Consciousness Thread Slug-Fest

In fairness to all those reading the Consciousness thread, and to all, not just Xibalba, who participated today's slug-fest in that thread, I wish to make a few moderator comments about ad hominem remarks made by various participants.  From my own personal read, and as best I can understand simply reading what was written, I can see why Ted felt as he did that he was bullied (I'll grant him the term he used).  Here's the sequence as I see it:

Re: Consciousness Thread Slug-Fest

Hi Tom

THX for that sort of moderation.
I will put a break on my french temper. And good to know too that jokes on authors are are not welcome, I just didn´t know.

Regards to all in the spirit of forgiveness.

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Hi X.  Bruce and Jim can perhaps pipe in on moderation rules, such as they may be.  For my part, I can tend to be critical of certain authors and have said things that surely must offend others who appreciate them.  My second to last paragraph reflects a certain recent reconsideration in that regard.  I suppose the more disciplined road, speaking to myself, is to quit any sort of personal remarks, but to remain honest in expressing opinions absent personal overtones.  I perceive moderation in this pod to be moderation-lite, and I personally prefer it that way.  Freedom of speech is too high a value to me, and I'm loath to think people will edit and reformulate their honestly held perspectives out of fear of moderation.  That is certainly not my intention, nor Bruce's and Jim's, or so I perceive.

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Well OK, I apologize too. No problem there.

Now we must understand, there is two sides to Dawkins, even Wilber too, the scientist or so-called pandit in Wilber's case, and then theres' the shit disturber side. And this is were the controversy comes in.

But enough, I got a load off my chest. ;-). However I have no problem with science per se and I think that is X's POV also.

Thank you,

Gad

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I have been out much of the day (trying to get work done, instead of playing on the internet, always a big temptation), and have returned this evening to find this thread.  I support Tom's moderation here and agree with his balanced comments.  I also understand why Ted may have felt ganged up on and laughed at, but I hope he does not elect to leave based on this recent exchange alone. 

As Tom noted, while I did recently move to make this forum semi-private (requiring an application letter to join) because of what I perceived as an influx of people little interested in the themes of the group, with a consequent decline in the focus, quality, and depth of discussions here, I nevertheless prefer to take a “moderation-lite” approach in general, asking members only to be mindful of the basic forum guidelines (which include a request not to engage in ad hominem remarks, and to avoid flaming and trolling).  Jokes or critical remarks about authors are not unwelcome here – I have also made them myself – but this recent incident is a good reminder to also consider the potential impact of mocking or sarcastically dismissive comments on participants in a discussion who may hold said authors and perspectives in higher esteem than we do.  I fully agree with Tom's comment here: “Freedom of speech is too high a value to me, and I'm loath to think people will edit and reformulate their honestly held perspectives out of fear of moderation,” so the call for mindfulness of our impact on others is not meant to be taken as prohibition of a little healthy irreverence.  Balance, mes freres et soeurs.  As Krishnamurti would say, let our discussions and debates here be grounded in a spirit of affection.

Speaking to my own behavior here recently, I feel I have been uncharacteristically impatient and “short” with others of late, and I apologize for that.  I think stress in other areas of my life has leaked, on occasion, into my interactions with others here.

All the best,

Bruce

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I second, or third, what Tom and Bruce say, and Tom, I appreciate the moderation skills you've demonstrated here.

As for ridiculing authors, philosophers, etc., I think everyone here should be free to indulge in such speech as they wish, but I hope that everyone is also aware that ad hominem arguments and “poisoning the well” (e.g., using ridicule to discredit someone's ideas before the ideas have been discussed) are not substitutes for real arguments.

If a poster makes ad hominem (mocking, ridiculing, sarcastic, gratuitously dismissive) comments about an author or philosopher, etc., it leads me to think that it would be a waste of time and energy to try to have an intelligent discussion about that author's ideas with that poster.

While I share Balder's concern about what he calls “the potential impact of mocking or sarcastically dismissive comments on participants in a discussion who may hold said authors and perspectives in higher esteem than we do,” I am far more concerned about the fact that such comments do not rise to the level of argument and basically function as conversation stoppers.

