Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

This week's ISC talk on Ch. 7 of Integral Spirituality features our very own Tamgoddess Liz talking with Ken about intentional community, the I-I forums, and the sex-positive movement, among other things. If you have a membership with Integral Spiritual Center, or if you get one now … :-), you get access to this and all of these Integral Spirituality talks between Ken and I-I members.

Check it out! Hear Liz say: “Ill be keeping my eye on you, Ken …”

And hear Ken say: “Oy vey …”

Mary 

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

I still have to re-train my imagination to use Liz's real voice when I read her writing online.

I made a brief excerpt transcript for use on the gender issues threads so I will just share it here also.

____________________________________________

… he first got his stage conception –and I know David quite well, he’s a long time, one of my best friends and I just love the guy, (Keith: yeah) um – but the way he got his-the simplest stage conception was, basically, everybody that was coming to him was green. (Keith: yeah) So he just said, okay, and he divided sexual development into three stages. One of them was pre-green, (Keith: umm hmm) then green, and then post-green. And so pre-green was, you know, all the stereotypical, kind of red, you know, “me Tarzan, you Jane” and all the sort of, you know, classic stereotypical John Wayne version of, you know, the man is a man and the woman is a woman and that’s that. And then green, of course, is just this tepid, egalitarian, washed-out –there’s no polarization between the sexes and so there’s no sexual tension either, there’s no excitement; it’s just sort of, just an endless meeting –is sort of what sexuality is. (Liz laughs.) And then, it’s just like, (responding to Liz’s laughter) yeah, oh boy. And then post-green was –you know, turquoise, or higher –and that’s where you were allowed to then reintroduce sexual differentiation – in order to create tension, but without marginalizing anybody or, you know, making somebody the, you know, ranking in a bad way or judging in a bad way or marginalizing and so on. And that was just what green needed to hear. (Liz: umm hmm. Keith: Thank you, it’s great! Simple …) Yeah, it’s wonderful.

[Later] … you can do these kinds of things and that’s okay, that is transcend and include red. It’s not just red. And to be able to reintroduce any kinds of those sorts of impulses or instincts or drives that’s fine, as long as there’s a real understanding about it.

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

Great talk… definitely worth a listen to!

Having never heard Tamgoddess…. her strength, clarity, and eloquence (which I love and have grown accustomed to) were present, skipping along a sweetly delicate lovely voice!  Pleased to hear you Liz!

~ Stacy

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

Hey, wonderful stuff  !!!!!!!!!

God, Liz, we haven't talked for ages, since I was in Texas in March to be exact. It was SO good to hear you, almost like having you in the room. How did you get to be so smart?

Good to hear Arthur too, the last time I heard him speak (apart from the ken interview which i listened to) was when we spoke to him from Boulder..2 years ago. How things have moved along, so funny to hear you both on the same phone line now:-)

Oh, while I am here, I have something coming in the post for you. You can let me know when it arrives. I will expect photographic evidence that you have used it as it was intended.

Wait and see, I am saying no more

love

Liz

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

Tantalizing, Liz! I'll keep an eye out for it.

In other news, I did get some theory wrong, and I'm posting a correction as soon as I get RAM's permission.

They edited out some of the more uncomfortable parts, so you don't get to hear Ken ask me to stay on the IN forum, but I think that's just as well. There's been enough already on that subject.

Glad y'all enjoyed it. I'd forgotten how much I talked! Ken has an excellent way of getting people to blab, and that's one of the reasons there's such great content on I-I.

Liz

P.S. The correction:

"Toward the end you mentioned my stages of intimate relatedness as immature monogamy, 
followed by polyamory, and then mature monogamy.

This is not my view, and is not what I said in my essay on Immature & 
Mature Monogamy. There, I simply distinguish immature and mature 
intimate relatedness. Toward the end of that essay (which is Chapter 
One in my new book, for which Arthur has the pdf), I say: "Immature 
monogamy and multiple-partnering are two aspects of a stage of 
relatedness that must be outgrown before mature monogamy can take the 
stage." I definitely do not view polyamory as a higher stage than 
immature monogamy!

Check out my Introduction to the book (The Evolution of Intimate 
Relationship, which, in an earlier draft, appears in my June 2007 
newsletter) for my take on the stages of relational intimacy: 
me-centered, we-centered codependent, we-centered coindependent, and 
being-centered.

