What is Altitude?

A Brief Explanation of Altitude

The concept of Altitude is a radically new approach to development created by Ken Wilber and presented in his newest book, Integral Spirituality. In Holons, we use Altitude as a measure of development in both culture and consciousness. A simple way to explain it is to say that Altitude indicates the degree of developmental unfolding of items such as complexity, consciousness, and the number of perspectives one can take. For example, in consciousness development as indicated below, one goes from the capacity to take only a 1^st-person perspective, to also being able to take a 2^nd-person perspective, to also being able to take a 3^rd-person perspective, and so on. Thus, in this example, you can see that the capacity for love increases (from being able to love only me, to being able to love us, to being able to love all of us, to being able to love all sentient beings….). For convenience, Altitude follows the natural colors of the rainbow, so you'll often hear us refer to degree of development or degree of consciousness or degree of capacity to love, etc. by a particular color of the rainbow (as you will see below).

The occasions in Culture by Altitude are placed on the rainbow in terms of the degree of complexity that they have. In order to communicate effectively, you have to be able to hit the same degree of complexity as the person or persons you’re speaking to. To not make an attempt to adjust your speech to another sentient being is mean, a form of subtle aggression. By learning to spot degree of complexity, you can more effectively communicate and enhance mutual understanding.

We have selected three well-known examples of psychological models to show how easily Altitude can be used to measure them: Abraham Maslow's “Needs,” Jean Gebser's “Worldviews,” and Clare Graves' “Value Systems.” To show the usefulness of Altitude of consciousness, if we say at a given time a person is acting ”amber,” it means that generally their needs are for belongingness, their worldview is mythic, and their value system is absolutistic. Various cultural events can also be measured by their degree of development or their Altitude—and their movement from one to another as they unfold can also be followed: from archaic (infrared) to tribal (magenta/red) to traditional (amber) to modern (orange) to postmodern (green) to integral (turquoise) to even higher structures that are now evolving, and which we lump together and refer to as indigo. We estimate the Center of Gravity (COG) of a cultural happening (such as a book, movie, etc.) and place it on the Culture By Altitude chart. As always, these colors follow the rainbow and are identical wherever they appear.

Altitude colors measure essentially similar degrees of development wherever you see the same color (e.g. red is always some version of egocentric, self-protective, magical-power—and you know this will be essentially the same whether you're measuring culture or consciousness or capacity for love or capacity for ethics). We often speak of Center of Gravity, for the central part of the action system, whether individual or collective, and the colors are primarily assigned to COG.

(Another revolutionary concept presented in Integral Spirituality is the difference between structures of consciousness and states of consciousness. Altitude applies primarily to structures of consciousness, and those structures generally emerge through a developmental sequence of stages or waves, starting at infrared and unfolding through a rainbow of possibility from there. Many states, however, are available to everyone no matter the Altitude of their COG. States include the three natural states of waking, dreaming, and deep sleep, as well as altered states, peak experiences, intoxicated states, and the entire spectrum of spiritual states, from gross states of oneness with nature, to subtle grace and illumination, to causal formless absorption, to pure witnessing and nondual union with all that is arising. Because most states are ever-present, individuals can have authentic spiritual experiences at any stage or Altitude of development. States and stages, however, are deeply interrelated: research has shown that continued development through stages can help convert passing states into permanent traits, which is one of the more exciting findings of an Integral Approach….)

Some representative instances of the major colors:

Infrared (archaic—a proto 1st-person perspective): infrared Altitude signifies a degree of development that is in many ways imbedded in nature, body, and the gross realm in general. Infrared Altitude exhibits an archaic worldview, physiological needs (food, water, shelter, etc.), a self-sense that is minimally differentiated from its environment, and is in nearly all ways oriented towards physical survival. Although present in infants, infrared is rarely seen in adults except in cases of famine, natural disasters, or other catastrophic events. infrared is also used as a kind of catch-all term for all earlier evolutionary stages and drives.

Magenta (egocentric—able to take a 1st-person perspective): Magenta Altitude tends to be the home of egocentric drives, a magical worldview, and impulsiveness. It is expressed through magic/animism, kin-spirits, and such. Young children primarily operate with a magenta worldview. Magenta in any line of development is fundamental, or “square one” for any and all new tasks. Magenta emotions and cognition can be seen driving cultural phenomena such as Burning Man, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, or superhero-themed comic books or movies.

