My grandmother was beauty in her own right, used to attention and favour with all men. In this, I can only imagine the narcissistic way in which she held her family in check and balance. I can only imagine how all of her daughters were extension of her world, and not entities unto themselves.
On this particular night, at the Inglewood Community Center, there were many tall, handsome soldiers. One in particular caught my grandmother’s eye. By and by, he approached her. She prepared to be asked to dance, puffing up with a certain expectation and power. Instead, he asked if he could have the dance with her daughter, my young mother. My grandmother was furious, a wrath that must have been like the wicked stepmother in Snow White. With no further adieu, mother was hauled back to the farm from the dance. My grandmother forced her to sit in a chair and proceeded to cut off all of my mother’s long and beautiful hair, in bunches and clumps. In the months that followed, my mother wore a kerchief over her head until her hair grew out. The damage appeared to be restored from the outside… This stone was dropped 65 years ago….a stone that fractured the surface, leaving ripples on the water, a stone that settled deep into the depths.

And yet, it is not so special. This is one stone, among a million stones…. it is no wonder if we are generally confounded…all of us, men and women.
Still I love us, I love that we are here, I love that we are showing up as well as we can, that we have not lost our heart or our desire for communion.

Re: Integral Women

I want to quote something I read the other day:


“Another deep structure in women's consciousness that is quite an obstacle to liberation beyond ego has to do with the relationship between sexuality and power. Again, I've tried to imagine what it would be like to be a girl who, when she reaches puberty, suddenly realizes that when she comes into a room, simply by raising her eyebrow or moving her shoulders, she can cause a wave to pass over men. What would it be like to know that you have that kind of capacity to manipulate others? What would it be like to suddenly feel this tremendous power over the other half of the race?…

…Men have physical strength. Women have sexual power. What do men want? Men want sex. When a woman realizes that, she finds her own power. And that's a lot of power to have in this world. Now the sexual impulse is not a problem in and of itself, but it can become problematic in an enlightenment context., because to whatever degree the ego overidentifies with any particular aspect of ourselves, in this case our sexual identity, the personality always distorts. If enlightenment is a natural state or a more authentic way of expressing our humanity, then the sixty-four-thousand-dollar question is: What would be the most natural, most unselfconscious, most authentic way to relate to every aspect of life, including the sexual impulse? In order to find the answer we certainly have to be willing to transcend compulsive identification with that dimension of our own nature. So for a woman to go beyond ego in an enlightenment context, her ego would have to cease to identify with her sexual power. That doesn't mean she'd have to give up her sexuality or her sexual nature, but in order for her to find a completely different way to be herself, her ego, or nacissistic self-sense, would have to give up its attachment to that particular part of her self as a source of power.

Now that is a lot to ask. I've realized that men don't necessarily have to pay such a high price when we're speaking about going beyond ego. For a woman, if her ego has to give up this identification with sexuality as a source of personal power, she's giving up almost everything she has. That's like taking away a soldier's only weapon. If her relationship to life was still fundamentally ego-based, not truly spiritual or soul-based, then she would feel that her source of power was being taken away. And why would a woman want to give that up? But if she's truly committed to taking that next step into a deeper or higher liberation that sets a foundation for a new potential in the evolution of culture, these outdated defense structures have to be transcended.

So this 'new women's liberation' is a project that I've been working very hard on for quite a long time, and I believe that in the last year or so I have acheived a significant victory. I have a group of women I'm working with now who have finally taken that bold leap to come together beyond ego. I cracked this thing, for the first time really, last summer, and since that time, these women have started to simply delight in each other's company in a way that is not the kind of thing women usually do. It sounds very simple, but it's actually quite a profound shift. Women can share all kinds of personal places and spaces together, but to simply delight in being together in a profound level of trust and transparency and impersonal care is very rare indeed, as far as I know.”



Hmmmm.

Later today or early tomorrow, whenever I can get back to the computer, I'll post the author. Leave it a mystery for now… or perhaps you may have read it too, and you know…

I'll share some of my responses in another post.

Re: Integral Women

I have many thoughts to share, but I'll start with this.

He says:
Men have physical strength. Women have sexual power. What do men want? Men want sex. When a woman realizes that, she finds her own power. And that's a lot of power to have in this world.


Men want sex. When a woman realizes that, she finds her own power.
What an impoverished notion, that this is women's only experience of our “own power.”

There is some truth that attractive women (or attractive adolescent girls) discover a heady power when they become aware of how men respond to their physical and sexual beauty. And it is certainly true that at lower levels of development in a culture that profoundly fears and devalues the Feminine, this outward form of power can feel like the only form of power. I agree that a clutching to this power and identity is a legitimate phenomena among some significant portion of the female populace. And that, like all ego-characteristics that don't budge in the light of awareness, that don't become transparent through the act of dis-identification, would indeed be an obstacle to realizing the autherntic self or pure Being.

But jeez. Ain't that a reductive and distorting way of conceiving of “women's power”? And doesn't it dismiss and render invisible all the women whose physical attractiveness doesn't thusly move men?

I'll say for myself, when I became aware of my sexual power (which didn't happen until my thirties), that was not when I found my own power. My sense of my own power was inherent. I sensed it as a child in the wonder I felt and in my capacity to perceive beauty, truth, goodness, in my capacity to be moved, to have insights – a brand new (to me), never before encountered, radiantly lucid thought, to care and connect, to say “No!” and “Yes!”
As I matured my sense of that power both grew and became distorted. As an adolescent I felt a new kind of powerlessness, along with a burgeoning awareness that I contained universes! How utterly confusing. At a time when my intellect was developing by leaps and bounds, and my self-sense was exploding with perceptions of kosmic infinitude and multiplicity, I also felt socially unworthy. I wasn't one of “the pretty girls.” Nasty cognitive dissonance ensued. Who the hell am I? How can my interior individual experience be so vastly at odds with my experience in the interior and exterior collective? Yow.

I also find it sadly and falsely limiting to conceive of women's sexual power solely as a tool of manipulation:

I've tried to imagine what it would be like to be a girl who, when she reaches puberty, suddenly realizes that when she comes into a room, simply by raising her eyebrow or moving her shoulders, she can cause a wave to pass over men. What would it be like to know that you have that kind of capacity to manipulate others?

How about this question:
What would it be like to know that you have that kind of capacity to move others? And to be becoming aware, at the same time, that many do not want to be moved, or they do, but they will resent you for offering that?

Love you all,
Lauren

Re: Integral Women

For a woman, if her ego has to give up this identification with sexuality as a source of personal power, she's giving up almost everything she has.


Huh?

Re: Integral Women

Lauren, I am just in from a break weeding the garden. You have taken my breath away… We are now beginning to dance in the fire at the heart of the integral feminine. It is such a brand new territory…. and so precious…. I just love you. I love what you offer here. my heart soars… and now I should go over to the ‘what makes me cry’ thread. sigh.
Jane

Re: Integral Women

Here’s a story, a thirteen year old story….

