Psychic phenomena!

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/31092984/

This is the new Gerard Senehi show, really fresh, came out today. I'd like to invite you all to take a close look at Gerard, starting exactly at 01:55.

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I hereby declare that Gerard's psychic abilities are … REAL!!!!!

Yes, indeed they are!

Now, the telekinesis is another matter. Probably magic tricks.

But when he guesses the names and words people have thought of and written down  … there is no other explanation: it is true psychic ability. How else would he do it?

Of course, that psychic phenomenon is different though perhaps related to Aurobindo's psychic being and Wilber's deeper psychic.

He was very careful this time to point out that he wasn't claiming what he was doing was real, wasn't he? But I think the guessing is real psychism, if that's a word… . Yes, it is a word, but it means something different:

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Thanks for the link to Gerard Senehi. My friend MO Riddiford -who is student of Andrew Cohen - told me about his work and described his work in a chapter of the book “Upping the Downside”. Dealing with clarity of purpose.

Aurobindos psychic beeing and Wilbers deeper psychic deserve further exploration. Mike Murphy did an early attempt in his book “The psychic side of sports”.

I appreciate that Gerard Senehi is making clear statements on his homepage what his work is about. A brillinat entertainement and infotainement too can create psychic effects:):)

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Did nobody look at Gerard at exactly 01:55-01:59? No comments?

(David, I have written down a word. Now use the psychic energies and find out.)

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I lost track of the time the first time I saw it, but I saw it this time. That was pretty obvious!

I saw some things like that in the other video, but nothing quite so blatant as that. The other editors may have edited that sort of stuff out, because there were a lot of cuts in some of the other videos.

Okay, Is, the word you have written down is: baseball.

It doesn't seem likely that you would write down baseball, though. But that's what came out!

I almost said baseball glove; that was what first came to mind.

Okay, it's your turn.  :)

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OMG!=?!=!?!?!?! Baseball? HOW ON EARTH DID YOU———–








Ok, just kidding. :P The word was “Accident”. Better luck next time!

I think your word is “Cheese”.

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Well, let's not get discouraged. These things can take time; the psychic also develops!

Let's try this: Think of a word in a language other than English, and then we will try not to guess the exact word but the referent.

It will probably be easier if it is fairly concrete, not too abstract.

Okay, I have a word in a language other than English.

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I have written down a word in japanese. Now open up those chakras and tap into those psychic energies! Bzzzzzzt!

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I would like to play…how does this game work?

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Okay, Is, I'm going to take my time with this. I'm going to wait until I know.  :)

It might help if you remembered the word from time to time.

I once took a weekend psychic seminar, early on in my seeking—the Silva Method!

I basically took it because I had recently taken a weekend seminar from a very charismatic individual who was a Sai Baba devotee, Nigel Taylor. A very good guy. He had been to the Monroe Institute to learn about psychic abilities.

He also said that Sai Baba's vibhutti really brought big changes in a person. He said that once when he went to see Sai Baba, Sai opened his palm and sprayed his whole head with vibhutti and that he had never been the same since.

He had some of Sai's vibhutti with him, and at the end of the seminar we were each given some, to put between our eyes. I was really under the impression that it did something to me. I was very mellowed out after that, like a state experience.

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Oh, you'll like this, Is! A Sai Baba miracle! He produces gallons of vibhutti from an empty jar!

My understanding with Nigel is that Sai produced it out of the palm of his hand, that it came from inside his palm somehow.

Here he does it!

I notice he is wearing long sleeves.

Here you can see the ash trick exposed, starting at 2:30.

But I swear, I really felt something!

I think the power of the mind is very important in these things, the placebo effect. Wilber once asked Cohen whether he thought Poonja would have had the same effect on him if he hadn't been projecting on him beforehand, if he had thought he didn't have a good character or something.

That said, I don't think it is all in the mind with people like that at all. But the placebo effect alone is probably capable of bringing about equally big changes.

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Anne, great! I was hoping other people would join in!

Here's how it works: One person thinks of something, preferably not something too abstract or difficult, an object, for example, writes it down, and then the other person enacts their psychic abilities to guess what it is!

I have been thinking that, if it works, it could actually be a valuable game to develop psychic abilities. This is the sort of thing people practice in psychic workshops.

One twist on it was thinking of a word in a language other than English as Gerard did in the video. The woman on the show thought of “bateau,” and Gerard said, “something floating on the water,” which I thought was pretty good.

I think it could be very valuable to develop psychic abilities like this, but of course used only in the highest of contexts for the greatest good, truth, and beauty.  :)

Okay, I have now written down a word. Now you can raise your psychic antennae and find out what it is.  :) Also, you can write down a word for me, and we'll see if I can guess it.

Is, I have nothing for your Japanese word yet. We can wait a little longer. It is perhaps throwing me off that you told me it was a Japanese word. I'm thinking of that kind of sushi made of egg—

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brother?  emphasis on b and r.

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David,

This could be fun.  I only have one request, it seems to me that in playing this game there must be a mutual receptivity and willingness to give to all.  Now I am sure that because you started this game you have agreed to this but I still find it important to mention.  When we find each other we also find the ways in which the other contracts - it seems like a good practice that allows us to open to all reality naked and vulnerable.  Do you agree? 

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David,
What I got was hallelujah

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Tom, are you trying to guess someone's psychic word?  :) I can give you one if you like. :)

I'm not really getting the emphasis part. Are you suggesting that the b and r in the beginning are emphasized or the b in the beginning and the r at the end? And how would emphasizing it like this affect the meaning of the word?

In other words, what are you trying to say!?  :)

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I was trying to guess your word.  I saw b and r, and brother.

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David, just wanted to say that when you make your psychic guess - if you're wrong, don't blame me because I'm a “non-believer” or something, as all psychic believers do. I'm seriously thinking about the word. I can tell you that it is an ordinary object, nothing far off. (And it has nothing to do with Japan, I could also say.)

So go on now, time to test if all these people are right or not. If mental energies exist, you should be able to pick them up. (Ok, we're halfway across the globe, but a couple of months ago I was in a group - in the same physical room - and doing things like this - nobody succeeded.)

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Tom, let me try giving you a word. Okay, now you have a word.  :) I have written it down.

I wonder if it's making it more difficult that I've now given out more than one word to more than one person.

Is, try sending me the word.

Also, I'm not saying everyone is born with the ability to do this. I think it is probably something that needs to be developed in most people, though some people seem to claim it came upon them spontaneously. Gerard said he became aware of it when he guessed the cards a friend was holding when they were teenagers, and his friend accused him of cheating.

I had one experience as a young boy that really seemed to be psychic. At summer camp I was walking through the woods on a path all alone, and I started saying the name of another camper in my head, or his name just started repeating in my head—and then that camper appeared on the path coming from the opposite direction. I hadn't seen him before that.

Why should something like psychic powers seem so unusual or far fetched? Think of the abilities we have now and the abilities of the earliest creatures.

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David, the word many came to mind.

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I like your game, I reckon if it works, it wouldn't matter how many words you had incoming and outgoing. :) Really. I agree it's not far fetched at all, what you described up there David, happens at least once or twice a day to me - it is the same with a friend of mine too, Jane. We call it 'P (psychic)-mail.' :) As a joke.

