Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

When my daughter was in middle school she wanted to buy a costume that was from the 'adult' costume store … we went and after looking over several, I agreed to a Mad Hatter costume.    I had issues with this whole process but walked through it with her and it ended up ok…

When I saw  article this morning it brought me back to that experience and prompted the exploration of the over sexualization of young women.  My first thought was, if we go too far the back lash to over conservative will not be good either.It is seemingly obvious that in the US the sexualization of young girls is reaching a strong swell of acceptance. 

Do we just accept the fact that it is everywhere and we have to go with it?  I don't see it as a morality issue as much as a developmental skip.  As a parent, it would be my dream for my daughter to go through her developmental stages and come out the other side more 'normal' than pathological. 

Does dressing too sexy at 11 make a girl develomentally stunted?

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Gina,

I think so. Without question. (That is, are Halloween costumes for little girls too sexy?) I find it pathetic, astonishing, stupid and a whole bunch of other things. Fortunately my wife agrees.

As far as arrested development? Contrary to what many might believe, the “modesty” and so forth that is associated with amber is something which arises naturally. It is most definitely about increasing self consciousness and consciousness of the perspectives of others. So, you break that apart, deconstruct it, obliterate it -and, on top of that, teach young people that it is wrong, stupid, bad in some way - what are you left with but red?

A few years ago we went to buy some jeans for the girls and the only thing available for our FOUR YEAR OLD was jeans in the style of Brittany Spears. That is, low cut, one micrometer abover her vagina and ass crack.  A four year old?

Look, I don't care who I might offend or make mad here. I find this just stupid, ridiculous and quite frankly frightening.

Footnote. Okay, so tribal people are naked all the time or whatever. I rest my case. It's boomeritis, and the sexual thing is the horrors of flatland. Speaking again as not only a parent but a former teacher, if anyone thinks that all of this is “good” for them … well, I sorely disagree. I know I still need education in the female mind and differing worldview, selfview, etc. but, doesn't this just teach me (if I am a girl) that my greatest virtue is as sexual object? I have seen what this develops into and it is indeed that. I don't know what is liberating about this. As far as I can tell, it is an overpowering entrappment. Young women are more ensnared into their potential -and least meaningful -function sexually, then ever.

Why does a seven year old girl who wants to be a pirate have to be a “sexy” pirate? Your role in society is pretty set there, IMO. Girls = sex.   … and don't get pregnant, and while all these images of sexualized women are okay even for kids, breast feeding in public is something uncomfortable (please cover yourself and the baby, leave or go to this special confined room we have set up for you so we do not have to see) and … 

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

I dunno. But I've got an 11yo and please let me know if you get it figured out…

She's going as a car hop this year. It's such a fine line. She's a sexual person, being human and all, but where the line is drawn is anyone's guess. She's always been so self-directed that I haven't worried about her too much. I tend to just hold her back a bit so she knows that there's no rush. Not that she isn't in a hurry. But I'd like her to savor the changes…so far so good.

Liz

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Gee Tim, tell us what you really think   :P

Here's the link that didn't show on my orginal post ( I am having some issues posting here today)

Liz, I am lucky too in that my daugher seems to have a fairly good self regulator on most things.  The funny thing about the whole Mad Hatter costume is she looks back on it now as a 'what was I thinking' moment.  ahh, what 4 years can do… now to get through the next 4 or so!

So if girls are jumping stages with butt crack jeans, what is the masculine equivolent of too sexualized?

(oh and Liz, sorry for all the typo's…. )

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

what is the masculine equivolent of too sexualized?

I do think this is a very interesting question but, I don't think there is one. Oh now, wait a minute, that's too naive an answer. It's just different. Hmm . .

Honestly? I think it's what we were talking about on the Wolf pornography thread. Further, speaking as a former boy … . I have long thought that girls and women do not understand what constanly sexually displayed female bodies can and do do to a (heterosexual) boy. And yet his sexual attraction to such is often seen as something that needs to be repressed, it makes him an animal, an ape, bad and so on (unless, of course, we're interested in that boy, but even then, sometimes) and quite frankly … this has a good deal to do with the porn refuge …

No question these are SUPER complicated matters. And no question I think we have way more questions than answers. But, those are at least a few thoughts.

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Pirate costumes for boys…that's one of the things I've bought for my daughter in the past. She's totally fine with that.

And Tim, I can't help but wonder if your location has something to do with your clothing problems. I can always find appropriate clothes, though I do pass on a lot of really disgusting stuff.

Liz

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

If I'm not mistaken this was just from Target or some other national chain.

And that's a good idea.

Buy the boy costumes.

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

So it is my sincere desire to talk about this subject without falling into the masc/fem feminine dynamic of sexuality.  Having said that, I know full well that is exactly what this is hidden inside the french maid costume for 10 year olds.

Here are some possible hot spots.  If as an overly accepting parent who allow their children to run amok in their own lives, one decides that if Jenny wants to be a little french maid then she should be one.  Or, is it the same mom who is putting her 11 year old daughter on a diet because she is wearing a size 14 already and she doesn't want her to be 'fat'. 

And what about the boys?  Is it ok for them to dress as pimps at 11?  Why?  What about gangsta rap stars or Donald Trump? 

Is this only a hot spot because it is our desire to protect our daughters?  

Or maybe it's just me.  

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Gina, as the father of a five-year-old boy, I was thinking about your question about comparable age-inappropriate trends being pushed on boys.  And my first thought was that it doesn't appear to be as bad for boys.  But my second thought was that the selling of the gangsta and pimp cultures to young boys really annoys me, and I think it's harmful.  As a father, I will definitely resist it.

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

I agree with Bruce. I would not be happy about my son dressing as a pimp or “gansta'” for Halloween. Now I wish I hadn't thrown out that Haloween costume catalogue we got in the mail last week or so  -(incidentally, for exactly the reason we are talking about). I want to look back and see what's in their for boys. My son is Thomas the Train this year, second year running, and as far as I am concerned being “a really useful engine” (story and characters originated by an Anglican priest) is pretty healthy for a 3.5 year old.

The gangsta' thing is just role model for boy as big fat loser … Not much better than the chamber maid but certainly complimentary, no? Does anyone smell Boomeritis? And lovely orange serving it up and capitalizing on it?

Are we trying to protect our daughters and I would say the answer is yes and so what? I said on the porn thread that is the no.1 problem -the no.1 consistent factor -in all “teens gone wild” that never made it back or at least went far enough to have multiple serious regrets - parents believeing they are doing the right thing by “letting them be” or letting them “live their lives” and so on and so forth. This idea has interesting consequences across levels.

I really think we have to come to face the fact that as parents we are more and more culturally and societally disempowered by a consistent sick relationship between orange and green. Ex. children can be given condoms at school without parental notification. What does this mean? Well for green it means no parents in the way of our “freedom” being projected onto eleven year olds and for orange it means, great, a big boon in condom sales!

