MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

I've started this thread just to see what everyone knows about MBTI and what everyone thinks about it.

Have you taken a professional or online test?

What is your type?

Does it fit? 

Which aspects fit and which don't?

Do some descriptions of your type fit and some don't?

Do you think another type fits you better?

Do you think no type fits you perfectly?

Do you disagree with the whole concept of typing people?

Do you believe we can use all functions equally?

Do you have experiences of typology being misused?

Have you studied Jung's writings, MBTI, or other personality theories such as the Big 5?

What is the relationship or not between MBTI and the Enneagram?

What is you perspective on personality?

Is personality simply about our persona?

Is personality a deep structure of the psyche?

Are we born with our types?

Can type change?

How can development occur within a type?

How does type influence experiences and relationships?

Does your career fit your type?

Have you had to learn abilities that didn't come natural to your type?

Blessings,
Marmalade

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

In case anyone is utterly clueless about what MBTI is, here is a helpful link to some introductory info.  This link is from MBTI Central which is probably the single most popular MBTI discussion board.

MBTI Internet Resources

Blessings,
Marmalade

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Right now, I'm quite confused about this. I tested years ago as an ISTJ and then later as an ESTJ but recently I tested as an ENFJ… but I know from what you've told me, Marmalade, that people are not supposed to change types. So was the recent test I did inaccurate, or did I answer the questions wrong, or… ?

Yet, the below seems to fit me well at this stage of my life - and I know I was very very different Iin my early twenties when I first tested out.

Portrait of an ENFJ - Extraverted iNtuitive Feeling Judging
(Extraverted Feeling with Introverted Intuition)

The Giver

As an ENFJ, you're primary mode of living is focused externally, where you deal with things according to how you feel about them, or how they fit into your personal value system. Your secondary mode is internal, where you take things in primarily via your intuition.

ENFJs are people-focused individuals. They live in the world of people possibilities. More so than any other type, they have excellent people skills. They understand and care about people, and have a special talent for bringing out the best in others. ENFJ's main interest in life is giving love, support, and a good time to other people. They are focused on understanding, supporting, and encouraging others. They make things happen for people, and get their best personal satisfaction from this.

Because ENFJ's people skills are so extraordinary, they have the ability to make people do exactly what they want them to do. They get under people's skins and get the reactions that they are seeking. ENFJ's motives are usually unselfish, but ENFJs who have developed less than ideally have been known to use their power over people to manipulate them.

ENFJ's are so externally focused that it's especially important for them to spend time alone. This can be difficult for some ENFJs, because they have the tendency to be hard on themselves and turn to dark thoughts when alone. Consequently, ENFJs might avoid being alone, and fill their lives with activities involving other people. ENFJs tend to define their life's direction and priorities according to other people's needs, and may not be aware of their own needs. It's natural to their personality type that they will tend to place other people's needs above their own, but they need to stay aware of their own needs so that they don't sacrifice themselves in their drive to help others.

ENFJ's tend to be more reserved about exposing themselves than other extraverted types. Although they may have strongly-felt beliefs, they're likely to refrain from expressing them if doing so would interfere with bringing out the best in others. Because their strongest interest lies in being a catalyst of change in other people, they're likely to interact with others on their own level, in a chameleon-like manner, rather than as individuals.

Which is not to say that the ENFJ does not have opinions. ENFJs have definite values and opinions which they're able to express clearly and succinctly. These beliefs will be expressed as long as they're not too personal. ENFJ is in many ways expressive and open, but is more focused on being responsive and supportive of others. When faced with a conflict between a strongly-held value and serving another person's need, they are highly likely to value the other person's needs.

The ENFJ may feel quite lonely even when surrounded by people. This feeling of aloneness may be exacerbated by the tendency to not reveal their true selves.

People love ENFJs. They are fun to be with, and truly understand and love people. They are typically very straight-forward and honest. Usually ENFJs exude a lot of self-confidence, and have a great amount of ability to do many different things. They are generally bright, full of potential, energetic and fast-paced. They are usually good at anything which captures their interest.

ENFJs like for things to be well-organized, and will work hard at maintaining structure and resolving ambiguity. They have a tendency to be fussy, especially with their home environments.

In the work place, ENFJs do well in positions where they deal with people. They are naturals for the social committee. Their uncanny ability to understand people and say just what needs to be said to make them happy makes them naturals for counseling. They enjoy being the center of attention, and do very well in situations where they can inspire and lead others, such as teaching.

ENFJs do not like dealing with impersonal reasoning. They don't understand or appreciate its merit, and will be unhappy in situations where they're forced to deal with logic and facts without any connection to a human element. Living in the world of people possibilities, they enjoy their plans more than their achievements. They get excited about possibilities for the future, but may become easily bored and restless with the present.

ENFJs have a special gift with people, and are basically happy people when they can use that gift to help others. They get their best satisfaction from serving others. Their genuine interest in Humankind and their exceptional intuitive awareness of people makes them able to draw out even the most reserved individuals.

ENFJs have a strong need for close, intimate relationships, and will put forth a lot of effort in creating and maintaining these relationships. They're very loyal and trustworthy once involved in a relationship.

