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The Unbearable Automaticity of Beingkelamuni said Jun 8, 2:35 PM: |
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I am currently writing some “ghost articles,” short lectures that are intended to sound like college lectures, for an English textbook that tests students' reading level. One subject that I have always found interesting, and that I have choosen to write on, is the question of automaticity. It was the subject of the first short article I wrote for a college newspaper as an undergrad. In it, I discussed Gurdjieff, and his notion of the ”sleep walker,” which I was taken with at the time, as well as the problem of free will in Western Philosophy. |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingBalder said Jun 9, 10:30 AM: |
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This is an interesting question, Kela. In a recent thread on another forum, I had highlighted Wilber's recent definition of enlightenment:
This could be read as the ultimate (Apollonian) victory of the ego or conscious self, where self as the center of awareness, intention, order, and action has now transcended, included, and subordinated all other forms of knowing and being. This apotheosis of the Apollonian subject would appear to be in keeping with the related aim of attaining lucidity in all states. But is that what is meant? Wilber, I think, would probably contest this, but I'll return to this question later. For now, I want to ask first for some clarification. You used the abbreviation (JK) next to the word, intelligence. Were you referring to J. Krishnaurti? If so, were you suggesting that Krishnamurti's teachings on the awakening of intelligence are in accord with the 3rd force / 4th force notions of the causal self, as center of action, will, and awareness? If so, that's not how I read K. When discussing the awakening of intelligence, he often talks of being “empty” of any ordering or controlling center – of simply “letting the situation act,” or letting insight/action arise as appropriate to the situation. In these instances, he appears to be describing something more like “flow” or a kind of automaticity, to the degree that it is not self-conscious – though I believe he would likely resist identifying “intelligent action” with conditioning. I do not think he would identify choiceless awarness (lucidity) with conscious self-direction. |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of Beingkelamuni said Jun 9, 12:38 PM: |
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Hi Balder, |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingMoneynot said Jun 17, 4:10 PM: |
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Dear Kelamuni, This is a stretch, but impressonistically, seems to fit some of the theme above. The following link is about a kind of flow coming out of structures (including mental “structures”?) and I even make up a little theory called “fractal phenomenology” (I am long on creativity and short on analysis, but it may have some applicability to your ideas above - at least that is what my mind “automatically” sensed). Let me know if the ideas in this link/post match your line of thought at all. And let me know if my ideas were even coherent and understandable. I would appreciate your standing in the “stretch”, like standing in the synapse of a neuron cell - that is, if you feel up to being so “chemical-like”. |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingNickeson said Jun 9, 3:14 PM: |
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A few thoughts: |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingBalder said Jun 9, 4:58 PM: |
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Therefore: I don't think Balder's use of the word automaticity in regard to JK's “emptiness” or letting the situation act is quite correct. |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingNickeson said Jun 9, 5:26 PM: |
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Balder, |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingMoneynot said Jul 3, 7:59 AM: |
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Balder, Yes, Nickeson seemed to help clarify the intended meaning of the term “automaticity”, as contrasted to what might be Gordon Allport's “functional autonomy” or Bohm's “reflexive” aspect of conditioned “thought” mascarading as real thinking. Sleepwalking and automaticity are not flow. And yet there is semantic satiation (often in saying a word over and over until it seems strange and novel, suggesting the left brain is numbed out and then opens a door to the right brain which seems to specialize in processing novel situations where there are no, or less, familiar structures by which to process the stimuli). The overlearning mentioned at the begining of this discussion may have functioned as a left brain inhibitor and released creative flow. If that is the case, then the overlearning is serving a conscious advance toward a higher stage of artistic performance, and would seem to be in the ballpark of “automaticity”. Would drinking to relax the nerves and tone down the left brain also aid in musical automaticity? Certainly not if the musician was drunk to the point of sleepwalking, but perhaps if it opened a door to the right brain flow, but without compromising a necessary amount of left brain control. Automaticity would seem to involve balance and integration. As such, it seems a very worthwhile topic for an “integral” life offshoot as this particular forum. |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingMark said Jul 3, 8:06 AM: |
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Great points Darrell. You should know that I'm extremely biased whenever the term, “integral” is mentioned. As far as I'm concerned, it means, “fuck you”. |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingMark said Jul 3, 8:24 AM: |
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BTW Darrell, they are an offshoot of us! |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingMoneynot said Jul 3, 7:46 AM: |