Red (ego-to-ethnocentric—able to take a 1st- to 2nd-person perspective): Red Altitude is the marker of egocentric drives based on power, where “might makes right,” where aggression rules, and where there is a limited capacity to take the role of an “other.” Red impulses are classically seen in grade school and early high school, where bullying, teasing, and the like are the norm. Red motivations can be seen culturally in Ultimate Fighting contests, which have no fixed rules (fixed rules come into being at the next Altitude, amber), teenage rebellion and the movies that cater to it (The Fast and the Furious), gang dynamics (where the stronger rule the weaker), and the like.

Amber (ethnocentric—able to take a 2nd-person perspective): Amber Altitude indicates a worldview that is mythic, and mythic worldviews are always held as absolute (this stage of development is often called absolutistic). Instead of “might makes right,” amber ethics are more oriented to the group, but one that extends only to “my” group. Grade school and high school kids usually exhibit amber motivations to “fit in.” Amber ethics help to control the impulsiveness and narcissism of red. Culturally, amber worldviews can be seen in fundamentalism (my God is right no matter what); extreme patriotism (my country is right no matter what); and ethnocentrism (my people are right no matter what).

Orange (worldcentric—able to take a 3rd-person perspective): In an orange worldview, the individual begins to move away from the amber conformity that reifies the views of one's religion, nation, or tribe. The orange worldview often begins to emerge in late high school, college, or adulthood. Culturally, the orange worldview realizes that “truth is not delivered; it is discovered,” spurring the great advances of science and formal rationality. Orange ethics begin to embrace all people, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal….” Ayn Rand's Objectivism, the US Bill of Rights, and many of the laws written to protect individual freedom all flow from an orange worldview.

Green (worldcentric—able to take a 4th-person perspective): Green worldviews are marked by pluralism, or the ability to see that there are multiple ways of seeing reality. If orange sees universal truths (“All men are created equal”), green sees multiple universal truths—different ones for different cultures. Green ethics continue, and radically broaden, the movement to embrace all people. A green statement might read, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all people are created equal, regardless of race, gender, class….” Green ethics have given birth to the civil rights, feminist, and gay rights movements, as well as environmentalism.

The green worldview's multiple perspectives give it room for greater compassion, idealism, and involvement, in its healthy form. Such qualities are seen by organizations such as the Sierra Club, Amnesty International, Union of Concerned Scientists, and Doctors Without Borders. In its unhealthy form green worldviews can lead to extreme relativism, where all beliefs are seen as relative and equally true, which can in turn lead to the nihilism, narcissism, irony, and meaninglessness exhibited by many of today's intellectuals, academics, and trend-setters…. Not to mention another “lost” generation in students.

Teal (worldcentric to kosmocentric—able to take a 4th/5th-person perspective): Teal Altitude marks the beginning of an integral worldview, where pluralism and relativism are transcended and included into a more systematic whole. The teal worldview honors the insights of the green worldview, but places it into a larger context that allows for healthy hierarchies, and healthy value distinctions.

Perhaps most important, a teal worldview begins to see the process of development itself, acknowledging that each one of the previous stages (magenta through green) has an important role to play in the human experience. Teal consciousness sees that each of the previous stages reveals an important truth, and pulls them all together and integrates them without trying to change them to “be more like me,” and without resorting to cultural relativism (“all are equal”).

Teal worldviews do more than just see all points of view (that’s a green worldview)—it can see and honor them, but also critically evaluate them.

Turquoise (kosmocentric—able to take a 5th-person perspective): Turquoise is a mature integral view, one that sees not only healthy hierarchy but also the various quadrants of humans knowledge, expression, and inquiry (at the minimum: I, we, and it). While teal worldviews tend to be secular, turquoise is the first to begin to integrate Spirit as a living force in the world (manifested through any or all of the 3 Faces of God: “I”—the “No self” or “witness” of Buddhism; “we/thou”—the “great other” of Christianity, Judaism, Hindusm, Islam, etc.; or “it”—the “Web of Life” seen in Taoism, Pantheism, etc.).