An ENFJ who has not developed their Feeling side may have difficulty making good decisions, and may rely heavily on other people in decision-making processes. If they have not developed their Intuition, they may not be able to see possibilities, and will judge things too quickly based on established value systems or social rules, without really understanding the current situation. An ENFJ who has not found their place in the world is likely to be extremely sensitive to criticism, and to have the tendency to worry excessively and feel guilty. They are also likely to be very manipulative and controling with others.

In general, ENFJs are charming, warm, gracious, creative and diverse individuals with richly developed insights into what makes other people tick. This special ability to see growth potential in others combined with a genuine drive to help people makes the ENFJ a truly valued individual. As giving and caring as the ENFJ is, they need to remember to value their own needs as well as the needs of others.

Jungian functional preference ordering:

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Nicole,

When I first considered what your type might be, I immediately thought that you reminded me of INFJs I've known online except more Extraverted.  You told me you were ISTJ.  My response was that if you were, then you had developed your intuition extremely well… which is a possibility.

I've known you so briefly and in such a narrow context.  I hardly can guess what might have led you to test as ISTJ previously.  Maybe someone important in your life was ISTJ and you were mirroring their behavior or trying to live up to their expectations.  Maybe you were working in a very ISTJ environment at the time.  Or maybe you really are an ISTJ who has developed your non-preferences.

Testing as ISTJ vs ESTJ isn't so remarkable.  Many people feel uncertain about a particular letter.  But the difference between ISTJ and ENFJ is pretty significant.  You could've tested incorrectly in the past or maybe you really did change your type. 

The best way to be certain about type is probably to get a professional to test you.  But if you study the various theories enough, most people can come to a conclusion on their own.  The different theories give you different info.  The INFP forum I'm a member of has several people who figured out their type through Beebe's model of archetypal roles.  I referred about this earlier with you in terms of the ISTJ type.  Berens is another useful theoretician who based her work on Beebe's theory.

Jungian Cognitive Functions

The cognitive functions according to John Beebe

Though John Beebe has not published a type table, the format that Isabel Myers devised can also be applied to his theory. Beebe describes the different cognitive functions' role in the overall personality in terms of various mythic archetypes. Just as in Myers's table, personality types whose primary four functions are completely opposite are separated by one block along diagonals. The same does not apply to the four “shadow” functions, however.

The cognitive functions according to Linda V. Berens

The layout of Berens' type table is unique, and her terminology differs from that of Beebe; however, the ordering of cognitive processes in her and Beebe's models are the same.

If you want a clear example of an ENFJ in action, Oprah Winfrey is it.

Firstly, the Feeling smacks you right in the face: she's a dominant Feeling type, and her Feeling is Extraverted to boot. She's got “community” and “cooperative spirit” (hallmarks of Fe) written all over her. But this is all beside the point.

Instead, what I want to note is the Introverted iNtuition (Ni)-as-Mother archetype that she seems to embody in many ways.

The Mother or Father archetype seems to be our Big Lesson in life - it's what we use to mentor and support others. Ni, meanwhile, is all about making a mental shift and recontextualising. Put it all together and you end up with Oprah evangelising something like The Secret (i.e. the idea that the nature of thought determines the nature of reality).

Lenore Thomson's ideas are very insightful and the Greenlight Wiki about her work is a great resource.  I especially love her description of Introverted Intuition which is something that came up in discussions for the INFJs at Global Chatter.

The cognitive functions according to Lenore Thomson

Lenore Thomson offers yet another model of the cognitive functions. In her book, Personality Type: An Owners Manual, Lenore advances a hypothesis of a modular relationship of the cognitive functions paralleling left-right brain lateralization. In this approach the J-type functions are in the left-brain and the P-type functions in the right brain. Likewise, the extraverted functions are in the front of the brain, while the introverted functions are in the back of the brain. The order of the cognitive functions are then determined not by an archetypal hierarchy (as supposed by Beebe) but by an innate brain lateralization preference.

The Four Temperaments

• Artisans are observant and pragmatic. Composers, Crafters, Performers, and Promoters are the role variants contained within this temperament. Their greatest strength is tactical variation. Their most developed intelligence operations is either expediting or improvising.
• Guardians are observant and cooperative. Protectors, Inspectors, Supervisors, and Providers are the role variants contained within this category. Guardians seek membership or belonging and are concerned with responsibility and duty. Their greatest strength is logistical intelligence. They excel at organizing, facilitating, checking, and supporting.
• Idealists are introspective and cooperative. Healers, Counselors, Champions and Teachers are the role variants contained within this category. Idealists seek meaning and significance and are concerned with finding their own unique identity. Their greatest strength is diplomatic intelligence. They excel at clarifying, unifying, individualizing, and inspiring.
• Rationals are introspective and pragmatic. Architects, Masterminds, Inventors and Fieldmarshals are the role variants contained within this category. Rationals seek mastery, and self-control and are concerned with their own knowledge and competence. Their greatest strength is strategic intelligence. They excel in any kind of logical investigation such as engineering, conceptualizing, theorizing, and coordinating.

