Your Brain On God

Great series from NPR

http://www.npr.org/news/specials/2009/brain/

Re: Your Brain On God

Thanks for posting this, Hawkeye. Can't wait to dive into it later. My inner neurotic worries that some will view these neurological findings as proof that the Divine is just all in our heads. I see it as quite the opposite: a mesmerizing discovery of just how complex the creation–and, by extension, its Creator–truly are.

I suppose this is like a lot of other things: you can use it to prove your point, whatever that may be.

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Hi Backwrite,

My inner neurotic worries that some will view these neurological findings as proof that the Divine is just all in our heads.
 
It looks like they are looking at it from many angels, which good science has to do.
Its clearly a positive step forward in what Wilber predicted about more research coming out on mapping spiritual states and stages in the upper right quadrant correlating to the upper left quadrant. Take a look at the universities involved.

The quick sound bites are a good start. The woman who took psychedelic mushrooms in “The God Chemical” had an orgasm of spiritual consciousness it sounds.

 It's good to be on the same page as researchers and the general public…at least the NPR audience : - ) I looked all the quick links over and I saw that some researchers are considering the existence of consciousness independent of the brain, which is not what the materialists support. I intend on finishing the whole thing this weekend! 

Dan

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Backwrite and Dan,

Yes, that's definitely one of the possibilities being explored. But I like the open-endedness of it.

For example, in the story in the second part, 

This made me wonder: If God uses the temporal lobe, can neurologists make God come and go at will? Well, they can make ecstatic seizures go away with surgery or medication. But what about summoning God? Could a scientist manufacture a spiritual experience by manipulating my temporal lobes?




The writer goes on to describe an experience of the “God helmet” and wraps up with:



At one point, Persinger predicts I am right on the verge of feeling the “Sensed Presence.” But it never happens. There were several times when Persinger predicted I would see an image, or a face — and I did. 


To Persinger, this is evidence that God and all spiritual experience are a product of your brain.“What is the last illusion that we must overcome as a species?” he asks theatrically. “That illusion is that God is an absolute that exists independent of the human brain — that somehow we are in his or her care.”

But that is not how the article ends -rather it is with these views:


Does the fact that we can track spiritual feelings in our temporal lobe mean that there's nothing spiritual going on?“No,” he says simply.Think about a man and woman who are in love, Devinsky says. They look at each other, and in all likelihood, something fires in their temporal lobes.“However, does that negate the presence of true love between them?” he asks. “Of course not. When you get to spirituality, as a scientist I think it really becomes extremely difficult to say anything other than, 'It's possible.' ”As for Schimmel, the fellow with temporal lobe epilepsy, he finds it hard to believe that his new faith and love for his fellow man come merely from an electrical impulse that's gone awry.

I think this is tremendous stuff. But as usual we will tend to find in it what we came looking for :)Nicole

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I helped with brain surgery , and “held lobes” with retractors in the OR.


When I had a near death experience, I doubt if “I” was the one who said…

“not time for you to go yet, dear one”  …before I physically felt my spirit thunk back into my body. I wouldn't have called myself “dear one”.

:)

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Sunshine,
Jeezus what a name.
So for me it was the Lord of Death, the perfectly compassionate assassin; his casual insinuation that my tour of Valhalla was over. I had seen what I needed to see.
“Thanks for dropping by, from now on you can come and go here as you like.” (And I have.)
A streetwise player in a homburg hat walked me to the door and mocked the Lord behind his back.
If one doesn't claim to be the Lord of My Own Death then what is the point of living?

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You Are The Sunshine Of My Life

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Sunshine, Nickeson, fascinating near death experiences… there must be so many different kinds eh?

Mark, Nickeson, what did you think of the articles, did you have a chance to read them? I'd be interested in your thoughts,

Nicole

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Nicole, I loved this analysis, and I completely agree with it.  I find this stuff fascinating!

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Y'all might want to see our previous discussion on this topic at the “Neuroscience & Meditation” thread.

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Thanks, a lot of good material in that thread. 

I found the neuroplasticity experiment toward the end of this article
reminiscent of a “Holosync lite” :) - what did others think of it? 

