Gaia: Internalism - Say No to Denial!

Re: Top 10 Spiritual Mistakes

http://darkchanter.gaia.com — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 15:35:03 GMT

Perspective means point of view, worldview, mindset. And valid means exists as described. Pretty much the dictionary definitions.

For example, a common rhetoric of a new ager is: "What you think of me is your problem, not mine." The implication here is "My worldview is like so and anyone who has a different worldview is wrong." I know that what I think of the new ager is not a problem to me at all - it only shows up as a problem in their worldview.

Here's another example from a conversation I had some time ago where I was posed a (hypothetical) question about physical fighting. She (the one asking) was convinced that anybody who hits someone else is in the wrong because they made a choice to do so.

How does she know that a choice was made when she does not have an inter-subjective connection with the mind of the one doing the hitting? How could she know? This is why, for example, there is a difference, in law, between murder and manslaughter - murder is premeditated, i.e. a choice was made by the perpetrator.

Does that clear it up?

Re: Top 10 Spiritual Mistakes

http://telesterion.gaia.com — Thu, 07 Dec 2006 00:29:23 GMT

Oh, I get attacked from both sides about that "all perspectives are valid" thing (4th precept of internalism, incidentally.)

I was wondering...

What is meant by 'perspectives'?

What is meant by 'valid'?

New agers agree with me but don't seem to comprehend that it negates their sword of choice; which is a term I use for them blaming and condemning everybody for every action that they (the New Agers) don't agree with because "it was their choice to do that".

I didn't quite get this - can you give an example of a new ager using this 'sword of choice'?

I understand what you mean by 'sword of choice' ( a rhetorical "weapon" that is preferred or used a lot in internal or external dialogs), but I don't undestand what you mean by this.

blaming and condemning everybody for every action that they (the New Agers) don't agree with because "it was their choice to do that".

Re: Top 10 Spiritual Mistakes

http://darkchanter.gaia.com — Wed, 06 Dec 2006 16:33:27 GMT

Oh, I get attacked from both sides about that "all perspectives are valid" thing (4th precept of internalism, incidentally.)

The integralists immediately, as the word "valid" leaves my mouth (or is typed), accuse me of being green. They then start applying universal contexts to it - a mean green meme trait, which they refuse to acknowledge as such and vehemently deny that they have subsumed green logic. Such actions are impossible - in contravention - of on my cognitive model, Spiral Dynamics and Wilber's AQAL.

The best I've managed to get out of any of them, after showing that they simply cannot disproove the precept is "you should change the word valid". Nope, sorry, validis exactly what I mean. (Perhaps I'll explain how I came by the 4th precept after this minor rant, nm enough on it in the previous post on it on this thread.)

New agers agree with me but don't seem to comprehend that it negates their sword of choice; which is a term I use for them blaming and condemning everybody for every action that they (the New Agers) don't agree with because "it was their choice to do that".

Now I'm all for choosing how to interpret one's own experience and taking responsibility for it but that doesn't give you the right to insist that I choose the way you do. You do not have an eternal intersubjective connection with me and my experience and therefor don't even have the evidence to compare your context and choice to mine.

It seems to me to be a matter of extreme extremes on both sides. The irony is really rich when considered in the context of my wider model.

Re: Top 10 Spiritual Mistakes

http://julianwalkeryoga.gaia.com — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 16:48:49 GMT

mushin and darkchanter you are right.

this one was first on my mind, because it is so problematic - so it started at ten.

but i am happy we all agree that this one is a BIG DEAL.

:O)

thanks for the chat.

Re: Top 10 Spiritual Mistakes

http://julianwalkeryoga.gaia.com — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 16:47:18 GMT

well i go into some detail about this underneath the heading - although perhaps you havent seen the actual post that darkchanter is riffing on?