The Eight Roles

• Operators are observant, pragmatic, and directive. Crafters and Promoters are the two role variants of the directive Artisans.
• Entertainers are observant, pragmatic and informative. Composers and Performers are the two role variants of the informative Artisans.
• Administrators are observant, cooperative, and directive. Inspectors and Supervisors are the two role variants of the directive Guardians.
• Conservators are observant, cooperative, and informative. Protectors and Providers are the two role variants of the informative Guardians.
• Mentors are introspective, cooperative, and directive. Counselors and Teachers are the two role variants of the directive Idealists.
• Advocates are introspective, cooperative and informative. Healers and Champions are the two role variants of the informative Idealists.
• Coordinators are introspective, pragmatic and directive. Masterminds and Fieldmarshals are the two role variants of the directive Rationals.
• Engineers are introspective, pragmatic and informative. Architects and Inventors are the two role variants of the informative Rationals.

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

This is fascinating. What a wealth of info! Thanks.

I really think I was an ISTJ back then. In a sense, I was a totally different person. I was a fundamentalist Christian, stay at home mom with pre school children, still very shy and introverted (which is my natural mode of being that I have deliberately unlearned after almost 30 years of practising being outgoing and caring towards people), very judgmental in a lot of ways, a child of two teachers so with that teacherliness drilled in…. etc

My way of thinking, lifestyle and so many other things have completely changed over the past 15-20 years, especially the last 10 as I have been in a new nurturing church community and developing my career and international association.

So in a way I should not be surprised I am a new type.

Me and Oprah LOL!

Love,

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

One of the main reasons I love typology is because there is a wealth of info.  I hope people aren't turned off by feeling overwhelmed with the info I posted.  I have a tendency of providing too much info because that is what I like.  From my perspective, there is no such thing as too much info.

The reason I posted all of that is because Beebe and Thomson are the theorists that have been helpful to some people I've known.  Of course, it takes a fair amount of studying before its helpful.  Typology can be complex.  But once you connect the abstract ideas to your personal experience, it becomes a lot more meaningful.  Even though the whole type descriptions such as you posted are the clearest information, they aren't the best info for someone who is uncertain about their type.

Blessings,
Marmalade

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

I would really love to hear from others (especially my mods, hint hint! lol) in terms of what personality type you are and how you feel about these types.

I find it all very helpful. I noticed that my own type ENFJ said

In Charge (Choleric)Envisioner Mentor (ENFJ) which is very much who I am. In charge? Let's see - single mother of 3, cultivator of this pod, President of IAKF,  in charge of my learning centre of 250ish students, former church board chair - yeah! I'll say! Mentor? Very much so. Choleric> yah!

Love,

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Well since my personality refuses to spend $5 on an online test I found a free one! 

It tells me I'm a INFJ

Counselors have an exceptionally strong desire to contribute to the welfare of others, and find great personal fulfillment interacting with people, nurturing their personal development, guiding them to realize their human potential. Although they are happy working at jobs (such as writing) that require solitude and close attention, Counselors do quite well with individuals or groups of people, provided that the personal interactions are not superficial, and that they find some quiet, private time every now and then to recharge their batteries. Counselors are both kind and positive in their handling of others; they are great listeners and seem naturally interested in helping people with their personal problems. Not usually visible leaders, Counselors prefer to work intensely with those close to them, especially on a one-to-one basis, quietly exerting their influence behind the scenes.

At this time in my life I'd say that is more of who I'd want to be then who I feel I am now.  I just went to my daughters 8th grade graduation and was inspired by my daughters teacher.  That night I told my wife, “Screw this construction job, I want to go back to school and be a teacher.”
The last line completely nailed me, I'd love to be Joshua Apple Seed; quietly planting seeds in kids.

Counselors are scarce, little more than one percent of the population, and can be hard to get to know, since they tend not to share their innermost thoughts or their powerful emotional reactions except with their loved ones. They are highly private people, with an unusually rich, complicated inner life. Friends or colleagues who have known them for years may find sides emerging which come as a surprise. Not that Counselors are flighty or scattered; they value their integrity a great deal, but they have mysterious, intricately woven personalities which sometimes puzzle even them.

Yeah, I guess that fits me pretty well.  Other then this site I pretty much hide from the world.  Often at work people call me Jason.  I never correct them.  When a co-worker finds out I do weddings or may stumble across a blog or poem of mine they can't believe it's the same guy.
And yes, I often puzzle myself.

Blessed with vivid imaginations, Counselors are often seen as the most poetical of all the types, and in fact they use a lot of poetic imagery in their everyday language. Their great talent for language-both written and spoken-is usually directed toward communicating with people in a personalized way. Counselors are highly intuitive and can recognize another's emotions or intentions - good or evil - even before that person is aware of them. Counselors themselves can seldom tell how they came to read others' feelings so keenly. This extreme sensitivity to others could very well be the basis of the Counselor's remarkable ability to experience a whole array of psychic phenomena.

Blessed with vivid imaginations!  I can hear my mom laughing now. “Oh that's just our Josh, he has such an imagination.” I never really have thought of myself as intuitive.  I just get stomach aches around bad situations and have to leave a room or party if the people are negative. I always thought it was just low self esteem.   I wish I was more psychic, that would be cool!

