The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

 
I've been reading some mind-blowing stuff from the Ruchira Avatar recently.

I will start with this:

If You Will Thus Be Love … You Must Also Constantly Encounter, Understand, and Transcend the Rejection Rituals Of others who Are, Even if Temporarily or Only Apparently, Bereft of Divine Wisdom. Therefore, If You Will Be Love … You Must (In The Way and Manner Of The Heart) Always Skillfully Transcend The Tendency To Become Un-Love (and, Thus To Become self-Bound … ) In Reaction To The Apparent Lovelessness Of others. And You Must Not Withdraw From Heart-Communion … (or Become Degraded By Reactive Un-Love) Even When Circumstances Within Your Intimate Sphere, or Within The Sphere Of Your Appropriate social Responsibility, Require You To Make Difficult Gestures To Counter and Control The Effects or Undermine and Discipline The Negative and Destructive Effectiveness Of The Rituals Of Un-Love That Are Performed By others.

For those who Are Committed To Love … Even Rejection By others Is Received and Accepted As A Wound, Not An Insult. Even The Heart-Necessity To Love and To Be Loved Is A Wound. Even The Fullest Realization Of Love Is A Wound That Never Heals.

                                                                   Ruchira Tantra Yoga

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

I say that is a pretty amazing & dynamically cool way of looking at it.
Thanks for posting that David.

Lisa

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

I'm glad you liked it, Lisa.

Here is another:

The ego-“I” is the avoidance of relationship, or the contraction of feeling-attention. The life of the ego-“I” is separation and separativeness—or the reactive pattern of “you do not love me.” Nevertheless it is possible to be converted, transformed, and rightly adapted—and, thus, to no longer live as the ego-“I,” or the separate and separative self-sense… the self-contraction is released (or felt beyond), and real love awakens (in self-transcending Immersion in [the] Infinite Field of Divine Love-Bliss)… .

One must  grow to actively not presume (or, in any manner, reactively affirm) that one was betrayed or rejected by … any one at all, or by life itself, or by Nature itself, or by Reality, or Real God, Itself.

Without this conversion from self-contraction to self-transcending compassion and heart-radiant love, there can be no Divine Enlightenment. Unqualified Love-Bliss-Realization and Divine Enlightenment are the same. 
 
                                                                 [Ruchira Tantra Yoga]

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Love it David. Don't you just think it's a crime that good juicy nuggets of goodness like that get swept aside when they come via a controversial figure like Adi Da? I see the same with Andrew Cohen's teachings etc – good stuff coming secondary to judgements on irrelevant stuff, like his clothing or whatnot. This is so completely strange to me. :)

Lisa

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Good to see Adi's working on his personal side, and with a little more work in the direction the above quote tends, he might even stop preaching.  The place he describes—the style of relating—might also be called independence: my inner movements no longer depend on—are no longer initiated by—anything that happens outside myself (you say X, somebody does Y, somebody did Z, nature is/was/does whatever).  This attitude, in practical terms, means I'm no longer hurt (my inner state and response pattern is no longer “hurt-feeling-initiated”) by something—anything—external to me.  One might say removing hurtability is long, patient, spiritual work.

I like quoting that the word “compatible,” etymologically, means “co-hurtable” = we hurt each other so precisely.  Relationship as deep practice.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

The reason I don't have an affinity for the guru of the month club is because these yahoos don't walk the talk. Da and AC both have a troubled past with students that no amount of fluffed prose or poetry can assuage away for me. This goes for any guru that mistreats and takes advantage of the student teacher relationship. Abuse masquerading as “crazy wisdom” for the “benefit” of the student in any shape or form does not fly with me.


lov e

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Lisa:  good stuff coming secondary to judgements on irrelevant stuff, like his clothing or whatnot. This is so completely strange to me. :)

I would agree that, when this happens, that is a real shame.  But my personal objections to Cohen and Da have not had anything to do with clothes or other stuff that I regard as secondary.  It has been to their abusive and exploitative treatment of other human beings, at least according to the stories that emerge from both of their communities.  While in some ways, even that might be “secondary” to something like Sahaja Samadhi, I still regard it as an important enough indicator of the “integration” of the teacher that I do pay attention to it and feel concerned about it.

Best wishes,

B.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Well, this has opened a big bag of worms! Well, let's just take it one step at a time … 

 Lisa: Don't you just think it's a crime that good juicy nuggets of goodness like that get swept aside when they come via a controversial figure like Adi Da? I see the same with Andrew Cohen's teachings etc - good stuff coming secondary to judgements on irrelevant stuff, like his clothing or whatnot.

Yes, I do think it's a crime. We need to look at things through an AQAL prism: all levels, all lines, all quadrants, types, states, etc. When we do that, we will be able to see what is good about a teacher, what the teacher has to offer, where the teacher might be talking outside of his or her area of expertise, what sort of developmental or shadow issues there might be, etc. It is a great shame when, because of some issues or faults, someone's entire work is dismissed. Usually, there is just shadow boxing going on when teachers are categorically dismissed in that way, especially when personal insults and type-based judgements are added to the mix.

Tom: The place he describes-the style of relating-might also be called independence… . One might say removing hurtability is long, patient, spiritual work.

I like those comments and your way of phrasing things, Tom. One thing we might want to add is the idea that pain is something that actually won't entirely end no matter how deep a realization is. Then people would learn to respond in authentic, liberated way to pain rather than trying to make it go away. Learning to respond to pain in an authentic way, bearing one's suffering, etc. would at least be an important step along the way.

The etymology is interesting, but where do you get “co-hurtable” from? I have found ”suffer together” and also “sympathy” or “to sympathize.”

e: This goes for any guru that mistreats and takes advantage of the student teacher relationship. Abuse masquerading as “crazy wisdom” for the “benefit” of the student in any shape or form does not fly with me.

I certainly agree with that. You also made me laugh with the “yahoo” comment.  :)

 Bruce: It has been to their abusive and exploitative treatment of other human beings, at least according to the stories that emerge from both of their communities.  While in some ways, even that might be “secondary” to something like Sahaja Samadhi, I still regard it as an important enough indicator of the “integration” of the teacher that I do pay attention to it and feel concerned about it.

Nice to see you here, Bruce.  :) Yes, there have been a number of stories from each place that should give anyone with a post-Amber worldview a little pause. I really don't think that they both belong in the same box, however. For a number of reasons …

For one, Da has not only declared that he is the greatest realizer of all time, but he has declared that he is also the greatest realizer of all times to come. This is just bizarre. That is either some very deep narcissistic pathology or exploitation or both. There is nothing in that ballpark with Andrew.

Also, Da has claimed to have had a “most perfect” realization. The evolutionary context, self-improvement, is not even on his radar screen. On the other hand, Andrew is doing his best to evolve, has personal and soul-level development very much on his radar screen, has been open about his faults with people who have spent serious time with him.

I don't think Andrew is the same person that he was when those blog events occurred. Even during the two years I was an official student of his I think he evolved. One of the blog stories was that he had asked someone to destroy all of their writing, that this would help them move beyond ego or something—in my experience (several years after those events) he wouldn't even touch an issue like someone's writing, really, would not even touch it.

I am not saying that the stories in those blogs sound good to me; they don't, or that things are perfect now. I just want to put things in perspective a little bit and suggest that he is not the person he was in 2000 that he is now in 2008. Also, I believe people should be given the chance to redeem themselves, even when they have done something wrong.

There are many angles we can take on that whole situation. It is really an interesting subject. As I said, many of the things written in those blogs don't sound good to me, but there is always another side to the story. For one thing, it is unlikely that more than a few of the disaffected students, if any, understood what Andrew was trying to do with them. From the perspective of the personal self, the entire thing is quite monstrous looking. The whole idea is to shove the personal self out of driver's seat, which is why his brand of  evolutionary enlightenment doesn't resonate with people who are into self-actualization rather than self-transcendence. It is a very demanding, challenging teaching that is actually asking for a higher level of integrity than I believe any other teaching asks.

Another thing I think we need to keep in mind is that neither of these people really had the work of Ken Wilber when they began teaching, particularly not Wilber IV or V. We are judging them from that perspective, but it would be a different game for anyone without that. Wilber IV came along about the time those blog events were happening, but it is something that really takes time to sink in. Da might have been completely different if he had had Wilber V from the beginning, and think of it from Andrew's perspective: like Da coming from a tradition that didn't emphasize the relative side of the street to begin with and often mythological/metaphysical, and not having any other map. Among other things, we also need to consider what a challenge it is to integrate the little-understood third-tier stages and how often people like Andrew are misunderstood even when they are doing things just right.


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Hi David, according to my dictionary, 'compatible' shares the same root as 'compassion,' the root being the Latin pati-, which is generally translated as “suffering,” as you noticed.  The older Indo-European root of pati- is pe(i), which means “to hurt.” 

From this older root we also get the term 'fiend,' which derives from an Old English root meaning 'enemy, devil,' and from a German root meaning 'hating, hostile.'  These latter meanings derive, of course, from the Indo-European pe(i) and are consistent with the root meaning “to hurt.”

: )

Of course, sharing in someone's hurt is compassion and compatibility in normal uses of those words.  But their root doesn't merely imply that form of sharing; it also implies a more active hurting of sorts.  I like the term “hurtability” as one such implication.

As to pain intensity, and pardon my talking about myself, my experience is that pain has diminished considerably over time, in a diminishment, in particular, correlating with what might be called emotional realization (not something I've heard Wilber speak much about, and for sure not in those terms).  I had an experience 18 mos. ago that was clearly an emotional realization, and since that time life has been much less painful, much more independent in the manner in which I speak above.  This is something others have noticed about me, which is interesting given I was, before the experience, not prone to drama or being emotionally hooked by others.  What's more, from the combined effect of that and previous experiences, I perceive, for instance, when Da says “rejection accepted as a wound” he's hurtable in a way that can be moved to “less hurt.” 

FWIW, I don't agree with Wilber et al when they say that pain increases when one becomes “more conscious.”  Also FWIW, I think emotional pain possibly can reduce to virtually zero.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

e: The reason I don't have an affinity for the guru of the month club is because these yahoos don't walk the talk.

LOL e! Trust me to put Adi Da and AC in the same paragraph! Two starkly contrasting people. With one (possibly 2 or 3!) thing(s) in common, other than having some very interesting teachings – works. That aside though e, you can’t entertain their writings or ramblings because they don’t walk their talk.
Don’t they? In Da’s case, I am sure he certainly thinks he does. : ) But he is living in a cocoon in Fiji. What he says about himself, and his actions in the world don’t weigh up. Together with other aspects of the ‘Da’ way of life, there is obviously some incredibly deep complex pathology going on there. No question. But even in spite of that, there is still a touch that is transferable to the real world, in some of the things this particular ‘yahoo’ has to say. :)

Da and AC both have a troubled past with students that no amount of fluffed prose or poetry can assuage away for me. This goes for any guru that mistreats and takes advantage of the student teacher relationship. Abuse masquerading as “crazy wisdom” for the “benefit” of the student in any shape or form does not fly with me.

Yep, it would be a rare case that ‘abusive’ style behaviour was justified. But this leads me to the question of ‘who students are?’ ‘Why are they there?’ ‘What are they truly seeking?’ None of these questions merit the right to abuse students in a relationship with an unbalanced power dynamic that comes with any such ‘guru-disciple’ relationship. But then there is a question of discipline. Could it be possible that what seems like ‘abuse’ is in some cases just a bit of old fashioned discipline? I know Swami Shivananda gave Swami Satyananda the odd bit of hassle, as did Sri sri Yukteswar Giri – to his disciple Yogananda. You can read about that openly in Autobiography of a Yogi.
The question of ‘When is discipline taken too far?’ Is definitely relevant here. As is thinking about the reality that the two people that come together in a teacher – student relationship, do so with their own unique strengths and weaknesses that need to be worked on. Nobodies perfect.

Balder: But my personal objections to Cohen and Da have not had anything to do with clothes or other stuff that I regard as secondary. It has been to their abusive and exploitative treatment of other human beings, at least according to the stories that emerge from both of their communities. While in some ways, even that might be “secondary” to something like Sahaja Samadhi, I still regard it as an important enough indicator of the “integration” of the teacher that I do pay attention to it and feel concerned about it.

Yes, I appreciate the way you’ve said that. I will focus on AC in this case. I agree that if one has a direct problem with this guy, it would have to be associated to these stories from the past. However, unlike you, who have had the integrity to voice concern about the wellbeing of people, - integralista’s on the other pod for example, repeatedly bypass concern about past exploitative treatment of people, and instead tend to focus on ridiculing AC, which today – as time has moved on – I feel is totally unjustified. AND at the expense of some seriously good present day insights.



David: We need to look at things through an AQAL prism: all levels, all lines, all quadrants, types, states, etc. When we do that, we will be able to see what is good about a teacher, what the teacher has to offer, where the teacher might be talking outside of his or her area of expertise, what sort of developmental or shadow issues there might be, etc. It is a great shame when, because of some issues or faults, someone's entire work is dismissed.

Yes, I agree. I also think it’s only possible when people are willing to hold others in as positive a light as possible, given that along a few lines etc, they may be a lacking somewhat and need to work on their issues, shadow etc.

Da has claimed to have had a “most perfect” realization. The evolutionary context, self-improvement, is not even on his radar screen. On the other hand, Andrew is doing his best to evolve, has personal and soul-level development very much on his radar screen, has been open about his faults with people who have spent serious time with him.

Yep, there is no doubt in my mind; these two are not remotely in the same ballpark.


I don't think Andrew is the same person that he was when those blog events occurred.

Yes, a lot can take place in 8 years. I reckon we could all count on one hand at least 5 incidents each in which we could be accused of harming others, by thought, deed or action in that same timespan. Or is that just me?: )


Also, I believe people should be given the chance to redeem themselves, even when they have done something wrong.

So do I. Makes life a whole lot more bearable for all.


For one thing, it is unlikely that more than a few of the disaffected students, if any, understood what Andrew was trying to do with them.

Yes, you can see how things could get very messy if that was the case.


From the perspective of the personal self, the entire thing is quite monstrous looking. The whole idea is to shove the personal self out of driver's seat, which is why his brand of evolutionary enlightenment doesn't resonate with people who are into self-actualization rather than self-transcendence. It is a very demanding, challenging teaching that is actually asking for a higher level of integrity than I believe any other teaching asks.

This relates to what I said earlier above about ‘types’ of students. I reckon many spiritual seekers are not even aware of what drives them to a teacher – their sense of personal neediness, status of ‘belonging,’ the seduction of being a student of someone they may have projected onto, etc. These are the types who are going to get very unstuck when they meet anything that shatters their own illusions, and are likely to be left the most injured. It’s very worrying. Because these types don’t so much need a teacher, but a decent therapist.


Another thing I think we need to keep in mind is that neither of these people really had the work of Ken Wilber when they began teaching, particularly not Wilber IV or V. We are judging them from that perspective, but it would be a different game for anyone without that. Wilber IV came along about the time those blog events were happening, but it is something that really takes time to sink in. Da might have been completely different if he had had Wilber V from the beginning, and think of it from Andrew's perspective: like Da coming from a tradition that didn't emphasize the relative side of the street to begin with and often mythological/metaphysical, and not having any other map. Among other things, we also need to consider what a challenge it is to integrate the little-understood third-tier stages and how often people like Andrew are misunderstood even when they are doing things just right.

Penultimate points to consider. However, though I think that this – what is an important point – will not be taken, when the issue of abuse is often deemed ‘black and white’ – with the ‘abuser’ coming off as irredeemable monster. This is lazy cognition in my opinion, particularly in integral circles where folk are more than capable – in most cases!


Ultimately, I agree it's so important to remember the good in people, no matter what they’ve done. Even while keeping ones critical judgement on full alert. It’s also fare to say, that not all people are capable of taking responsibility for themselves, which takes a high level of spiritual maturity.
Not totally relevant to this discussion – but this all reminds me of a programme I watched last night on a prison in Mumbai that treats its inmates so well, that people are know to break IN to it!
ISKCON provide the food for the 10,000 inmates, and the operation was prolific. So much care was going into the preparation. The floors where gleaming where the food was prepared, among other things, as well as a clean space to sleep; inmates were offered Salsa dance classes. : ) it was really heart-warming, funny and sweet to watch. So much love in action going on, despite the fact that these guys at one time or another collectively had robbed, murdered, raped etc. Namaste in action, no less.

Lisa

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

David : Well, this has opened a big bag of worms!

Not for me, it is a non-issue as I would not associate with these types of abusive teachers. :-)

For one, Da has not only declared that he is the greatest realizer of all time, but he has declared that he is also the greatest realizer of all times to come. This is just bizarre. That is either some very deep narcissistic pathology or exploitation or both. There is nothing in that ballpark with Andrew.

Fair enough.

I don't think Andrew is the same person that he was when those blog events occurred.

Lisa: Yes, a lot can take place in 8 years. I reckon we could all count on one hand at least 5 incidents each in which we could be accused of harming others, by thought, deed or action in that same timespan. Or is that just me?: )

Also very fair enough. People are not born a teacher and I am sure there is a learning curve. So, can either of you point me to a statement from AC apologizing for any real or imagined (un)intentional harm he may of caused students that would show he is a decent person like the rest of us? That would show there was evolutionary development over those 8 years. Or do we see him saying the students were at fault and he assumes no responsibility for what went awry in those relationships? You see all that you say makes sense for the average seeker. But I think we do ourselves and others an injustice when we don't hold our teachers to a higher standard. If they cannot lead by example, what are you learning from them and what real good are they? IMHO you are being deceived. Besides I am not a fan of this guru adoration. I have never been a satsang guru groupie as I realize no one can really help me in any meaningful way. My development rests solely on my shoulders and the efforts therein. Inspiration comes cheap, perspiration and dedication is what is important. Which does not mean spiritual friends and teachers are not important to help keep you on the straight and narrow, they just have a very limited influence on your own actual development that comes from hard demanding work within. So sorry guys, you won't see me support abusive teachers in anyway…adulating all over their words of wisdom, etc. If that is deemed un-integral…so be it.


lov e

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

So, can either of you point me to a statement from AC apologizing for any real or imagined (un)intentional harm he may of caused students that would show he is a decent person like the rest of us? That would show there was evolutionary development over those 8 years.

Not I, at this present moment in time.

IMHO you are being deceived. Besides I am not a fan of this guru adoration.

I really love your honesty throughout what you’ve said e. It’s great when people speak their mind. Can you see how your concern there though seems a touch over the top? ! Speaking for myself alone - as much as I do like the odd satsang if the opportunity arises, I am currently guru free, and wouldn’t merit my understanding and appreciation of some of AC’s teachings & general writings – as guru adoration. It would be oppressive to suggest that people couldn’t discuss teachers who happen to be alive and kicking – without equating them to a love-blind-guru-nut! : )

 
I realize no one can really help me in any meaningful way. My development rests solely on my shoulders and the efforts therein.

 I totally agree with that, whether one is involved with a teacher or not.

 
Which does not mean spiritual friends and teachers are not important to help keep you on the straight and narrow, they just have a very limited influence on your own actual development that comes from hard demanding work within.

 Again I agree, and I don’t think anything above suggesting otherwise has been said.

 
So sorry guys, you won't see me support abusive teachers in anyway…adulating all over their words of wisdom, etc. If that is deemed un-integral…so be it.

e, I value and respect your opinion and your say it as it is bullshit free honesty. And at the same time, I will still find stuff to dig that AC has written without feeling that I am condoning behaviours of his distant past.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Tom: Hi David, according to my dictionary, 'compatible' shares the same root as 'compassion,' the root being the Latin pati-, which is generally translated as “suffering,” as you noticed.  The older Indo-European root of pati- is pe(i), which means “to hurt.” 

From this older root we also get the term 'fiend,' which derives from an Old English root meaning 'enemy, devil,' and from a German root meaning 'hating, hostile.'  These latter meanings derive, of course, from the Indo-European pe(i) and are consistent with the root meaning “to hurt.”

Wow, cool stuff. What does it mean that the word “compatible” stems from “fiend” and “hating, hostile.” That's pretty wierd. Do you think that meaning is somehow still in there, as in the shadow aspect of compatibility or something, or do you think the word “compatible” has been so far removed that it doesn't really bear relationship to those early roots?

It's great to think of “compatible” as “co-hurtable,” at least in part. It's like “co-dependence.” It helps point the way to authentic relationship.

Tom: I perceive, for instance, when Da says “rejection accepted as a wound” he's hurtable in a way that can be moved to “less hurt.” 

I think you're probably right about that, that Da has a way to go in terms of vertical emotional development. What I really liked about that excerpt was that it put me in a state of mind where “I'm fine no matter what happens, if I am hurt a million times more.” It put me in a state of mind of acceptance rather than the egoic mode of trying to avoid pain, and in so doing I believe it liberated me to some degree from that avoidance of pain. I think the path to that independence begins with a radical, “eternal” acceptance, as avoidance is the game of the ego.

Tom: FWIW, I don't agree with Wilber et al when they say that pain increases when one becomes “more conscious.”  Also FWIW, I think emotional pain possibly can reduce to virtually zero.

I intuit that you might be right about this. I have thought the same thing myself. However, I think pain will probably get worse for many people before they reach that point of zero emotional pain. There are probably many Dark Nights for most people between now and then.

KW talks about this a bit in the Miami Beach section of One Taste—he's in the water, with an “experience” of one taste, and his feet hurt from dancing, but there is no personal self there to suffer from it. Ramana Maharshi also said something like that, that “there is pain but no suffering.”


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

David: That's pretty wierd. Do you think that meaning is somehow still in there, as in the shadow aspect of compatibility or something, or do you think the word “compatible” has been so far removed that it doesn't really bear relationship to those early roots?

I often find surprising shifts in meaning, and surprising associations, when comparing modern uses of terms with etymological meanings.  I haven't been so disciplined with my observations of these surprises to have a theory about them, except to say that words tend to have dual meanings or directions etymologically, with cultural uses typically emphasizing one.  I suspect one would find in this cultural leaning outlines of the culture's shadow. 

So far as “enemy, hating and hostile” are concerned, one can gain a sense of the experiential source of those meanings by looking, for instance, at such truisms like “fine line between love and hate.”  Love can uniquely perplex in how it can shift to real hatred of the just-a-moment-ago beloved person.  In my own experience, and briefly, I have found that where deeper, unsettling emotions arise in myself, I am face to face with a deep aspect of myself that requires considered attention.  In my more mature years, I have been able to snap the link between those aspects and the other, and particularly to understand the other does not cause but merely precipites or elicits those aspects (which is not to say the other doesn't have work to do, but that work does not relate at all to mine).  That precipitation only arises due to the deep, loving connection I have with that person, love being, among other things (I'm not defining love!), a measure of connection depth.

