Pandits, Gurus, and Psychographs

I've just been listening to the I-I video piece Pandits, Gurus, and Psychographs from the August 2006 ILP Q&A series.  Ken made some great points in response to the audience member's question about how important it is to find a spiritual teacher.  Most important was his point about all teachers having fundamental flaws in some area of their being, but - if they are truly good teachers - they are expert in a particular area, and that is where we can expect to benefit from interacting with them; they can “catch us in our games,” identifying our blind spots which we can then deal with.  His point about how intimate relationships can play a similar role was also spot-on and matches my own experience.  I do feel it is very important to have some way of bringing up shadow material which it is so easy to stay blind to or to justify, explain away, etc.  For me effective techniques have included: intimate relationship, integral sangha, integral therapy with Robert Augustus Masters, and participation in Ayahuasca ceremonies.

I also liked what he said about written texts: “Written texts are a condensation and a crystalization of a spiritual realization into written word, and so there's transmission in the written word.”  I find in my work with Robert that his written material is an excellent compliment to doing therapy and workshops with him, and I obviously people could get great benefit from working  with his texts alone.

One aspect of the question that Ken didn't really address, unfortunately, was  whether you can have  a viable teacher-student relationship with someone who lives far away from me; it seems to me that this could work, if you had periodic contact with the teacher (e.g. going to workshops or whatever) and would be especially effective if they had written materials that you could study while you were apart from your teacher.  What do others think of this?

arthur

Re: Pandits, Gurus, and Psychographs

Great question Arthur,

I have learned aboutt his issue the hard way…

I think you can have great connections with teachers who are not always physically present.  In my experience, its good to have some contact…ie annual or semi-annual retreats, an  occasional daylong workshop, etc. as well as regular individual and group practice in the teacher's lineage, regular reading and reflection, dana (offerings), and service.  This approach keeps the relationship healthy and still allows it to evolve over time.  It works best for teachers who are part of an organization – allowing for community practice or connection groups; online connection, etc.  

There are some great books on student-teacher relationships.  I will look up theopnes I have read and post them when I get a few minutes.

Re: Pandits, Gurus, and Psychographs

Thanks, Nancy - it would be great if you could post something about those books at some point. 

Do you think it's easier to maintain a student-teacher relationship now with the internet and other modern technology?  Connections are so much easier to make or maintain.  I know that I benefit from having a sort of “distributed integral sangha” I stay loosly in touch with through email, PM's, phone and f2f visits - but of course that's a peer-to-peer type of relationship.

However, it is also true that Ken Wilber feels much more like a teacher to me due to all the audio and video content available to me - including all the “Q and A” type stuff - than he would if I only had access to him through his books.

spiral out,
arthur

Re: Pandits, Gurus, and Psychographs

With all due respect to KW, I’m not terribly impressed by the sweeping, authoritative sounding, believe-me-I-know-what-I’m-talking-about statements he can come out with, such as all teachers having fundamental flaws in some area of their being. I think of the Dalai Lama, for example, he’s a teacher, I’ve received teachings from him, and although I don’t know him I’m not aware of any fundamental flaws he has and don’t read commentators or gossip columnists discussing any such flaws. Even that charming mud-slinger Philistine Falk in his Stripping the Gurus can’t come up with anything of any consequence to say against him. And somehow I don’t think the D L is unique in this regard.

That aside, regarding the question “..whether you can have a viable teacher-student relationship with someone who lives far away..”, I think one can, but that it depends on what is being studied or practised, also on the capacity of the student and the capacity, level of realisation, siddhis etc. of the teacher. For example some students report having contact with or from their teacher in dreams.

As regards my experience with my own teacher, who does live far away, I think it works well enough. I might fantasise that if I had regular ongoing contact with him I could progress further faster, but I think I would discover this to be a myth. He has presented numerous injunctions that are down to me to test in practice, and with regard to specific practices the ‘signs of experience’ are well documented. If I have any doubts or questions I can email him and receive a reply that penetrates to the heart of the matter within a couple of days. Not that I’m emailing him all the time, as unfortunately for me diligence-in-practice isn’t something I can download off the internet (rueful smile emoticon). These days he is teaching and giving transmission via live video (and audio) webcasts, principally because so many of his students around the world can’t travel to attend the teaching retreats.

