UFOs

On the Larry King Show this evening, a panel of several people testified about their experiences with UFOs.  They were making an appearance on the program apparently in anticipation of an event in Washington, DC, this coming week, where officials and military folks from around the world will be meeting to discuss the UFO phenomenon - and to present the positive evidence that has been collected to date.

What do you think of this topic?  Is it a modern mythology, a technological twist on the same prerational, magical/mythic forms of thinking that have given us gods and goblins throughout the ages?  Or is there something to it - something that defies reduction to naïve cultural projections? 

It isn't a topic that is discussed much in Integral circles.  Should it be?

I think it is very likely that life exists elsewhere in the universe.  I would be surprised (and disappointed) if it didn't.  I am less sure that any of those life forms are actually visiting us right now.  I am open to the idea, but not convinced … I have not seen enough yet that would allow me to feel comfortable taking a decisive stand for it or against it.

A number of years ago, I was in an unusual position that allowed me to hear testimony that probably many people haven't heard.  I was working as a court reporter and was asked to transcribe a number of interviews with military officials, again in preparation for a meeting that was going to be taking place with government employees in the US capital in several months.  For fun, and hoping I'm not breaking any rules here, I'm going to quote from one of the transcripts I made.  I will change the names just to be safe.

~*~

COL. D:  I am LD, Colonel, U.S.A.F., retired.  I got a bachelor of science degree, and then the Air Force sent me to the _______ Business School to study management, and then promptly assigned me to Washington, DC.  And I served in the Chief of Staff's Office for orientation, and then they put me into the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission where I became responsible for maintaining the inventory of the accountability of the nuclear weapon stockpile and involved in the security and the - you might say, auditing the manufacturing facilities and the storage facilities for all the nuclear weapons in the U.S.  And while I was there, I had my first incident with UFOs, which, in mid-July, they flew over Washington, DC, and I saw my first nine UFOs.

INTERVIEWER:  What year was this?

COL. D:  It was July of 1952.  And, of course, during that period of time I made a lot of contacts.  I was a staff officer for the military liaison committee between the chairman of the AEC and the Secretary of Defense.  And so, I became acquainted with not only the Army, Navy, and Air Force, but civilian agencies, the CIA, the National Security Agency, and other contacts which I developed.  During that period of time, one of my functions was to accompany a security team, which visited all of the nuclear facilities to check on the security of weapons.  And we were getting reports of visits by UFOs over the storage facilities and even some of the manufacturing facilities.  And that went on continuously.

Now, we found that the reports - the formal reports were few and far between, but security people were reluctant to report many of them because the protocol and the bureaucracy involved in reporting them - they just avoided reporting. 

Later, I was assigned to the Sandia Corporation as a military liaison, and I was involved in establishing a quality assurance program for the manufacture and the quality and the maintenance of their nuclear weapons.  So we had to visit all of the manufacturing facilities such as [inaudible] and the Pantex facility, which assembled the nuclear components of [inaudible].  And so, there again, we observed the UFOs, who were very much interested in the facilities that we were visiting.  But we did get constant referrals.  What are all these UFOs hovering there for?

And so, then, after that - this was during the 1950s, through the entire ‘50s.  Then I was assigned to the United Pacific Command under Admiral Phelps during the ‘60s, and I was the officer in charge of the alternate command post involved with nuclear weapon operation planning.  And during that period of time, I was - I maintained contacts with NORAD, with the SAC operations, involved [inaudible] operational plans for the use of nuclear weapons.  And during this period of time, I also learned of a number of incidents which happened.

And then further on I finally retired from the Air Force and joined the Boeing Company, where I was assigned to the Minute Man program where I was responsible for the configuration accounting of all the nuclear fleet, the Minute Man One, Two, and Three.  And during that period of time, I also learned about incidents involving nuclear weapons.  And among these incidents were a couple of nuclear weapons sent into space that were destroyed by the extraterrestrials.  But in talking to various contacts throughout, they would allude to the fact that these did happen.  There was - for example, the missile - a Minute Man missile was destroyed at the launch from Vandenberg Air Force Base.  That's now a matter of public record.

Well, the one incident, for example, was they actually photographed the UFO following the missile as it climbed into space and shining a beam of light on it, which neutralized the missile.  And this was recorded.  It was all hushed up.  And they split up the team that observed it, but of course eventually the news came out.  And it was later published, and we confirmed it…

~*~

This is just an excerpt from the interview.  He also talked about a number of other incidents, some of which he witnessed firsthand.  He also described the study of extraterrestrial artifacts at Los Alamos and Livermore that he knew about.  He closed the interview by saying that there were quite a few people like him who were getting up in years and who were just tired of not talking about these experiences, and he believed that “sooner or later the truth will come out.”

Re: UFOs

I've been waiting for 20 years for this particular aspect of the truth to be widely known. It never happened. There must be millions worldwide by now who've had some direct, first-hand experience of these visitors, and yet the story still hasn't broken into mainstream consciousness.

m

Re: UFOs

200 billion suns in our galaxy alone.  A billion is a huge number.  To frame it, consider a cash machine that will deliver a dollar a second 24hrs a day.  It would take 11 days straight to build up a million dollars.  To become a billionaire, it would take 32 years.  200 billion is a huge number.  If only 1/100 of 1% of these suns might harbor life and 1/100 of 1% of that number might have developed a technological capability, and only 1/100 of 1% of those had mastered relatively local space travel, and 1/100 of 1% of those could really beat the distance thing, then there would be 200 civilizations in our galaxy alone capable of distance travel in space.

The same statistical approach can be applied to the countless stories of UFO sightings.  If there were 1,000,000 stories to start with (not an unlikely number when you consider the reports from thousands of eye witnesses to the same “event”) and you eliminated all of the remotely suspect for unverifiability and etc and leave only the ones that stand up to a rigorous and collaborated interview - let's say a hundred really puzzling and seemingly irrefutable “encounters,” and still you had your skeptical hat on looking hard at these hundred, you would have to admit that it was not possible, statistically, that all of these people who had passed all previous screenings were still fantastic, conspiratorial, deluded, hallucinating, liars.  You would have to admit, from a statistical perspective that at least one was telling the truth.  One is all it takes to accept the inevitability of the phenomenon.  In other words, both the opportunity set and the incident set are too large to sustain disbelief.  “Why not?” becomes the more legitimate question.

Re: UFOs

Hey, Mascha and Michael, I'm glad to have some company in the tinfoil hat club!

Just kidding.  I think it is certain that there is life elsewhere in the cosmos, and believe it is likely (as Michael so nicely illustrated) that at least some of these beings will be capable of far distance space travel.  The question then is, Even if this is so, are any actually coming here?  I have hesitated to come down and state with certainty that “they're here,” simply because even if we acknowledge that out of all those who report seeing UFOs, there must be some who are telling the truth (I believe many are), we still don't know exactly what they're seeing.

The only “classical” UFO sighting I've had took place when I was a boy.  I watched a greenish point of light move across the sky, and then make a sharp right angle turn and fly away at a very high speed.  I've had some other, archetypal dream-like experiences that mirror other aspects of this phenomenon.  I'm not sure how, or even if, this physical sighting and these other more spiritual experiences are related.  (Not only in my case, but in general.  I raise the question because some writers on this phenomenon actually blur the line between physical and subtle/dream experiences, suggesting that there are beings who inhabit a space that can cross over between these dimensions of experience.)

A question that isn't often discussed when considering advanced extraterrestrial life forms, should any exist, is exactly “how” or in what ways such beings might actually be “advanced.”  Integral – and the Wilber-Combs lattice – suggest that the evolutionary arc will not only encompass many lines, but may well also involve a deepening in state experience and the attainment of high state-stage development.  Many popular depictions focus mostly on the technological and cognitive lines of development, perhaps just because that is what is most evident.  If beings develop not only technologically but in these other ways as well, then this blurring between “spiritual”/subtle and “technological”/gross phenomena may actually be something to expect.

Re: UFOs

…*they* are here…we are them…Earth is a planet where souls come into existence for the first time but I would venture a guess that many posting at zaadz have an extraterestial soul origin…where ever you see the cutting edge of cultural change that is a good indication…most are not *contracted* to be fully awake…that is not a nessisary pre-requisite…but look around and you will see their faces…

Re: UFOs

…UFOs that are visible are considered the jalopies of the universe…and most of them belong to our government…plasma drive is a reality…our government has two space programs…one for the public and one that they are desparately trying to keep secret…landings of other beings and contact will become common place within the next generation…but first Earth will have moved up an octave…the ones responcible for abductions are not of the highest sort…

…people are so afraid to even consider these things…but we need to release the flatlander mentality to get on with the business of raising the frequency…take off the tin foil hats…

Re: UFOs

Hey all…

Just jumping into the pod after a long absence. This thread caught my eye because I recently saw a very interesting documentary about crop circles, aka agriglyphs. I didn't know that there have been over 9000 documented agriglyphs since the 50s. I also didn't know that, according to the researchers, new mathematical theorems have been constructed based on some of the geometrical formations. I didn't go looking for this DVD; it came up randomly when I was looking for rentals at Blockbuster.com (egad! not the imperialist, censoring, mom and pop store killer!) I felt that viewing it was time well spent.

Re: UFOs

I'm 100% with Michael on this one - the odds on us being the only “intelligent” life form are pretty much nill.

Frans

Re: UFOs

I strongly believe that there is life out there, and have a tendency to want to believe that other sentient beings have visited this planet. I'm just not sure about the lot of stories. There is tons of honest testimony - I've read about it so much over the years. Some are mistaken, some are authentically an unexplained phenomenon. That, coupled with some, and I mean some, alien abduction descriptions, make a good case for their “visitation.” Trying to take an integral perspective on this … I guess it would be cautious of me to say that if there is a sentient, intelligent life form contacting us, we will interpret it according to our own structures of consciousness, and experience as it occurs differently than another. That may go a long way to describe why alot of alien contact stories to sound purple/animalistic and mythic like in nature. It also may describe some of the pathologies that accompany this, such as narcissistic tendencies to believe your sperm is being used by the aliens to create the future hybrid race. It's a hazey line between the narcissistic, the mythic, and the authentic mystery of UFO's, aliens, or extra-dimensional beings. Whatever the case is, an integral model is definitely a big help to make things clearer.

What is everyone's take on alien abduction?

Re: UFOs

I hesitate in sharing this - but thought it might provide another perspective and I think most of you have heard from me enough on II to know that I am very very well grounded. This is not about UFO's but about the topic of life on other planets, visitations, etc.