Indigo (continues and deepens kosmocentric—able to take 6th-person perspective and higher): Evolution and development continues growing, and we have no reason to believe it will stop with the stage that we are at now. We have indicated all of these higher possibilities with the next color in the rainbow after turquoise, which is indigo.

For a more complete discussion of levels and lines of development, and the AQAL model in general, click here for a free PDF.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The preceeding document is from http://holons-news.com/altitudes.html.

Re: What is Altitude?

thank you really v/m adastra
great stuff - fluent and clear
and thanks to Ken of course
btw,
an indigo painting could show to the observant eye&heart other dimensioned color-scales to demonstrate, suggest  or even construct structure for/of the evolution of consciousness and for/of (understanding) relationship ;) - and with me, the none verbal is far prior, i mean;   anything new including structures are first presented with music and painting, in what people call abstract form and later the words machine catches up.

all the best
its morning here ;)
yy
 

Re: What is Altitude?

an indigo painting could show to the observant eye&heart other dimensioned color-scales to demonstrate, suggest  or even construct structure for/of the evolution of consciousness and for/of (understanding) relationship ;)

I think so, although surely someone would have to be able to perceive those levels, at least to some extent, to “get” what the indigo painting was “transmitting.”  Or maybe people who couldn't yet really grok those higher levels would sense something there, but not be able to really understand it…I suspect that would be my reaction to an “indigo painting.”

“…and you know something's happening, but you don't know what it is, do you, Mr. Jones?”

BTW there is a short blog entry in which Ken talks about the question, “What is integral art?”

arthur

Re: What is Altitude?

It could be that all perceive Indigo Consciousness Wave just like all see Indigo in the rainbow still we greatly defer.

What else I suggest is the evolution of consciousness within the realm of colors alone where the wording is reflection

and ultimately; that it can be the Rainbow leads conscious development

;)

and thanks for the link i'm now following 

yy

Re: What is Altitude?

Arthur, Thanks for emailing me a list of Wilber basics. No way was I going to read a whole book. This thread explains a lot of stuff to help me understand some of the terminology of I-I Zaadzians. I like the examples of worldviews presented almost as Mission Statements. That's very useful, although inevitably one-dimensional.

Does Wilber take into consideration the possibility that conservatives (amber) protect the good that is present and progressives ignore the good that is present? Conservatives might actually help progress by protecting “what works”. Then it gets paradoxical.

You wrote…

“The teal worldview honors the insights of the green worldview, but places it into a larger context that allows for healthy hierarchies, and healthy value distinctions.”

This clearly demonstrates the muddiness of KW. Is this about social hierarchies or political hierarchies or philosophical hierarchies (e.g. scientific classifications and this idea of altitudes)? Everyone involved in social hierarchies is going to immediately think theirs is a healthy one!!! People like Andrew Cohen have taken Wilber's hierarchy approval and run with it - they mention it in every discussion on the guru/disciple relationship.

You would have to present something quite deep to convince me that social hierarchies can be healthy. (Of course we need political hierarchies and things like police hierarchies at least at the moment.)

Martin Gifford.

Re: What is Altitude?

Does Wilber take into consideration the possibility that conservatives (amber) protect the good that is present and progressives ignore the good that is present?

I don't think its quite correct to equate conservatism with amber. In the most general sense, I would say that conservatives want to preserve the dominant social order, while “progressives” want to change the social order to something they believe is better. Under this definition, Amber “conservatives” in the US are actually radicals, since they want to alter the status quo. Amber activists have adopted many of the methods that were pioneered by Green activists in the past, and even the view of themselves as a David vs. an evil Goliath. And since both Amber and Green often operate from a nuturing, protective perspective, both sides will try to blame the other for the bad side of hyper-individualistic, status-seeking, materialistic Orange.

In any case, one of the basic characteristics of first tier consciousness is the inability to accept anything but one's own world view. This almost always means exaggerating the pros of one's preferred view, and the cons of everyone else's view, as well as minimizing the problems that your view creates. Its worth pointing out that, in a first-tier food fight, the parties are often more committed to winning than to addressing the problems that they claim to be trying to solve.

You would have to present something quite deep to convince me that social hierarchies can be healthy.

If by social hierarchies you mean Amber hierarchies, these are appropriate to address the problems of excessive Red. Look at Somalia or Iraq or Sudan – these are areas that could benefit from Amber, but it is generally inappropriate above Orange. One of the qualities of integral leadership, in the context of a business, is this:

“Managers act as go-fers, (not supervisors or overseers)… they may also empower, enable, facilitate and inspire when required to do so.”

