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The Integral Pod (formerly I-I+Zaadz, or IIZ) is a discussion group (a.k.a. “pod”) for enthusiasts of the work of Ken Wilber and other proponents of integral thought. Our aim here is to provide a “We-space” for broad discussion of second-tier living, loving and learning. Please read our vision and guidelines – the ...(more)
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  adastra : Curious Mutant

A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

adastra said Sep 29, 2008, 8:53 AM:

 

A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

The global financial crisis will see the US falter in the same way the Soviet Union did when the Berlin Wall came down. The era of American dominance is over

by John Gray

Our gaze might be on the markets melting down, but the upheaval we are experiencing is more than a financial crisis, however large. Here is a historic geopolitical shift, in which the balance of power in the world is being altered irrevocably. The era of American global leadership, reaching back to the Second World War, is over.

You can see it in the way America's dominion has slipped away in its own backyard, with Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez taunting and ridiculing the superpower with impunity. Yet the setback of America's standing at the global level is even more striking. With the nationalisation of crucial parts of the financial system, the American free-market creed has self-destructed while countries that retained overall control of markets have been vindicated. In a change as far-reaching in its implications as the fall of the Soviet Union, an entire model of government and the economy has collapsed.

Ever since the end of the Cold War, successive American administrations have lectured other countries on the necessity of sound finance. Indonesia, Thailand, Argentina and several African states endured severe cuts in spending and deep recessions as the price of aid from the International Monetary Fund, which enforced the American orthodoxy. China in particular was hectored relentlessly on the weakness of its banking system. But China's success has been based on its consistent contempt for Western advice and it is not Chinese banks that are currently going bust. How symbolic yesterday that Chinese astronauts take a spacewalk while the US Treasury Secretary is on his knees.

Despite incessantly urging other countries to adopt its way of doing business, America has always had one economic policy for itself and another for the rest of the world. Throughout the years in which the US was punishing countries that departed from fiscal prudence, it was borrowing on a colossal scale to finance tax cuts and fund its over-stretched military commitments. Now, with federal finances critically dependent on continuing large inflows of foreign capital, it will be the countries that spurned the American model of capitalism that will shape America's economic future.

Which version of the bail out of American financial institutions cobbled up by Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson and Federal Reserve chairman Ben Bernanke is finally adopted is less important than what the bail out means for America's position in the world. The populist rant about greedy banks that is being loudly ventilated in Congress is a distraction from the true causes of the crisis. The dire condition of America's financial markets is the result of American banks operating in a free-for-all environment that these same American legislators created. It is America's political class that, by embracing the dangerously simplistic ideology of deregulation, has responsibility for the present mess.

In present circumstances, an unprecedented expansion of government is the only means of averting a market catastrophe. The consequence, however, will be that America will be even more starkly dependent on the world's new rising powers. The federal government is racking up even larger borrowings, which its creditors may rightly fear will never be repaid. It may well be tempted to inflate these debts away in a surge of inflation that would leave foreign investors with hefty losses. In these circumstances, will the governments of countries that buy large quantities of American bonds, China, the Gulf States and Russia, for example, be ready to continue supporting the dollar's role as the world's reserve currency? Or will these countries see this as an opportunity to tilt the balance of economic power further in their favour? Either way, the control of events is no longer in American hands.

The fate of empires is very often sealed by the interaction of war and debt. That was true of the British Empire, whose finances deteriorated from the First World War onwards, and of the Soviet Union. Defeat in Afghanistan and the economic burden of trying to respond to Reagan's technically flawed but politically extremely effective Star Wars programme were vital factors in triggering the Soviet collapse. Despite its insistent exceptionalism, America is no different. The Iraq War and the credit bubble have fatally undermined America's economic primacy. The US will continue to be the world's largest economy for a while longer, but it will be the new rising powers that, once the crisis is over, buy up what remains intact in the wreckage of America's financial system.