This is my daughter's first life time on the Earth. All previous lifetimes have been spent (I think) primarily on a specific planet (I don' t know the name/location, but I've seen it in dreams as well as the people and some various other environmental qualities). She's now 22 and I first became aware of this when I was expecting her. I have been a lucid dreamer for quite some time and had several very amazing dream experiences during my pregnancy. I will tell you that I have O % interest really in the topic at all and never had an interest in anything of this nature. As a young child it was obvious she was very different. She had abilities to see spirits of all types and our house seemed to be a gateway of sorts. Between her and my son (16 months apart  - he's a natural born dreamwalker but untrained and so some very interesting phenomenon occured in our house regularly) life was an adventure in the spirit world on a weekly basis for years. Some years after she was born, a teacher of mine validated my thoughts about my daughter's soul home. My daughter, I will tell you, isn't all that pleased about being here. She found all of it highly curious - just all of it and mostly kept to herself - writing and drawing these amazing pictures that I'd wake up to in the morning. I later came to know that she and I had connected a long long long time ago on that planet prior to me beginning incarnations on the earth and had maintained a connection in spirit over this time.

I haven't read anything about any of this and as mentioned, even having a personal experience with this doesn't really peak my interest. I find life here on Earth pretty darn engaging enough. However, in my view, this is another way that people from other planets  are making contact here outside of the visitation type of process.

OK - so is this too weird for all of you?? Has any one else ever read or heard about this? 

Re: UFOs

Jayne,

No, not weird.  Probably more common than you might think.  For years and years I have concealed the suspicion that I am here from another planet myself.  That many of my last incarnations were on a post-apocalyptic planet that had long ago worked out this materialist bullshit and gotten down to the fruits of a deeply sustainable spiritual/theatrical community and economy.  All my life, I have been appalled at the way human beings treat each other.  I am coming to know who I am and why I am here and, like you, I feel there is enough here to keep me busy for the rest of this incarnation without slipping into some elitist fantasy about how totally blown everybody else is compared to me.  I used to think that but now with all this shadow uncloaking, I can see what a fuck I have been most of my life - covertly of course as the “look good” was pretty good despite the “do bad.”

Tell your daughter to quit bitching and get into it.  She's here for a reason and the sooner she discovers it the better off we will all be.  Being critical does not work.  Tell her that I already tried that for about 50 years or so.  Lovin' yourself and other people, that's what works as I am sure you know.

yer pal,
Michael

Re: UFOs

Jayne,

ps:  If you haven't already heard about the indigo children phenomenon, you might google it up and see.  It is a world fraught with a ton of bullshit, but there is a glimmer of a “something” in there that still holds definite traction for me.  I think I was perhaps born indigo but shadowed it upon discovering that the lack of affection in my life could be effectively but toxically replaced by attention.  Hence, I became an attention freak and corrupted right into the red/orange/green whoop-dee-doo with everyone else.  Consequently I got downright narcissistic and wounded big time developing a righteous victim/martyr shadow with a messianic cherry on top.  Today, I know that I am no messiah but I do like the feeling of Christ /Krishna consciousness as it rises on occasion within me.

Re: UFOs

Hey folks,

Jayne, you asked: Has any one else ever read or heard about this?  Yeh. My first meditation teacher (who I mentioned in a pm to you a while back) who had been a Jesuit in the Vatican in the 50s, was certain that his soul's origin was on/in another planet. I too was a dreamwalker in my first decade. I would include whoever interupted my outloud dream conversations in the conversation, without recall! That was pretty trippy for my parents.

Bruce, as a kid I saw what I thought was a satelite until it took a 90 degree turn and excellerated.

ShamanSun, I'm pretty sure I walked into a crop circle back in '79. There's more story to that; maybe later.


Toward the end of the cold war some in the the citizen diplomacy movement held out the hope that a difinitive extraterrestrial contact would inspire an kind of ethnocentricity at worldcentric, that a broad human unity would be affected through the recognition of a common other.

Since then I've come to see a whole set of developmental challenges that suggest a sliding scale of terms for stages. The subject/object, self/other progression seems evident in our perspectives on the 'big others', the challenges of kosmoscentricity. To me it's clear that the perspective of  'we're it, it's just us' expresses an egocentricity of even a post-conventional view.

IMP might offer the first decent chance at making sense of what we, as yet, understand least.

Still, I'm with Robert Frost on..”Earth's the right place for love. Don't know where it's likely to go better.”

Kerry

Re: UFOs

Jayne,

That's fascinating!  I too have little interest in the topic, but have thought for some time that it would be no more than logical that we manifest in various lifeforms, in various locations (in many more respects than just physical location).  I've never heard of an experience like your daughter's before but see it as just another part of the mystery of life - no need to analyze it in my eyes…

Frans

Re: UFOs

…okay…I'm et…I hope this doesn't tip the cart over…I came from a 5th D world where time is manipuable…I've had less than 10 incarnations…I was dropped off in the past and fast -forwarded so that I was prepared for this life …this is a pivotal generation and You are All a part of it…this is the changeing time…that's why you are at zaadz right?…to change the world?…this is part and parcel of the work…
   …I feel the faster we can get more critical mass to 3rd tier the sooner we can get this show on the road…

Re: UFOs

Fascinating, Will. Can you say more? I admire you for going so far out on a limb…

For info more immediately verifiable, here's a link Marianthi posted on the recent UFO thread at Heartmind forums.

  www.blog.agoracosmopolitan.com/?p=107,   


“Brazil, India and China are taking the lead on extraterrestrial awareness”, Mihir Sen, from the India Daily reports. “They want to make sure the emerging new world understands that we have to co-exist with our advanced extraterrestrial neighbours.” The Indian Daily reports that Extraterrestrials will be forced to more publically reveal themselves in order to try to avoid a planetary disaster which is projected to occur in 2012.