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Hi Tom,
I think your moderator comments are spot on and to you, Balder, Jim and the rest of the forum moderators (I'm not sure who all of you are) I apologize for being part of this ugly game, which is damaging the atmosphere at this forum. Thankfully the outcome was that nobody felt they had to leave this forum, we all got a lesson on what it feels like to be attacked close at heart and hopefully with this in fresh memory, think twice before we mount such an attack at others. Jim also brings to attention that mocking language, even if not adressed directly to a particular forum participant, can have a negative impact on the quality of the discussions. If one holds this forum close to heart, that can be more hurtful than a personal attack would be.

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I am very thankful to see what is going on here. I am grateful for this group, a unique one on Gaia, and will continue to do my best to contribute in a helpful and positive way.

Love,

Nicole

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Now that it is confession time, I would like to add a few words.
Again, I am not one to advise people about keeping cool, since I have had some pretty flaming disputes on forums. Though once on a Buddhist forum I was so taken aback by the vehemenent abuse done to some followers of Fredrick Lenz that led to the Lenzers, literally going crazy and retaliating in a viciousness I myself, a guy from the hood, couldnt stomach.
So I am truly in tune with Tom's analytical post of what occured to rile brother Tom. That is a useful thing to do. I once felt abusd by a forum moderater here and Zaadaz [ at the time] didnt analyze the posts to see who was the abuser like Tom did, therfore left me having to go it alone and defend myself against some damm fools. Believe me, I am very capable of doing that, but I think those in control should take the lead when human nature goes awry and the lower soul of man takes over.
I must confess that I have never found it neccasary to offend people, unless I am offended first. Then I will somtimes go too far in self defense, a sign of my own lack of spiritual growth I wish to overcome.

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Tom, Much Thanks for your role as moderator. Without this function, “spirituality” and “consciousness” will not work very well. 
   I ran a men's spirituality group in prison, and we would end up ego-istically, and quite non-spiritually, arguing points. On about 3 occassions we were able to look at our own behavior, notice the irony of how non-spiritual it was, and then make corrections. 
   Once, a participant had a pet in the room (prison had a dog training program), I, as facilitator/moderator, shifted the attention to the way the participant cared for the pet, and everyone melted into that mode of relating - far from the contentuous and firey mode only moments before. We took this as a valuable object lesson for true “spirituality”. This was, in my opinion, the high point of the whole program. 
  Perhaps our learning here to step back and to re-approach the “matter” at hand in a more civil or careful fashion, is a similar object lesson for us. We can at least focus on our “pet” project together (a mutual “pet” because it is not earning wages for us as individuals). 
   We are not in literal prison, but, rest assured, we are all imprisoned by our limited understandings. Fortunately, forums such as this offer an occassional furlow. Thanks for acting as moderator, and thus allowing for the “furlow” opportunity to continue. 
   Darrell

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Hi Darrell, I like your observations.  I've often felt these on-line forums are actually quite fertile catalysts for a certain inner development.  To be challenged at the level of (often personally hard fought) ideas is not easy to face.  Much grist for the mill, methinks!  And something that should not be too tamped down.  Keep the fires hot to melt fixated assumptions.

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Yes, It is almost like we are needing to learn to watch our own minds as they project. It may be that the way the projector is working is more important to learn than to hash out the content of the projection. The “truth” may end up being more like a skill, like the prison group participant's ability to caringly relate to his pet during the discussion in which we were all flexing our intellectual muscles. Perhaps the key to development would be the ability to do both, at the same time - think, but watch (awareness independent of discrete thought) at the same time. If we can learn that here, then the discussion has truly taught us a worthwile mental/spiritual skill that we can use in many other “forums” of life. 
   Darrell

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Anyway, while giving Tom credit, I just wonder where was his analytical skills when I was under attack on this forum?
Not that I need his defense, but I think peoples predudices should be pointed out. That goes for Mr Balder as well!
Be consistent

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I'm sorry you felt under attack here, Zak.  I guess I am so used to you being on the attack (against Wilber, against integral spirituality, against post-metaphysics, against damn fools and hypocrites everywhere), that I might have mistaken that situation for one of the regular melees you like to engage in!