I hope what I've said clarifies things."

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

For more on Robert's views on the evolution of intimate relationship, see his appropriately-titled essay The Evolution of Intimate Relationship.

spirals,
arthur

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

L/L:  Photographic evidence?! :-O   now you have my intrigue piqued! 

Thanks for sharing the correction…. many a treasure inside!  I swear, everything (and I know I am universalizing) but its true… everything I read from RAM is liquid gold, an elixir, a gift of the “keep on giving” kind…. i keep being stunned. Shazam, i tell ya'!! He takes my intuits, my fumbles and blows them open with possibilities  (just corrected my typing as pissibilities ;-)  …

What's it like to work with him?  Is it worthwhile to invest time, energy, dinero to go to a workshop?  Any suggestions?

~ Stacy

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

I did a phone session with RAM this  last Wednesday. It's worth every penny, and then some.

Pelle

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

Teenie-Dakini: Thanks for sharing the correction…. many a treasure inside!  I swear, everything (and I know I am universalizing) but its true… everything I read from RAM is liquid gold, an elixir, a gift of the “keep on giving” kind…. i keep being stunned. Shazam, i tell ya'!! He takes my intuits, my fumbles and blows them open with possibilities  (just corrected my typing as pissibilities ;-)  …

What's it like to work with him?  Is it worthwhile to invest time, energy, dinero to go to a workshop?  Any suggestions?

~~~~~

Yes, Robert is wonderful, it's amazing to work with him.  He can take people very deep, and Liz, myself, and many people we know have done profoundly transformative work with him.  His sessions and workshops are a bit expensive - info on individual/couple sessions here, groupwork here - but they are potent; you get a lot of value for your money.  There are different advantages to individual and groupwork - in terms of the latter, the energy and dynamics of the group are very powerful, and I tend to learn quite a lot from participating in other's work, as well as my own.  And I love the experience of meeting people at the beginning of the workshop, and then seeing how beautifully open everyone is at the end of the day, after we've all done intense work together.

When we have the IIzaadz Gathering in 2008, we plan to have a workshop with Robert as the centerpiece; we did that in the Vancouver Gathering in 2006 and it was a deeply tranformative experience for all involved.

Robert does work by phone, and I know a number of people who have tested the waters that way (because they live far away) and have been impressed by the results, often subsequently doing face-to-face work with him at a later date.  (If you decide to do a workshop with him at some point, it's quite valuable - though not necessary in any way - to do an individual session with him, by phone or in person, beforehand.)

This excerpt from something of his I posted recently (Into the Heart of Fear) provides an example of his work:

~~~~~

Lorraine (in a group that I’m leading) is talking casually about what she has been ”going through.” This is my first encounter with her. The more she talks, the less confident she becomes. Soon, she’s saying how scared she sometimes gets, and how close, how very close, she has come to killing herself, sometimes holding a rifle to her head. Everyone is very still. Her right eye starts to widen and drift a little, losing focus.

I sense that she is far, far more terrified than she is showing. Though she is young and healthy-looking, she appears extremely fragile now, as if she is about to be swallowed up by something enormous. Her features are beginning to swim and eddy in my vision; the room is quickly shedding its familiarity. There’s a long pause, and then I ask her what she sees.

Blackness, she whispers. No faces, no room, nobody, just blackness. I feel very connected to her in the enormity of her terror, and also in her terror of her terror. No longer can she speak; her eyes are rolling with horror.

I have her interlace fingers with me. She grips very hard, and starts to scream, wildly but not fully – she’s not so much expressing her madness as trying to get away from it. She is so, so afraid. The intensity is escalating. Quickly, I help her roll onto her back, knees up. She is shaking violently, and is fighting it. Guided by the half-dammed currents of the forces surfacing in her, I work with her body and breath, rapidly but not-too-rapidly loosening her diaphragm, her belly and solar plexus, her neck and jaw. There is no map for this, no preset somatic sequence or protocol.

Primal terror, trust, intuition, awareness, spawning through their meeting and mingling fitting directions and actions.