- Spiral Dynamics, p. 128.

Re: What is Altitude?

OK, I am reinvestigating my [limited] understanding of altitude and SD, and I have some questions.

“While teal worldviews tend to be secular, turquoise is the first to begin to integrate Spirit as a living force in the world”

I have definitely begun to integrate Spirit, but I also resonate with the FlexFlow of Teal/Yellow in that I am still very much in a state of chaos at times, in terms of inquiry into worldviews, changing from identification with my self (mostly; especially when triggered into contraction) to identification with everything as a process. I know that these descriptors are really waves and that no one is clearly at one altitude or another, or that the station is dependent on the line of development (I think I'm getting the jargon right here), but can anyone elaborate on the distinction?

Also, why the switching of Teal from post-Turquoise (SD) to pre-Turquoise? Is it just prettier in the chart?  8)  When/where did the switch occur?

Re: What is Altitude?

Colin:
I have definitely begun to integrate Spirit, but I also resonate with the FlexFlow of Teal/Yellow in that I am still very much in a state of chaos at times, in terms of inquiry into worldviews, changing from identification with my self (mostly; especially when triggered into contraction) to identification with everything as a process.

Your situation is only confusing if we try to fit everything into the SD framework. If we are allowed to use several different lines of development (cognition, values, sense of self, etc), as well as the horizontal spiritual development, it all works out.

For example a person (anyone, not necessarily you) can be turquoise cognitively, teal value-wise and for sense of self, while they're just learning to enter causal in their state training practice. This information can not be transmitted only by stating what SD level a person is inhabiting.


Colin:
Also, why the switching of Teal from post-Turquoise (SD) to pre-Turquoise? Is it just prettier in the chart?  8)  When/where did the switch occur?

Ken wanted a new set of colors to distinguish the general waves of consciousness from the specific colors that SD uses for the values line. When he did this (around 6-12 months ago I would guess) he tried to mimic the colors of the rainbow while still retaining some similarity to the SD colors.


Pelle

Re: What is Altitude?

Thanks for sharing your insights, Pelle!

With gratitude,
Colin

Re: What is Altitude?

The natural rainbow thing goes back not only to most or all of the world's wisdom traditions, but also to Wilber's original thesis in The Spectrum of Consciousness. There is a very elegant passage in that book where he proposes consciousness has different varying frequencies just like the varying light frequencies in the rainbow, or radio waves, or electromagnetic waves - I would add sound, etc. This has been a pretty universal recognition among the world's mystics and traditions. (And there are some very nice comments from Ken here, in the latest ISC concall clip.) I was very happy to see the model return to these colors, or to a rainbow scale, becasue it is like something coming full circle-and original idea, finally being able to come to a certain fruition with the rest of the model that evolved after.

SD chose their colors for very different reasons. As I understand it, colors that express or embody the “tone” or “feeling” of the different vMEME levels. Thus, they do not follow the exact waves progression of the rainbow, though the rest of the model does follow a definite stage progression.

Re: What is Altitude?

Glad I found this one. I

s there somewhere that explores second tier in more depth? Specifically the problematic elements e.g. is there a yellow/teal equivalent to the mgm? I want to do some more exploring.

I much prefer the breadth of AQAL (Duh! I finally got it after reading Integral Spirituality) compared to SD (probably my own reflected narrowness!).

Juliee

Re: What is Altitude?

Hi Juliee

Is there somewhere that explores second tier in more depth? Specifically the problematic elements e.g. is there a yellow/teal equivalent to the mgm? I want to do some more exploring.

Yes, this, right here!  We're doing the exploring!  The Kosmic grooves are still being laid down!

:)  The spiral dynamics book has a very in-depth description of yellow, though some people are cautious about its accuracy; well worth a read though.  Also, its worth checking out Susanne Cook Greuter's descriptions of ego-development.  http://www.cook-greuter.com/ has some essays by her - particularly check out 9 levels of increasing embrace.


Ewan

Re: What is Altitude?

