Identify your spirituality.

Is it possible for you to choose one of the possible alternatives below? If so, choose one and tell us more about it! If not, why?

Instead of giving a written description of how these are different, I will instead rely on this format:

Does God exist? Yes/No/Don't know
How Personal is God? Scale 1-4.
With 1 being: God is a highly personal being. He literally listens to your prayers, he can change things at wish, he has feelings, composes books, arranges revalations, and so on. Revealed through scripture and miracle. To
4: God is fully impersonal; a natural force, and nothing more than this.
Miracles? Yes/No/Unlikely
Does God exist beyond his creation? Yes/No/No, after creation God became the creation.
Is God immanent in his creation; is God his creation? Yes/No

Here goes:

————————————-

Theism -
Does God exist? - Yes
How personal is God? - 1
Miracles? - Yes
Does God exist beyond his creation? - Yes
Is God immanent in his creation; is God his creation? - No

Panentheism -
Does God exist? - Yes
How personal is God? - 2
Miracles? - Unlikely
Does God exist beyond his creation? - Yes
Is God immanent in his creation; is God his creation? - Yes

Panendeism -
Does God exist? - Yes
How personal is God? - 3
Miracles? - No
Does God exist beyond his creation? - Yes
Is God immanent in his creation; is God his creation? - Yes

Deism -
Does God exist? - Yes
How personal is God? - 3
Miracles? - No
Does God exist beyond his creation? - No, after creation God became the creation. So before creation God existed as a single being, now he is the pluralistic world and can be understood through logic and reason, and perhaps the Universe will one day coalesce back into a single being, God.
Is God immanent in his creation; is God his creation? - Yes

Pantheism -
Does God exist? - Yes
How personal is God? - 4
Miracles? - No
Does God exist beyond his creation? - No
Is God immanent in his creation; is God his creation? - Yes

Atheism -
Does God exist? - No

Agnosticism -
(Agnosticism can be ranged on a scale from say 1 to 10, with 1 being “God most probably do exist, but I can't be sure” and 10 beings “God most probably doesn't exist, but I can't be sure”.)
Does God exist? - Don't know, 1-10
How personal is God? - Don't know, 1-10
Miracles? - Don't know, 1-10
Does God exist beyond his creation? - Don't know, 1-10
Is God immanent in his creation; is God his creation? - Don't know, 1-10

————————————-

I don't know if this was a very good system to categorize these various alternatives. For example panentheism can be so many different things to different people. However, I have given my best shot. Now I'm curious about what you guys will pick! Personally, I have a really hard time choosing one over the other. Some kind of panendeism would probably be it, or perhaps pantheism. Or perhaps a scale 9 agnostic. Uck!

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Dawid, I'd have to pick both high-number agnosticism, which for me is more an ungno-ing-ness than an “a-” (outside of, nothing to do with) gnosis, and panendeism.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

How about (the option not covered) it is irrelevant not matter what.

What ever the outcome, we still put our pants on one leg at a time.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

You can be a theist and understand that we put on our pants in the same way, regardless of belief. You can be an atheist and understand that we put on our pants in the same way, regardless of belief. You can be an agnostic and understand that we put on our pants in the same way, regardless of belief.

Therefore, your remark isn't relevant within the context of this thread. How about you try and answer it instead? But if you'd like we can add Passive Nihilism - “Who gives a shit anyway?” to the list.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Is,
You wrote: You can be a theist and understand that we put on our pants in the same way, regardless of belief. You can be an atheist and understand that we put on our pants in the same way, regardless of belief. You can be an agnostic and understand that we put on our pants in the same way, regardless of belief.

You are quick to learn, Grasshopper. That was my point exactly.

Therefore the relevance of your remark is on a par with my own.

You, as the author of this thread, contextualize it in your manner. I, as the reader/responder, contextualize it in my manner. The two may not coincide. It would appear that your desire was that we all contextualize your initial post in the same way you do. It will never happen…that is just the nature of contexts and desires in this little flash of time and space. My answer is an answer, just not the kind you desired.

If you dig into the etymology of the word belief you will find that it means to possess a fervent hope, a desire. From one context it would appear that beliefs, being desires, create suffering.

To put an end to beliefs would be a step in the direction of putting an end to suffering.  No? 

Re: Identify your spirituality.

“To put an end to beliefs would be a step in the direction of putting an end to suffering.  No?”

Well, yes.

I personally don't see my, say, “panendeistic” view as a belief, though. More like a result of logical consequences. And if other logical consequences prove I am contradicting myself in any way, I would be happy to alter my view. There is, after all, only one Truth with a capital T.

Can't you try to answer the question though, I am interested in your opinion. I know you can squeeze an answer out if you try!

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Ok, here's the squeezings,  we can call it for the sake of identification: Frklghmbv.

Does God exist? Of course he exists. If He didn't, what are all those churches doing out there? (That is more or less a direct quote from Richard Dawkins.)

How Personal is God? God is whatever the believer wants Him to be.

Miracles? If shit happens so does ambrosia. Call it what you like.

Does God exist beyond his creation? Man is the measure of all things and he measures his fears and hopes in a creation called God.

Is God immanent in his creation; is God his creation? No.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Well done!

<pats on head>

However, I'm not quite satisfied just yet. Just like with everybody else here, I would still like to better attach a more precise label on you, so that I after that can place you neatly into a dusty old box in the archive, never having to think about you or your views again. So here goes - Pragmatic Hedonism.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Is,
You would have had to work really hard to get an identity more sterile, more constipated, than Pragmatic Hedonism. It sounds so…???…philosophical?