I've also noticed over the years how I manage to pick women who precipitate the very deepest unintegrated—ie, hurtable—aspects of me.

I find all of the above reflected in the etymology of the word 'compatible.'  I have consistently found etymological meanings to, in just this way, colourfully and accurately reflect human experience.  Language, in its structure of meanings of words, is from this angle but a repository, or map, of the structure of human relations (whether interpersonal relations, or objective scientific).


David: What I really liked about that excerpt was that it put me in a state of mind where “I'm fine no matter what happens, if I am hurt a million times more.”

Precisely: the dependence link (not the best phrasing) has been broken.  As Krishnamurti was fond of saying, once you see (realize, incarnate, materialize) something, “it's finished.”  A little sweeping up will often be all that then remains of the old.


David: I think pain will probably get worse for many people before they reach that point of zero emotional pain.

Could very well be.  Everything depends on how squarely painful elements of life were, for any individual, faced or denied in earlier years. 

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Lisa, I love your comments.

But even in spite of that, there is still a touch that is transferable to the real world, in some of the things this particular ‘yahoo' has to say. :)

Yes, I think that is true. I've always found him good reading, though you do have to cut through a lot of chaff, and it's hard to tell the useful from the not useful at times. KW, even recently (inthisinterview) said he remained a big fan of Da's written work. So I decided to look into it again and find out why he said this. One of the first things to jump out at me was Da's talk about victimhood, which may have inspired AC's teachings on victimhood, I'm not sure. At any rate, I think AC, with the evolutionary context and idea of authentic self (deeper psychic, psychic being) makes much more of a science of it than Da did. I think this is an extremely important teaching, and Da and AC may deserve the credit for integrating it with enlightenment teachings.

 Could it be possible that what seems like ‘abuse' is in some cases just a bit of old fashioned discipline?

Yes, that is a very important perspective. Of course in the postmodern, relativistic world there is no need for discipline because there is no good or bad. Flatland, state-training “nondual” teachings thus have a great appeal in postmodern culture.

Pressing students buttons is also par for the course in guru-student relationships. You will see some of this coming from Dzongsar Rinpoche in the great movie Words of My Perfect Teacher. I don't mean to minimize all these stories or call it all crazy wisdom, just to try to come to a more nuanced, integral, and trutfhful view of it.

 Integralista's on the other pod for example, repeatedly bypass concern about past exploitative treatment of people, and instead tend to focus on ridiculing AC, which today - as time has moved on - I feel is totally unjustified.

Yes, also some of those people who are so quick to dismiss AC or Da as evil villains are also quite quick to do the same for other people. There is a massive hypocrisy and projection in the whole thing, declaring how one person after another is so evil and bad while making a huge claim of righteousness for themselves and circle of friends. There is also nothing integral about this dynamic—it is all first-tier projection, blame, cynicism, scapegoating, and a collective agreement to maintain the status quo.

Yes, I agree. I also think it's only possible when people are willing to hold others in as positive a light as possible, given that along a few lines etc, they may be a lacking somewhat and need to work on their issues, shadow etc.

Yes, that is a very good point, and it is also a spiritual practice and discipline in itself. It can be quite challenging at times, much more challenging than it is to dismiss someone as evil. It also requires integral cognition to really pull it off.

Yes, a lot can take place in 8 years. I reckon we could all count on one hand at least 5 incidents each in which we could be accused of harming others, by thought, deed or action in that same timespan. Or is that just me?: )

I reckon you're right, Lisa.  :) Of course it's much more difficult to see it this way than to simply live in the Amber land of good/evil, my friends/not my friends. It also might help to keep it in perspective that mistakes on the part of leaders will be magnified—a good reason to hold leaders to a higher standard, of course, but also something to consider when we are tempted to categorize someone in a negative light.

David: Also, I believe people should be given the chance to redeem themselves, even when they have done something wrong.

Lisa: So do I. Makes life a whole lot more bearable for all.

Yes, and this is an ethic that KW demonstrates very well. But I have heard a lot of students saying things like, “I can't believe he associates with this person or that person. It's the one thing I don't like about him.” Well, they would do better to try to realize the higher ethic, affect, evolutionary commitment, and view that Ken has realized rather than criticize him for it.

David: For one thing, it is unlikely that more than a few of the disaffected students, if any, understood what Andrew was trying to do with them.

Lisa: Yes, you can see how things could get very messy if that was the case.

Yes, and AC didn't and really couldn't have had the integral map to understand it that these students couldn't understand his teachings at the time—or to understand himself from an integral perspective. I'm again not claiming that everything is perfect there now, but I do think that things are much different than they were.

Because these types don't so much need a teacher, but a decent therapist.

Yes, and here is one of the big confusions: AC is really offering a post-ILP or “top-down” teaching. It includes ILP but transcends it, but if people really need ILP they will not have such fun with the top-down view.

ISKCON provide the food for the 10,000 inmates, and the operation was prolific. So much care was going into the preparation. The floors where gleaming where the food was prepared, among other things, as well as a clean space to sleep; inmates were offered Salsa dance classes. : ) it was really heart-warming, funny and sweet to watch. So much love in action going on, despite the fact that these guys at one time or another collectively had robbed, murdered, raped etc. Namaste in action, no less.

This was great to hear about. I would like to see that programme. It is very inspiring and even transformative just to hear about things like that.


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

David : Well, this has opened a big bag of worms!

e: Not for me, it is a non-issue as I would not associate with these types of abusive teachers. :-)

I meant that it opens up a lot of different questions, perspectives, issues, and also a lot of strong opinions. But as for no association—wouldn't a real boddhisattva (or a post-boddhisattva if you like) associate with people they felt were troubled, suffering, or causing suffering to others in an attempt to improve the situation? Ken once said that Da wouldn't even admit the Dalai Lama, implying that the Dalai Lama had tried to see him. I don't rule out times for disengaging and such, but isn't there also a time for constructive engagement? Are you really saying that they are so bad that you wouldn't even consider constructive engagement? Perhaps you could improve the situation?

e: So, can either of you point me to a statement from AC apologizing for any real or imagined (un)intentional harm he may of caused students that would show he is a decent person like the rest of us? That would show there was evolutionary development over those 8 years.

I don't, but it is a difficult situation, and it may not be reasonable to expect anything like that. For example, we all know how it is on forum disputes when things get really polarized and there is no given and take—anything you say can be simply used against you without any reciprocation on the other side. It's especially difficult when you know that the other side really can't understand you or the issue as you understand it. There also may be reasonable legal issues involved. I personally think something like that would be helpful, though, to draw a line between past and present/future. Some statement about view and how things were handled then and view and how things are handled now, without necessarily admitting wrongdoing since that's an endless argument that's very difficult to determine absolutely in some instances.

e: If they cannot lead by example, what are you learning from them and what real good are they?

e: That is a very good point. What, in your view, is the right example?
 My development rests solely on my shoulders and the efforts therein. Inspiration comes cheap, perspiration and dedication is what is important.

I think that is a very important perspective, and not the most common one to see. Actually, it is also one that I think AC would heartily agree with.  :) He is very big on clarity of intention and taking responsibility for things.

At the same time, though, I think we should be open to learning  new things, keep open to the idea that perhaps there is something we could learn from a teacher here or there, verbally or otherwise.

Shunryu Suzuki said in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind that his teacher told him to always study before he taught, “even though it doesn't do any good.” So he always studied before he taught, “even though it doesn't do any good.” (Like everything else I remember from that book, though, I can never find the exact quote! It could be from another book of his. I did find a cool quote from that book looking for it, though, from Dogen-zenji—“Time goes from present to past.” Bjorn, are you there?  :) See, that's a good quote, isn't it?)


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

e: IMHO you are being deceived. Besides I am not a fan of this guru adoration.

Lisa : I really love your honesty throughout what you've said e. It's great when people speak their mind. Can you see how your concern there though seems a touch over the top? !

As your friend, I am just being honest, clear and direct. Not trying to cause a bad feeling to arise in your heart/mind.

Speaking for myself alone - as much as I do like the odd satsang if the opportunity arises, I am currently guru free, and wouldn't merit my understanding and appreciation of some of AC's teachings & general writings - as guru adoration. It would be oppressive to suggest that people couldn't discuss teachers who happen to be alive and kicking - without equating them to a love-blind-guru-nut! : ) 

 : ) So you say.

I value and respect your opinion …

…and I yours.

–

David: Are you really saying that they are so bad that you wouldn't even consider constructive engagement?

No.

Perhaps you could improve the situation?

I doubt it.


…Some statement about view and how things were handled then and view and how things are handled now, without necessarily admitting wrongdoing since that's an endless argument that's very difficult to determine absolutely in some instances.

It can be a very simple thing. 'If I harmed any of my students in the past, I am sorry, I did not intend to do that. Everyone, please accept my humblest apology. Please feel free to contact me if you want to talk about it to try and work it out.'


e: If they cannot lead by example, what are you learning from them and what real good are they?

That is a very good point. What, in your view, is the right example?

Don't harm living beings thru body, speech and mind and don't have others harm on your behalf.


At the same time, though, I think we should be open to learning  new things,

I learn new things every day. A few minutes ago I learned how to create a stucco look with durabond on a ceiling.


lov e

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

e: IMHO you are being deceived. Besides I am not a fan of this guru adoration.

Who has been participating in guru adoration?
 
Do you find that many Buddhists engage in guru adoration? For example, do many Buddhists engage in adoration of the Buddha or the Buddha dharma?


David: Perhaps you could improve the situation?

e: I doubt it.

Why do you doubt it?


e: It can be a very simple thing. 'If I harmed any of my students in the past, I am sorry, I did not intend to do that. Everyone, please accept my humblest apology. Please feel free to contact me if you want to talk about it to try and work it out.'

I have heard Andrew say (at a large retreat) that he made the mistake of pushing people too fast.


David: That is a very good point. What, in your view, is the right example?

e: Don't harm living beings thru body, speech and mind and don't have others harm on your behalf.

Sounds good. I like the Hippocratic Oath, which says in part, “First do no harm.”

~     ~     ~

I think one thing to keep in mind is basic Orange (modern) ethics—innocent until proven guilty, due process, a proper investigation, a hearing of both sides of the story, a non-biased decision, etc. I have seen a lot of people who claim to be integral neglect to live up to even an Orange ethic in various cases. If someone assumes guilt without investigating, hearing both sides of the story, listening carefully to each person, isn't there a great risk of doing harm?  Also, even when someone does do something wrong doesn't the collective often react in a way that causes a second harm?


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

An interesting direction: the deep ethics. After reading the discussion between you both - David & e, and particularly in the light of your remarks e, it strikes me that we shouldn't have to wait for an apology off somebody before we forgive them, or they redeem themselves as a decent person. If that were the case in general, it would be near impossible to reach out to anybody. Of couse, this is not the same as saying that a person should not be accountable for what they've done.

This is for you e: A photo I took of myself after reading an Andrew Cohen blog excerpt this morning!





Lisa

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

e: IMHO you are being deceived. Besides I am not a fan of this guru adoration.

David: Who has been participating in guru adoration?

Not me. :-)
 


Do you find that many Buddhists engage in guru adoration? For example, do many Buddhists engage in adoration of the Buddha or the Buddha dharma?

It is more complicated than that. There are at least 3 levels of Buddha-Dharma. There are the icons of the religion. There is Gautama, the historical figure himself. And there is the Buddha-Dharma as the Truth. People can take refuge in any one of these depending on the depth of their understanding. There is a sutra where the Buddha admonishes a monk for following the Buddha around. The Buddha asked him what he was doing. The monk said he just wanted to see the Buddha. The Buddha said something like, ‘fool, have I not said whoever sees the Dharma sees me, now go off and practice until you see the Dharma'. Plus there is the code of conduct (the vinaya, walking the talk). Buddha was explicit in saying if the practice of the vinaya died, the Dharma was dead.

David: Perhaps you could improve the situation?

e: I doubt it.

Why do you doubt it?

I have seen AC speak in person. There was a monologue with no Q&A offered at the end. It was a one way street with AC in control of the bus.

e: It can be a very simple thing. 'If I harmed any of my students in the past, I am sorry, I did not intend to do that. Everyone, please accept my humblest apology. Please feel free to contact me if you want to talk about it to try and work it out.'

I have heard Andrew say (at a large retreat) that he made the mistake of pushing people too fast.

That is a start. But the accusations on the blogs go far beyond “pushing people too fast”.

~     ~     ~

David: I think one thing to keep in mind is basic Orange (modern) ethics-innocent until proven guilty, due process, a proper investigation, a hearing of both sides of the story, a non-biased decision, etc. I have seen a lot of people on these integral forums neglect to live up to even an Orange ethic in various cases. If someone assumes guilt without investigating, hearing both sides of the story, listening carefully to each person, isn't there a great risk of doing harm?  Also, even when someone does do something wrong doesn't the collective often react in a way that causes a second harm?

Look David, I know it is all hearsay. We have words on blogs or words of friends who have other friends that claimed to have been “harmed”. One of my friends says AC is a good teacher but has no business being a “guru” as he has his own issues to work out. I am very far removed from all this and I really have no investment in all of this “bag of worms”. Like I said before I would not associate with folks that create or have around them this type of dharma drama. It is a bit too much for me. AC can address it all directly with a statement to “set the record straight” but he doesn't. That silence (lack of dialogue) without any sort of public apology says a lot IMHO.

–

Again Lisa, for normal everyday relations this is fine. Someone cuts you off in traffic and there is an immediate forgiveness…no need to go around hurt and endangering others in a state of anger etc. But if someone is representing themselves as an enlightened spiritually advanced being and assuming responsibility for another's spiritual development as their guru and they cause more harm them good, how far and how long are you willing to forgive and so condone their actions without any sort of reciprocated acknowledgement on the harmers part? All you are doing is being complicit in their “bad” behavior. Every so often Buddhist monks get together and confess their transgressions of the vinaya to each other. This is 1) acknowledging the “wrong” doing and 2) atoning for it with those who may have been harmed. It is a built in mechanism to preserve their “holy” life. So the forgiveness and reaching out is a 2-way street. There is forgiveness but also as important a recognition of the transgression that makes the forgiveness more than good natured lip service so one side does not have to live with any sort of cognitive dissonance. You know…life is a bed of roses without thorns.


lov e

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

e: And there is the Buddha-Dharma as the Truth.

Wouldn't worshipping the Buddha dharma as truth qualify as guru adoration? Especially if it is not something that evolves?


e: We have words on blogs or words of friends who have other friends that claimed to have been “harmed”.

Yes, and perhaps they were, or were to some degree. But didn't some people at the integral pod also claim that you harmed them? They were quite adamant about that, weren't they? To the extent of kicking you out? (Of course Rick and I were in the same boat.)

So, isn't it possible that those disaffected AC students were as much in the world of the ego as they were? Or that there were imperfections on both sides and neither are correct in claiming absolute righteousness?

e: Like I said before I would not associate with folks that create or have around them this type of dharma drama.

So, are you claiming a higher ethical realization than Ken Wilber, who is teaching with AC again this spring in the UK and who continues to associate with him, talk with him over the phone, etc.?

Also, is it possible that some of the things AC says are challenging or seem to contradict Buddha-dharma, and that is why you want to dismiss the whole thing?

e: But if someone is representing themselves as an enlightened spiritually advanced being and assuming responsibility for another's spiritual development as their guru and they cause more harm them good, how far and how long are you willing to forgive and so condone their actions without any sort of reciprocated acknowledgement on the harmers part?

How do you know that he is doing more harm than good? After one evening talk and a few blogs you have come to this conclusion? I have seen him speak many times and have met with him privately as well and have decided that, while there may still be imperfections, he is doing more good than harm. I am not out there trying to get people to make him their guru, but I think it would be a real shame if people didn't appreciate his teachings, which actually do cover some important ground that the Buddha-dharma does not.

AC: I have seen AC speak in person. There was a monologue with no Q&A offered at the end. It was a one way street with AC in control of the bus.

Where did you see him? I was probably there.


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Look David, you and Bjorn are standup guys and I value your friendship and opinions. I don't want to continue to criticize your teacher and breed animosity between us friends here. You know where I stand on the matter.


Where did you see him? I was probably there.

In Chicago on on the west side of Michigan Ave. Close to the Art Institute on the 4^th or 5^th floor.

lov e

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Hey, e, I think you're stand-up guy, too. And I also value our friendship and your opinions.

So we've been in the same room together! Yes, I was there, in the Fine Arts Building. I thought it was a very good talk. Chicago Bull B. J. Armstrong was also there. Andrew didn't resonate with him. I was pretty chilled out after that talk, myself.

I don't know that either Bjorn or I consider Andrew “our teacher.” I think we both consider him a teacher, and I think both us consider him one of our most important teachers. Bjorn credits Andrew with some sort of awakening. No small thing, eh? I would say that Andrew can be extremely helpful for people into the kind of Intuition we are talking about on the other thread. He was extremely helpful to me in that regard and also was extremely helpful to me in bringing the work of KW home, so to speak. Andrew is a very sharp, highly intelligent person, whatever faults he may have. And he does have a lot more care than some people give him credit for.

That said, I have questions about everything, things I think might be better like this or like that, etc., like every other place and teaching.

I will say I am surprised at the hard, black-and-white positions I see people taking on these issues on integral forums. AQAL means all levels, all lines, all types, all states, all quadrants—and somehow people come out with these good/bad, good/evil positions. And then I say, well, there's some truth to what you're saying perhaps, but is there perhaps some good over here? And the answer is, “No, bad! All bad! I don't even want to hear it! Bad!” It's not a particularly truthful or interesting way to look at things, and as long as we get hung up there we can't get on to the more interesting discussions.


~David
 

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Yes, I was there, in the Fine Arts Building.

Yeah, that was it.

I will say I am surprised at the hard, black-and-white positions I see people taking on these issues on integral forums. AQAL means all levels, all lines, all types, all states, all quadrants-and somehow people come out with these good/bad, good/evil positions. And then I say, well, there's some truth to what you're saying perhaps, but is there perhaps some good over here? And the answer is, “No, bad! All bad! I don't even want to hear it! Bad!” It's not a particularly truthful or interesting way to look at things, and as long as we get hung up there we can't get on to the more interesting discussions.

For me the issues with AC are 3-fold. 1) His actions with students. 2) When I saw him, I could finish his sentences before he did. That is, like reading Tolle's first book, there was not much either could “teach” me at that point in time. I am not saying I am all that and a bag of chips. Just that I don't need more teachings (knowledge). I know what I need to work on. (I know AC probably has more depth in his retreats etc.) 3) I never believed in God so those teachings don't normally resonate with me. I don't actively seek nor have any burning interest in them. I used to read WIE years ago but don't anymore.


lov e

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

 I am not saying I am all that and a bag of chips.

Haha. You're funny sometimes, e.  :) :) :)


Let's all contemplate the Adi Da Cosmic Mandala for a little while:








             










'

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Hey, that's cool. Maybe I'll get one.



“The Cosmic Mandala is not in you (the egoic body-mind). You are in the Cosmic Mandala. The ego is not Perfect. The ego must be transcended in That Which Is Inherently Perfect. If you seek the Cosmic Mandala in yourself—or even if you seem to find It in yourself— you are deluded, limited, and bound by yourself. Therefore, do not seek within yourself and high in yourself for the Great Form. Such is only the path of “Narcissus”, or self-worship.

The ego cannot Penetrate or Transcend the Great Mandala of Apparitions. The ego is not the Way. Transcendence of the egoic self-contraction is preparation for the Way, but the Transcendental (and Inherently Spiritual) Divine Self is the Way. In and by the Transcendental (and Inherently Spiritual) Divine Self, all the realms of conditional appearance are ultimately Outshined by the Self-Existing and Self-Radiant Condition and Domain that is both the Perfectly Subjective Source and the Objective Core of the cosmos.”
  
Ruchira Avatar Adi Da Samraj
(July 20, 1982), from “The Penetration of the Cosmic Mandala”

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

A Horse Appears.
A Horse Appears in the Wild.
A Horse Appearing in the Wild.
A Horse Appears in the Wild.
A Horse Appears in the Wild.
A Horse Appearing in the Wild.
A Horse Appears in the Wild Is Always Already The Case.

                               —Adi Da Samraj, April 13, 1998

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Ummm, interesting.

*

I wanted to ask - did anyone else read that piece posted above: The Penetration of the Cosmic Mandala?

If so, what do you think? I will embellish later…

Lisa

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Sorry to hurry past the Cosmic Mandala, Lisa! I didn't think anyone was interested.

Maybe they are just staring it.

A couple of things jump out about the essay for me.

The Cosmic Mandala is not in you (the egoic body-mind). You are in the Cosmic Mandala.

I think here is doing the same thing he is doing with the “A Horse Appears” stuff—he is messing with our conventional view of things, are convential views of language, how it comes to us, etc. If we said, the Cosmic Mandala is in your field of awareness or you are the cosmic mandala, the ego might like that in some way. But when he says “you are in the Cosmic Mandala” I find it beyond egoizing.

 I think he means that you are in the cosmic mandala in the same way that the ego is in the field of awareness. We won't find the field of awareness within the ego; it is the other way around. Da has a lot of teachings about seeking (and I believe he is generally reffering to state training here, though it is somewhat applicable to action as well), but I think this is an interesting and effective one.


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Yes David, I reckon there all mesmerized. :)

 

David: But when he says “you are in the Cosmic Mandala” I find it beyond egoizing.

Yes, check out this below pasted from that piece, I would like to ask another question if I may, after this:

“Just So, The Great Cosmic Mandala Itself May Be Perceived In Vision. It Appears As A Circle (Self-Generated In Its Own Space). The Circle Is Itself A Gathering Of Circles, Each Set Within The Other, Concentric, Formed As A Radiant Wheel or A Well or A Tunnel (and Thus A Mandala) Of Great Formative Lights. The Outer Ring Is Narrow and Red In Color (and Generally Set Against An Ambiguous Outer Field That Is Rather Dark, or Perhaps Somewhat Luminous, but Not Tending To Distract attention). The Next Ring Is Yellow, and It Is Wide. Then There Is Another Narrow Ring, Of A Moonlike Whiteness. Then Another Narrow Ring, Apparently Black, or The Color Of Indigo. And The Last Ring, At The Center, Is A Radiant Blue, Wide As The Yellow. In The Center Of The Radiant Blue Is The (Apparently Objective) Brilliant Clear White Five-Pointed Star.”