I am sitting alone at Sunset Point, in Collingwood where I grew up. It is spring. I have had terrible menstrual cramps and I have stayed home from school. Late in the afternoon, I am dosed with Midol and feeling a bit better. I tell my mom I am going for a walk. I take the book I am reading, Wuthering Heights. I walk down to the lake and prop myself up against a rock, watch the seagulls, read my book. I am dressed in a pink outfit, one that I had gotten for my birthday. Pink corduroy bell bottoms, a long sleeve shirt of the same colour.
A noisy sounding car drives by, and then halts and backs up. The motor stops. A man gets out. His hair is slicked back, he has a scar over his lip. He is skinny and smoking a cigarette. He walks over to where I am propped up and sits down beside me uninvited.

“What is your name, what are you reading, ever read Tropic of Cancer? Want to come for a ride?…”

I am frightened. I am scanning the shore, and the road behind me. There is nobody anywhere. I give him one syllable answers. He tells me he has just gotten out of jail, just driving around, nothing to do. He offers me a cigarette. I decline. He keeps leering at me. I am silent and petrified. I am not sure what is going to happen, but after a while he gets up, and leans over me. He puts his lips on my lips. I am frozen. A small gurgling sounds comes out of me. He stands up and says “meet me here tomorrow, I’ll bring you the book.” He gets in his car and drives away.

I begin to cry. I run home on back streets, frightened that he might drive by… I am frightened he might find out where I live. When I get home, I don’t know what to say to my mother. Somehow, I must be responsible for this horrible event. For weeks I barely leave the house. It is a year before I will walk around the town alone.

Gee, I wonder what Ken and Andrew(I assume) would say about this story! What does that do to an adolescent female ego…..? Who among us does not have a story like that, several of them in fact, and way worse too? What about all the girls that have gone missing? What about them?

Re: Integral Women

So this 'new women's liberation' is a project that I've been working very hard on for quite a long time, and I believe that in the last year or so I have acheived a significant victory. I have a group of women I'm working with now who have finally taken that bold leap to come together beyond ego. I cracked this thing, for the first time really, last summer, and since that time, these women have started to simply delight in each other's company in a way that is not the kind of thing women usually do. It sounds very simple, but it's actually quite a profound shift. Women can share all kinds of personal places and spaces together, but to simply delight in being together in a profound level of trust and transparency and impersonal care is very rare indeed, as far as I know.”

Hi Lauren

I was triggered by the whole article and by this section in particular. I sat on it, wondering was I in the grip of the MGM, as the opening banter between the two of them, about “two intellectual tough guys like you and me” having the temerity to discuss womens' enlightenment, would suggest (who was it (Gina? Mascha?) who posted 5 ways the higher altitude card is used to shut up anyone who disagrees). I didn't read any further in the issue of WIE. Although I should go back and hear the women's voices there.

'The arrogance' was my cry. Women can only experience delight in each other's company through the ministrations of AC? Speechless.

My only explanation for this and other sweeping statements such as

'They have freedoms that women have never known or experienced throughout history. They can choose to do just about anything they want.'

was he/they is/are coming from a very narrow LL and LR experience.

There's a very deprived housing estate near my home, I look at some of the girls and women and I see very limited choices. Okay there are theoretical possibilities out there for them, but that's all - theoretical. There's one young girl, 13 or 14 years old, i saw her walking 5 kids to school at 11am (2 hours after start time), when she should have been at school herself. I couldn't work it out because she was so young and all the kids looked around 5-7 years old, they couldn't all be hers surely? My son told me 'They're her brothers' kids and she has to look after them. How much choice does she have when her family see her as their child minding resource?

I can only imagine that they (AC/KW) come into contact with such a narrow range of women to be able to make these statements.

Juliee

Re: Integral Women

Quoted from WIE(I assume): “Another deep structure in women’s consciousness that is quite an obstacle to liberation beyond ego has to do with the relationship between sexuality and power. Again, I’ve tried to imagine what it would be like to be a girl who, when she reaches puberty, suddenly realizes that when she comes into a room, simply by raising her eyebrow or moving her shoulders, she can cause a wave to pass over men. What would it be like to know that you have that kind of capacity to manipulate others? What would it be like to suddenly feel this tremendous power over the other half of the race?…__…Men have physical strength. Women have sexual power. What do men want? Men want sex. When a woman realizes that, she finds her own power. And that’s a lot of power to have in this world. Now the sexual impulse is not a problem in and of itself, but it can become problematic in an enlightenment context., because to whatever degree the ego overidentifies with any particular aspect of ourselves, in this case our sexual identity, the personality always distorts. If enlightenment is a natural state or a more authentic way of expressing our humanity, then the sixty-four-thousand-dollar question is: What would be the most natural, most unselfconscious, most authentic way to relate to every aspect of life, including the sexual impulse? In order to find the answer we certainly have to be willing to transcend compulsive identification with that dimension of our own nature. So for a woman to go beyond ego in an enlightenment context, her ego would have to cease to identify with her sexual power. That doesn’t mean she’d have to give up her sexuality or her sexual nature, but in order for her to find a completely different way to be herself, her ego, or nacissistic self-sense, would have to give up its attachment to that particular part of her self as a source of power.__Now that is a lot to ask. I’ve realized that men don’t necessarily have to pay such a high price when we’re speaking about going beyond ego. For a woman, if her ego has to give up this identification with sexuality as a source of personal power, she’s giving up almost everything she has. That’s like taking away a soldier’s only weapon. If her relationship to life was still fundamentally ego-based, not truly spiritual or soul-based, then she would feel that her source of power was being taken away. And why would a woman want to give that up? But if she’s truly committed to taking that next step into a deeper or higher liberation that sets a foundation for a new potential in the evolution of culture, these outdated defense structures have to be transcended. __So this ‘new women’s liberation’ is a project that I’ve been working very hard on for quite a long time, and I believe that in the last year or so I have achieved a significant victory. I have a group of women I’m working with now who have finally taken that bold leap to come together beyond ego. I cracked this thing, for the first time really, last summer, and since that time, these women have started to simply delight in each other’s company in a way that is not the kind of thing women usually do. It sounds very simple, but it’s actually quite a profound shift. Women can share all kinds of personal places and spaces together, but to simply delight in being together in a profound level of trust and transparency and impersonal care is very rare indeed, as far as I know.”__

We are into summer here in the Northland…. The lake has warmed up and last night at midnight I was swimming, alternatively sauna-ing with friends. The northern lights flickered on and off on the horizon. “This is a Labrador moment, it is so perfect,” one said. “Best night ever,” said another.

Anyway, I woke up, thinking about this article. Actually, as I awoke, I was feeling my reaction to this article… It was a internal feeling of solar plexus alarm, a readiness to stand up and take down these nincompoops, a clenching of my jaw, brow furled, a steely piercing gleam emanating from my eyes, or so imagined… a Hera-sized offense that makes me want to grab whoever wrote this article by the scruff of the neck and pin them high up on a wall with their feet dangling lamely. I would say something like: “Listen buster…” just like my mother would. When the world leaders on integral philosophy and evolutionary enlightenment are willing to publicly put forth that a woman’s power is dependent on her man’s sexual needs/wants/capacity/impotence, it is almost time to close the book and do some serious soul searching. It just ain’t good enough.

What women are these men talking about? Paris Hilton? Britney Spears? Nicole Richie?