So, M and I are working on an alternative to kynacism, which is Peter Sloterdijk's alternative to cynicism. It is “Aeluricism” and it has its origin in this post from my blog. (Pay particular attention to the second comment.)

My identity as regards this thread: Aeluricism. Details are a work in progress.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

How cheeky you are, Nickson! I am both stunned and slightly offended.

“Flexible, not set in her ways, responding to the moment, to the instinct of what seems right for the time even if it completely contradicts yesterday. She awakens and bends Diogenes out of his posturing.”
 
Now we're getting somewhere. You're right, this is an odd philosophy. Seems like a comfortable blend of Cynicism, Epicureanism, Bodhicitta, Fatalism, Stoicism, Pyrrhonism and a pinch of Nihilism. I like.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Dawid,
My question now is how Fatalism got into the list above?

I appreciate the basis of classical Epicureanism, but have a distaste for the puritanical and renunciant teachings of Epicurus.

For my take on the subject of sensuality and sensualism for consideration as an aspect of Aeluricism, here is my take on those aspects of life and art as found in the Integral Province.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Nondual Evolutionary Panentheism


Does God exist?

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Don't think that would be a helpful distinction in an academic setting, for example. Nobody would have a clue what you were talking about. Isn't it better to choose one of the established categories, and then elaborate from there? In your case Panentheism.

I mean, answering Yes and No on the question of whether God exists will not help enlighten anyone about your position, which is really what these kinds of distinctions are about.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Surprising Is, you didn't get an alternative for Buddhists here. I would seem at the alternative is between various degrees of personal anthropomorphic gods or no gods of any kind.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Is: Isn't it better to choose one of the established categories, and then elaborate from there?

It's time to put nondual evolutionary panentheism on the map!



Is: Answering Yes and No on the question of whether God exists will not help enlighten anyone about your position, which is really what these kinds of distinctions are about.

Since it's nondual evolutionary panentheism I had to answer yes and no.

It's a paradox.

Yes from the perspective of the separate-self sense.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

“Surprising Is, you didn't get an alternative for Buddhists here.”

Hey, Holden. What kind of alternative would you like to add? I thought Atheism, Pantheism, Deism or Agnosticism would be good categories for most buddhists. And regarding the anthropomorphic gods, since they aren't creator Gods but just as trapped in Samsara as we are, I don't think they count.

——–

Btw, I'd like to recommend this article, by Robert Lawrence Kuhn, dealing with the ever so intriguing question “Why this universe?” and lists all the possible answers he has been able to find, searching throughout the ages. He divides the various opinions into four main categories: “One Universe Models”, ”Multiple Universe (Multiverse) Models”, ”Non-physical Causes” and ”Illusions”.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

No, your right that you covered all the traditional bases, but it seems god in all these choices is god with a capital G. Phenomenon itself isn't god in any of these choices, which is something more Integral, no?

I have an uncle for example that's a Catholic mystic and he has an understanding of god as simply everything and everyone at once. Here god can't really be defined as anything separate from anything else.  In that sense I don't believe in a god, I simply can't deny god through direct experience. There's no belief.

What do you think?

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Rick, assume there exist more than one universe.  Would a notion of my being in some manner the All encompass those other universes?  My mental response is, I have no idea.

Now expand that question.  It's conceivable another universe could exist without time as we know it—time might be this-universe particular.  I have absolutely no idea what a non-time universe would look like, whatever other mode that universe, if you could even call it a universe, would exist in.  I have no idea what it would mean to be the all with that.

Allness, itself, might likewise be this-universe particular.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Tom
You wrote: I have absolutely no idea what a non-time universe would look like…

All you have to do to get an idea about non-time is to eliminate memory. If people were like goldfish…that from what I heard once in a song lyric…have no memory at all, the illusion of time would not exist. Or, do a thought experiment that is based on your mind as a video camera that only “knows” what it is “seeing” in each nano-moment.

Just as the mind of Humanity invented God and made God REAL, so we invented time out of the raw resources of our memories. Time is closely associated with humanities evolutionary adaptability, survivability.

Everything happens at once…that is all there is time for.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

“I have an uncle for example that's a Catholic mystic and he has an understanding of god as simply everything and everyone at once. Here god can't really be defined as anything separate from anything else.”

Sounds very good to me. But you can interpret that in different ways. Is he a pantheist in that he believes that everything and everyone (like the energy and natural order) is God, and that there's nothing more to it than that? Or does he believe that God also created it all - that he “pre-existed” the world of phenomena? Is there some kind of meaning to the energy-ripples, and why the natural order is “set” the way it is? If this is so, we are leaning over to a panentheistic interpretation, for example.

I think these kinds of alternatives helps one to understand what kind of position one is actually holding. Simply saying “everything is God” can be interpreted in sooo many different ways.

I also thought how the Spiral Dynamics connect to these alternatives. And I think, roughly speaking, that it is simply that everything up to Amber were essentially Ascender Theism or Descender Pantheism (or some kind of Superstitious Atheism in the interesting case of buddhism), and then with the advent of Orange the plethora of other alternatives came along, in order to respond to the enlightenment of modernism.

“I simply can't deny god through direct experience. There's no belief.”

Yeah, that's how I see it as well. It's like you look at a leaf, then tear it into two parts. Did the leaf go into the left part, the right part, both parts, or neither? Since not any of these alternatives are applicable, but the undeniable appearance (the “not-utter nothingness”), whatever that is, doesn't go away with the realization of the leaf's nonfindability - then this is the only proof for God that I need. And it seems to be coherent with most traditional notions of God - ineffable, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient (since all is empty, there is nothing to know), the One Truth, etc. Still, this is Pantheism/Deism (God as the Condition, capital C), and I am Agnostic to whether I should accept Panendeism or not.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Tom: ” It's conceivable another universe could exist without time as we know it—time might be this-universe particular.”

