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Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of DevelopmentBalder said Apr 28, 3:04 PM: |
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An excerpt of a recent essay by Craig Hamilton, a Bay Area spiritual teacher and a (former) student of Andrew Cohen: |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of DevelopmentBalder said Apr 28, 3:14 PM: |
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I have a couple concerns about the above essay, which I'll develop more in another post. I appreciated Craig's concerns about potential problems with the “lines of development” explanation of the misconduct and abuses of spiritual teachers. But then his proposed answer appears to be a version of the “no true Scotsman” argument – a logical fallacy which has been a pet strategy of traditional religionists for years. He weds this also to what appears to be a pre-postmodern (not a post-postmodern) appeal to metaphysical absolutes. |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of DevelopmentTely said Apr 29, 8:31 PM: |
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I agree with your analysis, Bruce, although I certainly don't have your way with words in describing what feels “not quite right” about it. I look forward to reading what more you have to say about it. |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of DevelopmentTom said Apr 29, 9:52 PM: |
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Bruce, I don't buy his explanation. It seems to me that enlightened teachers perhaps can tend to atypical forms of experimentation, beyond the pale, if you will, because in that enlightened state, what is is, and there is no wrong: how could is be subject to anything at all? Perhaps some less developed aspect of such teachers then takes hold of that experiential freedom and has a party? Could be 20 valid explanations consistent with real enlightenment. |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmentdavybuoy said Apr 29, 12:54 AM: |
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Firstly I really identified with the passage on spiritual wakening and this article echoed my personal thoughts on how the effects of such an awakening should affect the whole person not just a spiritual line of development. But traditional spiritual teachings do not seem to affect the whole person. |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmentdavybuoy said Apr 29, 7:25 AM: |
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Here is something I serendipitously found today: |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of DevelopmentTom said Apr 30, 2:41 PM: |
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Davy, I agree that marketing pressures add their own complexion. As to east/west, some of the more colourful spiritual teachers, including some most bunkered in controversy, have been from the east. Osho is a great example. Another is Chogyam Trungpa. |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmenttheurj said Apr 30, 1:11 PM: |
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Here's another perspective on it from Johh Heron, who we'll explore in the “next Buddha” thread. |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of DevelopmentDave said May 4, 7:05 AM: |
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Good day all… |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of DevelopmentBalder said Apr 30, 2:30 PM: |
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Duplicating my recent post on IA:
He sounds to me rather like a Protestant evangelist who has found a new jello flavor to pour in his mold. New words, but the accent is the same. I'm not sure what his background is, but his basic answer to the question of why spiritual teachers fail or fall prey to scandal would seem to support this:
What this reminds me of is an argument that runs something like this, mostly in Protestant circles: A: Faith is permanent. Once a Christian, you cannot lose your faith. B: But Mark used to go to church, and then lost faith in Jesus. A: Yes, but Mark was never a true Christian in the first place. In other words, spiritual awakening is real (and I have the real, final definition of it), but for any so-called spiritual teacher who acts outside of the prescribed codes of behavior that I associate with that “awakening,” they must never have been awakened in the first place. This is the “no true Scotsman” fallacy. The fallacy arises when the definition of a concept is ambiguous, vague, or contested, which is certainly the case when it comes to the tradition-specific notion of awakening…and which is possibly compounded in the Integral Spiritual context, where at least four or five definitions are recognized. I am not suggesting here that there are no meaningful ways to evaluate spiritual development or realization within a tradition, but it seems to me that Craig's “answer” is still essentially metaphysical and representationist, and that's why he's ending up in this familiar territory (a common appeal in conventional doctrinal disputes). |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmentkelamuni said May 1, 12:05 PM: |
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Hi Bruce, |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmentkelamuni said May 1, 7:58 PM: |
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By the way, Bruce, I'm not trying to trip you up here. I think you are on to something, and I want you to teach me more about it. You've obviously thought about it. |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmentkelamuni said Apr 30, 4:00 PM: |
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I don't buy the distinction between “Great Masters” and “half-baked spiritual teachers.” It is this very idealization/demonization that creates the so-called “problem” here. We should do away with the capitals letters. More later. |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmenttheurj said May 1, 7:38 AM: |
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See Heron’s “A tangle of lines and levels” in this regard at this link: |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmenttheurj said May 1, 9:32 AM: |