Following the myth of the givens, it may be likely that women who don’t make AC/KW’s dicks get hard, probably don’t even exist, or maybe we exist as just a blurry, fuzzy side-line, and unfocussed; hey, maybe capable of creating an annoying static, but nothing that cannot be turned down and ignored. Yes, it must be only the ‘real women’ that they are talking about in this article. And little doubt, if I were to voice such a concern, it would be understood that I was speaking from my own lack of sexual attractiveness, my own fears and inadequacies, as opposed to the fact that those two guys, or at least who ever wrote that bit above, (I am assuming it was friendly collusion of a discussion) are behaving like stupid dicks.

One would think that in a integral world view, enlightened, awake, present, open, available women would be treasured and sought after. These women are here, among us, right NOW. I know many women like this in my life, many of them! Beauties! I can see them here on this forum, they write to me. In my job, I help them with their babies. I help them with the families. I watch them at the community fund raisers, they are my friends. Some of them are coming here tonight on a retreat. This is also the truth: women like this are not sought after or desired by men still functioning in the predator/prey model of sexual exploitation and conquering. And this is also true: there are very few men who have broken through and gone beyond the predator/prey paradigm. It is the ‘pursuit’ aspect of this paradigm that conjures the polarity that attracts ‘first tier’ men. Men caught in this blinkered paradigm are first stage men in Deida-speak…. And evidence suggests that there are a lot of men caught in this stage along the sexual line of development. Similarly true; when women come into our true power, centred, sure and no longer up for negotiating our power away in order to be loved, we are a site to behold. This power is exactly the very power that Lauren talks about, an inherent power, that is often forced under ground in the confounding sexual arena. This power is a way of seeing, of appreciating, of loving, of caring, of connecting. When we become third stage women, we are not attractive to first stage men, certainly not for long.

At this point, it is the very rare man, who can see beyond his own conditioned, oft-pornographic version of ‘the fantasy woman’, to be able to stay present with what is. It is the very rare man who is NOT so confounded by his own sexual egoic performance-driven, dick hardening POV that he can even know for a second what the true force and power of the eternal feminine is really all about. At the same time, women arrive at this power, realizing that they have never left it. Heroically, we have gone through the all the thickets of sexual confoundation, addiction to perfection, cognitive dissonance of our own talents, and all manner of mental gymnastics trying to understand what it is that men don’t really get. In the end we realize that whether men understand and can actually fully meet a women of power, well, that is not on our side of the street, it is not in our control. At the same time, whether we fearless and boldly and compassionately embody this power, well, this is our responsibility.

In this adventure, we come time and again to the confounding pattern that sexual attraction beats friendship just as surely and a straight beats a full house at poker. This is not an exclusively male phenomenon, not at all. But it is a first tier phenomenon, I am sure of this. In the lines of development, once any person gets into second tier, it is no longer possible. To a large extent, this journey is what that extraordinary movie, American Beauty, was about. It was about this sexual confoundation, about learning to see what is really before us all, in every magical, astonishing moment. Of course, middle-aged men don’t want to be fucking their daughter’s teenage friends! And what was with Anna Nicole Smith and the old geezer with all the money!…. Please! As Germaine Greer said somewhere, ‘the thought of old skin on new becomes repulsive.”(those might not be her words but they are to that effect) To some extent, the movie ‘Something’s Gotta Give’ is about this too…. We all need to be ‘fully met’…this is not to say that on occasions one might not find a soul mate to be years older or younger. (somebody posted about Harold and Maude somewhere)….. but the ability to connect on a soul level requires that men and women move through this confounding knot. We must move through the tangle of male ego-driven sexual desire, performance anxiety/ female naivety and desire to please and fear of abandonment. We need to grow up. We need maturity.

When I read, “Men want sex. When a woman realizes this, she moves into her power.” What a joke! Although many women are confounded, and have had a difficult time finding their voice to express their sexual needs, I know very few women who don’t want as much and more sex than their partners. Indeed, women are often in celibate relationships with partners who are unable to meet them sexually. Jay-sus, who doesn’t like to fuck! It should be like a great massage, at the very least, and holds the special possibility of tantric union and spiritual awakening in the deeper and mystical recesses. What is not to love about that?!

Still, there is the feminist joke, “Why do men have such a difficult time knowing when women are having and orgasm?” The answer of course, ‘because they are hardly ever there!” We might make assumptions that this is not so in integral circles, but I would be surprised if it isn’t. Any man still functioning from a heavily shadowed ego, inevitably filled with performance anxiety, will become defensive and blocked by most or all attempts by his partner to have conscious sex. There are many women who are petrified to tell men what they need and want. In this way, a woman is trapped by a fear of being abandoned if she really tells her partner what she wants. In all, this is a wonderful, fecund area that needs attention in the crucible of awakening into intimate communion.

I have spent countless hours talking to men and women about sex. I have facilitated all kinds of sex workshops, in all age groups, including sex education programs in schools, and for teachers, for counsellors. There is ‘much needed information’, essential in deconstructing the performance anxiety in men, and the lack of voice for women. It is a practice between two people staying conscious and present, to relinquish the selfish stance, to ask about what works for the other, to get bold enough to say what works for ‘me’. To dump shame, and get curious and willing.…..It is a commitment to speak the truth, to allow the relationship to serve a deepening intimacy.

When I consider the progressive steps in healthy, non-addictive relationships, as outlined before: 1. acquaintance 2. affection 3. friendship 4. commitment 5. (soulful/sexual) intimacy…. I am pretty sure these steps are as essential, and in that order, as the progressive, chronologically-imperative steps in embryology are in unfolding a human baby. The fact that these steps are bypassed and skipped, that clear foundations on one level are not established before the next level is entertained, well, it is no wonder that we have as many disappointing and deformed and calamitous relationships as we do. It is no wonder that the ‘egoic’ polarity between men and women continues to grow, while a true appreciation, a intimate communion between peer and lover, a recognition of a polarity on a soul level-the tantric dance, seems as remote as ever.

I would like to tell Andrew Cohen, and Ken Wilber, that women have been having deep, non-competitive, delightful relationships with each other for as long as I know about. In this day and age, women(without Andrew’s guidance) have stepped into our power in all manner of expression, and have been engaged in a deep, honest and soulful exploration of this power for years. (I have yet to see anything similar on the men’s front, though all efforts are encouraged, supported and applauded) The fact that the integral institute and enlightenext are not able to recognize the deep and unparalleled work in which women have been involved, is in my considered opinion a function of the blinkered , partial, non-inclusive, male-dominant structure of both organizations.

At the same time, I want to say, it is time for men to do the catch up work, to learn to connect their balls and their heart. At the same time, women must continue to find the courage to speak from their deepest truths, and against all the currents carrying us in desperate and disparaging directions. We are in the middle of great birthing pains in this human expression. And men who are focussed on their erections, lack thereof, and whether or not women can evoke them, these men are not likely to be the men that find themselves able to midwive this new emergence of expression without some serious work on themselves….

We have been functioning collectively the world over, within the unacknowledged parameters of ‘what gives a man a hard on’. Really! It is war, sports, beer, dope, porn, high rises, big cars, big boats, big tits you name it! As Shrek said, and my son David repeated with a wry grin one day as we drove past a huge new house: “hmmm, I wonder what he is compensating for.” The earth, at this point, is pretty well run ragged from these egoic, male-centered shenanigans.

And as the bumper sticker says, ‘God is coming, and she is pissed.’

Okay, deep breath. Back to the garden, I go.