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Thanks Nickleson, that clarified what “automaticity” probably is meant to signify - especially what you said toward the very end of your comment: ”Automaticity has to do with something that is consciously practiced while the sleepwalker isn't conscious to begin with, only imitative, reactive and willing to be herded around.” |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of Beingkelamuni said Jun 10, 10:11 AM: |
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1. Is it possible to talk about this sort of stuff without getting normative? |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingBalder said Jun 10, 11:01 AM: |
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Steven, yes, I agree – I think there is a relationship. In Levin's reading of Merleau-Ponty (and TSK as well), one of the metaphors used is “jazz” – a highly creative play taking place in a field of open attention. |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingBalder said Jun 10, 12:37 PM: |
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Although a bit of a tangent, here are some definitions of transersonal psychology by some of the 'big names' in the field: |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of Beingkelamuni said Jun 10, 12:52 PM: |
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Thanks Balder. Those definitions certainly help me with my problem here. |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingBalder said Jun 11, 7:33 AM: |
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Having reread your intial response, I'm assuming now that you are not saying that JK should not be a object of study in 4th force psychology, but merely that his notion of choiceless awareness is not in accord with the notion of a “causal self as the center of action.” |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingMark said Jun 11, 10:40 AM: |
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The Unbearable Automaticity of Being: Yes, exactly. |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingBalder said Jun 11, 7:46 AM: |
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In relation to your question, the following may or may not be helpful. It's part of an essay on enactivism I posted earlier, entitled Consciousness After Postmodernism, by Ralph Ellis. |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingMark said Jun 11, 9:14 AM: |
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“But proprioceptive imagery is directed toward something that is neither clearly subject nor clearly object – my embodied self.” |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingAnnie said Jun 11, 11:07 AM: |
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Balder, Thanks for posting this; I do see how all of those elements combined are part of the tuning in process. The structure of the brain can be realized when one can feel certain energies stimulating different ways of feeling or thinking. One can also recognize the imagination as a tool for more of a planned reception. Another aspect that was offered is the preparation of the body – physically, one must adjust to the degree of energy without hindrance. This energy in the many forms that it takes is probably the most difficult to translate, the structure that must proceed it in my mind anyway would be almost a separation of body and mind. My other thought is that this energy may not be for reception with understanding and may in fact be creating the structure. I think that one must act before one can become conscious of the environment is also true, this is never limited by time so we cannot miss an event. What it seems that we can miss is our responsiveness in “time” to stimulation. I am referring to “responsive” as an action; this action is initiated by the environment but received because one is receptive. The other point that is made regarding structuring the body in accordance with that which consciousness can receive seems more like the “flow”, it was described like rhythmically moving while throwing a ball. I think we could apply this to all forms of conscious awareness, once it is navigated properly the flow begins. Thoughts and emotions in balance would suggest this flow. |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingMoneynot said Jun 18, 3:47 PM: |
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Annie, This is a fascinating statement you made: ”My other thought is that this energy may not be for reception with understanding and may in fact be creating the structure.” I will groove on it and think about it for awhile, as it rings true to me. Especially in my hobby/value of trying to “think like energy” (shifting away from thinking like matter). Thanks. |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of Beingkelamuni said Jun 11, 11:48 AM: |
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Thanks for posting this Balder. I went to the original and note that Ralph Ellis wrote this. As I was initially reading the above, I was under the impression that you wrote it, thinking, hmmm heady stuff. :-) I'll give this a closer read. I seem to remember reading something about Derrida's argumentation that makes use of the idea of proprioceptive imagery being directed toward something that is neither subject nor object. I was researching “the phenomenology of inner time consciousness” and came across the idea. Something that has always interested me, which has not really been fully explored, is how Derrida's analysis of time vis a vis Husserl approaches that of the Madhyamikas vis a vis the Abhidharmists. |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingBalder said Jun 11, 11:54 AM: |
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Ooo, yes, I can see how you'd get that impression; I just went back and added in the proper attribution… |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingNickeson said Jun 11, 12:28 PM: |