Hi Ewan

Need to go back and read 'that damn book'. I read it three (?) years ago and yellow was very woolly to me then - maybe I'll get it more this time round :-)))
I'll check out the website too. Thanks

Love and even more reading
Juliee

Re: What is Altitude?

I would really like to hear more about altitudes, parenting, love etc. Anyone? Does this need a new thread?

I posted this question in the wounding of boys thread and Tim also felt it was an important question. I've sat with it awhile, taking it no further, paddling in the 'gender threads'.

As I was holosync-ing this morning a format came to me.

I'm coming to a stronger and stronger understanding that there isn't just one altitude; we're all at different levels on different lines. Fine.
I have a good understanding of Spiral Dynamics - values by altitude and found Suzanne Cook-Greuter's (SCG) model even more illuminating, yelling 'Yes' to various descriptions 'I know that one'. 

I'm now reading about so many different lines and have seen them presented alongside each other in various models (Integral Psychology, Integral Spirituality) but what I don't have is a clear sense of what these 'technical' words mean on these tables. What they might mean for me and where I am. I also hear from the different voices on the pod that many of us have a specific interest and/or depth of knowledge in some of these lines.

Is there any interest in producing an over-arching 'document' which provides SCG type descriptions against the various levels on the different lines? My rationale for such an undertaking is to assist each of us in our own self-awareness on as many lines as possible.

There may of course be such a document already in existence somewhere, in which case - where is it please?

If we are interested in doing this perhaps we can use a format similar to the book club - i.e. a new board for the 'document' and a separate thread for each line.

wonderingly
Juliee

Re: What is Altitude?

Hi Juliee,

I will continue to think about this also, and the questions you've raised here. It's a good idea and important. The continual 'application of the map,' or these maps to real life and interaction is something which I feel like I learn something about everyday. I've even considered differing threads and so on. Spontaneously, just now, I think it's great that the gender identity line has come through, for example.

One that note, one very helpful thing is the AQAL line groupings that haven't really been published in any book yet, I don't think, but Ken has mentioned often on concalls. Just the simple mention of it has helped me tremendously as I am currently myself working to chart out the “dramatic” line of development -as in, i.e. talent for acting, theatre, movies, etc.

There are 3 Groups.

The Cognitive or Consciousness Lines of Streams
The Self-Related Lines or Streams
The Talent Streams (or 'gifts” etc.)

The Cognitive or Consciousness streams group is all things like Piaget, Sri Arobindo, Commons & Richards (who carried Piaget beyond formal operations, orange) and in some sense Susanne Cook-Greuter -especially in the increasing ability to take perspectives.

The Self-Related streams are all things like morals and values, Susanne Cook-Greuter in the sense of “meaning making” (I am inclined to think Lovinger and Cook-Greuter, in the sense of 'ego development' can be applied to both self-related and consciousness), gender identity, interpersonal and intrapersonal etc. Generally, the self-related aspects that can not be reduced to cognition or consciousness alone. (i.e. I'm at vision-logic but and still interpersonally immature. etc.)

The Talent Streams are basically all Howard Gardner's Multiple Intelligences: logical-mathematical, musical, visual-spatial, bodily-kinesthetic, linguistic, naturalist, etc.

I don't know how familiar you are with Gardner, but the talents work out to things like -

logical-mathematical -the scientist,
bodily-kinesthetic -the dancer or athlete,
musical -obviously the musician, composer
spatial -painter, sculptor, architect,
linguistic -poet, writer
naturalist -biologist

and so on.

Note: It seems like interpersonal and intrapersonal can show as talents also, such as in a skilled psychologist or philosopher.

Note: Daniel Goleman's Emotional Intelligence and Social Intelligence are basically expansions on Gardner's interpersonal and intrapersonal. Put together the two more or less chart all of the “zones” in the UL and UR (and to some extent the LL) where Gardner takes more of the objective view and Golemans the subjective or inter-subjective. So they are definitely great together!


Hope that helps some.

Usually Center of Gravity or general Altitude refers to a mix of cognitive and self-related.

Re: What is Altitude?

Great stuff Tim!
And thanks for asking just the right question Juliee.
I think it would be very useful to keep posting any information we have about the levels of an individual line.

Pelle

Re: What is Altitude?

Thanks Tim for the starting framework. As you say, my passion too is to put some real-life meat onto the theoretical bones.