Over the years he has given the transmission of and instructions on many many practices, but the common denominator, the indispensable heart of all of them, is the unifying of ones own primordial state with that of all ones teachers, and practising continuing in that knowledge as much as possible. To my mind this is viable relationship.

Lol

Re: Pandits, Gurus, and Psychographs

“With all due respect to KW, I’m not terribly impressed by the sweeping, authoritative sounding, believe-me-I-know-what-I’m-talking-about statements he can come out with, such as all teachers having fundamental flaws in some area of their being.”

Hee…maybe the authoritative arrogance that you're seeing in Ken is his fundamental flaw… :p  (Indeed, I have read somewhere that Ken says arrogance is his shadow side - as if that's not obvious - and Robert Augustus Masters certainly has an arrogant side, although he's consciously aware of it; and that conscious acknowledgement makes it a lot less problematic IMO.)

My feeling is that what Ken is essentially saying is that all spiritual teachers are human - they are, as he's said elsewhere, “human plus”, not “human minus” - and to take it as a fundamental given that all teachers are going to have flaws or less developed areas sort of “keeps you on your toes” and may help prevent some of the problems that may arise from believing that you've found a teacher that is perfect in every way, and all their advice in every area is infallible.

“I think of the Dalai Lama, for example, he’s a teacher, I’ve received teachings from him, and although I don’t know him I’m not aware of any fundamental flaws he has and don’t read commentators or gossip columnists discussing any such flaws. Even that charming mud-slinger Philistine Falk in his Stripping the Gurus can’t come up with anything of any consequence to say against him. And somehow I don’t think the D L is unique in this regard.”

This got me curious, so I did a bit of googling around - and it is easy enough to find criticism of the Dalai Lama.  Any of the criticism can be refuted and argued about, but the point is that there could well be valid criticisms of the Dalai Lama, but even valid criticisms don't mean that he's not spiritually realized, not a great teacher, not a powerful force for good in the world - only that he is not perfect in every way.  He can have limitations as well.  For criticisms of the Dalai Lama see Dalai Lama: criticism in the Wikipedia article on him or His Material Highness, an article in Salon magazine.  Again, I don't want to get into a debate about the possible flaws of the Dalai Lama, only to illustrate the possibility that, in addition to his great worth and accomplishment as a spiritual teacher, there may also be valid criticisms of the Dalai Lama as a human being.

One of the benefits for me of the integral framework is that I was able to escape from black-and-white thinking: either so-and-so is a great teacher or they are fucked up in this or that way and therefore are a fraud.  Both can be true.  :)

Lol, have you watched the whole video that started this conversation?  I'm just wondering if maybe what I discussed and quoted in my first post may have inadvertently given a distorted or incomplete view of what Ken was saying there. 

Thanks for your sharing on your own teacher, that's fascinating.  If you like, feel free to talk some more about your teacher and post links etc. - maybe on the “Inspirations and Influences” board.  I'd be very interested to hear more about that.

spiral out,
arthur

Re: Pandits, Gurus, and Psychographs

Hi Arthur

I did manage to watch the video clip once through, but wasn't able to a second time, something to do with my (old) laptop processor being overloaded by the stream input.

What I perceive as Ken's sweeping etc. statements that could be interpreted as authoritative arrogance (tongue firmly in cheek here) produces in me a kind of wariness/distrust — because I have the sense that some people hang on his every word and maybe are open to being led along. So I want him to not use the hyperbole etc. Yet it is clear that I am projecting on to him a kind of super hero status that demands of him to have some kind of high altitude integrity, which in turn serves to reveal my own lack of integrity, held in the shadow.

