Masculinity Movies

I saw this link for 'Masculinity Movies' on Pelle's status, and after having a look, wondered what y'all thought of the concept?

Re: Masculinity Movies

Nice! Thanks for the link Lisa.

james

Re: Masculinity Movies

Hi Lisa,

At first it kind of made me laugh—“Learn how to be a man by watching movies.”  :)

But then I see he has some depth. He was inspired to start the site after reading David Deida's The Way of the Superior Man, and there is some discussion and interpretation of each movie on the site.

I think it's a good idea if it increases awareness of the subject and starts discussions, which it seems likely to do. The entire postmodern feminization of men seemed to creep up on them silently, without them even knowing about it. Also, since it was humankind's first trip through Green en masse it's not surprising that many would go too far in some respects.

But now people need to move into, through, and out of that structure with awareness, so the entire issue needs to be put on the map and discussed. It used to be fairly simply to be a man or be a woman, but the postmodern and especially integrated roles are more complicated, and they need to be discussed, moved into with awareness.

The movies that were chosen (the few of them that I've seen anyway) seem to raise some interesting questions, too. It's a whole new way to look at movies, for men, anyway. Feminists raised awareness about how women were portrayed and new possibilities for women decades ago, but the same needs to be done for men now.

It can't be taken for granted any longer. Things are too complicated, and there are too many mixed messages.

I will find it interesting to look at movies in this light more from now on. Balancing masculine and feminine poles is an important art for everyone.


~David

Re: Masculinity Movies

Hi David, - well said. Yep, at first glance it really made me laugh too. :) I mean, its a pretty funny thing to declare isn't it, that such complication can be resolved through watching masculine vibed movies. But alas, yep, at second take, I thought he touched on something really deep & important too.

For the record, my favourite 'masculine' movie was Sideways. I thought the characters were just great. Particularly the tragic writer, with his broken heart and his love of fine wine. :) And the mens friendship.

I find myself drawn in some way to understanding things from this increasingly emerging re-take on masculinity, and how that is particularly for men, because of how seriously obscure things got after, as you say, the acute feminization of men during our current times.

And I think you hit the nail on the head there when you said that, 'people need to move into, through, and out of that structure with awareness… with the entire issue needing to be put on the map & discussed.' I guess this guys attempt to raise the issues and be provocative by making us think about what we watch is both powerful and most importantly, a very accessible way to bring up these issues.

Its very refreshing I feel, to even think that it is a real possibility that many of us care so much about how men have been and are continually portrayed as either ultra feminized or generally in the negative, that slowly awareness in this area is on the increase.

I read a blog yesterday - which I intend to post on this thread when I can find it, that looked at men & sexuality, how it has been portrayed through the porn industry, and how that is 100% detrimental to how men really are, and I found myself feeling very happy that these over all grotesque distortions of a reductionist wrong view of men, are one way or another being blasted into our awareness, and in that process, leaving a more nuanced and proper take on what it may mean to be a man these days. It's good news for everyone! More understanding.

You can almost feel the scales tipping on your finger tips, back in the right direction. :) I am an optimist, even though its all a long way off.

In my work environment all (most! ;)) women act like negative stereotypes of men - caricatures 'butch, hard, aggressive, domineering,' etc and the men act like negative stereotypes of women, 'soft, useless, victim like, unable, unassertive' etc etc… and the list could go on. It creates such a mess, and such a rubbish way of relating.

I think more awareness, and understanding will eventually play into the disintegration of that performed nonsense, and one way or another we might get to a point were there's a glimmer of just acting like ourselves, as we authentically are.

Lisa

Re: Masculinity Movies

…James listening in on Lisa and David's conversation,…smiling and nodding vigorously in agreement :-)

Re: Masculinity Movies

James! Great to see you're around!


Lisa, I loved Sideways, too! That was a really fun movie. I also really enjoyed the cinematography and soundtrack in places, but I can't find the video clips of it anymore.

That's amazing that this phenomenon is so apparent in your workplace. Do you find that women can get away with being assertive in a way that men can't? Do men ever get pounced on when they do get assertive?

Sometimes men will join in with that in order to undermine male rivals.

It probably has something to do with what sort of behavior gets approval. But also I think that men want women to be happy, and they think the way to make them happy is to let them be in control and step aside.

I am optimistic, too, that it can get straightened out and that it already is, but it's really going to require some people making an issue out of it and really being assertive about it. Cultures don't change easily; some people will always feel threatened by change.


David

Re: Masculinity Movies

David: “But also I think that men want women to be happy, and they think the way to make them happy is to let them be in control and step aside.”

I really resonated with this observation! :-) 

James

Re: Masculinity Movies

Jame's, great that these matters have you nodding your head vigorously. So do tell us, what's your favorite movie listed on the database there, what would you add, and why? :)

David, Am I reading that above comment correctly? - My translation being: Men generally think that letting women be in control and stepping aside is what they want, as it makes them happy? (if so, in at least one sense it partially makes me gasp for air! :)

David: Do you find that women can get away with being assertive in a way that men can't? Do men ever get pounced on when they do get assertive?

Yes, absolutely. If a man attempts to be assertive, he is instantly ridiculed, accosted, interrupted, and removed from whatever the task at hand is, for being inept. That's before he's even attempted to follow through with his instinct to be assertive in a situation.

I have closely observed the consequence of this pattern, which are withdrawal into a depressive state, despondency and redundancy in their perceived role, hopelessness, and complete contempt for their women colleagues, who I would take a wild guess to say, they consciously and unconsciously blame for their general feeling, depleted well being and lack of worth.

If there is no opportunity to exercise aspects of their inherent maleness, and to offer the qualities that we typically associate to being male, they become ill shells. Which probably makes them all the more likely to get bullied by pushy partners, and not experience any sort of quality intimacy, because they've given up ALL of their power. Of course, those who have truly surrendered into this situation were their partner is the relational equivalent of a dominatrix, probably still get something out of this crazy unhealthy sacrifice. What - a regular headache at least! But it's far from funny. And of course, I am musing with a generalized wild guess there.

I think you are right when you say it will require some folk making an issue out of this, and being assertive about it. Y'all good people are free of course to start with making that step right here! :)

Lisa
 

Re: Masculinity Movies

Hi Lisa

I actually don't like any of the movies on their list so far. I don't find them life affirming nor affirming of masculinity.

The Fountain
Simply incredible. Integral score 10/10.
Man faces fear of his own death and of those he loves and comes out the other end of it. That takes courage.

The Thin Red Line
Simply incredible. Integral score 10/10.
Men face fear of death and find different ways of dealing with it, including sacrificing one's own life for the sake of others. The scene where he floats… no but that's giving stuff away!

Changing Lanes
Men dealing with real life choices big and small, sometimes making the right choice, sometimes making the wrong choice.

Schindler's List
Man uses his capabilities for a greater good.

One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest
Men defeated by a fucked-up system, uplifted by a man who could see through it and who said Fuck You to it. Amazing performance of a dominating, uptight, scary woman in charge of cowering men. Remember Thatcher and her Cabinet? It's a fascinating and unhealthy dynamic!

Erin Brokovich
If we're gonna interchange the words “agency and communion” for “masculine and feminine”, then here's a physically sexy feminine woman showing all the heroic traits associated with the strong masculine. The key thing is she is a human being driven to serve the higher good, for greater truth and justice, even if it means personal sacrifices. To me this is one of the highest qualities of the masculine, not exclusive to the male of the species.

“I think you are right when you say it will require some folk making an issue out of this, and being assertive about it.”
I think Pelle and David Deida  are already making that fuss!  :-)

James

Re: Masculinity Movies

I actually don't like any of the movies on their list so far. I don't find them life affirming nor affirming of masculinity.
 
“Life affirming” sounds like the feminine view of a masculine issues. Every movie on the Masculine website and every movie you listed James has a dark side and positive time side to it, which is 4 out of 5 times the case in most movies.