Nicole

Re: Your Brain On God

Yeah, let's light up the Holosynch!

Stairway to Heaven

There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold
And she's buying a stairway to heaven.
When she gets there she knows, if the stores are all closed
With a word she can get what she came for.
Ooh, ooh, and she's buying a stairway to heaven.

There's a sign on the wall but she wants to be sure
'Cause you know sometimes words have two meanings.
In a tree by the brook, there's a songbird who sings,
Sometimes all of our thoughts are misgiven.
Ooh, it makes me wonder,
Ooh, it makes me wonder.

There's a feeling I get when I look to the west,
And my spirit is crying for leaving.
In my thoughts I have seen rings of smoke through the trees,
And the voices of those who standing looking.
Ooh, it makes me wonder,
Ooh, it really makes me wonder.

And it's whispered that soon if we all call the tune
Then the piper will lead us to reason.
And a new day will dawn for those who stand long
And the forests will echo with laughter.

If there's a bustle in your hedgerow, don't be alarmed now,
It's just a spring clean for the May queen.
Yes, there are two paths you can go by, but in the long run
There's still time to change the road you're on.
And it makes me wonder.

Your head is humming and it won't go, in case you don't know,
The piper's calling you to join him,
Dear lady, can you hear the wind blow, and did you know
Your stairway lies on the whispering wind.

And as we wind on down the road
Our shadows taller than our soul.
There walks a lady we all know
Who shines white light and wants to show
How everything still turns to gold.
And if you listen very hard
The tune will come to you at last.
When all are one and one is all
To be a rock and not to roll.

And she's buying a stairway to heaven.

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Mark, Thanks for sharing those lyrics. I never really heard most of the lyrics, possibly due to enjoying the music. Like a blind person hearing more keenly because he or she doesn't have sight to compete with the other sense, when I only saw the lyrics, I “heard” the message much better. 
  Darrell 

Re: Your Brain On God

“Like a blind person…”

Haven't seen my friendly invite yet, my dear friend?

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Mark, Those lyrics seem right on. The Way? And when investing in it, what changes must occur in the brain. And the changes in the brain surely help us climb the stairway - in a reciprocal fashion of altered brain chemistry and altered lifestyle or world view or even cultural transformation. I have called the mind the Master Tool, because it is the tool that makes all other tools. The song seems to suggest that if we learn to master the Master Tool, and its great capacity for altered states of consciousness, then the climb upward will occur. Darrell

Re: Your Brain On God

Michael Persinger, of Laurentian University, in Sudbury Canada, believes that magnetic fields created by tectonically induced piezoelectric effects are responsible for such things as visions of yeti, aliens, and so on — the so called “sensed presence” or “third factor” phenomenon.

Winters are long and cold in parts of Canada, and there's often little to do but play hockey, or have sex, or engage our imaginations. We've also apparently developed a peculiar fascination with hockey helmets. Persinger appears to have come up with an imaginative way of using a hockey helmet when he's not using it to play hockey. Another canuck with a vivid imagination — fostered no doubt by those long cold winters when we are overcome with cabin fever and boredom — is David Cronenberg; he too also come up with an imaginative adaptation of the hockey helmet.

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Nicole,
You wrote: “But as usual we will tend to find in it what we came looking for(.)”

I will add to that, “and what we get out of them (the experience) is always exactly what we brought to them.

I have mentioned before that I was one of 11 pilot subjects for this study, which centered around the DMT produced by the pineal gland. Part of the underlying theory was that “enlightenment” experiences (Strassman is a lay Zen monk) “religious” experiences and near death experiences were facilitated by a sudden upsurge of DMT in the blood chemistry. We all wondered if we would get enlightened during the study. Several of us in the initial group were close friends with Strassman and we had discussed the whole project at some length. We all knew what he and we, ourselves, were looking for. No one received enlightenment out of the 200 and some participants in the major study that followed the pilot phase. No one got religion. One man got psychotic, so Strassman figured it was doing more damage than good and pulled the plug as the professionally ethical thing to do. One of his conclusion was that everybody took from the sessions nothing more in a spiritual vein than what they came in with despite the numinostiy of the typical vision.