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In Integral Spirituality Wilber still maintains consciousness per se as the measure of altitude in all lines. This lends support to Heron's idea that this “state-stage” of emptiness/openesss is the ultimate measure. Not to mention that it is also considered “authentic enlightenment” to boot. In this book that is defined by one who possesses the highest state-stage and structure-stage combined, and per the definitions below that would mean non-dual state combined with indigo cognitive stage. But notice has the cognitive stage is really just a qualified, “relative” mini-version of the “absolute” state. A tangled web indeed. |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmentkelamuni said May 1, 12:03 PM: |
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Hi Locutus, |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmenttheurj said May 1, 12:55 PM: |
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You can see my discussion with a couple of Wilber apologists (Joe Perez, Chris Dierkes) on the topic at this link. Shortly after this debate OI (i.e., me) went from being rated turquoise to teal by Joe. Funny. You can also see the previous discussion between kela, me and others in the old Lightmind forum. And there's this link to another OI discussion on the topic that references some of the Lightmind discussion. |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmentkelamuni said May 1, 1:16 PM: |
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Yikes. Those were dark days at Lightmind. Here's the post in which I discuss the problem of lines. |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmentkelamuni said May 1, 7:54 PM: |
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Hey Ed, |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmentkelamuni said May 1, 11:13 AM: |
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I am in some agreement with Wilber on some points. I remember reading his analogy with Albert Einstein, about how we should not expect Einstein to be a marathon runner simply because he is a mathematical genius. When I first read this, possibly in Eye to Eye, I sympathized with what I saw as an attempt to naturalize or humanize these “Spiritual Masters.” In my view these people are above all humans and not gods. I fail to see how seeing these “Great Masters” as god-men constitutes a mature, grown-up view, and we are presumably talking about forms of growth and development that lie beyond the received view of what constitutes maturity. I can't help but see the irony here. When I see “spiritual practioners” — “indigo” people, the cutting edge of human evolution, or whatever it is that they're supposed to be — falling for the sacred ash trick of Satya Sai Baba I can't help but think that these are people who refuse to let go of their attachment to Santa Claus and the tooth fairy. When John Lennon became disillusioned with the Maharishi over his lusting after over Mia Farrow, I saw less of a fault with the Maharishi than I did with Lennon. The primary “problem” in that case was in Lennon's own juvenile idealization of the Maharishi. (I'm not condoning the behavior of the Maharishi; it almost as juvenile as Lennon's. I'm simply saying we shouldn't be surprised.) The same goes for the idolization of Ramana or Nisarg. They were human with human faults like anyone else. I don't see a “benchmark” in their person at all. This whole business of “who's the most enlightened master” strikes me as quaintly Romantic. |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of DevelopmentNeon said May 1, 11:01 AM: |
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Distortedbehaviour by spiritual teachers is obviously due to the fact that they still identify with parts of their ego. They can have realised deep spiritual states and at |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of DevelopmentNeon said May 1, 11:29 AM: |
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By the way, Andrew Cohen seems to have reacted on the allegations for the first time in some official way by answering questions from a journalist but at the same time threatening the journalist with a law suit if he would publish the allegations in his newspaper. See http://whatenlightenment.blogspot.com/ |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmentkelamuni said May 1, 7:19 PM: |
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Hi Neon, |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of DevelopmentNeon said May 2, 2:49 AM: |
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Hi Kela, |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of DevelopmentTom said May 1, 11:11 AM: |
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Neon: Distorted behaviour by spiritual teachers is obviously due to the fact that they still identify with parts of their ego. |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of DevelopmentNeon said May 1, 1:21 PM: |
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With all respect Tom, but based on your remarks here and on other parts of this site I think you believe in a form of extreme constructivism. And this particular example |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmenttheurj said May 2, 3:19 PM: |
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Interesting talk about the ego. I guess we'd have to define how we're using that term. One way of talking about it it the self-system, as does Wilber in “A summary of my psychological model.” And here the ego-self is what integrates all the levels, lines, states etc. This would include the so-called “enlightened” state. Without the ego, no enlightenment. |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmenttheurj said May 3, 9:47 AM: |
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To be fair, it's a bit more complicated in Wilber's model. I'm looking over “The self-system in integral counseling” in Counseling and Values, 01-APR-07 by Elliott Ingersoll and Susan Cook-Greuter. The relationship is known as “ladder, climber, view.” The ladder is the cognitive structural stages, the climber is the self system that identifies with those levels and the view is the self's worldview from that rung on the ladder. The cogntive stages are permanent and the views are temporary and replaced. |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmenttheurj said May 3, 10:15 AM: |