Re: Top 10 Spiritual Mistakes

http://julianwalkeryoga.gaia.com — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 16:45:52 GMT

hmmmm actually mushin - i wish you were right. perhaps you are in your neck of the woods.

although this one was very active in my discussions about bashar with you, sandra, mary, michael et al..

this is a very popular position in both the new age and just general population who like to talk about god and spirituality.

it is a spiritual mistake because it limits further inquiry into where beliefs come from, the nature of psychological defenses and the problems with unreasonable beliefs.

it is an inquiry ending belief that people fall back on when they dont want to THINK.

Re: Top 10 Spiritual Mistakes

http://julianwalkeryoga.gaia.com — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 16:40:23 GMT

well in my part of the world - california, this is a big one!

yeah europe is a lot more grown up about this sort of thing.

you have had the advantage of freud, marx, the existentialists and postmoderns having a massive impact.

most new agers in L.A. especially have this kind of prosperity, happiness, perfect relationship, synchronistic perfection idea about spiritual enlightenment....

and yeah sure the bliss idea from the east - but my point is that this is very unintegrated and makes u sprone to massive denial and delusion - because we are trying to fit into a one dimensional idea of what it is to be spiritual...

Re: Top 10 Spiritual Mistakes

http://julianwalkeryoga.gaia.com — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 16:37:01 GMT

my point here though is that this statement is in error - it is a mistake.

the point of view of the post is spirituality.

it is spiritually a mistake to think that rationality and spirituality are in opposition.

in fact rationality only deepens and strengthens spirituality while stripping away superstition, wishful thinking and regressive fantasy...

Re: Top 10 Spiritual Mistakes

http://mushin.gaia.com — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 01:44:07 GMT

5) Rationality and Spirituality are in Direct Opposition

Maybe true from a rational point of view...
Its like saying that apples and pears are in opposition.

Re: Top 10 Spiritual Mistakes

http://mushin.gaia.com — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 01:42:17 GMT

6) If I Were Really Advanced Spiritually, I Would be Healthy, Wealthy, In Love With My Soul Mate and Happy All the Time

Probably this doesn't belong in the top 10... not in those parts of the world I know (Northern Europe) well enough... except for "happy all the time". But that is what Enlightenment is supposed to be, isn't it? Bliss - Ananda.
Can you blame people for then taking that statement - Sat-Chit-Ananda - a bit too literal?

Re: Top 10 Spiritual Mistakes

http://mushin.gaia.com — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 01:38:10 GMT

9) Change your thoughts intentionally and all else will follow.

Not a mistake - or indeed a mistake. Depends very much on what is meant by "all else".

Re: Top 10 Spiritual Mistakes

http://mushin.gaia.com — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 01:36:48 GMT

10) “You create your own reality” is proven by quantum physics.

Me too, I'm surprised of the low ranking...
But what does "proven" mean? It shows the general slant in our culture towards the belief that those things that can be "proven" are somehow superior than those things that can't be (like love, for instance... or compassion...)
The very high score this top ten mistake should have points towards the enormous prestige that science and especially quantum physics have. Does anyone of those that state this 'noble mistake' have any knowledge of quantum physics? (I don't; although I can probably say a lot of things about it...) Or even worse, does anyone know what constitutes a proof? (I don't.) And then, what kind of proof - maybe like the one that is in the eating?

What is expressed in this noble mistake is a longing for deep certaincy. And since science has been promising us this - I say it in a populistic way, I know - since 200 years or so it shouldn't surprise us...

Re: Top 10 Spiritual Mistakes

http://mushin.gaia.com — Tue, 05 Dec 2006 01:22:42 GMT

8) Everyone's opinion is equally valid because all truths are relative.

The strange thing about this top ten truth is... it is at max. on the top 500 and than rather in the region of say, (thumb in the air) 450.
Seriously, I've never met anyone out of Integralist Academia (and I only meet these people on the Internet) who even knows people who actually hold, that "everyone's opinion is equally valid" or Darkchanter's "all perspectives are valid" - which, by the way, says as much as, "the moon is always round."