I find several titles suggested on the Masculinity side actually of high quality

Into The Wild
Man On A Wire
Gladiator

I had suggested “Band Of Brothers” and here will suggest “Saving Private Ryan”. War films. Anything but life affirming…right? But these two films do not glorify war, but show it in its raw naked reality.

Band Of Brothers not only shows the graphic reality of violence of war (as does Saving Private Ryan), but the inner workings of male relationships including authority, respect, pain, sacrifice, loss, ethical dilemma etc (as does Saving Private Ryan). They both also include the interplay of women in war in various roles as well.

Along the same vein of Schindler's List

I don't know, is this just a food fight about ones taste in film, or can we be objective without our personal preferences getting in the way of deeper issues being portrayed in the films.

James, the movies you listed are great by the way, I don't understand why you are putting down other great films listed on this website.

“Into The Wild”…really?

…nor affirming Masculinity

What is it about these films that do not affirm masculinity in the way that the films you suggest do?




Dan

Re: Masculinity Movies

Hi Dan

Thanks for the comments.

Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers. Great suggestions. Love those movies. I'd disagree that they are not life affirming. I see men overcoming great obstacles in their commitment to a greater cause - defeating Nazism. To me that is  life affirming and, as you say, they also show war in its raw naked reality. The two are not mutually exclusive for me. Maybe we have a different idea of the meaning of the phrase life-affirming. For me there is nothing particularly feminine about looking for the positive growth that can come out of the struggle.

Thanks for making me look twice at what I had previously posted. What I meant to say was “Of the few movies that I know on the list, I don't particularly like any of them”. (BTW, has the original list shrunk slightly? Right now I can only see 2 movies that I know, Fight Club and American History X. I'm sure there were more on the original list that I had seen )

I wouldn't say I was “putting down” those movies; for me it was more an expression of personal taste (this meaning was confused of course by my lack of clarity in pointing out that I've only seen some of the listed movies, not all of them. Sorry! Into The Wild could be an amazing movie but I wouldn't yet know!)

Of the two I mentioned, it seems to me that the main male characters in both American History X and Fight Club are severely dysfunctional. I just see them suffering and getting deeper into their suffering. They may go down into a dark place, fine, but they don't actually come out of any particular tunnel do they? That's what I find most moving and inspiring in movies. In “real life”, plenty of people go into dark places and never come out, and there are plenty of movies that show this. Have you seen “Funny Games”? Wow!

I just prefer the more “life affirming” ones. (There's that phrase again.) Maybe I'm too attached to my feelgood factor “happy endings”!

Dan: “can we be objective without our personal preferences getting in the way of deeper issues being portrayed in the films.” Probably impossible to be completely objective about movies methinks, but that's no reason for it to be food fight :-)

James

Re: Masculinity Movies

James, I think you're looking at upcoming reviews, and not the ones that have already been reviewed.

Re: Masculinity Movies

Lisa said: “Men generally think that letting women be in control and stepping aside is what they want, as it makes them happy? (if so, in at least one sense it partially makes me gasp for air! :)”

What exactly about this description makes you gasp for air Lisa?

James

Re: Masculinity Movies

Hey, I like the movies you listed there. Nice descriptions! One flew over the Cuckoos Nest is an all time fav.

You know, I think the way that is phrased is what it is. Its in the control part… If it means be in control of herself, taking responsibility that's one thing, if it means being controlling, which is what I have been witnessing in these examples at play in work - that's quite another, as is being controlled. I think I just grooved into a little “whats the context” trip. I don't think that's what was meant however, though I thought it was a little confusing in view of these type of common negative stereotype role reversals we see.
I think I am clear on that now. :)   The trip was making me gasp for air!

Lisa

Re: Masculinity Movies

What I meant by saying men think that women want to be in control is just how I think many men must interpret feminism: women wanting to assume what are traditionally male roles, making decisions, leading, so they feel if they perform that role they will be stifling women's growth and aspirations.

That's the message of early feminism, that men have been frustrating women in this way. So, in order for them to be not so brutally repressive they must step aside, not compete so much, etc.


Lisa: Yes, absolutely. If a man attempts to be assertive, he is instantly ridiculed, accosted, interrupted, and removed from whatever the task at hand is, for being inept. That's before he's even attempted to follow through with his instinct to be assertive in a situation.


That sounds just dreadful. But I think it's fairly common. Is it just women doing the accosting, or are other men getting involved in that as well?

It's just a dreadful predicament. Who is running the show there, in the most powerful positions, men or women?


David

Re: Masculinity Movies

I think it was Joseph Campbell who said we moderns no longer have functioning myths. Been reading the Faludi book Rick recommended and it brings this home quite well! So I guess movies are a good modern way to use mythology. The problem is are the roles they reference really available within society? There's the rub.

Re: Masculinity Movies

Hey,

I'm glad that there's a whole discussion going on simply because of my status update :)

James, great suggestions for movies to review, I've sent the link to this thread to Eivind.

David:
But also I think that men want women to be happy, and they think the way to make them happy is to let them be in control and step aside.

This is spot-on David. Wow, you just summarized the predicament of the postmodern man and “the nice guy”.

Lisa:
I read a blog yesterday - which I intend to post on this thread when I can find it, that looked at men & sexuality, how it has been portrayed through the porn industry, and how that is 100% detrimental to how men really are

I'd love to read that blog post if you can find it Lisa.

/Pelle

Re: Masculinity Movies

Hi Pelle, Wow, I just went on some mission trying to find that! Here it is - there are several parts within that are well ripe for further discussion, - I would be interested in what people think?
***
By - Dr. S. Hite, visiting professor of gender and culture at Nihon University in Japan, has lectured at universities around the world including the Sorbonne, Harvard, Columbia, Cambridge, Oxford and the London School of Economics. Dr. Hite is the author of 12 books, including the groundbreaking, The Hite Report: A Nationwide Study of Female Sexuality, which has sold more than 48 million copies, and The Hite Reader (Seven Stories Press, 2006).

The Uncelebrated Beauty of Men’s Sexuality

Pornography, it seems to me, presents a highly distorted image of men. While my research with thousands of men shows a different picture of “who men are sexually,” pornography imposes a rigid ideological view on male sexual feelings, expression and behavior. They are not the monolithic beings depicted in most porno images, nor do they find their authentic selves in pornography.

Ironically, pornography seems friendly to men — more than to women — but its underlying message makes fun of men. Subliminally, it tells men that their sexual expression is ridiculous, base, insensitive, even grotesque. Visually it frequently makes men look ugly and coarse, foolish and unappealing.

Who hasn’t seen porno images? They’re all around us, in magazines, on the internet and even in fine art. The makers and distributors of the images must believe men like them, that they are generally making “what men like,” because they market it to men, and the industry is growing. Although few women buy porno, most industry spokespersons claim that “the number of women is increasing”; any gain they refer to is nominal.
Do most men really like pornography? Do they find it laughable or do they think to themselves: I wish I could be like him, lucky guy?

It’s difficult to know whether men like the way they are portrayed in porno. If you’re male, you’re raised with the idea that if you find something revolting, you must look it straight in the eye and say: “Wow! I like it! I’m bad!” Boys are not supposed to shy away from vulgar things; doing that makes them “girlish.” Therefore, the more disgusting a pornographic visual is, the more a “real man” should not show disgust. But, privately, do most men really think they are “like that,” or do they experience their sexuality as more subtle, more diverse, possibly more erotic and even spiritual? Of course, not all men look at porno, so why is it generally considered for men? Is it because women supposedly don’t need to jerk off? Or because the material puts men on top as “the winners,” denigrating women as “the losers”?

In porno, there is a subliminal text. Men are almost always presented as predators with erections, almost as rapists. One of the unspoken clichés of porno is that the man must show no feelings, but follow a strictly physical sexual scenario.

Porno portrays men having pleasure focused on erection and ejaculation, rarely seeking eroticism, or other purely sensual activity, for its own sake. And porno rarely presents men in love or sexually active in a non-focused way. It does not show men seeking full-length body contact or needing to hold another person and be held.