How is time existent in this universe?

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Steven and Rick, forget time.  Try imagining a universe without gravity.  Or atoms.  Or space.  Or consciousness.  What would that look like?

Personally, I don't accept arguments that this universe covers the territory of what could or does (exist).  I mean, I don't even have a language to express this, so this-universe bound am I.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Tom,
you declare: Personally, I don't accept arguments that this universe covers the territory of what could or does (exist)…

Neither do I. But, I'm an old man. There is a precocious kitten asleep  on my lap. There is a beautiful woman in the next room waiting for me to go to bed with her. There is a little of Venezuela's finest, rarely exported,  rum in the tumbler at my elbow. Why in hell would I want to go anywhere else?

I don't need another universe right now…probably never will.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Ok, I accept one argument.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

When reading through the initial questions, I observed I couldn't answer any of them. Even I don't know felt incorrect.
I feel deeply connected to an intelligent source that is beyond my analytical understanding or transcendental to it. On the deepest level I feel being guided from there, and That is most intimate to me. However each time I try to define by words That in some ways, a wall arises that prevents me from trying to put That to words.


Irmeli

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Hi, Irmeli.

What do you think about this statement: ”There is only One Truth and that is my Lord X! Why, you ask? Well, because he can create 100 $ bills from pure space. How do I know this, you ask? Well, because it says so in this scroll. Why do I believe it just because it says so in this scroll, you ask? Well, because of faith. Why do I have faith, you ask? Well… err… shut up now or me and my now very offended congregation will kill you.” (L/4)

If you find yourself not resonating with claims like these, atleast you know you're not a Theist. :) 

Re: Identify your spirituality.

These kind of statements have started to make some sense to me only through learning how people operate and interpret phenomenon at the different developmental stages.
When I was much younger people having these kind of ideas truly bothered me. I was wondering if these people where crazy. I must admit I cannot remember myself having gone through this kind of phase. I have difficulties in owning this kind of thinking, and consider as a possibility these kind of statements  coming from  pathological amber.

I remember in school when I learned in religion class about the ten commandments, the first commandment really resonated in me. It told something like not to make a picture or image of God. That resonated in a deep way in me.
But then I got a big problem, because a lot of what was written in the Bible I felt actually offended crudely against this most important commandment. I think I was 10 or 11 at that time.

This no image principle is so deep seated in me that even using the word God, because it is a symbol, is felt as a violation in me. That word does not arise spontaneously in my thinking. I use it only if it is necessary in my  communication with others. Even then it slightly feels like a violation.

This felt violation comes from a very subtle vibrational level. It feels like an invisible wall arising prohibiting me using that word. If I try to anyway, I start to feel nauseous.

 I'm not an atheist or agnostic.

Irmeli

Re: Identify your spirituality.

“It told something like not to make a picture or image of God. That resonated in a deep way in me.”

Yeah, I can understand that. But from what level did you interpret it? Since you took offence, I would guess Amber. A higher interpretation may be that since God is non-dual, making vain dualistic attempts to accurately describe Him/Her/It will never work. But only Amber (Theism) becomes personally offended if someone tries.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

I have no idea from what level that  feeling of irritation, dismay, aversion or dislike comes from, but I  do appreciate that energy. Nowadays I truly seldom get any perception of that style Christians. They don't get much publicity here. Now it is the Muslims that function as catalysts for me in connecting to those energies.

 I don't act those energies out.  I process with them  internally. That is fun, useful and energizing.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

“I do appreciate that energy […] That is fun, useful and energizing.”

I doubt these guys would be happy to agree with you.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

I have difficulties in understanding what you mean.

Apparently you misunderstood what I was trying to convey. I tried to say I appreciate working with and through the feeling of getting offended, the feeling of dismay, repulsion etc. this form of religious understanding tends to activate in me. It may also help to activate deep fury internally in me that is very healing and energizing to work through.
I DO NOT appreciate the way terrorists deal with and act out their difficult, frustrated and suppressed emotions and energies. Their incapacity and immaturity in dealing with those energies infuriates me. However I have observed that this infuriation activates useful processes in me.

My understanding is that it is important to learn to appreciate all kinds of feelings and emotions. Their usefulness versus harmfulness depends on what you do with them. Feeling fury does  not necessarily create  harmful  results.Incapacity to feel fury fully internally and hence feeling compelled to act it out often tends to create disastrous  effects.

Irmeli

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Is: But from what level did you interpret it?

I ask you the same question in response to Irmeli's original general take on energy? Further, with your example comment below, It seems that on that occasion your interpretation is Amber, which is at odds with your proposal that 'only Amber (Theism) becomes personally offended if someone tries.'

Is: I doubt these guys would be happy with you.

How can you justify bypassing stages of development, that the lack of understanding in your comment points towards, in the way Irmeli is interpreting and using the notion of 'energy?'

Lisa

Re: Identify your spirituality.

“Tom: Personally, I don't accept arguments that this universe covers the territory of what could or does (exist).  I mean, I don't even have a language to express this, so this-universe bound am I.”

True, but we have yet to uncover most of this one.

rick

Re: Identify your spirituality.

I completely agree, Rick.  I'm just speculating to gain an insight, if possible, into the way I view my status.  It's an inner-work directed query.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

“How can you justify bypassing stages of development, that the lack of understanding in your comment points towards, in the way Irmeli is interpreting and using the notion of 'energy?'”
 