I've never actually read anything about this before, or talked to people who are very into meditation about this in any great detail. Yet I know this, as vivid as that stated above - from a time where I would be in a transfixed meditation for hours at a time. I have only met that whole vision if you like, once in full, and the circles came in from a great expanse, each one dissolving into and moving towards the middle - radiant blue. Now I only see the radiant blue expanse and white irregular shaped star, which starts to swell at the centre, and isn't much of a star anymore, though first comes in as a star like shape. It fills the space white that was radiant blue. Do you see such things ever, or on occasion or frequently?

Lisa

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Yes David, I reckon there all mesmerized. :)


Nah, with Da being so ultimately realized, I feel I am out of his league and there is no way I can comprehend All This. Same with the Guru and the Pandit. I am just trying to keep my awareness on my breath for 10+ breaths at a time.

Truth be told, I would rather go to the dentist and have my teeth drilled or have a room full of children scratch their nails on a chalkboard or go to a McCain Palin rally! :-)

peac e

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Truth be told, I would rather go to the dentist and have my teeth drilled or have a room full of children scratch their nails on a chalkboard or go to a McCain Palin rally! :-)

Are you sure? :)

Lisa

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

I get this subtle feeling e doesn't like Adi.  My guess is he'll come back and say yes.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

“Truth be told, I would rather go to the dentist and have my teeth drilled or have a room full of children scratch their nails on a chalkboard or go to a McCain Palin rally! :-)”

Word! :P

Seriously though, have anyone come out from the Adi Da sect more mentally free than when they entered?

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Is it possible to read and appreciate and even relate to stuff and be free from a hook, like a fish who upon surfing silver waters, has found they have just, by a wierd stroke of spontaneous luck, just avoided a nice eyeball piercing?

Tom: I sense you'd not take e's dental S & M plan option?

Lisa

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Lisa: I have only met that whole vision if you like, once in full, and the circles came in from a great expanse, each one dissolving into and moving towards the middle - radiant blue. Now I only see the radiant blue expanse and white irregular shaped star, which starts to swell at the centre, and isn't much of a star anymore, though first comes in as a star like shape. It fills the space white that was radiant blue. Do you see such things ever, or on occasion or frequently?

Lisa, how cool! I occassionally see these rings, which I see as purple with some kind of outer ring, green usually.. I haven't seen them for a little while so my memory of them is slightly fuzzy, but I have seen them enough that I am convinced that they are some kind of subtle entity. At first I wasn't sure if they weren't some kind of optical illusion, like seeing stars or something.

e: Nah, with Da being so ultimately realized, I feel I am out of his league and there is no way I can comprehend All This.

Hahahaha.  :)

I kind of think the Adi Da Cosmic Mandala might be good for a shamantha meditation. What do you think?

IS: Seriously though, have anyone come out from the Adi Da sect more mentally free than when they entered?

I think that's a good question. Saniel Bonder said he left Adidam so that he might salvage the last bit of his integrity. I don't know exactly what he meant by that; I haven't heard an elaboration. But I surmise he had had to participate in some of the goings on there.

I think the traditional guru principle—student surrenders wholly to guru—is an Amber artifact, perfect when you had Red students and an Amber guru. Kind of like when military recruits surrender to their superior officers.

But when students are already in Orange or Green or especially Turquoise or so, it makes much less sense to me. Then what Saniel Bonder is now doing, “Waking Down in Mutuality,” makes much more sense. There would still need to be hierarchy, some submission to the guru at times—otherwise we're in Green flatland—but I think it would have to be a dialogue, a give and take, with the “master” open to evolving as much as the student.


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

I haven't been around here for a while. Very interesting discussions you have been having in this thread indeed!

Basically I'm like e, not a fan of guru adoration, and I have an atheistic background. And I still get pretty well along with atheists. I have easy to tune in with them. When I read 'End of Faith' by Sam Harris I sincerely liked that book.

However, I have been thinking  as so many people are attracted to religions, to God, to gurus, they all  cannot be wrong. The guru phenomenon I have been pondering a lot about. Nowadays I tend to think it is an inevitable amber phenomenon, just as also religions are. The open question here is: is there any useful function for a traditional guru in a second tier worldspace?

A traditional guru is usually monological in his/her approach. A  role of superiority is adopted, from where pearls are being thrown down to the ignorant disciples. The problem is that this setting is  easily seen as untruthful from more evolved post modern stages, which perceive effective communication to be mutual. In a dialogue both parts can contribute to new insights irrespective of some differences in developmental stages.

But the guru approach is something that people at amber yearn for, and possibly need for their own growth. And really many people who are cognitively at second tier can have amber shadows or pockets in their psychograph, and therefore the guru approach could be useful for them also.However often their highly evolved cognition can become a barrier to accepting a guru.

Basically my present understanding goes along the line that a shadow must be brought up to the surface to daylight and lived before you can start work with it. Trying to camouflage it to something higher than it is, creates roadblocks and conflicts.

Also I think there are  many amber gurus who are very capable of teaching and transmitting advanced states to their students, that many people at second tier could benefit from.
 
I have earlier in my life felt attracted to a guru movement, participated in several meditation retreats, and learned through that participation easy access to advanced blissful states. This has been crucially important for my evolving and healing. My critical perception of gurus has been with me all the time, although my analysis of them has got more nuanced with time. I have never been able to see a guru as someone almost superhuman. I have instead perceived the guru being a human being just as I am, with the distinction that he has been attracted to play the role of a guru through his access to high states, his teaching skills, and also through his narcissistic tendencies.

This critical approach has not been a hindrance to benefiting from the guru's teachings. The guru may try to convince you otherwise, but you don't need to adopt that part of his teachings. It is fully possible to draw to oneself just the very subtle energies present in the higher states, and nothing from the stage level world view you cannot accept. You don't need to donate money, because it is said to enhance your prospect of enlightenment, if you don't believe in that kind of bullshit.

However, I find it not advisable to criticize the guru sharply in public situations, because you may end up being thrown out. But in privacy you can during the retreats have a lot of  fun in that front.
My strategy has been in private conversations with people first give ample space for everything I  appreciate in the movement and guru. Then I start cautiously bringing forward some of my doubts all the time gaugeing for cracks or doubts also in the other. If I find some, and I often do, I proceed from there, opening more and more the cracks in their idealizations and blind beliefs. That way I can find a lot of sensible activity for my intellect even in an amber retreat setting. And no one has ever complained that her/his state experiences during the meditations would have suffered because of that.

This approach is quite similar to my gym experience. I trained almost  for ten years regularly at a gym where also the top athletes in our city trained. I enjoyed observing those athletes, their way of being and training, and silently drew something from their approach to training into me, something that is beyond words and conceptual thinking. For doing that I did not need to adopt their world views.

As for Andrew Cohen I really appreciate his approach of evolutionary enlightenment. I have also got the impression of him trying to figure out new ways to be a guru and teacher in the postmodern world. It is not an easy task, and deserves my respect.

Irmeli

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Lisa: Tom: I sense you'd not take e's dental S & M plan option?

I like alot of what Adi says, and a deeper element of me takes it as a challenge to stand with my different processes, principles and perceptions without criticizing Adi from those differences.  That said, another part of me feels a desire to join the chorus in saying certain practices are harmful to others and need to stop.  Mind you, maybe I've lately gone too far in that direction as last night I dreamed that my old friend Jeff Smith's father (“father” “Smith,” ie, the ordering principle, ie, the mindset or operating basis of the generic person [Smith], ie, any person I happen to meet) was upset because I was late returning diapers belonging to his family I was washing.

There you go.  Wasting my peace of mind running around cleaning up other peoples' shit.

This dream perhaps bears on Irmeli's observations about how she addresses her differences to teachers, gurus, etc.

I basically agree with everything Adi says above.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Let's go a little further into this acceptance/rejection dynamic.  Every attitude, IME, creates effects, or operates, in two directions, one outward, one inward (two-way action).  Assuming this, one could say that any time a person rejects another for whatever reason, the rejecting person runs the risk of actually refusing their own difference (two-way rejection action).  What is rejected in any occasion of rejecting another is precisely the other's difference(s), therefore one could say the rejecting act is rejection of difference per se.  The inward action of this attitude—the motion reflected inward—comprises, at some subtle or not so subtle level, a rejection of one's own difference.  Tricky stuff.  Hence my diaper dream.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Has he any acknowledged enlightened successors?

(With “enlightened” meaning that the sense of personal, centered Self is clung to no more.)

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Depends what you mean by successor, I suppose.  Wilber seemingly had considerable learning interaction with him.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

e: Truth be told, I would rather go to the dentist and have my teeth drilled or have a room full of children scratch their nails on a chalkboard or go to a McCain Palin rally! :-)

Lisa:  Are you sure? :)

OK the McCain Palin rally was a bit over the top. :-)           

Tom I get this subtle feeling e doesn't like Adi.  My guess is he'll come back and say yes.

Hell yes!! What is there not to love? Da man walks around in his boxer shorts, has a harem, owns an island, does not have to work for a living, throws a hell of a party, puts a star in some concentric circles and people go gaga and send him money thru paypal. He is the Hugh Hefner of Spirituality. Hugh got rich off of selling eye candy and Da off selling Spiritual cotton candy. And all from a dude from Jersey!

And the horse poem is almost as good as this classic.

A horse is a horse, of course, of course,
And no one can talk to a horse of course
That is, of course, unless the horse is the famous Mr. Ed.

Go right to the source and ask the horse
He'll give you the answer that you'll endorse.
He's always on a steady course.
Talk to Mr. Ed.

People yakkity yak a streak and waste your time of day
But Mister Ed will never speak unless he has something to say.

A horse is a horse, of course, of course,
And this one'll talk 'til his voice is hoarse.
You never heard of a talking horse?

Well listen to this.

I am Mister Ed.

-Theme song from Mr. Ed-

Irmeli: This approach is quite similar to my gym experience. I trained almost  for ten years regularly at a gym where also the top athletes in our city trained. I enjoyed observing those athletes, their way of being and training, and silently drew something from their approach to training into me, something that is beyond words and conceptual thinking. For doing that I did not need to adopt their world views.

Yep, there was a monk at this Thai Wat I used to frequent. He was quiet and unassuming and commanded (not demanded) everyone's respect by his benevolent speech and actions. He taught Hatha yoga to anyone, monks included. This is usually frowned upon because it is too body centric. However, he had cured himself of a severe limp in his teens because he had studied yoga in India. He is a yoga master and an excellent teacher that teaches what he calls mindfullness yoga. He takes many breaks to settle the mind before doing more asanas. So yes, I would call him my guru (teacher) but he never told me what to do, it was by his friendship and studying his character up close, that is, by his example that I say this.

David : I kind of think the Adi Da Cosmic Mandala might be good for a shamantha meditation. What do you think?

Really the breath is the best. Anything that stirs up thought and emotion is antithetical to shamatha. The breath because it does not engender positive or negative sensations (is a neutral sensation) is the best. It is boring to most and so takes right effort to maintain focus on it. It's rhythm will calm and so it really is the best object. Take a look at the anapanasati sutra (mindfulness with breathing). This is how Buddha reached enlightenment himself.

peac e

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Lisa:  Are you sure? :)

e: OK the McCain Palin rally was a bit over the top. :-)    

LOL!!

e: Hell yes!! What is there not to love? Da man walks around in his boxer shorts, has a harem, owns an island, does not have to work for a living, throws a hell of a party, puts a star in some concentric circles and people go gaga and send him money thru paypal. He is the Hugh Hefner of Spirituality. Hugh got rich off of selling eye candy and Da off selling Spiritual cotton candy. And all from a dude from Jersey!

That is one very funny assessment e! I reckon even Da himself would enjoy the view of himself there! Plus, any community that has a dildo collection big enough to sell and fund the building of their next communal abode, makes me think he is a regular dodgy pervert, I've said that before. Perversity aside though, I still enjoy what's been posted here. : ) That said, I wonder how much has been 'realised' or even written under the influence of intoxicants? :) Does that disqualify everything? :) A serious question.

Lisa

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

That is one very funny assessment e! I reckon even Da himself would enjoy the view of himself there!

:-) OK I really donʼt care if folks like AC and Da. I have been playing around with all this. I just hate to see people taken advantage of and harmed needlessly. I have no animosity towards these colorful characters.

That said, I wonder how much has been 'realised' or even written under the influence of intoxicants? :) Does that disqualify everything? :) A serious question.

Oh jeez, back to the tea and heroin eh? :-) It depends on what we are after, radical change or fleeting experience. It seems reading others intoxicating words has limited lasting effect as does getting high on dope. 

peac e
 

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Put this pendant on e, and stop being so cheeky, I have the monopoly on the cheek stakes here.


Lisa

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Irmeli: And really many people who are cognitively at second tier can have amber shadows or pockets in their psychograph, and therefore the guru approach could be useful for them also.However often their highly evolved cognition can become a barrier to accepting a guru.

I think that's an important point, Irmeli. I was glancing at Spiritual Choices, and it said that most people joined cults because of a desire for approval and belonging. Belonging is definitely an Amber. Approval might be an Orange need (self-esteem with Maslow). And someone at Green or integral stages could still have belonging or approval issues on some line.

However, as you say, integral could still benefit from teachers. KW said something like, “All Turquoise wants is a good teacher.” Third tier will also be open to learning from others. But they are not looking for approval or belonging, unless for some reason they got stuck on that somehow, which is probably fairly common.


Irmeli: I have never been able to see a guru as someone almost superhuman. I have instead perceived the guru being a human being just as I am, with the distinction that he has been attracted to play the role of a guru through his access to high states, his teaching skills, and also through his narcissistic tendencies.

I think this is so important. Once a person sees a teacher through an AQAL lens (all levels, all lines, all quadrants, all types, all states, shadow) he or she can really take responsibility for him- or herself. Before that the guru is likely to be seen as God or the Devil, one way or another.

Tom: Assuming this, one could say that any time a person rejects another for whatever reason, the rejecting person runs the risk of actually refusing their own difference (two-way rejection action). 

Are you saying that anytime a person rejects (in an egoic manner) they are really rejecting themselves? Even if you are saying something else, I think that happens an awful lot. There is a projection of something that one doesn't like about oneself, then a rejection. Then, for a short while, the person is free of the suffering that they felt from that quality they didn't like about themselves.

IS: Has he any acknowledged enlightened successors.

Adi Da (aka. Franklin Jones, Bubba Free John, Free John, Bubba, Da Love-Ananda, the Ruchira Avatar, Dau Loloma, Da Avadhoota, Da Kalki, Da Avabhasa, Adi Da Samraj) has at least three well-known former students now working as teachers: David Deida, Terry Patten, and Saniel Bonder. I don't know if Da has officially sanctioned any of them, though. Ken has said a few times how Da claims to have the ultimate realization but points out he hasn't transmitted it to anyone.

I met a guy at an Andrew Cohen retreat who had a friend at I-I. He said that Ken had an idea called “spiritual throw wieght.” “Throw weight” is the amount of explosive in a hand grenade. Apparently Ken said that the average spiritual teacher, David Deida he apparently gave as an example, had a spiritual throw weight of about 7. He said Andrew Cohen was a 15. I think he said Trungpa was a 20. He said Da was a 100.  


e: Hell yes!! What is there not to love? Da man walks around in his boxer shorts, has a harem, owns an island, does not have to work for a living, throws a hell of a party, puts a star in some concentric circles and people go gaga and send him money thru paypal. He is the Hugh Hefner of Spirituality. Hugh got rich off of selling eye candy and Da off selling Spiritual cotton candy. And all from a dude from Jersey!
Da is one of a kind. These days he spends hours he spends most of his time with his art. Sometimes he will spend hours at a time under water in a swimming pool with scuba gear taking pictures.

Lisa: He is a regular dodgy pervert.

Quite right, Lisa.  :)


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

I watched several “darshan” videos of Adi Da on Youtube last night, as well as a short documentary on his art.  (Interestingly, my wife was watching a documentary on Jim Jones and the Jonestown massacre at the same time…)  I felt a curious magnetic pull and a surge when I first started looking at his face.  It was strange to feel that, and think about both his possible spiritual realization and the great darkness that also often seems to swirl around figures like this (as I was listening to Jim Jones' disturbing laugh coming from the TV…)

I distrust Wilber's ability to assess spiritual teachers, so I'm not particularly moved by his reference to “throw weight.”  It is clear that Adi Da is a magnetic figure.  Some of his teachings are clear and effective, from what I've seen.  But … I too find myself feeling rather resistant to him, and to this discussion.

In my opinion … too much baggage, and too many other good teachers out there, for me to linger long.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

First of all, I'd like to put this thread in context, or explain just how I feel about Da and why I started the thread.

In short, I think he's nuts! I'm not a certified integral psychologist, but in my opinion he is one of the worst cases of Divine Egoism that ever lived. I really think, as far as I know, that there is just a real narcissistic-level pathology there.

I don't trust him at all. I suppose there is a degree of projection going on, but the way I respond to his photographs range from horror to laughter to a slightly less acute form of mistrust. But I do have the same sort of fascination that Bruce noted. I think Da was a master at getting people to project on him, with his staff and feathers and garb and necklaces and such. I think he is a master at Magenta-Red-Amber power dynamics, which I think would be a really interesting thing to discuss.

If I ran in to him at his zoo or something, which I planned a visit to last year but never went, and he said, “David, you're a star. Come to Fiji and I'll train you as my successor,” I would run in the opposite direction. At the same time, I have a certain attraction and would be interested to go and look, even though I think he is well past his prime now. But that might not be a bad thing.

But, KW has said, even recently on the Saniel Bonder audio, that he is a big fan of Da's written work, so I just wanted to find out what was good about Da. Elsewhere Ken has brought up Da's as one of the most important realizations of our time. I think most of it is garbage, but I was wondering what good there might be in it. Aside from all the devotion-to-Me garbage, which amounts to at least a third of his writing, I do find that he makes enjoyable reading. It's an interesting case study for AQAL.

I hear you, Bruce, about Ken's ability to judge teachers. He seems to go over the top a bit sometimes. It seems like he has even done this with Genpo Roshi to an extent—not that Genpo Roshi doesn't deserve it. As far as I have seen he does; I have seen nothing to indicate otherwise. But there does seem to be some kind of projection going on there with Ken that he would elevate Genpo as much as he has, though of course it hasn't been nearly as bad as with Da.

Ken tends to err on the generous, forgiving, sweet side, which we might expect from someone with a Buddhist-Christian background, but I think that is the right side to err on.

I think the throw-weight business also has to be looked into a little.  I think at the time that Da had such an impact on him was probably the same time when he wrote that Da is the greatest realizer ever. I also imagine Da's throw weight being mostly or perhaps only of the state-training variety. I think there is a different throw-weight factor for authentic self, and that is something pretty unusual Andrew Cohen has to offer, I believe, despite any other shortcomings on particular lines.

So far in my little study—taken from books given to me by a former Da devotee—I am mostly just impressed with Da's teachings on victimhood, which may be where AC gets his teachings on victimhood. There is one more quote on that I have been searching for but haven't been able to find …

Another third of his teaching seems to center on state training, which I find only somewhat helpful as Da doesn't seem to have any notion of authentic self (it seems to me the two need to come together at some point, and one is only so helpful without the other).

By the way, for those of you who don't know it, the title of this thread is meant in humor, not in seriousness! Also, I mean it very much in the spirit of a case study for AQAL, which could include other teachers and such.


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Note: I think there is a real danger with the victimhood teachings—that they could be used for manipulation. You know, the master does anything and if the students object they are playing the victim, acting from ego.

I do think, however, that it is a hugely important dharma. Ego, as Andrew Cohen will say, will always take the victim position. That is true.

There is a part of ourselves that just wants to do the evolutionary thing (on a slightly more person level advance the soul's work), and the ego will throw all this away by taking the victim position.

A lot of people will act with reasonable authenticity, moving things forward, moving things forward—then something makes them emotional; they take the victim position, throw out all sorts of garbage, and that creates a lot of karma.

Not taking the victim position does not preclude strong objection. I think Martin Luther King in this video and early Malcolm X in this video provide a pretty nice illustration of the two.


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

David: But I do have the same sort of fascination that Bruce noted. I think Da was a master at getting people to project on him, with his staff and feathers and garb and necklaces and such. I think he is a master at Magenta-Red-Amber power dynamics, which I think would be a really interesting thing to discuss.

Enticed after looking at that crazy footage yesterday of Mr Da frolicking around his pool and apartment tripping into his camera lense, I also watched another 3 min video of him as Magenta-red-amber power maestro. What I found interesting were the sounds coming from his devotees in the background. Personally, if I see evidence that people are operating from a seriously lobotomized standpoint, it makes me interested to explore more - discussion wise. What I found also in that same video was that the devotee's speaking about his art and whatnot, by their participation and infatuation with him were totally encouraging and supporting his pathology. That's an interesting aspect of these types of master-disciple relationships to think about. We usually think of the disciples as victims of the master. But it's more obviously a mutually pathology supporting situation.

I think most of it is garbage, but I was wondering what good there might be in it. Aside from all the devotion-to-Me garbage, which amounts to at least a third of his writing, I do find that he makes enjoyable reading. It's an interesting case study for AQAL.

Yes I find that these little snippets at least you've been posting are quite enjoyable, and some of it pretty interesting. I think one good thing about at least seeing this remotely integrally is that you cannot deny a person some development in at least a couple of lines, even if you still think they are completely and justifiably Wack.

By the way, for those of you who don't know it, the title of this thread is meant in humor, not in seriousness! Also, I mean it very much in the spirit of a case study for AQAL, which could include other teachers and such.

And a very funny title it is too David. :) I think it's an excellent thread, provocative and maybe we could enter other teachers from Spiritual Choices which we never all properly got into yet.

Lisa

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Hi all, sorry for butting in late in this very interesting thread.

I many times feel the spiritual power/effect of the words and talks of Adi Da enormously powerful and directly transmitted. That in itself is totally fascinating and intriguing. Who is this guy?

But as a past student of AC I never needed to look elsewhere for a refreshing ego-bashing. All I can say about Andrew's integrity is from my own experience, and I firmly know it is about a deep (im)personal relationship, that is all about setting one free. Andrew never really dealt with my person, only with my ego. And I know that everything he did to me; humbling my pride, hurting my ego, was for one reason only; to set me free. He doesn't deal with people. He deals with egos. And when he deals with people it only occurs in the context of spiritual communion, or as he would call it, in an evolutionary context.
He really couldn't care less for anything besides that. That's what makes him so uncompromising.
But to engage in such a relationship will take its tolls as it does demand everything, not only your money but your life as well.