I was sitting in a random cafe, in a totally different town one day sipping coffee with my dad, when Jane's name flooded in. I walked out of the shop, turned right, looked out and there she was - looking out for me. She'd just had the same thing, and we laughed about the p-mail. It's cool, and a cheap way to keep in touch with friends. :) Of course, I am still developing it.

I will put a word out there for anyone of you to pick up, it's in a foreign language. If any images come to mind, say.

Happy practicing!

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“Gerard said he became aware of it when he guessed the cards a friend was holding when they were teenagers, and his friend accused him of cheating.”

I see absolutely no reason why he would have “psychic abilities” when he's a cheap trickster on all other things he does. Just take the “pen on the bottle”-trick he did. Only these smiley, American news-profilers are gullible enough to believe in it - can't they figure out that he's fecking blowing on it?! And with the “move glasses”-trick … I almost get angry when I see the people gasp in amazement and immediately accept that he is a wizard. I mean: you can see the wire in between his hands!!!

Magic tricks. All of it. Ok, I know it can be rough to live in the modern and post-modern world, but that doesn't mean that a regress back to Magenta will solve anything. This new age culture is seriously one of the most pathetic occurences in the history of human beings.

(Still sending the word to you, David. I'm taking this very seriously. Even though I know that when you fail you'll come up with some lame ass excuse.)

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Dawid, send me a word too.  Write it down and think sending it to me.

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I expect most, if not all, of what Gerard is doing is showman ship and conventional “magic.”  But I do not discount psychic phenomena altogether.  This is admittedly based on my own experience, but I personally feel that a “psychic” explanation for certain of these experiences is the most compelling and logical one – not the most magical, feel-good one, but the most adequate. 

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Hi Bruce

You said: “But I do not discount psychic phenomena altogether.  This is admittedly based on my own experience,”

I feel the same way. As a fun experiment, would you be happy to share some of the more pertinent personal examples that have led to your current understanding, and I'll share mine, and then we'll see what possible explanations you and I, and Is and others might come up with. What do you think Is? Bruce?

James

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Hi, James, yes, I'd be willing to do that.  Should we do it in this thread or a new one?

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I've started a new thread for that discussion.

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Ok, I've written down your word in japanese as well, Tom. Sending it out into the Kosmos right now. Switch on those psychic antennae!

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Dawid, is the word a single English word you've written in Japanese, or a Japanese word that has one or more English translations?

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Mu!

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Exactly.

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More like the former, I think. But both languages have only one main word for what I am thinking about.

Anyway, the language shouldn't have any bearing on the thought-waves, because I am thinking about what the word refers to, not repeating the word over and over. (But if you want me to do that I can, of course.)

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mystic and travel came to mind

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Tom, I sent you a very powerful message early in the evening; you just might get it now.  :)

I will say: it is an object. All my words have been objects, nouns, nothing abstract.

It's also occurred to me that we could add another wrinkle to the game and put little suggestions in Derrin Brown style (little subliminal-type hints). But let's see if we can do it straight first.


Anne, yes I agree completely. That is great to say. Also, if you can offer anything specific, that is, specific examples of the type of vulnerability and nakedness you are talking about that would be great.

Your word, like the others, is an object, a noun, not abstract.  :)

I just sent you a powerful message about it.  :)




Is: Still sending the word to you, David. I'm taking this very seriously. Even though I know that when you fail you'll come up with some lame ass excuse.


Lame-ass excuse????!!! Me??????  :)


Well, you will be disappointed if you are expecting me to say that there is no such thing as psychic phenomena if the experiment doesn't work. The experiment wouldn't be able to disprove it conclusively, though perhaps it could prove it to some degree.


I will tell you right now the possible explanations I would give if it doesn't work: 1) it is more difficult long distance like this; 2) we don't have developed enough psychic abilities; 3) it is actually not possible and you are right.


There is also another experiment we could try, which I think would be more along the lines of remote viewing: We could actually place a particular object on our desks and see if we can tune in and “see” it.  :)

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“mystic and travel came to mind”

Sorry, the word was ”spring”.

“2) we don't have developed enough psychic abilities”
 
That wouldn't be your fault. I've talked to several “psychic masters” and none of them have managed to read my thoughts. And trust me, I was “sending” the word very clearly and with determination, just like they instructed. (One of them even took my watch and tried to “extract” memories from it. Rubbing and stroking it and with eyes closed, he made like 10 predictions, out of which 1 could perhaps be interpreted as having something remotely to do with me.)

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I saw something like a tube on one end with a screw top, the body had like small windows – model sub or airplane?
What I find difficult is that I cannot connect with you, I don't know your face or even your full name.  I like to picture in my mind some kind of surroundings or even saying your name helps.

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I have to clarify one thing about my last post: There is no doubt at all in my mind that certain types of psychic phenomena are possible. There is a reason Aurobindo and Wilber use phrases like the “psychic being” and the “deeper psychic.”

They are referring, generally, to a certain type of “cognition” that is of a different sort than the usual cognition and which is clearly higher and more inclusive than what came before. This is not what is happening with most of the “psychics” out there, but I do believe that people like Derren Brown and Gerard are tapping into the same basic thing, though they may or may not have realized it as a stage.

I think it can be described as a kind of knowing, but there's also a sense of being lit up in a particular way. Whether it can be manipulated in the way that we're speaking about, particularly long distance, is what is in question for me, though I actually I believe pretty deeply that something along these lines is possible even for us right here!  :)

I think we might make a distinction between “psychic” and “mindreading.” Actually I have experienced a kind of mutual sharing of minds with other people, mostly with Andrew Cohen and one or two of his students, and they talk about that phenomenon quite a bit. I might be able to pull up an example at some point. But still that is a little different than “Guess what I am thinking.”

But when I watch Derren Brown in this video (beginning at about 2:00) it looks to me as though some kind of mindreading as such is possible and can be developed, at least to the extent that it serves some evolutionary purpose. I don't see any other way what he does there can happen, and given what I have experienced myself it seems more likely that it is possible.

Let's try some Remote Viewing:

I have a small table under a desk to my left. There is only one object on that table. Can you “see” it? Can you tell me what it is?

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“but I do believe that people like Derren Brown and Gerard are tapping into the same basic thing”

God… David I don't understand this. How can you believe that either of these men does honest fecking THOUGHT READING (you talk about it as if it was no big deal!) when one of them is a proven trickster and the other openly admits that all he is doing is magic tricks. :S

If thought reading exists, why not immediately go collect Randi's 1 000 000 $, be famous all over the world, have everybody adore and look up to you, revolutionize science, change the course of human history…

“There is no doubt at all in my mind that certain types of psychic phenomena are possible. There is a reason Aurobindo and Wilber use phrases like the “psychic being” and the “deeper psychic.””
 
I think this is an immature way of looking at further mental development. All humans want to have special abilities and powers. Sorry to disappoint, but 3-tier most likely won't transform you into a jedi.