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In short, being inseparable from our environment, and synchronized in concert with it, we and our environment (using the resources at hand–history, material needs and momentary events) jointly make ourselves up as we go along. No homunculi, no essences, no causal self, only shifting patterns of energy that are fully adequate to all contingencies. Each action lays still another yellow brick in that sublime road to entropic stasis. |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingMark said Jun 11, 12:38 PM: |
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Dorothy: [has just arrived in Oz, looking around and awed at the beauty and splendor] Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more. |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingAnnie said Jun 11, 4:40 PM: |
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Hi Steven, It's kind of funny that you mention the word “homunculi”, I actually had to look it up and realized how appropriate that word is. It seems to me that we do have some pre-disposition and whether we want to see it as growing-up or as the dormant that awakens. Either way it appears to me that it was already there. In the same way a pre-disposition for remaining at a certain level is also already there. The “shifting patterns of energy that are fully adequate” continues to remain as a choice; given our individual circumstances we do surprise God. Surprise because it has everything to do with our own creativity and the ability to imagine. I think this is where many people get stuck; they have to make the transition from seeing obstacles to seeing needs. Once your focus turns to what is required Love just finds a way. It still has the look and feel of choice because of all the many times that you may fall. Something Theresa said that has always stuck with me: God treats us like a small child, He stands at the top of the stairs calling us to climb knowing our little legs will never be able to maneuver the stairs, we struggle with each step and sometimes fall backwards, but he continues to call for us. Then one day, maybe because He can’t stand to see us suffer for another minute, he picks us up and carries us to the top. I can’t tell you the number of times I have hit bottom, just hoping that there was not another bottom any lower, I am still wondering how many more. As near as I can figure it is each time that I choose to get up I find myself having reached a new level. |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingMoneynot said Jun 18, 9:18 AM: |
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Balder, I loved that comment. I didn't have time to get all the way through, but about half way through I thought “the marriage of sense (occipital) and soul (frontal+limbic, especially right frontal)”. This upper right quad viewpoint does, in my opinion, shed light on the interplay of intention and consciousness. There is a marriage going on - and integration of Luria's “functional systems” of sensory and action/agency/implimentaion/”operating” (as in the postmetaphysical's emphasis on identifying the set of operations, or frame, with which one's awareness is taking place). |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingNickeson said Jun 10, 4:27 PM: |
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Balder, |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingMoneynot said Jun 18, 8:50 AM: |
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Dear Kelamuni, I enjoyed processing your ideas about automatic flow which at times seems independent of “awareness”. It helped me dig deeper into my own thoughts and writings and valuing of awareness (I do give it priority over action). You point out a legitimate anomaly to the assumption of the primacy of awareness, offer a null hypothesis. And what does that null hypothesis serve? Ironically, it serves… well, it serves awareness. There are apparently other dimensions/factors to awareness than simply observing or “noting” (noting would be more like identifying/classifying sort of “thought”, perhaps an initial stage of identification and classification, but the beginning of “note taking” nonetheless, and note taking involves an organizing of information). I recalled an idea that “lowering resistance” seemed to be a factor which closely interacts, or contributes to, “awareness”. This lowering of (mental/psychic) resistance would also seem to be involved in another mental dimension - “wholeness”, or what I call “whole-mind activity”. To me, a whole-mind activity would spread the mind out and more-or-less automatically lower resistance of the individual parts of mind we call “thoughts”. A spreading out and lowering of resistance of thought would also seem to be required for (or at least significantly involved in) David Bohm's notion of “proprioceptive thought” - a kind of thought that is not merely reflexive and habitual, but is aware of itself, in the manner that the body is aware of itself in relation to its various body parts and in relation to the space those parts occupy. Bohm thought of proprioceptive thought as being thought that is more self-aware than regular thought which is largely a robotic habit. Proprioceptive thought would allow for both awareness and action/flow at the same time, at the cost of “identification”. I think that my “whole-mind activity” and Bohm's “proprioceptive thought” and the idea of “lowering the mind's resistence” (in which the mental activity is seen as having a physical aspect of being like energy, or electrical, and electrical current can have higher or lower resistance), dance closely together or, in terms of the statistical method of factor analysis, “co-vary”. Thinking of each of these ideas (“awareness”, “whole-mind activity”, “lowered resistance”, “proprioceptive thought”) as being mental factors (or, in my book, The Marketing of Virtue, I call “doors” - from Aldous Huxely - to the whole-mind state, to awareness, to spirituality, and to the mind-as-tool which fashions all other tools - “the master tool”) may help make sense of the apparent discrepancies between “awareness” and “automatcity”. The awareness which is most useful/applicable/functional to being fully human seems to be of a soft thinking variety which is formed from a comming together, an “interaction', of the above factors (and probably additional factors, or doors, as well). |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingMark said Jun 18, 10:26 AM: |