I think I'm way off topic now.

I don't understand why a seven year old girl needs to be sexy. I don't like it for eleven year old's either. This is very, very, very sad cultural conditioning. And I don't think it's cute.

Gina, you said your daughter said “What was I thinking?” I'm interested in more on that, in the sense that, it seems to me… .well think about it. The child is not sexual on any adult level yet. Nor even conscious of what the more grown up implications are. Then, when that day comes? Kids don't know any better. And that's the problem. We can think of truly legitimate reasons to be concerned about someone's weight that aren't pathological. I can't think of any legitimate reasons my daughter needs to be a sexy pirate … or figure out later that's what she was at seven years old … or four years old  … or ….

Hope I'm not sounding like a total fundamentalist here. But does anyone agree? Incidentally, please, anyone with a challenge to anything I have said, speak up, challenge it, whatever.

Oh, just burn the fucking costumes and be done with it.

(PS -I did start thinking this the other day. Is this what I have to face as a parent as each Halloween rolls around? Just another reason to dred another event in children's lives that used to be something to look forward to …)

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Tim, I couldn't agree more. Children need very strong boundaries. As durable and sensible as nurse's shoes. If I were a girl growing up in this culture (USA), I would want someone to tell me (with conviction and intensity) that, no matter how many of my schoolmates run around dressed like whores and pimps, we, in this family, are different, we are special in that we understand that we don't need to attract peeps who want to use us for something, whatever it might be. Instill some backbone to buck the most harmful objectification trends in the fashion industry. Dress like nobody else does: a three piece suit, buttoned up to the t's!

I think people at green and beyond tend to be so accommodating, it becomes too easy for the tail to wag the dogs. But hell, it would be very difficult for me to stick to strong boundaries if I actually had human children. Having said that, disregard this whole post.

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

I know what Tim's family will be dressed up as for this Halloween…Puritans. Or will they bust out the burkas…I mean, white sheets and all be ghosts. JK buddy, I was with you till the breast feeding comment. When I was about 12, I went to Europe (Germany, Sweden, Denmark) and they had semi nude women in advertisements and some TV shows (against the law here). I was a bit shocked but everyone there seemed to think it was no big deal. So it seems they were capable of differentiating the images of the body from thoughts about sex.

There is one thing I know about kids (and now cats), if you want them to really want to do something, prohibit it. So, reality check for all you well meaning but over reacting parents…IT IS HALLOWEEN!!…one day a year the kids can decide to be someone they are NOT. So instead of just buggin' on the costume, you have a window into their minds at this moment in time by asking them, 'what do you want to be for Halloween?'. The answer will more than likely be 100% honest. From that point of honesty you can then ask, 'Why do you want to be that?' and get a further inkling into the workings of your kids mind. So instead of using this day (their one day they can go semi-nuts and have fun with all the kids of the neighborhood) to further instill into them your fears and shadows about life, use this day to try and understand where they are at in a fun and not so serious (non-developmental) manner.

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Wow, that is just so insightful. I'd never thought about any of that before.

You did seem to just about 100% misread the breastfeeding comment. But who's counting.

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

“I know what Tim's family will be dressed up as for this Halloween…Puritans. Or will they bust out the burkas…”

E, your comment seemed deliberately written to provoke, and as a moderator, I'm telling you to knock it off. I am feeling the need to draw a much firmer line with this sort of post. I don't care if you're kidding or not, this is something that can be seen as not in line with the road rules and your highest self, so don't. I'm sick of jabs masquerading as humor, and I'm not tolerating it anymore. I am not trying to single you out; there are lots of folks who have been lax with this, and you are just the first to be called on it.

Liz

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

This thread reminded me of an essay I read a while ago: The Mind-Booty Problem: Rethinking the Age of Sexual Consent by William Saltan.

What a disturbing issue this is!  My culture is so messed up and contradictory on sexual issues.

I highly recommend the movie Thirteen for one perspective on the pressures and influences on American girls entering puberty.

spiral out,
arthur

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

I may have mentioned this before but I did rent 13 when my daughter turned 13 and we sat together and watched it.  Part of me knew I was doing it as a 'scare tactic' and yet I also wanted her to be aware of what she had ….. choice.  We had a nice conversation about the movie afterward and to this day she talks about how it effected her.

So much so…….. she is currently an amber born again christian who recently opted to receive a baptism.  But THAT is another thread.

e, my issue with your comments are that seem to be based in the 'let them eat cake' variety of parenting I find so disturbing in the green first tier thinking.  Also, it strikes me that you may not have children which I don't think should exclude you from the conversation but does lean toward a less than insightful response.  AND…….. part of me sees your point, it is Halloween and it is supposed to be fun

Let me know how fun it is for you when your 13 year old daughter wants to be a naughty nurse and go door to door looking for 'treats.

ah, balance.

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Bruce:
But my second thought was that the selling of the gangsta and pimp cultures to young boys really annoys me, and I think it's harmful.  As a father, I will definitely resist it.

That's great, Bruce.

I'm appalled that gangsta rap is becoming main stream. Why the fuck would we want to give our money to Red assholes?

I love certain kinds of rap, and I love how rap can convey the rawness of life, but I refuse to buy songs where the lyrics are simply one long variation on the phrase “I'm gonna fuck me some stupid bitches and hos”.

I'm not a prude, and I don't mind rappers using strong words if it's part of telling a real life story, but gangsta rappers?…. please…. let's move past them


Pelle

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Gina, Arthur

Is Thirteen as useful a discussion vehicle for boys as for girls do you think?

Halloween costumes in the UK are still of the scary variety (we're still catching up with the whole trick or treating thing) and I haven't noticed any overtly sexy outfits - but then I am looking for boys' stuff not girls'.
I believe in strong boundaries, usually with a discussion along the lines of 'its about valuing yourself, if you don't value yourself no-one else will'. Kids can go wild and have fun without having to be sexy. It is about having the emotional maturity to handle everything that goes with being/looking sexy (as in the mind-booty article) which kids and even older adolescents just don't have.

Juliee

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

One of the beautiful things about Thirteen is that it was actually written by NIkki Reed, a young girl who was not much older than that at the time, so it is an authentic expression of the interiors of this age in our culture at this time. She also plays the “bad influence” friend in the film. Kudos to the film-makers for producting it.

I don't know that it's such a great thing for boys of the same age though.  Later, sure. What we need is an equivilent for boys from a boy's psyche and life experience. Not that I think there would be any big problem in watching it. I just think, for a thirteen year old boy, or around that age, it's definitely a chick flick and in that sense may not be all that accessible. My opinion.


The ancient feast of Samhein -later transformed by the Roman Catholic Church into Halloween (all hallows eve) -used to be the new year celebration. The tradition of dressing up was actually  a version of the same new year's resolution we like to make today. People dressed as what they wanted, intended to be for the next year. So it is a tradition definitely related to self, self expression, healthy growth, transformation, role exploration.