To illustrate what I mean, here's a koan discussion, from this page (my bolded text):

Imagine you are standing along the shore of a large lake with a Zen friend. You look out on the lake and see a rowboat slowly moving across the water. At this point your friend says to you, ”Stop the distant rowboat using just your mind.”
At first you may laugh, or imagine some kind of telekinetic powers, and think your friend is joking. But then you look at him and see that he is quite serious. What in the world is he talking about? He will not explain any further, and the statement troubles you all day.

That evening you go home and meditate, and during the meditation: Aha! You suddenly understand what he was saying.

I do not mean to dismiss the “Aha!” experience, but I will give away the “trick” of the Koan right here. (Not that this does not leave some “Aha!”!) The lake, the rowboat, and the motion all exist in your mind. It does not take any telekinetic powers to stop the rowboat – you only need to stop breaking the world up into pieces. The rowboat is not fundamentally different from the water in the lake, or, for that matter, from you or from the man rowing the boat. Once there is no rowboat, no water, and no motion in your mind you have indeed done as the Koan asks.

Some people may be happy with that explanation of the koan, and that is fine. But that is really an intellectual “explanation” of the koan and does not stop the boat. The idea is to meditate on the koan until you personally experience the dissolving of subject and object. Even if it seems inconceivable, it really is possible.

—

This to me is where the true mental development is at. Positing psychic abilities just seems childish, cheap and pre-rational. Did Jesus really ascend bodily into heaven? Or is it a description of something more profound?

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Is: I don't understand this. How can you believe that either of these men does honest fecking THOUGHT READING (you talk about it as if it was no big deal!) when one of them is a proven trickster and the other openly admits that all he is doing is magic tricks.


I don't think it's as black and white as this. Not everything Gerard has done has been proven to be a trick, and I think Derren Brown is being very clever when he says his psychic experiments are not psychic. (I don't think he would have a show if he said he was a psychic.)

In both cases the evidence is there for you to see. Either those people are in cahoots with them, or they are reading their minds one way or another. I don't see any possibility for suggestion in those cases.


Is: The rowboat is not fundamentally different from the water in the lake, or, for that matter, from you or from the man rowing the boat. … This to me is where the true mental development is at.


That's not mental development at all but cessation of mental processes, horizontal not vertical.

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I have another hypothesis how this mindreading thing works.

I think the Mentalists use a simple psychological techniqe called “transference-countertransference”, known from Psychoanalysis. It requires that the 'Mentalist' has a higher Center of Gravity than the Person who's thoughts are read. (As they say, Jedi Mind Tricks work best with the weak-minded;-). When they start their show, the expectations of the public and the Thought-read 'Victim' raise and build up enough tension for the transference to begin. Basically the Counter-transference tells the mentalist what the 'Victim' is feeling/thinking about him. So if you tell someone to concentrate on a word or something, it should show up in the transference process.  I believe that it might be possible doing it that way. Maybe it could be combined with a Third Eye/Remote Viewing Technique (which are called mental or katathym images in psychological terms) to improve the accuracy.

I think that's at least part of how they do it. Why transference works is unknown (Freud developed it out of Hypnotherapy, so the unconscious plays a role in here, too))  It's not even widely accepted outside of psychoanalytic circles. But who cares about that anyway as long as it works.

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“That's not mental development at all but cessation of mental processes, horizontal not vertical.”

Understanding the emptiness of all persons and phenomena is mental development. What else would it be - some given divine knowledge falling down from the sky independent of mind-structure? Or, if it is simply a cessation of all mental processes, then we would be able to access this knowledge by fainting or being in a coma, but this is not the case.

“Either those people are in cahoots with them, or they are reading their minds one way or another. I don't see any possibility for suggestion in those cases.”

Occam's Razor. What is more likely, that they are: 1) performing some kind of magic trick on them, 2) that they are using suggetive techniques or that 3) they are “in cahoots with them”? (Note: I don't believe nr 3, my guess is nr 1.) Or … that these people are suspending all natural laws observed by the scientific community having accumulated through the centuries, miraculously tapping into some quantum-electro-vacuum-potential-morphogenetically-entangled-superdimensional higher mind-field of unitive kosmic independently existing Strato-Consciousness?

(Btw, its extremely irrational to believe that while 80% of mr Senehi's performance is utter trickery, the remaining 20% is actually real psychic phenomena. I've said this before. If it was real, he would ONLY be doing that stuff, because he wouldn't risk being ridiculed and laughed at if he mess up, as he did big time at 01:55 in this video. If what he did was serious mindreading, as said, it would revolutionize science and change the course of history, not to mention the size of his wallet. Compare the grandeur of that with the triviality and pettiness of blowing on a pen to make it spin. Get real.)

Anyway, I don't need to bother with this. Evidence will tell what is true and what is false. If there is something as true mindreading, someone will eventually claim the 1 000 000 dollars, and demonstrate the ability repeatedly in a controlled setting. If not, mindreading will continue to remain new age bullshit. Whatever happens, dukkha won't occur in me. If it is proven to be false, I rest my case. If it is proven to be correct, I will be happy and fascinated by this new field of knowledge. For you however, dukkha will occur if it is proven to be false - because you are clinging on to these jedi mind tricks.

Until then - may the Force be with you!

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Is, did you see the new thread that I started at James' suggestion?  We're sharing stories of experiences that, for those of us who are unwilling (at this point) to discount psychic phenomena altogether, have been influential on our views, and we're inviting others to offer possible explanations for them (psychic or not).

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Anne: I saw something like a tube on one end with a screw top, the body had like small windows – model sub or airplane?


Anne!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You did it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Proof that it can be done!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The word was: metro.

Not exact but pretty close, right?  What do you think, Is?  :)

Anne, you said a tube with small windows. I think this is a legitimate hit.  :)

Would you like another word, or would you like to try a little remote viewing with the object on my small table under one of my desks (that's to the left, due south of me, if that helps!).

Of course anyone can try for that object.

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sorry David I was not guessing your word! 

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Is: Understanding the emptiness of all persons and phenomena is mental development. What else would it be - some given divine knowledge falling down from the sky independent of mind-structure? Or, if it is simply a cessation of all mental processes, then we would be able to access this knowledge by fainting or being in a coma, but this is not the case.


It's not considered a mental development in the wisdom traditions. It's considered something along the lines of our fundamental mode of existence/nonexistence.

It's really not a clever way of thinking or an advanced mental process, though perhaps such things can help a person realize it or stabilize it. People with not advanced mental processes have had experiences of it (taking drugs, playing golf, as well as while meditating/inquiring), and many realizers have not been so advanced cognitively.

Genpo Roshi said, for example, that all the Zen masters he knew in Japan were Amber. Now, they weren't stupid, I am sure; they probably had good cognition along some lines, but I'm not even sure that is so in the case of all realizers. Some may just have a good heart and a lot of persistence, or perhaps just a lot of persistence.

It tells us something that a drug experience, for example can give someone a strong blast of nonduality, without any kind of analysis or knowledge about nonduality or the wisdom traditions at all. To stabilize it, though, one would need some discrimination, inquiry, analysis, and most likely a lot of sitting, standing, or lying still (though of course active meditations are also possible, walking, yoga, mindfulness through all activities, etc.).


Is: Btw, its extremely irrational to believe that while 80% of mr Senehi's performance is utter trickery, the remaining 20% is actually real psychic phenomena. I've said this before. If it was real, he would ONLY be doing that.