I got a couple of Daniel Goleman books a few months ago but haven't got around to reading them yet, now joined by the Terrence Real books mentioned by Lauren and Stacy on the wounding of boys thread (and about to be ousted by the new Harry Potter book!).

Juliee

Re: What is Altitude?

Thanks guys.

As a first follow up, here are a couple of things I wanted to add to my above post.

First, it's useful to notice the “overlap” that many of the researchers do or have done. For example, mentioning Lovinger and Cook-Greuter there are some really precise lines of development of certain things going on, but they may draw in a few others lines in the process. Cook-Greuter/Lovinger for example, at one and the same time represent some specific and precise lines, but also maybe a “conglomeration” of several. (C-G for example mentions interpersonal skills a few times.) Piaget looked at morals but no where near as direct and precise as Kolberg or Gilligan, etc. All of this is to say that AQAL really is the most differentiated and precise model for all of this that we have -and of course, also inclusive.

That said, I want to follow up on Piaget here because I think he offers a really good example, if not one of the best.

The fundamental problems with Piaget are basically two things.  a.) He considered formal operations, or orange, the highest cognitive stage of development. A corollary to that is that while cross cultural studies have confirmed the universal accuracy of his stages and what they entail, they also revealed that most of the world does not even reach formal operations or orange. (A sobering fact that still frightens me every time I say it or write it.) But b.) in the end he took the logical-mathematical line as the chief line or one representative of all possible domains. Obviously, this was wrong.

But in one way he can be studied as one of the most precise and complete mappings of a single line unfolding through the waves (up to orange).  Even Gardner writes (from memory) “there does not exist a more complete system” in this regard.

However boring it might be to study the logical-mathematical line, I highly recommend this short book of Piaget's -

It is less than 200 pages but represents a complete summary. But even more than that, one of the most striking aspects for me was his crystal clear mapping of the -if I may say so-awe inspiring (and ultimately beautiful!) process of transcend and include. He precisely shows how one tiny thing leads to the next, eventually many things settle into a complete structural schema or system, then more things are added to eventually create an even broader system which subsumes the latter and so on- I highly recommend it on that account alone.

Re: What is Altitude?

Thanks, Tim. Great stuff. That book's now on my list.

“I don't know how familiar you are with Gardner, but the talents work out to things like -

logical-mathematical -the scientist,
bodily-kinesthetic -the dancer or athlete,
musical -obviously the musician, composer
spatial -painter, sculptor, architect,
linguistic -poet, writer
naturalist -biologist”

This looks like the makings for a really helpful typology, for use like the Enneagram. It's probably pretty common to be more than one, though. Does Gardner get into that?

 
“There are 3 Groups.

The Cognitive or Consciousness Lines of Streams
The Self-Related Lines or Streams
The Talent Streams (or 'gifts” etc.)”

This is really great too.

Re: What is Altitude?

This looks like the makings for a really helpful typology

Theoretically we have to be careful with that statement, so we don't confuse talent in certain lines with types. I know you know this David, but I thought it would be prudent to point it out anyhow.

Pelle

Re: What is Altitude?

That's a good point, Pelle. Yes, that could get confusing. It would seem, though, that there might be an interesting connection between talent lines and types.

By the way, I was just looking at the picture in the OP. It has “safety” as a level 3, egocentric. But I thought in the chakra system safety (survival) was at the first chakra. But there might be different kinds of “safety” at each level.

Re: What is Altitude?

Hi guys,

David - This looks like the makings for a really helpful typology …

Well, actually -and very excitingly -this is very much what Gardner has done. But Pelle is correct, ultimately it cannot be applied as “type” in the same way as the Enneagram or the AQAL designation/inclusion of types. Yet another reason -coming even clearer to me as I write on this thread -that the AQAL system remains the most inclusive but precisely differentiating (and so ultimately un-confusing) model of anything that we have.

What usually seems to happen, more often than not, is that an individual's talent -especially if it is extraordinarily marked -is what leads them -or takes a leading role in all other lines and waves of development. This would also be the most balanced approach or scenario, because it is also true, very often, that if someone is extremely talented in one line or intelligence, all of the others can get neglected. Thus, for example, you have an artist who is ultimately just a big asshole. (Being praised and honored for your talent culturally, and in some cases making a lot of money from it in the LR, also does not help.) Or the example of the Nazi doctor, or the crazed mathematician who's personal and interpersonal skills are just … not there or whatever.