BEYOND BIOLOGY
Sexual exuberance, desire, elation, love not satisfied by orgasm, fantasy — these states are about something other than a biological drive to reproduce the species, the “male sex drive” that in pornography is central to sex. Today, male sex drive as a concept has taken on a mystical ring. During the late 20th century this term was used so often that it became “unquestionable truth” and is now assumed to be biological.

But is it? Logically, if men supposedly have a biological drive to “thrust,” then shouldn’t women have a complementary reverse “drive” to open? Or is the entire idea of “sex drive” a fraudulent ideological category masquerading as scientific fact? What about the other sexual states that men experience, which are not seen in porno? Are men as mechanical and aggressive by nature as they are depicted? Society has tried to insist that a real man should “get hard” at will, whenever appropriate, meaning in a private situation with a reproductively aged female, but it is impossible to will an erection into being.

In truth, the penis is a delicate part of the male being, responding with exquisite sensitivity to every nuance of emotion a man can feel. Erections come and go in men, during sex and during sleep. Most men say they seek desire, not the mechanical means of orgasm or creating erection. Desire and arousal are the pleasures that spread through the body; orgasm, after all, can be attained alone during masturbation. The beauty of male sexuality is not so much about erection. It is about all the gestures and subtle meaningful body movements, including the ups and downs of erection — tumescence and non-tumescence, de-tumescence and re-tumescence — ways in which the body speaks.

These movements represent a man’s beauty and personality and are very erotic. Pornography as we know it does not represent that diversity of expression. It often pretends to be avant-garde by being shocking, passing itself off as incredibly open when compared to the old value system of prudery. But it is not revolutionary. Such images do not address a more valuable and interesting view of who men are sexually.

What is male sexuality? Why is it so closely identified with intercourse in a reproductive scenario?
The answer involves understanding centuries of enforcement of the idea of sex as an animalistic physical desire to be controlled by putting it into a reproductive context within marriage. Yet this ideology contained the seeds of its own destruction by furthering the idea that men’s sexuality can only be freely experienced outside the family.

THE MIND-BODY SPLIT
In my research, it seems that the split between “body” and “mind” or “soul” — as pornography depicts — is the crux of the problem men experience, not whether or not they are in a reproductive relationship. The definition of sex created to go with our social order and family structure, originating about 3,000 years ago, has been focused on the reproductive act. This detracts from other activities because we have evolved from a culture that wanted to increase reproduction to one in which most of us use birth control. Men’s sexual nature is “polymorphous-perverse,” as a New York Times book review characterized the picture of men that emerges from The Hite Report on Male Sexuality.

Men in my research show great diversity. Take, for example, masturbation. This can allow a man to express his sexuality without a focus on reproduction or coitus. As one man puts it, “I have more or less two sex lives, one with my wife and one with myself.”

Men say they enjoy masturbation because they can fantasize about whatever they want and there is no pressure on them to perform. During masturbation, in my research, men stimulate themselves in many more places than they do when with a partner.

And this one: Anal stimulation. In my research, many men express a hidden desire to be caressed and “penetrated” — possibly by a finger — anally, since just inside the anus in men there is proximity to the prostate, which when stimulated can result in orgasm. However, most men do not explore the various feelings they wish to express during sex with a partner, especially a female partner, but instead try to follow the reproductive scenario depicted in most pornography.

Our sexual acts have been channeled into too limited a form of expression; sex could be more interesting if it was not always focused on one scenario: “foreplay” followed by “penetration,” the high point being fucking, coitus or “the act.” The appearance of Viagra and the fear of HIV have increased rather than decreased the focus on erection. For example, many men are nervous about having to put on a condom and consequently losing their erection or their sexual desire. Not only are men asked to use condoms, they are expected to provide clitoral stimulation to orgasm in many cases.

But many men cut short foreplay because they are afraid they may lose the erection which they have been taught is necessary to enjoy sex and which would be “shameful” to lose. More men could reach much higher peaks of feeling and arousal if they did not feel anxious about how they should behave sexually.

WHAT’S BAD FOR THE GOOSE…
How do men feel about how they are depicted as treating women in pornography and about the violence to women shown in most pornography?
Most men feel perplexed, and wonder why this can excite them. Although pornography frequently denigrates women — showing women beaten, black and blue, and liking it — it also denigrates men. It cheapens and brutalizes their sensibilities, destroying their possibility of personal sexual discovery, blocking their power to express themselves with others and implanting clichés such as “a real man is the one with the biggest, hardest erection.”

Pornography’s implication that men are beasts whose underlying unchangeable natures make them likely to be violent to women is misleading and dangerous. Porno’s messages bisect men psychologically, showing sexuality as separate from emotion and the soul.

This can affect men in a very negative way, causing them to think that they are two people — the sexual animal and the thinking, spiritual individual. Pornography is above all propaganda — an ideological construct used to direct men toward a certain style of reproductive sexual activity, to tell them the kind of attitude they should have towards sex and women.

Women in pornography serve the basic purpose of legitimizing the male sexual expression. In fact, pornography presents the most negative outdated versions of who men are to the rest of the world. If we change our basic views of what sex is, then we will contribute to a better world, a new world.
Source

Re: Masculinity Movies

Thank you, Pelle.

What makes it particularly troubling is when an interpersonal structure is built in which men are expected to step aside and where they are thought to be exhibiting bad male behaviors if they don't step aside (while the same behavior can be exhibited by women without comment).

That's when we really need your great, important work and a men's movement: to create a new interpersonal structure in which the best qualities of both men and women can come out.


James, Dan, great movies. Actually, I have seen very few of them, but the ones I have seen are great.

I think what's important in the movie is that it raise questions and present interesting situations, not so much whether the men are actually exhibiting integral-level behavior or anything.

I will suggest one: Rocky! A tough, persistent guy with a tender heart. His job as debt collector for the loan shark, which apparently had him breaking people's bones if they didn't pay off debts, is questionable, of course, but he was a softy there, too, letting the one debtor we see in the movie off the hook.



Pelle, I also really liked your blog about Obama. I agree that there are some troubling things about it. It could be an area where Obama is still a little Green, or perhaps he is not Green in that area but just doing it for his old friend Valerie Jarrett, because he depends on women to get reelected, and because if he didn't there might be an outcry.

The whole thing could be politically motivated to a large extent, with an eye on his reelection campaign.

It would be very hard for him to say the sort of things you say in your blog. It would be political suicide for him, probably. The best he could do is probably as you seem to suggest: simply advocate for a men's movement alongside the women's movement, but even that might elicit an outcry from feminists if they percieve any sense of competition between the two.

Re: Masculinity Movies

David:
What makes it particularly troubling is when an interpersonal structure is built in which men are expected to step aside and where they are thought to be exhibiting bad male behaviors if they don't step aside (while the same behavior can be exhibited by women without comment).

Yes. Do you have any examples of this? (I intuitively know what you mean but it would be great to get a specific example)

I agree that Obama is in a tough spot. Doing anything at all for men could easily be perceived as an attack on feminism, which it also would be. Acknowledging male hardships would undermine the careers of many professional feminists, and they will not back down without a fight.

Re: Masculinity Movies

Lisa! Thank you so much for taking the time and trouble to find that article.

I've just read all of it and I think it's a very important perspective that the author adds. Perhaps it is a “healthy Green” perspective in integral terms, but that makes it no less important. The whole spiral needs to be healthy, and it might be tempting for men to bypass this important step on the ladder unless we are aware of this perspective.

Re: Masculinity Movies

Lisa, thank you for posting that article. I just read it today. It is a very good thing to deconstruct, I think.

One thing that comes to mind is that Wilber once wrote that boys are interested in, at least in part, “mechanical” sex. I can't remember where he wrote that, so I can't give the context.

At any rate, that's probably true if we're looking at the upper right—the biological male self is programmed to reproduce, continually! It's occurred to me recently, though, how advertisements, movies, television, pornography, etc. reinforce this biological obsession. You can hardly do anything without seeing some sexually suggestive picture.