There has been a good deal of talk in recent weeks about imminent economic armageddon. In fact, this is far from being the end of capitalism. The frantic scrambling that is going on in Washington marks the passing of only one type of capitalism - the peculiar and highly unstable variety that has existed in America over the last 20 years. This experiment in financial laissez-faire has imploded.While the impact of the collapse will be felt everywhere, the market economies that resisted American-style deregulation will best weather the storm. Britain, which has turned itself into a gigantic hedge fund, but of a kind that lacks the ability to profit from a downturn, is likely to be especially badly hit.

The irony of the post-Cold War period is that the fall of communism was followed by the rise of another utopian ideology. In American and Britain, and to a lesser extent other Western countries, a type of market fundamentalism became the guiding philosophy. The collapse of American power that is underway is the predictable upshot. Like the Soviet collapse, it will have large geopolitical repercussions. An enfeebled economy cannot support America's over-extended military commitments for much longer. Retrenchment is inevitable and it is unlikely to be gradual or well planned.

Meltdowns on the scale we are seeing are not slow-motion events. They are swift and chaotic, with rapidly spreading side-effects. Consider Iraq. The success of the surge, which has been achieved by bribing the Sunnis, while acquiescing in ongoing ethnic cleansing, has produced a condition of relative peace in parts of the country. How long will this last, given that America's current level of expenditure on the war can no longer be sustained?

An American retreat from Iraq will leave Iran the regional victor. How will Saudi Arabia respond? Will military action to forestall Iran acquiring nuclear weapons be less or more likely? China's rulers have so far been silent during the unfolding crisis. Will America's weakness embolden them to assert China's power or will China continue its cautious policy of 'peaceful rise'? At present, none of these questions can be answered with any confidence. What is evident is that power is leaking from the US at an accelerating rate. Georgia showed Russia redrawing the geopolitical map, with America an impotent spectator.

Outside the US, most people have long accepted that the development of new economies that goes with globalisation will undermine America's central position in the world. They imagined that this would be a change in America's comparative standing, taking place incrementally over several decades or generations. Today, that looks an increasingly unrealistic assumption.

Having created the conditions that produced history's biggest bubble, America's political leaders appear unable to grasp the magnitude of the dangers the country now faces. Mired in their rancorous culture wars and squabbling among themselves, they seem oblivious to the fact that American global leadership is fast ebbing away. A new world is coming into being almost unnoticed, where America is only one of several great powers, facing an uncertain future it can no longer shape.