At first I thought that made sense, but he couldn't make a living doing it with just the psychic stuff. He couldn't get on all these shows or get hired for big parties and corporate events. In another economic system or culture perhaps he could go with what is real, if in fact some of it is, but in this one he has to come up with a whole act, a whole repertoire.



Is: Evidence will tell what is true and what is false. If there is something as true mindreading, someone will eventually claim the 1 000 000 dollars, and demonstrate the ability repeatedly in a controlled setting.


Yes, evidence will tell what is true and what is false, so until it does I will have an open mind about it.

Maybe some day someone will even win Randi's $1,000,000, but if it is possible the person would have to have developed it in an extremely strong manner. We wouldn't expect early realizers of the capacity to be able to prove it repeatedly with a bunch of people who will not be open participants and may actually be trying hard to make them fail. If it is real, it would probably be easier to do it with cooperative individuals or with people who didn't have the capacity to undermine it. We know some people are less susceptible to hypnosis and suggestion, right, and that some may be able to fool a lie-detector test?

Of course it may take some time before it is proven. Will we wait for it to be proven and then move with the herd, or will we be trailblazers and discover and explore the new emergences, which will always seem far out and unproven to what is established?

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Awwwwwwww.   :)

So you were guessing the object on the table? Well, I sent the word to you with great power, so maybe that got in the way. No kidding, maybe it did!  :)

Also I made a little mistake and before I went to bed last night placed a manila envelope with a tubular pen on top of the object on the table.

That may have gotten in the way, too, but the word I sent you might have had an effect.  :)

The object on the table now sits there by itself.

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David: “At first I thought that made sense, but he couldn't make a living doing it with just the psychic stuff.”

That is bullshit, David. And you know it.

David: “Yes, evidence will tell what is true and what is false, so until it does I will have an open mind about it.”

You call this statement below an example of an open mind?

David: “There is no doubt at all in my mind that certain types of psychic phenomena are possible.”

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David - re:your word

This is what I experienced: I found you and asked you what the word was, you said you wanted a present, I stood there for a moment or two trying to figure out what I could give you.  Then I said friendship and we both smiled - you said that was the word.

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David: That's not mental development at all but cessation of mental processes, horizontal not vertical.

Dawid: Understanding the emptiness of all persons and phenomena is mental development. What else would it be …

Dawid, I'm with you here.  IMO, what typically falls under the banner “realization” is in no small measure mental development.  I personally don't buy what David refers to as cessation of mental processes … that makes very little sense to me.  Yes, a realized person will typically go beyond a certain form of mentating, but most realized people I've had any association with are absolute headcases: they talk and think and write incessantly, though I do not doubt they spend significant periods of time in meditation or other forms of silence.  And David, though you refer to Amber, etc., those distinctions don't refer to mental development, but to cultural and values development, which is something other.


IMO, mental development should be differentiated from intellectual development.  Though the two are obviously related, mental development, to me, connotes development of structural components that underlay intellectual development.  The latter I consider a function of or structured by mental development.  Most realized people, or at least the more talkative and deeper among them, are very smart, from what I can tell, which to me shows the obvious link to mental development.  Cohen, Da, Wilber, Tolle, Ramana, Nisargadatta, Krishnamurti, Byron Katie—these are all very smart people.


I think in addition to mental development, realization requires a fundamental gesture of will, a willingness to let connotations of what one perceives sink into one's person, or being, or structure, or some such.  I've met lots of very intelligent people who lack the willingness factor to drop the victim motif in life.  The depth that such willingness can reach, however, to me is hard-limited by one's mental development, which is probably the main limiting factor.

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Tom: “Yes, a realized person will typically go beyond a certain form of mentating…”

The way I see it is that the understanding of persons and phenomena as empty of inherent existence is a structural development possible somewhere around, I think, Orange/Green (Green especially) to Turquoise. But, that is only the cognitive part. Then I think that what this cognition “points to” is something that is accessable for all since it is non-conceptual.

I don't believe this because of faith, but because of the reason that: otherwise it would be impossible to have cases of non-dual realization happening without any former knowledge of “spiritual” teachings or anything similar. But there are many such cases - so we must take this into account.

So, while these “spontaneous” realizers of non-duality might directly and non-conceptually see that there indeed is no separation, they will not understand why that is the case. And if they do try to cognize what is going on, they will do it through the structure they are at.

Re: Psychic phenomena!

Dawid: Then I think that what this cognition “points to” is something that is accessable for all since it is non-conceptual … otherwise it would be impossible to have cases of non-dual realization happening without any former knowledge of “spiritual” teachings or anything similar.


Dawid, I tend to understand phrasings like “non-conceptual” to indicate a very high and very subtle form of mental (in the broadest sense) functioning.  That subtlety, for me, comprises an activation of mental functions—is not but for the mental, and in fact is mental, but a whole-person, integrated mental that does not exclude human life-things like that willingness factor, among other things.  I had my own spontaneous experience at a time when I had been actively pushing away spiritual teachings for 10 years, but when I look back, I see how many facets of my life—directions I travelled, myriad decisions I made, faculties I nurtured, understandings I struggled to attain—combined with a deep-seated willingness to see as clearly as I could and to accept everything I saw.  All of that informed what happened.  It took me two years to myself understand what had happened.  And I'm an educated guy.


I personally think so-called “spontaneous” awakenings are only spontaneous to the underinformed onlooker and the at-first surprised recipient.  They happen, IMO, for deep and complex structural reasons that have IMO critically much to do with structural development, and their later deepening, nurturing and expression are to me likewise structural-developmental.


I personally don't like notions like “direct seeing” (ie, spontaneous awakening absent structure-building) or “something non-conceptual.”  These, to me, ring of a pre-formed reality that one meets absent necessary activating conditions in the subject human person.


I mean, the normal person who's never heard of anything we're speaking of is leagues more developed than any neanderthal who ever walked this planet.  That deeper context is too easily overlooked in most discussions to which I've been privy.  None of that development can IMO be overlooked in discussions of “spontaneous” awakenings either.

Re: Psychic phenomena!

Christophe: I think the Mentalists use a simple psychological techniqe called “transference-countertransference”, known from Psychoanalysis. It requires that the 'Mentalist' has a higher Center of Gravity than the Person who's thoughts are read.


Christophe, I think this a very important part of the picture. It certainly has a lot of relevance for guru-student relationships, and I also think it's a very important aspect of a lot of what Derren Brown does, for example in this video. He chooses the people he works with very carefully and gets rid of those who turn out to be very strong willed, as you can see in this video series (about an hour but worth it).

My sense is that it is one thing that can make it easier for them in terms of mind reading or whatever we would like to call it but that there are other possibilities as well, for example a very cooperative person who is opened up in similar ways.

In addition to that I think there are various suggestion techniques and body-language, facial-expression type stuff that they work with, but I don't see that all of it can be explained by this sort of thing.

I'll attempt more “psychic” explanations to add to these a little later, maybe on Bruce's experience/interpretation thread.

Re: Psychic phenomena!

David: “At first I thought that made sense, but he couldn't make a living doing it with just the psychic stuff.”