I just think it is good to know that just these kinds of energies - the feelings of aversion, hate, frustration, irritation - upon having one's precious beliefs challanged is responsible for the needless ending of countless lives. If Irmeli is aware and mature enough to simply process and work with them constructively, that's great. But my problem was just that she seemed to glorify these kinds of feelings.

I my mind there is nothing to glorify at all. The feelings are simply the result of ignorance; a clinging on to a fixed personal notion of reality. And if you're at a Red or Amber base of consciousness (which we all can regress back to, mind you), beheading is just around the corner. Being aware of this is how to help prevent harmful behaviour - not by putting these feelings of hate up and worshipping them on a pedestal of Green naïveness.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Is:I just think it is good to know that just these kinds of energies - the feelings of aversion, hate, frustration, irritation - upon having one's precious beliefs challanged is responsible for the needless ending of countless lives….But my problem was just that she seemed to glorify these kinds of feelings….The feelings are simply the result of ignorance; a clinging on to a fixed personal notion of reality.

I have pretty long been in the process of exploring also these emotions and learning about them. A fact is that they are essential part of how life works, and not only human life. Why couldn't  we want to evolve in dealing constructively with these types of energies.
There has been so much idealization about love, but in actual life it practically never gets realized. Maybe we would need to look elsewhere, to those feelings you perceive me glorifying. 

Is:The feelings are simply the result of ignorance; a clinging on to a fixed personal notion of reality.

How do you know this is true? To me this sounds  as an unquestioned belief system, the type religions in different forms tend to advocate. Look at all the violence that has been made in the name of these same religions. Why do so many religious people stay stuck emotionally and morally at amber? Could it be because of glorification love, purity etc. at the cost of other types of emotions internally. All emotions and feelings carry important information. Pathologies are inevitable result of disowning  important of information that our evolutionary history has equipped ourselves capable of receiving.

The belief of these feelings being a result of ignorance  easily leads to massive shadow forming and pathological acting out of those shadows. Anything that arises in our minds carries some information. Ignorance does not go away by dismissing information. It goes away by learning better to interpret information. Ignorance perpetuated by dismissing information and by unwillingness of questioning our habitual ways of interpreting information.
As long as some emotions are relegated to our shadow domain, they are bound to be acted out in very unevolved forms.

Btw. you have earlier sent  to this pod some pics of you playing in a heavy metal band. Many people consider that kind of music being glorification of very low and violent emotions and energies.

Irmeli

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Irmeli: How do you know this is true? To me this sounds  as an unquestioned belief system, the type religions in different forms tend to advocate. Look at all the violence that has been made in the name of these same religions. Why do so many religious people stay stuck emotionally and morally at amber? Could it be because of glorification love, purity etc. at the cost of other types of emotions internally. All emotions and feelings carry important information. Pathologies are inevitable result of disowning  important of information that our evolutionary history has equipped ourselves capable of receiving.

Yes, I quite agree. that was the point I really wanted to highlight also.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Lately I've been flirting with the Raelian UFO Religion. I must say this is the best Religion I've encountered so far. Judge for yourself.

Does God exist? No. Our creators are the Elohim, a superior alien race
How personal is God? 1 - the Elohim exist in the flesh, just like us.
Miracles? Yes, their superior technolgy appeared as miracles in ancient times.
Does God exist beyond his creation? Yes, see above.
Is God Immanent in his creation; is he his creation? No, we are genetical clones, but not the same.

Basically, Raelism propagates Intelligent Design, except there is no God and no Holy Spirit. Only the Elhohim, who designed all life on Earth (and on two other planets in our Galaxy). Now the time has come to prepare our Planet for their return. Let's welcome them with gratefulness and love!

May we live long and prosper.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Christophe, the Raelians just might be right!

We, in fact, could be outcasts from the Elhohim world. Earth could be some kind of a prison or rehabilitation facility.


Irmeli:  I don't act those energies out.  I process with them  internally. That is fun, useful and energizing.


Irmeli, it sounds amazing to be able to do this as you do and to take such an impersonal perspective on unpleasant experience, energies.

I can see how this would be energizing. Almaas, for example, says that there is a lot of energy in the emptiness wound.

Is also presents an interesting perspective. I think there is a place for both.

Wilber often makes the point that meditation alone will tend to cause disassociation; he therefore also recommends shadowwork to reintegrate subpersonalities. 

That sounds like what Irmeli is doing. It can be difficult if one is very into meditation or emptiness analysis or something, but I would think that if one could learn to shift gears at the right time, to work with things when necessary, it would yield the best result.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

David:Is also presents an interesting perspective. I think there is a place for both.

I agree. I want to emphasize I explained only my approach, my way, and only part of it. Words are rough tools for explaining this territory, that for me mostly operates beyond words. I just sense different subtle emotions and energies and observe how they operate in my system. That observing spontaneously guides my further attention and interpretation of an approach, or my interpretation of paying attention to something in a certain way as beneficial or less beneficial.

And my approaches are not the best ones to most other people. I think they have to find themselves what works for them. Simultaneously it is important to be open to the insights and successes of others. There maybe something I can apply too, or something that can help me detect my blind spots

The Almaas link serves as a good example here.The emptiness wound by Almaas has not been my approach or my way of interpreting and intellectualizing my inner territory. Still I think my basic deep realization beyond words is very similar to Almaas.

Irmeli

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Are events predetermined?


1— all events are entirely predetermined

2— events are somewhat predetermined

3— events are a little predetermined

4— events are not at all predetermined



Nondual Evolutionary Panentheism—3


Are Christophe and I the only ones who have answered? Is, have you answered yet?

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Are events predetermined?

Is predetermined the same as saying there are conditions for an events existence? There is no thing that is not conditioned. So in this sense everything is predetermined i.e. has been conditioned and is dependently arisen (of course). :-)

Re: Identify your spirituality.