John Gray is the author of Black Mass: Apocalyptic Religion and The Death of Utopia, published by Penguin.

~~~

  jeepdog : Warrior Poet

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

jeepdog said Sep 29, 2008, 12:52 PM:

 

LOL.  Been there, done that -

The Dow fell 22.61% on Black Monday (1987).  Two days later it rose 10.15%.

The Dow fell 22.61% on Black Monday (1987). Two days later it rose 10.15%.


The Dow fell 14.3% after the September 11, 2001 attacks.  Exchanges were closed between September 10th and September 17th.

 
The Dow fell 14.3% after the September 11, 2001 attacks. Exchanges were closed between September 10th and September 17th.


Let's review the last year, for perspective -


Erm- that would be a little less than 4% drop in a year.


Chart for Dow Jones Industrial Average (INDU)

…. and about .94% in a day.

Yup, Mr. Gray, my “gaze might be on the markets melting down.”

While I do not disagree with the central thesis regarding a geopolitical shift (indeed, not that I would suggest that such a shift would be a “bad” thing), I think the basis of the premise ”the result of American banks operating in a free-for-all environment that these same American legislators created. It is America's political class that, by embracing the dangerously simplistic ideology of deregulation, has responsibility for the present mess” may be a bit askew. 

There are some who argue that the current problems are those of too much regulation and dictating to banks regarding to whom they should lend, with the Subprime lending  program, a program seen as some (Free Money Finance: How the Subprime Lending Meltdown Happened )   in essence forced on the backs of banks.

So, is it de-regulation or too much regulation?  I am not convinced Mr. Gray got it right.

Yet, there's little doubt to me, at least, that he's correctly all over the “America's political class” causing problems.

.

“Truth in Lending,” both in noosphere cut-and-paste and perhaps a better creed in how the US approaches the economy….


  jeepdog : Warrior Poet

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

jeepdog said Sep 29, 2008, 2:15 PM:

 

Quick update - earlier comments were before closing.  Closing was 6.98% down for DJI.  My observation that “we've seen worse” is still valid.

  adastra : Curious Mutant

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

adastra said Sep 29, 2008, 3:29 PM:

 

jeepdog: There are some who argue that the current problems are those of too much regulation…

~

True.  You can find people arguing just about any position, no matter how absurd or disconnected from reality - thanks for the reminder.  :)

cheers,
Arthur

  jeepdog : Warrior Poet

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

jeepdog said Sep 29, 2008, 4:06 PM:

 

You can find people arguing just about any position, no matter how absurd or disconnected from reality

True - and always there is imbedded truth somewhere in that nonsense, regardless of how absurd or disconnected from reality their argument is perceived by us…

  adastra : Curious Mutant

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

adastra said Sep 29, 2008, 5:04 PM:

 

jeepdog: and always there is imbedded truth somewhere in that nonsense, regardless of how absurd or disconnected from reality their argument is perceived by us…

~

That contains a partial enough truth to be hard to argue with. 

namaste,
Arthur

  timelody : Integral Artis Dramatis Musica

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

timelody said Sep 29, 2008, 7:48 PM:

 

The honest free market principal behind deregulation - or no or as little regulation as possible - is that regulation stifles creativity and innovation and ultimately the creation of wealth - all of which are of benefit to everybody. Now, if that creativity, innovation and wealth creation hits a snafu - say, because what seemed like good ideas turned out not to be so - then the principal still stands; let the market recover, learn for itself, not make that mistake again, etc. This is in fact the main reason why the bill didn't pass today. Too many republicans saw a fundamental violation of what can be assumed (ultimately) as this latter principal. Sink or swim, it's not the government's job to fix it. (And what's really interesting is that we can see the same statement being made by democrats from a different perspective. Point being, this is a real Integral problem.)

Now, I am not expert, but personally I think the real problem with the free market principal is that a free market is a LR structure which can be inhabited by any level of the spectrum, and certainly any level of the moral spectrum. This is most definitely something that seems to be completely missed. And though there is probably, sure, some of the above latter principal involved (i.e. some “creative innovations” gone awry in the finance industry (e.g. highly complex subprime loans)), from what I am aware of problems stem much more from sub-orange ethics and morals (or at the very least discipline) than anything else. Thus, the only way that to change that sort of situation that I can think of is … regulations.

It's a tricky question. It is, truly, one of the Integral challenges. To find a way to strike the proper balance, or at least integrate both of these truths (the need for a free market, creativity and innovation and the need for adequate morality and responsibility) or valuable principals into something new.

  gitanjali : co-creating

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