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Hi Darrell, |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingMark said Jun 18, 2:44 PM: |
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On second thought Darrell, I'll explore some local options first. |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingMoneynot said Jun 18, 3:42 PM: |
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Mark, Local options would be best, because Becky is in some ways my compliment, and she is much more reluctant to go out on a lark or whim, such as sharing space with a man she only knows to be a very good pen pal of mine. Interesting that Becky and my personality types seem to fit our astrological signs - she a water sign Scorpio, and I a fire sign Leo. She likes to savor things and treasure them quietly, whereas I process outwardly, like running a circus. I can't speak for her, but I am pretty sure she would feel defensive about opening up that much with a relative stranger. I am sure she would feel differently once she got to know you, but for know it would be too “wierd” and uncertain for her. And, although I chat like a loose explorer ready to forge into new frontiers, my frontiers are more in the are of thought/conceptualization. My lifestyle is fairly conservative and “square”. How I think and how I do are two different things, and Becky lives with how I do day to day life. She never married a Bohemian, nor even an adventurer, but a dreamer who verges on being Walter Mitty. She loves the exploration, but only the slow and measured applications of that thought. You and I together would scare her because we would be moving way too fast for her sensitivities and sensibilities. I think it would backfire. |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingMark said Jun 18, 7:01 PM: |
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Kela gave me the nuances Darrell. I'm not a coach; just trying to keep up with you all… |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of Beingkelamuni said Jun 18, 1:33 PM: |
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Thanks Darrell. My post was written rather off the cuff, and I regret not spending more time on it and pondering the ideas presented in it more intently. |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingMoneynot said Jun 18, 4:06 PM: |
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The garden, the knowledge of… (good and evil and other “things”), and the Tree of Life. Those mythic depictions seem to be of stages of mastery, whether of collective mind's mastery/evolution, or a fiddler learning to be a miestro (sp?). |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of Beingtheurj said Jun 18, 5:02 PM: |
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As a former competitive “performance” dancer I understand the above. The performance before judges and a crowd changes the entire dynamic and one feeds off of the audience to create a unique dance within that context. Same dance routine, same partner, different day, different judges, different audience, different performance. And yes, one reason performing is addictive is due to the ecstasis of becoming someting much larger than oneself. Plus there's the adulation of an appreciative audience. Little do they understand how much they were a part of creating that performance. |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingMark said Jun 18, 6:43 PM: |
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“Plus there's the adulation of an appreciative audience. Little do they understand how much they were a part of creating that performance.” |
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Re: The Unbearable Automaticity of BeingMoneynot said Jul 1, 12:33 PM: |
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Dear Kelamuni, Whether my understanding of “automaticity” is precise or not, the impression I had of it, and the thinking about it, contributed significantly to one of the better songs I have ever written. You were looking at a postitive kind of automaticity which helps bring flow back into an art performance, but the conversation also reminded me of literature in the early stages of theorizing about sex offenders (I worked in that field prior to retirement). Groth, in Out of the Shadows noticed that many sex offenses occur in the context of a “trance” like state in which the individual acts out in a shadow world which may be well hidden from thier “pretending to be normal”. And this acting out “trance” would not be unique to sex offending, but possibly to any acting out which is an unhealthy way to feel the “flow” which may be lacking in the suppressed atmosphere of the daily grind, etc. Also, working as a counsellor in prison, I heard many a two-timin, tale from male inmates, about how they had a night life while trying to also maintain a regular love relationship. Of course, this lifestyle usually ends up causing complications and regrets. It is often too difficult to maintain two lives at once, and the shadow life is fraught with higher risks. So, I wrote a song from this perspective, about a “bad habit” of a double life, but how this becomes such a habit, so automatic, that the narator “only sees what he knows”. After awhile, my prison clients seemed not able to really see a different way of living. This would be the dark side of automaticity, if I am even using the word right. |
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