“I think there is a place for both.”

Yes, of course. Shadow work is extremely important. All I was objecting to was, as I said, Irmeli's glorification of these feelings.

“Are events predetermined?”
 
Oh, I didn't even know you had posed the question.

My view is nr 1, until we reach self-conscious beings (beings with an activated PSM). Then everything is not nr 1-predetermined. But I don't subscribe to the idea of ”free will” - a notion that actions can somehow be “pure” and spring out from some kind of acausal vacuum. Instead I propose the term ”conditioned will” - the idea that we indeed have a will to choose this or that, but, that this will is more or less conditioned by constant pressure from all quadrants, as well as memories, and what we have learned.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Let's agree to agree, Irmeli. I think we both agree that 1: Shadow Work is very important. That's why you work with your feelings of hate in meditation (or in whatever way you work with them) and I within the context of music. And 2: That in the hands of Red and Amber these mentioned feelings - being supressed - is almost always transmuted into physical and mental violence. Let's include both approaches into one superior integral view. :)

“How do you know this is true?”
 
Say that you just bought a new Ipod. After just four days it gets stolen by some guy in the street. The feelings of hate and irritation and frustration arise. Now the question becomes, why are these feelings here? Are they absolutely necessary because they are part of the nature of human beings, such that it seems is your view?

If these feelings are necessary, then we must investigate this together. First of all, why did they arise? They arose because of the Ipod getting stolen, and because of the theif. (“It has nothing to do with me!”) Now, if the feelings are necessary, we should be able to find the Ipod, because if there is no Ipod, the feelings are due to something else. So… where is it?

1: The Ipod is the same as it's parts a) individually, or the same as the parts b) collectively.
2: The Ipod is other than the parts of the Ipod.

1, a): If the Ipod is the same as the parts individually, then because the nature of the Ipod is that it is one singular phenomenon, either the parts must be one like the Ipod, or the Ipod must be many like the parts. Both are absurd. 1, b): If the Ipod is the same as the parts collectively, then if we change, say, the coloured casing from Black to Lime Green, then it wouldn't be the same Ipod any longer. It would be a whole other Ipod altogether, but this is not how we feel. It feels like it's the same old Ipod, but with a new casing. So this option doesn't work. 2: If the Ipod is wholly other than its parts, then why does it need them? Then this keyboard I'm using now could also in principle be an Ipod, because it has nothing to do with the parts whatsoever.

Ok, so it seems we can't find an Ipod, and we have searched everywhere it could possibly be. So the feelings of hate can't have arisen because of the Ipod! Maybe it is the thief's fault! (Trust me, we can make an analysis about the thief, not finding one. PM if you'd like to do one.) Ok, so it can't be the theif that the feelings of hate and aversion arose from. What then?! Perhaps it is my fault after all…

Now we're getting closer. But as we do the analysis to find an independently existing self which has feelings of aversion as its nature, then just like the Ipod, it turns out that we can't find one. So what's going on here? It seems like there is no actual thing that we can connect these hateful energies to. No referent. The belief that there actually is such a thing, which these energies actually arose in response to is called ignorance. Therefore, if you remove ignorance, the feelings has no weight any more. They becomes vague and liquid, and eventually evaporates.

So the next time your Ipod gets stolen, why hate the thief? Why hate at all? I think this is the message of Jesus.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Hi Is!

Just now I'm in a situation here, why I cannot respond to you today. I try to do it in the beginning of next week.

Yesterday I was in Helsinki taking care of my grandson, and meanwhile I had in my both computers the hard disk checked.
When arriving home late in the evening I got the message, that in my both computers, the portable one, and the one I work with in my husband's business, the hard disk is practically finished. Now I'm busily saving all that is not on the server.
The weekend I'll spend at our cottage without any net connection. I'll return to this in the beginning of next week, if one of my computers still work, or when I have got a new one.


Irmeli

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Is: I didn't even know you had posed the question.


I was referring to your original questions. I forgot you sort of answered them in your first post.  :)



Irmeli: Playing in a heavy metal band. Many people consider that kind of music being glorification of very low and violent emotions and energies.


I think it can be in some cases. Some play that kind of music and between numbers hit people with their guitars. But it can also be a processing of emotions and energies, just by another method.

There are probably a lot of violent-looking activities that are just other methods for processing these energies/emotions. Violent video games, violent sports, violent movies.


e: Is predetermined the same as saying there are conditions for an events existence? There is no thing that is not conditioned. So in this sense everything is predetermined i.e. has been conditioned and is dependently arisen (of course). :-)


I think that's an important aspect of the question. In AQAL terminology each event is partly determined by the AQAL matrix of the previous moment, which was partly determined by the AQAL moment of the moment before that, etc.

And then there is also a creative aspect of each moment that can't entirely be explained by what came before. So, to what degree is the creative aspect predetermined, or from where does that creativity arise?



Irmeli: I just sense different subtle emotions and energies and observe how they operate in my system. That observing spontaneously guides my further attention and interpretation of an approach, or my interpretation of paying attention to something in a certain way as beneficial or less beneficial.


That's very interesting to me—“spontaneously guides.” Ken Wilber once spoke of the microcosmic orbit, the circulating of energy up the spine and down the front—he said that these energies pretty much know what they are doing (kind of like our hearts know how to beat without our attention) but said that most people find it helpful to give the process a little attention.

If our minds and attention aren't riding along with them, they are off day dreaming or doing something else, and it's like we're doing two things at once, so our energy will be split between the two activities.