Being magical it is of course well suited to children, who naturally do the same. Exploration of cultural and societal roles is an innate part of development. As e says, this aspect is innate in the human psyche.

Which, is exactly all the more reason to question “major flirt” as a seven year old's self-expression and exploration of cultural roles on Halloween.

We might make an equation:

Halloween costumes = growth of self and psyche
Halloween Whore-Whitch = ?

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

I'm going to semi-retract my statement about that movie for boys above. The non-present dad who is incapable of understanding his daughter is a really good thing for young boys to see. In fact, it's a great thing for any man, certainly any father of a daughter, to see.

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

By the way, hysterical amber parent update (since of course, all parents are amber and hysterical)  - little red fourth grader came to school eqipt with his knife today and threatened my daughter and her friends. (“I'll stabb you if you tell.” ) Luckily they were confident enough to tell.

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Tim, sorry to hear about  your daughters confrontation.  How very brave.

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

No problem Liz but I think you overreacted a bit. You could of PM'd  me to ascertain my intentions. You can see from my post I put a JK (just kidding) after that sentence. I really was being 100% playful and not trying to provoke or jab at all, etc.  I hope, after being here awhile, you can tell I am not the hurting type and when I am sarcastic it is always in a jesting manner. But then again Tim did come back a bit sarcastic and he also felt I misunderstood him so let me be explicit.

(100% serious)

Tim, my friend, I mean and meant you and your family no harm. If you felt that in anyway, please accept my humblest apologies as that was not my intention. I was not trying to have fun at your expense. I'm truly sorry buddy!! No blood, no foul!?!

(50% serious/50% playful)

You know my sister got a bit conservative, cranky and serious up until her 2 girls went away to college. Now she is back to her carefree and jovial self. So maybe it is just you Liz, you still taking aikido? :-)

(100% serious) I gave the People Scan test to some colleagues here at work and 2 women with kids each had a unique values graph. They had 2 high peaks of acceptance (most folks only had 1) at Amber and Green. I attributed the Amber peaks to their recent divorces (their husbands conduct was questionable and so the ethical moralizing came out very strong) and the fact that they were raising kids. It seemed the kids made them more conservative (amber). That is, as responsible parents, the life conditions (kids) made them adopt more Amber values to help transition their kids from Red to Amber. Maybe something to think about if you have kids and a new found conservatism.

Gina, I don't have kids but they are all around me and I was one once. Also, my wife is a clinical social worker so the stories I get daily range from common teenage angst to foster kid horrors. If I had kids, I would raise them the way I was raised. i.e. like a sheppard on a hill. I would let them make their own mistakes (sans real danger) and intervene when necessary.

Re: Let me know how fun it is for you when your 13 year old daughter wants to be a naughty nurse and go door to door looking for 'treats.

I wouldn't worry about it in this context. If I saw her putting the outfit into her backpack and then tell me she was going to her older boyfriend's house, then I would worry i.e. she was about to become the treat!! The overarching point I was trying to make within this thread was, just because I wanted to be a vampire when I was 8 does not mean I wanted to bite and drain people of blood.

–

Arthur >> nice article on the current difficulties with teen sex, etc. We want our kids to be super smart (develop cognitively) but it seems at times we don't want them to develop psychosexually and our culture does not offer much assistance with supportive structures (i.e. Joseph Campbell myths, rites of passage, etc.). How can we desire one line of development for kids and wish to inhibit another? Is that realistic and even possible at this stage of the game? Is it even ‘ethical' (please read I am not advocating teen sex or commenting on anyone here's parenting)?


BOO!!!  (really hope I did not overly scare anyone :)

e

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

E, I'm fine with you joking, and I've never heard of JK before, so it went right past me. However, I don't care for you telling me I'm overreacting. My reactions may seem excessive from your point of view, but as an experienced moderator, I stepped in when I thought it was appropriate. This medium is just inherently difficult and can flame up when strong feelings are involved, as they are with children.

As to your points about parents getting conservative, I have not. I do sometimes come down hard in the amber camp when necessary for my children's development, but that's just a tool in the toolbox, not my CoG. I'd wager when folks are using those tools they appear more conservative than they are. I have seen this as hyposcrisy in some folks who do this very unconsciously.

Having just experienced a divorce for the reasons you cited in your post, I can tell you I went through about a 36 hour period of righteous amber indignation (Ok, this is why I don't own a gun), but then I snapped out of it. I went through that particularly fast, but I also have a commitment to awakening, so I'm much more brutally honest with myself than most non-seekers. (As in, why did he stray? It was a two-way street and blame just didn't cut it.)

As for not having kids, sorry, dude. The rubber only hits the road when the kid is yours. I used to hate it when parents pulled that trump card, but I'm afraid it's true. Arthur is learning that as a stepparent, he's caring about my kids much more than he ever expected, and he might be a good person to talk about that. Bonding with a child is a unique process and isn't really comparable to anything else.

This is not to say you can't have a valid opinion. You just can't know how you would react if it were you.

Liz

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

The overarching point I was trying to make within this thread was, just because I wanted to be a vampire when I was 8 does not mean I wanted to bite and drain people of blood.

I am certain that there is not an individual in on this conversation, or even to found in this entire community, that actually possesses such or similar attitude. However, it is also true that part of the value of pretend play -which is what Halloweeen very much is to some extent -is to explore aspects of our own natures in a fictional, and thus safe, manner. Even the children do not believe they are really a vampire and this has been and so can be now -empirically varified. (I'm actually writing an article on this subject at the moment.)

However, I don't think there is any escaping the fact that things get very tricky -no pun intended -when we start talking about kids and sex. Especially prepubescent kids. The best I beleive that can be said is that in a presumably innocent, safe, loving and consequence free environment we could say that it is “cute.”   … . but doesn't even that begin to feel creepy (literally so) on some level inevitably? Please, if you haven't go and check out the article Gina linked and the pictures. At what point do we begin to say there is just something simply not right about this?

I was thinking this morning about the fact that - which I said to some extent above -one of the “warning” aspects of this is how easily children can be exploited sexually - for the simple fact that they are not yet mature sexually (and in the way that article linked by Arthur outlines). Even if it is for supposedly just “cute” purposes it does not appear to be healthy.

I could give examples but I gotta go.

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

I think these pictures really illustrate the point in a creepy way. The first one is a Disney costume for a girl to dress up like the female character in Pirates of the Carribean, compared to the first pirate in the second photo, who looks like she's been sold into prostitution.

I followed Gina's link for those photos.

Liz

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Hi e!

Quick note:  it isn't one night, Halloween.  Not in my experience.  In my household we have been talking about costumes for at least a month. The stores have had decorations up for at least that long too.  Birthday parties have had a Halloween theme, parks have had Halloween events, YMCA events, Rennaissance Festival had the theme, school parties, neighborhood party and now Halloween…. whew!