As human civilization is being destroyed under the hyprocisy which guides the Western Scientific and pseudo-religious Establishment, the timely needed enlightenment of human populations on a reported Extraterrestrial presence could very well be led by China.
The government of China, notwithstanding accounts of human rights abuses, appears to have constructively prepared members of that
society on the kind of potentially vital awareness context, which Western governments continue to deny its own societal members.”

~~~~~~~~~~~

Re: UFOs

Mascha, Dear Ones,

Thanks for including that alarming red quote summarizing the overriding sentiment among the many who have opened and are opening to the 12/21/12 date proposed by Mayan and other sources as the new millenial “end of time.”

I have been “on” this subject since I read an account of psycotropically-influenced cultural interaction by the McKenna bros. in 1968.  Simply, as an ethnobotanist and cultural anthropologist, the brothers contacted a previously sequestered tribe somewhere in Venezuela if memory serves.  Their protocol was fairly simple.  What they measured was the rate of information exchange between themselves and the native tribe they cozied up with.  Along with sharing language and habit while under the influence of psychotropics from both the native and First World compendia, the brothers routinely consulted the I Ching and recorded both the hexagrams and the rate/frequency/substance of the exchange of “habit” between themselves and the clan.  Deep into this study, they began to see a pattern emerging from the flow of the hexagrams superimposed on the important exchanges of skill, knowledge, and insight between the parties over “time”.  What emerged was an image of a multi-stranded rope that twisted open at the inception of the experiment and seemed to head towards a conclusion of sorts at a date fifty some years in the future.  As it turned out, once they got home and worked further on the details of the pattern, the date turned out to be 2012.  Neither brother at the time was aware of the significance of this date in Mayan deep astrology, but soon, they both were struck by the unfolding interpretations coming from the ongoing decoding of the Mayan calendar.

For those of you who are not aware of what the Mayan calendar points to, please allow the following description to encourage your curiosity:  simply, through dedicated observation, the Mayans and, perhaps, other astro-observational cultures which preceeded the Mayans, a certain galactic cycle had been noted as a repeating phenomenon.  Without detail, this cycle involves the up and down location of our part of the galaxy as it vibrates above and below the horizontal plane of the galaxy.  2012, precisely, as proposed by the current state of the art of this calculation, Dec. 21, 2012 is the moment when the earth will exactly coincide with this so-called galactic “plane.”

Boiling the Mayan heiroglyphic language down to its most basic, what is suggested, and what stands out as profoundly alarming, is the notion that what this co-incidence will precipitate is “an end to time.”

As this ultra-simplified reduction spreads thoughout the “millenial” community it has left the typical apocalyptic paranoia in its wake.  Dire shit, including the earth flipping on its axis, aborted rotation, mass extinctions from tectonic and corresponding volcanic activity, the collapse of civilizations and civility and on and on are swept into the doorway opened by the “end of time” summation. 

Compounding this “American” version of millenial thinking is the hoo-hah surrounding the predictions of Nostradamus as alchemized by the suggestions of Revelations in the bible.  To me, a critical co-incidence that has gone unnoticed in the years since Nostradamus produced his work, is the timing of his professions against the backdrop of European hegemony in the new world.  My suspicion is that Nostradamus became aware of the Mayan calendars basic notions about the “End of Time” as these notions were returned (in great secrecy) home to Europe on the ships bearing the gold and other loot acquired by the conquistadores.  Imo, the recent film The Fountain, by Darren Aronofsky attempts to address this issue obliquely but fails in the end to tie it in with any conviction.

To my knowledge, nothing in the Mayan calendar interpretations details such chaos.  Nevertheless, this “end of time” piece still stands out and begs for an integral interpretation.  My instinct and my intuition is that the “end of time” piece does not refer to material destruction so much as it does to our collective impression of WHAT TIME IS AS A PHENOMEMON.  I propose do develop this notion further as this discussion unfolds.

We are experiencing and coming to “know” a few things that support this intuition.  First, there is a collective sense that, despite all the friggin' low-end monkey-motion going on around here, the earth's cog is being forcefully raised, awareness is expanding, and the global perspective set is moving from 2p through 3p and on to 4p.  The 4p perspective, imo, includes the capacity for the observer to rise above the mundane drama of the 3p “flatland” and observe the goings on “below” from the dramaturgical perspective of 4p.  Such a developed perspective requires the witness to include a sense of conventional time in their considerations of both the drama in their own lives as well as the drama unfolding around them.  To see such drama as it is actually happening from a temporarily uninvolved perspective requires oversight, or an elevated location from which to track back in time to cause and forward in time to vision through imaginary projection. 

The dilemma for this dramaturgical perspective of 4p is that it is limited by the conventional notion of time being a continuum stretching linearly back into the past and linearly forward into the future.  This struggle with limitation, however seductive and dominated by consensus, is the herald to 2nd tier consciousness.  3rd tier consciousness, imo, is marked by an acceptance that 4p is a transitional stage at that only by opening to an advanced notion of what time might really be will the witness be able to assume the 5p position of being free from the strictures of the consensus notion of time and, transcluding 4p, drop closer to the flatland 3p stage into the middle of the tetrahedron created by the three corners of the flatland triangel of 1p-2p-3p, and the dramaturgical perspective 4p point centrally located above the center of the 3p flatland.  5p, or the doorway to bliss and 3rd tier exists equidistant from the vertices of the tetrahedron and dead center in the middle.  Here, establishment of self-as-Self, indigo awareness, and ego resolution is actually possible.  From this perspective, the mystical experience may be joined.

So, what to do about the “holy crap/paranoia” factor?  Well, a couple of considerations come to mind: 

One, the actual precision of the event.  How precise is this horizontal plane through which we are purportedly travelling?  Reason indicates to me, considering the overwhelming scale of phenomenon in the galaxy, that this “plane” is hardly an infinitesimally thin something-or-other.  If that is the case, then we have been transitioning through or near it for some time already, and we are already experiencing the effects, whatever they might be of this transition.  My reading includes some conjecture based on sophisticated calculations beyond the Mayan's keen but limited observations, that we have already passed the middle of the plane and are on into the “future” despite the apparent savant-like accuracy of the Mayan calendar.  This possibility might account for the seeming disruptions in weather, plate tectonics, increased volcanism and etc, that seem so evident now. 

Two, many of us are rankled deeply by the seeming manipulation of history by those who have had the balls to interpret it for us.  Such interpretations and translations are rife with conscious editing of what actually happened into what those who love to control things by inculcating fear have lied to us about from god knows when.  I, for one, take no comfort in these explanations and recommendations, preferring to cleave to my own counsel as well as that of others around whom I deeply trust myself, and the revelations that rise from self-inquiry. 

Three,  the apparent acceleration of “out there” phenomenon including crop circles, ufo's, abductions and the like.  Backing up to the operating conclusion that there is likely advanced life with distance travel technology, well, then there is probably also a, um, er … “federation” of allied interests out there that are paying close attention to the “experiment” unfolding here on earth.  So, why the increased “attention” and visitation phenomenae?  Well, if I were them, and I had vested interests here on earth, I would be worried that the whole shebang was about to go up in radiological smoke.  Additionally, given the chemical soup we are foisting on ourselves, the chances that we might significantly fuck up our genetics wholesale is a growing possibility.  If I, as a concerned scientist or cultural anthropologist from the Pleiades on duty behind the moon,  had a stake in the proceedings,  I would be all for manifesting crop circles and fly-overs to raise awareness here among us monkeys that there was a bigger picture, and that we were being observed and concern among the observers was rising as we marched down the trail to this lie-infested vision of inevitable Armageddon, or so it seems to me.

When I say “it seems to me,” I am reporting from the sum total of my observations, experiences, intuitions, and  logical reductions.  I do not ask that you believe me, but only that you consider as selflessly as possible what it is that I am saying.  Please ignore the bombast, pontification, and exercised certainty as it is mostly shadow working to draw attention to itself so that it might be finally saved from its darkness and included in full awareness.

Yer pal,

Michael

Re: UFOs

Michael, there is such a keen self-awareness evident in your writing, to me it doesn't come across as pontificating and overly certain. In fact, I thoroughly enjoy the flamboyant richness you scatter like angel dust from so many different angles of this hologram we're admiring together, it inspires me to also say more (than maybe I should sometimes, hee).

Now I am very curious to hear if there are any practical consequences to holding such views as you and Will and Jayne (to an extent) have expressed here. IOW, how do you act in the world, given these perspectives? Do you navigate differently?

I appreciate these windows into your reality,

m

Re: UFOs

Dear Mascha,

Thanks for the reassurance.  I know that this is not the case, but sometimes I do feel as if I were operating in a vacuum of sorts in the world at large.  That feeling is far less prevalent here, in the company of bright sparks like yours for instance.  Its not that many others here and elsewhere have not reached the same state of affairs with similar operating conclusions, its that I do feel that much of the time we are quibbling about the details and not seeking to grok the overall state.  Though I seem bound to engage it, the God debate to me is silly.  None other than Hans Kung, the excommunicated Catholic theologian who supported liberation theology that sprang from Jeusit priests ministering to Amazonian natives in Brazil, wrote a book entitled “Does God Exist?”  In it, he concluded that it did not matter if God existed. (though, to my ear, he successfully proved the case for existence)  “Why” he asked, “would you lead your life any differently?”  “Does not our every real yearning point in the same direction - towards peace of mind and communion?”  Unlike Kung, however, I believe that it does make a difference and that difference is centered on the utility of the precious energy and attention that is our real gift to ourselves and the world.  As long as we are side-tracked in acrimony about the existence or not of something that cannot be described with words, this precious energy will continue to leak and spoil in fruitless debate.  Empiricism is a boon when applied to the strictures of the mundane and a curse when it seeks to rule discussions of spirituality.

Mascha, you asked, “Now I am very curious to hear if there are any practical consequences to holding such views as you and Will and Jayne (to an extent) have expressed here. IOW, how do you act in the world, given these perspectives? Do you navigate differently?”

Well, for me, as I am not sure about others generally, I have become less transient and my “navigation” as you say, has turned within.  I vigorously explored the micro/macro outside cosmos  for almost 60 years before I realized that what I sought, the Kosmos, could be found only inside.  I heard this countless times before I turned-to myself from all sorts of sources.  Still, until I came to experience the imminent collapse of self through a succession of nominally “incurable” diseases, I did not know truly what it felt like to be powerless over my life.  Big pattern-recognizing brain, high-end education, middle to upper-middle class benefits and strivings and nose-rubbing encounters with great beauty, the wild side, and abject horror did not do the job - my ongoing confrontation with death and an early exit from this life, has.  I came to realize that I had been “dying to live” while all the while missing the benefits of “living to die.”

Though my academic labels are sparse, I am yet plastered with a confabulation of others.  These labels are more than superficial as they represent incorporated perspectives - most of them not obtained through study alone, but much actual experience in the world.  My appreciation of vibration for instance, does not come so much from my here-and-there studies of acoustics and crystallography so much as twenty years maintaining my balance on blood-slimed decks at sea.  The subtleties of wind, tide, current, wave and the inexplicable wonder of water are deeply imbedded in me.  I did not come to my appreciation of drama by studying it alone, though I have done a bit of that, but more by practicing it from every single aspect that the theatre has to offer.  I did not come to my appreciation of materials science just by inventing some weird stuff and trying to make a living thereby, (which I have done for twenty more years) but by sitting down at the potter's wheel in-between fishing adventures and turning out well over 100,000 pots and other ceramic doo-dads from the most marvelous and versatile stuff this planet has to offer - clay.  I did not come to appreciate the critical importance of self-inquiry and the overwhelmingly beautiful emotional reality by studying psychology.  Rather, it came to me out of desperation when I realized, fully, that I was full of shit and did not have a clue as to who or what I was.  Talk about inauthentic!  Hah!  No wonder some people still see a bit of it in me.  Jaysus, what a fool I have been. 

So, the consequences of this state of being are numerous and today, finally, I can say with some willingness and conviction that I am preparing to accept them all.  I will continue to discriminate and measure my honesty with compassion for myself and others but I intend, fully, to let my little light shine as brightly as I know that the all the gods in heaven would have me.  I am here to seek and provide encouragement for myself and others while becoming utterly transparent to the dense objections of those who are threatened by my attention when it turns to matters about which they seem to be confused.  Forgive me for my trespasses as I forgive you for yours.

In the end, my message is that it is far simpler than it seems to be - excruciatingly difficult at times, but simple in the end:  everything that we seek lies within.

yer grateful pal,
Michael

Re: UFOs

[teeny tiny correction dear Michael – Hans Kung has not been excommunicated; he remains a priest “in good standing” although the Vat has rescinded his authority to teach “officially Roman Catholic” theology–excuse my silly editorial spasm–now back to the more exciting speculation on UFOs, consequences, & etc ….]  :-)

Re: UFOs

Hey Michael, thankyou for sharing this lovely post with us. I really appreciate your interest and knowledge on these subjects. It seems too often to be pushed aside as taboo, leaving it desparately in need of an integral interpretation. Thanks for that!

Re: UFOs

I always wondered why ghosts always bother people with opening windows and moving toothbrushes and appearing as cold winds, and why aliens appear as flashes of light or dots or green hazes. And why people with the “telekinesis-ability” only bother to move very small things, and only when people aren't looking.

Come on. If you were a ghost you would have more fun that annoying people by moving their cellphones or opening their windows at night. Or if you came across an advanced civilization on another planet with your spaceship, you wouldn't kind of just… fly past really, really fast and then… DISAPPEAR! What's the point in being so damn mysterious? If I discovered living creatures I would head down there to try and speak with them right away! (And just in case keep a poisonous ampule or something with me in case their consciousness was RED and tried to attack or torture me to death for being an outsider.) Or if you could do telekineses you would do some way cooler and significant stuff than moving pens away from you on a table - and share your ability with both other people and the scientific community for study!