Eventually that can probably happen without effort or virtually without effort. What your doing is probably some advanced activity, a new evolutionary emergence, one that is not given at birth (like the beating of our hearts). So it takes developing and once developed as a habit can perhaps unfold spontaneously start to finish.

It probably takes a fair amount of work before the whole processs could become spontaneous, though.



Irmeli: Simultaneously it is important to be open to the insights and successes of others. There maybe something I can apply too, or something that can help me detect my blind spots.


I think this is important, too. I also think it's kind of a trick to do it in such a way that maintains the right self-sufficiency or “Be a lamp unto yourself” attitude. It's kind of a balancing act that could give way to projection, particularly with gurus, of course.

Some people are particularly adept, it seems to me, at encouraging projection—people like Adi Da are masters at it. Learning how to avoid falling into such projection traps, how to identify them as they are happening, while at the same time being open to new information seems like a pretty important art.

I think it might be interesting here or on another thread to explore that a little—how projection is encouraged by some spiritual teachers, why we fall into it. There are all sorts of other projection traps as well.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Is: So the next time your Ipod gets stolen, why hate the thief? Why hate at all? I think this is the message of Jesus.

Yes, I think Jesus gives a particularly clear and powerful version of that.

It also reminds me of a story about Ramana Maharshi:

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Great story, David.

I think it is important that forgiveness springs out of wisdom, rather than out of fear, desire for divine goodies, pity or sentimentality. In my mind, that is the only true forgiveness. In all other cases, we forgive because we want something in return. That ain't the love Jesus and all the great spiritual masters speak of. (And I think that it is only accessable post-L/4, l/m. All Amber morality is, as far as I've seen, based on fear and reward.)

Ramana didn't see any person with “thief-hood” as part of his nature. He saw that all thievery is born from ignorance, and this wisdom leads to a great compassion for all beings blind and trapped in cyclic existence.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Is:Let's agree to agree, Irmeli. I think we both agree that 1: Shadow Work is very important. That's why you work with your feelings of hate in meditation (or in whatever way you work with them) and I within the context of music. And 2: That in the hands of Red and Amber these mentioned feelings - being supressed - is almost always transmuted into physical and mental violence. Let's include both approaches into one superior integral view. :)

I cannot fully agree with your point 2. My understanding is that if a person is emotionally at red or amber she just cannot contain and look at these feelings in her mind too well at all. Such structures have not yet emerged. Suppression is a different type of phenomenon. There may be structures, but in certain issues they are not be available. In these issues the person has regressed to act from lower structures. Only in this case shadow therapy is meaningful.  Neither are these feelings not always acted out as mental or physical violence at red or amber stages. Only the likelihood is clearly higher than in cases where more evolved structures are available.

Is:The feelings are simply the result of ignorance; a clinging on to a fixed personal notion of reality.

Irmeli:How do you know this is true? To me this sounds  as an unquestioned belief system, the type religions in different forms tend to advocate.

Is:Say that you just bought a new Ipod. After just four days it gets stolen by some guy in the street. The feelings of hate and irritation and frustration arise. Now the question becomes, why are these feelings here? Are they absolutely necessary because they are part of the nature of human beings, such that it seems is your view?

If these feelings are necessary, then we must investigate this together. First of all, why did they arise? They arose because of the Ipod getting stolen, and because of the theif. (“It has nothing to do with me!”) Now, if the feelings are necessary, we should be able to find the Ipod, because if there is no Ipod, the feelings are due to something else. So… where is it?

Irmeli: This Ipod analysis of yours comes across to me as senseless. It would make some sense,  if we had been discussing  the theme of something perceived as independently existing entities. However as my quotes above from an earlier post show we have been discussing feelings. No claims has been made that feelings are independently existing entities.
Here you blur the issue by mixing up and changing contexts.

Is:Now the question becomes, why are these feelings here? Are they absolutely necessary because they are part of the nature of human beings, such that it seems is your view?

If anger, irritation or frustration arises in my mind, a question ” is this absolutely necessary” implies a need to get rid of this feeling. These feelings in themselves don't harm anyone, but there is a lot of evidence that trying to eradicate them does.
Much more helpful questions could be: What do I do with these emotions, when they spontaneously arise? What do they tell me? Could they be interpreted also in another way, or in many oter different ways? Can these different interpretations peacefully co-exist in my mind? Can they also be in dialogue with each other inside my mind?
Another helpful line of inquiry could be: Can I own and regognize these feelings as mine, when they arise? Could some of my persistent physical symptoms, or difficulty in my relationships, be due to my incapacity or unwillingness to feel these emotions? Does my longing to be free of these feelings in subtle ways lead to suppression of them? Is it possible to learn to appreciate these feelings and the information they deliver? If I could learn to appreciate these emotions, could I actually live in a more peacefull co-existence with my surroundings? Could my relationships to others improve?

I often work with anger internally. Then I don't initially need to have a correct referent for my anger. Facing and feeling anger, frustration and irritation fully is itself an opening and clearing process. During that process the energies themselves tend to gradually change form to something much more smoothly flowing. Also new insights and perceptions appear along with the process. If that wouldn't happen, and the anger would linger on, something has gone wrong. Probably I wouldn't allow myself to look at the issue from several different perspectives. Maybe because of the feeling of power the anger gives, and the possibility of retaliation it permits to me. Then I would need some help in dealing with the anger.

I have also repeatedly observed good results in situations, where I have actually expressed my anger towards another person. If I afterwards engage myself in internally working through the hurt feelings I suspect I activated in the other, more true loving kindness and compassion appears between us than before the episode.

Is:So the next time your Ipod gets stolen, why hate the thief? Why hate at all? I think this is the message of Jesus.