Seriously, if you ever feel ganged up on or unfairly treated here, please speak up, or write to me (or Tom or Jim).  I do want to be consistent in the moderation here and apologize for not recognizing your need.

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You know Balder, believe me there is not one of you who can deal on my level, including yourself. In fact, I am very disapointed in you.
But regarding your point, you are right I am very well perpered to deal with attacks on my perspective and person.
Of course you realize I didnt complain when you mocked my book, when I dared to criticize your idol Ken Wilber.
I let it go, because an intellectual guy like you cant really undrstand mystical stuff, so I dont expect you to respect me.
You just should stop pretending you are an objective observer of Wilber, an not a fan.

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I think your boasts about yourself are sometimes over the top, Zak, I admit that; but I do like and respect you, and I'm serious when I say that I am sorry you felt ganged up on or unfairly treated beforehand.  You have my word that I will watch out for anything like that in the future.

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Boasts about myself! I always back up what I aver with facts, do you do the same?
Balder stop trying to keep your reputation intact. Dont you know by now that means nothing.
Your hatchet man, Tom, is as, and had been as insulting to me, as anyone, but of course, I let it go, because I know somthing about you and him, no one here knows.
As I know things about Wilber, no one knows. Don't worry, I wont tell, because people here couldnt handle it. And you and Tom, know I know it, most likely.
And if you dont, then you are not that bright.
Remember Balder, you admitted you were basically a racist. And liked Wilber because he was a White man.
I appreciate that candor, but also understand you basically have a problem. As I myself do, since I also have problems in that regard.
Its not even our fault, since the civilization for centuries has fostered inate racism in the matrix of society, we could hardly expect to be free from such pernicious conditioning, can we?
Sure I am an angry man. For I am a black man. And I will be amongst those who will always be on the side of the downtrodden, [Like Jesus Christ himself was, eventhough he was of the ruling class], and you a white man, will always be on the side of the ruling elite that you identify with. You cant help it, its only human nature.
Your attempts to bait me, have been fully noted, BTW.
If you lack the intellectual capacity, or real knowledge to debate me on Wilbers ideas, [ somthing you have never done] then that's allright, one can only do what their capacity is capable of after all.
As for Tom, your hatchet man, and his nihlist Nagarjuna based front, I have yet to find it even worth responding to seriously!
Peace

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Zak, it's good you're getting this out.  Btw, I don't mind if you tell people here what you know about me, whatever that might be.  I don't keep secrets.  I've masturbated in funny positions, I shoplifted as a youth, I've enjoyed some non-traditional sexual fun with women, I've lied and cheated, and I kill daily.

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“… non-traditional sexual fun with women…”
haha. we know what that means in canada, tom. ;-)

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Zak, I hear a lot of hurt here.  I'm sorry if I've contributed to any of it.  I thought we had a pretty good relationship, starting from years ago back in the Integral Naked days.  I've sparred with you jokingly because I thought that was okay with you, knowing you often have used the same approach with me and others. 

About racism, I don't remember what comments I might have made that you're referring to.  I agree that, in our society (the U.S.), all of us are bound to unconsciously pick up pernicious traces of racism, including myself; but I certainly don't identify as a racist, I don't think I suffer from racism as a defining attitude or orientation (I've lived in the South and know what that looks like), and I don't “like Wilber because he's white.”  I'm not sure where that idea came from! 

Regarding whatever secret knowledge you say you have about me and Tom and Wilber, I have nothing to hide – I'm open to discussing whatever faults and weaknesses and foibles I do have (though probably not always undefensively!) – and there's also nothing about Wilber that I'm not willing to discuss. 

Best wishes,

Bruce

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Zak, you're right, there has often been an edge in my responses to you, and I've noticed something similar in some of Bruce's responses to you.  I haven't noticed other people, but I've been a moderator for only a short period now, and I may require more time to learn my role and to notice patterns etc.

