what can we do to solve definitely the israel-palestine conflict?

and I really mean totally solve it.

This conflict is the archetype of a dialogue between deafs raised ot its highest power. It is one of the last inherited gangrene of the past century, itself being an obstacle to a true planetarization of consciousness.

anyone?

Re: what can we do to solve definitely the israel-palestine confl

wow, if we knew that, xib… 

Re: what can we do to solve definitely the israel-palestine confl

Et oui helas

what about delocating all palestinians toward arab countries thus totally restoring the divine promise?
kidding :-)

Re: what can we do to solve definitely the israel-palestine confl

oh any ideas people?

Re: what can we do to solve definitely the israel-palestine confl

We had a discussion on the Integral Archipelago pod about this before. Read it if you like.

I think the First thing to do is to raise the level of 'informedness' about the issue, because most people, not only americans but aHum hum lots of them, have hair-raising opinions on the matter.

Here's a good article to begin with:
Jonathan Ben-Artzi: The US can bring new hope to the middle east.

And we should also know what the Goldstone Report is.

Additional information here.

The small effort of reading through this material should be enough to provide a similar level of informedness for all interested readers, as a starting point for a constructive discussion.

cheers

Re: what can we do to solve definitely the israel-palestine confl

“… Israelis seeing palestinians as their equal?”
some like the pianist argentinian-born Daniel Barenboim was a friend of Edward said abd worked together in a common cultural projects , Noam Chomsky of course, Tony Judh the english historian, and some  jewish “history revisionists” as they are called. These are the representants of the avant-garde of the socio-cultural development within the Israeli society, they are very likely living among  the so called “diaspora” of Europe and the US, the “intelligentzia”.

Those who obviously want to see palestinians no higher than “rats” are likely to be found among that late old crazy rabbi Mair Kahane and his fascistoid pals, or followers of the present minister Avidgor Lieberman. This  sort of socio-cultural valuing system is predominant among an agrarian mentality style grand israel utopia, the illegal settlers. and their populistic politicians manipulating that sort of suprematistic ideological discourse. 

In the middle, the majority of secular regulars tired of all of that bullshit going on for years and years. These are into the paradigm of social mobility and reducing inequalities in life chances, and the construction of the welfare state for a greater number.

The same differential sociopsychological structure is highly probable among palestinians but fewer at higher level and the rest are spread from regular (industrial beginning of postindustrial society values) probably the majority, to small island of radical islamists , these last are few also.

cheers

Re: what can we do to solve definitely the israel-palestine confl

You probably have heard that the Goldstone Report Resolution has passed the UNO. There were 114 votes for, and 18 against (among the against voters: Israel, the US, and Germany).

Now what does this mean? Pretty much nothing. It is now passed by Mr. Ban Ki Moon to the Security Council, where US-Israeli power play will ensure that the Resolution will be turned down. But then, a UN Resolution is said to be a door-opener for international courts, who then could do their job and prevent future violations of human rights by creating a precedent  and investigating war criminals on both sides of the Wall.

Listen to Mister Goldstone in Dialog with Bill Moyers here.

Article: Leftist Jews defend Goldstone

Re: what can we do to solve definitely the israel-palestine confl

I actually don´t get that strange american attitude toward Israel, that idea of unconditional support. This has been one of the major source of so much bullshit in that region.

Supporting a “weak” state against nasty neighbours, this I can buy, but 
supporting “unconditionally” Goliat (Israel in that role figure now) for ever, just because of not so hiden agendas like one´s vital and strategic interests in that energy rich area of the globe, at the detriment of the palestinian David is a totally different matter.

The palestinians can´t for ever pay for a scandalous situation:  for what the nazis and their european collaborators have done during WWII. What do you think?

cheers

Re: what can we do to solve definitely the israel-palestine confl

very simple: diplomacy. negotiating, even with hamas and hezbolah. this will effectively shut down their militaristic side by getting them talking. also letting go of the fascistic idea of “unconditional support” of isreal. basically telling the republicans to shut the fuck up and dumping their ridiculous policies of the last 10 years. ask any diplomat in the world who has his head half screwed on and he will tell you the same thing.

Re: what can we do to solve definitely the israel-palestine confl

This evening, I saw “Oscar Schindl´s list” of Stephen Spielberg on TV.
The whole atmosphere of the film is just a suffocating nightmare.
Someone once said ”the concentration camps were created because we already have them inside ourselves”. Well quite obvious this statement.

I agree Kela, It is very urgent to begin a serious dialogue with Hamas an Hezbollah. All that paranoid talk on axe of evil and rogue states is so enormously arrogant.