When anger arises in me towards the actions of a person, that does not mean that I hate that person. Practically always I don't.
Hate is a different emotion than anger. It is clearly more challenging. However hate cannot be made go away by saying that you must instead love a person (e.g. your mother). This can even make the whole issue more pathological by creating displacement and transference phenomenon. I don't anymore hate my mother, but the hate gets displaced to an external enemy, whom I even might want to kill. This is the phenomenon that amber forms of religions often manage to create in people.

Irmeli

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Thanks for your post and your honesty, Irmeli.

“However hate cannot be made go away by saying that you must instead love a person (e.g. your mother).”

That's not what I said. That kind of oblivious sentimentality doesn't cure hate, only supresses it.

Instead, what I am saying is that how can you hate something that doesn't exist? Hate is always based on ignorance; the ignorance of believing in objective entities. Have you seen the Matrix 1? In the end he were able to stop the bullets because he realized that they were not real. The Buddha turned the 10 000 arrows into lotus blossoms because he realized they were not real. In the same way that Neo stopped bullets, and the Buddha stopped arrows - in the same way is it possible to see through the illusory nature of “objects objectively causing hate”, whereupon the hate vanish like smoke into air.

However, if you enjoy the sensation of negative emotion, go ahead and play with it. The emotions are only a problem when you feel they cause suffering for yourself, or when they - through you - cause suffering in others.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Is:Instead, what I am saying is that how can you hate something that doesn't exist? Hate is always based on ignorance; the ignorance of believing in objective entities.

Hate may be based on ignorance in certain sense. However it is usually not helpful to say this to a person in whom hate arises.What you claim here is an end result of a long internal work, and it is absurd to start with this kind of  claim.
I cannot even see how this kind of theoretizing would have been helpful at any point in my inner journey. Maybe these types of ideas you propose would work for some people in some very specific point in their self development. At every other point of the journey saying something like this to someone who feels hate is cruelty, and probably only worsens the situation of that person.

Is:The Buddha turned the 10 000 arrows into lotus blossoms because he realized they were not real.

This is mythology, and should be understood methaphorically. How I understand this methaphora is that it works on a certain dimension after you have attained a rather high level of self realization. Again it is harmful to tell something like this to a person who has got deeply wounded for whatever reason and is not nearby attaining high Self realization.

Is:However, if you enjoy the sensation of negative emotion, go ahead and play with it.

I do not enjoy playing with negative emotions, but I enjoy transforming my perception of internal negative or harmful energy or feeling to something I can perceive as healing energy. This means often facing and working through masses of intense fear.
Your Buddha quote I understand to refer to this kind of transformation.
This is a long and demanding road to go. I see it as a poor skill in helping people to grow to start by telling the possible end result of a difficult process, especially if you cannot evaluate if the person is even near that kind realization. I consider it also morally questionable to tempt a person to embark on a Buddhist path by making these kind of promises. Most Buddhists never get there. My understanding is that this kind of realization is possible only, if many other kinds of rather complex sturctures are already established and well functioning in a person.

People can be helped to work through their hate much more easily through using the structures that are already available to them.

Irmeli

Re: Identify your spirituality.

David:That's very interesting to me—“spontaneously guides.” Ken Wilber once spoke of the microcosmic orbit, the circulating of energy up the spine and down the front—he said that these energies pretty much know what they are doing (kind of like our hearts know how to beat without our attention) but said that most people find it helpful to give the process a little attention.

This spontaneity has been an essential corner stone of my path since my deep awakening experience at age 16. I then realized suddenly and effortlessly while walking downstairs at home that there is deep intelligence guiding life beyond its manifest forms. My efforts trying to be or become something were futile, and worked often against this intelligence. I didn't need to try to be anything. Stopping this trying simultaneously created a surrender to this deeper intelligence. This surrender meant a kind of relaxed alertness. I act only when a spontaneous impulse appears. It created also a perception of invincibility on a deep level where no bullets can hurt. This realization was deep and sudden, and there was no returning back.
I have also seen that other people don't spontaneously get this kind of deep realizations. It is also a puzzle to me why this happened so easily to me considering what kind of struggle people usually have around this issue.
Therefore I am not good at teaching these things. I have no idea how to facilitate this kind of transformation in people.

I think  that the cycle of learning is important to understand here. It includes four steps that are:
1. Unconscious incompetence
2. Conscious incompetence
3. Conscious competence
4. Unconscious competence

It is meaningful only to help people to grow in areas where they have reached conscious incompetence. The best teachers are people who are in a phase of conscious competence regarding that aspect of human evolving. They remember and know the difficulties and possible stumbling blocks along the road.
For a person at level of unconscious competence regarding that area a new structure has been already fully established and it works automatically and spontaneously. That person's attention can shift  on new emerging conscious incompetences.

I have  the feeling that in spiritual traditions certain forms of self realization are given so high status that many teachers get stuck at step 3 in their own evolving. They get attached to the status of a highly realized spiritual teacher, and cannot give way to people to replace them, people who more recently have arrived to conscious competence in that specific area of self realization.

Irmeli

Re: Identify your spirituality.

“However it is usually not helpful to say this to a person in whom hate arises.”

I always assume that people dealing with Integral are at a high and balanced level of development, capable of hearing the truth instead of just comforting new beliefs.

However, I thoroughly agree with you that radical buddhist analysis is not always a good method for personal therapy; a person must be mature, self-aware, comfortable with change/impermanence, etc for it to have any effect. Say someone just lost his wife in a plane crash, for example. Explaining that his wife and the airplane doesn't exist most probably won't help at all. As you say, it will probably only worsen the situation. Coming with such “advice” in a time of crisis would be extremely arrogant and highly inappropriate.