But it's also true that men have other dimensions, as the article states, but men can be denigrated for that, can't they? Men are “dogs,” sexually obsessed, etc.—as defined by the feminine value sphere at times, not by all females, for sure, but understandably so at times (because they are the object of the biological expression) and then also understandably because they can be frustrated in relationships themselves, disappointed, used, etc.

So it's understandable that they would denigrate male sexuality at times, but when it becomes a cultural trait that wouldn't be helpful for boy's/men's self-esteem. To a certain degree it is something to be accepted, worked with, appreciated, etc. It's understandable that women would use denigration of male sexuality to gain leverage because men will wield power unfairly in other ways, but I think we need to shine a light on all these things if we're going to move into higher structures.

I also recently saw this, which you might find entertaining. It's at the same time perhaps a denigration of male sexuality but also a helpful mirror or deconstruction for men who want to become aware of these particular kosmic habits.

It could be seen as an example of men being portrayed unjustifiably as weak and dependent and women as strong and independent, but they have done other videos where just opposite is the case, like this one.



Pelle: Yes. Do you have any examples of this? (I intuitively know what you mean but it would be great to get a specific example).


I began thinking in terms of structures after reading this the other night from the guru-and-pandit discussion from the women's issue:

Re: Masculinity Movies

Thank you for those elaborations David, they were valuable to me.

Re: Masculinity Movies

Hey Everyone, I have knocked on the door and David let me in. 

So…I'm Eivind, the guy who set up the web page all you good folks are discussing. I'm glad to see that you have found it interesting, regardless of any initial tagline-induced laughing fits. (those are good too). 

I have been thinking for quite a while on which angle to approach this issue from without being too heady. I wanted to do something that felt more embodied, leaving the academic stuff to others. So I think looking at men and masculinity through the lens of movies was quite a decent choice.

Now that you are talking about the site, do you have any suggestions as to what you'd like to see there? I see you have already suggested some movies - why don't you post them on the site?

Good to tune in with you all.

Eivind

Re: Masculinity Movies

James, I think you were a bit quick on the trigger there. Did you dislike my upcoming movie reviews so much that you didn't even check out the current ones?

I will explain why I have picked those on the list on the front page. I'm honing in on a warrior theme with many of the movies I'm going to be doing, as I see that the warrior spirit, the Warrior archetype, has been virtually wiped out from the male population. Immature soldiers have taken over, and masculine aggression overall is projected out in movies and other outlets, as opposed to being used in service through its incredible ability to ground and energize a man. Men are essentially hunters. Denying this can lead to nice guy pathology.

Now, many of the characters in these movies are not exactly role models, but they are connecting with something that all of us educated, middle-class castrates are not - raw masculine power.

You are probably all familiar with Deida. To move from 2nd to 3rd stage Deida, you need - as a man - to re-embody some of that raw masculine power of the 1st stage. But now with the sensitivity and compassion of 2nd stage as part of the mix. This understanding is incredibly important.

I gotta say - many “spiritual” guys I meet are practicing spirituality as an escape. I did. There's the idea that if only I meditate enough, everything will be nice and cosy. Even when we find the notion silly, we still often practice it. Essentially, we start running away from life, into spiritual lala-land. All of the archetypes are important, but the Warrior archetype - in his embodied form - is primary for the man who is to transform spirituality from escape to proactive penetration of the world's ills. Guys, even 2nd tier people succumb to this. I believe this to be true.

That's why I'm going to feature many films with the darker side of the masculine in the time to come. It's not enough, I believe, to just focus on mental development. We need physical too. In fact, Ken Wilber has been eager to hammer this in. The meditator's only weapon against an aggressive jerk is often his way with words, but secretly his most important weapon is his arrogance (“check him out, so low and immature, whereas I am the enlightened one”). This is unacceptable. If he doesn't master the physical, that contributes to his shadows. That is why I believe the true meditator must also be a samurai. I have just come to this conclusion and I'm trying to live it in my life. 

“How much can you know about yourself if you've never been in a fight?” reads the tagline of Fight Club. It's something to contemplate. From a 3rd stage perspective.

Re: Masculinity Movies

Hey Eivind

Your website and the whole ethos behind it is brilliant. Thank you for starting it. Your whole personal story here echoes mine almost exactly. I've been working with Deida's material for almost a decade.

As I explained to Dan earlier on in this thread, I was not clear enough in my initial comment. What I meant to say was “Of the few movies that do I know on the list, I don't particularly like any of them”. The only ones I knew were American History X, Fight Club and Gladiator. And also, on revisiting the site, as Pelle pointed out (thanks Pelle) I was confusing the current and upcoming lists. My apologies for confusing the issues by not being clearer in my expression.

You mention further along in this discussion: “Can you kill with love in your heart? I think so.”  In those 3 movies I that do know off your list, I didnt see any of the main characters getting close to understanding what it might mean to behave in this way. To use Deida terminology, they seem stuck in 1st stage stuff. It's uninteresting to me to look only at the darker side if there is no growth that comes out of it. I enjoyed the gritty scenes and the metro-male stereotype-busting scenes in Fight Club for example, but  in addition to this I didn't see any deeper growth in the main character as a result of him becoming in touch with this darker masculine side. And I didn't see him being of any service to those around him.

Also, although I know what you mean, please don't include me in your description of “us middle-class castrates”. To me this is an unhealthy, unhelpful choice of phrase. As you say in one wonderful entry on your Gaia blog, you are a man. Me too. Let's use those words.

I'm signing up for your newsletter as I think you are doing something that is culturally significant.

James

Re: Masculinity Movies

So James, happy to connect and glad your penis is still firmly attached. Perhaps they are not choice words, but that's how I write when I get fired up. I'm not aiming for the politically correct, but what has juice in it. In my world, any reaction is better than indifference.

I *DO* think most contemporary men are energetically castrated. Question is - do we focus on that or do we merely skip this unfortunate fact and start working to improve on things.What do you think?
 
Glad to have you on board with the newsletter, and I'll definitely look into doing some of the movies you suggested.

By the way - Maximus in Gladiator is in my opinion an absolute icon. I don't see him as a first stage man, although as a Gladiator you certainly have to engage in 1st stage ways. Curious to see how you reached that conclusion.

Eivind

(boy this Gaia threading system is a bit awkward isn't it?)

Re: Masculinity Movies

Eivind: “glad your penis is still firmly attached.” Ha ha!
(Maybe you're using poetic licence but just in case, and as a pedantic ex-English language teacher, I can't help but correct this one - check this as opposed to this!)

Eivind: “I *DO* think most contemporary men are energetically castrated. Question is - do we focus on that or do we merely skip this unfortunate fact and start working to improve on things.What do you think?”  I understand where you're coming from. This lack of connection with a more ballsy embodied way of being is a serious issue. My only point was that you were generalising it too much.

Maximus seems to be mostly focused on revenge. Understandable given what happened, but I don't see that as 3rd stage.

James

Re: Masculinity Movies

Yes, poetic license. That's the one.

Revenge is certainly on Maximus's mind, but from my reading of the movie and the character, he is not out for blood, but for justice. Commodus is an immature and immoral boy, who is not fit to rule. Maximus knows the extent of Rome's suffering at his hands. Maximus for me is not just a betrayed warrior, widowed husband and father of a murdered son. He is also the father of Rome, because Marcus Aurelius entrusted him with her people. 

Yes, there is revenge, as I willingly admit in my writing on the movie, but that is secondary. First and foremost there is duty and honor, and setting Rome right with the Lord. His self-restraint given the circumstances is in my opinion incredible, and I would never be capable of replicating such behaviour in the unlikely event that I was put in a similar position. 

Re: Masculinity Movies

Thanks, I'll have this in mind next time I watch it.

James

Re: Masculinity Movies

Elvind: I have been thinking for quite a while on which angle to approach this issue from without being too heady. I wanted to do something that felt more embodied, leaving the academic stuff to others. So I think looking at men and masculinity through the lens of movies was quite a decent choice.