And I was taken aback when my 7 year old daughter tried on an outfit and exclaimed “I'll be attractive in this!”  Aghast… I did not know that she knew the word “attractive”  and upon asking, she doesn't really.  But she had overheard it….

And Liz!  I would LOVE it if there was more discernment from folks of whether someone is using a TOOL or is established in that position.  I see it as my job as parent to have my rainbow toolbox and to be able to orchestrate a response that is appropriate to the situation (child, environment, behavior, etc).  In my view, my child doesn't need to know about the complexity of choices that I have access to in my toolbox…. 

~Stacy

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Liz, you forgot “Major Flirt”

Check out the description:

“Make any soldier with an attitude drop and give you twenty when you suit up as Major Flirt, the highest-ranking Drama Queen in the army! This classic girls costume comes with military green dress, vinyl studded belt, Major General's hat and matching glovettes–all you'll need to get them to stand at A-tten-tion!”

Stacy said:

I did not know that she knew the word “attractive”  and upon asking, she doesn't really.

This is so common now days -and with more aghast worthy concepts -but that really is the point: they know this, they learn it, they mimick it, they try and understand and emulate it … but they don't really.

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

I wouldn't worry about it in this context

I don't know e, that whole paragraph seems to miss the point of the thread.   All of us would be concerned in the circumstances you described.  What this conversation is about is the need and promotion of little girls to sexualize themselves (at least that is why I started it to begin with)

Maybe you are playing devil's advocate and just taking the other side to create lively dialog or maybe because of your wife's exposure to at risk youth that changes what you see as acceptable or normal. 

Or maybe I just need to watch Little Miss Sunshine again to be able to laugh at the distortion of it all.

Oh, and Juliee!
I kept meaning to answer your question about whether it is for boys or not.  The real answer is of course, depends on the boy.  Tim laid it out pretty well in his first post and I can also see how a sensitive aware young man could gain a whole new perspective seeing the types of pressures girls face.

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

I agree with that too, but you know what, after thinkiing about it, I think of the average boy reaction much like the boy -the older brother -in the film. It's a very accurate depiction of reality. He has no idea what is going on -as in, no idea how to understand his sister, her behavior, problems and especially her friend. I've seen the same play out in real-time.

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Gina, Tim

I think I'll watch it myself and then consider its suitability. I have broached the subject of the different perceptions of teenage boys and girls around sex, relationships etc before but I struggle on the boys 'side' having gone to an all girls convent school and had no brothers. i'm working off information gleaned from my husband by asking exasperated questions such as “Is this normal for boys?” !!!! So any additional perspectives on the boys side are welcome. Perhaps that's a new thread.

Juliee

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

I am not a parent but I find the following 2-cents' worth arising in me as I read this thread:

It's my impression that there are cultures (fictional or real or possible) in which children learn a physically-emotionally-mentally-spiritually-socially healthy sexuality and are evolving all through their childhood toward a healthy sexual adulthood. I believe children are not naturally a-sexual beings, but their normal healthy sensuality or pre-sexuality is different from adult sexuality or sensuality.

It's the depersonalized, commercialized, dehumanized, despiritualized, [fill in half a dozen other adjectives] sexuality of this culture that is to me so nauseating and repulsive and frightening and sad, in both adults and children.  I see most of what people are objecting to in this thread as connected with this particular sick warped sexual culture, not human nature's possibilities.

I guess I am suggesting some explicit differentiation here, and not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. And I am not in judgment when I use those strong adjectives above; my standard of evaluation is health, joy, and the highest of human possibilities, not some moral matter. Health, not moral good, in other words, is my concern. Or perhaps health IS my morality….

And I do think children, boys and girls, are getting overly sexualized these days, unhealthily so, and if you wanna know, it is IMHO largely  because puberty is moving downward in age due to all the xenoestrogens in our toxic environment. Health care workers are getting more and more alarmed at the earlier and earlier physical puberty showing up in thousands of cases. But on the psychological-social side, the advertising industry bears some responsibility as well, for what we are seeing that we don't like that is being discussed here in this thread.

Blessings, OM Bastet 

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I must be an old fashion fart. I grew up in the sixties and the girls never wore stuff like this. I know we progress in the post-post modern times, but this is too far in my opinion. My daughters will not be wearing this stuff.

These kids look like hookers. What, are they handing out condoms along with the candy and a wink? Kids will have plenty of time to be adults and worry about unwanted pregnancies, abortion, AIDS, moral depriviation, adultery, pornography. Hey when you're 18, you too can get filmed and be posted on the internet humping that guy who's done 400 other women in the past year. I've always wondered about that, are you considered a prostitute if you perform sex on film for money? Anyway, that's off the topic. We might as well go back to the Roman times when a 13 year old was old enough to…

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

O M Bastet: I guess I am suggesting some explicit differentiation here, and not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. And I am not in judgment when I use those strong adjectives above; my standard of evaluation is health, joy, and the highest of human possibilities, not some moral matter. Health, not moral good, in other words, is my concern. Or perhaps health IS my morality….

Sounds like a good place to look at this from, health in all senses, physical, mental, emotional, spiritual… I like this idea.

Juliee

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Great post, OM. I think what you said was implicit, but perhaps important to make explicit.

Juliee, that's a good idea. Even with a 16yo boy myself, I don't really grok his interior, and his father isn't exactly the most verbally fluid person…they're much alike. How much would I want to know? Hmm.

I liked the point about early puberty. Here's an example: I have a friend who is really bad about her child's diet. When I met her, she and her daughter, who is my daughter's age, were both a bit on the chubby side. Both of them got fatter and fatter as the years went by. All of their lunches on the go consist of McDonald's, and it's a steady diet of junk all day. The girl went through early puberty starting at the age of seven. My daughter is only just beginning at the age of eleven, and is, in fact, behind where I was at that age.

There is a rule of thumb that girls need to reach about 100 pounds in order to begin menses. I've seen one after the other of the chubby girls in my daughter's grade mature physically. It's not rocket science, folks. And I wonder why there's so much “mystery” around this. Could it be that big pharma sees another market and doesn't want everone to know that we just need to step away from the fast food counter? Ah, but that's another topic! What a Pandora's box. Er, so to speak.

Alright, so aqal-ly speaking, theres is much that can be done. LR, our children can be fed and clothed in a manner that is healthy for their development. UR, you can create a social environment that fosters this, like living in a community of like-minded people, and sending your child to a school that reflects your values, keeping track of  the kids they hang out with, etc. In the left quadrants, you can make sure your children know your values every step of the way. Mine get really bored with me criticizing things they watch as “sexist” or just plain stupid, but I try to strike a balance so the seed is planted. I do hear back from them  some really sensisble stuff. My daughter complained that she's no longer allowed to sleep over at a boy friend's house because she's a girl. She said, “C'mon, he's like a brother to me!” So she's really aware of the notion of sexual tension between people and when it exists and when it doesn't. I just told her that different parents have different rules and that's just the way it is.