My point is that when people from other planets (which I'm sure have existed in the past, exist right now, or will come to exist in the future) come here to us for a visit, it won't be as a mysterous and blinding purple light, mkey?

Re: UFOs

Is, your posts are funny (if a tad, um, condescending).  I understand your points, and think a lot of silliness goes on in these areas of the “unexplained.”  Some of these so-called incidents are likely just cases of runaway imaginations – projections of fantasy on top of rationally (and conventionally) explicable events, at best.  But from what I've seen, they ALL can't be “reduced” in this way.  We can't say exactly what is happening in these different events, but I'm convinced that something significant is … something not explainable by appeals to magical thinking or superstition or hoaxes or whatever. 

Also, just to be clear:  Just because YOU wouldn't do something a certain way doesn't mean it can't happen that way.  Your argument in that regard is not rational … just a matter of preference.  Mmkay?

B.

Re: UFOs

I have seen a UFO.  It was in Raleigh NC in 2004.  I was doing a time-lapse shot of the Raleigh skyline from a hotel balcony with a cameraman for NBC Olympics.  It was 6:30 in the morning and I was looking North-easterly and saw a blackish dot eight fingers above the horizon moving in a sine wave at incredible speed.  It covered 70 degrees of my lateral field of vision in about four seconds before disappearing behind a cloud bank. It made about four complete crests and troughs of the wave.  And of course the cameraman didn't see it nor was the camera pointed in that direction…   Classic! 

Watch a jet at distance and estimate 70 degrees of your vision and see how long it takes for the jet at probably 3 to 400 miles an hour to cover that area.  It puts the object I saw at speeds well into the thousands per hour.  I have no idea what it was but the speed and movement were fascinating…utterly remarkable.

Michael your post in particular pique my interest.  You've mentioned many things from the McKenna's to your ideas on 2012 that awakened my own views on the subject.  My own musings on this are based on some things I've studied indicating that yes we will cross the “galactic plane” which is an inertia plane acting like a fulcrum to our lever movements above and below it - so to speak.

I agree with you.  This won't precipitate an “end of time” but rather I think an experience of “no time,” a suspension of time.  We will enter a duration (?) of inertia in plane - a stillness where events “seemingly” stretch to a stop and with no events there is no way to mark time.  This could and will be frightening to those unaccustomed to meditation, contemplation, stillness, beauty, or a lack of stimulus.  We will experience the still power of the galactic fulcrum in equilibrium - I think…  Some may experience nothing out of the ordinary as this will be an inner phenomenon based on conditioning - or so I think.

The Mayans don't detail chaos as the experience will be individually subjective.  There's no way to know how the collective will respond.  I'm sure a full spectrum of unbridled fear all the way to bliss will be experienced.  Some will recoil and some will unwind and open to new perspectives.  Then again this is the future we're talking about and it may just be another day and my thoughts may just be good old fashioned magical thinking…

…But back to it, I know that I saw something.  I don't know what it was, perhaps, a natural phenomenon I'm unaware of…        Beats me, it was cool, though.

Re: UFOs

Rod,

Thanks for the feedback esp. the piece about the fulcrum.  I had not heard it put quite that way before and can, ummmmm….. “drop” into it a bit and see how such a “pause” in “flight” very well might produce a “cessation of time” effect.

I think that this is one of those “red pill, blue pill” situations - freak out and fight or freak out and flee.  Screw the pills I say, just chop wood/carry water and be extra liberal with the affection in our lives.  Its like trying to prepare for a tidal wave that may come from any direction including up and down, outside-in. or inside-out.  This is not the first time that millenial fever has swept the land in the last 100 years or so.  This time seems a bit more genuinely pregnant though.  It sure seems capable of focusing our attention on just how small the earth is in relation to what's out there, and we just little micro-bugs scrabbling around this tiny dot so convinced that the entire thing is all about us.  The irony is that maybe it is all about us, or me, I mean.

Yer pal,
Michael

Re: UFOs

Hi Everyone

I've followed this thread with an increasing sigh of relief.

Bruce:  The only “classical” UFO sighting I've had took place when I was a boy.  I watched a greenish point of light move across the sky, and then make a sharp right angle turn and fly away at a very high speed.  I've had some other, archetypal dream-like experiences that mirror other aspects of this phenomenon. 

I didn't know that a greenish point of light was a classic UFO sighting. I had this experience alongside my Aunt when I was about 17. It was new years eve and we'd gone back to my house to pick up some albums. We saw a very green point of light hovering over the hill against which our houses were set, it then moved away quickly. we sort of rationalised it as a firework but there was no noise, no fading and it was in the time when fireworks were ONLY used on Bonfire Night here in the UK.

A second incident happened maybe 15 years ago. We were woken in the middle of the night by a huge noise that sounded as if there was a jet plane taxi-ing or whatever on our street. It was really strange because the sound was so loud, sort of all-surrounding almost a physical sensation but it didn't hurt my ears (which usually happens for me with loud sound because of various ENT issues from childhood). I went outside to find the cats, several neighbours were out in their nightwear. We were just surrounded by this noise but there was nothing to see. The noise continued for 10-15 minutes as if directly overhead and then faded. I rang the police but couldn't get through. I rang the local paper in the morning expecting some logical explanation. They said the police had had several calls about the noise but had no idea about the cause. I was then treated to an interview by the local 'hack' who was desperately trying to get me to use the acronym UFO, which of course I resisted - what would people think?!!!!! And there the story died but to this day I have absolutely no idea what the noise was. We have no heavy industry or airfield etc in the area.

Juliee

Re: UFOs

Great thread, Bruce & all.

Although this slightly departs from where this dialogue is at right now, I think many of you might be interested in this intelligently written article by Laura Knight Jadczyk who is a hypnotherapist and one from her husband, a physicist.

Ultra-terrestrials and 9-11

The article is complex and scientific in its approach,  will only quote the last paragraph, but it's worth reading the whole thing if you have a head for numbers etc.

We don't know - and cannot know at present - whether some super secret beam weapon was used to take down the Twin Towers on 9/11; but it is possible. And frankly, it is the one explanation that seems to cover all the anomalies. Bottom line is: Something is happening, there is a schedule, and the servants of the alien masters are pushing an agenda that few of us understand. They are trying to cement controls, to solidify their power base, because Something Wicked This Way Comes.

Re: UFOs

“We don't know - and cannot know at present - whether some super secret beam weapon was used to take down the Twin Towers on 9/11; but it is possible.”

We don't know , and cannot know at present, whether some enormous but invisible – and mutated – alien aircrafts and glowing crystals with massive firepower, created by an ancient civilization of raving duck-billed platypuses and evil sloths, lost for centuries but now finally uncovered by a super secret excavation team venturing into the darkest depths of the Amazon, who then launched it far, far into the furthest reaches of the galaxy where it exploded into a billion peices, and then by the powers of human thought alone merged together to form an organic superweapon too frightening to imagine and too horrifying to even conceptualize by an intelligent mind, which then with an enourmous blast set off straight towards Tellus, dodging planets and gods on its way, to finally burst through the atmosphere – in a hail of rainbows – and then finally, in a mighty climatic thrust, transfigured into a robotic George W Bush II holding an american flag in one hand and Mao Zedong in the other, crying: “MAY ALL BEINGS BE FREE FROM THE OCEAN OF SAMSARA” and then crashed into the World Trade Center on 9/11, in the EXACT same moment as a plane, type Boing, came from the other direction – but was of course only an optical illusion – which resulted in a worldspread wave of fear being injected into the populations of the world, leading inexorably, to eventually to a (secret) war on a global scale which benefits an ultra secret group of few very powerful men controlling everything, and especially YOU, and your family and your bank account … but it is possible.

This is all supported by modern quantum science of course. The evidence for this is simply astounding.

Re: UFOs

The quote I posted above was clearly designed to put people off reading the article. I re-read the article myself and still feel it is worth looking at if you are interested in the possibility of UFOs - not because of the conclusion above, but because of the data provided within the article. There is also an interesting interview with the author on BBC radio here.

Re: UFOs

There are a lot of unexplained things out there, but from an integral perspective we shouldn't try to explain the unexplained. An Orange (rational perspective) might try to explain away UFOs with mundane explanations, and they would probably be right some of the time. But all of the time? Who knows. No one really knows, so we should just stay open, not give in to the temptation to come to conclusions when there isn't evidence to support a conclusion. The truth of some of these things may be even more amazing than creatures from another planet. The universe is so amazingly big, it would make more sense to me that there is life on other planets rather than not, but as far as we really know–as far as there is really evidence for–human beings are the most developed. 

David

PS. My favorite UFO sighting.

Re: UFOs

Hey guys-

Saw this post on the front page, and just wanted to drop in my 2 cents.

I am very fascinated by this topic, and have seen three UFOs on seperate occations.  Twice in Philadelphia, and once at the Jersey Shore.  From what I have seen- I believe these aircraft to be man-made.  It is my personal belief that while kagillions of other planets and space time realities exist- we are not interacting with each other in the physical.  Is it possible to reach other worlds?  I think so- but I think we have to look at things like radio waves to get a better understanding of how that may be done.

Interesting stuff.

Re: UFOs

Dave said:
From what I have seen- I believe these aircraft to be man-made.  It is my personal belief that while kagillions of other planets and space time realities exist- we are not interacting with each other in the physical.

I think the main argument against all UFOs being man-made (aside from the physics-defying properties of many UFO craft) is that the phenomenon has been reported throughout history.  It isn't unique to the 20th and 21st centuries.  Three really good books on this point – as well as on the ability of UFO occupants to apparently bridge physical (gross) and nonphysical (subtle) realms – are Dimensions by Jacques Vallee, Supernatural by Graham Hancock, and the amazingly well written Angels and Aliens by Keith Thompson – who was, for a time, the president of Integral Institute.

The first person to really delve into humanity's ancient interactions with UFOs was Carl Jung in his 1958 book Flying Saucers.  But for one of the most easily accessible ancient sighting (and abduction) reports, check out the first chapter of Ezekiel in the Bible. :)

-Tom

Re: UFOs

serendipitously, i just posted a blog about this topic as well. allow me to share the link here:

http://coolmel.zaadz.com/blog/2007/11/ufos_the_truth_whatever_it_is_is_out_there

FYI, the UFO conference in Washington today was held at the National Press Club. it's not covered in the mainstream news for some reason. but i think it will be featured on Anderson Cooper 360 tonight at CNN. will check that out too :)

see: http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/11/09/simington.ufocommentary/index.html

“Former Arizona Governor Fife Symington will be moderating a November 12 event at the National Press Club where he will discuss the Phoenix Lights incident. He says he will be joined by 14 former high-ranking military and government officials from seven countries who will share evidence from what they call their own UFO experiences and investigations.”

Re: UFOs

Thanks, C4, for posting a link to your blog.  I was just about to do so!  You've got some excellent links and clips there.

Best wishes,

B.

Re: UFOs

Edit: Just saw C4 posted the same info while I was assembling this one. Oh, what the heck. Here goes…

Balder, I'm very interested in reading more of those court transcripts you said you've kept in your OP. I've been researching UFO and related phenomena on and off since my first encounter with a cigar-shaped craft  in the '80s and have been hired as a consultant on media projects since then occasionally (good money btw. :-)
 

Here's what's happening today in terms of public disclosure:

PILOTS TO TELL THEIR UFO STORIES FOR FIRST TIME


UFO Close Encounters
The Reality as Seen by Former High Level Government and Military Officials


November 12th Group to call on US Government to Re-Open its Investigation

WHEN: Monday, November 12, 2007 11:00 AM

WHERE: National Press Club Ballroom Event open to credentialed media and Congressional staff only

The American public is not alone when it comes to sighting what the US Air Force has labeled Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs). So too have former governors, high level military and government officials, highly trained airplane pilots and aviation experts. The phenomenon is real. It happens worldwide. No one is sure about its nature. Experts from seven countries will divulge what they have discovered about UFOs at a November 12 panel discussion moderated by former Arizona Governor Fife Symington (R) at the National Press Club.

Just one year ago, pilots, mechanics and managers from United Airlines witnessed a metallic disc-shaped object hovering over the United Airlines Terminal at Chicago's O'Hare Airport. The clearly observed object shot straight up leaving a hole through the clouds. Despite the clear aviation safety issues involved, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) never investigated the incident and dismissed it as weather. This head-in-the-clouds refusal to investigate stands in sharp contrast to efforts by governments of other countries to understand these incidents.

“I believe that our government should take an active role in investigating this very real phenomenon,” said Symington, who was a witness to the famed 'Phoenix Lights” incident seen by hundreds in Arizona while he was governor. “This panel consists of some of the most qualified people in the world with direct experience in dealing with this issue, and they will bring incredible, irrefutable evidence, some never presented before, that we simply cannot dismiss or ignore,” he said.

The group, using previously classified documents, will discuss many well-documented cases, including two investigated by the US government. The first involves a Peruvian Air Force pilot who fired many rounds at a UFO which was not affected. The second was an Iranian Air Force pilot's attempt to fire at a UFO, but whose control panel became inoperable. “This case is a classic that meets all the necessary conditions for a legitimate study of the UFO phenomenon,” stated the US Defense Intelligence Agency document on the Tehran incident. Both pilots will come forward to speak about these events publicly for the first time.

WHO: Fife Symington, Former Arizona Governor, Moderator
Ray Bowyer, Captain, Aurigny Air Services, Channel Islands
Rodrigo Bravo, Captain and Pilot for the Aviation Army of Chile
General Wilfried De Brouwer, former Deputy Chief of Staff, Belgian Air Force (Ret.)
John Callahan, Chief of Accidents and Investigations for the FAA, 1980's (Ret.) Dr. Anthony Choy, founder, 2001, OIFAA, Peruvian Air Force
Jean-Claude Duboc, Captain, Air France (Ret.)
Charles I. Halt, Col. USAF (Ret.), Former Director, Inspections Directorate, DOD I.G.
General Parviz Jafari, Iranian Air Force (Ret.)
Jim Penniston, TSgt USAF (Ret.)
Dr. Claude Poher, Centre National d'Etudes Spatiales, founder, French GEPAN
Nick Pope, Ministry of Defence, UK, 1985-2006
Dr. Jean-Claude Ribes, Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, France, 1963-98
Comandante Oscar Santa Maria, Peruvian Air Force (Ret.)

[……]