Re: Integral Women

Great. Wake up and roar! Yes, powerful and rousing and soul-stirring stuff, y'all!  Encouragement pouring forth in spades over here.

Great good shouting into the storm… Still, from where I'm sitting, it will take several generations to get this ball rolled into an avalanche and squarely hitting the majority of the male population. Men need the equivalent of women's emancipation, but their route to wholeness is not the same. We know what's required, we all agree; even the more educated men generally do – to a degree.

Now what, though?

My best answer is, keeping it small. Starting at home, with me, with ourselves, every hour of every day. How are we colluding in this sordid state of affairs where women are routinely belittled, invalidated, intimidated and so on? Let's look around an obvious starting place: these forums here. How is it possible for us to allow this behavior towards women posters and then go forth responding with what sounds like encouragement for being treated with less than a respectful, non-sexist tone, or undertone or even whiff of same? Skillful means, I suppose will be the answer that will be given here. Speaking only for myself, I feel alienated, and I'm not buying the skillful means rationalization entirely, while at the same time, I can perfectly understand the twisted moves we all make, and I can definitely, from a deep place of pain inside me, relate to it as “the best we can do”… for now.


M

Re: Integral Women

Wow and wow. 

Let's see figuring out that men want sex and women have the power is the answer to women's ‘real' power in the world??  WTF?

Ask any woman in Afghanistan if that is true for her.  What the hell kind of view is this article written from anyway??  I have been reading Eve Ensler's newest book (only a few pages in) and the frightening world view of woman's power and role is digging under my skin.

If enlightenment is a natural state or a more authentic way of expressing our humanity, then the sixty-four-thousand-dollar question is: What would be the most natural, most unselfconscious, most authentic way to relate to every aspect of life, including the sexual impulse?

This is the BIG Question??  Hmmm…. If it hadn't been mixed in with all the taint of male/female sexuality, I might give it some more of my time.  But I can't help but think that the sexual impulse is so much more a man's ‘cross' to bear.  There are way too many women in the world that have little or no power regarding their sex, gender or existence and to keep us in a corner …. well, you know.  Can we even begin to really explore all of who we are when women in our world are not even considered human?

What does it mean to be an Integral Woman?   I just have to keep asking.

Re: Integral Women

Hi y'all,

Dropping in right now to give credit where credit is due. The above quote was Andrew Cohen in the most recent The Guru & the Pandit dialogue with Ken.

Jane:
“When the world leaders on integral philosophy and evolutionary enlightenment are willing to publicly put forth that a woman’s power is dependent on her man’s sexual needs/wants/capacity/impotence, it is almost time to close the book and do some serious soul searching. It just ain’t good enough.”

Yes, its a terrible disappointment, and my emotional response is similar to yours, Jane. Reading Andrew's words I found myself appalled at his seeming ignorance. “Men have physical strength. Women have sexual power. What do men want? Men want sex. When a woman realizes that, she finds her own power. And that's a lot of power to have in this world.”

Does he really think in these reductive terms? Perhaps. Perhaps not. Maybe Andrew is speaking to the legitimate issue of the attachment to sexual power that a sexually attractive woman has and the obstacle to realization of the authentic self that this attachment creates. But to centralize this point in his thesis about “women, enlightenment, and the evolution of culture” indicates that he's not saying “this is an issue with some women; this is one dynamic with some relevance…” but rather this is at the heart of the challenge that faces all women. And it is simply so ill-conceived. From a place of distorted and partial perceptions and flimsy (or shall we say flaccid) logic a universal decree issues. What a spectacular failure of intelligence!

I imagine that Andrew is an intelligent man. WIE is an interesting publication. I like the students of his that I've met. I'm not drawn to him as a teacher; I've not felt any compelling resonance in my encounters with him. But I did not expect to be quite so disappointed with his “insights” and analytical capabilities. I did not quote the beginning of the dialogue (I couldn't find it online, so I had to type in what I wished to share most; I wish I had a link to the whole piece) but Andrew's thesis from the beginning had little resonance for me at all. A lot of it displays such poor logic, I wonder at how he didn't realize that in publishing this dialogue he was revealing, more than anything else, his own glaring blind spots and his narcissistic eagerness to be at the center of the solution of a problem that he (partially) invented. He seems to make a lot of big assumptions, and then without needing to investigate and determine the credence of those assumptions, uses them as the foundation of his theory. I am reminded of Freud's theory of female hysteria. Here's another excerpt from the same dialogue:

“… So that was really my introduction to the fact that men and women face different challenges on the path to evolution beyond ego. When I started digging into this, I began to see that there are all kinds of obstacles that women particularly face that have to do with biological and cultural conditioning. There are, for example, many very primal reasons that women compete, consciously and unconsciously, that make it difficult for them to trust each other enough to let go of ego and just be together in a context that is not personal. Of course, women by nature are very relational – they can take care of their family, support their friends, and they do, it seems, hold the world together for us all – but if they are asked to come together and just be, they often experience a profound sense of panic.

I've thought a lot about where this seemingly irrational fear comes from. I've tried to imagine what it would be like, for example, to become aware, at a very young age, of the fact that half your species has the power to physically overwhelm you at any moment. What would it be like to feel that vulnerable. That's an experience a man almost never has. On an almost preconscious level, women experience a state of visceral biological vulnerability that is just not part of the male experience. When I started to really contemplate this, it became apparent to me that once a woman had realized that she was physically so vulnerable, she would have to come up with a way to protect herself that wasn't physical. So I realized – and of course I'm making generalizations here – that the ego-structure or self-structure in women, even more so than in men, is used as a defense mechanism – a means to self-protect, to manipulate, and to control.

This structure, which once served an important function, now inhibits, in a very fundamental way, women's capacity for authenticity. A lot of this isn't completely conscious, but women learn early on how to keep themselves emotionally and psychologically safe. For example, they seem to have an inner place they can retreat to when they want to protect themselves, where they just cannot be reached. And I can imagine this is a capacity that probably developed in women's consciousness a long time ago so that even if she could be physically overwhelmed at any time, even if they could have her body, they could never have her soul. All women still have this place of retreat, which for most men I know just isn't available. Another result of these primal defense structures is that women are often shape-shifters; they're constantly changing their position and morphing to fit into the different situations they find themselves in, never quite willing to put all their cards on the table. Women create a world of appearances and manipulate their environment and other people in order to have their way and get through life. It's a completely different way to operate than the way men usually do. Men, in this sense, are more straightforward – it's much easier to know who you're dealing with. When you ask women to be straight and simple and nonmanipulative, they find it very difficult. And I don't think it's because they're cognitively incapable of being straight of that this shape-shifting is inherently part of their nature. I think it's part of a defense structure in the self.

So when it comes to evolving beyond ego, the fact that the self-structure has these built-in defense mechanisms, which were originally born out of biological necessity, is something that women have to reckon with. When facing into the whole notion of enlightenment or emptiness of self, I think women are asked to give up a lot more than men. Of course, men are also terrified of transcending their own pride, narcissism, and arrogant self-importance – they also experience an existential fear of ego death or ego transcendance – but they don't feel, on a visceral level, that 'if I let go of my ego I'm physically going to die.' But I've realized that because of the survival-driven roots of the female ego structure, women often do feel – and this is not necessarily conscious – that 'if I transcend my ego, I'll have no way to protect myself,' which on a very deep emotional level translates as 'I'm physically going to die.' ”

There's much to say, much to question.