Now, some people does engage him without realizing what they are getting into and suffer because of it. Andrew's “fault” maybe is that he doesn't clearly set out the costs of engagement. But it is difficult to explain this to a novice. It took me ten years to understand, realize, and come to terms with, that he wanted my life, my soul and my heart. But clearly that is the basic spiritual/religious norm; to gain life you have to loose it. Very frightening!

It is a spiritual battle. A very personal journey. But there is an end, a final reckoning, a coming together.

When we see this coming together of their students and something larger is being demonstrated we can say we begin to see the fruits of their endeavors.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Lisaji: What I found also in that same video was that the devotee's speaking about his art and whatnot, by their participation and infatuation with him were totally encouraging and supporting his pathology. That's an interesting aspect of these types of master-disciple relationships to think about. We usually think of the disciples as victims of the master. But it's more obviously a mutually pathology supporting situation.

Functioning as a guru, and keeping one's sanity intact, isn't an easy task. Considering all the projections by one's followers the guru receives, even if the guru had only mild narcissistic tendencies to begin with, he runs in that position a high risk of a severe flare up of narcissism.

I still wouldn't call the guru a victim. Being a guru is his choice, and a fulfillment of his or his ego's dreams. The flare up is rather a result of the guru not being up to the task he has taken himself.

I agree that it is a mutually pathology supporting situation. And I suspect that the disciple has easier to turn this pathology to a crisis that will support his growth  towards higher stages than the guru has.

Irmeli

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Bjorn: Andrew never really dealt with my person, only with my ego. And I know that everything he did to me; humbling my pride, hurting my ego, was for one reason only; to set me free. He doesn't deal with people. He deals with egos. And when he deals with people it only occurs in the context of spiritual communion, or as he would call it, in an evolutionary context.

This is extremely interesting to read Bjorn, particularly in the light of your first hand experience and understanding of all this. There is something that I wildly love about the uncompromising nature of AC, at the same time - given the knowledge that people are generally not cut out to see the ‘ego' part of themselves with such a harsh view, as if it is a weed that they have to uproot at the core and kill, it also makes me think that a lot of what must have to go down in this context is simply inhumane. Wouldn't it be more realistic and more readily understandable and available to people - the orientation of his teachings, if they were better equipped to understand the authentic self, and the ego so they could differentiate themselves, rather than having it bullied out of them.

He really couldn't care less for anything besides that. That's what makes him so uncompromising.

I think AC, from everything I've read is right up there on the cusp of something extremely interesting indeed and not really understood. That is why I think ultimately the view above just there might at a future date change, because I believe he is unique in taking this on and helping folk understand themselves in an evolutionary context, but I still don't think he has yet arrived at his best way of doing things - mainly because I think this is the most difficult territory to both understand and traverse. That's why so few teachers even have an understanding of this.

Andrew's “fault” maybe is that he doesn't clearly set out the costs of engagement. But it is difficult to explain this to a novice. It took me ten years to understand, realize, and come to terms with, that he wanted my life, my soul and my heart.

Yes, I see what you are saying. Why do you think this is so fundamentally difficult for us crazy humans to collectively get our heads around? Do you think it is because the ego provides us with a perfect shelter that protects us from having to really face the responsibility for our own lives head-on?

It is a spiritual battle. A very personal journey. But there is an end, a final reckoning, a coming together.

You can definitely get a good glimmer of that from all what you share Bjorn. Good to see you back here btw.

Irmeli: Being a guru is his choice, and a fulfillment of his or his ego's dreams. The flare up is rather a result of the guru not being up to the task he has taken himself.

Ummm, I still don't know. I hear what you are saying, but then as a relationship, even one with an unequal power dynamic, there has to be a responsibility for oneself. The problem is somewhat of a collision of interests to a certain degree I imagine. The disciple - attracted for numerous reasons, projecting onto the guru etc, and the Guru playing with ideas and realisations with people who may be a very far distance from his same page. Yep, you can see in what Bjorn says above with AC, how the most profoundly damaged ex-students may genuinely not understand remotely what he is trying to do, which on a regular human level seems incredibly insensitive and could mess a person up.

I agree that it is a mutually pathology supporting situation. And I suspect that the disciple has easier to turn this pathology to a crisis that will support his growth  towards higher stages than the guru has.

That is such an important point I think, the fact that all this, the relationship, the dynamic and the teachings potentially lead the disciple into the throws of crisis, which then have the potential to support his growth, more so than any pathology belonging to the guru.
So it seems that if what you were saying above is true, victims who have had a harsh time potentially have the best chances of further growth, while the guru's pathology either potentially stays the same, or is further fed by students leaving, and new ones joining. Which leads me to say something really weird, that perhaps to a certain degree, pathology in one person can lead to radical change in another - the end of pathologies in another. Hey there's a good excuse to have guru's with acute pathologies!
I am now thinking some seriously bizarre stuff about pathologies, which I will now proceed to temporarily keep to myself. : ) Of course they come in such variations that there is whole scope for another thread alone on that. I will leave that there. But good things to ponder Irmeli.

Lisa

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Lisa: Yes, I see what you are saying. Why do you think this is so fundamentally difficult for us crazy humans to collectively get our heads around? Do you think it is because the ego provides us with a perfect shelter that protects us from having to really face the responsibility for our own lives head-on?

I think the answer to your second question is yes, the ego, by limiting the purview of things that can reach us, or get into us, or bother us—the ego as limitation per se—shelters.  You might also say the ego function is as a mother sheltering a baby, such that when the baby has grown, the shelter is no longer needed.  Note the implication of nurturing, here, and that of birth: the earlier (ego) gives birth to the later (non-ego).  Ego as nurturing birthing upward.  No separation.

Lisa: The disciple - attracted for numerous reasons, projecting onto the guru etc, and the Guru playing with ideas and realisations with people who may be a very far distance from his same page. Yep, you can see in what Bjorn says above with AC, how the most profoundly damaged ex-students may genuinely not understand remotely what he is trying to do, which on a regular human level seems incredibly insensitive and could mess a person up.

My sympathies tend the direction of what you say, here, Lisa.  A disciple is by definition, and by degrees, open and impressionable.  That openness and impressionability increases the possibility, because defences are lessened, that the disciple will receive input that is not constructive to the disciple.  A developmental understanding implies that, given the step-wise nature of growth, only a select few possibilities are actually constructive at any given time for any given individual, and that what is constructive for one person can be unhealthy (un-wholing) for another.  For me the ideal teacher would be sensitive to stage-specific learning and to a corresponding step-wise strengthening that, IME and IMO, naturally and spontaneously generates larger perspectives (a step-wise dropping of sheltering limitations, as above).

Note that any such ideal teacher would represent a growth from earlier forms, like everything in life, a product, then, of learning undertaken by such as AC and AD.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Lisaji:Ummm, I still don't know. I hear what you are saying, but then as a relationship, even one with an unequal power dynamic, there has to be a responsibility for oneself.

This is what I’m trying to say. A guru cannot be called a victim. He has to take responsibility for his actions. The same is not quite true for the disciple, if their has been false promises and manipulations made on the guru's part.

Lisaji: The problem is somewhat of a collision of interests to a certain degree I imagine. The disciple - attracted for numerous reasons, projecting onto the guru etc, and the Guru playing with ideas and realisations with people who may be a very far distance from his same page.

It is of course a collision of interests, but often not just based in developmental differences. Included is often power games and a need to control the disciple one way or other. This is based mainly on the guru’s need to feel superior to his disciples, and to puff up his own self-esteem, and ego or I , that have hidden weaknesses in it, often narcissism. A narcissist tends to think the all powerful positions over his disciples cures his hidden wounds, that he project to the others, to the world. In reality it does just the opposite. Therefore narsiccists are more attracted to a job as a guru than others. This career choice is not often based on being more advanced developmentally in the stages. However access to advanced states is usually a prerequisite for a successful start as a guru. Being developmentally at lower stages creates more grandiose interpretations of the state experiences. This fact has so far been an asset for the guru's career. I suppose  this applies to most gurus we have seen in tthe west, but not to all.

A person who is attracted to a certain guru has often similar issues as the guru, but as a shadow. The disciple projects these issues to the guru, and thus they form a complete match. However the guru is here the more responsible part, because he usually goes around making promises of enlightenment to his students.

I have seen that this kind of a guru can actually in some cases function as a catalyst to the ego development of the disciple, while the guru himself keeps actually regressing in the stages of ego development.
 
Lisaji:Yep, you can see in what Bjorn says above with AC, how the most profoundly damaged ex-students may genuinely not understand remotely what he is trying to do, which on a regular human level seems incredibly insensitive and could mess a person up.

I think AC probably does a good job as guru. He does not seem to be on a declining path towards bigger and bigger arrogance.

My own experience is based mainly on Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, whose declining personal development I  followed up to his death this year.
 I don’t know this Adi Da at all, but based on what I have been reading here, he seems to be on an even more steeply declining path.

Lisaji:That is such an important point I think, the fact that all this, the relationship, the dynamic and the teachings potentially lead the disciple into the throws of crisis, which then have the potential to support his growth, more so than any pathology belonging to the guru.
So it seems that if what you were saying above is true, victims who have had a harsh time potentially have the best chances of further growth, while the guru's pathology either potentially stays the same, or is further fed by students leaving, and new ones joining. Which leads me to say something really weird, that perhaps to a certain degree, pathology in one person can lead to radical change in another - the end of pathologies in another. Hey there's a good excuse to have guru's with acute pathologies!

Now you are making conclusions and extrapolations from my writing that I cannot agree with.

 I wrote: And I suspect that the disciple has easier to turn this pathology to a crisis that will support his growth  towards higher stages than the guru has.

I only say that the disciple probably has easier to turn this pathological interaction with the guru  to a growth crisis, maybe to a certain level of awakening.  I have seen this happening. When a pattern becomes really ridiculous, it is easier to see through it, and also the whole pattern one has been identifying with so far in one's life. Often this happens painfully leaving the guru and the spiritual movement behind. And I suspect also that this is possible only if the pathological interaction is relatively mild. Still I think it would make a far better route to find a competent teacher or  many teachers.

The guru on the other hand is usually so dependent on the adulation he receives, and control over his disciples, that he cannot easily drop his role. This situation is not fed by students leaving and new one’s joining. It is fed by the fact the guru trhrough his manipulations and power games manages to have all the time some students around him, who feed the pathology.

Irmeli

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Lisaji:Ummm, I still don't know. I hear what you are saying, but then as a relationship, even one with an unequal power dynamic, there has to be a responsibility for oneself.

 A guru cannot be called a victim. He has to take responsibility for his actions. The same is not quite true for the disciple, if there has been false promises and manipulations made on the guru's part.

Lisaji: The problem is somewhat of a collision of interests to a certain degree I imagine. The disciple - attracted for numerous reasons, projecting onto the guru etc, and the Guru playing with ideas and realisations with people who may be a very far distance from his same page.

It is of course a collision of interests, but often not just based in developmental differences. Included is often power games and a need to control the disciple one way or other. This is based mainly on the guru’s need to feel superior to his disciples, and to puff up his own self-esteem, and ego or I , that have hidden weaknesses in it, often narcissism. A narcissist tends to think the all powerful positions over his disciples cures his hidden wounds, that he project to the others, to the world. In reality it does just the opposite. Therefore narsiccists are more attracted to a job as a guru than others. This career choice is not often based on being more advanced developmentally in the stages. However access to advanced states is usually a prerequisite for a successful start as a guru. Being developmentally at lower stages creates more grandiose interpretations of the state experiences. This fact has so far been an asset for the guru's career. I suppose  this applies to most gurus we have seen in tthe west, but not to all.

A person who is attracted to a certain guru has often similar issues as the guru, but as a shadow. The disciple projects these issues to the guru, and thus they form a complete match. However the guru is here the more responsible part, because he usually goes around making promises of enlightenment to his students.

I have seen that this kind of a guru can actually in some cases function as a catalyst to the ego development of the disciple, while the guru himself keeps actually regressing in the stages of ego development.
 
Lisaji:Yep, you can see in what Bjorn says above with AC, how the most profoundly damaged ex-students may genuinely not understand remotely what he is trying to do, which on a regular human level seems incredibly insensitive and could mess a person up.

I think AC probably does a good job as guru. He does not seem to be on a declining path towards bigger and bigger arrogance.

My own experience is based mainly on Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, whose declining personal development I  followed up to his death this year.
 I don’t know this Adi Da at all, but based on what I have been reading here, he seems to be on an even more steeply declining path.

Lisaji:That is such an important point I think, the fact that all this, the relationship, the dynamic and the teachings potentially lead the disciple into the throws of crisis, which then have the potential to support his growth, more so than any pathology belonging to the guru.
So it seems that if what you were saying above is true, victims who have had a harsh time potentially have the best chances of further growth, while the guru's pathology either potentially stays the same, or is further fed by students leaving, and new ones joining. Which leads me to say something really weird, that perhaps to a certain degree, pathology in one person can lead to radical change in another - the end of pathologies in another. Hey there's a good excuse to have guru's with acute pathologies!

Now you are making conclusions and extrapolations from my writing that I cannot agree with.

 I wrote: And I suspect that the disciple has easier to turn this pathology to a crisis that will support his growth  towards higher stages than the guru has.

I only say that the disciple probably has easier to turn this pathological interaction with the guru  to a growth crisis, maybe to a certain level of awakening.  I have seen this happening. When a pattern becomes really ridiculous, it is easier to see through it, and also the whole pattern one has been identifying with so far in one's life. Often this happens painfully leaving the guru and the spiritual movement behind. And I suspect also that this is possible only if the pathological interaction is relatively mild. Still I think it would make a far better route to find a competent teacher or  many teachers.

The guru on the other hand is usually so dependent on the adulation he receives, and control over his disciples, that he cannot easily drop his role. This situation is not fed by students leaving and new one’s joining. It is fed by the fact the guru trhrough his manipulations and power games manages to have all the time some students around him, who feed the pathology.

Irmeli

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Hi Lisa,

Well, in one way Andrew has always said that it will cost you everything. It is just that most of us have no clue as to the extent of that demand. Even though it is paramount in all religious teachings; total surrender and death of self to God, Truth and Life. I had never really contemplated the extremity of this sacrifice. But when engaged with a real live teacher there was no escaping it. It's in your face every time you would meet him; he would know and I would know the real state of affairs. So this internal tug of war serves as a relentless reminder that there is yet more to give. And it won't ease up until you either run away or faced it completely and surrendered your soul.

But this is a very important point; unless your teacher/guru himself has gone through this pivotal giving up of self to his own Guru he is in no position to teach it to his students. Many try and because of it abuse their students trust. Unless a person has gone through this surrender to another, there won't be any understanding of the dynamics involved. Rare are the teachers that surrendered to the Absolute without any contact with a teacher. Remember, teachers teach according to what they know, and according to their experience. Yes, they live and learn as well.
Because most self-proclaimed teachers has not given themselves up unconditionally to a master teacher they never ask their students to surrender, and they have no understanding of such an event, and are most likely to dismiss any such requirements. Thereby diluting the promise inherent in true teachings.

Jesus holds out a promise, if we are willing to give it all up. But he also knows that we are all in different places and therefore accomodates that as well. Love caters for all alike, but in the end there must be surrender. If we are humble it might not need to take long but if our pride is important to us we might have to struggle a long long time (like I had to).
The uncompromising teachings are there to be seen and are openly displayed. It is just a matter of considering them in our own lives. If we are invested in this life it will take a lot of soul searching to come to the point of being willing to give it all up. It is not easy.

AC allows us all in but he doesn't come to you, he will always be in the safe seat, waiting for you to ask for more. If you decide to engage, be prepared for a real ride. Inherent in the community is a relentless call for more, so it is impossible to remain stagnant for to long. Andrew will ask for more. He is stoking the fire, blowing on the flames. Many of us just feels at different points in our engagement that it is too much. We need a breather. But anyone with a real zest for understanding ego-death will have to, sooner or later, go all the way. And once you do, heavens doors will open and you will know without a shadow of doubt that you have come to the end of yourself.

I think Andrew is not just looking to what may come in his students but considers what is ongoingly unfolding to be part and parcel of his evolving community. The results are already in place. It is beautiful to behold. With a surrendered body he can now begin his work of unfolding a living community, a greater expression of the spirit that is impossible to achieve soley on your own. A community that is evolving in time, grows and matures as it is engaged.

So, yes, it's complicated.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Tom: think the answer to your second question is yes, the ego, by limiting the purview of things that can reach us, or get into us, or bother us-the ego as limitation per se-shelters.  You might also say the ego function is as a mother sheltering a baby, such that when the baby has grown, the shelter is no longer needed.  Note the implication of nurturing, here, and that of birth: the earlier (ego) gives birth to the later (non-ego).  Ego as nurturing birthing upward.  No separation.

I really like that Tom, your extension of the ‘shelter' metaphor as a Mother sheltering a baby. You can see can't you why a spiritual teacher would want to drag the ageing baby from its Mothers breast (in metaphor land: food of the ego: behaviours & self delusions etc) and conversely END the nurturing process. This is what AC seems to do brilliantly, end that self (indulgent) nurturing process, which one way or another does have to be brought to a close, or more realistically - forced to take a back seat in ones life. After all it doesn't disappear completely, and it has its important uses.

I like it: Ego as nurturing birthing upward. So I too think that ultimately there could be a less aggressive way to move the ego out of the driving seat in peoples lives, I really believe that when this territory is understood more, more human friendly approaches might be possible to help people see these different parts of themselves.

This is why I empathise with the efforts of someone like AC on a few levels; he gets my full admiration, no less. When these teaching orientations and understandings are more commonplace, surely the pathological aspects of the likes of AC will be less fuelled, and who knows, he may even directly start to deal with some of the unhealthy aspects of his organisation by bringing more things honestly to light.

My sympathies tend the direction of what you say, here, Lisa.  A disciple is by definition, and by degrees, open and impressionable.  That openness and impressionability increases the possibility, because defences are lessened, that the disciple will receive input that is not constructive to the disciple. 

Yes, it definitely won't seem constructive to the disciple. It probably is one way or another, although as I said above, I have reservations about overt harshness, and think ultimately with skill and transparency it must be possible for the same process to occur: ego taking a back seat - without being ‘exorcised' by certain tactics.

I genuinely feel for the likes of AC who has got a good thing going on where his teachings at least are pointing, - I sense a furious frustration in him, he can see something clearly through realisation and insight, he's a teacher, and he wants people to change - to see (live out) what he's saying. Ultimately I think he pushes people too fast using the wrong means.
It's a weird one, after all, the teacher has a unique situation on their hands, disciples or students for a better word that are there because they want to change. I guess what people going into these situations might not realise, is that you can't change and cling on to everything else at the same time. : ) Change really does mean ‘to transform.' How many people really want to transform. And of course, some parts of us are easier to transform than others.

Right, I've had enough of this; I am off to Fiji to feed the animals.

Lisa

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Wow, so many things of interest here. I am going to try to be concise.

Lisa: Personally, if I see evidence that people are operating from a seriously lobotomized standpoint, it makes me interested to explore more - discussion wise.

Yes, I think that whole thing is fascinating to explore as well. It's a like a play, and someone gets to play the master and others get to play the devotees. Of course there are good reasons why one gets to play the master, usually, but sometimes the play itself seems to kind of take over, and it starts look more like a play than anything else. But of course that is probably appropriate for some levels, sans manipulation and such.


Lisa: We usually think of the disciples as victims of the master. But it's more obviously a mutually pathology supporting situation.

I think that's a really important way to look at it, mutually pathology supporting situation or “contribution dynamic” was another phrase I heard recently. The star, the person on the pedastal, is often the first to go and the one to take the blame, but it was probably a group effort to begin with.

~   ~   ~

I think we need to differentiate between a couple of things: conscious “abuse” on the part of gurus and unconscous Abuse on the part of gurus. And this ties in with Bjorn's important points.

Gurus, traditionally, in many traditions, have engaged in a certain level of “abuse” that is actually thought to help their students. And I accept this to be the truth, that actually a certain kind of “abuse” is helpful. There are a few reasons for this, one of which involves Da's “pit of snakes” teaching and Almaas' idea of the “emptiness wound” and “narcissitic rage,” which I will get to later on. (There is too much to say!)

At any rate, if you see Words of My Perfect Teacher you will hear some allusions and see some very mild examples of this kind of work, the evolutionary kind of  “abuse.” When it is done properly the teacher is fully cognizant of the whole thing and free of his- or her own fears and desires. There would also have to be a certain degree of skill involved. People who don't accept or understand this idea are liable to categorize just about everything a guru does as Abuse. Ken Wilber, in the introduction to Andrew Cohen's book Living Enlightenment, gives a little talk about the evolutionary kind of “abuse” that gurus can offer. Here is a quote from that introduction:

I have often heard Nice-Guy teachers say that Andrew Cohen is rude, and I think, “You don't know the half of it.” I have often heard it said that Andrew is difficult, offending, edgy, and I think, “Thank God.” In fact, virtually every criticism I have ever heard of Andrew is a variation on, “He's very rude, don't you think?” And I smile the biggest smile you can imagine. If it weren't for the Rude Boys and Nasty Girls of God Realization, Spirit would be a rare visitor in this strange land.

DZONGSAR: You may not realize that's what you're doing, but that's the idea-to dismantle everything: your identity, everything. And it's not like dismantling one big habit. It changes. Let's say today I would like to be stroked. Then a teacher should not stroke me. Or maybe today I would like to be beaten. Then maybe I should be stroked. So that's why this is actually beyond abuse and not abuse. If somebody bites you or beats you and handcuffs you, that's a kind of abuse, isn't it? But what I'm talking about is ultimate abuse. At the same time, abuse phenomena only exist if you are still clinging to transitory phenomena as permanent and real. If you don't, there is nothing to be abused. But that's difficult, really difficult.

COHEN: In that case, the teacher's work would be done.

DZONGSAR: Yes, of course. But the kind of student we're talking about doesn't exist. And that kind of teacher doesn't exist, either. Teachers don't have that kind of courage. I don't have it. I may be a teacher, but I don't have that kind of courage because I love my reputation. Who wants to be referred to as an abuser? I don't. I am a sycophant. I try to go along with what people think. If people think a teacher should shave his head, wear something maroon, walk gently, eat only vegetarian food, be so-called serene, then I'm very tempted to do that.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Lisa: Wouldn't it be more realistic and more readily understandable and available to people - the orientation of his teachings, if they were better equipped to understand the authentic self, and the ego so they could differentiate themselves, rather than having it bullied out of them.

Yes, I do think we need to develop more refined methods. You may have heard of the Horse Whisperer—he learned to tame horses in a gentle way, whereas traditionally they had been “broken” in a very brutal fashion.