I found my “big dose” experiences to be essentially dayglow enhanced dreams, and not even the kind of dreams from which one wakes in ecstasy. But they were entirely reflective of my psyche. I have always liked Indo-Europen mythology and the images and interactions were straight out of it. From DMT I got Kabiri, a composite Goddess of Wisdom, and a sentient Yggdrasil. From the near death thing I got Valhalla (Updated to the National Cemetery Administration elegantly situated on Park Ave.) Wodin (as the chief grave-digger), the ultimate Valkyrie (an advancing statue of the Goddess Liberty) and I got to see the trajectory of my death turned around in an impossible maneuver by psychopomp, Winged Hermes (as the rogue jet fighter pilot who occasionally barn stormed through my dreams).

What is there not to love about the psyche?

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My wife Dora remarked a week or two ago something about being Pandora. I said to her if she is that, then I must be Hephaestus. ;)

Mythology is great stuff with interesting parallels in the modern age.

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Thanks, Matthew! It is very, very fascinating, yes. 

kelamuni, oh hello, from another Canuck. Yes, we're good at hockey and really really bizarre movies up here, Videodrome is right up there with the weirdest and most wonderfully bent movies we keep pumping out. 

Nickeson, those were some incredible experiences you had. Kabiri, Yggdrasil, Valhalla - sounds totally wild. 

Perhaps the problem of “only getting what you come looking for and bring” has to do with the controlled nature of these experiments. Otherwise, how to explain the reality-changing experiences that people have had through the ages?

Mark, so what happened after you told your Dora that you must be Hephaestus? :) 

Mythology is indeed so very rich, I don't think we explore those parallels enough. Much grist for the post-metaphysical mill, eh?

Nicole

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Yes Nicole, I think these parallels are very rich and quite difficult to express adequately with words alone.  I have a more powerful medium (my flash audio/video app) that I think is better suited for this topic. I'll see if I can put something together by this weekend.

Mark

Re: Your Brain On God

Very interesting posts! Steves mention of his DMT days is eye opening. The one spot on the God Chemical has me wanting to participate in some of those studies! Its really encouraging that this research has seen a revival from the 60s. Its hard to believe this is in the United States. Maybe you folks from Canada could come visit us for some spiritual science fun. New experiements for “Mr. Wizard”! 

“Gee Mr. Wizard, what experiement are we going to do today?”

“Well Timmy, we are going to hook up your brain to this EEG machine and induce a near death experience and see if we can spot some Theta waves. Are you ready to put one foot into the Bardo?”

“I'm not sure about that Mr. Wizard, my mom wants me home before dinner. How about a good old fashion meditation retreat and you can study the brainwaves of 100 Zen meditators and compare them to 100 people who watch your show on TV?”


The Obama administration might be an open door politically and culturally for these things to begin mushrooming (excuse the pun).

The mythology references are very useful. How about Icarus for those of us in general on the spiritual trail to enlightenment…if you are the seeking type or in the seeking self mode frequently. All of this research will produce evidence both pro and con supporting or negating spiritual experiences.

It will help prove the value of “integral life practices” such as meditation and prayer and good old exercise to stay fit. And who knows, an occasional hit of psychedelic mushrooms? But is all of this like trying to fly too close to the sun, like Icarus? What could be called “evolutionary impatience”.

The gift of our cerebral cortex is both the key and possibly also a hinderance. Its difficult for some just to sit back and enjoy the ride, one lifetime at a time. We have that seeking self, we have to know, to experience. If we push too hard is it like opening Pandoras box or flying too close to the sun?

I personally don't think so, but I can see on an individual case by case basis [does it sound weird to call our spiritual quests a “case study”?] how this could very well happen to some folks when experimenting with chemicals or even more basic psychological profile issue such as setting ones expectations too high and becoming depressed becuse we cannot reach the mark.

How Ram Dass put is was that we buy spiritual models of how we ought to be before we are ready for it or before we “get there” and thus set ourselves up for all sorts of behavioral, ethical, social and psychological issues to cope with (one comment he used was becoming a “phony holy”). We set ourselves up.