For example, is this true?
“Of course, women by nature are very relational – they can take care of their family, support their friends, and they do, it seems, hold the world together for us all – but if they are asked to come together and just be, they often experience a profound sense of panic.”

Not in my experience. I have found that most people, when offered the opportunity to just come together and be, resist, aren't interested, perhaps panic in some contexts. I've not experienced this any more with women than with men.

Is this true?
“Of course, men are also terrified of transcending their own pride, narcissism, and arrogant self-importance – they also experience an existential fear of ego death or ego transcendance – but they don't feel, on a visceral level, that 'if I let go of my ego I'm physically going to die.' ”
I think that the universally human experience of existential fear of ego death often, but not always, translates as “I'm going to physically die.”

Is this true?
“'ve tried to imagine what it would be like, for example, to become aware, at a very young age, of the fact that half your species has the power to physically overwhelm you at any moment. What would it be like to feel that vulnerable. That's an experience a man almost never has.”
If we're talking about rape here, women fear it more. But I seriously doubt that men almost never experience the terror of feeling physically vulnerable. Maybe some. And maybe for many it's a sublimated fear, as it often is for women as well. But I've seen men fearing for their lives, for their physical safety. I've heard them speak the fear. I'd love to hear some of the men here speak up on this one though. Maybe I'm assuming too much.

Is this true?
“All women still have this place of retreat, which for most men I know just isn't available.”
Not consistent with my experience. Again, I think it's a human capacity. I don't understand Andrew's logic. Men don't retreat, to protect themselves, into a place “where they just cannot be reached”?

And this, is this true? His observations, his assessment of what it means, his assumption that “straight” trumps changeable in the hierarchy of value, depth, and significance?
“Another result of these primal defense structures is that women are often shape-shifters; they're constantly changing their position and morphing to fit into the different situations they find themselves in, never quite willing to put all their cards on the table. Women create a world of appearances and manipulate their environment and other people in order to have their way and get through life. It's a completely different way to operate than the way men usually do. Men, in this sense, are more straightforward – it's much easier to know who you're dealing with. When you ask women to be straight and simple and nonmanipulative, they find it very difficult.”

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Back to Jane:
“When the world leaders on integral philosophy and evolutionary enlightenment are willing to publicly put forth that a woman’s power is dependent on her man’s sexual needs/wants/capacity/impotence, it is almost time to close the book and do some serious soul searching. It just ain’t good enough.”

Like I said, I'm with you in the terrible disappointment. And I agree it ain't a good enough awareness (neither accurate, wise, nor insightful), still, it IS.
Furthermore, I can't speculate what Ken's thoughts are about Andrew's theories. He didn't exactly respond in a manner that connoted his agreement, but damn, I didn't see his sword of discrimination swinging either. He didn't seem offended by Andrew's lack of perceptiveness, nor by Andrew's presumption that his perceptions were accurate; he did not challenge his theories. That too is disappointing.
But, here we are.

As Jane said: “(we have gone through) all manner of mental gymnastics trying to understand what it is that men don’t really get.” This dialogue is so fascinating because it highlights some of the fundamental false assumptions and perceptions that may be at the heart of our failures to get through to each other, and more importantly, to wholly accept and honor and love each other, to live in the exquisite balance of yin and yang, to build cognition and social structures and technologies and relationships and economies and healing modalities and cultural rituals and art and spiritual practices that embody this balance.

I'll speak for myself: I want to understand what men really think and feel. I am hoping and suspecting that many of the men here will not be in accord with Andrew's overall perspective. I suspect many if not most of the men on this forum are more interpersonally saavy and self-aware with regard to gender structures and consciousness. Nevertheless, I bet that some of Andrew's assumptions point to a collective deep structure of consciousness that is pathological, in that it is founded on misperception and fear of the Feminine. We've all been imprinted with it. How we respond to that fact is in each of our hands.

Gina asked: “Can we even begin to really explore all of who we are when women in our world are not even considered human?”
For me the answer is YES. We can. By connecting with your true personal power, fully developing and honoring its feminine dimensions as well as its masculine ones. And by orienting your awareness to the true north of the authentic Self. By knowing that no human mind can define You.

And also by remembering, we are in continual inescapable relationship, and we all stand to become much more skillful in that realm, women, men, gurus, and pandits alike. Some more than others, of course, but we're all in need of more relational awareness, and the magnanimous qualities of equanimity, humility, and loving kindness will serve us all well on this path.


Jane again:
“In the end we realize that whether men understand and can actually fully meet a women of power, well, that is not on our side of the street, it is not in our control. At the same time, whether we fearlessly and boldly and compassionately embody this power, well, this is our responsibility.”

Love,
Lauren

Re: Integral Women

Lauren, Gina, Jane et al: you're saying everything so well, I don't feel the need to add to it much. I do, however feel the need to say, “Me, too,” in light of recent developments, and of the fact that I've been reading along without comment so far.

I've gotten the feeling all along that KW doesn't agree privately with AC as much as he seems to, and that he goes along for the sake of “integral.” Maybe that's wishful thinking. But AC has never struck me as anything but a complete wanker. WTF, indeed.

Liz

Re: Integral Women

Andrew and Ken need to read this by Robert Augustus Masters, ”Taking Charge of your Charge.” Both have displayed the kind of projection that RAM talks about and could use a good whack on the knuckles from this particular teacher.

Liz
 

Re: Integral Women

Liz, I love that essay too. It is in his book, ‘Freedom Doesn’t Mind Its Chains’…. a great book! Maybe Andrew and Ken could go to his Boulder workshop…. now that would be worth the price of admission!.
Jane

Re: Integral Women

Dear All, 

I'm really heartened to see this discussion on women, men and sexual attractiveness here.  My own experience has been a beautifully woven mixture with much ego-pain and ego-satisfaction: both the experience of attracting attention and of being ignored.  I see that this outward orientation whether it's the ego-pain or ego satisfaction has been one -if a major –aspect of an overall ego-orientation that I have had.  What draws me more and more powerfully (41 years on in my life) is the soul-driven life.  And your hearts and souls here on zaadz are part of that beckoning…

Having lunch with a dear male friend today I asked him about the  male tendency to respond so sharply and painfully exclusively to physical beauty in women: why is it so?  We had a great discussion full of soft (and firm) approaches to the issue. 

He spoke of Beauty as a divine attribute that both men and women respond to.  But many if not most men see Beauty in very limited set of people until they become more integrated in that area. 

When a man is aroused by a physically beautiful woman many of us may think that it is only a sexual response they are having and get angry with him for being so superficial.  It is not, said he.  Even the men themselves don't get that it is not.  It is at base a spiritual response and we cannot forget that even as we look at how this impulse is distorted and narrowed in its coming to the surface.  The impulse itself is to be honoured even as we women express our pain  that most men see Beauty only in a few of us; and that the range of responses to that mostly include fragmented, agonisingly painful and scary ones (I think of the man who menaced young Jane; the have me a hooker mentality).