gitanjali said Sep 29, 2008, 9:19 PM:

 

Hey Tim,

My understanding is that Adam Smith's free market principles are not predicated on agents' moral development being adequately developed, (he assumes adequate rule of law underpinning the system and preventing property theft etc but thats different). 

Sub-orange ethics are not expected to undermine the effectiveness of the principles.  The idea is that if someone's selfishness means that they effectively exploit others and dont add value to others portfolios, people will not do business with them in the longer run and they will go out of business. Agents selfishness/greed is limited by the need to “add value” to others and attract customers. This is “the market at work”. This is meant to happen in a relatively smooth manner - bad companies go out of business and companies that add value to their stakeholders and clients stay in business.

So why didnt these principles work this time?

Well, its actually because the textbook's assumptions about when free market principles work best are not upheld in the global financial environment.  These assumptions are “perfectly free competitive markets with perfect information “. In global financial there is a lack of perfect competition - there are companies so huge that if they go out of business they bring the whole system down with them and the social costs of their failure are far beyond the cost to the company itself. 

In addition, there is a lack of perfect information about the health of companies and the quality of loans. These sorts of market failures and others demand an adequate response from government.  

But  because the US government has been operating from an ideological stance that “free markets are the most efficient economic framework”  without realising that certain conditions (which cannot be created in most markets) make that so.  As a result, they reduced(or didnt enact) regulation that was necessary for the system's good functioning.

G

  timelody : Integral Artis Dramatis Musica

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

timelody said Sep 30, 2008, 8:33 AM:

 

Gitanjali!

“You got a thousand dollars in your bank account? I'm taking it. I don't care. I want to retire. I will find a way.”

These are the exact words of a expert mortage loan officer who also specialized in training new loan officers at a loan officer taining session I was for a short time being trained at. The principal above being: the only thing standing between me and someone's money is my conscience, and I don't have one. Becasue it “not illegal,” because I have every tool in the world to make it look good -in fact make it so you don't even notice and never will - and simply because I can I will. Why wouldn't I? “I want to retire!” And, for up and coming financial hot shots (or low level “small change” financial hot shots like this one) this is the working moral principal: if I can make the money right now, as quickly as possible - stealing, after all, is when you break the law! - I will and the rest is not my problem.

This little loan officer meeting was, in essence, the tip of the American financial iceberg in terms of the types of things that were going on in real-time everyday that led in large part (if not all part) to where we are at. There is no getting around that “I don't care. I will find a way” is nothing but a smarter, more educated, and “law abiding” red. “I don't care whose money it is …” in this case, but in bigger cases it was “I don't care how real the money actually is” so long as I get what I'm after and I can “retire.” “I don't care. I will find a way …” (Oh man, I will never forget that. I wanted to shoot the guy.)

So this is what I mean. If someone (or many, many someones) knows how to “play the game” what is anyone to do?

“Well, its actually because the textbook's assumptions about when free market principles work best are not upheld in the global financial environment.”

This is the other part of what I mean also, but I am far to un-informed to comment much on it. And since it's early, I can't recall where this post was going so I'll try to come back later. :-)

  adastra : Curious Mutant

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

adastra said Sep 30, 2008, 9:12 AM:

 

timelody: So this is what I mean. If someone (or many, many someones) knows how to “play the game” what is anyone to do?

~

Change the rules (if you can) or play a different game.  :)

cheers,
Arthur

  Liz : deLizious

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

Liz said Sep 30, 2008, 9:43 AM:

 

I have a friend who has been in the mortgage business for many years, and has gotten out. I used to think the picture she was painting was unnecessarily grim. But she was and is right. We're not talking about something that can be fixed with money. We're talking about the entire industry being unredeemably dirty to the core. This is a woman who has been both inside the beltway and inside the morgage business, and she had to quit her job with nothing else on the horizon, just to save her soul.


She filed many fraud reports, was a whistleblower, etc. Got no support from any quarter. The things she told me would curl your hair. Worse than what Tim was talking about.

She told me the economy was going to tank several years ago, based on her inside knowledge. She was just a month too late to sell her house and get out of the country. She has now sent her son to live with his father in  Australia, because she knows what's going on in Washington and where the country is going. It's very, very bad.