The basis for MI in fact comes, in part, from cases of individuals such as idiot savants -individuals able to perform seemingly super-human mathematical or musical or visual-spatial feats (in a lot of cases), but clearly under-developed in some of the most basic areas of human life we all take for granted. But it also comes from such things as neuroscience and neuropsychiatry, brain imaging and brain mapping and all of this from the collective evidence on the effects of brain damage (as well as certain diseases or disorders). So, for example, if your brain is severely damaged in a certain area you will lose your ability to talk and/or write, but astonishingly maintain your ability to sing - or the reverse.   The two frontal lobes seem to be the “seat” of interpersonal and intrapersonal intelligence; one severely damaged results in complete loss of a sense of personal identity -personal motivations, drive, dreams, wishes -the other, loss of any meaningful recognition of others -including even family, friends, mother, father - all of this while every other testable capacity remains intact.

Gardner also includes a few more beautiful things in his overall thesis. First, all of the intelligences -or what we here are more specifically calling the talents -are available to all human beings, and develop, by simple virtue of the fact that we are human (but it is also true that all of them display in various other animals and primates -birds: musical intelligence, rats: spatial intelligence -and can be shown to have thus evolved). It's just that for whatever reasons they can be marked proficiencies in some. (Ex. The musical prodigy -ex. Mozart.) The brain damage aspect is especially useful for this, and it starts to show that, wow, this is just this same one capacity highly, highly developed for whatever reason in some people. We all use language, but very few are William Shakespeare.

The other thing is that Gardner specifically includes all four quadrants -in addition to other things-in his basic criteria, designations and examinations. Each intelligence (talent) must express itself in a specific domain - i.e. logical-mathematical: science, accounting, computer programming, musical: obviously music, linguistic: writing, poetry, lyrics, narrative (a “sub-intelligence” according to Gardner) etc. - but it also has to be shown to be highly valued by a culture. So he covers interior and exterior in the singular and the plural. (Interesting note: facial recognition has long been recognized as an extraordinary skill that can display in some -Ken Wilber is apparently one of these people as -but since it has never shown to be something “highly valued” by any culture, it is not included.)

Okay, tangent! But I hope this all helps this and the entire subject in general.

Anyhow, back to a kind of typography, Gardner has applied his particular Multiple Intelligences (MI) “typography” to famous individuals in a number of works.



 

In this book, Creating Minds, he examines the lives and works of Einstein (scientist), Stravinsky (composer), Martha Graham (dancer), Gandhi (politician, philosopher-interpersonal/intrapersonal), Picasso (painter), and T.S. Elliot (poet).



 

In this book,  Extraordinary Minds, among other things, he looks at Mozart, Freud, Virginia Woolf, and Gandhi again.

But the sum, after all is said and done, is that if we apply these sorts of things as a typology, it does work in a certain way but it just doesn't add up to the same thing as types like the Enneagram, astrology or male/female/third-or-other-gender, etc.

The evidence supports that these are cases of people being “led” by specific lines or streams or intelligences. To me, an amazing subject in itself! These types of things don't get talked about as much becasue they do seem to represent more “exceptional” or specialiezed areas. It is also true, IMHO, that what can be unpacked using AQAL out of MI has only thus far represented the “tip of the iceberg.” (Hence also my research into a dramatic intelligence -the exemplar of which is the actor, often stand-up comedian, etc. And I shout to the heaven's again -I have found the evidence! In fact, I plan to finish my first article by this weekend.) Hopefully one day that Integral Art concall will be published (Rollie said perhaps at the opening of the IL Portal). In my conversation with Ken we touched upon such truly cool things as being “inhabited” by a daemon which is usually very relevant to arts and talents - but incredibly, can also be related to simply the emergence of a higher stage. (Such as, i.e. many people right now have a turquoise daemon. For those who are not familiar with what a daemon is, it is some sort of higher impulse or inspiration or creativity or something that you have to act upon, you have no choice, no matter what you would do. And if you neglect or are unable to act upon the daemon, it turns into a demon. The term, of course, comes originally from the ancient Greeks.)

Okay -thanks so much, this has been very fun and useful to write!

Cheers!

Tim

Re: What is Altitude?