Both most men and most women have not claimed their power to see Beauty more deeply.  Women too, for we get angry at men for their inability in this area but how many of us truly get our beauty? This is a lifetime journey for many women.  I speak from my own journey of integration as a woman.  And I want to hear men speak of this too - wherever they are in that process? What has been the creative outcome of that for them?

I sense that the soul won't let integral men or women rest with narrow conceptions of beauty. It will confront them with the pain of their unhealed un-integral vision in this area of life again and again.  Men who privilege physically beautiful women over all others feel it once the relationship starts going along in its process.  And women who live by their sexual power feel the emptiness of that as the relationship progresses.  It's a hook with a powerful seed of unspiralling in it when a woman and man rely too much on the Beauty-Power exchange.

If Cohen and Ken and other men and women in the spiritual movement still see beauty in a very limited way - it reflects and perpetuates a profound hurt, a knot as Jane says, in their interior lives.  It's taken a journey to get to that level of understanding for me. 

Re: Integral Women

Hi all !

 

I live in the north, and want to enjoy the short summer fully, and hence spend during the summer a lot of my time in our cottage in the countryside without any net connection. Now I'm just visiting the city shortly. Anyway yesterday I started reading this thread and have enjoyed the writings immensely.

It is often horrifying to see the outcome, when males define, what it is to be female. They seem to think they know it better than the females themselves. But actually they are just talking about their dreams, and the projections of their disowned selves into women. And also about their need to define and control what is appropriate for women, so that they will continue to be submissive servants to men. This is not a new phenomenon. The scriptures of the old traditions abound such projections.

Years ago I got totally pissed off with David Deida, when he was defining what essentially is true feminity. I couldn't recognize myself in it at all. I have never felt the need to be SEEN by all, when I walk to a room. I haven't felt a strong need to dress up etc. Still I feel myself to be feminine, but it is not the kind of feminity, that focuses on pleasing men. And I have never been the kind of woman men dream of, and I have not even been capable of feeling it to be a problem! This may be partly because I met my husband, when I was 17, and married him at 21. I have had also a strong tendency to fall deeply in love with men, even while I have been married. However I never started a physical relationship with these infatuations. When my feelings started to fade, there was always a new one already smoldering. I found no problem with that. The falling in love just spontaneously appeared. I had not been flirting with these men, or focusing on being sexually attractive. And I have never used my sexuality to get something from these men.

Andrew Cohen's idea of females having especially difficult in giving up their attachment to their sexual power is really weird. The women, who for some reason have been attached to their sexual power over men, usually have to give it up, when they get older. And they survive. AC must have lost his reality check in this point!

Women have also always found simple delight in being each other's company. For 17 years now we have been once a week gathering with my female friends, doing something we call chatter yoga. We do some physical exercises, then some yoga asanas, and all the time we chatter, or talk about whatever spontaneously comes to our minds, or is bothering us. It can be also gossiping. We have no problems with that either. It takes around two hours each time, and we find it very refreshing. And there is a profound level of trust and transparency among us. This is a traditional way for women to function. In our group we have just exchanged the knitting to physical exercise. Here also AC shows poor knowledge of women's traditional ways of functioning together.

AC also says: “Another result of these primal defense structures is that women often are shape-shifters; they are constantly changing their position and morphing to fit into the different situations they find themselves in, never quite willing to put all the cards on the table.” I can recognize myself pretty well in this pattern, but my understanding of the motive to behave this way is quite different from AC:s ideas of women's need to manipulate the environment to get it their way,.(His interpretation may be true for the lower stages.)

I have sometimes considered myself to be a chameleon, changing color depending on my company. I don't want to force people adopt my reality, because I understand that they cannot! Instead I tune in to their reality, and communicate in the level of their world. I do not try to change them. Occasionally however a crack may appear, as always in a good dialogue, when we may help each other to widen our horizons. In the modern western societies people inhabit many kinds of worlds, and hence my shape shifting. In this way I can have a good discussion with a fundamentalist Christian, a communist, an orange meme materialist, a person inhabiting a mean green meme etc. If men are more straightforward in these matters, it is because of their weaker social skills, and the result is less enjoyable communications.

I noticed in this thread also complaints that men tend to ignore or belittle the female voices. I have no personal experiences in this. It may be however due to cultural differences. I live in Scandinavia, where women have been traditionally strong and more independent. I have never observed that something I have said has been ignored just because I'm a woman.

My observation is rather that women are linguistically more skilled than men, and they have easier to express themselves, their ideas, and especially their emotions.

In Finland we have had from the year 2000 on once a year a weekend seminar where people from different spiritual organizations meet to discuss certain spiritual themes (each time different ones). First somebody gives an introduction on the theme. Then we are randomly divided into groups of six to seven persons to discuss the theme. In these discussions we are not allowed to lean on any dogma or authority.

During a weekend we usually have four different themes and group settings to discuss in.

I think men and women participate these seminars equally in numbers, but women seem to dominate in the discussions. They have clearly easier to articulate themselves, when iwe are not allowed to lean on some theory or dogma.

Once during such a discussion three of us women got really wings under us, and we forgot for a while to give space to the other group members to express themselves. When finally a man got his voice through, he lamented about the women's tendency to dominate the discussions. He also explained that he experiences the same problem in his job. The he said: The worst would be to born as a female in a Muslim culture. The second worst is to be born as a man in Finland!

Irmeli

Re: Integral Women

Irmeli,
I really appreciate your views on this. My sense it that the Scandinavian countries have some collective lines of development that are more advanced that the rest of the world. I spent the better part of a summer in Danmark when I was about 20, on my Great Uncle Aage’s farm. I loved walking with him arm in arm through the old forests, he with his walking stick and a palpable sense of delight to be guiding me with care on his arm. My father is like this now too; when I link my hand through his elbow, he springs to attention, as if called to honour and protect, not in a possessive sense, but in a sense of deep appreciation and love.

A couple of years ago my father, and I were in the mountains of Ecuador on a medical mission of some sort. We were standing in the back of an open pick up truck holding on for dear life as the driver careened us around high mountain roads that crept up steep cliffs. “I’ll go on the outside,” my father said. “it is not so important if I go over the edge.” I have had a legion of struggles with my father growing up, determined to break out of the prescribed mold that he, my mother, and all of society seemed hell bent for election trying to hold me. Even on the sunny day, high in the mountains, he might not even know that his comment was heard…. But for me, it was at the very least a fledgling song of beautiful healthy masculine energy. It makes tears well up in my eyes to consider this energy. Not an energy of ‘power over’, of dominance, of possession, of ego, but of deep chivalry and honouring.

This clean and beautiful energy(male or female) is not forthcoming in the natural order of things in our present culture. To some extent, it may be more easy for women, but even this is damaged often. The unhealthy pattern for women is described in books like “Women Who Love Too Much” by Robin Norwood. When I first read her work, I could see myself and almost every woman around me in these patterns to some extent. As women, as females, the most powerful force in our nature is directed at protecting our babies…. No matter what, even if we have to die doing it. The pain and agony of losing our children is a dark well of grief that is unfathomable. What does it take to gestate and nurture our children in a safe context, to keep our families safe? It is hard-wired in our female human biology that the bare minimal requirements of this context includes a loving and strong man. What happens when this relationship is out of kilter at best and a menace at worst?