~~~~~

Michael, great letter, but (yes, there is a but…) I was hoping for insights into how extraterrestrial or interdimensional information impacts your everyday life and behavior. Same question for Will who has gone AWOL from this thread for some reason.

Lightly, open-mindedly,

your pal too :)

Re: UFOs

Mascha,

Pretty busy these days and a bit reluctant to get into my “et” influences as they are of the really “out there” variety - not sure whether some of them actually happened or are just products of my somewhat feverish imagination.

More later, if I get a sufficient dose of “what the hell …”

yer pal,
Michael

Re: UFOs

I watched the movie: The Day the Earth Stood Still - on Sunday night.

http://imdb.com/title/tt0043456/

Pretty good recent yet historical projection of the multiple imaginaries we've associated with life beyond Earth. It's classic, and cracked me up!

Interesting to read all of your delvings. Even more interesting to hear how convinced some of you are that your souls originate from other planets. How can we know, thats the ultimate voyage isn't it? The subjective experiences of individuals are facinating. To me its as unfathomable as the Kosmic force itself. Despite two specific personal encounters of UFO's - one whilst in a friends garden, and once in a dream - in which, I was watching myself and then partner walk through a field into the distance, while a space-craft of some far out description, hovered over us, and pronounced - in a male voice!, 'You will have a daughter and her name is Fire'….
This made no sense to me, as I was 19 years old (of good mental disposition - i.e. no drugs! etc) at the time and never thought about either life elsewhere, or the possibility of having children. I did have a daughter not long after though, and her name is Autumn, the dancing colours of fire! (named after my favorite season).

I have no interest whatsoever in trying to understand any of this. It just is.

Love
Lisa

Re: UFOs

thanks again to Balder for starting this thread. i think it's more appropriate that i post a direct link from here to the 2001 UFO Disclosure Project Meeting video. very informative. a must-see for UFO enthusiasts as well as for skeptics.

here's the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vyVe-6YdUk

i agree with the objectives. this issue, if proven to be true, is more significant than Global Warming or the tiresome and nauseating religion/science debate. why? because, if proven to be true, we could use the advance technology as an alternative to our current dependency on oil. and a confirmation that we are not alone in the universe would stretch our limited philosophies. in short, it would force humanity to grow up.

for more info, see The Disclosure Project. here's a list of their main objectives:

WE, THE PEOPLE, CALL ON THE U.S. CONGRESS:

• To hold open, secrecy-free hearings on the UFO / Extraterrestrial presence on and around Earth.
  
  
• To hold open hearings on advanced energy and propulsion systems related to the subject that, when publicly released, will provide solutions to global environmental and other challenges.
  
  
• To enact legislation which will ban all space-based weapons.
  
  
• To enact comprehensive legislation to research, develop and explore space peacefully and cooperatively with all cultures on Earth and in space.

Re: UFOs

P.S. i just watched Anderson Cooper 360. the program did cover the UFO Conference held to today at the National Press Club over at Washington D.C. Anderson Cooper interviewed James Fox (executive producer and director of the UFO documentary, Out of the Blue). of course, they have to have a skeptic on the show so they included James McGaha. but man, that skeptic didn't do a good job. he just basicaly dismissed the testimonies (and physical evidences) of credible individuals. he just played skeptic for skepticism's sake instead of having an interest to do more investigation. that's not the kind of skepticism that would take the conversation further. it's baaad skepticism!

anyway, i'll post a video of the UFO conference and the Anderson Cooper coverage as soon as they're available on Youtube.

in the meantime, check out this blog post for a video snippet of the UFO Conference held today at D.C.

http://realufos.blogspot.com/2007/11/latest-footage-from-biggest-ufo-event.html

and speaking of “Out of the Blue”, here's a link to the first part of the documentary.

http://videos.zaadz.com/284239/out_of_the_blue_pt_1_of_8

that is all for now.

~C

Re: UFOs

C4,

It's a shame, I spent an hour last night posting to this pod about The Disclosure Project only to log on today and see it vanished into the zero point energy field!  Anyhoo, lemme regurgitate points:

This summer, I discovered the Disclosure Project as well, and in my usual style dove right in, spending many a late night on the computer watching said youtube as well as many interviews with Dr. Steven Greer (founder of the Diclosure Project and CSETI movement). 

Dr. Greer seems to be operating from a second tier altitude, as well as a deep spiritual practitioner, which makes it very exciting to see how his work develops.  I recommend his latest book to everyone in this pod.

Also, here's some other great interviews, but do a video search of “Steven Greer” and a plethora will pop up.

Please comment / critique–I thrive on challenging discussion!

-B

Re: UFOs

thanks for the book recommendation. i've added it to my reading list. i'm new to Steven Greer so i'm still catching up. saw this video of him talking about consciousness, meditation, etc. which sound like New Agey stuff but for some reason he strikes me as very credible and truthful. i don't know. i'll check up on him some more. in the meantime here's a video of him talking about the Disclosure Project and its objective to raise the consciousness of everyone on the planet. he even talked about Dennis Kucinich in this video! check out the 1:09:12 mark.

UFO Disclosure Project - Dr. Steven Greer - Hidden Truth Forbidden Knowledge

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5970516724842544272

and btw, i also found this video:

Xcon 2004 - Steven Greer, M.D. - The Untold Story of the Disclosure Project

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1127596292178999687

Steven Greer's arguments are hair-raising. he's arguing from an alternative energy perspective. remember that this video was during a 2004 conference. Greer mentioned that we're lucky if the price of oil is $10 per barrel in 5 years. well, the price of oil per barrel as of this writing is a whopping $94.65 per barrel! [ed note: Casey had corrected me on this. Greer actually mentioned “You think gas is expensive now? Wait five or ten years. You'll be lucky if you can buy it for five or ten dollars a gallon.” (see 11:58 mark on this video)]

this issue is really more interesting than Global Warming. if Greer is correct, then acknowledging the implications of extraterrestrial technology could be our best chance of leapfrogging our current technology to save ourselves from the devastating effects of Climate Change (and wars, and peak-oil, and more).

~C

Re: UFOs

There is article today about UFOs today from Reuters. Here is an excerpt:

“The Air Force investigated 12,618 UFO reports from 1947 to 1969 in what was known as Project Blue Book. Investigators concluded that the incidents posed no threat and there was no evidence of space aliens or a super technology in operation.

'Since the termination of Project Blue Book, nothing has occurred that would support a resumption of UFO investigations,' the Air Force said on its Web site.”

Probably the most reasoned source we've seen so far here.

Some of the U.S. sightings, such as the one in Phoenix in 1997, might have been military experiments. They were doing things like learning how to project images onto clouds as a form of psychological warfare. It wouldn't surprise me if they set up experiments with space-ship-like aircraft to see what effect it would have on people if they saw it.

David

Re: UFOs

David, check out this pic of an airship that a friend of mine sent me this morning: http://www.kolchinsky.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/rossiya-4001-airship-2.jpg

I don't doubt that things like this have been used for Psych Warfare purposes (both foreign and domestic) for decades…

Re: UFOs

have you noticed how *watered down* the coverage of this event on U.S. mainstream media? as far as i know only CNN covered this in detail. they even aired the conference live on the CNN website. but the Anderson Cooper coverage i've seen is very luke warm. hopefully, someone would post that video on youtube so i could link to it.

speaking of *watered down*, check out this very *watered down* coverage from NYTimes via Reuters,
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/news/news-usa-ufos.html

and Fox News:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,311177,00.html

compare this with this news coverage. it's short too but it has more details, like names and quotes from witnesses.

ABC News Australia: Ex-pilots, military officers call for new UFO probe
http://abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/13/2089628.htm

but most coverage has no mention the names of the credible witnesses. for example, like Nick Pope, Ministry of Defence, UK, 1985-2006 and so on.

i'm no conspiracy theorist but i smell something fishy.

but anyway, for a list of all the witnesses check out this PRWEB release of the event:

——–

PRWeb: Pilots to Tell Their UFO Stories for the First Time
http://www.prweb.com/releases/Unidentified_Flying/object_UFO_event/prweb567548.htm

(PRWEB) November 7, 2007 – The American public is not alone when it comes to sighting what the US Air Force has labeled Unidentified Flying Objects (UFOs). So too have former governors, high level military and government officials, highly trained airplane pilots and aviation experts. The phenomenon is real. It happens worldwide. No one is sure about its nature. Experts from seven countries will divulge what they have discovered about UFOs at a November 12 panel discussion moderated by former Arizona Governor Fife Symington (R) at the National Press Club (www.freedomofinfo.org).