Now the energy, less and less an “it,” is not contained anywhere in particular. Lorraine is no longer “just” Lorraine, but is raw aliveness bursting with presence. Her screaming, now full-bodied, gives me gooseflesh and rips into my heart. I ask the group to breathe more deeply, to come closer to us and to each other.

Her terror is, it seems to me, not only hers, but mine as well, and all of ours. Terror of what? For her, extreme danger, seemingly represented by an all-consuming blackness, immeasurable and timeless darkness, forever edgeless.

I ask her to open her eyes. She is obviously still scared, but now not so overwhelmingly. Look into my eyes, I say, and let the terror, the darkness, the craziness, whatever it is, come out through your eyes, your throat, your whole body, but keep eye contact with me. As she does so, her expression changes dramatically.

No longer is she a terrified young woman looking at me, but something much, much older and darker, streaming with enormous power, pouring into me. Pouring and pouring, pouring into and through me. An avalanche of energy. Now it’s no longer an “it” but only reclaimed her. And reclaimed us. This lasts for perhaps two minutes.

She sits up and I hold her while she cries and cries. Many in the group are also crying. Gradually, she settles into a deeply relaxed, very loving state, a kind of “second” innocence that gives her faith in her capacity to continue her healing.

(Note: I don’t recommend making such catharsis a goal, especially so soon, but there are times – as with Lorraine – which demand responses that both energetically match and take care of what is being presented. Sometimes a particular opening with someone may necessitate many months of preparation, whereas at other times, to delay such an opening for even one session would be a disservice to that person.)

~~~~~

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

First time that I have heard KW speak.  Compared to RAM (@8-9 on 10 scale of verbal authenticity) KW is 5, maybe 6 at best.  KW, caught in the spotlight of his own brilliance, does not pay enough attention to his cadence and tone thus reveals a deep condescension via quick, carefully modulated catch phrases that all but end in an “eh?”  KW's true enthusiasm revealed around “upcoming I-I products.”  He flat dismissed any responsibility or concern for the forum problems and I am disappointed that that wasn't pursued.

Liz, I will give you a solid 8 on the MQS verbal authenticity “bullshit detector” test and Arthur about the same.  You both however, left your piratitudes in the green room.  Tsk, tsk.

KW is a very manipulative and seductive conversationalist.  The “um,” “ah,” “oh,” and “mmm..hmmm” interjections into another's dialogue (Liz) seemed to soften you right up and douse whatever fire you brought to the table.  Just sayin' girl.

KW needs a head on confrontation about the real directions that the I-I is headed.  I smell a Davey Crockett-style commercialization debacle about to unfold.

Yer pal,
Michael

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

Actually, Michael, they left my piratitude on the cutting room floor, which is what I alluded to. I said it was just as well, since there's been enough controversy. I don't feel any chagrin at all for not being tough enough with him. You don't really know what was said unless you listened to the entire call, which was five hours long, with several people, and multiple conversational threads that ran through it. I am entirely satisfied with what we set out to do, which was to bring Ken's attention to the forums (in addition to getting our questions answered). I have no control over what I-I chooses to delete from the conversation.

If it makes you feel any better, Arthur discussed the problems with the IN forum on one of the “Shadow” calls at length with Ken, and he seemed to be genuinely concerned, though he'd had no prior knowledge of what was happening. Again, that portion of the call did not make it to the final edit.

That said, Ken does seem to trigger a certain kind of person. His arrogance sets off others with a similar shadow.

Liz

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

Liz

Ok, let me see if I understand this scenario correctly:  the IN Forum environment, set up by the Institute (KW's baby) is left to its own devices with minimal and apparently ineffective moderation.  Various waves of trollish turmoil ensue occasionally spilling over into I-I Zaadz where moderation is strong and appropriate.  Very good people are fired, both women, and each time there is an upwelling of righteous feminine sentiment that androcentrism, sexism, chauvinism and agenic shadow are rife at the upper levels of II mgt. Again, both women and men expressed genuine concern.  II mgt (Robb, endorsed by KW) respond peremptorily, petulantly and dismissively clearly indicating that they do not consider the forums to be of any particular strategic interest and, by inference, the posters of any significant concern.