Have to stop here and take my kid to school.

Liz

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Liz said:

I've never heard of JK before…as an experienced moderator…

It is a very common internet acronym (ask your kids).

Having just experienced a divorce for the reasons you cited in your post, I went through that particularly fast, but I also have a commitment to awakening, so I'm much more brutally honest with myself than most non-seekers. (As in, why did he stray? It was a two-way street and blame just didn't cut it.)

Good for you Liz! Unfortunately for my co-workers it dragged on and on as did the blame game. But they do not have a commitment to awakening and so lack the corresponding clarity and integral resiliencies that often go hand and hand. Plus like you and Stacy alluded too, they were firmly planted in First Tier (at least that is what their values graph showed).

As for not having kids, sorry, dude…This is not to say you can't have a valid opinion. You just can't know how you would react if it were you.

Point well taken! But I am pretty chill and this seems like a pretty small fish to fry as a parent  (IMHO as a non-parent married to a social worker who instructs parents on how to parent).

Stacy >> OK, OK!!! Yes, Halloween is part of a season and depending of the (sub)culture can last from 1 day to 1 month up until all the crops are harvested. Still the same point…dress up, make believe, eat candy, pass out from the sugar rush. Get up, dress ‘normal' and go to school the next day.

OK picture one would have upset the sensibilities of 1920 and prior people. ‘Oh my god, look at the plunging neckline, how inappropriate!'

The other pictures below picture 1 upset the sensibilities of (I hate to say it) today's older generation who look at Britney as a whore corrupting the values of the youth. Like they looked at Madonna and Marilyn and Marlena Dietrich and the Monalisa (probably) and on and on it goes. You guys are old now!! lol

Anyone over 40 remember this ad and the stir it caused at the time when she was about 15?

—

Here is a stab as to how all this gets started…

We are born into an unfathomable situation. That situation is existence/non-existence. The only thing that can assuage, temper and ultimately dissolve the fear of non-existence is love. As babies, that love is mixed with other forms of attention and care. In some cases, if the love bond is strong enough, the baby can be weaned off of attention as love is in the environment and the parents can sleep at night (colic, et al notwithstanding). Feeling unloved and conflating attention with love, the young child seeks out attention. Enter the whore icon i.e. Britney. Herself fractured and in need of love but exhibiting quite well the time proven methods of how to get attention. The child mimics the whore icon for attention to the dismay of the parent (also lacking love and its ‘source') who fixates on the behavior (dressing sexy) and the constellation of objects (clothes) and misses the underlying ‘cause', the inability of the child to find the love source within. We are loveless and so create a loveless culture. But what do I know, I don't have any kids! ;-)


love

e

PS Gina, I NEVER play devils advocate. I hate when people do it to me and waste my time so I never do it. Like your idea of watching Little Miss Sunshine. There is a beautiful representation of a child who has a strong nurtured connection to the love source within.

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

E, I don't moderate children's forums, so I'm not exposed to much of that language. If you want to carry this to some absurd extreme, where I'm supposed to know everything before I act, then nothing would ever get done. We're grownups here, right? As I'd say to any preschooler struggling with self-expression, use your words. Drop the defenses and just get on with it.

Liz

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

And the current status of Brittany's role model/example of healthy femanine development is?

Lindsey Lohan's is?

Etc.?

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

I just have to ask what the heck is wrong with parents these days? I saw a brief TV spot on girls in general wearing clothes that were too sexy because of cultural pressure and one of the fathers was kind of throwing his hands up in the air saying, “Well, what can you do?”

Umm…you're her FATHER. Tell her NO. It's that simple.

I also take issue with any argument that says that it's OK because aboriginals run around naked. Aborginals also are in small groups where grandma is also naked and her swinging pendulous breasts are hitting the ground because she hasn't worn a bra her whole life or had a breast lift. Nakedness is a lot different when everyone, including the “ugly” old people, are also naked.

There is also no TV or advertising in aboriginal communities.

In our culture, we are bombarded with images of young women with perfect bodies enhanced digitally and under the knife.

Does all of this negatively affect young girls? OF COURSE IT DOES! It absolutely, positively affects them negatively. It can't not affect them negatively.

When I was a little girl, I didn't even worry about being sexy. It wasn't even an issue. I can't even imagine worrying about that at the age of 7.

My Halloween costume at 7 consisted of a plastic Snow White mask and a large BIB that represented her outfit.

So I have to wonder - what is so completely screwed up in the minds of mothers today that they are buying into this nonsense and dressing up their little girls like whores?

I went to a Halloween party over the weekend and the number of women wearing skimpy outfits was not surprising - but telling. Because the men don't do that 1/10th as much. Maybe it's these same women, buying into the crap for themselves, who pass it on to their girls. Sad.

I'm an adult woman, and while I don't mind sexualizing myself on occasion to go out on a night on the town, I certainly don't want to be sexualized all the time. I get sick of going to the store and only finding jeans that show off my butt crack.

Oh, I used to really do it up when I was younger and wanted to get male attention. So I've been there where the guys hit on you because they want your body - but they don't give a rat's ass about you, your mind, or your soul. It's not all it's cracked up to be. That sort of attention does not bring you respect or lasting love.

I live in Los Angeles where this stuff is epidemic. Let me tell you - I have yet to meet a beautiful woman who is not screwed up in the head some way. These women tend to be seriously neurotic. They also tend to be lazy as all get out and want a man to take care of them. They have not developed discipline or self-respect. They have serious mental health issues, a lot of them. Don't get me wrong - these women often have a heart of gold. But the repeated toll of having their looks be the focus has totally stunted them otherwise.

So what's going to happen to these women when they get older and they no longer have their looks as a commodity? Well, I just heard of one study that showed that women who get breast implants have a much higher rate of suicide - it just happens 10 years or more after they got the implants. Hm. I wonder why.

We need to put a stop to this oversexualization of girls for a variety of reasons. Mental health is number one. Don't even get me started on how this encourages child pornography and trains men to look at girls as sex objects.

Being “liberal” should not mean “anything goes.” There is a value in being conservative sometimes. It's just common sense. And knee-jerk reacting against conservatives is just being a petulant child. “I want what I want.” Well, sometimes it's for the greater good that you don't get what you want.

And in this case, parents need to start putting their feet down.

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Thank you for that wonderful post ozma!

Has anyone herd of the Hollywood trend of -while it's become the popular trend to have babies -the women opt for voluntary c-sections -that is, so baby's exit does not upset the aesthetics of the vagina?