My own edginess comes from this: you often say, or imply, that I and others haven't the ability or capacity to engage or understand mystical experience, and that hits my “I'm invisible” button to which I've responded by degrees defensively.  I was a second child to a brother who was but a year older than I in a circumstance where, when I now look back on my youth, I often see but a gaping void where memories of a certain natural self-perception and awareness should be.  That's my button.  It's one reason why I don't prefer the word emptiness as a spiritual goal.

To give you some backdrop regarding mysticism, so you can better know my context when I write, I tend to live on the mystical side in life, most of my private expressions are mystical in character, and I stayed out of academia for the very reason I felt it to drain experiential including mystical factors from the analytic path.  I've never seen these two as separate, and the mysticism I prefer is thus quite naturally an embodied type that loves this planet and my little place in it.  I'm not an ascender by inclination, but prefer a more feminine inwardness.

But back to my defensiveness.  I'll keep that in check.  And I apologize.

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I too am a second child. But that in itself means nothing. If you have a bad mother it doesn’t matter where you are in the biological scheme of things, you are fucked anyway. That aside, it doesn’t matter what you are, it only matters that people either be honest or be consistent in what they do. You have been honest so that is enough. Balder probably felt dissed at some of my critique of Wilber, I am sorry he felt that way. I thought he was an objective observer of him enough, but he isn’t. That’s not anything he should be ashamed of.  Don’t worry guys I soon will be weary of this forum and will leave.I have said all I can about the philosophy of IPM. True analyses of this philosophy I haven’t found on this forum.Most are not dedicated enough to deal with it, and others are too attached emotionally to its dogma. I have studied it intensely, and written what I think are intelligent essays on its elements, but I have found that there are either Wilber acolytes; people who don’t really understand the issues [because they haven’t delved enough in the theory] therefore there is very little in-depth intelligent objective discourse on Wilber’s very relevant theories.That to me is a shame. 

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Zak, I am black too. I don't think it entitles me to be angry. Can you explain why your being black entitles you to be angry?

I would also like to speak to this issue of having a “bad” mother. Some people think I am a bad mother because I believe in a lot of freedom for my children. I have thought at times when I was younger that I had a bad mother because she would rage and use her slipper on me when out of control. Since, I have learned compassion for her and grown to understand that she was much more caring than her own mother, who may have been an improvement on hers.

And I like to think that the way that I have mothered is an improvement on her mothering, in that it was much more informed and conscious, and that my girls, should they become mothers, may well be better than me at that.

All that being the case, what is being predicted by having a “bad” mother? It is an opportunity for learning that can, with an attitude of openness and willingness to work hard on oneself, lead to great growth and compassion.

Love,

Nicole

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Nicole, It might be wise not to admit you are black around here. JUST JOKING! ha ha ha ha ha
Anyway,
Being black in the last five hundred years entiles you to anger, my dear
If it doesnt fit you though dont wear it.

Regarding this new morality
I agree I never thought they were saying to lighten up on criticizing Gurus.
But another word on my own personality. Balder mentioned my inclination to somtimes get into fights. But I challenge anyone to find EVER a post of mine where I attacked anyone personally FIRST. It doesnt exist, UNLESS, they attacke me UNJUSTLY first. Granted, somtimes I will  retaliate nuclearly. But remember Ken Wilber with his famous Wyatt Earp post! Now we know where he got that from? Since I declared on INTEGRAL NAKED, that I WAS A GUNFIGHTER long before Wilber did.
Since twas I who first used that terminology on INTEGRAL NAKED, it stands to reason Ken WIlber got it from me.
Ha ha ha ha ha
There he goes again copying others peoples stuff

Nevertheless
I am the fastest gun in the West people
dont forgrt it

Re: Consciousness Thread Slug-Fest

While I think that personal ad hominem attacks on forum participants can often be in bad taste, and should be avoided, I think it is a bit much to ask that we pull our punches when addressing a particular philosopher or scholar or guru, who is not a forum member, simply because someone might have a thin skin where their cherished idol is concerned. There are limits to this, of course, and that is where is the implication is something like ”…and your an idiot, too, because Dawkins/Wilber/Ramana is an idiot.” In such cases, it should be the call of the moderator to interpret if that is the implication.