“Part of our journey is slowing down so we don't get too far ahead of ourselves. The head so leads the heart, slowing down so that we can stay in tune with ourselves and be authentic about where we are in this journey of awakening.: [paraphrased]

Dan

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Hawkeye, your wizardly story was perfect. It skillfully showed:

The Function of Myth
“One of the foremost functions of myth is to establish models for behavior. The figures described in myth are sacred and are therefore worthy role models for human beings. Thus, myths often function to uphold current social structures and institutions: they justify these customs by claiming that they were established by sacred beings.

Another function is to provide people with a religious experience. By retelling myths, human beings detach themselves from the present and return to the mythical age, thereby bringing themselves closer to the divine. In fact, in some cases, a society will reenact a myth in an attempt to reproduce the conditions of the mythical age: for example, it will reenact the healing performed by a god at the beginning of time in order to heal someone in the present.”

I deeply appreciate your own 'flash presentation' as it saved me some time.

Switching gears, this is the third forum of this nature that I've participated in during the last 9 years. By far, the members here are more open and loving than any other place I've experienced.

I hope you can pass more of your love my way as I need to pay my rent by the end of the month. I'm selling some personal possessions on CraigsList and hopefully your well-wishes will help me to sell my stuff.

A Broke Man,
Mark

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Just had a heated conversation with Dora. We're getting a divorce. She wants me out of 'her home' ASAP, me too.

A Broke Bachelor,
Mark

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The heat between us is gone. Our love for each other is guiding us to discover the best divorce solution via the path of least resistance.

Why is there a need for divorce lawyers?

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Hawkeye,
You wrote: Are you ready to put one foot into the Bardo?”
ROFL! What a straight line…here goes…

When we knew that we were going in soon for a Strassman test on the high dose of 99.9% percent pure DMT (which had been synthesized by this insane psycho-pharmacologist at Purdue Univ.–they don't call them “The Boilermakers” for nothing), one that would put us on the threshold of unconsciousness; another participant and I started cramming on the whatchacallum Tibeten book…I've forgotten its name…”Around the Bardo in 49 Days” or “Through the Bardo with Gun and Camera”  or whatever. We were memorizing: don't look at animals, don't look at the bright lights. Don't do this. Don't do that. And the bright lights thing was especially critical because DMT is nothing if it isn't bright lights.
 
The Test: For the first and only time in my life The Observer was knocked out before Strassman had injected the full dose. Enter the Dayglow Kabiri. Three of them held me immobilized. The fourth held what looked like a gigantic Interstate Highway directional sign in front of my face. It was filled with…what else…bright lights: a blood red vortex of screamingly bright Las Vegas-like lights, going in and in and in. I tried to struggle against them. No way. When in the land of Kabiri do what Kabiri demand. Fine. I followed the blood red lights in and in and in.
 
It did not take much post-dose analysis to know that this was not accidental, no reality changing revelation. It was what I brought to that test because I had already told myself that, at least for me, it was what akways had to be done.

Last winter, in this venue, there was a thread called The Status of States in which Kela mentioned that Strassman's use of pure DMT as opposed to 5-me0 dmt (which is what the pineal actually produces) would have worked better in the tests. I started drafting a reply that was never posted, but I went back today in the Scribefire archives and located it…an excerpt that in its totality  is addressing one of Kela's posts:

“And then you mentioned 5 meo dmt to which I think the Christian world owes a debt of thanks since The Book of Revelations has the fingerprints of 5 meo dmt all over it…I suspect Syrian Rhu is the culprit. And then today…scant minutes ago…you mentioned shamanism and that old amateur hour rock art. I thought this is getting better all the time, the kid's come a long ways. I have found that people hang in shamanic circles because they are fun, balls to the wall, kick ass, take names,  fun (as opposed to Buddhist circles, or Wilberry Circles that are serious). Hanging out in shamanic circles…if one can maintain a good distance from the plastic kind of Native American imitation…they will begin to hear stories of the storied Web and hints that 5 meo dmt is the A List invitation to The Web, possibly delivered immediately by the smoke of dried Sonoran Toad venom (99.9% pure synthesized dmt, of which samples now might only exist in the vaults of the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration, won't do it…too immediate, too heavy).