It has been a shocking dilemma in our recent generations when the polarity and the wounds of both men and women have confounded this context of safety. It is interesting that the time that a woman is most at risk of being battered by her partner is when she is pregnant or has just given birth. In first stage relationships, women often assume the motherly role of caring for their partners, and when this energy is redirected to new babies, odd and sometimes horrifying tensions emerge. I have always been a great advocate of breastfeeding. Lots of times I have watched as this activity has been undermined by male partners who felt threatened by the exclusivness of this maternal-child bonding. I have even had one man say to me regarding his partner’s breasts: ‘those are mine.’ Of course, that was an extreme, yet, there is a similar strangeness that often reveals itself in birthing and bonding of mothers and children.

It is a true rift in the order of things when the mother/child bond is ruptures, when addictions to substances, or to men, override the natural order of this love. FASD babies are common here, as are babies born to mothers who have been gas-sniffing through out pregnancies.

Perhaps more commonly, there are mothers(women) addicted to relationships with men who do not love them well or supportively. The women are suffering cognitive dissonance…. And make choices that prioritize their relationship with an unsupportive or abusive man, over the wellbeing of their children. It is in this context that children feel the deepest sense of insecurity, and the reverberations of unhealthy male/female polarities begin to seed and take hold of the context of survival. I have watched this in my own family, in my own life. It circles around an almost primordial fear that women have of being abandoned.

From a very young age, I set out to overcome this dependency/abandonment issue which I considered to be predominantly a female concern. I wanted it healed in my life! I was not going to depend on anybody for anything. Make no mistake, I was going to be honourable and chivalrous and generous. I choose not to be parsimonious in relationships. AND I would ALWAYS have taxi money. (Taxi money is the ability to pack up at any time and take a taxi home if I was not being treated with love and respect.) Oh, how I have compromised myself anyway…., lingering far too long in situations where I needed to throw in the towel. As well, it is my observation, that this kind of independence does not seem to be attractive to most men. On the one hand, I have attracted men who have not had their own independence and autonomy issues worked out and who have attached onto me for those very reasons. I have also had a lot of women fall in love with me, hetero-sexual women, some of my best friends. This is also an also interesting. It has even occurred to me that in my quest to be healed, I have begun exuding ‘healthy male energy’, which is both attractive and unattractive at the same time depending on the context. And it has also occurred to me that this ‘healthy male energy’ is not my deepest nature, but a reactive energy that has emerged out of my deep frustration of what I see going on around me. I am seeking to get deeper than this, to get beyond my reactivity.

The bear image is really interesting. In one of the sessions that I did in my RAM group, I was able to verbalize the grief that I feel that strength/largess and femininity seem to have become incongruent in our present society. This is such an incongruity and disservice to the eternal feminine. Even as I write this, a residual grief emerges, my throat tightens, I feel anger. I am a strong woman. I could kill to protect my children, and would die trying. I think about the mother bear walking in my yard this morning, her right hand cut off, her baby cubs following her around. I think about the idea that Andrew Cohen thinks that women’s strength is somehow less than men’s, and dependent on men’s arousal. Any woman who has moved into power of childbirth, who has had to stand up and protect who and what she loves, knows that the true strength of women is awesome. “Be sore afraid of this strength!” “God is coming and she is pissed.”

My work continues to be embodying this largess, this power and strength, this femininity, in a way that reflects what Nelly McClung said: “never explain, never apologize, get the job done, and let ‘em howl!” I have a large body, and it is interesting to practice strutting around in it. A friend gave me a denim miniskirt a while ago, which until last weekend I had in my closet, on a ‘not on your life’ hangar. It was hot, and I put in on to wander around the house. I am presently very tanned and quite fit, and with a little encouragement, a friend and I decided to stroll down the North West River Beach on a sunny Sunday afternoon. Operational instructions: Shoulders back, strut, smile, see what happens! The outcome: “hi Jane, you look great,…” “my brother has a crush on you, he says you’re the best doctor,” “you look so healthy, where did you get all the colour…” “I love your skirt, where’d ya get it?” “come on up here on stage and sing!” In all, it was an interesting experiment. I am going to have to try it out in my green gardening overalls next…. Who knows what I can costume myself in and still get away with!

In one of David Deida’s books, “Wild Nights” his tantric teacher says to him, “are you afraid to dance with the big lady?”
http://www.deida.info

I seem to know what his tantric teacher is talking about, I seem to know who she is this ‘big lady’. Sometimes when I am feeling brave and centered, I feel like I am embodying her, strutting around in her, sending out blessing from her, laughing gently at all the men who don’t know what she is about, or who shrink in fear at the idea of dancing with her….. Oh, all thoughts! And a little action too! This is an adventure out here at the end of the road.

Love Jane

Re: Integral Women

Irmeli, Lauren, Gitanjali, Jane, Jane, Jane! all of you,

ok, this last  bit Jane wrote evoked  the Man in me.  He rises to the challenge of meeting you. He wants you to be as powerful and uncontrollable and fragile as you truly are. All of you! He's ready to meet you where you are, tears in his eyes for being moved so strongly, stirred into giving you your ancient due. This king wants EVERYTHING FOR YOU, what else can he do when granting this means simultaneously coming into his own magnificent gut-given, god-given power. Sing, women, sing every word into my ear, I'm weeping with raw joy and pain over here. Say what cannot be said, say it all. He is listening to you.

Re: Integral Women

ah! the man of la mascha….. I know who you are speaking from. I see this man in lots of places. I feel him sometimes. I bow to him.
love Jane

Re: Integral Women

Hi Jane!

 

I have myself also gradually come to the conclusion that at least one line of the collective consciousness here is higher than elsewhere. It is how the two genders perceive each other. Is it called the psychosexual line? Here men respect and appreciate women, and vice versa. This one healthy feature in the collective consciousness of a society has powerful positive influences on many other domains in the society.
This respect of women is not a new phenomenon here. I have been looking at old photos and movies and the respect can palpably be felt there. Finland was not the first country where women got universal suffrage (I think it was the third), but here women got also elected into the parliament in the first vote. It tells me that there existed already 1907 a profound trust in the capacities of women.

I have only lately started to realize that this natural respect of women is missing in many other societies and cultures. There women are perceived as sex objects or as mothers and wives, but not as human beings with their own special intrinsic value that is different from that of men's. As you put it beautifully: Not an energy of 'power over', of dominance, of possession, of ego, but of deep chivalry and honouring.

In Finnish woman is 'nainen', power is 'valta', total is 'koko'. When we put these three words together and make it to an adjective we get 'kokonaisvaltainen'. This means integral, or comprehensive! Naisvaltainen means female dominance. The word 'kokonainen' means whole. Our ancestors have truly understood deeply the immense magnitude of true female power. In our language there are no separate personal pronouns for the two genders, just 'hän' meaning both she and he. I have all the time difficulties with other traditions, where ordinary common human qualities are seen either as female or male. I personally feel that the Finnish way of not separating these qualities as female or male is much healthier.

Earlier I was thinking that the weak position of women is typical for societies that are on a low developmental level. Nowadays I'm not anymore so sure about this correlation. I rather think  there is a causal relationship. The poor position of women, and their lack of rights is causing a collective pathological developmental arrest in those societies.

The oppression of women is a very severe pathology in a society that causes immense suffering, excessive breeding, and developmental arrest, even regression collectively. Nations like India or Tibet are underdeveloped in the stages in spite of their advanced spiritual traditions because of the oppression of women.