I have to tell you, I can't comprehend how much more pathological sexual values -and particularly of the female body -can go. Except, of course, all babies being developed in test tubes, so as not to alter the female form at all. And when babies as status symbols prove to be a failure …

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

My 11 year old just experienced menarche this summer. My sister and mother were shocked, they thought that was too young. I think the media these days has a lot to do with this mass cultural brainwashing. Spend a little time watching the DISNEY channel and what the pre-teens (and teens) are watching. I was also amazed at what they let filter through The Family Channel. Heavy sexual content and foul language. I'm as open minded as the next person, but don't you think that they will have plenty of that when they are adults?

My 11 year old dressed up as a T.V. The T.V. was her head with antenne sticking up with a black shirt and pants. My 9 year old was a vampire, no dripping blood or fake teeth. FULL length black dress with a hoop skirt. Both were cute and very NON sexual. They had loads of fun.

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

The answer to the TV thing is really very simple. Don't get cable. We have the bare minimum of channels, called “basic cable” and that's just so I can get broadcast channels on occasion, and PBS. We live in the flat part of CA, and the signals don't get through otherwise.

My kids put up a huge fuss over that, but they have resigned themselves to my horrible stance on TV. Netflix and the computer are really plenty in the way of video entertainment. I'm no luddite. Good shows are often available online, and I let my daughter watch “Avatar” that way. They usually get a boxed set of some good programs for birthdays or Christmas.

Saying “no” to your kids is one of the most important ways of letting them know that they are safe and well-cared-for.

We're going to get rid of the TV altogether once we get a flatscreen monitor big enough to satisfy my need for decent picture size when watching movies. This is probably the single most important thing parents can do for their kids after food, clothing and shelter. No TV.

Liz

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Ozma said: “I also take issue with any argument that says that it's OK because aboriginals run around naked. Aborginals also are in small groups where grandma is also naked and her swinging pendulous breasts are hitting the ground because she hasn't worn a bra her whole life or had a breast lift. Nakedness is a lot different when everyone, including the “ugly” old people, are also naked.”

:-)

Their nakedness, sexuality and child-rearing (culture) are unbelievably different.  They breast feed into toddlerhood.  The environment warrants minimal clothing.  They co-sleep.  Parents have intimate relations in proximity to their young. Menopausal women are revered as wise.   ETC.

~Stacy

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Hey Tim, Ozma,

Yep - it's quite something isn't it?  I went to a halloween party a few days ago where everyone dressed up as rock stars.  There were 3 Britneys (all 20-ish girls), 1 Janis Joplin (22-year-old), the Temptations (40-ies), a Mick Jagger (40-ies) and then of course Bono (ahum).  The rest were not recognizable as anyone I knew…

The best costume I've seen this year was a 3-year-old wearing a polar bear costume - I wish i had a picture to add, it was soooo cute!

Here's to easthetically pleasing vaginas!

Frans

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

“Here's to easthetically pleasing vaginas!”

Aren't they all??



I remember someone referring to pre- and post- birth vaginas as “regular” and “fluted.” I liked that one.

Liz

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Aren't they all??

Sorry, no, not in my opinion.

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Liz, thanks for the thoughts and advice on T.V.   I may just give that one a trial run.

I have also told my kids… No Tattoos, No Piercings.

1. 1. Use your hands on my daughter and you'll lose them after.
2. 2. You make her cry, I make you cry.
3. 3. Safe sex is a myth. Anything you try will be hazardous to your health.
4. 4. Bring her home late, there's no next date.
5. 5. Only delivery men honk. Dates ring the doorbell. Once.
6. 6. No complaining while you're waiting for her. If you're bored, change my oil.
7. 7. If your pants hang off your hips, I'll gladly secure them with my staple gun.
8. 8. Dates must be in crowded public places. You want romance? Read a book.

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Bruce, I was speaking in the sense that we are all beautiful, radiant expressions of the Divine. But by all means, let's make sure that some women know  that they are not good enough for you. God forbid one of the ugly ones should get the idea that she's actually beautiful and do something horrible like come on to you. Yech.

I'll be honest, this triggers me massively, and that was not a great response. But I don't see why you and Frans felt the need to make a point of separating the “aesthetically pleasing” from the “not-up-to-your-standards.”

It's just mean, really. PLEASE tell me I totally misinterpreted you.

Liz

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

I hope you did misinterpret what I meant, Liz.  I believe you did, but you can tell me after I've explained my comments.  I was NOT saying anything about some women not being good enough for me or not being up to my standards.  I wasn't even thinking in that direction.  I was actually making a comment that I thought was as frank as one you would make if someone said, “All penises are physically beautiful.”  I expect you might similarly point out that that's just not true.  At least, I expect not all attract you equally.  It doesn't mean the men who possess these aesthetically less than attractive organs are unworthy of love or that they don't meet your standards (which would be very narrow, if that's the only thing you looked at, I totally agree).    And I do appreciate the sentiment you expressed, on a soul or spiritual level; and it's the soul I look for first in a mate.  Aesthetics and physical attractiveness play a role, of course, but for me not an overwhelming one or even a primary one.

And this is a non sequitur.  Sorry for contributing to it…..

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Balder: Aren't they all??

Sorry, no, not in my opinion.

~~~

I don't feel I need to add much to Liz's comment, so instead I'll start by quoting a Stuart Davis song.

“Surfaces” - Stuart Davis

Tracing lines of blue
where skin lets light through
Over miles of muscle
through the woven puzzle
Onto ribs that rise and fall
there's an ear against the wall

Chorus:
Surfaces
play with light
catch the eye
lines and curves
everyone is perfect
Surfaces
a world adorned
beauty comes in infinite forms
Perfect surfaces

Out the hollow of your heel
up the ladder in your spine
to the cliffs around your eyes
I dive into the brine

Chorus

Shadow on a human figure
makes a bone look bigger

Chorus

Shadow on a human figure
makes a bone look bigger

~~~~~

I love that there are people like Betty Dodson out there countering messages like Bruce's.

from http://www.bettydodson.com/cuntmon.htm

HOW TO CELEBRATE YOUR CUNT

Betty's Genital Art Gallery celebrates the beauty, the power, and the glory of the divine vulva as the source of creation and orgasmic ecstasy. Throughout history the female genitals have been feared, mutilated, ignored, admired, and worshipped as a symbol of fertility. Today, women can appreciate their genitalia not only for birthing the next generation, but as the basis of regeneration through sexual pleasure.

In the interest of healing women's attitudes toward their appearance of their sex organs, I offer a view generated by women who speak in their own words about the relationship they have with their sex organs. I invite both women and men to applaud the exquisite design of the venerated vulva, the adorable pussy, and the gutsy cunt so we can appreciate the diversity of this natural work of art.

~~~~~

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Frans: “Here's to easthetically pleasing vaginas!”

Liz: Aren't they all??