Is: That is bullshit, David. And you know it.


Well, actually it is a possibility.


Is: You call this statement below an example of an open mind?

David: “There is no doubt at all in my mind that certain types of psychic phenomena are possible.”


In that sentence I was using “psychic” in the broadest possible sense, to include the phenomenon of the deeper psychic/psychic being and some other things.

Re: Psychic phenomena!

Anne: David - re:your word

This is what I experienced: I found you and asked you what the word was, you said you wanted a present, I stood there for a moment or two trying to figure out what I could give you.  Then I said friendship and we both smiled - you said that was the word.


Anne, that's very beautiful. :) I am very touched. And you know what, it kind of sounds like me! I remember saying things like that to my mother, that I wanted a present. I don't remember exactly, but I don't think I was just wanting something material. Probably more like when I felt she had done something wrong to hurt my feelings and then I would ask for a present to make up for it.

Re: Psychic phenomena!

David,
  There was a bit more to the story but I left much of it out.  I guess I'm not very good at this game, I think I may focus on verbal communication for awhile.  This is an interesting thread so I will keep watching.

Re: Psychic phenomena!

David: That's not to say, though, that a “realized person” will not have mental processes operating 24/7; it's just to say that in the deepest “experiences” of nonduality there is a cessation of mental processes.


David, you're contradicting yourself.  An experience of nonduality doesn't occur when one is under anaesthetic, when conscious mental processes really do cease.  The experience of nonduality fundamentally involves mentality, which is unquestionably operative during that experience.  Yes, a person will not be thinking in the normal manner, but the nondual perception is mediated via mental faculties: it is a mental state called “awareness.”  It's not a feeling arising from a muscle.  And if those faculties are insufficiently developed, guess what, no nondual experience whatever.


If one's mental faculties are operating during nondual experiencing, as they undeniably are, how is one to say those faculties are not operating at a higher-than-thinking frequency, with greater subtlety than is required for normal life-function mental processes?  I do not perceive how you can make that judgment.  It seems a stronger inference to me to say one kicks into a higher mental gear.  An evolutionary analysis points strongly in that direction; so, too, do personal experiences.

Re: Psychic phenomena!

David: “Well, actually it is a possibility.”
 
David, just admit to yourself that you will never be able to do the Jedi Mind Trick without technological aid. Let that idea go. After that, you won't fool yourself like this.

I think we all should put our faith into post-humanism instead of in this pre-modern thinking. For example, if any of you had the choice between using technological means to live indefinately, or to use some kind of vague consciousness ritual in the hope you'll be great enough to traverse some bardo realm into a new body - you would all choose the technological method. Also, remember what Arthur C. Clarke said:

“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”

Tom: “Dawid, I tend to understand phrasings like “non-conceptual” to indicate a very high and very subtle form of mental (in the broadest sense) functioning.”

I hear you. But how do you explain, say, Jill Bolte Taylor's stroke-induced non-duality experience? Don't you agree that if we can induce non-dual experience through brain-stimulation, that the actual direct experience of non-separation then does not require a mind-structure trained in a perticular way?

Re: Psychic phenomena!

Jill Taylor's experience almost certainly arose because her stroke shut off the language centre of her brain—literally killed it, and all her memories, and any sense of a temporal “I,” which resides as a left-brain phenomenon.  Her right brain was then freed to function quite freely, and actively, which it did.  That active functioning is what I'm speaking of.  It's decidedly not not mental.

Most people who have nondual experiences language it (afterwards) by saying the experience is extra-langual, if you will.  When I hear people say “nonconceptual,” that's what I hear them saying.  But turning off the language centre and going beyond a separate self-sense while the left brain remains active (ie, other than by a stroke) requires, by definition, that the left hemisphere remain active.  This “going beyond” is IMO not cessation, just like going beyond “thinghood” is not cessation of mental activity.

Look at it in broad terms: life evolves in humans to create ever higher forms of mentation.  Going beyond—an irreducible feature of evolution itself—is thus fundamentally defined by reference to mental function.  What else could it be?  Bigger muscles?  A tighter ass?  Better abs?

Re: Psychic phenomena!

“Jill Taylor's experience almost certainly arose because her stroke shut off the language centre of her brain—literally killed it, and all her memories, and any sense of a temporal “I,” which resides as a left-brain phenomenon.  Her right brain was then freed to function quite freely, and actively, which it did.  That active functioning is what I'm speaking of.”

Well, there you have it.

Non-duality is defined as the end of any feeling of separation, and the sense of a separate self is the root cause of that separation. If that root cause can be destroyed through non-mental means (a stroke in this case), then it is demonstrated that the general structure of the subject has nothing to do with the actual experience of non-duality.

(But as I said, the subject will still have no clue about what is going on cognitively; they will just experience non-separation. For wisdom to occur, we need analysis.)

Re: Psychic phenomena!

Dawid: … then it is demonstrated that the general structure of the subject has nothing to do with the actual experience of non-duality …


That doesn't follow, Dawid.  The left brain is part of nature; presumably, then, so is separation—I couldn't be typing without everyone else typing unless I am in some real sense separate from others.  Suffering-work IMO requires that one incorporate in a higher ordered structure whatever separation does in fact exist.  Jill Taylor, for her part, had a fully developed right brain, which presumably allowed her to actively generate the experience she had.  That experience is also part of nature.  What's more, she describes choosing to reinhabit the separative left brain world by relearning all those structures.  Why?  Because her life would be richer.

Re: Psychic phenomena!

Tom: An experience of nonduality doesn't occur when one is under anaesthetic, when conscious mental processes really do cease.  The experience of nonduality fundamentally involves mentality, which is unquestionably operative during that experience.


Yes, of course, Tom. The sort of cessation that nondual realizers speak of is different than the sort of cessation we see when a person is under an anesthetic or when their body dies. The remark about cessation was meant to be an opening remark, after which we would move on to a fine-tuned discussion about what nondualists mean by cessation and what they don't mean and the subtle distinctions between states and stages.

It's going to be hard to make those subtle distinctions, though, if you want to reduce nonduality to a product of a structure. At the very least we need to agree that nonduality is a given for all human beings alive today, setting aside its ultimate ontologoical status. The evidence supports that view: childhood experiences of nonduality; drug-induced experiences of nonduality; nondual experiences induced by the sort of thing Dawid mentioned; nonduality experienecs reported by a very wide range of memes, if not all of them.

Unless this is still a discussion about its ultimate ontological status, which I suppose it is at its core.

At any rate, let's just continue to make distinctions. Almaas has an entire section about cessation in Inner Journey Home. Here is the first sentence:

Re: Psychic phenomena!

Is: If that root cause can be destroyed through non-mental means (a stroke in this case), then it is demonstrated that the general structure of the subject has nothing to do with the actual experience of non-duality.


Yes, now I now what you mean by stimulating the brain into nonduality; I didn't really know what you were talking about.

We already have things that can help, like mind machines. There will probably be things that will help a lot more in the future, including greater evolution in each quadrant.

But as you say, destroying the part of the brain that is necessary for the separate-self sense is not the answer; without it a person won't be able to function properly in the waking state.