Elvind, I think it's a fantastic idea. It's a fun way to do it that will easily inspire discussion and contemplation, and it will also show us how gender is portrayed in movies and television, as well as other mediums.

Once we start doing that a little bit we will probably never watch another movie again in the same way and will also be much less susceptible to how our culture shapes gender roles and that sort of thing.

We might try a thread looking into a particular movie at some point or least bringing up particular scenes from movies that everyone has already seen.

I will post a suggestion or two on your site.


Elvind: Essentially, we start running away from life, into spiritual lala-land. All of the archetypes are important, but the Warrior archetype - in his embodied form - is primary for the man who is to transform spirituality from escape to proactive penetration of the world's ills. Guys, even 2nd tier people succumb to this. I believe this to be true.


Yes, I think this is very important, a spirituality that integrates action in the waking state, a contribution of love, one's gifts, etc., and I mean that in a broad sense, one that accommodates all types rather than some kind of type absolutism.



Elvind: That is why I believe the true meditator must also be a samurai. I have just come to this conclusion and I'm trying to live it in my life.“How much can you know about yourself if you've never been in a fight?” reads the tagline of Fight Club. It's something to contemplate. From a 3rd stage perspective.


Could you elaborate on this? What sort of thing are you referring to?

Re: Masculinity Movies

Yes, I can elobarte, David. Thank you for giving me the opportunity.

I was thinking the other day - a little thought experiment - what if you were to pit the 100 most evolved people on the planet today against the 100 least evolved people on the planet today against each other in a gladiatoral battle for survival. I came to the conclusion that I wasn't too certain who would win. In fact, I think there's a fair chance those 100 psycho-murderers would eradicate eons worth of development in that fight.

This troubles me. Really, it troubles me a lot. It's hard to communicate exactly what I intuit here, but it definitely has to do with developing the physical line of development as well as the Warrior archetype. I think there's something that changes about a man when he knows martial arts. I'm by no means an expert, but I know that practicing jujitsu has humbled me greatly, and made me realize that those people who are vastly inferior to me in some lines of development, are vastly superior in the…ahem, jujitsu line of development. All the judgement I've carried around for all these years have come to the surface through martial arts, and I've now reached the point where I can allow myself to submit to the authority of a person who is superior to me in martial arts, when he otherwise isn't in most other spheres of life.

Now, this random guy pummeled me in the face the other day. He was a junkie, severely traumatized and angry at the world. I tried to make contact to see if I could help and he pummeled me. I had not expected that at all, so by the time I knew how to react to the situation, he landed another fist. 

I felt in myself after the first impact something rise in me, but I cut it off, because I didn't trust it. I realized in retrospect that it was the primal fight or flight response. Instead, I started reasoning with him - I got a curious response of compassion as opposed to wrath - and that's when I got hit a second time.

Some of my Buddhist friends told me what a great thing it was, showing him compassion even as he split my lip. I, on the other hand, realized that my reaction was vastly irresponsible. What if my loved ones were with me? What if he pulled a knife and just barreled through me, leaving those I was there to protect defenseless? This troubled me greatly and I realized that my response, while compassionate, was not aligned with the highest truth I felt in the moment.

In retrospect, I would rather have charged, thrown him to the ground, as I was screaming with loving wrath “Here you are walking up and down the platform saying how everyone in the world wants to hurt you, how we are all like SS soldiers on the West Banks, and the first nice person who tries to connect with you, you fucking attack? How the fuck is this going to make things better? Look at all these people! They're afraid of you!”. And while pushing his arm towards breaking point, saying with absolute authority “You WILL start accepting the responsibility for your actions”, pushing closer and closer until he yielded.

Maybe it's just because the Warrior energy is waking up for real in me these days, but I cannot see how there would be another more skillful response to this situation. Passive compassion, in another situation, would've got me and my loved ones killed. Warrior compassion is the only responsible action.

It was a huge learning experience, and I immediately tuned in with the Fight Club tagline. And I realized that the answer for me is that while I can know a lot, I will not know how to respond to blind violence unless I train myself every day to respond to it with a clear head and an open heart.

This I now consider an essential part of my spiritual practice.

Re: Masculinity Movies

Eivind, great to see you here.

I really like the conversation between you and David there, - I also appreciate your raw honesty in which you feel you didn't protect yourself adequately, and presented the wrong type of compassion in that moment. The 'cut off' you speak of I feel hits on something incredibly important that does indeed need to be reintegrated somehow.

In fact, what you said really reminded me of an old discussion we had here in a thread called -  'Jonestown: The life and death of people's temple' - I don't know how much you know about that, but here is the poignant snippet I was thinking of, which talks about the (non) actions of a man called Tim Carter. Particularly poignant because this is indeed one of those penultimate situations when in a flash, everything has gone pearshaped, and there is a simple conundrum, does one act (even if it's violent) or not (and unleash greater violence by the non-action) ? :

” …he had a gun and just watched as they injected his baby with poison and then his wife. He said it occurred to him to shoot Jim Jones, but then he decided not to. Perhaps shooting him would have done nothing but get himself killed as well, but it still doesn't seem right that a father would leave his wife and son there to be killed and escape himself. And it might have saved a lot of people if he had shot Jim Jones in that moment.”

Lisa
 

Re: Masculinity Movies

Good example of what I'm speaking of Lisaji, and nice to meet you.

There was a sentence in my previous post that was misleading given the context: “I got a curious response of compassion as opposed to wrath”. This is referring to my response. I became compassionate as opposed to wrathful, although that point did not seem to pass you by.

We men cannot allow to get cut off from our balls. We need to reconnect. Or else, as you point out Lisa, loved ones - indeed the world - may suffer from our inaction, and we will not be able to live with ourselves.

Can you kill with love in your heart? I think so.

Will look at the thread later on.

Eivind

Re: Masculinity Movies

Interesting discussion going on here Eivind - James - David - Lisa.

I just wanted to let you know that I've used the article Lisa posted to write a blog post.

/Pelle

Re: Masculinity Movies

What can I say! I thank Pelle who's been working on the subject for a while and Eivind also. This is a much needed work that is going on.

I have many philosophical thoughts to share on the subject, but I'll stay on the creative/subjective/UL perspective.

I have other ways to connect with the masculine aspect than movies and that is music. It has the advantage to be carried with you and give you a boost wherever you need it. It's also less directive in the sense that you can fantasize about it. I find myself less passive with music than with movies.

I have a long list of masculinity songs, but the one I'd like to share today is “Black Wings” from Tom Waits. It's unavailable on youtube (except a cover, which is…well…not so good).
Here are the words. But do get the song, it's on Bone Machine. Amazing music.
(Tom Waits/K. Brennan)

Take an eye for an eye 
 a tooth for a tooth
Just like they say in the Bible
Never leave a trace or forget a face
Of any man at the table
When the moon is a cold chiseled dagger
Sharp enough to draw blood from a stone
He rides through your dreams on a coach
And horses and the fence posts
In the midnight look like bones

Well they've stopped trying to hold him
With mortar, stone and chain
He broke out of every prison
Boots mount the staircase
The door is flung back open
He's not there for he has risen
He's not there for he has risen

some say he once killed a man with a guitar string
He's been seen at the table with kings
Well he once saved a baby from drowning
There are those who say beneath his coat there are wings
Some say they fear him
Others admire him
Because he steals his promise
One look in his eye
Everyone denies
Ever having met him
Ever having met him

He can turn himself into a stranger
Well they broke a lot of canes on his hide
he was born away in a cornfield
A fever beats in his head like a drum inside
Some say they fear him
Others admire him
Because he steals his promise
One look in his eye
Everyone denies
Ever having met him
Ever having met him


A few words that spring up to my mind:
Invisibility, indiference to praise or blame, beyond good and bad, independant, acceptance of loneliness, riding with the moon which is the feminin archetype (and also unconscious and anima), without fear but feared for his unpredictability and closeness to it's intuition.