Mohandas Gandhi, Sidney Poitier, Eleanor Roosevelt, Jane Goodall, Emily Bronte, Sir Alec Guiness, Carl Jung, Mary Baker Eddy, Queen Noor are examples of the Counselor Idealist (INFJ).

I feel pretty darn proud to be in such good company.  Gandhi is my all time hero and imaginary friend who talks to me while sitting in traffic. 

All in all I have no idea what any of this means but found it pretty darn interesting!

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

It will be really interesting to see how many more of our mods are NFs!  Mike? other Joshua? Julie? Sean? Christopher? J? Dave?

Well, none of this surprises me, Joshua! I am intrigued by this totally as well as finding out more about you. Thanks so much for sharing. You have said a number of times how frustrated you are about your job and this helps us all see why. Not a good fit for your personality type at all.

Yeah, I guess that fits me pretty well.  Other then this site I pretty much hide from the world.  Often at work people call me Jason.  I never correct them.  When a co-worker finds out I do weddings or may stumble across a blog or poem of mine they can't believe it's the same guy.
And yes, I often puzzle myself.

Hidden treasure…

Blessed with vivid imaginations!  I can hear my mom laughing now. “Oh that's just our Josh, he has such an imagination.” I never really have thought of myself as intuitive.  I just get stomach aches around bad situations and have to leave a room or party if the people are negative. I always thought it was just low self esteem.   I wish I was more psychic, that would be cool!

So, you are sensitive to others. That is fascinating. My former priest was sort of human litmus paper. Used to go into a room where others were sitting and suddenly feel like committing suicide. Finally realised he could intensely feel the emotions of others and over the years learned to distinguish between their feelings and his so he could help better.

Mohandas Gandhi, Sidney Poitier, Eleanor Roosevelt, Jane Goodall, Emily Bronte, Sir Alec Guiness, Carl Jung, Mary Baker Eddy, Queen Noor are examples of the Counselor Idealist (INFJ).

I feel pretty darn proud to be in such good company.  Gandhi is my all time hero and imaginary friend who talks to me while sitting in traffic. 

All in all I have no idea what any of this means but found it pretty darn interesting!

Gandhi was awesome yes! Well, let it sit within you, and I think the answers will come

Besos,

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Hello Joshua

I'm an INFP, but I know the INFJ type pretty well.  On type boards, I'm often attracted to INFJs for some reason.  There are lots of INFJs on MBTI Central and INFP Global Chatter.  There are some very in-depth discussions about the INFJ type on the latter (here and here).  And there is an INFJ sub-forum there. 

There are some INFJ online discussion groups…

http://infj.tribe.net/

http://infj.group.stumbleupon.com/forum/3482/

http://infj.yuku.com/binfj

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/infjopen/messages

http://groups.yahoo.com/search?query=INFJ

http://www.infj.org/archive/infj-list.html

And lots of good info on the web about INFJs:

http://www.infjorinfp.com/

http://www.infj.com/

http://www.infj.org/


Blessings,
Marmalade

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

I am also an INFJ..so, yes, you are in good company :)

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

fascinating, elizabeth, how many NFs we have here!

hugs,

nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

NFs Unite! 

At Globalchatter, we INFPs would occasionally talk about taking over the world, but it never seemed to go anywhere.  Maybe our problem was that we didn't have enough practical INFJs like Nicole.  A slave race of SJs could also help, but unfortunately its more likely that the SJs would enslave us… at the command of mastermind ENTJs.  Apparently, INFPs are only good for inspirational blathering and fluffy good intentions.

Oh well!  We can't all be good at everything.

Blessings,
Marmalade

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

ROTFLOL! You slay me… helpless giggles

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Hi Marmalade,

this is a very good summary.

I have done this job for myself when I was searching about the MBTI (and also the Enneagram).

You give us the most important references (people, arrays, links…) that one can find on the Internet or in books.

The book of Lenore Thomson is very interesting (and ckear) in her description of the Jungian functions (for example, Extraverted Thinking).

Best regards.

Serge

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Serge,

I should be able to provide a good summary as I've spent many hours scouring the web for info.  When something piques my curiosity, I can become obsessive.  In the case of typology, I left no stone unturned.

Lenore Thomson is one of my favorite typology writers.  Her view is very unique.  I favor her descriptions of the functions.  What she says about Ni interests me quite a bit.  I spent much time on Global Chatter discussing with INFJs about what are the specific differences between Ni and Ne, and Thomson was referenced quite often.

Blessings,
Marmalade

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Hi and thanks for the helping through acronymsville. I appreciate Jung esp. archetypes. The fervor that we adopt when we need to contrast ourselves from the “other” I find very interesting. As I scan the threads I get a notion that one can find fit, where one tries. The more an individual thirsts for neural connectivity, the more quenching becomes the drink. I believe we constantly undergo personality changes. These are experiences,  whether, sensoral or psychological that equal knowledge. New knowledge, esp. about ourselves, is of particular interest to ourselves. Is personality a chemical brain bath in a particular fashion that makes us who we are? Perhaps it is a mere flashing of electrical flesh released in an immutable order which leads to our soul. The point of this reply is to say that ,we are who we are, when we are. We as spiritual selves change. These changes are at times 180 degrees, but we don't despair at these changes, and we don't seek to over analyze or form fit ourselves into it, we just become.Any how “change is good donkey”. Thanks for listening.