I doubt there will ever be a point when personal decisions and intentionality in the upper left won't be necessary for nondual plateau states and especially for nondual stage adaptations, but there may come a time when some machine or drug or exercise (like Big Mind process) can pretty reliably give someone an experience of it.




Is: David, just admit to yourself that you will never be able to do the Jedi Mind Trick without technological aid. Let that idea go.


Is, place an object somewhere in your room. Tell me where it is, give it an honored spot somewhere all by itself, and we'll see if I can perform the Jedi Mind Trick.  :)

Also, can you really not see the object that sits on my little table? If for a moment you believed that you could, maybe you could!

Certainly a lot of what people are taking as psychic has nothing to do with the sort of psychic Wilber or others are talking about. Certainly what is happening a lot of time is some sort of meeting with their own shadow or something in the subtle realm, having nothing to do with the other person; Wilber has talked about how difficult it is to really tell for sure what is happening. It's a very easy place to fall into the myth of the given, projection, and the like.

For example, I saw this video last night, in which James Van Praagh (a famous “psychic”) went up to a famous interviewer (Barbara Walters) after the show and said, “I need to talk to you. There's something wrong with your blood!”

He said that she had a high white-blood-cell count. Barbara went to her doctor to get tests, and it turned out that the tests were perfectly normal, no high white-blood-cell count.

I don't rule out intuitive diagnosis; apparently there is evidence to suggest that it can be helpful (steering doctors toward particular tests, for example, because there are hundreds of tests to choose from), but I don't believe it has ever been proven to be 100% accurate, and a lot of times people aren't tapping into anything but themselves.

The story also brings up the question of ethics when it comes to these things, saying, “I am a psychic, and here is what I know about you!”



Is: I think we all should put our faith into post-humanism instead of in this pre-modern thinking.


They can't even cure the common cold or the latest flu strain, and you think they are going to make a new body for you, one that will live forever or at least a long time?

These bodies are 14 billion years in the making! Fourteen billion years of evolutionary work put into them. That's a really long time, a lot of work!

If they can come up with a robot that can take the dust up off our floors in our lifetimes it would be a great feat and one that I would welcome. Beyond that, we might be able to interface with computers in interesting ways.

They're only beginning to understand the bodies we have, though, and even if they were able to come up with a new one, a replica, you would have to work the feat of leaping from one to the other.

And what could make that leap? Only your soul, not anything born of the body because that would of course die with the body, and there would certainly have to be a rigrous yoga to teach people how to do it, one that would resemble bardo-realm yoga, most likely.

Re: Psychic phenomena!

“you think they are going to make a new body for you”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7m3vi_GGdc&feature=fvsr
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0taE4F0Wkhg&feature=related

“Is, place an object somewhere in your room. Tell me where it is, give it an honored spot somewhere all by itself, and we'll see if I can perform the Jedi Mind Trick.  :)”

How about you guess the word I've been sending to you for a week now instead?

Re: Psychic phenomena!

Those are very interesting links, Is.

The second one is especially cool—creating a heart valve out of someone's own tissue so there won't be any rejection. That would really be amazing.

So, we'll be able to go in for replacement parts.  :) And I suppose people will be living to 150 during this century and probably 200 before the century is out.

Imagine that, a 200-year-old person! Think of a person who was born in 1809 still living today and all that person would have experienced and how much the world would have changed in his or her lifetime.

Of course, as 100 year olds these days can hardly communicate or remember that much, the 200 year olds probably wouldn't be able to share much with us until people were hitting 300 in the year 2200.

In any case, it would be pretty wild having people like that around. I think it would be amazing to know what the world was like even in 1900, as well as 2200, of course.

So, Is, you might well live to be 170 years old! You might break the world record! But what then? For the last ten years you'll be on a machine, kept alive only by electric currents, unconscious unless you have mastered the sleep cycle.

But what if it's the case, as some of the mystics believe, that we can build something along the lines of Rainbow Bodies and move with awareness into our next existence? Why not move into a brand-new body on this planet or another or some other plane rather than try to make this one last forever?

The word is: ocean.

Re: Psychic phenomena!

David: “So, Is, you might well live to be 170 years old!”


The theory goes that the rejuvenation science will become better and better every year, and when we are 100 years or something, it will be a hundred thousand times superior to our current methods. So as we grow older, the science becomes better, and because of this, some people claim that we will be able to live up to a 1000.

And that's just in the biological body. Then perhaps we'll be able to move our memories and mental patterns to a non-biological body, and then it will be a whole new game.

But of course, this doesn't mean that dying can be avoided. Impermanence is a law of nature. It just means that aging can be postponed for a very long time. Therefore, spiritual practice will be a vital part of all future conscious beings as well. And in contrast to your idea of a magical rainbow-body that will transport your independently existing Consciousness (which according to you is your True Essence or Soul) - I'd suggest that modern spiritual practice is to recognize that there is nothing that was ever born, and therefore, that there is nothing that'll ever die. This is true immortality.

When Zen Master Fa-Ch'ang was dying, a squirrel screeched out on the roof. 'It's just this,' he said, 'and nothing more.'

Re: Psychic phenomena!

Well, if it's possible I hope you get one of those transhuman bodies, Is. You'd be a great millenarian!

But those first transhuman bodies won't be very good, right? I don't think they will be nearly as good as the body you have now, just enough to keep you alive and function. The first ones will probably be like this. It will be another thousand years before we get something like this.

I don't rule out some rapid advance in technology; it already seems to have started. Brian Swimme said we learned more in the 20th century than all other centuries combined.

But what is the evidence, really, that technology will start advancing that quickly or that people will start living that long that soon?

Also, are we sure that this is simply a journey that began in emptiness, with no self-awareness, and will end that way, too?

I understand that a lot of traditional dharma sounds like that, but with all the stories about out-of-body experiences and the like, could it be possible that such things as transmigrating souls actually emerged at some point in evolution?

Re: Psychic phenomena!

David: “But what is the evidence, really, that technology will start advancing that quickly or that people will start living that long that soon?”

I think Kurzweil's diagrams are pretty interesting to look at.

http://i.cnn.net/money/2007/05/01/magazines/fortune/kurzweil.fortune/kurzweil_chart.03.gif
http://www.theoildrum.com/uploads/28/PPTSuperComputersPRINT.jpg

Then I get the ideas from all the many interviews, conferences and documentaries featuring current and advancing science.

I've come to realize for some time now - and it only makes more sense to me every day - that we human beings (and to some extent the structure of nature, see DNA) are digitalizers. And, our digital information technology seem to grow exponentially. So as our digital technology advance, we all advance, because our dream-life is based on information. And in the dream life, I see no reason why we - like Neo - wouldn't be able to alter the dream as we see fit, because, there is no pre-determined way to live. It is up to us to build that way ourselves. 

Whats more, here's another reason why spiritual practice will be even more important in the future. As long as we can not see that this increasingly digital way of life is really a dream, that it is not real, we will suffer. And the humans of the future are going to want to extinguish suffering, dissatisfaction, sadness, grief, anguish, etc just as much as we do. And this truth is not far off, you only have to dip your finger into a pond to see that there's nothing digital about reality whatsoever. So our “spiritual quest” is to realize the non-digital way of life, and our “human (Right Hand Quadrant) quest” is to boost as close to infinity the digital way of life as we possibly can.