Hey…

This is an unbelievably great thread.  I feel catapulted into a different dimension just reading through the comments and contributions.  I am so grateful to have picked up on this today.  I-I

Re: What is Altitude?

BTW I just posted an illustration of the Altitude map in my zaadz photo album.  Check out the purty colors.  :)

spiral out,
arthur

Re: What is Altitude?

I now have so many books in my 'To read' pile/list that I don't know where to start (adding RAM books to the above list).
I studied Piaget as an undergraduate but only really remember the broad framework now (with one or two examples of experiments) but I do remember the elegance and simplicity of those experiments. They really do take you back to 'that' level and allow you to see where a child is coming from and appreciate just how confusing and bewildering it must all be  when an adult says something that you just can't see.

Juliee

Re: What is Altitude?

Hi Juliee and everyone

Great thread!!!

Tim, nice work for putting up the 3 types of lines distinction, I found that *really* helpful too.  I was justlitening back to him talking about it, and he also makes a really nice point that the emotional affective line relies on the cognitive stream.  You have be able to actually see and recognise emotions, before you can feel them properly.


Ewan

Re: What is Altitude?

Ah Juliee, I feel for you. And then this Harry Potter book just has to come out right now. :-) Funny story for me; I had actually 'given up' reading books about 10 years ago … (except for Harry -kept up with him all throughout …:-)

Hey Ewan, - right. I am actually at some point this week going to be making/copying the brief chart he has on this in Integral Psychology so when that's ready I will post it here. Obviously a relevant area when speaking of drama.

Tim

Re: What is Altitude?

Jumping onto this thread very late, I know. I was asked once
“So who is teal? turquoise? Indigo?” I didnt have a reference for him, so I couldnt answer. One assumes kw and his bunch would be at turq, but who is at 3rd tier overall?

There are 3 Groups.

The Cognitive or Consciousness Lines of Streams
The Self-Related Lines or Streams
The Talent Streams (or 'gifts” etc.)”

Let us just say, cognitively only - who is at 3rd tier at present? How many in the world population at large is at 2nd tier, and how many are at 3rd? Correct me if I am wrong, kw mentions 70% globally are around amber, 24% at green, is this correct?

So who is on third? I d like some names ;)

Re: What is Altitude?

Who's third tier? Ken himself is the safest bet I would say. I think one reason that Ken was able to map the turquoise worldspace so well is that he himself had transcended it, and could view it as an object.

Pelle

Re: What is Altitude?

Very, very insightful of you to see that about kw, pelle. :)

What would you say distinguishes a “more or less”(on the cognitive, ethical, values line perhaps…)  2nd tier person from first tier, and 3rd tier from 2nd? I understand kw drew the similiarity between Maslow's 'Deficiency Needs” from “Actualizing Needs”, and First Tier sense of lack, and second tier sense of fullness. What would you say is Third tier then?

Re: What is Altitude?

Yes Pelle thanks for that… Think I had the same thought on that matter. Glad to have it affirmed from another!

Re: What is Altitude?

I think 3rd is still only very loosely defined, and only when larger groups reach it will the morphogenetic grooves be laid down. Roughly we can say that 2 tier is worldcentric where as 3rd tier is Kosmocentric and doesn't have its identity tied to the ego anymore. To be honest I don't know how this would affect the moral line and such.

Pelle

Re: What is Altitude?

Other than kw, who would be qualifiably at third tier? I thought (mistakenly( that 3rd tier was largely speculative…….

Re: What is Altitude?

Hey, does anybody know of any other (reliable) links to this “What is Altitude?” article and the “What is Integral?” PDF referenced at the end?  Since the rebirth of Holons, these two articles have disappeared, and I refer people to them a LOT for a quick overview of what “integral” is all about.

I suppose I could post them on my own web site somewhere (I think I've saved the PDF file), but would that be breaking copyright laws?  Oh well, I'm off to try and ask Corey about this now, too.

Cheers,
Grey

Re: What is Altitude?

It's back

http://holons-news.com/altitudes

Re: What is Altitude?

Yeah, I guess I'm part of that “popular demand” Corey mentioned at the top of the page, because I'd sent him a PM asking about it just a couple of days before it went back up. Thanks for pointing out that it's back online, too!

Cheers,
Grey