So you guys can sit around bullshitting about whether or not integral people should vote for Obama, but that's ridiculous. He is our one and only shot. You're sitting around debating the color of the walls when the house is burning down.

Liz

  timelody : Integral Artis Dramatis Musica

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

timelody said Sep 30, 2008, 10:08 AM:

 

I have a friend who has been in the mortgage business for many years, and has gotten out. I used to think the picture she was painting was unnecessarily grim. But she was and is right. We're not talking about something that can be fixed with money. We're talking about the entire industry being unredeemably dirty to the core. This is a woman who has been both inside the beltway and inside the morgage business, and she had to quit her job with nothing else on the horizon, just to save her soul.


She filed many fraud reports, was a whistleblower, etc. Got no support from any quarter. The things she told me would curl your hair. Worse than what Tim was talking about.

She told me the economy was going to tank several years ago, based on her inside knowledge. She was just a month too late to sell her house and get out of the country. She has now sent her son to live with his father in  Australia, because she knows what's going on in Washington and where the country is going. It's very, very bad.



Right, Liz. See, what's interesting is why I was in that mortgage meeting in the first place. My brother worked in the industry for many years until he, like your friend, could stand it no longer either. He wanted to get out. His wife, at the time, said no way, we'll be poor, we need the money, etc. (Of course, a noble cause.) So he decided to begin changing the rules of the game himself. He managed to gather up a handful of other people who could stand the crookedness no longer either and went into business for himself. He also wrote a book called “What Lenders Don't Want You to Know” and began giving workshops - both the book and the workshops revealing all the tricks as well as all the sales tactics used (and they are vast) to get anyone and their brother to think “this is a good deal!”
So this is why I was at this meeting, we were going to open a branch her in Vegas (which didn't work out). When this dude said this, I blew the whistle on him. (“I was just trying to help” he said.)

The point here being, I think, that you cannot have a healthy financial sector (LR) without a adequately healthy and properly moral-ethical financial culture (LL). This, of course, then comes to the state of the individual UL. i was fortunate in this little stint to see both sides of the possibility. One the one hand, a group of people who would literally rther risk their jobs and careers, etc. to be able to sleep at night. On the other, those who could care less.
  adastra : Curious Mutant

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

adastra said Sep 30, 2008, 3:55 PM:

 

timelody: The point here being, I think, that you cannot have a healthy financial sector (LR) without a adequately healthy and properly moral-ethical financial culture (LL). This, of course, then comes to the state of the individual UL. i was fortunate in this little stint to see both sides of the possibility. One the one hand, a group of people who would literally rther risk their jobs and careers, etc. to be able to sleep at night. On the other, those who could care less.

~

Seems to me that's what's needed is a healthy system of laws/regulations/institutions - LR - operating on a high enough center of gravity to deal with the level of complexity of the challenges facing us (globalized markets, environmental problems, etc. etc.).  At this point that probably means second tier.  The LR system would have to impose rules on players.  Otherwise, players with a low moral center of gravity will just game the system to their own benefit.

I don't think we have that, and I think one particular economic game may very well be coming to an unpleasant end.  We'll see. 

All this talk of games - it put me in mind of Finite and Infinite Games by James P. Carse.  When finite games get tough, remembering the infinite game might help keep things in proper perspective…

spiral out,
Arthur

  timelody : Integral Artis Dramatis Musica

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

timelody said Sep 30, 2008, 5:45 PM:

 

Seems to me that's what's needed is a healthy system of laws/regulations/institutions - LR - operating on a high enough center of gravity to deal with the level of complexity of the challenges facing us (globalized markets, environmental problems, etc. etc.).  At this point that probably means second tier.  The LR system would have to impose rules on players.  Otherwise, players with a low moral center of gravity will just game the system to their own benefit.

Right. But LR economic systems -particularly financial and crediting sectors - do not run or operate, or play, themselves. People - minds, wills, consciousnesses, intentions, both individual and collective -operate such a system. Again I am no expert, but from what I do know, the finite and infinite come into play on this fact; no matter how many laws, regulations or measures of transparency have been put in place,  adequate understanding and conscience must play a part, for there will always be a new ways to … play that system, beat that system, eventually get into where we are now. That's my take anyway.

