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Anyone ? Spondylolisthesis

Ookami san said Apr 7, 2008, 9:45 PM:

Any of you ever have a case of Spondylolisthesis? If so what is your story or knowledge, especially as an athlete?

-Ookami

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Re: Anyone ? Spondylolisthesis

Rob said Apr 7, 2008, 10:33 PM:

Honestly I had never heard of it until now - I just spent some time on Wiki reading up.

I'm curious - what grade is it?

As for an expert opinion on PT and training implications I can put you in contact with my trusted PT and Training duo out in Golden Colorado. I'm not sure how far you are (or one of your athletes), but a phone consult might be worth the time. If a trip to Golden can be made, getting in to see them has always proven invaluable for me.

Shoot me an e-mail if you'd like contact info…

Peace,

Re: Anyone ? Spondylolisthesis

Chad said Apr 7, 2008, 11:03 PM:

Yes, I have had it for quite a few years. The big question is what degree is your spondylolisthesis and how stable is it. Unfortunately for me, I had a grade 3 that was unstable which meant having an L4 to S1 fusion. However, I am a pretty determined guy and I got through it fine. I am in the gym 5 to 6 days a week, I lift heavy on that schedule as well as doing a pretty solid cardio program including running, and I do fine with it.

My personal experience though was that I didn't get a lot better until I got rid of all the doctors in a fit of frustration. I stopped doing the back exercises and all that crap they have you do, and I started working a solid full body strength training program, at first staying specifically away from any back work. I found that the full body program strengthened my core including the spine muscles natually in the course of training all the other stuff. Since then I have been able to add in some back work and it doesn't bother me. I have to say though that continually working the back/core muscles and trying to strengthen that in isolation from the rest of the body as the therpists were so keen on yeilded poor results at best. That being said, I don't recommend that you ignore them or don't go. Try honestly what they have to offer, but be aware enough to listen to your own body if the therapy isnt giving you the results you expect. I do believe that focus on all areas of health, diet/nutriition, vitamins/supplements, cardio, etc all together help to create an enhanced environment for healing to take place.

I don't know how much you want to know, so if you would like to ask anything in particular please dont hesitate to hit me up. I would be happy to post or answer you directly for anything else you would like to know about.

Good luck with it bro.

Re: Anyone ? Spondylolisthesis

Ookami san said Apr 8, 2008, 8:24 AM:

Rob, Chad,

Thank you both. I live in Colorado so Golden is possible. It is for my son a 17 year top athlete..he is already a multi national and world champion in martial arts and multi lettered track and cross country athlete.

He was diagnosed with this last fall after the cross season. We could not recall any accident or trauma that brought it about.

He got some exercises, mostly core, from a local PT, got him on some specific yoga asana emphasizing flexion and dialed into the nutrition including lots of fish oil.

He was okay for a bit but now it has come back right in the middle of a fantastic track season. It is grade one at best but really bothers him.

I am a big believer in strength training, obviously, especially functional full body oriented work. I assume you mean compound lifting as opposed to too much isolated muscle work? So yes, I like to hear more of your story Chad.

I just don't buy it that he would have to hang up his athletic career just because of such a thing. He is just about to head off to college with a elite National Championship program on scholarship. He has been dreaming of this school for years…not to mention opening up his own dojo down the way.

That's him on my profile in some of the photos btw.

Re: Anyone ? Spondylolisthesis

Chad said Apr 10, 2008, 12:43 PM:

Ookami,

Your son is lucky to have a father that believes in the power of the body and mind to bring about healing. This could cause tremendous grief and suffering for your son.

Spondy (for short) comes from two primary possibilities, one is that it develops in response to a stress fracture. Two, in about 2 percent of the population it can be congenital-present from birth and only becomes symptomatic during the teen growth spurts especially with heavy activity. Either way in most cases, they won't remember a specific causing event.

At a grade one at best I don't believe he should have to hang up his athletic career either. No please be clear, this is my own personal knowledge and experience, and I am just sitting for the ACSM Certified Personal Trainer exam in month. I am by no means a licensed MD, or medical professional so this is just my best efforts for you, and should always be considered in the light of what the doctors are saying as well. My personal thoughts on this are that no, this does not have to be the end of the road for him. I mean I am fused from the L4 vertebre, to the L5 vertebre to the S1 vertebre and I still enjoy a very active life. Your son sounds at this point like he is in great shape to enjoy a pretty solid recovery. In fact, I find I have the most trouble when I am least active. Now in the situation with your son, where its an acute re-appearance he might very well need to take a break from certain activities.

I would double sure that some things are checked and maintained. One thing that sticks out to me, is that runners, especially adolescent runners, use way more calcium and other nutrients then the average person, and I mean a LOT more. I would have a complete blood panel done and make sure that things like the thyroid levels are fine. A high thyroid level can lead to decreases in bone density and can aggravate this type of thing. I would make sure he is getting very high levels of his key nutrients. Even if this is not a contributing factor in the appearance of his spondy it can help with his recovery. Smoking and alcohol are major factors in spinal issues. Some Orthopedic doctors will not even operate on a smoker because of non-union issues where the bones will not grow back together.

My impression is that this spondy is caused in part, or caused to re-appear by the high impact of the cross country and track running. If there is any possibility of avoiding that for 6 months to a year, he would have a better chance of this healing. As far as the martial arts, its fairly important that he does not take any hard impacts to his back or unnecessary jaring, twisting, turning, etc.

I guess to sum it up, his body needs a break from the stresses to heal. If that's possible he has an excellent chance of being able to continue with his athletics. A failure to make that sacrifice might guarantee him a lifetime of re-occuring problems.

For me personally, I ended up having mine fused at 20 yrs old. I grew new bone like crazy and overall it went very well. That being said I am not a fan of surgery unless all other possible avenues have been explored. I had a lot of trouble with mine in terms of back and leg pain and partial loss of strength in the legs. All that eventually came back, but it was a lot of work, and I had to tolerate some pain. Thankfully, I had a doctor that was willing to treat the pain aggressively and thats what allowed me to get back active and get better.

Yeah I mean compound lifting, and any isolation stuff standing up. For instance a barbell curl is considered a bicep isolation exercise, but there are a lot of core muscles working to allow that to happen as well, among them the spinal erector muscles that go along both sides of the spine. I found when I targeted these muscles specifically I had a lot of increased pain. I found by doing all the other stuf, and leaving any back stuff out, that eventually those muscles got strong enough to handle most anything. Obviously certain things have to be considered, among them the increased chances of blowing a disc. Squats, deadlifts, that sort of thing should probably be out for now, and replaced with other alternatives. For instance squats can be replaced by the leg press, and so forth.

I have to run at the moment, but would be happy to answer any questions regarding all this. It can be a very trying injury at times, but you can get through it and still be active. I wish your son the best with this.