Amazing song.

Patrick

Re: Masculinity Movies

Hi Eivind,

Men are essentially hunters. Denying this can lead to nice guy pathology.

–

  That’s interesting. A friend who was into the Native American Church associated with a Sioux medicine man. The Sioux were a warrior people but were forced onto the reservation. They went from animal hunting rituals to rituals for hunting peyote. They actually would shoot at the peyote with a miniature bow and arrow. I have even received instructions from a Thai monk for beginning meditators to “hunt the breath”. The idea being that you chase after it. There is a certain engaged fun in that. But maybe I have what you are saying a bit wrong. That is, who are you mad at and who do you want to fight with? You really can’t stay in this mode forever, it will eat you in the end. I remember this wonderful poem in Playboy about 20 years ago called the Baddest Ass in the Bar (If memory serves me). Basically this scarred bar fighter was giving away his title to this young newcomer without a fight. After many years of fighting he was tired of it. He explained how many times his nose and hands were broke, how many teeth he lost, etc. etc. and proclaimed to the newcomer that he was now the Baddest Ass in the Bar as now the old fighter only wanted to finish his beer in peace.
  I am almost finished reading Stiffed: The Betrayal of the American Man by Susan Faludi. Her basic overall point is that the Red/Amber transition and what it promised has died off in America. Orange/Green killed it off and those Amber roles are no longer available en masse in our culture. I think the movie the Last Samurai is making a similar point about Red. The warrior is no longer needed or no longer has an elevated status except as a mythological relic. Which does not mean we cannot connect to it but to what purpose and what end?
  Fear in any form is our common enemy and that is what needs to be taken head on. Its fun and engaging to take that fear head on in sports or hand to hand fighting etc. But it really is a bit more deft than that and will hide or bide it’s time and get you when you are physically weaker, or not aware etc. Meditation when done correctly will help you to see the triggers of your fear. Whether those triggers are fear of unpleasant sensations or fear of dissolving into the infinite, etc. So, the budding Samurai is first offered discipline to deal with his anger, once anger is mitigated then fear can be approached directly with a calm deliberateness. Otherwise this all seems a bit Quixotic as there are a hell of a lot of windmills to tilt your lance at!

Re: Masculinity Movies

You Buddhists, always too quick in analyzing it all away. (Shakes head). You have to connect with the hunter before you let go of him, otherwise you'll just disappear and leave the problems of the world for others to solve. I mean you can do that, of course, but don't be surprised if you find yourself buying a ticket for yet another Samsara round. :P (“Tomorrow they will hunt you”, said the twins. Remember this?)

There really ARE a lot of windmills to fight, but from my perspective, that's no reason to throw the lance away. Pick it up, e, and start your fight! Dulcinea and Sancho Pansa await. And think about about all the gold and the glory! :-D

Re: Masculinity Movies

:-)

Well I used to run around the prairie with a bow and arrow shooting at wild things but I gave that up when I was 12 after I killed a few critters and did not quite like how that felt. A few years back Tuesday night was my group meditation night. Afterward I would go off and play ice hockey in a mens league late at night. My dharma friends got a kick out of that! I told them it was easy getting calm in a temple but bringing that to the ice rink was a very good challenge! So what to do…pick up the hockey stick and go around to every rink in town taking care of all the bullies? Is this what I should do? It seems the world’s issues are systemic and a lance is really not going to solve the world’s problems. Wasn’t WWII the war to end all wars?

Re: Masculinity Movies

You are both so funny. :) :) & christophe, 'Dulcinea and Sancho Pansa await' - !! you are priceless brother.

Re: Masculinity Movies

:-) OK since you like to laugh here is a joke that may apply to what we are talking about…

—

FINE EXPLANATION

      
The wife came home early and found her husband in their bedroom making love to a very attractive young woman.
         
And she was somewhat upset. 'You are a disrespectful pig!' she cried. 'How dare you do this to me – a faithful wife, the mother of your children!  I'm leaving you. I want a divorce right away!'
         
And the husband replied, 'Hang on just a minute love so at least I can tell you what happened.' 'Fine, go ahead,' she sobbed,' but they'll be the last words you'll say to me!'
         
And the husband began – 'Well, I was getting into the car to drive home, and this young lady here asked me for a lift. She looked so down and out and defenseless that I took pity on her and let her into the car.
         
I noticed that she was very thin, not well dressed and very dirty. She told me that she hadn't eaten for three days.
         
So, in my compassion, I brought her home and warmed up the enchiladas I made for you last night, the ones you wouldn't eat because you're afraid you'll put on weight. The poor thing devoured them in moments.
         
Since she needed a good clean-up, I suggested a shower, and while she was doing that, I noticed her clothes were dirty  and full of holes, so I threw  them away.
         
Then, as she needed clothes, I gave her the designer jeans that you have had for a few years, but don't wear because you say they are too tight.
         
I also gave her the underwear that was your anniversary present, which you don't wear because I don't have good taste.
         
I found the sexy blouse my sister gave you for Christmas that you don't wear just to annoy her, and I also donated those boots you bought at the expensive boutique and don't wear because someone at work has the same pair.'
         
The husband took a quick breath and continued - 'She was so grateful for my understanding and help that as I walked her to the door, she turned to me with tears in her eyes and said,

'Please .. Do you have anything else that your wife doesn't use?

–

The damsel in distress is the young woman.
The lance is …well, you know!
The dragon is the man's wife.

:-)

Re: Masculinity Movies

e, my eyes are stinging, that was a very tragic story! :) :)

Wasn't it though really? ? Cough.., Oh jump into the confusion, with a bit of Zappa satire - the best: Honey don't you want a man like me? Frank & his band buddies make such an art form out of those songs.

Re: Masculinity Movies

Elvin, I think you make a really important point about men reconnecting with strength drives after Green. If they don't, then lower memes will carry the day.

I think it's also not a bad idea to work on self-defense, and it's a good way to keep in shape, train the mind.

However, I think your response to the junkie on the tram/metro platform was the right one.

For one thing, you stepped into his life, right? The guy may be a psychotic, unable to control himself, and/or he may have felt that you were pitying him or putting him down. I know that you weren't, but I believe some types feel that way and actually do not want sympathy (such a type is recognized in homeopathy).

I am reminded of a story a friend once told me, an Andrew Cohen student who is a psychiatrist. One of his fellow doctors was once punched out by a psychotic. The doctor had been waking him up, and the guy woke up and punched him, laying him out.

Of course, the doctor had no right to hit back, right? That's the sort of thing psychotics do. I think you would have had the right to defend yourself in that situation if the guy kept attacking, but I think if we stop someone on the street and he punches us, the thing to do is walk away.

It also reminds me of my Tae Kwan Do class in junior high school. On my first night a senior student told me about the teacher's philosophy: that some teachers felt that fighting was only right in self-defense but that this teacher felt it was also a good idea to fight to defend your honor.

That didn't seem right to me; I couldn't buy it, and a few weeks or months later that senior student walked in with a black eye. He had gotten into a fight, and I imagine he had been trying to defend his honor.  :)

Only in self-defense, I think. The thing about physical violence, I believe, is that it's like knocking over a domino—you don't know how many other dominoes will fall over, and after you knock over one you lose a lot of control over the situation.

But I believe, as Krishna said, that there is a time for defense; I don't think we should be spiritual wimps.

Re: Masculinity Movies

Hey David, you are probably right that I did the right thing not fighting back, although…hmm I'm not entirely sure.

It feels like such high-energy situations are such tremendously fertile opportunities for rapid learning. There was little learning in it for the guy, other than the fact that i didn't hit the floor and didn't get angry with him, which was perhaps unexpected.

I'm not sure what is the right thing in such a situation, which is why the inherent learning potential is so great. That doesn't mean that I want to be punched out anytime soon, though. But I'm glad it happened.

Eivind

Re: Masculinity Movies

Lisa, I have been reminded of that Jonestown situation as well. The guy surely let his family down by bringing them there and then again when he had a chance to save them. He might have saved hundreds of people had he acted, including his family, though he might have lost his own life.