The statement - and the integralists that then deconstruct it - serves an important purpose though, as far as I can see. It serves as a flag of 'integralist correctness' and mostly just seems to signify, "I (the one demasking the absurdity of the claim) have developed beyond green ... and I certainly haven't got the mean-green-meme-disease."

But maybe I live in too ordinary a world...

Much Love,
Mushin

Re: Two Thoughts for Inner and World Peace

http://gardenplanetproject.gaia.com — Sun, 26 Nov 2006 16:52:05 GMT

Absolutely. As if we become increasingly delusional as we aggregate in fear. But yes, no need to generalize the specifics to the whole. The whole is like, maybe, the least common denominator, or something... Like the famous committee that can formulate nothing more coherent than its least coherent member. It doen't mean that all members are incoherent, only the mean...

Re: Two Thoughts for Inner and World Peace

http://darkchanter.gaia.com — Sun, 26 Nov 2006 06:39:31 GMT

It is the behaviour of a composite social organism, yes. By way of elaboration: one's personal physician being trustworthy does not imply that one should trust the medical profession.

Re: Top 10 Spiritual Mistakes

http://julianwalkeryoga.gaia.com — Sun, 26 Nov 2006 01:47:57 GMT

very good observations and context darkchanter. bravo!

Re: Top 10 Spiritual Mistakes

http://darkchanter.gaia.com — Sat, 25 Nov 2006 16:24:38 GMT

5) Rationality and Spirituality are in Direct Opposition

Most religions are/were an attempt to fit trans-rational truths into a pre-rational box. Then the "western enlightenment" happened and scientists (the modern and post modrnn ones) deicded that anything that is non-rational is prerational. (Well they have evidence of prerational behaviour from many religious praticioners.)

So the mistaking of prerational for transrational and visa-versa remains.

Re: Top 10 Spiritual Mistakes

http://darkchanter.gaia.com — Sat, 25 Nov 2006 16:17:38 GMT

6) If I Were Really Advanced Spiritually, I Would be Healthy, Wealthy, In Love With My Soul Mate and Happy All the Time

Again I am going to insist that spirit does not advance. What does advance is one's psyche's ability to comprehend truth (both absolute and relative). This does mean that one experiences more joy; and more pain.

This seems to point at the general misconception that psychological maturity starts after the completion of physical development. They develop in paralell (one's physical actions - behaviour - changes as one matures psychologically. "Dirt does not get up and start writing poetry." (Ken Wilber)

Re: Top 10 Spiritual Mistakes

http://darkchanter.gaia.com — Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:49:38 GMT

7) All Religions are Really Saying the Same Thing: God Wants Us To Love One Another

Well they generally are, the problem is that, in practice, they generally defines the "anothers" as people of their "one true" religion. The problem here is ethnocentricity: in this value system (blue on Spiral Dynamics) people of other ethnicities (or in this case religions) are not considered to be human in the sense that they are cast as unworthy of moral consideration.

I lament the gaping dissonance between the theology and practice of most religions.

Re: Top 10 Spiritual Mistakes

http://darkchanter.gaia.com — Sat, 25 Nov 2006 15:19:23 GMT

8) Everyone's opinion is equally valid because all truths are relative.

Yes, it should read: All perspectives are valid. There is a difference between validity and operational effectiveness, as Julian points out. That hierachy that he refers to (Spiral Dynamics) is a structure of the breadth and multiplicity of possible perspectives.

Essentially: all perspectives are valid because they hold existential, relative truth. Some are two narrow and/or distorted and/or misdirected to be practically effective, nonetheless, they are subsumed by wider, more comprehensive perspectives. (I'll supply examples of this subsuming from Spiral Dynamics if anyone is interested.)

This has some serious implications in a "one man one vote" democratic system. Am I the only person to realise that those best capable of ruling will always be the minority in any society?