“So one leaves the planet on the venom and journeys outward…the known universe is left behind in seconds. Next encounter: The Web. It is what holds the whole thing together. It is golden, random hatch lines, an infinite game of pick-up-sticks, thick, awesome, encircling the universe. Lots of us have been there. It is absolute, complete omniscience, gone beyond, gone completely beyond universal omniscience. Alongside The Web the Akashic Records are a 3 X 5 recipe card box, Buddhistic enlightenment is the first day of Kindergarten. A Ninth Heaven immortality or to be the reincarnation of Zhong Li Quan, are momentary blow-bys.

“I get there and I say to myself, “Jesus Christ…another spiritual experience? God, do I have to be wasting toad venom on a spiritual experience? Done this, already! Enlightenment and 59¢ will buy me a Dunkin' Donut. I'm going home.” Coasted in over the North Atlantic, my favorite place at sea. Saw a solitary hooded figure in a tiny boat rowing toward god knows where. Made a note to write a poem. Dropped back in to the tan-dien–the singular source of reality–the source of those blood red lights. I had seen enough of The Web to know that (in a paraphrase of  the Harley sticker) “If ya ain't a'risin outta yer guts, ya ain't a'risin outta shit.”

Thanks Hawkeye for the straight line.

And Nicole, you who wrote:  Otherwise, how to explain the reality-changing experiences that people have had through the ages?

Don't ask me. I wasn't there.

Ciao luego,
Steven

p.s. If I get three yes votes I'll finish the unfinished post to Kela and post it here.

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Thanks Steven. Great post. I like your comparisons: they tell me that you have privileged access and are not talking through you hat, as those who dismiss it do. My own comparisons: If LSD is a go-round on the Carousal, and bolus MDA is a ride on the Ferris Wheel, 5meoDMT would be akin to jumping out of an airplane — with the accompaning realization that one had forgotten to strap on a parachute.

—

As I was watching Videodrome the other night, I was reminded of another story (which may, or may not, have inspired Cronenberg to some degree) — one by H.P. Lovecraft titled From Beyond, in which the author speculates about a structure residing in the brain that can be awakened and, in some sense, trained.

—

Another researcher in the Oliver Sacks tradition, V. Ramachandran, has looked into the relation to between religious experience and the temporal lobes.
See for example part 1; part 2.

Some of the features of the personality of Adi Da — megalomania, hypergraphia, etc. — appear to be akin to features of people who have temporal lobe epilepsy, or who have brain injuries, and who also report “religious” experiences with parallel behaviours.

—

“the god spot or g-spot”
“this is your brain on god”
all we need now is a indirect reference to rock and roll.

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Kela
A bow to you.

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I'll cast my vote for Yes.

Great post Steven! Looks like you are part of the foot notes in the history books of spiritual science. You went to the red lights instead of the white lights. How could the Tibetian “Bardo for Dummys” be wrong? Interesting that you had control over what you could choose in the experience. Sounds like the good stuff is 5 meo dmt. Still much research to be done. If you get any new offers and need a buddy on the trip, I'll book a ticket with you.

I haven't earned the stripes yet for such credentials. One good acid trip is in my history, uncontrolled experiment. But it was enough to get me interested in awakening. It also caused a chemically induced spiritual angst that still haunts me occasionally.

What Ram Dass would call the “moldering butterfly” “Once you have an experience of a high and cling to it calling it your own its another, as I said, moldering butterfly to add to your collection. Its that clinging to the memory of experiences that keeps you from being in this moment, the Now” [ parapahrased]

I wonder what Holosync would be like on LSD?

10-4 Good Buddies!

Dan

Re: Your Brain On God

Hawkeye, Thanks. I heard some of this on NPR and thought I'd like to hear the whole series. This is great. “When the student is ready the master will appear” sort of thing. 
  Thanks again, Darrell