Elvin: Boy this Gaia threading system is a bit awkward isn't it?


Yes, it is. There is a feature toward the upper-right corner of the page that may help, though—the “unthreaded” mode. That will lay everything out in chronological order.

I have asked them why they don't make “unthreaded” the default setting, but they haven't given an answer; they just say they will keep the “threaded” mode as the default. I can't imagine why it would be better to keep the threaded mode as the default setting.

Re: Masculinity Movies

It seems like a fine balance the whole reconnection to strength. And it needs to transcend and include the physical. It would take a certain aptitude (& altitude!) to reintegrate that properly. I wouldn't be worried about any of you lot, that's for sure. You lot are going to lead the way! :)

I think some of the most prolific displays of male strength that are cut off and in need of reconnection are the verbal combination of power & intellect.  This is where some real pain resides when I witness communication in really feminized men who have deeply lost touch with this part of themselves, because a) they have tried to become other than themselves to fit in with the times or because that is what's culturally expected of them at this moment in time -  and b) they are undermined for displaying these qualities that were once acknowledged as typically male, so have attacked themselves and dissolved them etc…

Re: Masculinity Movies

That's a very funny song, Lisa.  :)

Here he is deconstructing hippy men.

Re: Masculinity Movies

Ha! That was classic, David. :) :) A top one to sing along to. :)

His sharp & hilarious lyrics crack me up & the musics is too good. :)

Love the chorus: 'How I love ya, How I love ya
                         How I love ya, How I love ya Frisco!' :)

Re: Masculinity Movies

How about Fathers Day movies?
Baseball films

Field Of Dreams

The Natural

Re: Masculinity Movies

I have a little theory of mine, on the subject of masculinity and here it is.

Liberation of woman, I believe, did not happen because they managed to organize themselves, but more because man was stripped of his power. Power was transferred to technological tools, or machines. 

God as a man, the Father figure, disapeared with the end of the catholic church's power. The father figure, in the family, lost it's importance simultaneously as the church lost it's grip on society. It started with Galileo, but one can say it was finally consumed with the french revolution, in 1789, and the ensuing laicisation of society.

Science took a definite part of that power.

There followed an amazing developpment of technological tools in the following centuries, up till now.

Now, we can see that power is given to technology. In schools for example, teacher's can't manifest power or authority anymore. But you have vidéo cameras that do the job. The lists of example is endless.

woman tend to accuse men, specially in the woman liberation groups. But that is a fundamental mistake. We both are now living in a society which is terribly violent and agressive towards us. Companies, surveillance tehnologies and the like, have stripped us from our power.

In Switzerland, the police just started a camapaign which motto is ” more control for your security”. This is so symptomatic of that violence which is directed at us, for our own good. The idea is simple: the world is very dangerous, so we are going to give you security, by limiting your freedom and your power, and we are going to control you more. This will give you security!

Example: the bailout. It happened alos in Europe. So these companies get our money. We are beeing told it's for our own good. And then, in an act of supreme violence, they fire thousands of workers. Those guys paid with their taxes, and then get fired. But it's for their own good.

Neither woman nor man has authority nowadays. It has been transferred to an impersonal realm: the machine, the multi national companies, which have no face.

I suspect that to regain power, first we need to stop opposing man versus woman. This just divides the strenghts.
Then we have to dig deep into organicity. The physical strenght of men is an aspect of it, but I fear that will not be sufficient.

To regain organicity, is for me to regain a certain power. Physical strenght? ok. But also thought strenght. That will be regained, I believe, by limiting the media input. for me it's taking the shape of: spending less time on the computer, no more radio or Ipod, no more newspapers, no TV, no dvd's. What happens then? thinking happens. Thinking and beeing. And not to worry: we still know everything, strangely.

From there, certain things can flourish, such as creativity, desire for real relationship, thoughts on the world and on one's life.

I would call that depth. And that is for me power. Yes, depth is power, depth is authority.

Men and woman's relationship to depth is different. That would be interesting to developp here.

P.S. and don't eat that yellow snow!

Patrick

Re: Masculinity Movies

Interesting theory, Patrick, and much of it rings true with me.

Robert Bly talks about in his work how the father-son relationship was broken apart with the onset of the industrial revolution. I think this is a factor we need to take into account with your theory. Technology has replaced much of that relationship, and there's often a huge technology/generation-gap between the generations in the families. Since mastering technology brings such power these days, the wisdom of old age has diminished in value, and the authority of parents has suffered as a result.

Of course true wisdom has little to do with technology and much to do with life experience and knowing oneself. I'm afraid that our addiction to technology and media, as you suggest, is adding to our technical wizardry, and subtracting from our wisdom.

Eivind

Re: Masculinity Movies

I'm glad you liked that, Lisa. Yes, the music is really too good.  :)

I am impressed with the way he saw through the hippie pose. I don't know any other songwriter in that era who saw through it in a trans way.

I have always loved the drumming on that song. He also had some good singers in those days. Do you know his voice was one octave higher when he sang that song? A year or two later he was performing in Germany, Berlin, I think, and some jealous boyfriend tackled him while he was on stage, sending him flying into an orchestra pit. He was badly hurt, including an injury to his throat.

I will check up on the story to see if I have it all straight.



Patrick: Power was transferred to technological tools, or machines.


That's very interesting, Patrick. I hadn't really considered that angle. I am sure there is a lot of truth to this, and also a loss of dignity in general as part of an impersonal system that in large measure is exploitive.

The other thing, which we have discussed in different words, was that men began to be considered just plain wrong or at least immature, like a cave man, etc. for demonstrating power. In some cases the man was, certainly, but it was all taken a little too far.

Society also shifted, with postmodernism, to more feminine values, yes? Not that postmodernism is necessarily feminine (I think there are both types), but in many cases it became that way.

And one big aspect of this, one big casualty: the truth. So many things became more important than the truth of the matter, and speaking the truth (or rather, speaking toward the truth or towards greater truth) became uncivilized, undiplomatic. Of course the status quo has always resisted change; there is nothing new about that.

Daniel, those are good movies. How about Bull Durham?

How about the Bad News Bears!

Re: Masculinity Movies

Thanks for your reply, David.

“The other thing, which we have discussed in different words, was that men began to be considered just plain wrong or at least immature, like a cave man, etc. for demonstrating power”


This phenomenon is certainly true. But I believe its a simple case of revenge from the part of woman, and a way of maintaining powerlessness and control on men from those who have power. Men is squeezed between women and a society which is violent and puts them in powerlessness. The immediate problem for me is manifesting humanity more than power. It's a common problem we men and women face. Maybe men should help woman understand his state of powerlessness we face and call for a shared power. Displaying power will, I fear, antagonise some woman and be discarded by society. The wound is deep in them. Aknowledging powerlessness is a kind of power. Calling for unity is what we need. This unity will help us face the challenge of this multi level crisis we're facing.


If I use Wilber's model, I'd say that power has been transferred to the LR Quadrant. It has neither the face of man nor woman. It is de-humanaized. That is my biggest fear, that we keep thinking it's a man versus woman problematic. It is, for me, a human versus non-human/process/system/statistic/number/machine problem.


Patrick

Re: Masculinity Movies

Patrick: Men and woman's relationship to depth is different. That would be interesting to developp here.

Yes, I agree. It's also in Nietzsche's 'Thus spake Zarathustra'. Here:

“Lo! now hath the world become perfect!”–thus thinketh every woman when
she obeyeth with all her love.

Obey, must the woman, and find a depth for her surface. Surface, is
woman's soul, a mobile, stormy film on shallow water.

Man's soul, however, is deep, its current gusheth in subterranean caverns:
woman surmiseth its force, but comprehendeth it not.–” (18)

Please note the asymmetry. Men and women are different in many ways.

Patrick: That is my biggest fear, that we keep thinking it's a man versus woman problematic. It is, for me, a human versus non-human/process/system/statistic/number/machine problem.