Just one year ago, pilots, mechanics and managers from United Airlines witnessed a metallic disc-shaped object hovering over the United Airlines Terminal at Chicago’s O’Hare Airport. The clearly observed object shot straight up leaving a hole through the clouds. Despite the clear aviation safety issues involved, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) never investigated the incident and dismissed it as weather. This head-in-the-clouds refusal to investigate stands in sharp contrast to efforts by governments of other countries to understand these incidents.

“I believe that our government should take an active role in investigating this very real phenomenon,” said Symington, who was a witness to the famed ‘Phoenix Lights” incident seen by hundreds in Arizona while he was governor. “This panel consists of some of the most qualified people in the world with direct experience in dealing with this issue, and they will bring incredible, irrefutable evidence, some never presented before, that we simply cannot dismiss or ignore,” he said.

The group, using previously classified documents, will discuss many well-documented cases, including two investigated by the US government. The first involves a Peruvian Air Force pilot who fired many rounds at a UFO which was not affected. The second was an Iranian Air Force pilot’s attempt to fire at a UFO, but whose control panel became inoperable. “This case is a classic that meets all the necessary conditions for a legitimate study of the UFO phenomenon,” stated the US Defense Intelligence Agency document on the Tehran incident. Both pilots will come forward to speak about these events publicly for the first time.

Who:    

• Fife Symington, Former Arizona Governor, Moderator
• Ray Bowyer, Captain, Aurigny Air Services, Channel Islands
• Rodrigo Bravo, Captain and Pilot for the Aviation Army of Chile
• General Wilfried De Brouwer, former Deputy Chief of Staff, Belgian Air Force (Ret.)
• John Callahan, Chief of Accidents and Investigations for the FAA, 1980’s (Ret.)        
• Dr. Anthony Choy, founder, 2001, OIFAA, Peruvian Air Force        
• Jean-Claude Duboc, Captain, Air France (Ret.)
• Charles I. Halt, Col. USAF (Ret.), Former Director, Inspections Directorate, DOD I.G.
• General Parviz Jafari, Iranian Air Force (Ret.)
• Jim Penniston, TSgt USAF (Ret.)
• Dr. Claude Poher, Centre National d’Etudes Spatiales, founder, French GEPAN
• Nick Pope, Ministry of Defence, UK, 1985-2006
• Dr. Jean-Claude Ribes, Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique, France, 1963-98
• Comandante Oscar Santa Maria, Peruvian Air Force (Ret.)

When:    
Monday, November 12, 2007
11:00 AM

Where:   
National Press Club
Ballroom
Event open to credentialed media and Congressional staff only

Re: UFOs

Hi Balder, C4, Et Al.,

Awesome thread! :)  I've been toying with the idea of an “integral ufology” since around 1997, when I was still dreaming of becoming a professional ufologist, filing FOIA requests with the NSA (you can now get all the same whited-out documents they sent me online), doing my high-school senior social studies project on “50 Years of the Government's UFO Coverup in America,” etc.  And then I stumbled upon the works of Ken Wilber.

The only truly second-tier ufologist I know of is the great Jacques Vallee.  He recently came out of “hiding,” so to speak, with an appearance on Coast to Coast AM in September and by giving the keynote talk at a conference in Las Vegas in October about his involvement in US military remote-viewing research.  I blogged about him here, along with a little explanation of why I think he's an integral thinker.  I'd be interested to see what you all think of it.

I wrote up some of my Integral Ufology ideas a couple of years ago, which I'll post here.  I've never shared these with anyone before, so see if my idea makes sense–and if not, I can try to clarify…

Outline of an Integral Ufology

8/26/05

Start by laying out all the various facets of the phenomenon (and related phenomena):

1. Sightings (1947-present, WWII foo fighters, 1897 airships, and all prior-to-1947 sightings in general)—includes: CE-I (object), CE-II (object and being/s), and CE-III (communication by, or interaction with, being/s).
2. Abductions (CE-IV and CE-V), historical and modern (reasons for? genetics, hybrids, reincarnation connections apparent in Mack’s and Strieber’s work, DMT: The Spirit Molecule, etc.)
3. Government coverup/conspiracy (Roswell, MJ-12, Area 51, reverse-engineering, alien bodies, Blue Book, CIA psych warfare, etc.)
4. UFOs throughout history: “Angels and Aliens” (demons, elves, nephilim, piskeys, gnomes, fairies, etc.; Vedanta correlations; von Daniken; and Jacques Vallee’s work in general—interdimensional aliens; varying perceptions of same phenomenon through the lens of different stages of consciousness)
5. Mythological and psychic dimensions (Carl Jung’s “Flying Saucers,” von Daniken, Sitchin, Vallee’s “control system” theory, Strieber’s experiences and speculations; social dimensions: UFO cults, Roswell craze, Lady of Fatima sighting, Phoenix Lights, etc.)
   
6. Crop Circles and Cattle Mutilations (Linda Moulton Howe, et al.; phenomena historically… “piskey rings,” etc.)
7. Ancient Astronauts—Mars/Moon/Atlantis connections (theories of underground bases, underwater bases, hollow Earth, von Daniken, Hoagland, Hancock, Sitchin, NASA, remote-viewing, etc.)
8. Cryptozoology connections (Bigfoot, Loch Ness, Mothman, Jersey Devil, Cornish Owlman, etc., especially as related to Vallee’s interdimensional theory)
9. Related paranormal/subtle phenomena (teleportation, psychokinesis, telepathy, ghosts, angels, OBEs, mysterious lights [i.e., Lubbock Lights], demonology and sleep paralysis; plus dreams of aliens, aliens seen with the deceased, reincarnation and abductions, etc., etc.)
   
10. Varying Theories & Skepticism (and social dimensions of both—why do people today champion the ETH? why do people vociferously deny it? why do Vallee’s theories slip under the radar? why does Wilber, or academics in general, not give any more mention to UFOs than passing jabs at the obvious—and inherently unavoidable—narcissism of baby-boomer abductees?)

Re: UFOs

Soulplex,

very interesting. thanks for the link. will check it out.

personally, i find Dr. Steven M. Greer very credible, although i'm still holding reservations until i find out more about the guy. what's more fascinating about him is that he's able to organize and convince people with impeccable credentials to testify to congress about their UFOs and extraterrestrials. see The Disclosure Project. i mean, it's not that easy to dismiss Greer as some UFO crackpot with a conspiracy theory.

i'm collecting videos of him for those who are interested to know more about the guy. check out this link: http://videos.zaadz.com/tagged/Steven+greer

anyway, speaking of integral ufology, how about WIE magazine doing a cover story on UFOs? you guys can interview Steven Greer and find out more about the Disclosure Project? i'd buy that issue in a heartbeat :)

~C

Re: UFOs

Hi, C4, thanks for the links to the videos of Dr. Greer.  I look forward to checking them out.  I used to hear him on the radio from time to time in Virginia and was also impressed with him.  He seemed like a bright, clear, credible person, not a crackpot.  And his ideas on alternative energy sources – and the reasons they might be discouraged internationally – are very interesting and not a little disturbing.

I have not met Dr. Greer yet, but I spoke to him on the phone when I was transcribing interviews for the Disclosure Project.  I did meet his wife, who brought the tapes by to me.  Interestingly, when she gave them to me, she warned me to be careful.  She said the last person working on them got threatened by someone and gave up working on them.  I'm not sure what to make of that.  Nothing unusual happened to me.

(Knock on wood!)



P.S.  Excellent idea about the WIE issue!

Re: UFOs

:) Believe me, I've been thinking about writing a grand Pulitzer-worthy UFO article since I joined the staff of WIE.  It's occasionally joked about, and I'm sure it will happen, one way or another…someday.  Maybe in 2012. ;)

I do occasionally manage to work in a mention of ETs or UFOs in some of my shorter pieces, but the longest thing I've written in WIE on the topic so far is a review of the “Phoenix Lights” documentary by Lynne Kitei.  It's the second review on the page here.

I think Steven Greer's credible enough, but like most ufologists, he isn't very integral.  He tends toward the nuts-n-bolts ETH (extraterrestrial hypothesis) of UFO origins, which I find to be far too simplistic an explanation as it's usually stated.  Yes, we may be dealing with beings from other planets in our universe, but if so, we also have to take into account the fact that they seem to have a remarkable capacity to phase in and out of gross-physical manifestation at will, walk through walls, defy the laws of physics, and show up in people's dreams, OBEs, and DMT trips… Here's just one of the countless really weird cases that doesn't necessarily jive with the commonsense idea that we're dealing with little orange/rational scientists from outer space: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelly-Hopkinsville_encounter .

-Tom

Re: UFOs

”:) Believe me, I've been thinking about writing a grand Pulitzer-worthy UFO article since I joined the staff of WIE.  It's occasionally joked about, and I'm sure it will happen, one way or another…someday.  Maybe in 2012. ;)”

Tom,

LOL. well, good luck on the Pulitzer!

seriously, how about covering The Disclosure Project on WIE. there are actual people with high ranks referenced in the briefing documents. and according to The Disclosure Project, the Executive Summary had been distributed to all members of Congress in 2001. it's only $5 to get access to materials and you'd have a list of *credible* high-ranking people to interview on the WIE issue. no need to put an integral spin to it. you can just go by with hardcore journalism 101.

i'll be disappointed with Andrew if he laughs at you. WIE is not suppressed by shadow groups, is it? ;)

c'mon, if Larry King can cover UFOs then what does WIE got to lose? i think you should jump on this bandwagon while it's hot! i'll be looking forward to that WIE UFO Pulitzer Prize winning issue ;)

~C

P.S. in your review of the Phoenix Lights Documentary, you wrote: “Are we now moving towards our next evolutionary level, the positive maturation and spiritual advancement of consciousness itself?”

Steven Greer says, yes, in this video :)

and here is Former Arizona Governer Fife Symington *admitting* and describing his experience of the Phoenix Lights :)

Re: UFOs

Thanks for your support and encouragement, C4!  Andrew did find the Larry King special the other night fairly persuasive, so…we'll see. :)

I personally am not all that interested these days in Greer's coverup testimonials, because I find the US government's involvement with the phenomenon far less interesting than the phenomenon itself.  I've been convinced of its reality since the mid-90s (seeing a UFO myself while doing an early-morning paper route when I was 15 helped), and once you're convinced it exists, the natural question becomes: Well, what the hell is it? 