Instead a better time would be when a person is experiencing a continuous sense of dissatisfaction with life; a sense that there must be “something more”. In all kinds of “non-acute” situations of existential suffering like this it may be possible and effective to introduce a deeper analysis. (The requirement is, I think, that a person is to be located in the two higher “chunks” of the pyramid, as seen here.)

“This is mythology, and should be understood methaphorically.”

No shit? Jesus didn't turn water to wine either, huh? He didn't bring a literal sword with him in order to literally cut up families?

The way I understand it is that the arrows are like his supposed “inner demons” which are seen to be empty of objective existence, and thus rendered harmless. Just like hate can be rendered harmless, because it is caused by ignorance.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Is:Instead a better time would be when a person is experiencing a continuous sense of dissatisfaction with life; a sense that there must be “something more”. In all kinds of “non-acute” situations of existential suffering like this it may be possible and effective to introduce a deeper analysis.

I basically agree with this.

Is:The way I understand it is that the arrows are like his supposed “inner demons” which are seen to be empty of objective existence, and thus rendered harmless. Just like hate can be rendered harmless, because it is caused by ignorance.

I have personal experience with hate. Working through this hate was not just a  simple intellectual realization of the illusion of independent existence. It involved working through and facing deep seated violent and chaotic feelings and energies. I have difficult to see that this process could have beeb only an intellectual realization. Although that is useful also, but it covers only the surface level, and helps getting rid of blaming. However I have never blamed my mother for her behavior. She did always the best she could.

 I have had a violent childhood. My mother was a severe border line case prone to unpredictable violence towards me. It  was often of serious quality. I have got injuries to my head etc.

Only after my awakening at age 16 the hate towards her started to surface as I felt clearly less fear of her. I felt I hated her more than any other person in the world.
Occasionally I felt  that I could kill her, but then I immediately realized that in this way I would only harm myself. And I didn't want to harm myself. I wanted to heal myself, and also her.
During a ten year period I occasionally processed pretty intensely with issues that were someways related to this hate.  I never could feel the hate in the presence of my mother. I only felt myself becoming stiff, and also a depletion of my energies. During this period I also kept distance from my mother. Then one day I observed the hate was gone, and I spontaneously started to connect to her again. It was still challenging, but the hate had changed to feelings of frustration and anger of her present behavior.

This process I went through was an emotional and energetic level thing. Intellectual analysis of  if my mother really exists independently or not, or therapy, was not included in the process. Intellect was included in discriminating between different emotional states in the process of facing them and working through them.
This was an important learning experience for me. I think I needed that kind of childhood and mother for that learning. I'm grateful for her for facilitating that learning to me.
During the last years of my mother's life there appeared real warmth and closeness between us. My mother stopped drinking and she started to show capacity for empathy. This capacity had  been earlier missing in her. Other people were to her just tools she tried to control, manipulate, and utilize the best she could. I almost lack words to express how grateful I'm of that.

Irmeli

Re: Identify your spirituality.

“During the last years of my mother's life there appeared real warmth and closeness between us. My mother stopped drinking and she started to show capacity for empathy.”

That's quite wonderful. That even people with such deep-seated issues are capable of change.

“This process I went through was an emotional and energetic level thing. Intellectual analysis of  if my mother really exists independently or not, or therapy, was not included in the process.”
 
Would you recommend this approach to everybody, or do you think different people are susceptible to different ways of dealing with emotional issues? Perhaps your approach is more female, and the approach relying more on intellectual analysis is more male-ish? Perhaps both could be used in an integral kind of treatment? I for example enjoy really feeling, meeting, and engaging with arising emotions, all while analyzing their nature. I don't see why we must use only one or the other.

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Is:Would you recommend this approach to everybody, or do you think different people are susceptible to different ways of dealing with emotional issues? Perhaps your approach is more female, and the approach relying more on intellectual analysis is more male-ish? Perhaps both could be used in an integral kind of treatment? I for example enjoy really feeling, meeting, and engaging with arising emotions, all while analyzing their nature. I don't see why we must use only one or the other.

I do not know a single person whom I know has successfully worked through deep seated traumas through just an intellectual analysis. Even my intellect says that it probably cannot be done only that way. The trauma, the injury is normally of emotional quality. A secondary effect of the trauma often is that we start to use our intellect to protect ourselves from feeling the painful traumatic feelings.

I think gradual intellectual deconstruction of using our intellect too much to defense purposes is necessary . But this only opens us to feel the pain we have been escaping from. I cannot see how the work with emotions could be avoided.

 Alert observing and discriminating intellect that is focusing on the present structures in one's inner landscape is always necessary in the process. I tend to emphasize more the energetic aspect of the process. Maybe that is a feminine approach. And the male approach is emphasizing the analytical aspect.

Btw. conscious working with difficult energies is intellectually a very demanding process. But this intellect is not operating on the level of concepts formed of words. In this domain something that could be called concepts exists too. These concepts are however not made of words.They are different type of chunks.

Irmeli

Re: Identify your spirituality.

Irmeli: I think gradual intellectual deconstruction of using our intellect too much to defense purposes is necessary . But this only opens us to feel the pain we have been escaping from. I cannot see how the work with emotions could be avoided.

I'm with you on that, Irmeli.  I've noticed that if I simply feel feelings—and feel them for as long as they present, and in as many forms or with what repetition required—that something happens to me.  The act of feeling one's feelings, I surmise, is a form of acceptance that, coupled with the directing, healing agency of attention, aids the mysterious process of whole-person integration.  Having undergone this process myself for many years, I can easily spot an even spiritually evolved person who has not: they feel to me comparatively shallow, skittery and unintegrated.