The story of the horse whisperer is interesting in more ways the one. His father was a horse breaker, and when he showed his father his new technique of taming horses gently, his father took him to the shed and beat him up.

There is something interesting in there.

At any rate, he developed a way of taming horses by learning their language, and I think something similar would be possible with human beings in this work. Why not?

But I think that a lot of apparently gentle teachers are not really working on a particularly deep or transformative level. And a part of the trouble is that the students aren't always so gentle themselves, which brings me to Da's “pit of snakes teaching” and Almaas “narcisistic rage,” which I think is very imporant (and which also ties into what Tom is saying about the ego), but I will hold off on that for a little longer.


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Love it David. Don't you just think it's a crime that good juicy nuggets of goodness like that get swept aside when they come via a controversial figure like Adi Da? I see the same with Andrew Cohen's teachings etc - good stuff coming secondary to judgements on irrelevant stuff, like his clothing or whatnot. This is so completely strange to me. :)

Ah Lisaji ! Just what I think! Thanks for the great thoughts here David.

Daniel

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Hey Daniel, Alas, you've arrived!

David, I love what you've said there. I think my main point with the going easier on folk is really to do with the main point which is concerned with people not being able to differentiate between the ego, and the authentic self - psychic being.

You've said too much good stuff for me to deal with right now, and I completely agree that AC's approach requires a wild level of integrity on his behalf and I personally love it, I prefer his approach to any wishy washy style teachers who encourage narcissism etc. I am thinking that its down to the different types again, the transcender types love his stuff. Thrive off that edge which challenges them to the core, other types don't, but these other types will turn up on AC's doorstep.

I will comment more later.

Lisa

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

David – with your KW quote:

 I have often heard Nice-Guy teachers say that Andrew Cohen is rude, and I think, “You don't know the half of it.” I have often heard it said that Andrew is difficult, offending, edgy, and I think, “Thank God.” In fact, virtually every criticism I have ever heard of Andrew is a variation on, “He's very rude, don't you think?” And I smile the biggest smile you can imagine. If it weren't for the Rude Boys and Nasty Girls of God Realization, Spirit would be a rare visitor in this strange land.

Thanks for posting that. It is great, and a beautiful reminder to my young mind – I particularly love the lines: . If it weren't for the Rude Boys and Nasty Girls of God Realization, Spirit would be a rare visitor in this strange land.

And here is me encouraging such rare visitation with my ‘gentle gentle’ diversion. That was worthy of being copied twice. : )

 
DZONGSAR: Yes, of course. But the kind of student we're talking about doesn't exist. And that kind of teacher doesn't exist, either. Teachers don't have that kind of courage. I don't have it. I may be a teacher, but I don't have that kind of courage because I love my reputation. Who wants to be referred to as an abuser? I don't. I am a sycophant. I try to go along with what people think. If people think a teacher should shave his head, wear something maroon, walk gently, eat only vegetarian food, be so-called serene, then I'm very tempted to do that.

David: This is an important perspective in all this—that someone like Andrew Cohen has, to a certain degree, gotten into trouble because he cares more and has more courage than many teachers with better reputations who care less and take the easy path that will enhance their reputations and keep everything nice on the surface.

 
Yes, a very nicely put forth point David. There is radical conviction in what both you and Bjorn say in this respect. I trust that, because I trust what AC’s teachings are pointing towards. That speaks volumes to me & I think it’s extremely important then what you go on to say about evolutionary ‘abuse’ & deevolutionary abuse. It makes me think that unless one can fully differentiate between the two and with the types of evidence available – and you cannot really do that in most cases; even using the term ‘abuse’ is circumspect, and not really useful.

I guess in AC’s ex-student cases on those old blogs of yesteryear, they are very extreme, and as this is the only form of evidence non-students or those really interested in his teachings have to go on – when trying to understand where the condemners are coming from on forums like this, - so it is something to acknowledge. Where there is any such pathology, it’s two-way, and I wouldn’t automatically go with the victims position in what is a mutually consenting (to hierarchical roles) relationship.

 
At any rate, he developed a way of taming horses by learning their language, and I think something similar would be possible with human beings in this work. Why not?
Too many layers of human complexity? Do horses have ego’s? : ) Yes, I am thinking there would be an advantage to working it out with a horse! Btw, his father sounds like a scouser.

But I think that a lot of apparently gentle teachers are not really working on a particularly deep or transformative level. And a part of the trouble is that the students aren't always so gentle themselves, which brings me to Da's “pit of snakes teaching” and Almaas “narcisistic rage,” which I think is very imporant (and which also ties into what Tom is saying about the ego), but I will hold off on that for a little longer.

Very interesting point: students aren’t always so gentle on themselves. That’s a very nice perspective that gets fully overlooked.

Lisa

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Daniel, thank you very much.  :) It's nice to see you back here.

Lisa: David, I love what you've said there. I think my main point with the going easier on folk is really to do with the main point which is concerned with people not being able to differentiate between the ego, and the authentic self - psychic being.

Yes, I think that is a very important point. Also, since teachers like AC or Da didn't have the immense privilege and gift of AQAL in the beginning of their careers, they would have found it extremely difficult or even impossible to tell the difference between someone who was ready for the ego-authentic self work and someone who wasn't.

One way to look at it simply, I think, is the one you mention—Maslow's terminology that Ken charts in the back of Integral Psychology. Self-actualizers are basically people who are still trying to actualize or realize something on a personal level. If we try to intruduce the negate-and-preserve, ego-transcending teachings of evolutionary enlightenment (AC's version) at that point, it will just feel like it is working against them, tearing them down, and it really might be.

Self-transcenders, on the other hand, really want to move beyond the personal response and will actually get very inspired by the whole thing and will respond very well to the tough love that people like Andrew Cohen have to offer. I have personally found AC's tough love to be helpful, and I know others who have said the same thing.

However, to be AQAL about it, we would have to recognize that one-on-one guru-student work is happening along particular lines and within particular quadrants or within a particular context. It is one thing if a guru says, “This is a habit you have. You need to get beyond that.” But the organizational system in the lower-right hand quadrant is another matter, and what sort of values the sangha as a whole holds is another matter.

That lower-right system, the way things are done in the collective, the manner in which conflicts are resolved, how things are organized, how things get done, etc. is an entirely different work, a different thing than a guru's one-on-one teaching work. And that's very difficult work in the lower-right-hand quadrant, and probably a lot slower moving than the work in the upper left for an individual who is really working on it.


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Lisa and Irmeli, I have followed your discussion with interest. You both make some great points.

I think there is some kind of cycle that gets repeated, and one thing that often comes up for me is scapegoating. There are those who get supported and then there are those who bear the suffering for everyone else, relieve others of their suffering, including the guru's perhaps. Some people are served, a few are used.

Some students are perhaps valued more highly than others and given different treatment. Each student may not be valued as much as he or she should. Also, people may not understand that true care in a collective requires that everyone put up with a certain degree of irritation—it is just too easy for people to begin to think, “He is the problem, or she is the problem.” Or to treat people with different regard: “He needs his money, but he should give more,” etc. It might just be a very few who are used, but if even one is used it is a real issue.

Let's also remember that it's not something confined just to the most famous cases, the Maharishi's, Das of the world. Lama Surya Das, who KW noted had spent as much time with Tibetan Buddhists and Dzogchen teachers as anyone, said that Western students in those traditions have a tendency to be taken less seriously and even used for money, though the means of extracting it are likely quite subtle. Ken said that many Japanese Zen teachers have also exhibited a racial bias with their students. 

Also, the Amber guru-student relationship—the master is always right—can be profoundly unevolutionary for the master. All his or her mistakes are “crazy wisdom” or “divine wisdom.” Everything is explained in such a way as to keep the master on the pedastal. I have heard such things said about Da, that his most controversial actions were really just “crazy wisdom,” but course this absolute interpretation is Amber not all levels, all lines, etc. and has a way of freezing the master's development. The master is getting everything he or she wants, too. There is less incentive to evolve.

I think it's also interesting to reflect on lines, to see how we, and gurus, are, in a way, different people depending on the situation. Someone might have a certain COG with people in general, but then when they meet a certain type of person it suddenly goes downhill, for various reasons, because things jump to another line, the psychosexual for example. A teacher could treat someone he or she finds attractive sexually in a manipulative way, but be very good with someone who they don't find attractive, or just the opposite, etc.

Okay, the “pit of snakes” teachings are still to come …   :)


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Daniel, thank you very much.  :) It's nice to see you back here.

Thank you Sir David.

Enjoying the great thoughts here…you know what they say about great minds

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Daniel are you saying you've got a great mind? :) Thank god for that!

David, your post above is just about a thorough a view as we could hope to get around here. I fully take the fabric of that in, so much really going on when you look at the picture like that - what I am going to say below may seem like backtracking - but alas fear not - It just ain't good for the collective eyes posting under a post that is now way up there. What you are saying there, already levels this out - to backtrack for a minute:

 

Irmeli: This is what I'm trying to say. A guru cannot be called a victim. He has to take responsibility for his actions. The same is not quite true for the disciple, if their has been false promises and manipulations made on the guru's part.

Yes, I agree in a sense with what you are saying. A guru cannot and is not ever seen as a victim because people aren't usually fully aware of what sacrifice is involved taking their role on. Those comments I would hedge my bet on with a guru-teacher like AC for example. But possibly not others, particular some of the older Eastern types. Definitely applicable to a guru like Adi Da though with his ‘devotion-to-Me' carry on.
I am sure the guru won't believe at any point if they are convinced of there realisations that they are offering ‘false promises.' Da seems harmless enough these days - so I am taking him with a pinch of salt. Plus, I like his taste in locations. :) He is very well developed along the ‘location' line. : )

A person who is attracted to a certain guru has often similar issues as the guru, but as a shadow. The disciple projects these issues to the guru, and thus they form a complete match. However the guru is here the more responsible part, because he usually goes around making promises of enlightenment to his students.

And people who are continuously compelled to dismiss a certain guru and condemn their teachings and persona in every respect are also projecting great levels of shadow on to this one figure, which is then magnified out of proportion by all. Both valid views.

Tom it would be interesting to hear what you have to say with your etymology perspective, because these words - guru & teacher seem so different. One title: Guru -  is easy to dump garbage & project on to, and the other: seems much more straightforward, and I guess it's because as a word it doesn't necessarily have spiritual connotations. Shadow aside, in our heavy psychologically orientated times - could it be simpler: in that it is sometimes just the depth and magnitude alone of what is being taught/ or said that attracts a person to a certain guru-teacher?

Irmeli: Now you are making conclusions and extrapolations from my writing that I cannot agree with. I wrote: And I suspect that the disciple has easier to turn this pathology to a crisis that will support his growth towards higher stages than the guru has.

only say that the disciple probably has easier to turn this pathological interaction with the guru  to a growth crisis, maybe to a certain level of awakening

Yep that's what I thought you were saying. Communication confusion I think. And superficial extension of what you were saying on my part which I admit I quite enjoyed: Apologies.

The guru on the other hand is usually so dependent on the adulation he receives, and control over his disciples, that he cannot easily drop his role. This situation is not fed by students leaving and new one's joining. It is fed by the fact the guru through his manipulations and power games manages to have all the time some students around him, who feed the pathology.

In a way, to say that it is through a guru's manipulations and power games that they continue to have students around them, who then feed their pathology - ignores the mutuality of the situation a bit too much for me. We did agree somewhere earlier on this mutuality point. Seeing students first and foremost as victims from the outset doesn't give the student credit (or responsibility) for their own ability to make intellectual & spiritual judgements, and ignores their awareness that accompanies their consent to a submissive role in a spiritual relationship between two adults, -which then is extended to the larger community. That said I can see how in some cases what you are saying would probably be somewhat true. Back to the realms of translation versus transformation.

Lisa

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Lisa said,
In a way, to say that it is through a guru's manipulations and power games that they continue to have students around them, who then feed their pathology - ignores the mutuality of the situation a bit too much for me. We did agree somewhere earlier on this mutuality point. Seeing students first and foremost as victims from the outset doesn't give the student credit (or responsibility) for their own ability to make intellectual & spiritual judgements, and ignores their awareness that accompanies their consent to a submissive role in a spiritual relationship between two adults, -which then is extended to the larger community.

I agree with this. For a few years ago at an other forum I compared these narcissistic gurus to whores. They exist as long as there is demand for them.
That comparison was not too weel received.

Lisaji:I am sure the guru won't believe at any point if they are convinced of there realisations that they are offering ‘false promises.'

It may be. The problem is that people don't understand that guru's standard of making promises is quite different than their own.
A guru may perceive that he is an incarnation of God even if he does not express it explicitly. From that position he tends to promise whatever he dreams. At lower stages of development  there is a often subconsciuous belief that whatever I can make others believe to becomes a truth. And some gurus are at that stage.

For a few years ago Maharishi had two month long enlightenment courses. He promised every participant enlightenment. The cost of those courses was one million dollars. Those who participated in those courses I woudn't call victims. It all was too transparent.

However there are much more subtle forms of false or too grandiose promises. And I wonder if it the guru really doesn't know he is giving at least some exaggerated promises just to attract disciples and to have more success. End justifies means strategy is often used. And the end wanted is the success of the guru and the movement. Honesty towards the follower is very secondary in that game. In the long run this approach of course creates poor results.

Long ago a western disciple heard Maharishi call his western disciples *gullible fools* to another Indian teacher that was visiting him.

Irmeli

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Lisa: Tom it would be interesting to hear what you have to say with your etymology perspective, because these words - guru & teacher seem so different.

I'm not Tom, but I respond to this because in Finnish there is the word 'kuru'  that is pronounced pretty much the same way as guru except g has been changed to k.
'Kuru' means a narrow passage in a mountainous, rough terrain through which the wanderer can get to the other side.

I think metaphorically this makes a terrific description of what is a competent guru's function. 

That function is clearly different from that of a teacher.

Irmeli

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Irmeli: agree with this. For a few years ago at an other forum I compared these narcissistic gurus to whores. They exist as long as there is demand for them.
That comparison was not too weel received.

 
That is a beautiful (as in humorous), harsh and funny comparison Irmeli!

For a few years ago Maharishi had two month long enlightenment courses. He promised every participant enlightenment. The cost of those courses was one million dollars. Those who participated in those courses I wouldn't call victims. It all was too transparent.

 
Wow, what a prize cowboy. I hope his participants were satisfied. I would personally like to know if any of them felt they had ‘got their moneys worth.’ : )Yes, I wouldn’t say they are victims either, just folk who have more money than sense.

 
And I wonder if it the guru really doesn't know he is giving at least some exaggerated promises just to attract disciples and to have more success. End justifies means strategy is often used.

 Well it happens in politics all the time, and in other spheres of life, so you might well be right.

 
In Finnish there is the word 'kuru'  that is pronounced pretty much the same way as guru except g has been changed to k. 'Kuru' means a narrow passage in a mountainous, rough terrain through which the wanderer can get to the other side.
I think metaphorically this makes a terrific description of what is a competent guru's function.  That function is clearly different from that of a teacher.

 
Yes, so do I. That is the best variation I have heard yet.

Lisa

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Hi Lisa,

Did you see my reply to you above?

I want to say something about the role or position of a Guru. There are many self-proclaimed teachers who do the best they can. But I'd like to address the few and far between realized sages that never had to make a choice in regards to teaching. These people find themselves in a suffering world and cannot but help to do good, teach and guide us. Their very nature demands it. The Buddha thought it would be too difficult for people to appreciate his teaching but was eventually forced to do it anyway.

Once I realized what the Messiah meant, what a world-transcender or Saviour, a Buddha or an Avatar implied. Anyone of us that reaches that extreme height will have to by its own nature take on the world without reservation. They are one and the same. One cannot be fully realized and avoid the inherent responsibility of saving mankind. It is not a choice, it is part and parcel of realization. So once we come to terms with this immense responsibility and accepts its due course one will by necessity be elevated to such a position. Remember Jesus said;
14”I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me- 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father-and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life-only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Lisa: Wow, what a prize cowboy. I hope his participants were satisfied. I would personally like to know if any of them felt they had ‘got their moneys worth.’

I suppose David Lynch was on that million dollar enlighenment course, but I'm not quite sure. At least he seems to be satisfied with the movement, and keeps on travelling and propagating for it.

I  gave somewhat onesided information of that course. Attached to the parrticipation was a  one million dollar donation for training and maintaning in India  big groups of pundits to do everyday several hours TM-programs and yagyas for creating world peace.

Already in the 90's TM-movement collected enormous amounts of money for that purpose. The problem is that there is little transparency in the movement for the follow up of the use of the donated money. And no really big TM-related pundit groups have been found in India. They should be there if all the donated money had been really used for that purpose.

Irmeli

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Hi Bjorn,

No I didn't see it. Thank you very much for asking me, or your amazing sharings would have gone unnoticed. I am blown away by what you say up there and down here, heaven & earth, beautifully put.

I am going to contemplate your words, and reply later on. This thread is: On Fire!

Lisa

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

This thread is: On Fire!

Yeah, let's cool off a little.

Look kids, it is very simple, Craving is the teacher. We don't need a Guru to beat that into our thick skulls or have someone whisper that into our ears!! Just sit down shut up and see where you get hung up. Once you get the hang of it alone by yourself, go off and live and see where you cling to positive sensations and push away negative ones. What more needs to be known and practiced? If you got issues (shadow et al) get some therapy from a licensed therapist or shaman if you are so inclined.

Send me as much cash as you want to my paypal account since I just saved you about $1000 in books and lord knows how much in satsang admission fees! :-)))))

peac e

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

e, what's your paypal address?  I'll send you a couple bucks.  I'd send more, but I gave it all to Osho.  Paid for a few oil changes of his fleet.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

:-) My wife's family lives in Pune about a mile from Osho's headquarters. We hike their public nature trail when we visit. We took a tour of the ashram once. I was not too impressed. It seemed like not to serious of a seeker was there. Like folks looking for a “spiritual experience” and some fun on their holiday from work. Mostly affluent westerners having a vacation in India.

peac e

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Yes, a true Club Med, errr ….

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

e, I was in India this year, and stopped by Osho's ashram.  I loved my visit overall, loved the Indian ethos and the ancient aspect I felt and saw and experienced.  There is something about the chaos of India that left a deep mark on me. 

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Hi guys,

All teachers and gurus are worthless to the student and the mind will discard that which is not already there IN the student. The idea that there is something new to learn is a hoax the student plays on the guru. This way the 'self' can be retained as not 'realized,' but forever seeking realization/awakening. The dynamics of the guru game is really amusing since we can dump it all on somebody else who's job is to dump it back on us. LOL!

The self seeks out what is useful based on its own requirements, even before the teacher speaks, so only what resonates will be heard. The best teacher is the one that bows to you, but most likely we would have none of that crap since that would negate the enlightened teacher.

So, essentially, you teach yourself. The “teacher” only confirms what is already known by YOU. In that sense all teachers are useless and any enlightenment, realization, awakening, etc, etc, you give yourself as there are no intermediaries for the contents of your mind since all intermediaries are content too. (although we tend to project it onto others in the desire for an external reference point, but that's just “wishful thinking).

The guru gives you what you ask for, although you may deny consciousness of the asking.  I feel the same way with regard to 'spiritual paths.' Seems kinda silly when you really dig into it.

Been reading these great posts for quite some time and just thought I'd chime in, for what it's worth..

Thanks,
mike S

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

“Guru” derives from the IE root gwere-, meaning heavy.  From this root derive the English words ‘gravity,’ ‘grave,’ ‘grief,’ ‘brute’ and ‘blitzkrieg.’

Here’s another angle of view on this question of guru, teacher, leader, etc.  One essential character of anything that is, including any living thing, is that thing’s difference. Difference, IME, carries close associations with aloneness: in my difference per se, I am alone, such that difference at this deep level can almost be equated with aloneness.

What is the measure of aloneness on the inner scale of human experience?  How important is aloneness in one’s self-structure and development?  Here’s one observation that might provide an inroad to answering those questions: in my experience of the inner path and inner development, I have always agreed with any other person I’ve ever met only partially.  Over years of finding only partial agreement, and feeling frustrated by this partiality, I began to realize that, at least for myself, an essential component of who I am and how I develop, what is relevant to me and when, is my very uniqueness.  And that uniqueness, being what it is, cannot be fully mapped onto or by someone else’s experience, path, structure, personality, values, development, perspective, ideas, goals, instruction, teaching, method.  In the end, and as regards my difference—the essential stamp of my unique existence and contribution—it’s all over to me.  There is, for that essential element, and like Mike says above, no leader.  Nobody can integrate for me and in me my difference.

This perspective might shine some light on emotions people can feel when they feel betrayed by a leader.  Without denying a leader’s (guru’s, teacher’s) responsibility for these human dynamics, but for a moment to speak entirely to other than the leader’s responsibility—to speak only to self-responsibility—one might suggest that the energy one feels in ‘betrayal’ is the measure of energy activated when one gives over responsibility for one’s aloneness to another.  This energy seems to say that integrating one’s aloneness is so critical, so vital, that giving responsibility for integrating it to another will invite a storm that can take a lifetime to resolve.  IMO, the moment of such resolution is the very moment one agrees—innerly agrees—to integrate one’s uniqueness oneself.

As to the importance of aloneness in the human psyche, the etymology of alone gives a very deep significance.  “Alone” derives etymologically from two words meaning “all one.”  Here again language reflects the unity of things: that which is fundamentally particular, unique and separate (aloneness) is the ground and basis—is not separate from and is—the non-separateness (all oneness) that pervades all.  One could thus say that integrating one’s aloneness is an essential element on the path to finding in one’s experience the beautiful, ultimately healing embodiment of unity.  The flip side of this equation is that where aloneness is muddied, so is unity.  Clear one is clear the other.

One might from this perspective see the energies surrounding ‘abuse’ incidents as friendly in this direction, and of necessarily high voltage.  Those energies hit at such a deep level they literally cannot be set aside, and force one in the direction of resolution.  My view of that resolution I’ve stated above.

Now that's heavy stuff.  Of grave importance one might say.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Funny how people with no experience of personal surrender to a genuine guru speaks with authority on the same subject.

There is no teacher, there is no student. There is no life, there is no death. There is no you, there is no me. Advaita this, advaita that. Who is speaking?

Who do you convince?

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Bjorn, by “genuine guru” do you mean some fleshly person?

Regardless your answer, my post speaks to the death of the guru idea.  Andrew Cohen is just a guy.  And by virtue of the certain future to come, he's already obsolete.  A neanderthal.  Like Ken Wilber.  And me.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Funny how some people assume the experiences of another. I suppose they truly are 'one' with the universe (how else would they know?).