I think the whole government angle is seriously murky territory, because it's been well documented that certain elements of the US intelligence community have f-ed with ufologists' heads for their own bizarre purposes.  It becomes hard to tell what's real and what's disinformation.  I have no doubt that many of those military and government employees who are part of the Disclosure Project are telling the truth.  Many of them seem perfectly sane and sincere.  But what “truth” are they telling us?  I think certain elements of the US government have been taking great pains, for decades, to make people believe that they know more about UFOs than they actually do, for two reasons: (1) to present the illusion that “everything's under control,” and (2) to give them an eventual justification, and public support, for the militarization of outer space. 

But the UFO phenomenon itself–stretching back into ancient human history, and probably even pre-history–is a far more fascinating and multidimensional mystery than the Military-Industrial version of the story.  Read some of the contact reports here for a taste of it, or the vast chronology of reports here.  UFOs are strange, and they seem to have always been with us…

Have a look at these images:
Madonna and Child and…UFO.
Flying Saucer on a 17th-Century French Coin.

And here's a nice, thorough collection of BC and AD images, including cave paintings and medieval art: http://www.ufoartwork.com/

As Deep Throat said in season one of the X-Files, “Mr. Mulder, they've been here for a long, long time.” :)

So when I do write a piece on the UFO aliens, it will have to be with more of a focus as to what they are, where they come from, and what they're doing–and less about what the government knows, or pretends to know, about them.  I think they might be interdimensional beings, not that far removed from other cryptozoological creatures (like Bigfoot), who also somehow operate with full lucidity in both gross and subtle realms (and bodies).  I think Jacques Vallee's “Five Arguments Against the Extraterrestrial Origin of UFOs” is worth quoting:

“Scientific opinion has generally followed public opinion in the belief that unidentified flying objects either do not exist (the 'natural phenomena hypothesis') or, if they do, must represent evidence of a visitation by some advanced race of space travellers (the extraterrestrial hypothesis or 'ETH'). It is the view of the author that research on UFOs need not be restricted to these two alternatives. On the contrary, the accumulated data base exhibits several patterns tending to indicate that UFOs are real, represent a previously unrecognized phenomenon, and that the facts do not support the common concept of 'space visitors.' Five specific arguments articulated here contradict the ETH:

1. unexplained close encounters are far more numerous than required for any physical survey of the earth;
2. the humanoid body structure of the alleged “aliens” is not likely to have originated on another planet and is not biologically adapted to space travel;
3. the reported behavior in thousands of abduction reports contradicts the hypothesis of genetic or scientific experimentation on humans by an advanced race;
4. the extension of the phenomenon throughout recorded human history demonstrates that UFOs are not a contemporary phenomenon; and
5. the apparent ability of UFOs to manipulate space and time suggests radically different and richer alternatives.”

Re: UFOs

Tom,

good luck in getting that exclusive :)

you said: “So when I do write a piece on the UFO aliens, it will have to be with more of a focus as to what they are, where they come from, and what they're doing–and less about what the government knows, or pretends to know, about them.”

personally, i'm not that interested with that angle. we can dissect the origins of UFOs and aliens ad infinitum but it would all be speculation and there will be no practical outcomes of that effort, IMHO.

i care more about the practical implications of the technology and possible alternative energy that could alleviate poverty, suffering, environmental problems and other social issues. if Steven Greer is correct, then it's our moral obligation to get the word out about these technologies that have been withheld from humanity. i agree with him on that reasoning.

here's a video of Dr. Steven Greer's presentation about Advanced Energy Research Organization (AERO) on August 20th in Bethesda, Maryland.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-441768200946303094
(note: pay special attention to the Q&A portion near the end of the video. very juicy :))

and here's a link to AERO's Award Program:
http://www.aero2012.com/en/award.html

——-

AERO Award Program

November 1, 2007

Advanced Energy Research Organization, LLC (AERO) is offering an up-front $200,000 licensing award and minimum $5 million two year royalty program for a qualifying new energy breakthrough.

The Charlottesville, VA energy research company is leading a world-wide search for promising, out-of-the-box inventors and scientists who have provable energy generation inventions that need support, further development and widespread public exposure.

AERO CEO Steven M. Greer MD notes that, “Over the past 100 years, many major energy breakthroughs have withered on the vine, died with the inventor or been absorbed into secretive corporate or government programs. It is AERO's mission to see that these new technologies are protected, supported and massively disclosed to the public so that we can go beyond our current addiction to oil, gas and coal and begin a new, sustainable era in human history.

AERO is uniquely qualified to see that such technological innovations make it to market. Our network includes 'A-list' celebrities, Nobel Prize winners, current and former heads of State and millions of people who follow our work. The inventor or team that has a qualifying system for energy generation will have the full force, support and protection of this unique, global network.”

Re: UFOs

C4 said:
personally, i'm not that interested with that angle. we can dissect the origins of UFOs and aliens ad infinitum but it would all be speculation and there will be no practical outcomes of that effort, IMHO.

i care more about the practical implications of the technology and possible alternative energy that could alleviate poverty, suffering, environmental problems and other social issues. if Steven Greer is correct, then it's our moral obligation to get the word out about these technologies that have been withheld from humanity. i agree with him on that reasoning.

But I don't think the two are necessarily opposed.  If we better understand what UFOs are, then we'll better understand how they operate.  Greer seems committed to the idea that we're dealing with little green men from outer space who visit us in spaceships and have, in fact, crashed here in those spaceships.  Much of his evidence for this comes in the form of “eyewitness” testimony from military personnel, government contractors, etc.  But given how much the US government has actively engaged in disinformation programs to deceive the public–and their own employees–about this subject, I find such testimony highly suspect.  NOT because of any lack of integrity on the part of the eyewitnesses, but because of the demonstrable lack of integrity on the part of the government.  If you can't trust the context, then it makes it harder to trust those who were embedded in that context. 

The best book on the subject of the US government's UFO conspiracy is ”UFOs and the National Security State” by Richard Dolan.  The best book on the supposed “Roswell crash” is ”Body Snatchers in the Desert” by Nick Redfern, who makes a persuasive case as to why the government is actually happy having people believe that what happened at Roswell in July 1947 was nothing but the crash of an alien spaceship.

Now, I don't doubt that the government has developed advanced propulsion technologies based on observed characteristics of UFOs.  And they may have even recovered material from crashed UFOs.  Maybe.  So more power to Greer for demanding that the military share this knowledge with the world rather than hounding their power while the oil runs dry. 

But still, given all I've learned about UFOs and their occupants, I sometimes suspect that even 500 years from now we might not have a clue what they really are.  Three hundred years ago, we were still seeing them as “fairies.”  In the 20th century modernist Space Age, we saw them as little scientific explorers from space.  Who knows how we'll interpret the mystery a hundred years from now… But I think only an integral consciousness is capable of effectively approaching the problem, which is why the great Jacques Vallee probably has the single best perspective on the subject.  Here are some links to many of his interviews and articles.  (”Heretic Among Heretics” is his best interview.)

Tom

Re: UFOs

again, thanks for the links Tom. i'll add the book to my Weird Stuff category :)

you said: “Greer seems committed to the idea that we're dealing with little green men from outer space who visit us in spaceships and have, in fact, crashed here in those spaceships.  Much of his evidence for this comes in the form of “eyewitness” testimony from military personnel, government contractors, etc.”

from what i've seen and learnd by watching Greer's lectures, i don't think that that is Greer's position. he's perspective is much more complex than that. he even makes distinctions between UFOs and ARVs (Alien Reproduction Vehicles). he also says that there is a grand conspiracy for disinformation and misinformation.

see Exopolitics or Xenopolitics?

and i quote: “Today, we see racist appellations applied to certain alleged ET groups – The Grays! The Reptilians! The Tall White Ones! Must we go down this tired, dirty path again? Must we replay the sordid history of human racism, prejudice, and xenophobia as we begin our first steps towards the stars?”

and Greer goes way out there when he starts talking about meditation, ETs, and consciousness. check out his videos and see if you can re-evaluate his position based on his claims.

i'm collecting the videos here :)
http://videos.zaadz.com/tagged/steven+greer

~C

Re: UFOs

Soulplex: The only truly second-tier ufologist I know of is the great Jacques Vallee.  He recently came out of “hiding,” so to speak, with an appearance on Coast to Coast AM in September and by giving the keynote talk at a conference in Las Vegas in October about his involvement in US military remote-viewing research.  I blogged about him here, along with a little explanation of why I think he's an integral thinker.  I'd be interested to see what you all think of it.

~~~

Hey Tom

The UFO thang doesn't hold my interest much anymore - for one thing, the “signal to noise” ratio in just about any UFO discussion is severely…suboptimal.  But I popped in to see if anybody has mentioned Jaques Vallee, who was the only author on the phenomenon who held my interest for long back in the day when I was a little obsessed with such things.  Your blog entry on him is excellent, thanks for linking to that. 

From the wikipedia entry on Jacques Vallee:

~~~

Vallee's interpretation of the UFO evidence

Vallée proposes that there is a genuine UFO phenomenon, partly associated with a form of non-human consciousness that manipulates space and time. The phenomenon has been active throughout human history, and seems to masquerade in various forms to different cultures. In his opinion, the intelligence behind the phenomenon attempts social manipulation by using deception on the humans with whom they interact.

Vallée also proposes that a secondary aspect of the UFO phenomenon involves human manipulation by humans. Witnesses of UFO phenomena undergo a manipulative and staged spectacle, meant to alter their belief system, and eventually, influence human society by suggesting alien intervention from outer space. The ultimate motivation for this deception is probably a projected major change of human society, the breaking down of old belief systems and the implementation of new ones. Vallée cannot say who or what is behind this scheme, only that the evidence, if carefully analysed, suggests an underlying plan for the deception of mankind by means of psychotronic technology. It is highly unlikely that governments actually conceal alien evidence, as the popular myth suggests. Rather, it is much more likely that that is exactly what the manipulators want us to believe. Vallée feels the entire subject of UFO's is mystified by charlatans and science fiction. He advocates a stronger and more serious involvement of science in the UFO research and debate. Only this can reveal the true nature of the UFO phenomenon.

Vallée's view of UFO investigative efforts

Vallée is often highly critical of UFO investigators overall, both believers and sceptics, asserting that what often passes for an acceptable level of investigation in a UFO context would be considered sloppy and seriously inadequate investigation in other fields. He has written pointing out logical flaws and methodological flaws common in such research. Unlike many critics of UFO investigative efforts, his critiques are not condescending and dismissive and he indicates that he is simply interested in good science.