Another interesting thought. I think for women, it's all about the male-female relationship, while for men, it's more obvious that there are Other things out there that demand our attention. War for example. The Fight of a Soldier has little to do with women, but with the Third, the Other. They fight on two fronts: with their wives, and with the Other (pushing the frontier). Women think there's only one front. So everything that stands in their way of their career must be the men's fault.

The solution for this dilemma is given by Zarathustra again:

“Everything in woman is a riddle, and everything in woman hath one
solution- it is called pregnancy.“(18)

After bearing a child, the Third (Other) becomes obvious even for women's minds.
This also explains why 'Career or Baby' is such a big issue with young women.

What do think? Does this make any sense?

Re: Masculinity Movies

Hi Christophe, I read Zarathustra a long time ago and your bringing me back to that period.

I totally agree with you, but I see a fear in me: I fear agreeing with you. The green meme syndrome.

I married a staunch feminist and we had many talks over the years. She kind of changed her mind, although she can't admit it. But she would kill you for this post.

As for me, I agree and it resonate with a conclusion I have come to -subject to change: men has a vision of were things go. I've come to see that women have it less, probably because their focus is somewhere else. They have the capacity to take care of the immediate environment that we don't have, and I mean on every level: psychological, physical, spiritual, emotional.

The other: for men, society and for women, the child. How interesting! I've never thought about things in that way, but it resonate so much.

I will have to ponder on these inputs. I'm going on a retreat for a week, so I'll be back next week.

Thanks for this food for thought.

Patrick

Re: Masculinity Movies

Stretching things a bit, the movie Apocalyptico can be used to show this phenomenon.

We have the power issue: The guy who cannot have children and who gets bugged by his wife's mother. He endures a conflict in his relationship, for which he might not even be responsible - his wife might have a problem, who knows.

He and the step mother end up  captured and there's a scene where the step mother is left to herself and looks him being taken. I thought she was ashamed of not seeing who her real ennemy was: it's to say, that “more evolved” society.

The hero enjoys unity with his wife - ok, he has a child and another one coming. That unity brings him power to be a hero. 

At the end of the movie, he is sufficiently visionary to answer his wife's question:”should we go and meet these people?” meaning the europeans arriving with their ships. He answers no and they disappear in the forest.  He sensed the end of his humanity.

Sadly, we cannot do as he did. We have to face the new paradigm, as we have no place to hide. But we cannot do it without woman or being in conflict with her.

Ok, I stop here.

Patrick

Re: Masculinity Movies

Patrick: If I use Wilber's model, I'd say that power has been transferred to the LR Quadrant. It has neither the face of man nor woman. It is de-humanaized. That is my biggest fear, that we keep thinking it's a man versus woman problematic. It is, for me, a human versus non-human/process/system/statistic/number/machine problem.


That's an interesting point. I think power has shifted from individuals to systems, and there is a downside to that (as things can become dehumanized), but now that I think about it there is also an upside: Having a legal system, a criminal-justice system, and other systems in place saves us from anarchy, from arbitrary, capricious leaders, etc.

Sometimes systems take over and we get mindless bureaucracies, and that's also a problem. Another problem is institutionalized, legal corruption, like special-interest groups contributing to campaign funds of elected officials. In such cases the system actually reinforces selfish behavior rather than providing an incentive to world- or kosmocentric care.

I didn't see Apocolyptico.


If we were to make an itemized list of things integral manhood would include, what would be on that list?

(Also, feel free to start an integral womanhood thread, if that interests anyone!  :) Maybe it would attract some woman.  :) I wouldn't want anyone to feel obligated to do so, just looking after women's interests! :) )

Re: Masculinity Movies

Re: Masculinity Movies

If we were to make an itemized list of things integral manhood would include, what would be on that list?

You wrote it below.

(Also, feel free to start an integral womanhood thread, if that interests anyone!  :) Maybe it would attract some woman.  :) I wouldn't want anyone to feel obligated to do so, just looking after women's interests! :) )

Re: Masculinity Movies

oops, don't mind me. just listening in and enjoying the discussion.

james

Re: Masculinity Movies

Patrick: That is my biggest fear, that we keep thinking it's a man versus woman problematic. It is, for me, a human versus non-human/process/system/statistic/number/machine problem.

Christophe: Another interesting thought. I think for women, it's all about the male-female relationship, while for men, it's more obvious that there are Other things out there that demand our attention. War for example. The Fight of a Soldier has little to do with women, but with the Third, the Other. They fight on two fronts: with their wives, and with the Other (pushing the frontier). Women think there's only one front. So everything that stands in their way of their career must be the men's fault.

Did you listen to Ken's 'Integrating the battle of the sexes' low down? Here
I think unless we can look at the whole picture, what we've got to say shows more about the points & places our views are fixated (which is a very good thing for the development of awareness) and less about how we actively go on to weave our collective selves through this complexity.

Re: Masculinity Movies

Hello David. I'm not in any way a lover of anarchy and I agree that organization is important. I just feel we're going through a crisis and that there's  the possibility for us to slip into tyranny (going backward from green meme) or make the shift to turquoise. If we are going to go further, we need to re-integrate a certain amount of uncertainty and insecurity. It's part of life. The focus on security is for me the paved way to tyranny. Security with acceptance of the fundamental fact that life is unsecure.

That would then be my first item on the integral-manhood list:
security within insecurity, or insecurity within security. It's close to a koan such as effort without effort.

E and James made me laugh. Skillful. Second item?

Patrick

Re: Masculinity Movies

I'm starting to have fun. Gimme More Masculinitieeee! NOW.

Left Hook

Roundhouse Kick

Uppercut

and… Finishing Move!

Re: Masculinity Movies

Patrick: I just feel we're going through a crisis and that there's  the possibility for us to slip into tyranny (going backward from green meme) or make the shift to turquoise.


Yes, there are various tyrannies we have to look out for as we develop, governmental, corporate, structure (like political correctness).

I tend to be more trusting of government than most, it seems. I am much less trusting of corporations because tend to be always trying to increase profit whether it is in a fair, honest way or not.

I actually don't mind empowering government to spy on people for the sake of national security. I think there should be safeguards, and it might be abused on occasion, but I think the benefits outweigh the risks.

There is in the U.S. a segment of the population that is extremely mistrustful of government, and that makes pragmatic or integral policy making difficult.

It does seem to be men, mostly, who are so distrusting of government. They seem to be the ones buying the guns, building the bunkers, forming the militias, stocking up food (though it's far from a mainstream practice).

But of course responsibility for security and providing has generally fallen to men; they are wired up to do that, so it shouldn't be surprising that they would tend to be more into survivalism than women, if that is the case.

I think you make a good point about insecurity. Tolerance for insecurity is definitely an aspect of higher-stage development, and if we don't have it we will simply be acting out of fear, which I don't think is necessary.

It's kind of a fine line, subtle work, living with insecurity or taking wise preventive action.


Here's a real man, Christophe.

Re: Masculinity Movies

Aye, that Rocky guy is a true Pirate fella indeed. ARRRRRR!

Re: Masculinity Movies

Hi, Elvin. Glad to see you back.

Well, the way I was figuring it was like this: If a guy stops us on the street and hits us, we have the right to subdue him (hitting him if necessary) and call the police. But if we stop a stranger on the street and engage him in conversation, and he hits us, then we better walk on, as he might be a psychotic or paranoid or something and not capable of doing any better, and he never would have hit anyone in that moment if we hadn't stopped him.

Yes, I think you're right: those things are huge learning experiences, for sure. Whenever something really gets to us (like being hit obviously would) I think we have an opportunity to be aware of parts of ourselves that we wouldn't normally have.


David

Re: Masculinity Movies

Hey David, I think there is truth to what you say. Iitiating contact with someone who was clearly deranged was perhaps not the best thing to do, but I did it in service of the many others who were there and felt uncomfortable with the things he was saying.

Or maybe I was the one who was uncomfortable? Huh… :-)

Eivind