Advaita? Now, what is that? I've heard it spoken, but alas I have no such training.

But your definition sounds convincing. I think I'll Wikipedia your “advaita” and see wahzup.

But until I do, I suppose we should continue to use the names we designated to determine “who is speaking.”

Of course, that still may NOT convince anyone about the 'truth' of what we say (but at least we'll know who said it in this pod).

Thanks! : )
mike S

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Hey Mikewho, yes, that state must be of a form of superunity, a collapse of the particular.  For mywho part, Iwho, as a walking-around herewho, don't feel Iwho know what another walking-around herewho's state, path, experiences, meanings, necessities, travails, etc. are.  Which is interesting, as it suggests there be an irreducible particularity to the universal Who.

I love Dante's image near the end of the Divine Comedy.  At the end of the journey, when he's in the Paradiso and about to be led into the divine presence, he looks around and sees the universe, all the souls and angels and seraphins who have walked the path, and as he looks he realizes, in amazement, that even though there are millions of them, each is his or her individual self.

This individual aspect is of course something people like Da, by necessary implication, don't really speak to, which for me is fine.  On this large assembly line of life, some take up tasks here, some there.  Those, like Da, whose particular (ahem) “there” is quite “out there” have particular (ahem) gifts to give by virtue of having ventured so far down a particular (ahem) line.  I personally tend to shake off the “this is experience is ALL” aspect that can emanate from such types, and enjoy the rest.  On grumpy days I'll bitch and moan about how I in particular am not reflected in their schema, but that's my little bit of work, hey?

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Bjorn, I wasn't intending to slight your experience with Andrew, as you seem have taken some offence from my post.  I do not doubt that excellent value can be had in submitting in the manner AC evidently desired or demanded you do. 

I notice, from your profile and your Final Freedom blog, which I patiently read, that you are no longer with AC, but doing something else.  It's that “something else” that I find tends to raise its head in life—the “I now need to go elsewhere, ie, away from your path.”  It is to this that I speak in my posts above.  That focus does not diminish the value of submission for those for whom submission is appropriate.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Wow, great to hear from everyone. A lot of great points.

Okay, I think we need to discuss the idea of a guru a little bit. Sorry for the length here.

On one hand we find teachers who will say things like, “You must have a guru,” and on the other we will find people, usually seekers, saying gurus are worthless. I think there is some truth on both sides.

1) Setting aside spirituality for a moment, let's recognize that pretty much anything we learn requires a teacher most of the time. There are self-taught guitar players, like Jimi Hendrix, for example, and self-taught scholars and artists and the like. But these are really in the minority. Just about everyone has a teacher for their various endeavours. Teachers, generally speaking, are very important. We wouldn't tell our children—unless we were truly Green or unhealthy Green like Frank Zappa was in some instances—that they don't need school teachers, for example.

2) So, is spirituality (meaning meditation, evolutionary or compassionate action, high development on other lines, etc.) so radically different that we can say that here, for spirituality, we don't need teachers? I don't think it is essentially different, though we will find people who are, relatively speaking, more self-taught than others. 

3) No one—or no one who gets very far with spirituality by today's standards—starts from scratch. So let's recognize that while there may be a grain of truth to the idea that we don't need a spiritual teacher, we certainly can't make that absolute claim from a developmental perspective.

I think that people who claim that spiritual teachers are absolutely not necessary are assuming an awful lot of knowledge on the part of spiritual seekers they are, by the way, teaching. But at the very least, these seekers need to be taught that they don't need a teacher, right, because they think they do, or most of them at any rate. So right there we need a guru to convince them that they don't need a teacher. You can look at it that way. I don't entirely buy that view myself, but if it is true that people don't need spiritual teachers they evidently need to be taught that.

4) But moreover, I think people are assuming all sorts of knowledge about meditation and such that might not be there. Maybe someone learned about meditaton from books—writen by teachers or gurus—and then declare that no teachers are neccessary, when teachers were essential for whatever they have learned or attained.

5) Also, just assuming that you can learn everything you need to get started from a book—if you don't even have that and are truly starting from scratch I don't think the person will get too far—I believe it's quite likely that a book won't work for everyone. Some people don't like to read or have some issue that prevents them from reading, and some people simply prefer to learn or require learning in an intersubjective context. I would bet that it's usually males who are out there saying no one needs a teacher. For more reason than one, I would bet that women are a lot less resistant to the idea of being taught. Male tendencies are figuring big in the idea that no one needs a spiritual teacher, I would think.

6) The whole guru idea emerged way back when when most people were Red but Amber was emerging. Red—egocentricity, wild, impulsive behavior—is helped a great deal by surrendering to an Amber order that is headed by a master teacher, some kind of leader. Surrender your wild Red ways to this Amber way of life. I think it's pretty well established that that works. I think that we might also notice that, particularly in postmodern culture, there are many people who haven't quite gotten their Red impulses entirely under control. This gets us into the “Pit of Snakes” teaching once again, but we will get into that later. At any rate, some people who feel they are above a spritual order and surrendering to a spiritual order might have a bit of a shadow issue.

7) The evolution of Red to Amber aside, there are a few other reasons a person might want to surrender to a guru. Simply for state-training purposes, it might be very useful in simply getting a person to loosen their grip on control, or what they call in Big Mind “the controller.” It could be a useful step. Surrender your control to a guru, whom you trust, and see if, in meditation, you learn to surrender control as well and let yourself fall into being.

8) Then there's the additional, esoteric idea of surrendering to the guru within, to the psychic being, the evolutionary impulse, etc. and that surrendering to the guru might be helpful in this. This is really uncharted territory. It's just an experiment. Maybe it could help, I don't know. Maybe it is really not a good idea at all for that. I think at the least it could help loosen one's grip on the controller here as well—but for action now rather than resting as Being in meditation—but then there would have to be a transition to surrendering to the guru within (as problematic as that language can be). For that, a guru around could even work against that kind of work. At any rate, that's an experiment that AC is embarking on with his students, and as far as I know no one really has an answer as to how effective that is.

9) One of the hallmarks of vertical enlightenment is “not knowing” or “beginner's mind” and also humility. So people who say they already know everything, couldn't possibly have anything to learn from a teacher, are telling you that they are not all that developed along this particular line. But sometimes they are, actually, but have simply fallen into a momentary cloud of postmodern cynicism (“already knowing”), so I am not categorizing anyone as not being far along vertically. Really.  :) And once people are clear that vertical enlightenment requires a kind of openness, an open wakefullness, inquiring, beginner's mind, some people can fall into that very quickly, kind of like those few seekers who worked very hard at spiritual practice for years without good instruction and then immediately fell into “the Self” when seeing Ramana Maharshi.

10) Eckart Tolle and Andrew Cohen make the point in this discussion that teachers can save people a lot of time, and that is really worth considering.

ET: Even without a spiritual teaching or a spiritual teacher, I believe that everybody would get there eventually. But that could take time.

AC: A long time.

ET: Much longer. A spiritual teaching is there to save time. The basic message of the teaching is that you don't need any more time, you don't need any more suffering. I tell this to people who come to me: “You are ready to hear this because you are listening to it. There are still millions of people out there who are not listening to it. They still need time. But I am not talking to them. You are hearing that you don't need time anymore and you don't need to suffer anymore. You've been seeking in time and you've been seeking further suffering.” And to suddenly hear that “You don't need that anymore-for some, that can be the moment of transformation.

So the beauty of the spiritual teaching is that it saves lifetimes
of-

AC: Unnecessary suffering.

11) Finally, there is the idea of transmission, that you can get a blast of the absolute or shakti or kundalini by visiting a spiritual teacher. This certainly can happen and would likely save a person a lot of time. I wouldn't say it is absolutely necessary—if it were, how would it have happened to the first person to live it?—but again it is likely to save some time, I would think.

12) Finally, finally, there are new emergences, and old dharma, as good as it was for yesterday, won't be so complete and wonderful for today. Times change as well; cultural translations are needed; for optimal results, changing times and cultures require modified dharmas, etc.

13) Enough with the finally's—there's simply more! From a scientific perspective, we need to compare the results of our interior travels with other adepts, and not everyone is an adept. We might realize other adepts have more depth or fullness in a certain respect, and in so doing we make them our teachers, at least temporarily.

Okay, that's it. There is a place in the world for spiritual teachers and gurus. How, when, where, for whom, and for what purpose is another matter.


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

David: … pretty much anything we learn requires a teacher most of the time.

Yes.  “I” am a baton pass-off point in space and time for many a cultural good: words, theories, ideas, relations, techniques, machines—these were all given at my birth and my job is to take a few cultural goods, shuffle them, and add something new.  Why remake the wheel?

David: ... can [we] say that here, for spirituality, we don't need teachers?

I think even saying “mama” as a one-year old admits already a great amount of teaching/learning.  I don't think persons without teachers actually exist, spiritual teachers included.  Thus:

David: … no one … starts from scratch.

David: … I believe it's quite likely that a book won't work for everyone.

My guess: in a teaching context, for most people most of the time, the more personal presence and interaction with a teacher, the better.

David: … some people who feel they are above a spritual order and surrendering to a spiritual order might have a bit of a shadow issue.

No doubt.  I think there comes a time in life when surrender is essential.  Almost every spiritual teacher I've read or listened to places surrender at a very high value.  My own experience has followed this course.

David: Then there's the additional, esoteric idea of surrendering to the guru within, to the psychic being, the evolutionary impulse, etc.

This was my path, a kind of Eckhart-like surrender to what is.  Eight years ago I began a project to put my arms around the world—a stretching project, in other words, to take inside myself as part of me anything I saw including, of course, the worst and the most difficult.  This so-called project appeared in me spontaneously and paralleled a certain distaste likewise appearing regarding anything future-oriented (anything anti-here, anti-now: making a difference, improving things, preferring change, etc.).  The project ended in surrender, leaps in learning, a year of synchronicities, etc.

David: One of the hallmarks of vertical enlightenment is “not knowing” …

I'll take a categorical stand on this one: honesty in the knowing process necessarily gives due regard to not-knowing.  Not-knowing sticks to every bit of “knowledge.”  Knowing and not-knowing therefore ride together, everywhere, and imply each other in the real.

David: ... teachers can save people a lot of time …

Check.

David: … you can get a blast of the absolute … by visiting a spiritual teacher.

Check.

David: … there are new emergences …

Check.  See my comments about difference.  The emergent is by definition new, not before seen.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Setting aside spirituality for a moment, let's recognize that pretty much anything we learn requires a teacher most of the time. There are self-taught guitar players, like Jimi Hendrix, for example, and self-taught scholars and artists and the like. But these are really in the minority.

Possibly, “the minority” has detached from conventional wisdom that learning requires a teacher? I imagine teachers have as much to do with continuing that game as the student, what with all the guru perks and bennies nowadays.

Could I practice as a doctor without being taught? In many ancient cultures this was true. However, in a postmodern (litigious) society the game is played through finite rules demanding dues be paid prior to participating in the game (of course, that game is slowly winding down)

Therefore, isn't spirituality as much a victim of conventional wisdom as any other domain of  empirical learning? The difference is that we have no empirical proof that the curriculum the teacher imparts is true since “spirituality” is not an empirical science such as medicine.

Nevertheless, spirituality still falls under the same conventional wisdom as empirical science in relation to expert-as-teacher.

And what determines the teacher's expert “spiritual” status? A majority consensus of students. The students choose the teacher based on what the student must already know to be true, but chooses to 'learn' from an intermediary. In any case, it is the student all around.

My guess is that we are so deeply immersed in the guilt of being 'human' that we fail to access the archetypal knowledge that we 'carry' with us always - the truth that everyone knows but fails to actualize. Thus we need to supplicate, idolize and essentially worship other humans, those who we evaluate to be above or beyond our weak and puny self.

Any teacher that does not teach the eventual and expedient dumping of the teacher merely exemplifies a glorified ego to other's seeking such glorification.

But what I really love are the guru battles, when an “enlightened master” attacks the ideas of another “enlightened master.” Now that's taking the guru game to a higher level. (someone should organize a WWG and put 'em all in the ring).

Thanks,
mike S

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Tom: And that uniqueness, being what it is, cannot be fully mapped onto or by someone else's experience, path, structure, personality, values, development, perspective, ideas, goals, instruction, teaching, method.  In the end, and as regards my difference-the essential stamp of my unique existence and contribution-it's all over to me.  There is, for that essential element, and like Mike says above, no leader.  Nobody can integrate for me and in me my difference.

I think that's a very important point and one that definitely needs to be integrated with all the rest. Spiritual teachings will need to be modified, “tweeked” a little to suit individuals, and even then it will be another matter when they have some breakthrough and get their own understanding of it.

Of course, there is something tricky here—the desireful, fearful ego will no doubt use ideas like this to make room for itself, to see that it continues, continues to have control, etc. For example, “Well, service is all well and fine for everyone else, but, you see, I'm different because … ”

Tom: That the energy one feels in ‘betrayal' is the measure of energy activated when one gives over responsibility for one's aloneness to another.  This energy seems to say that integrating one's aloneness is so critical, so vital, that giving responsibility for integrating it to another will invite a storm that can take a lifetime to resolve.  IMO, the moment of such resolution is the very moment one agrees-innerly agrees-to integrate one's uniqueness oneself.

I think that's also a really important point, including the one I bold. It depends on who, where, for what purpose, etc. But there can be an authentic, responsibility-increasing way of surrender and the opposite, and the opposite could be a real disaster, kind of like when parents maintain obsessive control over their children, denying them the ability to cultivate individual responsbility, and then set them free in the world, perhaps at that point withdrawing support.

I think it's for this reason that the absolute surrender idea gets more problematic as we go up vertically, because, among other things, people need to get in touch of their own intuition, develop their own sense of right and wrong. It would have to be done extremely skillfully. And, to make it work in a really second- or third-tier manner, I would think the guru's own development and issues would have to be on the line and up for discussion as well.

It's for that reason that Saniel Bonder's “waking down in mutuality” makes sense to me—he developed this approach because Da was so controlling, because it was so one sided with Da—but here we couldn't forget hieararchy: even in waking down in mutuality—if it's second- or third-tier—there would have to be hieararchy: the guru would have to be deferred to on occassion, recognized generally to have more knowledge and understanding, etc. I don't know whether or not there is enough hieararchy in Saniel Bonder's work or what levels he is teaching, etc. (I haven't studied him enough to know), but he seems to add something important there.

Tom: One might from this perspective see the energies surrounding ‘abuse' incidents as friendly in this direction, and of necessarily high voltage.  Those energies hit at such a deep level they literally cannot be set aside, and force one in the direction of resolution.  My view of that resolution I've stated above.

That's interesting, too. Might bring that one back for the “pit of snakes” discussion.

I appreciate the etymology as usual.  :)


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Mike, great to see you back and chiming in!

Mike: So, essentially, you teach yourself. The “teacher” only confirms what is already known by YOU.

Yes, I think these are important perspectives to integrate. There is an inner resonance or inner recognition that's pretty interesting, as it arises in the four quadrants.


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

One additional comment—and I'm anticipating Irmeli here, :)—the guru's livelihood is tied up in being … a guru. They have a vested interest, for various reasons—narcissistic, pecuniary—in the whole guru idea. At the same time, they would know better than seekers whether a guru were necessary. But I don't think absolute statements on the need for gurus, as some make, is helpful.

Bjorn: Once I realized what the Messiah meant, what a world-transcender or Saviour, a Buddha or an Avatar implied. Anyone of us that reaches that extreme height will have to by its own nature take on the world without reservation.

I think that's an important point and a difficult one to get across. There is going beyond ego in meditation and going beyond ego in action, and you describe going beyond ego in action here.

e: What more needs to be known and practiced?

Wasn't it Muhamed who said, “The way is always unfolding?” Isn't there always refinement to make? Is there an endpoint in dharma, a “final dharma,” so to speak? Da said he was not only the greatest teacher of all times past and present but of all times to come as well—is there a dharma like that? Is there a dharma that serves not only for all times past and present but for all the future as well? Wouldn't dharma be something that is ever evolving?

Blessings to all,

David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Just a little more on the inner-resonance idea (I will respond later, Tom)—Ken has often said things like, “You can't speak to the voice of Turquoise if the person is Amber.” So Turquoise is not going to resonate with Amber; in fact at times Amber might have a negative reaction to it, even though it is higher on the spiral. So Amber can't know Turquoise. Amber has to learn Orange (from other people primarily), and then Green, etc. But with state training that mutual resonance, according to AQAL, can take place at most stages.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Great read David,

Genuine gurus, dead or alive, have the love/power to affect your spirit. Sri sri Anandamayi Ma (then already deceased) appeared to me one night, a darshan of immense proportions. Their spirit lives on. If Jesus' wasn't alive Christianity would soon die. There are many examples of dead gurus appearing to students and aspirants alike.

Like Dante, we can recognize ourselves in each-other, the differences being the abundance of creation. Because we see this beautiful truth we also recognize the one and only Person behind it all. The unity that you are. In India they call him Maha Purusha. We, being like broken scattered pieces of glass, in all sizes and shapes, reflecting his likeness. His body stretches across the vastness of space.

My reason to join my church a year after leaving AC was mainly to meet, share and commune with other people interested in the spirit. My Path being the one beneath my feet, whether inside or outside of any organization or temple, castle or hut.

Lots of love,

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Tom, no offense taken. I enjoy what you say.

Mike, I had a look myself for Advaita on wikipedia, and it's so good. The advaita I often refer to is a simplified western take on it; that all is the Absolute and there is no distinctions to be made. Andrew Cohen had a big bone to pick with his guru Poonja ji about this very point. The contention being in simplified terms; it doesn't matter what you do verses it does matter what you do.

A wonderful book on Advaita by Sri Sankaracarya, is Viveka Cudamani - the crest jewel of wisdom. This has a different translator than the one I got. Hope it is up to the job.

Bjorn

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Wow, fantastico further developments. Amazing reading alright. I will get into that later.

Bjorn, this is that backtrack from your post way up there in:
 
 

Bjorn: It's in your face every time you would meet him; he would know and I would know the real state of affairs. So this internal tug of war serves as a relentless reminder that there is yet more to give. And it won't ease up until you either run away or faced it completely and surrendered your soul.

This is a very important point; unless your teacher/guru himself has gone through this pivotal giving up of self to his own Guru he is in no position to teach it to his students.

Poignant points Bjorn, very much so. That first point I've highlighted is interesting isn't it. I think a good teacher holds us to our very highest potentiality, what we know we are when the diamond is polished. I think that point reflects the radical self honesty needed to make any progress. And your second point: unless you're teacher/guru himself has gone through this pivotal giving up of self - he is in no position to teach - is a massive point isn't it. I think when you stumble upon gems throughout your life like this, with teachers that open you up beyond recognition - there is no mistaking it - that process that has gone before them, and which is taking place within you.

Because most self-proclaimed teachers has not given themselves up unconditionally to a master teacher they never ask their students to surrender, and they have no understanding of such an event, and are most likely to dismiss any such requirements. Thereby diluting the promise inherent in true teachings.

I hear that loud and clear. Yes, I think Irmeli and I got a touch into this earlier on - about the 'promise' of enlightenment. And the bottomline with the addition of this is that - the teachings speak for themselves - they do there own job, when they aren't diluted - You drink milk, you pay homage to the cow, you don't usually hale the delivery boy (bizarre analogy!) by the likes of a teacher who really doesn't know what they are going on about.

Love caters for all alike, but in the end there must be surrender. If we are humble it might not need to take long but if our pride is important to us we might have to struggle a long long time (like I had to).

Yes, pride is one of the most underestimated barriers we are up against. It's like brick wall; you don't know is there until you slam head first into it. It hurts. People like to be wrapped up in cotton wool.

If we are invested in this life it will take a lot of soul searching to come to the point of being willing to give it all up. It is not easy.

I agree. I am working this one out with my every waking breath. And sleeping breath come to think of it. There's no end is there. That's the point.

But anyone with a real zest for understanding ego-death will have to, sooner or later, go all the way. And once you do, heavens doors will open and you will know without a shadow of doubt that you have come to the end of yourself.

The word: 'relief' in neon capital letters springs to mind.

a greater expression of the spirit that is impossible to achieve solely on your own. A community that is evolving in time, grows and matures as it is engaged.
So, yes, it's complicated.

I think the problem people are up against, is that they don't believe this. The extent of the ‘we' factor. I guess we are all still carving this one out. People think of the 'we' aspect of their spiritual life - they may think of sangha or whatnot. This is a big complicated area, I agree.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Hi Lisa,
There is an end to final surrender, in the sense once you give it all up, finally when you hand over your life (and all that belongs to it) you will know it because it will be a grand event in your spirit. Affirmations and revelations will open like a book and grant you insights never before seen.
This does not mean that your everyday concerns and struggles ends, but there is a edge that has been taken away. The back of the ego has been broken and lacks any real power to affect you as it used to do. Death has lost its sting. You are free. Once you find yourself in a dire situation again there is always a way out; your surrender always allows you to give up your hold. Nothing sticks anymore.

In my case, I was lucky to have Andrew in front of me as I knew I couldn't fool him, pretending I've surrendered. That's one of the good things to have a living teacher as you both will know when a real giving up happens. It can't be mistaken. Maybe we can surrender directly to God or the Absolute but maybe we fool ourselves. Surrender to Jesus has power as it relies on your faith. You trust him. Trusting Andrew is what made it possible for me to surrender to him. And I only trusted him after I realized that he wanted nothing but me to be free.

and I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever…

Relief, yes, but also with a vast future ahead. Wide open and free.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Irmeli, I have really enjoyed hearing about your experience with the TM movement and all those stories. Surely, that is one of the classic cases of gurus gone wild!

The story about the million-dollar enlightenment class is really amazing. I wonder who would buy into that.

I have some insight into how a person could buy into that, having spent more money than I thought I should on certain events, or stretching my financial means to the point of uncertainty to be able to do certain things (and feeling at the same time that stretching into uncertainty was a good spiritual practice in and of itself, though of course it wouldn't always be).

I suppose if you have that much money it's just the same principle on a larger scale, but still …

On that note, there was one quote from the Dzongsar Rinpoche interview I left out (the first sentence I quoted before):

Dzongsar: “If people think a teacher should shave his head, wear something maroon, walk gently, eat only vegetarian food, be so-called serene, then I'm very tempted to do that. Rajneesh had the guts to have ninety-three Rolls Royces. I call it guts. One Rolls Royce is one thing. Even two or three—but ninety-three is guts! And I don't have the guts, the confidence. I like Rajneesh very much. I like him much better than Krishnamurti. Many of his words are quite good, and I can see why the Westerners would like him.”