David: “The word is: ocean.”

Sorry, it was ”car”. (Or ”kuruma” in japanese. But I sent out a mental image more than I sent out the word.)

Re: Psychic phenomena!

What does “Required for Human Brain Neural Simulation for Uploading” mean?


Well, I hadn't even thought of car. I think maybe it messed me up that you said it was a Japanese word. How about a little remote viewing?  :)


Is: And in the dream life, I see no reason why we - like Neo - wouldn't be able to alter the dream as we see fit, because, there is no pre-determined way to live. It is up to us to build that way ourselves.


That's a very interesting idea. I have heard some theorists talk that way, too.

It makes sense especially for the leading edge, where the structure is still being laid down, and beyond.

Before that there are some constraints. Children must move into rational, probably through all the stages we discuss. There are probably strong parameters set up up to a point; then they began to open up a little, and then beyond those it is real creativity.

Also there is this: “The lower [holons] set the possibilities of the higher; the higher sets the probabilities for the lower.” [1]

Re: Psychic phenomena!

“Well, I hadn't even thought of car. I think maybe it messed me up that you said it was a Japanese word.”

Nice excuse.

“How about a little remote viewing?  :)”

Sure, I'll be happy to continue until you yourself come to the realization that all kinds of Magenta are an item of the past. And no David, there is no 1-tier Magenta, 2-tier Magenta or 3-tier Magenta, as you try to assert in the other psychic thread.

“It makes sense especially for the leading edge, where the structure is still being laid down, and beyond.”

Yes. That's talking only about the UR leading edge though. Remember there is a leading edge in every quadrant. And as healthy integralists what we want to do is to localize that leading edge in all quadrants and take part in (or become, speaking of 3-tier) it, or atleast be aware of its existence.

-The leading edge in the UL is structures, currently 2- and 3-tier.
-The leading edge in the LL is the value-manifestation of culture springing from those structures; currently the forming trans-national culture.
-The leading edge in the UR is computing/technology.
-The leading edge in the LR is the physical economic-social manifestation of the left hand quadrants + those technological advances + design.

And of course, all these quadrants are closely intertwined, yet distinguishable.

Re: Psychic phenomena!

David: “Well, I hadn't even thought of car. I think maybe it messed me up that you said it was a Japanese word.”

Dawid: Nice excuse.


I was half kidding!



Dawid: Sure, I'll be happy to continue until you yourself come to the realization that all kinds of Magenta are an item of the past. And no David, there is no 1-tier Magenta, 2-tier Magenta or 3-tier Magenta, as you try to assert in the other psychic thread.


We don't have to call third tier psychic if you don't want to. It might just be confusing since that word means so many things, like the word “God.” Probably better to call it “intuition,” but then it would have to be differentiated clearly from more common (but important) forms of intuition.



Dawid: Yes. That's talking only about the UR leading edge though. Remember there is a leading edge in every quadrant.

Yes, I was going to bring that up in your monastery thread. Even if the Abbott or Guru was very high on the perspectives line and state training line, they wouldn't necessarily be as high on the interpersonal or governmental.

And it could be a big carpet burn if you saw higher on the spiral along those lines than they did. They also might not be particularly interested in the leading edge of their governmental lines or interpersonal lines; they might like things just fine as they are. This is how organizations seem to be.

Working on our own leading edge is one thing; working on the leading edge of social holons is another.

Re: Psychic phenomena!

“Probably better to call it “intuition,” but then it would have to be differentiated clearly from more common (but important) forms of intuition.”

In all honesty, can I just ask why you find these supposed paranormal phenomena so important? Why do you invest so much energy into a topic that is so murky and devoid of evidence?

My personal guess is - as with most belief - because of the fear of annihilation, cessation, death. And these paranormal powers may prove to be a way or a key to somehow avoid that ultimate end, and that's why there's so much clinging on to them.

Would this hypothesis be something that you could identify with even in the slightest?

Re: Psychic phenomena!

Well it is not entirely correct that there is no evidence for paranormal phenomena.

For example you might want to take a look at the Ganzfeld experiments, one of the best evidence available for Extrasensory Perception (ESP).

Or take this recent Twitter Psychic Experiment. Psychology Prof Richard Wiseman challenged self-announced psychics to telephatically guess (“remote view”) his whereabouts at a certain time (one could choose from 4 different photos). Results here. In short: It turned out that “psychics” were no better in guessing the right location than non-believers. In fact both groups failed to get even one location right, which is quite embarassing actually. However there were individual people who guessed 4 out of 4 right, and Wiseman is now considering to re-test those “real psychics” in another follow-up study.

Personally I think that ESP is possible, but not in a repeatable and demonstrable way. Especially people who are convinced of their extraordinary psychic abilities should be met with scepticism. Oftentimes they charge random patterns with meaning that does not belong in there. But I believe that for example parents can feel or even “remote view” if their children are in danger, or lovers can feel each other over a distance.

And yes, your hypothesis still seems to fit in those cases, Dawid: Paranormal Powers appear when Death is near. Uh, it's a rhyme. Or when Love is involved. But Love and Death are similiar concepts anyway, eh. :P

Re: Psychic phenomena!

“Personally I think that ESP is possible, but not in a repeatable and demonstrable way.”
 
That claim would not be accepted within any other field of discourse, you know. Suppose we for example said that here we have a brand new medicine that will cure cancer and AIDS - awesome!

-“It totally works. However, we can't repeatedly demonstrate it…”
-“Err, why?”
-“Well, because the medicine works in mysterious ways you see. Anyway, don't be so dogmatic, materialistic and unspiritual, the medicine is really effective! Just believe it.”

You think that claim would anywhere, ever, be met with respect, enthusiasm, genuine interest, curiosity? Only in new age circles are assertions like these feasable, indeed - even celebrated.

I say, all who have managed to integrate Orange into their system should be extremely sceptical when it comes to truth-claims that for some obscure reason can never be repeatedly demonstrated by independent researchers.

Re: Psychic phenomena!

Booooring!

Okay that's not very scientific either :P

What do you want. When it comes to Love and Death, there is no repeatable (sic) and demonstrable evidence. That doesn't mean that these phenomena do not exist.

You don't want to analyize Love away, do you? he he. Believe me, your analytical mind will be blown into a million pieces when you fall seriously in love. oho oho.

SUMO STOMP!

Re: Psychic phenomena!

“When it comes to Love and Death, there is no repeatable (sic) and demonstrable evidence.”

I don't know where you got that idea from.

No repeatable evidence for death? Umh… how about the evidence that every single person that has ever lived has died? :P I'd say that's the most precise evidence in the world; the only certainty in life is death.

No repeatable evidence for love? Sure there is. We can ask a 1000 people how it feels to be in love, and they all will answer in the same way. A physical sensation in the stomach, a feeling of anxious but overwhelming excitement, a feeling that you could do anything for that person, the fact that you can't stop thinking about that person, etc. This is the feeling of love. If an alien came to earth and asked for evidence, this 1000 people-inquiry (done say, 3 times repeatedly in different regions of the planet) would be enough to conclude that human beings indeed have this emotion.