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If you want a copy of the article email me. |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of DevelopmentNickeson said May 3, 7:25 PM: |
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Edward, |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmentkelamuni said May 4, 12:21 PM: |
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What's academics or hermeneutics got to do with it? It's the infestation of the monastic and renunciatory traditions that have generated this particular “pathology.” What's curiously ironic is the degree to spirituality itself constitutes a form of self-absorption. |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmenttheurj said May 4, 12:40 PM: |
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Indeed. When I got my massage training (and Holistic Health Practitioner certification and license) in the mid 80s at the prestigious-sounding Institute of Psycho-Structural Balancing in San Diego, I was struck by how the usual California self-indulgence was magnifed given the “spiritual” context. Now we were “authentically” self-indulgent. I created a mantra-affirmation for the movement which didn't go over well with the more seriously-minded teachers and seekers: “I am my Higher Selfish.” |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmenttheurj said May 4, 8:27 AM: |
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Looking at the pathology section in the CG article the general idea is that if the fusion-differentiation-integration cycle gets interupted in transformation to a new level then some aspects of the self can get split off and still identify with previous level views. Hence there can still be some red egocentric aspects of self manifesting within some other turquoise+ construct-aware aspects. A self divided then makes for a poor integrator of all the other levels, lines, states, etc. Comments later as time permits. |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmenttheurj said May 2, 3:36 PM: |
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And don’t forget our discussion in the “Epstein thread” about the ego. It just might be the infamous “witness” of meditation! Recall this from Epstein: |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of DevelopmentNickeson said May 2, 4:32 PM: |
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Hey, |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmentkelamuni said May 4, 12:24 PM: |
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Or Plato: “The wise one has something to say; the fool has to say something.” |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of DevelopmentZakariyya said May 3, 5:22 PM: |
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<br /><br /> |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmenttheurj said May 4, 12:26 PM: |
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Andrew Cohen makes this statement about the ego (at this link): |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmentkelamuni said May 4, 1:49 PM: |
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Andrew Cohen is full of it. He's begun sounding like he's going through some sort of midlife crisis or something: his thinking is becoming increasingly incoherent. How could there ever be an evolutionary drive without personal self-interest? Saying that the relenquishing of the drive toward self-preservation is itself the driving force behind evolution sounds like pure nonsense to me. The renunciatory traditions may be concerned with letting go of self-interest as a final stage in life, as a kind of wind-down to the earlier stages of life concerned with propogation etc, but this kind of detachment will have nothing to do with “evolution” as we commonly understand the term. I'm trying to image grizzly bears on the rivers of British Columbia somehow “evolving” by means of giving up their interest in salmon… |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of DevelopmentJim said May 5, 6:34 AM: |
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This excerpt from Craig Hamilton's article begins with mention of “the notion of Lines of Development” as a “clean, simple, commonsense theory” that seems to explain the problem of “great Masters” who “acted innapropriately.” Hamilton doesn't mention that the notion in question comes from Ken Wilber. Hamilton then proceeds to explain why he finds the Lines of Development theory wanting. |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmenttheurj said May 5, 8:08 AM: |
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Since Jim mentions Jack Kornfield I'd like to provide a relevant excerpt by him from “Psychotherapy and Meditation.” I'll tie together the excerpts of Wilber, CG and Kornfield in a subsequent post. Kornfield: |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of DevelopmentNickeson said May 5, 9:32 AM: |
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Along these lines it is good to remember the phenomenon known as the |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of DevelopmentBalder said May 5, 10:20 AM: |
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Jim, I appreciated your balanced, reflective response – as usual! |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmentkelamuni said May 5, 6:21 PM: |
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Hi Bruce, |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmenttheurj said May 6, 8:43 AM: |
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Speaking of idealization, recall what Epstein said this in the Buddhism & Psychoanalysis thread: |
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Re: Authentic Enlightenment & Lines of Developmenttheurj said May 6, 3:30 PM: |
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To return to Hamilton’s original comments, I’d agree with him that we need to redefine spirituality and nonduality as an “enlightened humanity” by way of an integration of the various lines. He says it’s not “discover[ing] that only the Absolute or Unmanifest is ultimately real” through a meditative line that is divorced from all others. The nondual includes the relative realm of pain and suffering. |
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