This is where I do think second tier will have to provide the answer, or at least the example, and the new rules of the game - both with a systems and a 4Q view of things.

After all, overly complex, opaque and questionable financial products cannot do a thing to harm anyone. People selling them and banking the economy of the entire world on them can.

  jeepdog : Warrior Poet

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

jeepdog said Sep 30, 2008, 12:38 PM:

 

So you guys can sit around bullshitting about whether or not integral people should vote for Obama, but that's ridiculous. He is our one and only shot. You're sitting around debating the color of the walls when the house is burning down.

If “bullshit” is all that any of this amounts, especially in the eyes of an “integral” moderator, then it is a complete waste of time indeed.

What, exactly, is “wrong” with looking at the entire picture and considering all facts?There was no “debate,” at least from my perspective and/or motive.  If you perceive a “debate,” then just what agenda are you trying to push?

ilicet.

  Liz : deLizious

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

Liz said Sep 30, 2008, 4:19 PM:

 

Jeepdog, You seem to have taken personally what I meant as a general comment.

I've had plenty of people tell me that I'm not entitled to my opinion because I'm a moderator. That is not the case, FYI.  But just to be clear: my stating my opinion is in no way telling you (or anyone) that you can't have yours or state it here. You can discuss whatever you like (within the rules, of course, which you always have done) as long as people want to discuss it with you. I apologize if it sounded like I was trying to silence you.

Liz

  Daniel : Hawkeye

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

Daniel said Sep 30, 2008, 5:34 PM:

 

Another pertinent article

US 'casino' mentality blamed for planet's meltdown

By ALAN CLENDENNING, AP Business Writer Tue Sep 30, 5:19 PM
ET

Astounded by the U.S. government's failure to resolve the financial crisis threatening the foundations of the global free market, fingers of blame are pointing at America from around the planet.

Latin American leaders say the U.S. must quickly fix the financial crisis it created before the rest of the world's hard-won economic gains are lost.

“The managers of big business took huge risks out of greed,” said President Oscar Arias of Costa Rica, whose economy is highly dependent on U.S. trade. “What happens in the United States will affect the entire world and, above all, small countries like ours.”

In Europe, where some blame a phenomenon of “casino capitalism” that has become deeply engrained from New York to London to Moscow, there is more of a sense of shared responsibility. But Europeans also blame the U.S. government for letting things get out of hand.

Amid harsh criticism is a growing consensus that stricter financial regulation is needed to prevent unfettered capitalism from destroying economies around the globe.

And leaders of developing nations that kept spending tight and opened their economies in response to American demands are warning of other consequences - a loss of U.S. influence globally and the likelihood that the world's poor will suffer the most from greed by the biggest players in global finance.

“They spent the last three decades saying we needed to do our chores. They didn't,” a grim-faced Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva said Tuesday.

Even staunch U.S. allies like Colombian President Alvaro Uribe blasted the world's most powerful country for egging on uncontrolled financial speculation that he compared to a wild horse with no reins.

“The whole world has financed the United States, and I believe that they have a reciprocal debt with the planet,” he said.

It's harder for European leaders to point the finger directly at the United States since many of their financiers participated in the recklessness. London was home to the division of failed insurer AIG that racked up huge losses on credit-default swaps, and many reputable European banks disregarded risk to load up on higher yielding subprime assets.

But the House's rejection Monday of the U.S. bank bailout proposed by Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson provoked a sharper tone and warnings that America must act. Though global markets on Tuesday recovered some of the ground they lost in a worldwide slide the day before, politicians from Europe to South America insisted the risk of a further plunge remains high.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel called on U.S. lawmakers to pass a package this week, saying it was the “precondition for creating new confidence on the markets - and that is of incredibly great significance.”

In an unusually blunt statement from the 27-country European Union, EU Commission spokesman Johannes Laitenberger said: “The United States must take its responsibility in this situation, must show statesmanship for the sake of their own country, and for the sake of the world.”

The crisis also has strengthened voices in France and Germany calling for EU regulations to eliminate highly deregulated financial markets, despite objections from Britain, which along with the U.S. is considered by some to practice a freer form of “Anglo-Saxon” capitalism.

“This crisis underlines the excesses and uncertainties of a casino capitalism that has only one logic - lining your pockets,” said German lawmaker Martin Schulz, chairman of the Socialists in the EU assembly. “It also shows the bankruptcy of 'law of the jungle' capitalism that no longer invests in companies and job creation, but instead makes money out of money in a totally uncontrolled way.”