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Alexander,

Yep… we change.  But we change even as we stay the same.  Neither change nor stability are more true than the other.  Even change happens in stable patterns which is what development means.  If you're interested in what research says, there is a lot of it out there.  Of course, the issue of stability vs change is still being debated because it involves many aspects.  Some aspects of personality are more prone to change than others. 

180 degree changes are possible, but I'd imagine they're extremely rare.  I'd also suspect that major changes aren't usually permanent.  Many people have potentially transformative experiences, but why are so few people permanently transformed?  Why does the personality usually seek to return to a baseline?  Is there a way to encourage change and to stabilize the changes that occur… create a new baseline?  Can change be embraced as an absolute… giving up stability altogether?

On another note, why do we balk at anything that challenges or limits our notion of freewill?  Freewill is such an odd thing.  We can't prove it exists and yet we need to believe in it.  We feel its true and yet we can't quite grasp its essence when we think about it.  Our society idealizes freewill which relates to our ideal of the individual.  What is it we want to be free from?  What do we want to be free towards?  Can we be free of our own personalities?  If so, what is left of us?  Is there an essential truth to each of us as individuals?  Or is individuality itself false?  if so, how can I be free if there is no 'I' that is free?

Anyways, here is something from the wiki article about the research on personality traits:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits#Development

During young adulthood, a person's ratings on the five factors may change, with average levels of Agreeableness and Conscientiousness typically increasing, and with Extraversion, Neuroticism, and Openness generally decreasing. However, after age 30, researchers have found that stability, not change is the general rule. Both longitudinal data, which correlate people's test scores over time, and cross-sectional data, which compare personality levels across different age groups, show remarkable stability in adulthood.^[19] This is not to say that personality as measured on the Big Five cannot change, given life altering circumstances or efforts to do so. It does indicate, however, that after age 30, people generally do not change their personalities very much.


Blessings,
Marmalade

Re: personality change, or not

hello Marmalade and thankyou for your response. I am a bit familiar with these notions and one should not ever shy away from knowledge and I will read up. A few points regarding personality change. The 180 degree change that I was referring to was that of reborn Christians. They would attest or even profess to this premise. With respect to transformational change I think if it is indeed transformational then by reason the baseline is altered. I think the point is are we even capable of noticing the change to our own personality or are we destined to be defined by others assessments such as “have they ever changed” and so forth. Freewill or free choice is an enigma. I don't buy into free anything since there are no value free discourses perhaps every with inner language. Like the kids now are all saying “peace out” and thanks for the topic.

Re: personality change, or not

no free anything… you're right, nothing is totally free, so it's an enigma - what is freedom? Bobbie Macgee said “Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose/Nothing ain't worth nothing but it's free…”

Love,

Nicole

Re: personality change, or not

Howdy Alexander,

“The 180 degree change that I was referring to was that of reborn Christians. They would attest or even profess to this premise.”

I'm indirectly familiar with born again Christians.  Yes, they would attest to transformational change… just as people from other religions would also attest.  But the born agains are unique in their style of professing what they attest.

“With respect to transformational change I think if it is indeed transformational then by reason the baseline is altered.”

Now, there is the meat of the issue.  I did a web search on any scientific studies that have been done on this.  I know research has been done on the changes that occur with meditaion, but I couldn't find any research about Christian salvation.  I'm sure it must exist and I'd love to see it.  For the time being, I'll limit myself to second-hand knowledge. 

My mom grew up in a church that idealized being saved.  She observed many people being saved and I think she may have professed being saved when she was younger.  She recalls that people would have dramatic changes after being saved, but slowly would return back to their old selves.  I'll have to ask her if she ever knew anyone who had permanent changes through salvation.  My best friend had a coach who was saved and spoke strongly about his experience.  This guy was saved for years and then something happened, and he went the complete opposite direction seemingly embracing a sinning lifestyle.  I don't know if this guy was ever saved again, but my mom said it wasn't unusual for people professing to be saved repeatedly.

I'm sure some Christians are saved permanently.  No doubt, that is what theology tells us should happen.  But the experience of being saved is a complex matter.  Personally, I believe that transformation can occur.  Nonetheless, I think its rare and difficult.  Also, contrary to born again theology, I suspect lasting changes tend to happen slowly.  Change needs to be integrated in order for it to be stabilized to a new baseline. 

More specific to this thread, I'm not sure that a spiritual transformation would necessarily change one's personality.  But it might.  There has to be some interesting research about this out there somewhere.

“I think the point is are we even capable of noticing the change to our own personality or are we destined to be defined by others assessments such as “have they ever changed” and so forth.”

Obviously, self-awareness is limited.  But it can be developed and even transformed.  Certainly, the development and transformation of self-awareness is a major component of meditative practices.  With major changes, I think its more that awareness changes than personality that changes.  I'd say that its more likely that we just become more aware of who we are, and thus we gain insight.  However, once we become more aware, the opportunity to become something different becomes a greater possibility.