Concerns regarding the UFO subculture

Vallée's Messengers of Deception is recognised as an important sociological work in its own right, since the subject of this 1975 study is UFO contactees and cults as opposed to the UFO phenomenon itself. In the course of the study Vallée expresses concern about the often authoritarian political and religious views expressed by many contactees. Amongst the groups profiled are the nascent Raelian movement and an early form of the Heaven's Gate suicide cult, against which Vallee prophetically warned potential converts, “you only risk your life!”

~~~

Re: UFOs

Soulplex: The only truly second-tier ufologist I know of is the great Jacques Vallee.  He recently came out of “hiding,” so to speak, with an appearance on Coast to Coast AM in September and by giving the keynote talk at a conference in Las Vegas in October about his involvement in US military remote-viewing research.  I blogged about him here, along with a little explanation of why I think he's an integral thinker.  I'd be interested to see what you all think of it.

~~~

Hi Tom and all

For easy reference, here are links to all the parts of the Coast to Coast show you mention, which is posted on Youtube in twelve parts. 

Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part One

Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part Two

Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part Three

Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part Four

Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part Five

Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part Six

Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part Seven
Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part Eight

Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part Nine

Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part Ten

Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part Eleven

Jacques Vallee Coast to Coast interview Part Twelve

~~~

Re: UFOs

Soulplex: The only truly second-tier ufologist I know of is the great Jacques Vallee.

~

Jacques Vallée interviewed by Daily Grail

TDG: When we look at ufology in the 1960s, versus today, I'm not sure a lot of progress has been made (perhaps even the opposite). Is ufology a sisyphean endeavour, unworthy of our prolonged attention? You've personally devoted almost 50 years of research and writing to exploring the phenomenon - can you give a simple opinion to the question: what is behind the UFO phenomenon?

Jacques Vallée: You’re asking me two different questions here. I have convinced myself that there was a real UFO phenomenon once the errors, hoaxes and occasional manipulations were screened out. We do know a great deal more today than we did just 10 years ago, thanks to dedicated researchers who have invested their time and resources to documenting the data. That is not as good as a serious scientific research effort, but one should never underestimate what can be achieved by motivated amateurs. This being said, it would be unrealistic to expect quick solutions, in this field as in any other scientific endeavor.

I have also been interested in the nature of consciousness, and that field has not gotten closer to a solution in fifty years either. Similarly, look at some of the lingering enigmas in archaeology, or in medicine: all we can do is document our data and hope someone will make sense of it at a later time.

Re: UFOs

Here's a good CNN clip on yesterday's press conference in D.C.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrDblT-j70M

Re: UFOs

cool! thanks i've been digging for that :)

Re: UFOs

Hey, Tom, great to see you here! I love the Integral Ufology. That's exactly what we need.

One thing I'd like to know is if we can, by a person's description, discern whether they saw a gross-realm phenomonon (like the picture you linked, which I love) or a subtle-realm phenomenon. An integral theory of what sort of cultural overlays or interpretations people would put on their experiences would also help a lot. The credibility of witnesses would also have to be determined in an integral way for each sighting.

Thanks for the link on Steven Greer, C4. It was interesting looking at the Wikipedia article about him. Here is an excerpt:

“Back in the early 1960s, when I was eight or nine. Some neighborhood boys and I saw a disc-shaped, windowless object that hovered, silent, then simply vanished. My parents said, “That's very nice” and ignored it, but I knew what I'd seen, and it was life-changing.”

How would we know he didn't just see some government experiment? It brings in to question the ethics of testing these things out on the general population–maybe the guy's whole life was determined by military experiment! Of course it may also have been the experiment of some 16 year old down the street (and, of course, it could have been the real ET as well, but we would have to be skeptical about the reports of an eight or nine year old).

Then when he was 37 he had this experience:

“This thing came within a few hundred feet of us and only 10 feet above the ground. It signaled to us for about 10 or 15 minutes. It was an extraordinary event.”

“In March of 1997, during an event near Atlimeyaya, Mexico, Greer and his CSETI team encountered two soldiers who were carrying AK-47 rifles and who had no insignia on their uniforms. ^[22][23] Believing they were in danger, Greer and the team prayed for protection from the ”Divine Being”, which kindly influenced the two soldiers for both soldiers dropped their rifles, walked to a van, picked up guitars and starting playing them, allowing Greer and the team the chance to escape. ^[22][23]”

Re: UFOs

:D  yes, magenta indeed!  I said that with a smile on my face, knowing the context in which I was invoking a superstition.

I think it's possible that some of the things that are witnessed might be test runs or experiments with high level, secret US technology.  That's a reasonable assumption – easier to believe, in general, than the idea that we are being visited by aliens.  However, some of the incidents do appear to involve elements that are likely beyond our own ability to replicate.  Also, these events happen around the world, and to imagine that all of them are attributable to secret US experiments stretches credibility – particularly since we have testimony of such experiences that go back for six decades (or beyond, if you consider some references in traditional myths and teachings).

In a previous post, I started touching on what an Integral approach to this subject would be, so I appreciate what Soulplex is doing.  I agree that there is a place with this phenomenon where the line appears to be blurred between gross and subtle state experience, and some folks (such as Strieber) suggest that the individuals we are dealing with actually can operate with equal facility in both perspective dimensions – appearing subtly to folks, psychically or energetically, as well as physically.

Some of this stuff is way out there, and I am uneasy getting “behind” it.  But I've had some unsual experiences that have piqued my curiosity.  Earlier, I mentioned having several visionary experiences while camping out in Arizona.  Some of the elements of one of these intense experiences matched very closely a similar encounter and “testing” Strieber described in one of his Communion books, which I read a good while after having the experience.  It impressed me so much that I wrote to Strieber to talk to him about it.  I made it clear that the experience, while very intense and vivid and involving elements that were quite different from my normal dreams, nevertheless appeared to have been something that happened entirely in the subtle dream state.  In the experience, I had no sense I was dealing with “aliens” – just with powerful spiritual beings who were putting me through some exercises.  So I was surprised at the overlap of the experience with Strieber's alien encounters.  Strieber wrote me back, but he only made a short comment:  “Don't ignore what happens in your dream states.  There's more to them than you know.”

There are a number of ways to look at this, obviously.  And I recognize that there is an intriguing universality to archetypal images which, while telling and significant in their own right, may nevertheless be entirely a human psychological phenomenon.  But there is also the possibility that sufficient development allows beings (individuals) to navigate in the subtle as well as the physical (spiritual literature worldwide attests to this), and so it would make sense (from an Integral perspective) that beings from a sufficiently advanced culture may be able to “move” in ways we can't imagine, connected to state realization as well as gross physical/cognitive/technical development.

Best wishes,

Balder

Re: UFOs

Cool, Balder!  Your Arizona experience(s) remind me of one of the sightings of my biological father, Don Dixon, which he blogged about here.  You might want to check out ”Supernatural” by Graham Hancock.  It's a very good overview of the striking parallels between UFO phenomena and visionary/shamanic experiences, paying particular attention to the work of Rick Strassman (my review of his book is there on Amazon) and Jacques Vallee.

In “Supernatural,” Hancock writes:

“…Jung described the sightings as a new form of global rumor that 'differs from an ordinary rumor in that it is expressed in the form of visions.'  His inclination was to treat UFOs as 'a 99 per cent psychic product,' yet he admitted he was baffled by their 'apparently physical nature,' which, he lamented, created 'insoluble puzzles for even the best brains':

    'The only thing we can say with tolerable certainty about UFOs is that they possess a surface which can be seen by the eye and at the same time throws back a radar echo.' ”

See – even the great Carl Jung couldn't figure it out. :) 

You said: it would make sense (from an Integral perspective) that beings from a sufficiently advanced culture may be able to “move” in ways we can't imagine, connected to state realization as well as gross physical/cognitive/technical development.

I agree.  And if you read Ken's ”Comprehensive Theory of Subtle Energies,” he talks about the ancient idea that gross-matter crystalizes out of the subtle pranic field, which he correlates with the modern physics idea of a “zero-point” field.  So if you have beings who are capable of maneuvering fully consciously in their subtle bodies, they may also be capable of popping in and out of the gross-realm at will, and creating/condensing gross bodies (and “ships”) out of subtle energies as well… This line of reasoning goes a long way toward a way of explaining pretty much everything “inexplicable” about the phenomenon, including why the aliens seem so interested in souls, reincarnation, reproduction, and the like (as detailed at length by Strieber in his books and online writings, as well as by the late Harvard psychiatrist John Mack in his books ”Abduction” and ”Passport to the Cosmos”). 

In “Communion,” Whitley Strieber suggested that the aliens may represent ”what the force of evolution looks like when applied to a conscious mind.”  And I think there's probably a lot of truth to that, any way you interpret it… If they're projections of our own subconscious, then the phenomenon could signal that we're waking up more and more to a conscious identification with ourselves as Eros, the evolutionary impulse.  And if they're really existing, independent beings of some sort, then they appear to be Kosmocentric – identified with Eros themselves – and interested in pushing forward evolution wherever they can, including among us lowly human beings… (And the truth may lie somewhere in between, which is why I've always liked Strieber's quote so much.)

Whitley also wrote this on his blog at UnknownCountry.com a few months ago:

“I got the impression that they take a long view of history. They are interested in the state of mankind not only this year or in a hundred years, but in a million years and a billion years. The evolution of intelligence is important to them, and they are here to help it through a difficult time on earth, so that it can, in time, reach a state where it offers some sort of value to others.

“I am pretty sure that intelligent life is extremely rare, and that there is a sort of choir of consciousness, and that there is a desire that our voices be joined to it, in the interest of the new.”

The truth is out there …

Re: UFOs

Here's a nice little overview of some of the sighting reports from the 19th century and stretching back into antiquity: http://www.rense.com/ufo4/historyofufo.htm

Re: UFOs

FYI. as promised. here are links to the Youtube videos on the CNN coverage of the UFO Conference at the National Press Club.

CNN UFO Story 11-12-2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrDblT-j70M

CNN about UFO debate at the National Press Club, Nov.12th, 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCGO7Iser4g

UFO Close Encounters - Anderson Cooper CNN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FPH9FtIJkE

and i also posted a follow up blog covering this UFO Conference.

UFO Disclosures, Conspiracies, and Consciousness

enjoy!

~C

Re: UFOs

You know how you can tell a thread is really ludicrous? When people who never otherwise post are really interested. I'm not saying these people shouldn't contribute. I'm asking,”Why don't they?”

I'll tell you. Because they don't like having to logically defend magical thinking. Aliens destroying the twin towers?

Holy shit.

I said nothing at first because I thought others would surely publicly criticize such a ludicrous statement. Several of you have really great minds and have said nothing about all the preposterous ideas on this thread. What you're practicing here is blind compassion, folks. Sorry to kill the party, but there is no way I'm going to pretend I agree by not saying anything. Pull your agency out of your pants and use it, for crissakes.

Liz