Hence, the discussion moves to I-I Zaadz where trolls will not follow as they know they will be booted by the moderation here.  Many of us here at I-I Zaadz have not been part of the long and turbulent history at IN.  I only signed up Friday so as to hear for myself what KW would say to you when the questions were raised.  I have been sufficiently impressed with your “confrontational piratitude” on previous occasions and was struck by your fervor and that of several other women, again, on this same issue, and longed to hear this energy laid on the II boardroom table.

Now, as you say, that part of the conversation may have been left on the cutting room floor, but my question is “Why?”  Why are you not pissed off that it was cut out?

Liz, you said “Arthur discussed the problems with the IN forum on one of the “Shadow” calls at length with Ken, and he seemed to be genuinely concerned, though he'd had no prior knowledge of what was happening. Again, that portion of the call did not make it to the final edit.”

WTF?  No prior knowledge?  The “Shadow” calls were over a month ago.  Why has nothing been done?  Where was KW's “genuine concern” that he got earlier from Arthur expressed in the parts of your recent conversation with him that were actually aired.  My read on his comments is that he still could give a shit and assumes no responsibility for the very forums that he commissioned.  He obviously didn't clue his CEO in about any “genuine concern.”

I really don't have that big a gripe with KW.  He's just another guy trying to up his sexy pirate/philosopher/king status.  He said it clearly, he doesn't want to be anybody's guru and is going to let his invention, AQAL, stand up there and take the hits for him.  He's done with the invention part and now he wants to get on to the marketing, licensing, and royalties business.  IMO the II is on a direct course towards the identical cooptation track that all spiritual innovation seems to follow:  breakthrough insights lead to lionization of “insightful one;” lionization distracts and corrupts insightful one; sycophants arise to the whiff of opportunity, institutionalization arises, gnostic beginnings are abandoned in favor of literalist hegemony, doctrinaire fundamentalism and the inevitable condescension that comes with it arises, commercialization begins.  Turquoise/2^nd tier my ass.

This last rumble in the gender jungle on I-I Zaadz seemed to me to be a direct outgrowth of the lack of mgt on the IN Forum compounded by the recent firing … It was as if the IN gripe moved over here to I-IZ and developed into a series of threads where men and women again aired their mutual and disparate grievances.  Many strong things were said on and across both sides of the aisle.  One of the consensus points of agreement was that the II mgt (Ken and Robb specifically) had their heads up their asses regarding the value of the IN and I-IZ. forums and were clueless at best, or complicit at worst in their efforts to keep the masculine halls of Moctezuma from being tainted by feminism.  Susan Cook-Greuter's name was embarrassinly raised as proof that the II is not sexist or androcentric - “She is,” after all, “a founding member of the II.”

I am pissed that you are not still pissed Liz.  Just sayin'.

Liz, you said,  “That said, Ken does seem to trigger a certain kind of person. His arrogance sets off others with a similar shadow.”

If this is some kind of oblique reference (judgment) regarding me, it is beneath you, or at least beneath the person that I thought was you.  Besides (heh heh) there is nothing shadowed about my arrogance.  It is right out front where I and everybody else can keep an eye on it.  I don't point the pontificating finger at myself for nothin'.

Still yer pal,

Michael

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

Ah, I see. Well, I can't stay pissed forever, can I? We've been through this with everyone we could talk to, inside and outside of I-I, and gotten nowhere, really. At some point, further heckling just irritates people, and the folks over at I-I, and in the IN forum as well, are pretty sick of us, I think.

I'm not pissed that it ended up on the cutting room floor because I can see their perspective. They want to get on with the business at hand. For my part, much of what I know about the situation inside I-I was told to me in confidence, and I can't talk about it. I feel it's borderline unethical to even say that much! I will say that, to a person, all the people who've left I-I under less-than-happy circumstances who've talked to me have said that they still love Ken a great deal and believe in what he's doing. That says something. The integral perspective in this case is for me to accept that yes, I'm right (partially, at least) but that the greater good is for me to let it go and try to change the world via things I can actually do, instead of berating folks who are, after all, simply doing their best, no matter how flawed I perceive their actions to be.

Ken has said, and I think this is really freaking excellent advice, that those who would criticize him or his theories should criticize by doing. Make a better theory, or create a better company, and get out there and make a difference. This is, by the way, what all the ex-I-I employees that I know of are, in fact, doing. So perhaps his means are more skillful than I ever thought.

Liz