Under oppression women become excessively feminine and subordinate to please the men. They get empowered only through attachment to their children. These women cannot allow their children evolve in stages and become independent from them.

In these societies men also often look down upon women. This disdain is a result of the abuse. People tend to despise people they abuse. The despise is a corollary of oppression and abuse.

Irmeli

Re: Integral Women

I was at dinner tonight with a table full of people.  The person sitting across from me was a particularly challenging person with a bag full of bitter to go along with their not so witty repartee.  I left early and was doing my best to call my friends and wash myself clean of these rants about the injustices endured.  Unfortunately for me, none of the people I tried calling picked up the phone (funny how when you really want to dump your shit on someone else… they just don't pick up the phone)

In this experience, I found myself asking questions of this person about what might be good in their life because it seems so little was found to truly love and so much was wasted regurgitating the bile of experience.   and then this came to me

O-o-h child things are gonna get easier
O-o-h child things ll get brighter
O-o-h child things are gonna get easier
O-o-h child things ll get brighter

Someday well get it toghether and well get it undone
Someday when the world is much brighter
Someday well walk in the rays of a beautiful sun
Someday when the world is much lighter

O-o-h child things are gonna get easier
O-o-h child things ll get brighter
O-o-h child things are gonna get easier
O-o-h child things ll get brighter

Someday well get it toghether and well get it undone
Someday when the world is much brighter
Someday well walk in the rays of a beautiful sun
Someday when the world is much lighter

O-o-h child things are gonna get easier
O-o-h child things ll get brighter
O-o-h child things are gonna get easier
O-o-h child things ll get brighter

Someday well get it toghether and well get it undone
Someday when the world is much brighter
Someday well walk in the rays of a beautiful sun
Someday when the world is much lighter

O-o-h child things are gonna get easier
O-o-h child things ll get brighter
O-o-h child things are gonna get easier
O-o-h child things ll get brighter
Right now right now

**********
For us

Re: Integral Women

Hi Gina,

I know you posted this a long time ago, but I wanted to share that song always touches me very much. I remember listening to it in the days in the hospital following the birth of my first born child when I was experiencing all kinds of mixed feelings and physical reactions - elation and delight in my beautiful new baby, all the physical discomforts and pains associated with just post-partum and beginning to breastfeed, feeling the lows and loneliness of isolation in a room with a small human being who sleeps most of the day… I would hold her close and sing along to this song with tears running down my face, “oooh child things are going to get easier, things will get brighter”…

and they have… my baby girl has grown into a vibrant, intellectual and social 19 year old student of math and applied computer skills at university, who has moved from home and is looking forward to post graduate study… and I too have changed drastically…

Re: Integral Women

Hi,

I've been lurking on the pod for a while (and I think I just accidentally flagged someone's comment for review when I thought  I was bookmarking it–oops! sorry) and I will read to through to catch up on the conversation, but in the meantime, did the whole issue of the integral run out of steam or did it wind up elsewhere?

I really like the idea of integral philosophy as a systematic way to join spheres of thought and activity on many levels and as a way to mark human evolution, wobbly as it is from one person to another.  I have a fairly strong background in philosophy, and I think that Wilber gets a bad rap sometimes for making huge logical leaps without including every step, when in fact, if he did it the way many philosophers prove (in an analytic tradition) he'd never get to the point where he could make his point.  It's refreshing, sometimes, for someone to make a claim with broad sweeps if you know the homework has been done, and just hasn't all been listed in that particular book. I also think there's been so much talk and writing that it is developing into the kind of useful tool/system it was desgined to be. That in itself is remarkable to me, a  paradigm shift in its own right.

That said, I have to confess that the label of “feminine” but less “integral feminine” makes me more than a little … itchy.  I have yet to find any definition of the feminine that is elastic enough to include beyond stereotype, in a way that encompasses real women, either in Wilber's work or anywhere else. 

What's the most useful, broad but intelligent conception of the feminine you have found?  Was it written? Spoken? Witnessed?

Red Z.
now ducking back into the darkness to catch up on the thread details

Re: Integral Women

Feb 11th–I just posted this on my blog….
It is one of those days today, cold and windy. The lake is amorphous whiteness and the horizon is swallowed…… Shivvy is sick and I am making garlic ginger soup for her.
I have been reading the integral women thread….it has popped up again and seems ready almost for another go. I was writing on it a lot last summer, words and passions pouring through my fingers. I was loving too what everyone else was sharing….. Integral Women florescent in the summer moment.

On warm and sunny days, it is really an easy edifice to be an Integral Woman…… powerful Love pours through, Radiance and Strength abound, the Beloved is met at every turn, Compassion issues forth unfettered. These winter days of whiteness and cold are somewhat more challenging, more interesting too. I rub up against my own edges, my vulnerability, my little girlness. I want strong arms around me, and warm soup, and nurturing. I want to be loved not only for being 'all that' but for being 'all this' too.

'All this'…. what is 'all this'?
some thoughts: 'All this' is: A work in progress, an open mind, a gentleness, a timid traveller looking for an already blazing fire and an already set table, a unpredictable sea of swelling and contracting, liquid psyche….unknowingness.

Bob jumps into my head:
“You say you're looking for someone
Never weak but always strong,
To protect you and defend you
Whether you are right or wrong….
Someone to open each and every door.
But it ain't me babe…..”

I love Bob. Even though he is surly sometimes, self-centered, he can be seen standing his ground when a little, tepid love would shift the circumstance and dissipate the possibility and collapse the birthing space. And I like that. That quality can open the horizon up to something new and large and evolutionary, yet scary too. …. I think he would be a good partner for Shivvy… she has that certain quality too….. and she sings beautifully, like Bonnie Raitt…. He sings, “I am gonna make a lot of money, Gonna go up north….” Well, it is time he followed through…. well, if you ask me. He would like strolling on the beach up here, and we could use a headline singer at the North West Beach Festival in July…. and I tell ya, my sister is quite a remarkable emergence, even now, when she is sick. No one would want to miss her.

So the soup is done now. Shivvy is coughing…. and I am going to go off for a heroic ski in the bland, frigid whiteness…..back for an afternoon snooze.. and then in again to work emergency tonight— though the weather will be down and the planes won't fly…..and everyone will be better staying home and sipping ginger garlic soup.

Re: Integral Women

Thank you, Jane, for bumping up this thread. Holy Shit. That's what this thread is. And Juliee, rereading your suggestion that we bring this subject up at the workshop this summer…fills me with some sadness that some of the people who were going to be there will not be. But that's what's arising, and it's a great suggestion which I'm going to remember this time!

Liz

Re: Integral Women

I'm thinkin' maybe I better get myself on over to the workshop….!  gotta find Arthur

Re: Integral Women

Hi Nicole, Red z, Liz and Jane

Its been a long time since this thread was cooking - speaking of which, garlic and ginger soup - yum.

I'm going to start at the very beginning, its a very good place to start (is there a tune there?) and re-read.

Liz, I too am sorry family and South Korea calls. I'll be waiting to hear what you came up with when you see/hear/feel integral women in Sacramento.

Keep meaning to post a question - has anyone been to Seoul? Any recommendations for 'must not miss' things in Seoul?

Juliee