The U.S. government's failure to apply rules that might have prevented the crisis is seen as a betrayal in many developing countries that faced intense U.S. pressures to liberalize their economies. In some developing nations, state enterprises were privatized, currencies were allowed to float against the U.S. dollar and painful measures were taken to bring down debts.

These advances are at risk now that credit is drying up. Countries with commodities-based economies are particularly vulnerable since more industrialized nations could reduce their demand for everything from soy to iron ore.

“It doesn't seem fair to me that those of us who endured so much hunger in the 20th century, who began to improve in the 21st century, should have to suffer due to the international financial system,” Silva said. “There are going to be a lot of people going hungry in the world.”

Just before meeting with Silva on Tuesday, Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez said he believes a new economic order is in store for the planet.

“What's to blame? Imperialism, the United States, the irresponsibility of the United States government,” said the self-avowed socialist and frequent U.S. critic. “From this crisis, a new world has to emerge, and it's a multi-polar world.”

China's influence in the outcome of all this could be profound because it is a huge investor in U.S. debt. It is already calling for strict new international regulatory systems to apply to globalized financial markets.

Liu Mingkang, chairman of the Chinese Banking Regulatory Commission, said Saturday before a weeklong bank holiday in China that debt in the United States and elsewhere has risen to dangerous and indefensible levels.

The rest of the world is taking notice. Many newspapers made references Tuesday to China's increasing importance in global finance. In Algeria, a large cartoon on the front page of the newspaper El-Watan showed Uncle Sam at prayer: “Save us!” he says, kneeling before a portrait of China's Mao Zedong.

In London, Jane Ayerson, a 20-year-old Irish exchange student, said Europeans share the blame.

“The problem started with America, but banks here have been greedy, too,” she said.

  Daniel : Hawkeye

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

Daniel said Sep 30, 2008, 5:39 PM:

 

This NPR broadcast was posted April 29th earlier this year.

It explains how our economy is treated and run like a gambling casino

Recommended

http://drs1958.gaia.com/blog/2008/4/our_confusing_economy_explained_
the_dark_shadow_economy



Dan

  Juliee : heart flow

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

Juliee said Oct 1, 2008, 1:44 AM:

 

Here's a letter that appeared in yesterday's The Independent in the UK.

The party's over: now the hangover

I have no great sympathy for the modern generation of financial alchemists in the City, but perhaps we should remember that when the good times were rolling we all had our snouts in the trough. It was their three-card tricks that doubled or tripled the price of our houses and kept our pension funds from going into the red, and generated lots of employment.

When we listen to politicians talking about taxpayers as if they were a separate group of people, we should remember that taxpayers, consumers, shareholders, pensioners and producers are more or less the same people, wearing different hats. As taxpayers, having profited from the good times as consumers we should not complain now if we have to pay up to sort out the mess. There is always a mess at the end of a party and we have had quite a party.

There will be, of course, people who got to the party too late and have suffered. They need to be identified and helped, but many of us are sitting on capital gains on our property and windfall shares in building societies which have enabled us to live in a style to which we were never accustomed. It doesn't seem unreasonable, now, to ask us to pay back at least some of the windfall.

A J Caston

Tervuren, BELGIUM

It struck a chord with me and made me sit back and look at my own anger with the greedy b*****ds in the city and reflect on my own greed and the part I've played in this.

Juliee

  timelody : Integral Artis Dramatis Musica

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

timelody said Oct 1, 2008, 8:43 AM:

 

This was sinking in for me last night too. There is certainly no “one” cause or single person or group to blame in the end, the factors and circumstances are far too complex. As I understand it, we are still not even sure what caused the Great Depression of the 1930s.

I did read one very cool thing yesterday, which I cannot find now. But, in time of financial crisis large-scale public projects have always provided a boost. In the 1800s it was the building of railroads, in the 30s (here) various New Deal projects, eventually the war, in the 1950s, building highways.

In the 21st Century, the new and necessary large scale public projects will be large-scale green projects, (and if we have any sense, we should start ASAP).

Obviously, this would be a great thing …

  Daniel : Hawkeye

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

Daniel said Oct 1, 2008, 9:49 AM:

 

Of what? And where?

Dan

  dugaum : Servant of the Design

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

dugaum said Oct 2, 2008, 5:50 AM:

 