BTW that is an interesting dream you had.  But like Nicole I haven't any clue of what to make of it.

Blessings,
Marmalade

Re: personality change, or not

Dear Marm and alexander,

I would like to speak more to this point of being saved. I have seen many people whose lives were turned around irrevocably. Like night and day. Human transformation can be breathtaking.

For me it has been a much more gradual process. I was saved, as I was taught to regard it, at the age of 10. Over the past 33 years I have been through many many changes - teenage years, young married life in a fundamentalist church, and for the past ten years divorced with three children now almost grown (except my 11 year old).

I have gone from an extremely and painfully shy child to an adult so outgoing that most people don't believe I ever was afraid of people. From being very rigid in my thinking to very open and inviting. Etc etc.

Ch ch ch ch changes… remember that old Bowie song?

Love and light,

Nicole

Re: personality change, or not

Hey Marmalade, thanks for the discussion. I consider your info, of the primary type. In my experience I have met a few devoutly transformed individuals, one professed being saved 60 years ago the other one who I certainly consider the epitamy of Christians, who happens to be a professed reborn.I myself was ritualized Catholic. I have been cleansed by smoke, been coached to read the Vedas( I think thats correct, and apologise to any who my ignorance offends), burn incense, and been bible studied one on one with my 60 year plus friend. Do I consider myself transformed, if so maybe someone will inform me.I would say that the dream I had was about as religious as can be but what is a bit of a mystery is why I would experience it. What do you think would cause one and not another to aknowledge such an event or like events. thanks

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

welcome, alexander! it is indeed interesting, and yes, neural connectivity, and constant personality changes.

Love,

nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Thanks for the love. I have had experiences that lead me to believe that it is not totaly neural connections. I have experienced an archetypal moment that has lasted a lifetime so far. This was neither freewill or phisiology but I'm positive that some of you have done the same and maybe undefinable at any rate. Am really excited at a response thanks  and right back at you.

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

would you like to say more about that experience? sounds intriguing…

Love,

Nicole

Re: MBTI:Archetypal experience

Sure. About 15 years ago I was into studying symbol for a course. The study was regarding ritual and symbol. I had been wrangling over the approach to a paper and had fallen asleep. Now hold on there I am aware of dreams and pre dream states and that is yet another topic worth discussing. Anyhow I am in a state where I  am aware of myself standing in a robe atop the planet with my arms down  palms held out . I look somewhat in the likeness of pictures of  God I look down at my feet just to see them begin to root and spread amongst the furrowing earth. Then the phone rang. I take in memory as a bundle of environment and this bundle has never been a chore to carry with me. Id'd like your feelings on this Nicole

Re: MBTI:Archetypal experience

this is a really deep and powerful dream… i don't feel qualified to know what it means. what does it mean for you though?

Love,

Nicole

Re: MBTI:Archetypal experience

Hi Nicole thankyou for your reply and interest. First I have to mention that I had a reply in another group, The Shadow, and have to say it was a real upper to read, the contact was with 1Vector 3. I will post the dream in a group that I found with the group link dreams for more. Now what does this mean to me ? I experienced the God within and this was an archetype that had been formulated as culturally specific and ontologicaly fixed. This extraordinary positioning, and as I indicated earlier I’m sure others here have been there and “touched the face of God” allowed me to memorize a mandella that was as ” a public symbol that became a private symbol” [Firth], It is the memory born of symbol that repeats itself in all of it’s splendour at will for me. I am not a deeply religous person however I see myself as a life long learner with some vision and insight. If I was to be gifted from the Holy Spirit I would want it to be that of discernment,. I suppose the nit picker part of my personality So for me the vision was a sign that I was a part of the planet and the Godhead and that while I was Me I was He and it, and we were tilliing and rooting the furrows. It was awful in the truest sense ot the word. Ihave been privy to some of life’s embroidered edges. thanks again and when I figure out again to give out seeds I’ll be sure to bestow some your way . bye for now.

Re: MBTI:Archetypal experience

awe-full, indeed! thanks for sharing,

Love,

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Here are some free online tests:

Here is the first test that was developed before the MBTI.
http://www.winerfoundation.org/gwtest/gwtest.html

This is a good basic test.
http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes1.htm

This one is designed to measure the function-attitudes separately.
http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/assessment/survey.html

This one determines both your actual and idealized type.
http://similarminds.com/pref_jung.html

A nice site with tests and the ability to make a badge.
http://www.mypersonality.info/

Blessings,
Marmalade

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

That is so helpful! Thanks a million. Now we can sit back and wait for all our active members to share with us how they tested :)


Love,

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

You are:

• distinctively expressed introvert
  
• distinctively expressed intuitive personality
  
• slightly expressed feeling personality
  
• slightly expressed judging personality

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

This is so interesting, Mike! Marmalade was guessing that we were mostly NFs here, and so far, we all are! I checked with DPI and he is an INFP as well.