~~~

Your remark seemed like a non sequitur to me, Frans, but since you mention it I agree with Liz.  Interested folks are directed to the book Femalia by Joani blank.

spiral on,
arthur

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

To speak for myself (and on behalf of my two daughters 7 and just turned 5):

I am OPEN to the natural process for each daughter that is occurring.  I practice being attuned or attentive to what that might be (and I try to be patient :-).  I try to MODERATE their influences however allow them BREADTH of experience.  I am mindful of the LONG-TERM, honor PROCESS, encourage PLAY and NOWness, respect IMPERMANENCE, invite the UNKNOWN, ask for SUPPORT, challenge my LIMITS, and LET GO ;-)


What I most want to say (as there is SO much I want to say ;-)  is that our children (boys and girls) are losing out on the process, the unfolding, the building blocks (IMHO).  There is SOOOO much time for SEXUALITY….. for all of it.  What is the rush?  I think Tim mentioned shyness and privacy…. and for myself, I remember how wonderful that shyness was in my early years to highlight the contrast of sexual exploration.  I can't imagine how that is being short-circuited now. 

And I hurt for the boys and how they're impulses are being over-watered. 

I think of David Deida… and I recall him saying that at some point sex gets old.  And what I came away with is that SEXUALITY is an incredible line to be explored and developed.  An impulse, a therapy, an Art.  Allow it to unfold and carry one into each ensuing decade….

For my daughters, I want them to grow into their authenticity and be appreciated for themselves (whatever unique blend that will be).  Of course within that process they will experiment, they will want to belong, they will want to rebel…. again, I hope to be able to keep them close to their (developing) center and to serve as a reminder while they extend outwards.

And its the hardest, most rewarding practice I have ever committed to…
~Stacy

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

The extended version : - )

 

Rule Number One

If you pull into my driveway and honk, you'd better be delivering a package, because you're sure as heck not picking anything up.

Rule Number Two

Do not touch my daughter in front of me. You may glance at her, so long as you do not peer at anything below her neck. If you cannot keep your eyes or hands off my daughter's body, I will remove them.

Rule Number Three

I am aware that it is considered fashionable for boys of your age to wear their trousers so loosely that they appear to be falling off their hips. This is utterly ridiculous-if you want to be stylish, you should look to me for cues. I've been dressing the same way for twenty years, and I still look great!

Nonetheless, I want to be fair and open-minded about this issue, so I propose this compromise: You may come to the door with your underwear showing and your pants ten sizes too big, and I will not object. However, in order to assure that your clothes do not, in fact, come off during the course of your date with my daughter, I will take my electric staple gun and fasten your trousers securely in place around your waist.

Rule Number Four

I'm sure you've been told that in today's world, sex without utilizing a “barrier method” of some kind can kill you. Let me elaborate: when it comes to sex, I am the barrier, and I will kill you.

Rule Number Five

You may feel that in order for us to get to know each other, we should talk about sports, politics, and other issues of the day. Please do not do this. The only information I require from you is an indication of when you expect to have my daughter safely back to my house, and the only word I need from you on this subject is “early”

Rule Number Six

I have no doubt you are a popular fellow, with many opportunities to date other girls. This is fine with me as long as it is okay with my daughter. Otherwise, once you have gone out with my little girl, you will continue to date no one but her until she is finished with you. If you make her cry, I will make you cry.

Rule Number Seven

As you stand in my front hallway. Waiting for my daughter to appear, and more than an hour goes by, please do not sigh and fidget. If you want to be on time for the movie, you should not be dating. Instead of just standing there, why don't you do something useful, like changing the oil in my car?

Rule Number Eight

The following places are not appropriate for a date with my daughter: places where there are beds, sofas, or anything softer than a wooden stool; places lacking parents, policemen, or nuns; places where there is darkness; places where there is dancing, holding hands, or happiness; places where the ambient temperature is warm enough to induce my daughter to wear shorts, tank tops, midriff T-shirts, or anything other than overalls, a sweater, and a goose-down parka zipped up to her chin. Movies with a strong romantic or sexual theme are to be avoided; movies that feature chain saws are okay. Hockey games are okay.

My daughters claim it embarrasses them to come downstairs and find me attempting to get their dates to recite these eight simple rules from memory.




Stacy, I like your comments on boys impluses. I am afraid as I was growing up they were ignored and swept under the rug. Believe me, the sexual revolution of the 60's and 70's did not extend to Peoria , IL in my household when I was growing up! 

Its going to be a rough ride allowing our daughters the space to unfold sexually and protect them at the same time until they are adults in this day and age.

Step one:  Be there for them and give them some attention!

Dan

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Step one:  Be there for them and give them some attention!


Which is exactly what does not happen when we take the Hakuna Matata appraoch to parenting. Which is what our culture does indeed encourage us to do.

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Tim:
Has anyone herd of the Hollywood trend of -while it's become the popular trend to have babies -the women opt for voluntary c-sections -that is, so baby's exit does not upset the aesthetics of the vagina?

Yeah, I've heard  of it.

That trend must be the pinnacle of narcissism; the worst of green being mixed with the worst of orange.

OMFG, how screwed up has culture become when it overrides a mother's instinct to do what's best for her child?? Thousands and thousands of years of evolution wiped out by the fucked-up environment that is Hollywood.

The world desperately needs the depth that comes with Integral consciousness to inoculate us against the extremes of narcissism.

Pelle

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Frans: “Here's to easthetically pleasing vaginas!”

Liz: Aren't they all??


You've seen all of them?? 


Pelle

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Arthur can attest to the fact that I actually laughed out loud when I read that.

Liz

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

I knew use of the word aesthetic might cause a stir . .

I'm glad to see my point has not been missed though.

I was thinking specifically along these lines …

…the beauty, the power, and the glory of the divine vulva as the source of creation …

and those awe-inspiring ideas just being thrown in the toilet. I just can not imagine the vagaries of Flatland with regard to this topic becoming more pathological. If I am not mistaken Brittany Spears had both of her children by voluntary c-section. There is no medical reason to have a c-section. And this is certainly not about nature. The only reason, at least as I can imagine it, is that our culture has become so pathologically obsessed with female youth, beauty and “perfection,” and that this value, the price of preserving it is SO HIGH … and that, Pelle makes a really good point indirectly: HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE AQUAINTED WITH YOUR VAGINA ANYWAY? There is absolutely NO REASON why you could not continue your career -even as a SEX SYMBOL - because you allowed your child to be born naturally. Yet, for some reason, the pathology is so strong, the obsession running so deep, we'll skip any need for later potential vaginal reconstruction (something which could be a medical need) and just pull the baby out of an incision we can more easily fix with plastic surgery. In other words, and it's obvious, isn't it? - you don't want to be a mother. You don't want to mature to the fullness of womanhood … I mean, come on. At what point do we finally decide to grow up? And become human beings once again.