The  Dalai Lama certainly has his critics, no question, and has also openly admitted making mistakes. And …. he also strongly advocates Western students of Tibetan Buddhism to first really check out the teachers that they may be considering taking on as a guru (if they haven't already gone overboard, that is!), reminding them of the counsel contained in a classic text called “The 50 Verses of Guru Devotion”, that they should not  take their guru's word/instruction as infallible and needing to be adhered to if it conflicts with their own values, but to politely say: I'm sorry, I just can't do that guv.

There is a validity within the perspective of Tibetan Buddhism for viewing ones teacher as an enlightened being, but this needs to be seen in context. As my teacher says, this is not for the teacher's benefit but for ones own realisation. He quotes Padmasambhava as saying: See your teacher as a Buddha, get the realisation of a Buddha; see your teacher as a dog, get the realisation of  a dog.

Anyway I take your point  about the D L. Interesting reading you provided – his  flaws may be more fundamental than I realised!! But Christopher Hitchins? god, I've heard him waxing lyrical on the radio in this country. Better not say any more about him (the fascist bigot) : p

I'll check the  “Inspirations and Influences” board out. Thanks for your input.

Lol

Re: Pandits, Gurus, and Psychographs

My teacher is almost exclusively internet based, though there are retreats every few months.  No doubt, based on my experience and discussions with other students, being physically present is most powerful.  At retreats, when someone asks a question, that tends to be the most powerful part for that particular person (though not always recognized in the moment).  According to my teacher, it is also of tremendous benefit to be at a retreat with other students who are open to the teaching.  The atmosphere in such a setting helps with the transmission.

But as I mentioned, these retreats are not the primary outlet for the teaching.  There are online lessons that students read and then ask questions by email, there are 3/week online satsang sessions with the teacher using the Paltalk software including video (also some advanced students lead maybe another 2 or 3 sessions per week), retreats are also broadcast on Paltalk, and local groups sometimes form “sattelite” retreat sites, there are one-on-one telephone sessions with the teacher, and there is a private yahoogroup for students to share experiences.   Though physically being in the presence of the teacher seems to be most powerful, my internet interactions most often produce a noticable state-change.  After studying with the teacher this way for nearly two years, and also having read his book (which he actually doesn't recommend that much…his earlier students prompted him to write it, but it was probably a bit premature to do so….he is much more highly realized than he was when he wrote it nearly 4 years ago), now when I log onto Paltalk or when I get on the phone with him (internet phone, of course;-)), I instantly feel a “buzz” and often find myself unable to explain the nature of my experience (the teacher calls it a “non-experience experience” that indicates some dissolution of I-thought/core egoity). 

So, I wholeheartedly endorse long distance teaching via internet or other means (multimedia seems to be most effective, and internet seems to be best suited for that).  If you are fortunate enought to have face-to-face contact, then that is a definite bonus, but not necessary. In fact, when my teacher first started online a couple years ago, the intention was based on the idea that people do not need to leave their families or jobs or homes and go somewhere else to “get enlightened” (that's a silly statement, but you have to call it something).  Enlightenment is everywhere.  So why does on need to go somewhere else to look for it.

Oh yeah, I just signed up for Verizon FiOS internet.  15Mbps download/2Mbps upload speeds in two weeks!  Sweet!

Keith

Re: Pandits, Gurus, and Psychographs

Hi Keith

This is fascinating stuff - thanks for sharing.  Would you like to talk more about your teacher or lineage, possibly start a thread on the “Inspirations and Influences” board?  I'd love to hear more, and see links to some web-based resources, if you'd like to share.  I'll be starting a thread on Robert Augustus Masters there in due course, I just haven't gotten around to it yet.

spirals,
arthur

Re: Pandits, Gurus, and Psychographs

Hi Arthur.

I was really glad to be able to share in such detail my experience with that specific question.  Check the Brian Nager thread I just started if you want more info related to that specific teacher.

If anybody is interested, I can share my experience with internet student-teacher relationships.  There's really a lot to say, so I have no idea where to start.  I'm more than happy to share my experiences, so I'll keep checking this thread to see what develops.

Keith