That is funny, but I am not sure Dzonsgar is understanding Rajneesh very well. Rajneesh is another guru gone wild, certainly. I think he probably also offerred some good things. Maybe a Rajneesh thread is somewhere on the horizon.  :) If you are interested in him, feel free, because I don't know much about him other than his wild meditation dances and a few stories. I think Dzongsar is probably not seeing structures as well as he might, but he's right: it took a certain amount of guts to aquire 93 Rolls Royces!  :)


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

e: Just sit down shut up and see where you get hung up.

I do think that this is an important perspective as well. I believe Shunryu Suzuki, in Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind, says something like, “Just sit there and you will realize your true nature.” Meaning that that was the most important thing, just sitting there, and words didn't matter that much. You can't think your way into it. Just sit there. But of course he is just talking about state-training in that moment (and from a Zen perspective).

With regard to meditation, though, sitting there, or inquiring there perhaps, would be the primary thing. Any thoughts or conceptions about it don't mean nearly as much as an understanding of it from personal experience. But what is happening on a conceptual level will undoubtedly influence the outcome, yes?


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

But of course he is just talking about state-training in that moment (and from a Zen perspective).

You keep saying this. How do you think the state becomes a stage? The other thing you fail to re-cognize is you are in a transient waking state right now consisting of nothing but “moments”. Memory strings them together like a necklace which you hang around your neck and adorn yourself with. If the string that holds your identity in place breaks, the memories fall to the ground like leaves in autumn leaving only a bare tree against a grey sky.

What is evolving in this waking state is our delusion. (Hopefully) It gets less and less till it's gone. So we go to a teacher in hopes of gaining and we find out it is about losing. Eventually you lose the need for an embodied teacher and Sangha turns out to be everyone and Dharma is everywhere and nowhere in particular.

–

Parenthetically, a psychologist friend of an online friend who swam in these water's said there were 2 kinds of seekers, those that were abused and those that were abandoned as children. The abused
tended to gravitate towards Buddhism with it's emphasis on suffering. The abandoned tended to gravitate towards Self with it's emphasis on Brahma (big daddy in the sky). So all this “spiritual”
seeking may just be the attempt at healing the wounds form childhood. You have to admit, we are a strange bunch.

So are all you (ex)Guru lovers looking for a parent that abandoned you in some way? Maybe something to contemplate. Maybe some folks feel having any sort of Da(d) is better than no Da(d).

peac e

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Tom: Yes.  “I” am a baton pass-off point in space and time for many a cultural good: words, theories, ideas, relations, techniques, machines-these were all given at my birth and my job is to take a few cultural goods, shuffle them, and add something new.  Why remake the wheel?

Very nicely put, Tom—“a baton pass-off point in space and time.” When our parents teach us how to speak, for example, they are pouring thousands of years of evolution (billions actually) into our minds. And the same with rationalization and such. If the culture can bring you up to, say, Orange or Green before you even know what's going on, then you can grab the baton and move up to Teal. But if the culture doesn't do that for you, if you're a wolf boy, raised by wolves and hunting your own mice and quail for survival (operating on instinctual Infrared), you'll have a hard time even getting to Magenta.

Tom: This so-called project appeared in me spontaneously and paralleled a certain distaste likewise appearing regarding anything future-oriented (anything anti-here, anti-now: making a difference, improving things, preferring change, etc.). 

How do you view things that are future-oriented now?

Also, I am remembering you used a stream metaphor earlier—so often the deeper states are regarded as a “field of awarness,” but do you think, while there is still validity to that, that a stream metaphor would also be helpful, to indicate the dynamic, evolutionary aspect of it?

David: One of the hallmarks of vertical enlightenment is “not knowing” …

Tom: I'll take a categorical stand on this one: honesty in the knowing process necessarily gives due regard to not-knowing.  Not-knowing sticks to every bit of “knowledge.”  Knowing and not-knowing therefore ride together, everywhere, and imply each other in the real.

I think that's a good way to look at those things. I was referring to something a little different, though, the interplay between what I have been calling “Unknowing” and psychic “Knowing.” Here is what I posted about that on the “Intution” thread:

  *   *   *

unknowing-an infant doesn't know anything, doesn't know how to tie his or her shoe, his or her name, anything. There is the evolutionary intelligence there on an instinctual level; it knows that things are going well when it has something to suck on and nourishing liquid coming out, but as an individual he or she doesn't know anything. He or she can't even indviduate as an individual yet.

knowing-the child learns his or her name, how to tie his or her shoe, the alphabet. This kind of small “k” knowing can continue up to the PHD level. In fact, a person could have 3,000 PHDs in every discipline there is and then some, in several different languages, and still be in small “k” knowing.

Unknowing-eventually the person, whether they have earned a PHD or not, gets disenchanted with that small “k” knowing. They really want to Know something. But before that they have to realize and understand that really don't Know anything yet. They have to be open, inquiring, curious-beginner's mind. The beginner doesn't Know anything, and yet this kind of beginner's mind is quite different than the mind of an infant and leads to Knowing.

Knowing-out of that sea of Unknowing there can come the psychic Knowing. There is a surety in that. A certainty in that. It is solid ground, more solid than the small “k” knowledge of 3,000 PHDs, though those PHDs would be a very helpful, enhancing tool for the psychic Knowing. So one can get a sense for this psychic Knowing. It doesn't necessarily mean all will be wonderful for the ego-the psychic after all is trying to take full control of the vehicle and just might leave the ego hanging out to dry, twisting in the wind sometimes-but there is surety in it nevertheless.

Relative understandings, “knowings,” still can affect the course of “Knowing,” however. For example, if you don't understand Chinese and you are dropped into rural China, your psychic Knowing would not be able to take you as far or as well as it could if you understood Chinese.

*  *  *

So that just charts out a progression from infantile “unknowing” to psychic “Knowing.” What you are saying I think is also valid, and I think the balance of the two—“knowing” and “unknowing”— as they arise in “the real” would be very important all the way up and down the spiral. I'm not seeing quite how to integrate the two perspectives right now. Maybe they just sort of have to sit side by side as some do.


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Thank you very much, Bjorn. I also enjoyed your peaceful, poetic post.

That sounds like quite a vision about Anandamayi Ma. I wonder if some types are more likely to have visions like that and other types more likely to hear Divine sounds, etc. I remember Andrew posted about a vision of Poonja, and Lama Surya Das said he saw the Buddha once, but I think he was on mushrooms, too.  :)

I personally wouldn't mind a visitation from Jesus. I think it would be pretty cool to see what he looked like. Wouldn't that blow you away? I think Mick felt the same way (it's the second song, which starts at about 3:25,  but the first one's great, too).


~David

 

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Bjorn: Love caters for all alike, but in the end there must be surrender. If we are humble it might not need to take long but if our pride is important to us we might have to struggle a long long time (like I had to).

Lisa: Yes, pride is one of the most underestimated barriers we are up against. It's like brick wall; you don't know is there until you slam head first into it. It hurts. People like to be wrapped up in cotton wool.

Yes, I think pride is a good thing to contemplate as well. AC and Dzongsar discussed it in the interview I have been quoting:

COHEN: In the movie, you also spoke about how the guru crushes people's pride, as the means to purify them of ego motivations and attachment.

DZONGSAR: Yes, because pride is thinking something that is not necessarily you. For instance, if I asked you, “Are you a man?” you would say, “Yes.” That is confidence, not pride. Now, if I ask, “Are you a superman?” and you say, “Yes,” that may be pride because “super” is only an adjective, and is not imputed. Pride, ego, and ignorance are all synonymous.


AC also has a section in his book Enlightenment Is a Secret about pride and humility. Here is one about pride:

Pride is Vicious

Pride is Vicous. Pride is the most vicious enemy for those who claim they want to be Enlightened in this birth. If you want to be Enlightened in this birth then give pride the highest priority for you attention, because pride is one of the most difficult obstacles to Enlightenment.

Equate pride with whatever you imagine ego to be. Pride and ego are the same thing. Pride is the enemy if you want to be free because it is pride that causes you to betray your deepest longing for Liberation.

Pride has a very ugly face. Pride is based on the idea that you know something. When you think you know something you feel special, and when you feel special you are separate. Ideas of specialness or superiority will separate you from what you claim to want the most. As long as there are any ideas, gross or subtle, of specialness that are being cherished, you are sowing the very same seeds of violence and aggression that the whole human race is lost in.

Even for those who are Enlightened pride is a difficult obstacle to perfection.




~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

mike S: Could I practice as a doctor without being taught? In many ancient cultures this was true.

I think this was true for the very first doctors, thousands of years ago. Today, a person, a real medical genius, might come upon some new healing art, but even then that person would have been given years of schooling (learning how to speak and write and interact in the world, for example) and most likely studied some of the healing disciplines as well.

The great genius of homeopathy, Samuel Hahnemann, didn't have anyone teaching him homeopathy; that is true. But he did have people teaching him language, how to reason, and he spent a lot of time studying the medicine of the day before he hit upon homeopathy. In fact, he was researching the medicine of indigenous South Americans when he discovered the basic principles of homeopathy.

So, we go back to the wolf-boy scenario I brought up earlier: sure, the wolf boy might have some instinctual knowledge of how to heal himself and his wolf family. He might even be able to offer his wolf brother and sisters some kind of healing they couldn't provide for themselves. This instinctual knowledge (Infrared) might develop over his lifetime, but I doubt it would develop close to a point where it would be useful in Red, Amber, Orange, or Green civilizations. Perhaps, at the very most, he could discover some wild berry that was good for some ailment that no one else had discovered, but how would he be able to communicate this to someone? They would have to observe him, but probably it would take a lot before he would let them observe him. They would probably have to capture him first.

mike S: However, in a postmodern (litigious) society the game is played through finite rules demanding dues be paid prior to participating in the game.

Occassionally these rules prevent some good medicine from coming through. For example, most homepathists in the U.S. have been afraid of using remedies made from cannabis or opium out of fear of the Drug War authorities. That is absurd, because there isn't even a molecule of the material substance in these remedies, but try telling that to the Bush administration.

However, these rules do an awful lot of good, too. There are an awful lot of quaks and charlatans out there who just want people's money, some drug companies want the same thing, regardless of the consequences to people who use their drugs. Regulation, generally speaking, is a postive emegence.

mike S: Therefore, isn't spirituality as much a victim of conventional wisdom as any other domain of  empirical learning? The difference is that we have no empirical proof that the curriculum the teacher imparts is true since “spirituality” is not an empirical science such as medicine.

Well, I think from an AQAL perspective empiricism is just one methodology, not the methodology by which all others are judged. But growing up in an Orange, materialist society like most of us, we are often left with just that impression, that empiricism is the gold standard of science. Ken Wilber touched on this a little in an interview with Salon.com:

Salon: What about Karl Popper's objection: If you can't disprove something, then it's not science. Can you disprove the effects of meditation? How far can you take this scientific analogy when you're talking about a contemplative practice?

KW: Pretty far, I think. These meditative disciplines have been passed down for hundreds of years, sometimes thousands of years. Much like judo, there are actual techniques that you can learn and pass on. In Zen, you have the practice of zazen. You have to sit and count your breath for up to an hour and concentrate on an object for at least five minutes without losing track. The average American adult can do it for 18 seconds. Then you have the data, what's called satori. Once you train your mind and look into your interior, you investigate the actual nature and structure of your interior consciousness. If you do this intensely enough, you'll get a profound aha experience, a profound awakening. And that satori is then checked with others who've done this practice.

Salon: But I doubt many scientists would accept this as proof of science because, ultimately, people are left to describe their own experiences. You can't measure this with any conventional scientific instruments.

KW: You move in the realm of phenomenology. And you either accept phenomenology or you don't. This also applies to psychoanalysis. You get the same complaints that it's not real science, that you can't prove it. Well, fine, but then you can't prove any interior experience you're having. You can't prove you're loving your wife, you can't prove you're happy. Forget all of that, it's not real. If that's the mind-set you have, nobody's going to convince you otherwise. It really comes down to whether there are interior sciences. These interior sciences use the same principles as the exterior sciences. If you define science as based on sensory experience, then these interior endeavors are not science. But if you define science as based on experience, then these interior ones are.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Thank you very much for posting the extra stuff on pride, David.

This bit:

Ideas of specialness or superiority will separate you from what you claim to want the most. As long as there are any ideas, gross or subtle, of specialness that are being cherished, you are sowing the very same seeds of violence and aggression that the whole human race is lost in.

Particularly brings that home. Very important contemplation.

Lisa

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

There has been really great dialogues and posts on this thread. Reading through them has been sheer bliss to me!

Here is one more perspective on this topic of gurus ending up defaming themselves in spite of their initially good intentions.

Gopi Krishna on Kundalini Energy:

”The first experience of a sudden awakening of the power is that of a raging psychic storm, as if a tornado has been let loose in the system which, if not handled with an iron grip on the mind, can drive one crazy with its unimaginable violence.”

“In my contact with the transcendental world to which I slowly gained entry, after the awakening, I am but a child, constantly wondering at what I perceive, trying to pick up the alphabet of a language more difficult than any knowledge of the physical universe ever gained.”

“It is a great mistake to suppose that entry to the transcendental state of consciousness can make one infallible, all-wise and all-knowing.”

“I do not feel myself to be superior in any way to my fellow human beings. There is no idea of purity or chastity, virtue or saintliness in my mind to inflate my ego.”

“Entry to transhuman consciousness highly adds to the responsibilities of man. We have gained the awareness now of the potentialities of the intellect and the almost limitless power it can exercise both for destructive and constructive purposes.”

“But how can Nature allow man to win this sovereign position unless he has also gained the capability to shoulder the highly increased responsibility in a befitting manner, and not to abuse the almost unlimited powers gained? This is the reason why in every case of the awakening of the evolutionary mechanism secret devices in the brain come into play to mold the individual towards a state of mind where possibility of abuse of psychic power is eliminated. The desire for self-reform is the first sign of the activity of this dormant psycho-physiological mechanism. This is also reason why almost all those who posses psychic talents are never capable to control the power, or to exhibit them at their own will and choice, or often even remain alert or conscious when the phenomena come to pass.”

Irmeli

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

David: ... the absolute surrender idea gets more problematic as we go up vertically, because, among other things, people need to get in touch of their own intuition, develop their own sense of right and wrong.

Surrender might be viewed as something of a catch-word denoting a time when a certain more or less pervasive ego-less perspective came into one's life.  But the presence of that perspective does not eliminate one's context, for sure, which requires constant work, as you imply, David.

David: When our parents teach us how to speak, for example, they are pouring thousands of years of evolution (billions actually) into our minds.

… which minds are themselves but the present incarnation of those billions of years of evolution.  The “I” in this mix is all that.  The “I” literally cannot be confined to any given “thing,” because as the Buddhists like to say, every thing is constructed (ie, is a product of that which it is not being what it is, and not otherwise, as it could be).  Hence the particular “I”—this me-place in evolutionary history—is indistinguishable from no-thing.  No matter how you slice the cake.

David: So that just charts out a progression from infantile “unknowing” to psychic “Knowing.” What you are saying I think is also valid, and I think the balance of the two—“knowing” and “unknowing”— as they arise in “the real” would be very important all the way up and down the spiral. I'm not seeing quite how to integrate the two perspectives right now.

Nice post, David.  I think our different wordings regarding knowing and unknowing arise from the same perspective.  Like you say, from the sea of Unknowing arises Knowing: the two are indissolubly linked. “Unknowing” implies the background of all that is known (the PhD), Unknowing knows the unfathomable sea from which PhD knowing is drawn, and it is a form of knowing that I don't know in the face of that sea.  The knowledge dance, one could say.

Irmeli, your bolded quote is bang on.  Increased development implies increased care and responsibility.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Great to bring in Gopi Krishna, Irmeli. I've always found him a really interesting voice. By the way, I just did a little googling of him and found someone referring to a “model” of his and comparing it to Aurobindo's model. Do you know anything about this?

GK: It is a great mistake to suppose that entry to the transcendental state of consciousness can make one infallible, all-wise and all-knowing.

Yes, I think that's very important. The ego/enlightenment model, the Zhaozhou-was-suddenly-enlightened model doesn't really work. I think that idea, though, is still pretty pervasive.


GK:  But how can Nature allow man to win this sovereign position unless he has also gained the capability to shoulder the highly increased responsibility in a befitting manner, and not to abuse the almost unlimited powers gained? This is the reason why in every case of the awakening of the evolutionary mechanism secret devices in the brain come into play to mold the individual towards a state of mind where possibility of abuse of psychic power is eliminated.

Yes, I like this, too. We might highlight that he is talking about “the awakening of hte evolutionary mechanism” here—I believe he is referring to the “psychic being” rather than Brahmin or emptiness.

GK: The desire for self-reform is the first sign of the activity of this dormant psycho-physiological mechanism. This is also reason why almost all those who posses psychic talents are never capable to control the power, or to exhibit them at their own will and choice, or often even remain alert or conscious when the phenomena come to pass.”

I think this is good, too—until the last clause: “or often even remain alert or conscious” doesn't sound evolutionary.

GK: The first experience of a sudden awakening of the power is that of a raging psychic storm, as if a tornado has been let loose in the system which, if not handled with an iron grip on the mind, can drive one crazy with its unimaginable violence.

I was very tempted to get into the “pit of snakes” here! But I am not entirely sure that that is what Gopi Krishna is referring to. He did talk about a heightened day-to-day anxiety and fear, but I don't know that he really discussed other emotions very much, and the pit of snakes covers them all. Did he talk about other emotions? I haven't heard him discussing his lust or anger, for example.  At any rate, we should probably tie up a few sub threads first …


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

David: Great to bring in Gopi Krishna, Irmeli. I've always found him a really interesting voice. By the way, I just did a little googling of him and found someone referring to a “model” of his and comparing it to Aurobindo's model. Do you know anything about this?

No, I found this from my old archives. I did years ago stumble on these quotes in some paper about Gopi Krishna, his thinking and life.  At that time kundalini energy had just started to flow on a new much more powerful gear through my body. I felt strong resonance with these quotes and wrote them down for myself. Otherwise I'm not familiar with the work of GK.

GK: It is a great mistake to suppose that entry to the transcendental state of consciousness can make one infallible, all-wise and all-knowing.

David:Yes, I think that's very important. The ego/enlightenment model, the Zhaozhou-was-suddenly-enlightened model doesn't really work. I think that idea, though, is still pretty pervasive.

Maharishi considered himself to be enlightened. His idea of enlightenment was of this infallible, all-wise and all-knowing type. This was made clear to every disciple. Every critical thought of him, was a sign of one's own less than enlightened stage. By criticizing him a disciple jeopardized one's own  enlightenment. Himself he saw to be completely pure and infallible. According to him a person, who had gained perfect enlightenment as he had, was beyond good and evil. If he did something that was considered as immoral, it was because the world was immoral, and he was just innocently a reflection of it. He disowned those issues, and hence felt hardly any responsibility for the less good results of his actions. The good results he owned fully and claimed to be his accomplishments, even if they were mostly created by those working under him.

In the structure described above the need to control others and have power over them is still on the side of subject, embedded in the “I”. It is not something a person, a guru has, or can look at in his mind. It is who he is. This kind of person has not evolved interpersonally to mutuality, to a capacity to be in a dialogue with others. ( Here I'm using concepts adopted from 'Evolving Self' by Robert Kegan)

Maharishi was cognitively brilliant, and considered himself a great reformer of Hindu tradition, but  in this aspect he was very traditional, and could not see the severe defect or arrest in his personal development. He did not let anyone close to him who would criticize his approach in this respect. Regrettably he was not the only eastern guru suffering from this problem. The traditional amber interpretation of enlightenment has made it very difficult for a guru coming from eastern tradition,  or drawing his understanding from it, not to fall in this pitfall.
 
GK:  But how can Nature allow man to win this sovereign position unless he has also gained the capability to shoulder the highly increased responsibility in a befitting manner, and not to abuse the almost unlimited powers gained? This is the reason why in every case of the awakening of the evolutionary mechanism secret devices in the brain come into play to mold the individual towards a state of mind where possibility of abuse of psychic power is eliminated.

David:Yes, I like this, too. We might highlight that he is talking about “the awakening of the evolutionary mechanism” here—I believe he is referring to the “psychic being” rather than Brahmin or emptiness.

Irmeli: GK talks here in the context of kundalini energy. It is not the emptiness or ground of being. I consider kundalini in its essence being  the evolutionary force.

GK: The desire for self-reform is the first sign of the activity of this dormant psycho-physiological mechanism. This is also reason why almost all those who posses psychic talents are never capable to control the power, or to exhibit them at their own will and choice, or often even remain alert or conscious when the phenomena come to pass.”

David:I think this is good, too—until the last clause: “or often even remain alert or conscious” doesn't sound evolutionary.

I agree.

GK: The first experience of a sudden awakening of the power is that of a raging psychic storm, as if a tornado has been let loose in the system which, if not handled with an iron grip on the mind, can drive one crazy with its unimaginable violence.

David:I was very tempted to get into the “pit of snakes” here! But I am not entirely sure that that is what Gopi Krishna is referring to. He did talk about a heightened day-to-day anxiety and fear, but I don't know that he really discussed other emotions very much, and the pit of snakes covers them all. Did he talk about other emotions? I haven't heard him discussing his lust or anger, for example.  At any rate, we should probably tie up a few sub threads first.

 This “ pit of snakes” metaphor is new to me. It is actually a pretty good description for some internal processes I have gone through. These inner lands are filled with temptations that lead to hidden pitfalls.

GK talks here about the need of an iron grip of mind. If GK means  using the mind for controlling the emerging ideas and thoughts with iron grip, this has not been my approach or path. My natural approach has been rather grounding myself firmly in being under intense internal whirlwind.

When I'm firmly grounded in being, the ideas, thoughts and sensations just flow through, they don't stick. There is no need to control them. It is just the manifold of the manifest world expressing itself. Or it is different perspectives presenting themselves. This does not mean they are equal, and that I don't make value judgments  among them. I do. And I work with those issues that activate emotional stirring in me. This way intense kundalini processes become quite manageable, and even intensely blissful.

I agree with GK that kundalini is a tremendous cosmic force. I claim that it connects a person to the collective subconsciousness of humanity. There is plenty of dirty and heavy stuff there. To be able to successfully  deal with this opening, one has to be willing to work with that heavy stuff as one's own.

 If the door to kundalini energy opens up, and there is not enough structures or stages  available to appropriately work with the stuff that starts to pour out, I suppose rapid regression starts to appear in the person.This is one possible explanation to the regression of many 'enlightened' gurus.