I personally am not going to pull my punches where other authors or gurus are concerned, but I certainly will not attack such individuals in with the intent to simply ridicule their “followers.” The views given by posters here on the relative worth of gurus and philosophers are the opinions of the posters, and we should keep in mind that such comments are always prefaced by “IMO…” whether we say so or not. I think we would, almost all of us, agree that Da is generally free game where attack is concerned, and yet there may be followers of Da here. That being the case, given the new criteria, even labels like “the dazzler” could be taken by such individuals as ad hominem attacks.

At the same time, I agree with Jim that ad hominem attacks are no substitute for good arguments, and in the spirit of the maintaining the quality of this forum, I think we should all keep this in mind.

BTW, did anyone ask Ted if he felt bullied because Dawkins was being attacked? Or did Ted simply feel bullied?

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what is so wrong with calling things the way you see them???

if something is idiotic, or if someone is acting idiotic…what is so god awful wrong with expressing what we think honestly???

now, I say that we don't attack the person, but what is so wrong with questioning beliefs of said person???  or calling them on their actions???  while I realize that when our belief systems are attacked we tend to take it personal, but is that not just a lesson concerning attachments that needs to be learned???  or maybe even an aspect of an unhealthy ego???

geeze…what are we here for???  just to pat each other on the back and say good job and encourage the conditioning of our ego's through belief systems…???

or to say hey…you might consider that you're choking on your beliefs…do you even know what your beliefs are???  or…are you so conditioned by another's beliefs that you have no real beliefs of your own???  

maybe we are just all scared to get honest and speak what we really think so we invent these rules so we won't step on anyones toes, except of course the toes we want to step on…

don't take it personal or do…i find this very ridiculous…and idiotic…*

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Hi, Kela and Star,

I hear you.  After reading your posts, I went back and read through all of this thread, to check my understanding of what was said against the impression that was apparently made, since unfortunately you both appear to have gotten the idea that the moderators here were asking people not to criticize other authors (Kela's point) or laying down heavy rules and restricting people from honestly speaking their minds (Star's point).  I don't believe anything like that was actually said, and it is certainly not what I intended.  I wouldn't want to participate in a restrictive or phony forum like that either! 

So, here's a summary of our recent comments, which I hope (when read all together) will speak for themselves and will alleviate concerns that any such restrictive or stifling requests are being made:

Tom:

Can we proceed with a little less hostility and a little greater regard for tenor and others' feelings?

I suppose the more disciplined road, speaking to myself, is to quit any sort of personal remarks, but to remain honest in expressing opinions absent personal overtones.

Freedom of speech is too high a value to me, and I'm loath to think people will edit and reformulate their honestly held perspectives out of fear of moderation.  That is certainly not my intention, nor Bruce's and Jim's, or so I perceive.

As Krishnamurti would say, let our discussions and debates here be grounded in a spirit of affection.

I prefer to take a “moderation-lite” approach in general, asking members only to be mindful of the basic forum guidelines (which include a request not to engage in ad hominem remarks, and to avoid flaming and trolling).  Jokes or critical remarks about authors are not unwelcome here…

As for ridiculing authors, philosophers, etc., I think everyone here should be free to indulge in such speech as they wish, but I hope that everyone is also aware that ad hominem arguments and “poisoning the well” (e.g., using ridicule to discredit someone's ideas before the ideas have been discussed) are not substitutes for real arguments.

While I share Balder's concern about what he calls “the potential impact of mocking or sarcastically dismissive comments on participants in a discussion who may hold said authors and perspectives in higher esteem than we do,” I am far more concerned about the fact that such comments do not rise to the level of argument and basically function as conversation stoppers.

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This clarification is very helpful, Bruce, thanks,
Love,

Nicole

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I was not really directing my comment to anyone specific…as usual, I was just being a wiseass…feel free to punish me anyway you see fit…gol*

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yer looking for a spanking now? ;-)

Re: Consciousness Thread Slug-Fest

that might be fun…but you are being cruel to tease me…gol*