On a somewhat related, though tangential subject, I keep meaning to interject, as I'm sure you all know more or less, that the whole thing doesn't begin with our day and age, the puritanical strain and sexual pathology is only the older version at the mythic-amber level, and leads us right up to today. Good god, can someone take a chill pill over sex in this culture!

But regarding genetalia … Which do you prefer -or have you ever seen the difference? -a circumcised penis or a natural uncircumcised penis? The whole reason that started in our culture -and continues to be a heated issue today -is because it was a measure to stop boys from masturbation, since the foreskin has all the sensitive nerve endings, or more than without. I don't know, just figured I'd pop that subject in here since we're talking about pathological genital obsessions … or are we just talking about genitals?

Incidentall, in case anyone is wondering, I am “half” circumcised, being born in the day and age when uncertainty over the necessity of this brutal practice was emerging. It has been a source of embarassment -due to the aesthetics -throughout my life. Although I am happy to report that as more genuine knowledge of the what, why and how o the whole thing is reaching more and more people's awareness, … now the dudes express their admiration  …

And now I have no idea why I just posted that.

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Here's a great book that will help daughters stay occupied in a healthy fashion.

Warning: Some projects may require parental involvement and interaction ; - )



http://www.amazon.com/Daring-Book-Girls-Andrea-Buchanan/dp/0061472573/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-3484326-9361417?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193951598&sr=8-1

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Tim:
Pelle makes a really good point indirectly: HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE AQUAINTED WITH YOUR VAGINA ANYWAY?

Yep, that's exactly what I was thinking, thanks for making it explicit.


Regarding the circumcision of boys, let me put it in diplomatic terms:

It is a hideous form of abuse and has no place whatsoever in a civilized society, period.



Pelle

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Pelle: Yep, that's exactly what I was thinking …


Great penises think alike! Er, …um, . . I mean … . uh …



[This user in no longer available.]

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

adastra(?!?): Arthur can attest to the fact that I actually laughed out loud when I read that.

Liz

~~~~~

Um, that was my user you posted under, sweetie.  But then again…

We are Tamgoddess.    :P

arthur

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Liz, Tim, Arthur, Bruce, Pelle, Daniel , Stephanie (and anyone I forgot),

The ones I've seen are all quite easthetically pleasing, yes indeed - diverse but beautiful.  That's the last thing women have to be concerned about - a naked woman is about a thousand times more attractive than a naked man (myself included (he said modestly)).

As for my daughter dating (which won't happen for a while) - I'll just introduce any would-be suitors to my dogs, tell them said dogs can find them anywhere, anytime and will do some serious damage to their masculinity should anything untowards happen.  That should do it.

Frans

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

About the voluntary C-section, isn't a large part of that the fear of pain and discomfort that gets associated with childbirth and our feel-good society where pain is unecessary?  That's a view that the medical profession certainly enhances… and most doctors don't have time to spend on childbirth if a C-section is so much faster.

Then again, in our case we thank the medical profession for the C-section as both Elise and Tara would have died without…

Frans

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Congratulations folks,
We made it nearly 3 days before it digressed to who has the prettier penus or more voluptuous vulva.

I would say we are nearly done with this subject as suggested by the header.
Any future postings should probably be thought through a bit more before sending and/or started by a new thread.  This is fast digressing into territory outside the topic.

Thanks for playing, this has been great fun!

Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Well, can I just say…I know this wasn't intended as such, but when conversations have to devolve into how amazing the average vagina looks…it once again proves this point that we are wayyyy too focused on the physical appearance of women.

Who the heck cares what a vagina looks like? Why do we need to wax poetic about its mystical goddess power and some such nonsense? Pardon me for saying this, but I've rarely met a man who was obsessed with LOOKING at a vagina as opposed to just seeing it as a point of insertion.

If a woman's vagina is ugly THAT'S OK. Because you know what? A woman has more worth than just her pretty face or her pretty petals. Geez oh pete. And then we wonder why our kids are obsessed with their sexuality before they even HAVE sexuality.

Next thing you know, people will start getting surgeries done to make their anuses prettier. Is there any end to this madness?

Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

True, going off-topic is generally poor netiquette, but but it's often tolerated here for various reasons, including humor and the occasional righteous rant.

In general, we leave the on-topic enforcement up to the thread starter, who in this case is Gina, and she's done so already. Also, please don't change thread titles, as this is confusing to people keeping track of particular threads.

And now, on to a fresh start, eh? How about introducing yourself on our introductions board?

Liz

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

I haven't anything original to say, at least not at this moment – and you've all been brilliant and bright– I'm just dropping in to say thanks. This is a good thread.

In gratitude,
Lauren

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Ozma:

“Is there any end to this madness?”

There is only one place (and one time) to end it…

Frans

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Oh, but I do have something to say, I just remembered.

A lot of you have seen this before, but I will re-publish it and publically thank my mother for her good creative sense, her good common sense, and for making me the sexiest halloween costume ever..

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

Ah, Lauren … that is just the best thing I've seen in a long time.

If dressing little girls up like nuns for Halloween makes them turn out anything like you, then as far as I'm concerned we'll be all set …

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Tim, And how I do agree!

Hugs Lauren…. too precious!

~Stacy

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

I knew I should have posted this this morning when it was relevant, but I was in a hurry.  Now it's so far behind only thread-readers will see the connection.

I shall persist anyway: back up to where Liz talks about girls needing to reach 100 pounds before they begin menstruating, and talks about obesity in relationship to early menopause.

It is a startling but little-known fact that fat cells anywhere in the body of male or female are as good or better producers of estrogen than ovarian cells. (Source, Dr. John R. Lee, M.D. who was IMHO the world's expert on reproductive hormones. I think it's   http://www.johnleemd.com )   Site-search or Google search the terms estrogen dominance men or estrogen dominance women.  [Suddenly I question whether this is actually true for fat cells at childhood age, but for the moment I believe that is true.]

Therefore, [if that is true] childhood obesity will retard and warp puberty in boys and hasten and warp it in girls.

And obesity becomes a vicious cycle in older men, leading to prostate cancer and all manner of epidemic ED  and urinary problems. I am female but I have become a mini-expert on this subject. Dr. Lee pointed out that an obese older man probably has way more estrogen in his body than his post-menopausal wife does. I guess it's time to post my piece on this topic in my blog. Maybe I can do that in time to get a link here. If not, will post below.

Anyhoo, this is not relevant to any other post of today, just a supplemental factoid, not to diminish any assertions of the effect or relevance of cultural influences at all.

Blessings to all, OM Bastet

Re: Halloween Costumes Too Sexy?

My son attended a Halloween parade the other day at his school.  He was describing all of the costumes of his classmate to me – Isaiah was a Power Ranger, Jamahd was a monster, Morgan was a mermaid, Spencer was Tigger the Tiger, Yutin was Batman, and this other boy was “all dressed up.”  My wife then rolled her eyes and told me the 6-year-old kid had come dressed as a pimp.