Love,

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

I'm an INFJ as well, with strengths of 22,50,12, and 67.  The types with lower strengths indicate some fluidity, for example my “F” type with a strength of 12 slips into “T” territory when I'm playing in the engineering sandbox.

Here's another fun one to play with, if you want a more detailed look into what makes you tick:

http://www.personal.psu.edu/j5j/IPIP/

Dave ME

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

This is so intriguing… Now the challenge is out there for someone to post here who is not NF! LOL! Or is this an NF only group?

Light!

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

IN (F or T) P depending on which test.

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Cool, J! :)

Still waiting for a definitive NT or SJ or something

Love,

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

LOL.  You know all too well who may very well be an NT type.

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

I do! But are you? Did you take the test?

Love,

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

At one point I was a certified administrator of the MBTI Instrument.  This, along with certifications in Lean Six Sigma and a plethora of instruments, tools, theories, et al came along in the package of a graduate degree.

Quite frankly, due to experience with all of them, I am a bit jaded to the application of any in an individualized fashion.  To me - all are just specialized tools available and have their applications for certain circumstances.

That being stated, I think it very important to highlight what I consider “ethical” uses of Type Indicators (source is from the Association of Psychological Type):

1)  A qualified administrator of MBTI must provide a feedback session to provide accurate interpretation of the instrument (one of the reasons I shy from recommending on-line versions);

2)  The individual taking the instrument is truly the expert - only he/she can verify which type best fits;

3)  Type should never be a form of “pigeon-holing” since individual types are complex and dynamic (not only can they change - they can change throughout even the course of a day);

4)  Type theory should NEVER be oversimplified or misused;

5)  Type theory has no implications for competence or performance (especially related to a career);

6)  Preference scores are an indication of how consistently a person answered the questions, not of competence or ability;

7) every type is valuable

In 2000, I took the test (the actual test) and my indicator was ENTP.

This past March, I took the test (the actual test) and the results were as follows:

PREFERENCE                                    SCORE                             DEGREE OF CLARITY

E                                                                21                                     VERY CLEAR
N                                                                24                                    CLEAR
T                                                                23                                     VERY CLEAR
J                                                                15                                     MODERATE

That would make me currently a preference of ENTJ, which the instrument defines as:

“Frank, decisive, assume leadership readily.  Quickly see illogical and inefficent procedures and policies, develop and implement comprehensive systems to solve organizational problems.  Enjoy long-term planning and goal setting.  Usually well informed, well read, enjoy expanding their knowledge and pasing it on to others.  Forceful in presenting their ideas.” 

I think that J and P are quite interchangeable with my personality.  When I first took the instrument, I was rather suprised to find that I was an E as opposed to an I, for I tend to enjoy getting off alone and at times work alone and often feel invaded by others' time.  However, upon closer examination where I spend most of my time - an E is a sufficient and fairly accurate assessment.

It gets to a theory of MBTI and Jungian theory that I harbor.  Like a in integral theory's Tier II individual ability to apply and be in previous levels/tiers as required, I think a fairly experienced individual can easily and readily apply any of the preferences as required with little effort, and becomes so adept in doing this that they may not even notice the change.

.

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Jeepdog,

My dad also tested as an ENTJ.  Likewise, he was surprised that he was an E and not an I.  And he has similar types of reservations as you.

BTW I learned much from my dad's thinking style.  I'm most clearly an INFP, but I'm a bit more systematically intellectual than most INFPs I've met online.

Blessings,
Marmalade

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

That's really interesting about you and your dad, Marmalade. I remember at one point being surprised at being an E because I started off in life so strongly introverted…

Still haven't heard from all the mods and other active people on what your type is! Come in guys the water is fine :)

Love,

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Hi,

I am an INTJ, a Rational.

As Marmalade wrote,

• my primary function is Introverted Intuition ;
• my auxiliary function is Extraverted Thinking ;
• my third function is Introverted Feeling ;
• my inferior function is Extraverted Sensing.

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Hi,

I am also a type 5 (wing 4 and wing 6) in the Enneagram, the Observer.

Now I am developping my inferior function of MBTI (Extraverted Sensing). For people, it is generally around the 40's. For me, it takes a little more (I' am 51 years old)

Best regards.

Serge

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

I N F P

Intuitive Needing Fun Podplay

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Christopher and Serge, that is wonderful that we have two NTs at least! :)

Julie, fellow NF, love your playfulness in reinterpreting what the letters stand for! LOL

Love and light,

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Indeed.  A little levity here -

the last time I took the “official” instrument in March, I mentioned to somone in the family I was re-taking it. 

The response was “well, tell them to save their money on the test, since you probably are still a J-E-R-K.”

LOL.  That probably came from an NF preference family member…

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

:) hmmm a little hostility there Christopher? Families!