I don't know if the time has arrived yet, but I would love to see more of the Aerospace/Defense industry do as Bucky Fuller suggested decades ago…

Turn from 'Killingry' to 'Livingry'.

I don't mind a healthy collective immune system protecting us from attack, But…

I do mind the constant 'manufacture' of New and Improved Enemies.

Hummm….

Seems like with effective leadership (Vision) we could muster the political will to spend all that rambunctious human energy on solutions to these silly energy problems and geopolitical games.

Tim,
Your suggestion has my support. Can we make it go viral?

And if there are obstacles…That's what 'Tiggers' are for, yes?

  timelody : Integral Artis Dramatis Musica

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

timelody said Oct 2, 2008, 1:03 PM:

 

I got that idea -which also just makes sense - from an open letter from something like “the working family party” this week re: the “bailout.” I don't have any specifics on the idea right now but it's not hardto start thinking of them. (Ex: converting every American public school to, say, solar power.)

Here is my prediction - I'm also basing this on something but it is mostly intuition:

In part because of the bailout/rescue, the economy will get better for a period of time, even to the point where it seems nothing can happen to stop it. Then, at some point, (and I am talking years but not a lot of years) there will be a collapse like never before in history, and no saving it. Because of this, great and historical-to-the-tune-of-evolutionary change will begin to occur. This wll be becasue a.) there is no other choice b.) enough people will demand it and c.) becasue it is the right thing to do, there wont be any going back. This will all be coupled with climate factors as well (such as natural disasters which will not only scare enough people, and prompt/force enough people, but because the cost of these disasters will be a major straining force on the economy, see?). Then, there will be a new “rebuilding” and everything will be different and that's where you'll get you major types of green projects that will change the world and how we (and our children, etc.) live in it.

Perhaps I'm wrong about all of this. But it does at least kind of make sense.

I have a recommendation: take this time as a “warning” or a sign or caution. When the economy begins an upswing again, do not take it for granted. I'm not of the mind of building bomb shelters (anymore ;-) but use it as an opportunity to prepare for potentially hard times ahead. (e.g. a Depression, other unexpected/not-so-unexpected things) If they never come, we'll certainly be none the worse. If none of this is true - that is, if there is no temporary economic recovery - well then …

I have no ready answers … .



What does anyone else think?

  timelody : Integral Artis Dramatis Musica

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

timelody said Oct 3, 2008, 9:32 AM:

 

Did I scare anyone? I thought that would be a provocative post - at least eliciting responses of “oh, stop with the green doomsday scenarios …” or “you're wrong.”

Family visiting this weekend!

  Liz : deLizious

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

Liz said Oct 3, 2008, 9:54 AM:

 

I missed that post, Tim. I'll read it now and blast your stupidity when I get around to it, ok?

Liz

  Liz : deLizious

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

Liz said Oct 3, 2008, 10:03 AM:

 

Oh, I think we're in for the depression now. I don't think it will take more than a few years for that to begin.

I think the question is timing, like when the ecosphere starts to really get unpredictable versus when the economy tanks. These factors will contribute to exactly when the following renaissance begins.

Another fun fact: no sun spots for awhile. Nobody knows why this is happening, and in previous episodes, gloal cooling has happened. Maybe the lack of sunspots will save us, or maybe the climate will just be really unpredictable. Nobody knows.

But it doesn't matter. It's all going to collapse in some way. There can't be unlimited growth, either in the economy or in nature.

Liz

  Tely : Truth Seeker

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

Tely said Oct 3, 2008, 10:14 AM:

 

Liz, what are sun spots,and what's the implication of not having them?

  Liz : deLizious

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

Liz said Oct 3, 2008, 10:25 AM:

 

It's hard to find balanced information, as the Right has seized upon this as a reason we don't need to worry about CO2, or anything else, for that matter. (Except “security” and terrorists, of course).

Here's a link to one that I found that seems fairly straightforward. But I want to see graphs, and I'm still looking for those. The article isn't clear about how long it would take for this to start. It seems like it could be a long way off (2040), and far too late to prevent the coming chaos from the warming that's already happening now.

Liz

  Tely : Truth Seeker

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

Tely said Oct 3, 2008, 6:15 PM:

 

Interesting!  I think this is proof of the existence of the old guy with a beard on a throne in the sky.  He's looking out for us and trying to save us from global warming – because we deserve it and are entitled to that, of course.  Shhh – don't anybody tell Sarah Palin.

  adastra : Curious Mutant

Re: A Shattering Moment in America's Fall From Power

adastra said Oct 3, 2008, 6:33 PM:

 

Tim, stop with the “family visiting” doomsday scenarios!  :P

r.thor