That's the UL evidence. Then there is also the UR repeatable evidence for love in terms of the distinct lighting up-pattern of perticular brain regions in all people who are in love, detectable chemical reactions, heart-rate, galvanic skin response, etc.

Re: Psychic phenomena!

Okay smart boy.

What I was trying to say was that Love and Death are irreversible, and not repeatable in one personal lifetime. Every person dies only once per life, and there's no way back to that particular unique life. Yes? Same with love. They say you got two big love affairs in a lifetime, three when you're lucky. Some people may never fall in love. In any case, a particular love affair is abslolutely unique and cannot be planned, or demonstrated, or repeated. (Well it could be planned, but that's more of a One-Night-Stand than a love story. But then again, the story could start with a One-nighter. Uhm. Whatever.) I'm talking about Irreversibility.

When I say there is no evidence for it, I mean that it cannot be analyzed and completely explained. Love and Death are mysteries, and just because your analytical mind likes to solve and get rid of mysteries, doesn't mean that L&D will just disappear.

I think you are analyzing too much. Maybe this is some Buddhist school of thought, I don't know, and I don't want to meddle myself in these scholarly questions, but if you ask me: then ultimately your analysis will lead you to the place beyond Love and Death that is called Nirvana. Are you really sure that's the place you wanna be? Just asking.

Re: Psychic phenomena!

Is: In all honesty, can I just ask why you find these supposed paranormal phenomena so important?


I don't really think that paranormal phenomena is that important, though we may be defining it in slightly different ways.

I am defining paranormal phenomena as unexplained phenomena, some of which might be “real” (meaning a facet of life that hasn't been understood yet), some of which might be imaginary (like Santa Claus), and some of which might fall under the category of siddhi (unusual skills that can be developed or perhaps appear in some people).

Then we have the notion of third-tier stage development, which we might call supranormal rather than paranormal or something like that. Whatever that stuff is, it will probably seem a little far-out now but someday will show up in tests and be explained to some extent, demystified to some extent (has anything been entirely demystified?).


Is: Why do you invest so much energy into a topic that is so murky and devoid of evidence?


I really don't spend much time at all on paranormal stuff as I have defined it above. I am basically interested in the subject in terms of human potential and things like that. But I am finding the Derren Brown videos very interesting.

In terms of evidence, we are first of all talking about interior-science evidence, like the evidence for love that you discussed: the only way to know about it is to ask people. Our evidence for nonduality also comes from interior science like this, not empirical science, and so with the psychic being kind of stuff (meaning a category of phenomena distinct from popular psychic activity but perhaps not entirely unrelated).

So, there is evidence, using the same interior science that we use for nonduality, for the psychic being. There is much less for the psychic being for sure, but that is because it is, in part, a stage development that has only recently become available to large numbers of people.

But, as Wilber and others have said, it is also something that can be accessed from any stage, kind of like nonduality can be accessed at any stage. Here is a helpful diagram from One Taste (you can skip the “between lives” line if you like). It is a Wilber IV diagram, but I think it could modified easily (on the vertical axis) and still retain validity.


Is: My personal guess is - as with most belief - because of the fear of annihilation, cessation, death. And these paranormal powers may prove to be a way or a key to somehow avoid that ultimate end, and that's why there's so much clinging on to them.


Well, perhaps it's something that we share, only you angle for a techno body, and I angle for a Rainbow Body.  :) (I am not saying I necessarily buy all the Tibetan ideas on the subject, but I like their name for it  :) ).

I actually believe that there comes a time when transmigration makes more sense because one is not identifying with the body so much. At any rate, wouldn't it be a good thing to work on just in case?  :)

And remember: Nagarjuna may also have believed in the soul! It is possible that was really him!

It really doesn't contradict the Middle Way to also believe in a soul or at least developing a soul. We're just talking about a different level of phenomena, of ji.

Re: Psychic phenomena!

David: “In terms of evidence, we are first of all talking about interior-science evidence…”

Hold your horses! No, no, we are not talking about UR-evidence when we are inquiring about new age paranormal phenomena. You new age:ers claim to manipulate the observable world around us (peeking around far away corners, healing, talking to the dead, seeing auras, predicting the future, etc), you just have to look at this diagram to see in what quadrant Wilber places the subtle energies, for example. That's right - the UR. Since this is the case, you can't get away with that excuse. For Right Hand truth-claims, we need Right Hand evidence.

“Here is a helpful diagram from One Taste”

It's a nice looking diagram. I'm just questioning its validity. If this claim was true, it would easily be possible to have someone repeatedly demonstrate ESP in a controlled setting. However, this has never been done.

“Nagarjuna may also have believed in the soul!”

The main target of his entire dialectical endeavour was to eliminate ignorance regarding Essence, or ”Svabhāva” as it is called in Sanskrit; the idea that persons or any phenomena whatsoever is imbued with an eternal soul, “own-being”, or spirit of any kind.

“It really doesn't contradict the Middle Way to also believe in a soul or at least developing a soul.”

It very much contradict it, because it is to fall into the extreme of eternalism. Sorry. :)

“Well, perhaps it's something that we share, only you angle for a techno body, and I angle for a Rainbow Body.”

Perhaps the difference is that I have accepted the fact that I am going to die? If not in this biological body, then in a non-biological body. The difference with your Rainbow Body though is that it is eternal and like a fluffy-sparkling life boat for your Soul. This kind of fearful behaviour is not 2-tier to me. Just look at this chart, one requisite for Yellow/Teal for example is: ”Understand that chaos and change are natural”. This amounts to dependent arising (3-p, L/7, l/c) - and any idea of a soul or essence is directly contradicting dependent arising.

What's more, the sooner we accept that our death is inevitable, the sooner will we be able to realize that nobody has actually ever died.

Christophe: “just because your analytical mind likes to solve and get rid of mysteries, doesn't mean that L&D will just disappear.”
 
I have used my analytical mind as a weapon to destroy the analytical mind. Think of it as pulling the rug from under my own feet. If there is one thing I know for sure, Christophe, then it is that everything is a complete mystery; I know nothing. They say this here is a computer screen. To me, it is a mystery. I don't even know what is going on as these words are being typed. They call this a room, but as I look around, I don't see a room. They call these things hands, but as I look at them, I don't understand. They say that the sun is big, but as I look at it, I don't see anything either big or small. They say that here I am, and then they point - but they point at nothing. If that ain't mysterious, I don't know what is!

Everything is an ineffable mystery. Elevating only two mental concepts - “love” and “death” - as some pinnacle of mystery is just confused human sentimentality. I didn't know robots were capable of such behaviour.

Re: Psychic phenomena!

yeah, these 'feelings' are a difficult human concept. I'm still trying to get my head around that. However, there were other humans who thought Love and Death are concepts that were not too unsignificant. Like this British-Indian Guru. I read, I learn.

Re: Psychic phenomena!

Is: You just have to look at this diagram to see in what quadrant Wilber places the subtle energies, for example. That's right - the UR. Since this is the case, you can't get away with that excuse. For Right Hand truth-claims, we need Right Hand evidence.


He does cite some studies to back up the theory of subtle energies. Have you looked into those? I imagine those books are on order, right?  :)