Now for the palestinian people living behind a separation wall, in a large jail style “Flight from New York” of John Carpenter, on the west bank of the Jordan river, can only be experienced as a deep deep humiliation. This is a terrible mistake done by the israeli government.

Re: what can we do to solve definitely the israel-palestine confl

I think it is also instructive how the militant wing of the IRA was effectively neutered.

Also, the moderate voices of Jews and Israelis need to speak up and be heard more.

Re: what can we do to solve definitely the israel-palestine confl

yes, I agree.

Beside the noise done by some “Grand Israel” or “Grand palestine” nuts, it basically looks like the majority of the jewish population is fed up of that endless cycle of violences since 60 years of the birth of the state, and want really to find a viable solution. I think the palestinians are also willing. Regulars just want to live a decent life, that´s all.

I want to be optimistic on that. Obama has already brought a different attitude , The US just need to go on in that way, and completely give up the past unilateral manner of hakwish conservatives, which only created chaos.

In regard to Iran it would be just suicidal madness, a catastrophe, for the entire region if Israel bombed the iranian nuclear installations. The US have a predominant responsability to chill the israeli nervousness on that.

Re: what can we do to solve definitely the israel-palestine confl

X: I actually don´t get that strange american attitude toward Israel, that idea of unconditional support. This has been one of the major source of so much bullshit in that region.

I think it's related to oil.  In the early 1970s, two events happened that showed the Americans they needed a military presence near Middle East oil.  The first is their own oil production peaked.  The second is the nationalizing sweep that overtook Mid-East oil producing nations.  The oil in those nations had until the 1960s or so been produced by predominantly British and American companies.  Beginning in the 1960s (actually late 50s with Iran), these countries were threatening to, and one after another did, regain nationalized control over their oil production. 

The first real test of this new nationalized power was the Opec embargo in 1973.

It was after this time the US took to supplying Israel with monetary and military support.  Israel is an American client state in this regard, and doesn't act militarily, IMO, without American sanction.  This is Chomsky's view also.

The connection with Israel gave the Americans, whose prosperity was oil driven, a military presence near the planet's main oil producing region, their own production being in decline. 

Re: what can we do to solve definitely the israel-palestine confl

Yes, the oil sure is part of what's going on.

But my guess is that the 'prophecy' of the promised land and all kind of mythic storytelling like the second coming of the christ and so on also play a role in why the US and Israel cling so much together.

That means we have the LR (the oil) and the LL (the prophecy). What else? :-P

Re: what can we do to solve definitely the israel-palestine confl

This is a good question. IMO the American Government should cease supporting the Isreal illegal acts for starteers. Then should impose on Isreal a formula for peace with the Palestinians. They should get, the Palestinians, a viable state on the West Bank, and Gaza. The Palestinians should accept the existence of Isreal, and Jerusalem should be shared by both the Palestinians and the Isrealis as a capital.
But  I doubt that happens because the Israelis dont want peace, IMO.

Re: what can we do to solve definitely the israel-palestine confl

I like this approach: nonviolence

Read a Peace Report- A letter from the Palestinian Nonviolence .


Arun Gandhi and the Question of Palestinian Nonviolence


Palestinians who see nonviolence as their weapo


Reporting from Bilin, West Bank - Every Friday, Mohammed Khatib's forces assemble for battle with the Israeli army and gather their weapons: a bullhorn, banners – and a fierce belief that peaceful protest can bring about a Palestinian state.

A few hundred strong, they march to the Israeli barrier that separates the tiny farming community of Bilin from much of its land. They chant and shout. A few teenagers throw stones.

Khatib helped launch the weekly ritual five years ago in an attempt to “re-brand” a Palestinian struggle often associated with rocket attacks and suicide bombers.

“Nonviolence is our most powerful weapon,” says the media-savvy secretary of the Bilin village council. “If they cannot accuse us of terrorism, they cannot stop us. The world will support us.”

Re: what can we do to solve definitely the israel-palestine confl

I read an article entitle “Edward Said and the Politics of Peace” in A Journal of Contemporary Thought where the author maintains that in order to arrive at non-violence, we must first understand the various “dialouges” of violence, as he puts it.  I see this as a rationale way of understanding the reality in the West Bank and Gaza in that in  order to inform non-violent measures, we must first understand why violence seems like the most direct and, at times, the only means of dialogue.  Also we must understand how certain violences are underscored in the media, while other forms of violence (such as the thirst that Palestinians face), is virtually invisibile in the media.