P.S. Point taken about your arrogance. Ken also says his arrogance is out there for everyone to see. I don't know that it's shadow, then. Alpha males wanting to be top dog, perhaps? All I know is that I know two other extremely successful and highly evolved men (published integral authors and whom I know in person) who've bristled at Ken, and it seems to be a pattern. Make of it what you will!

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

I have read Liz's reply and support it 100%.  :)

arthur 

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

Mateys,

Ok, fair enough.  My concern is for the message.  I know that once the syndication, serialization, and product development forces begin to have their way, the message tends to slow its unfolding if not stop all together.  Soon, people buying expensive product that requires a significant time investment to optimize, will resent the hell out of II v.2, II v.2.2, II v.3, and so on.  Changes to the message will become highly politicized and threatening.  More and more, a corporate governance will come to manage the “emergence” of what is an essentially, effulgent, unmanageable, explication of the spiritual dimension.  The II risks being rendered as mundane and bourgeoise as Microsoft.  KW and others have seen a light, perhaps the light, and, having a rough idea how they got there, have invented some shtick that looks like it might help people grope along a bit better than we have for a while.  I would far rather see KW and the II stay focused on the message development side.  This focus would necessarily include the right-sizing of the masc./fem. issues which have never received anything more than faint attention imo.  It would also include a reassessment of the AQAL model as possibly the most dyslexia-inducing confabulation ever.

peace and beads, and yer right, no one should stay pissed forever but I know that anger can be highly creative and constructive while resentment and rage are ever corrosive and destructive.  As far as my arrogance is concerned, well it comes and goes.  I have tried false modesty at times.  Arrogance suits me better

yer pal,
Michael

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

Big smiles to you, Michael.

I don't think you need to worry about “integral” being owned in some way by the BBG. It has legs of its own, as evidenced by its phenomenal growth even in the past few years.

It is (she said dramatically) bigger than all of us.

Liz

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

Michael: I have tried false modesty at times.  Arrogance suits me better.

Hey buddy - fair enough, but I urge you not to prematurely give up on the cultivation of genuine humility.  :p

yer pal and mine,
me

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

BTW at around this point in the sister thread on the 'plex, someone tries to make the silly claim that RAM is at green and/or the people he appeals to are at green.  I refute it thus: yuk yuk yuk har har hardy har har.  (More sophisticated arguments presented in the other thread.)

cheers,
arthur

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

It's a classic case of Teal thinking that Turquoise and above is Green.
There really is no way of fighting that, but I couldn't help posting something anyway.


Pelle

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

Please, please, let it die…

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

Arthur:  I refute it thus: yuk yuk yuk har har hardy har har.



 I wish I'd thought of using that irrefutable argument many times before   .

Thanks so much. Now I'm all set.

M

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

I think your assessments of the situation have a lot of accuracy to them Michael.

But, given the nature of human beings, group process, and the effects of business and fame, there isn't much one can do about this kind of fossilization.

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

Damn, I love y'all!
Good to hear your voice Liz. To me your voice is the picture worth a thousand words. And  Arthur, nice avatar photo.

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

Lauren wrote of Liz: your voice is the picture worth a thousand words

Isn't it, though? Full of light and mirth. Soft and strong. And add to that her radiant and delightfully empathetic physical presence – makes for a remarkable woman!

Y'all have simply got to make it to the 2008 gathering …

Mary

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

Liz Im listening to your voice right now.  It makes me feel closer to you in a way that words on a page just dont open up.  It will be even more exciting to meet you.


Gitanjali

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

I'm pretty good at taking a compliment, and happy to do so. Just don't inflate your idea of who I am and get all disappointed at the gathering!

Liz

Re: Tamgoddess Liz and Ken Hash It Out!

Liz: I'm pretty good at taking a compliment, and happy to do so. Just don't inflate your idea of who I am and get all disappointed at the gathering!

~~~~~

And don't stare at her for too long - she hates that!  :p

Seriously, don't overinflate your expectations.  The gathering will be what it will be - probably better if you don't build it up to much.  Works with movies and lots of other stuff too.

That said, I'm so looking forward to meeting some of my fellow IIzaadzsters! 

spirals,
arthur