 Kundalini is a powerful evolutionary force with directionality. It is never stagnant. If that force cannot be used to evolution through the stages, then it turns to regression.

I do not know how GK worked with the issues kundalini activated in him.

Irmeli

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Tom:  … which minds are themselves but the present incarnation of those billions of years of evolution.  The “I” in this mix is all that.  The “I” literally cannot be confined to any given “thing,” because as the Buddhists like to say, every thing is constructed (ie, is a product of that which it is not being what it is, and not otherwise, as it could be).  Hence the particular “I”—this me-place in evolutionary history—is indistinguishable from no-thing.  No matter how you slice the cake.

It occurred to me today more than ever that the idea of dependent origination and the idea of the evolutionary context really go hand in hand. Don't they? In fact I don't think, the way I am seeing it right now, that you could really get one without getting the other as well.


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Yes, I think evolution and dependent origination are the same thing.  “I came from not me” (my parents, my environment, my line of ancestry—in essence, my conditioning) = dependent origination.  Another way of saying this is something Bohm has said, which is 'each thing is as all the others are.'  Evolution and dependent origination = that statement in-movement (that be a statement of what history is).

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Here is a little more about dependent origination.  First dependence.  Any thing is as it is only because myriad conditions (infinite conditions, actually, which I’ll illustrate below) are what they are.  To illustrate with an easy example, the thing called my body is only as it is because heat is as it is outside me.  Increase that heat and my cells and molecules dissolve to gas and fly away—“I” disappear.  Increase the heat further and those molecules lose their moleculeness and dissolve to atoms.

So I and this “thing” outside me called heat are not two.  Even in this simple example, “I” depends on—ie, cannot be defined except by specifying—what is not-I.  The same holds for the heat: it is what it is only under conditions external to it.  We might call “dependence” in the manner here described spacial dependence.

Now consider origination.  If you ask, where did the heat come from that holds me as me?  The answer, of course, is the sun (currently augmented by my parabolic electric heater).  The sun, for its part, has its own origination: it came from matter collected from the death of other suns, and from hydrogen and helium floating around in the vicinity of where it became a sun.  Those bits of matter themselves originated from something earlier, and on and on back to the big bang, or whatever that was.

Origination might be called temporal dependence: each thing is an appearance within an overall dependent movement called history or causation.

Note that for both spacial and temporal dependence, the thingness of things traces what might be called a soft boundary.  Thus considering spacial dependence in the first paragraph above, “I” is first presented as different from “heat,” but with a little further analysis, that differentiation breaks down.  Saying “I” in the differentiated sense is thus but a definition (a “finition,” or limitation) valid for only limited purposes.  But between “I” and “heat” there is no real boundary or limitation.

Temporal dependence (“origination”) can be similarly analyzed: “I” and every other thing trace back, in a chain of causation, to the big bang, or whatever that was, such that but for that causation in time, no “I,” no any other thing.

An interesting aspect of the movement generated by this analysis is that each “thing” implies that which it is not ad infinitum.  This movement can be stated in the first instance as: each this implies a that, and each that is but a this implying yet another that, ad infinitum.  But given dependent origination, each “this” is not “this” but for “that,” in fact is that, and thus implies the all (ie, this implies and is that ad infinitum).  Accordingly, thisness—my ego, if you will—doesn’t exist: it is always already dissolved in the all, and its appearance is that all in some sort of hereness that implies the infinite.  The all, for its part, is not a “this.”  If the all were a this, the all would imply a that and would not be the all.  The all is therefore nothingness.  Hence, thing and nothing cannot be separated: they are one thing (= they are one thing = they are one thing = not two = non-dual =        ).

Thisness—dependent origination—is thus the finiting play of the infinite, and I am that.  : )

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Further to my post above, here is a small quote from Tarthang Tulku I nabbed from another pod and which expresses, I think, the sense I was wanting to convey:

“We can be guided by a vision of the whole inseparable from the perfect immediacy of the emerging instant.”

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Tom:  … which minds are themselves but the present incarnation of those billions of years of evolution.  The “I” in this mix is all that.  The “I” literally cannot be confined to any given “thing,” because as the Buddhists like to say, every thing is constructed (ie, is a product of that which it is not being what it is, and not otherwise, as it could be).  Hence the particular “I”-this me-place in evolutionary history-is indistinguishable from no-thing.  No matter how you slice the cake.

David : It occurred to me today more than ever that the idea of dependent origination and the idea of the evolutionary context really go hand in hand. Don't they? In fact I don't think, the way I am seeing it right now, that you could really get one without getting the other as well.


Hallelujah!! Praise Jah!! Thought I would never see the day!!! :-)))

peac e

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

David: But of course he is just talking about state-training in that moment (and from a Zen perspective).

e: You keep saying this. How do you think the state becomes a stage?

Partially by state-training. That's crucial. But also by a shift in motivation (acting not from the personal self anymore but from “emptiness”), a seeing of more perspectives, an evolved ethic, etc. State training only covers part of this.

 e: What is evolving in this waking state is our delusion. (Hopefully) It gets less and less till it's gone.

That's one perspective on it. Another perspective is that things have evolved and are evolving.

For example, our mode of gathering food has evolved. 40,000 years ago we were all in a little band together on the Serengetti going after antelope and such, running away from tigers and hippos. There was no time for meditation.

Now we buy our food in the supermarket, have the police to protect us. We've pretty much done away with all the bear and cougar in Illinois, so we don't have to worry about them. If a cougar finds its way in like it did a few months ago, we have half the police force out there with guns drawn to make sure he doesn't eat us. This gives us time for meditation and related pursuits.

With further evolution, we will have even more time for meditation and spiritual pursuits. Better conditions for the liberation of all sentient beings.

e: Parenthetically, a psychologist friend of an online friend who swam in these water's said there were 2 kinds of seekers, those that were abused and those that were abandoned as children. The abused tended to gravitate towards Buddhism with it's emphasis on suffering. The abandoned tended to gravitate towards Self with it's emphasis on Brahma (big daddy in the sky).

That's interesting. I think there might be something to that. Certainly some kind of typology is at work. Also, the search for approval figures pretty big in these things—put someone on a pedestal and then seek their approval. I don't think the whole thing can be reduced to that, though.

Also, is there no guru adoration in Buddhism? Have you seen Words of My Perfect Teacher, for example, and seen how they relate to Dzsongar? I don't think it's very different from the way students of other traditions relate to their teachers. As far as I can see, the guru tradition is as alive in Buddhism as it is anywhere else.


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

What's wrong with a little adoration?

When we under-stand, 
we will look up upon…

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

When we  look up upon, we will by necessity also look down on somebody. Often it is some aspect of ourselves we look down on and deny.

There is nothing wrong in adoration as it spontaneously appears. The aim of our evolution is however to become aware of the energetic structures or motives that uphold our behavioral patterns.

Irmeli

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

David: But of course he is just talking about state-training in that moment (and from a Zen perspective).

e: You keep saying this. How do you think the state becomes a stage?

David : Partially by state-training. That's crucial. But also by a shift in motivation (acting not from the personal self anymore but from “emptiness”), a seeing of more perspectives, an evolved ethic, etc. State training only covers part of this.

Yeah the most crucial part. However, emptiness is not “state training”.

–

David:  Also, is there no guru adoration in Buddhism? Have you seen Words of My Perfect Teacher, for example, and seen how they relate to Dzsongar? I don't think it's very different from the way students of other traditions relate to their teachers. As far as I can see, the guru tradition is as alive in Buddhism as it is anywhere else.

Buddhism is a big net. Regarding Tibetan Buddhism: In some circles it is considered Hindu Buddhism for your reasons stated above plus others.

peac e

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Irmeli, I do like what you say. 

Irmeli: The traditional amber interpretation of enlightenment has made it very difficult for a guru coming from eastern tradition, or drawing his understanding from it, not to fall in this pitfall.

That interpretation, from my perspective, is a bit of a stick in the mud for the fixity it exudes.  Of course, I understand that Eastern formulations of “enlightenment” generally predate the scientific discovery of evolution, but this seemingly hasn't stopped modern practitioners from wholeheartedly endorsing a very fixed notion of enlightenment.

Even the term enlightenment denotes fixity.  The “-ment” suffix, for its part, converts a verb into a noun and connotes a fixed state, reflected in its definition, “the result or product of an action.”  I propose “enlightening” as an interim replacement, such that inner work of such and such a character will be seen to 'lighten' as on a continuum that, for its part, is open ended.

Evolutionarily speaking, the unity state of awareness that characterizes this enlightening process itself moves and evolves, as one would expect given its appearance at some time in history, and not before.  Da's perennial name changes reflect this movement.

Irmeli: I agree with GK that kundalini is a tremendous cosmic force. I claim that it connects a person to the collective subconsciousness of humanity. There is plenty of dirty and heavy stuff there. To be able to successfully  deal with this opening, one has to be willing to work with that heavy stuff as one's own.

I likewise agree that kundalini is cosmic and taps the collective unconscious.  The latter might be seen as the epi-manifestation of a certain ordering of cosmic energy, carried in our material cells.  The ordering of those cells—which we call here a human, there cat, there a tree—might be viewed as a living written history of cosmic processes these cosmic energies enact … in other words, evolution, as you suggest, Irmeli.

Irmeli: The aim of our evolution is however to become aware of the energetic structures or motives that uphold our behavioral patterns.

Very nicely put.  : )

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Irmeli: This kind of person has not evolved interpersonally to mutuality, to a capacity to be in a dialogue with others. ( Here I'm using concepts adopted from 'Evolving Self' by Robert Kegan).

Yes, and this is one reason of course why Ken stresses work on interpersonal relations so much. If a person is solely interested in meditation, even if that person becomes a star meditator and a guru him- or herself it will not mean that much unless that person can also function well in the intersubjective. And they are on different lines of development.

Irmeli: Kundalini is a powerful evolutionary force with directionality.

Yes, I think so as well. That's a very important connection that is seldom made or appreciated. Even Shambhala, his publisher—the book was first published in 1970 with the name Kundalini: The Evolutionary Energy in Man, but when they reprinted it in 1993 they changed the name to Living with Kundalini.

Irmeli: I agree with GK that kundalini is a tremendous cosmic force. I claim that it connects a person to the collective subconsciousness of humanity. There is plenty of dirty and heavy stuff there. To be able to successfully  deal with this opening, one has to be willing to work with that heavy stuff as one's own.

This is very important, I think, and I finally have the opening to bring in the PIT OF SNAKES!

I came very close the other day, in fact copied some of it out, but now the time has finally arrived.

Okay, I give you Da:

 
THE PIT OF SNAKES!!!!!!!!
                                         
                     (the bolding is mine—Beloved Adi Da Spoke these Words to His devotees)


Avatar Adi Da Samraj: By tendency, you all live from the domain of feeling. You live as conventional social personalities, and your lives are organized  around behavioral obligations that are communicated to you from infancy.

However, there is a dimension in you that does not merely want to be this social personality, does not merely want to submit to the behavorial demands that you have inherited, and is not happy in any case.  This level of emotion exists beneath the social personality. You do not like this level of emotion, and therefore you try to maintain the characteristics of the social personality as many hours of the day as you can. But then circumstances, moments of weakness, the phases of your own hormonal system, and various other factors cause you from time to time to fall into this ”PIT OF SNAKES” that is your reactive, non-social, and even anti-social personality.

At those times you are resistive, angry, afraid, sorrowful, righteous, lustful—all the patterns one would call “you,” as the ego. This is true of everyone. No one is merely the perfect social personality… . Most people do not even want to get close to the realm of emotions that is associated with this irresponsible ego-self. All of common society is devoted to keeping people from getting in touch with this “PIT OF SNAKES.”

”In My Play with you, I have not avoided putting you in touch with that realm of emotion, that “PIT OF SNAKES.” … Our “consideration” together must lead you to deal with this emotional bondage, lead you through and beyond it, so that you no longer exist in the domain of the superficial social personality, nor do you exist in or fall back into this pit of reactive egoity.

“To complete this “consideration,” however, you must kill those snakes… . You must exist always in the Domain of Free Feeling, Which is inherently intimate contact with the Transcendental… .

“Love one another, and there is nothing cool about it. What I mean by this love for one another is to become wounded by love, to submit yourself to love, to live in the world of love, and to make your relationships about love. Be vulnerable enough to love and be loved. If you do this, you will be wounded by this love but you will not be diseased. The wound of love is the “Hole in the universe,” and ultimately it is Realized as such.

“In this 'Hole in the Universe,” this Domain of Feeling without armoring, without self-contraction—the great Physics, the great Science, the great Possibility, is evident. Hardly anyone in human history has known of it. Human beings in general do not want anything to do with It. They do not want to come close enough to It to be wounded in their intimacies with one another. It is the Doorway to Divine Transfiguration, Divine Transformation, and, ultimately, Divine Translation, or Outshining of Phenomenal existence. It is the Way into the Divine Self-Domain.”

*          *              *               *

So there you have it, the Ruchira Avatar and the teaching of the PIt of Snakes.

I think it mirrors A. H. Almaas' ideas of the narcissistic complex, the narcissistic wound, and narcissistic rage very nicely, and it is also one of the most important things to consider in  the guru-student relationship and our relationship with all people. Of course, there are parelels here with the shadow as well, but I think there are some subtle but important differences between Da and Almaas' approach and the way shadowwork is often approached.

Maybe we will just sit with Da a little, and then I will post Almaas' version of this in a moment.

Irmeli said: I claim that it [kundalini] connects a person to the collective subconsciousness of humanity.

Yes, I think it can penetrate what Da called the ” conventional social personality” and disable its ability to repress the Pit of Snakes. Part of this may simply be because the person now has more energy with which to confront these snakes. So the snakes are the subconscious, and if one can “kill” those snakes, as Da puts it—Almaas says that the narcissistic rage must be “digested”—then one can fall more deeply into Being and act more purely from Being. To the extent those Pit of Snakes haven't been killed or at least charmed, we have a troubled guru and a guru who will cause a little trouble.

Irmeli: If the door to kundalini energy opens up, and there is not enough structures or stages  available to appropriately work with the stuff that starts to pour out, I suppose rapid regression starts to appear in the person.This is one possible explanation to the regression of many 'enlightened' gurus.

Yes, I think that is just it. Work hasn't been put into structures in some cases, partly because the tradition most likely didn't emphasize it, and the Pit of Snakes takes over, at least in moments of pressure.


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

The Pit of Snakes, love it.  : )

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Avatar Adi Da Samraj: By tendency, you all live from the domain of feeling. You live as conventional social personalities, and your lives are organized  around behavioral obligations that are communicated to you from infancy.

Why does Adi Da see the generally approved lower left connecting patterns as behavioral obligations? Our postmodern, pluralistic societies leave lot of space for our own experimenting, and to different alternatives. There are several fully acceptable behavioral forms for the differeing stages of interpersonal development. When I look at the society surrounding me, I have difficult to see true obligations except the laws. And I basically fully accept them. They have crucially important regulatory function in a society. I admit I have some dysfunctional patterns, but they are not obligations, just my compulsions. Some people may feel their compulsions to be obligations forced on them by the society. These are often patterns we have got programmed to by our family, but still we can work through those patterns and then take another course that we see more conducive to the well-being of the society.

Adi Da:However, there is a dimension in you that does not merely want to be this social personality, does not merely want to submit to the behavorial demands that you have inherited, and is not happy in any case.  This level of emotion exists beneath the social personality. You do not like this level of emotion, and therefore you try to maintain the characteristics of the social personality as many hours of the day as you can. But then circumstances, moments of weakness, the phases of your own hormonal system, and various other factors cause you from time to time to fall into this ”PIT OF SNAKES” that is your reactive, non-social, and even anti-social personality.

I have plenty of voices  inside me that have difficulties with socially acceptable behavior. But I am the boss of my mind, and don't want to act out those interpersonal patterns. However, I don't suppress those perspectives or voices. I let them internally express themselves, and as  there are many differing voices inside me, they tend to counterbalance each other. My actions  and tendencies are conclusions drawn from those communications. I call this activity of my mind internal integrative work. It takes away the edge of those reactive voices. 

Adi Da: At those times you are resistive, angry, afraid, sorrowful, righteous, lustful—all the patterns one would call “you,” as the ego. This is true of everyone. No one is merely the perfect social personality…

Yes. that is true. However it is fully possible to feel these emotions internally without fully identifying with them. I fully feeli them, listen to the story they tell, and present to that story line other perspectives. This means being internally in a dialogue with these emotions. I guess this requires some development in the emotional intelligence, and capacity to non identification with the emotion you work with while still fully feeling it.

.Adi Da: Most people do not even want to get close to the realm of emotions that is associated with this irresponsible ego-self. All of common society is devoted to keeping people from getting in touch with this “PIT OF SNAKES.”

That is fully sensible functioning. In a mentally healthy person the defense mechanisms automatically take care of this. It can be harmful to start by force breaking down those protective mechanisms. Most of our defencs mechanisms are crucially important to our mental health. It is possible to open to the 'pit of snakes' gradually hand in hand with one's increasing capacity to contain and work with those issues.


Adi Da:”In My Play with you, I have not avoided putting you in touch with that realm of emotion, that “PIT OF SNAKES.” … Our “consideration” together must lead you to deal with this emotional bondage, lead you through and beyond it, so that you no longer exist in the domain of the superficial social personality, nor do you exist in or fall back into this pit of reactive egoity.

I s Adi Da really capable of judging if the other will  be capable of containing what he is opening  through this play with others?

Adi Da:“To complete this “consideration,” however, you must kill those snakes… . You must exist always in the Domain of Free Feeling, Which is inherently intimate contact with the Transcendental… .

I wonder why those snakes have to be killed? They can be quite useful. And in anyway they too belong to the manifold creation of nature. It may be  wiser to befriend them, and make them work for you.

Adi Da:“Love one another, and there is nothing cool about it. What I mean by this love for one another is to become wounded by love, to submit yourself to love, to live in the world of love, and to make your relationships about love. Be vulnerable enough to love and be loved. If you do this, you will be wounded by this love but you will not be diseased. The wound of love is the “Hole in the universe,” and ultimately it is Realized as such.

Love tends to activate and open in us issues from the 'pit of snakes'. Knowing and accepting this, and being capable of working through the activated stuff, can make our relationships flourish, and become a path of healing and evolving.


David: So the snakes are the subconscious, and if one can “kill” those snakes, as Da puts it—Almaas says that the narcissistic rage must be “digested”—then one can fall more deeply into Being and act more purely from Being.

I like much better Almaas idea of digesting the narcissistic rage than trying to kill the snakes.
I tend to believe that the better you are capable of consciously containing and working with the pit of snakes the more easy it is to stay deeply and firmly grounded in Being while active in socially acceptable ways in society in its different world spaces.
There is no need to try to force or manipulate anyone to evolve. It is inbuilt in everyone. Cracks and openings appear  in everyone's worldspace. All that is needed is someone present in those situations, someone who helps the person to see a little further in a stage appropriate way, or maybe firmly setting some limits to the acting out of the person.

Irmeli

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Another inspired post, Irmeli.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Bjorn: What's wrong with a little adoration?

When we under-stand, 
we will look up upon

Yes, I think that's an important point, Bjorn. I think we might also differentiate between different levels of adoration (mythic, materialistic, up to what may be more like “Turquoise appreciation.” This also gets into projection, which is the facet of the Pit of Snakes teaching that shadowwork tends to focus on. Almaas also talks a little about projection. AC, in a similar way as Almaas, talks about projection in his Promise of Perfection teachings, but that's the only place I know of in evolutionary enlightenment that projection is discussed.

ACis very good with some aspects of all this, but I think his teachings would benefit from some model like Almaas' about the narcissistic complex, narcissistic rage and such—students have to digest the narcissistic rage rather than defend themselves against it or think the teacher (or anyone else, for that matter) has necessarily done something wrong when their own Pit of Snakes rises in their field of awareness. I'm also not aware of any discussion of negative projection in AC's evolutionary enlightenment, and I think that would also make a big difference if it were there.


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Tom, that was a wonderful rundown of dependence and origination. I especially liked this part about origination:

 Now consider origination.  If you ask, where did the heat come from that holds me as me?  The answer, of course, is the sun (currently augmented by my parabolic electric heater).  The sun, for its part, has its own origination: it came from matter collected from the death of other suns, and from hydrogen and helium floating around in the vicinity of where it became a sun.  Those bits of matter themselves originated from something earlier, and on and on back to the big bang, or whatever that was.

It's really cool to near “The New Story” told in a Buddhist context like this.

I also think the integration could have big ramifcations on meditation and meditation-in-action. When one really contemplates the “chain of causation,” as you put it, along with the dependence aspect, it loosens one's grip on the “I.”  One can then let go into the evolutionary stream of events.

It would also be interesting to integrate dependent origination with the Pit of Snakes and the Shadow. To the extent that one is projecting or denying the connection between the ego and the Pit of Snakes one is reifying the “I” and upholding the socially constructed personality.


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

David: To the extent that one is projecting or denying the connection between the ego and the Pit of Snakes one is reifying the “I” and upholding the socially constructed personality.

I suspect you're onto something there.  “I” = separation = (if you think about it) denied connection, as you put it.  And it probably doesn't matter what connection you deny: connection is connection and denial is denial.

One can look at origination this way: everything I call “me” is borrowed.  All my cells, molecules and atoms, the language I speak, my culture, my parents, my DNA, my form, my birth place, my species, my hair colour, my blood—all borrowed.  I created none of this, which simply just appeared.  And though I appeared with a chip on my shoulder that says, in effect, I created me, that too is borrowed, serves a good purpose in the species and wider ecology, etc.  And what's more, I practically know how none of it works.  I haven't the foggiest fricken idea how even my left baby toe works, and I created me?  What a joke.  Shot-through borrowed, constructed, gathered-together not-me-created appearance.

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

Tom: Of course, I understand that Eastern formulations of “enlightenment” generally predate the scientific discovery of evolution, but this seemingly hasn't stopped modern practitioners from wholeheartedly endorsing a very fixed notion of enlightenment.
 
Yes, I think the word “enlightenment” is an Amber artifact. On one hand, the term “enlightenment” is very inspiring on one level, but it has the major drawback of not being particularly process oriented and implying this final state of arrival. I think if each tradition embraced levels of enlightenment it would help a lot, with no ultimate enlightenment implied.


~David

Re: The Divinely "Emerging" World-Blessing Work of Adi Da Samraj

“Enlightenment” holds an essential key to peace.  I agree it's inspiring—the diamond so long sought.  “Enlightening” holds the prospect of higher levels of peace than currently experienced.  What a sweet invitation!