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

It blows me away how many people have responded with INF P or J!  I am an INFP and one of the common things that is said about INFPs is that although they love conversing with other people and they can connect with people form all walks of life they often are left wondering “why doesn't anyone GET me?”.  I have felt that my whole life until I met an amazing and wonderful ENFP (she comes up with E on tests even though she is really an I because she draws her energy from inside) and finaly I felt I had found someone who understood where I was coming from!  The same thing happened when I found this community…and this thread has only confirmed what I believed before which is that it is truly a group of like-minded individuals who I completely understand who understand where I am coming from as well.  It is such a beautiful thing to find kindred spirits especially when they are as rare as INFP/Js!  So thank you all! 
On a side note…although I conform to alot of the norms of an INFP I differ in a quite a few ways.  So although I agree it is a good tool to undertand a bit more about your potential strengths and weaknesses, I do think it should be taken with a grain of salt.  We are all individuals and any attempt to categorise us into groups will always fall well short of the mark. 
One of the things I have learned about through MBTI is that INFP's have a tendency to judge everything by whether it is acceptable according to our high idealistic standards and anything that doesn't conform is instantly rejected.  It is almost like we feel that if it doesn't conform to what we see as desirable we reject it because it challenges our value systems and as such we miss out on possible growth experiences.  We shouldn't see these things as threats that deny our very existence, but rather as other ways of being that are completely valid ways of being for other people.  We are also incredibly sensitive and take things to heart.  This is something I am still learning to deal with.  My previous method was to block everything off but that only serves to block of the happiness as well so I am slowly making myself more vulnerable, which increases the pain and joy but I am no longer as reactive to the pain so I am increasingly being left with the joy! 

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Cam, your joy and energy are infectious! Light!

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Well, the “rare” comment got me to look a couple of things up.

At least you find kindred spirits in your preference.  Mine are probably off in a debate hall hollering at people or something.  Think I'll work on changing back to ENTP as opposed to J - I like the sound of “visionary” a bit more than “executive.”

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Yeah! big improvement, Christopher :)

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

LOL Joshua!

Ok, now I'm wondering, are we all intuitives here?  Only NFs and NTs so far!

Let's hear it from you sensing types! :)

Love,

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Another NT:

Re: The concept of time; applied Evocati said 6 minutes ago: Nicole; Well, now I've looking around the links - a little confusing .. But I managed to get the following result. You were close, but no cigar, I'm an INTP. Which is cool i think :) Anyhow .. Why'd you ask?

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Does this mean that something is right with us, or something is wrong with us?

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Types are never about good or bad, right or wrong, just differences.

I will let Marmalade explain his theory on why a group like this is mostly NFs and NTs since he is much more knowledgeable about MBTI than I.

Unless Christopher or someone else wants to hazard a theory?

I’m still hoping to collect more data

Love

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Yeah, if you visit type boards or look at type threads in non-type boards, you'll see a definite pattern.  Simply, there are more Introverts and Intuitives on the net.  The reasons are pretty straightforward.  Introverts can socialize on the net without it draining them and without having to leave their personal space.  Intuitives tend to enjoy the type of discussions that happen in most online groups.  By its nature, discussions such as this are more abstract.  You can't see the people you are talking to nor their body language.  You have only words.  Also, some boards tend to be more Perceiving(most type boards are), and some boards tend to be Judging(atheist/agnostic boards are).

Quite possibly, the ESTJ might be the least common type on discussion boards.  I've only ever come across one person on a type board who claimed to be an ESTJ.

Blessings,
Marmalade

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Thanks, that really makes it clear!

Love,

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Oh Marmalade I just about got the shivers reading what you just wrote:  Introverts can socialize on the net without it draining them and without having to leave their personal space.

Champions are introspective, cooperative, informative, and expressive. Champions have a strong desire to make their thoughts known to the world. When Champions speak or write, they are often hoping to use their convictions to motivate others to participate in advocacy or they hope to reveal a hidden truth about the human experience. Champions are greatly concerned with ethics and justice and have a strong desire to speak about current issues and events. They are the most inspiring and animated of the role variants.

Champions are very individualistic and they feel a need to experience significant social events. Champions consider intense emotional experiences to be vital to life and view the world as a drama. They are constantly seeking to learn about everything that has to do with advancement of good and the retreat of evil in the world.

Champions are keen observers of the people around them. They have exceptional intuitive abilities and are capable of intensely concentrating on a particular individual. Champions are often able to read hidden emotions and to place significance on the actions of others. Champions are constantly scanning their social environment and intriguing characters are not likely to escape their attention. Their attention is usually active rather than passive. Champions are sensitive and alert to what is possible.

Champions are warm, energetic, spontaneous, positive, exuberant and dramatic. Other individuals usually find these personality qualities to be attractive and often want to be in the company of Champions. Champions usually have good people skills and get along well with their colleagues.

Champions are slow to excitement but quick to become enthusiastic; especially in regards to social or humanitarian causes. Many champions project their intuitive and perceptive abilities out into the world and are constantly wondering about future possibilities that can improve themselves, others, or situations. This can get champions into trouble if they do not express this to others correctly; or if others or groups take suggestions from champions as criticism or as the champion telling them what to do, instead of viewing it as the offering of an idea. This can confuse champions who have not yet realized that some people do not like change, or that some people can perceive this offering of advice in regards to change as the identification of a defect. This is because champions who are not at odds with themselves typically like to improve upon themselves and their situations as new information becomes available.

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

warm hugs for my champion!

love you lots!

nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Centria, here is my basic thoughts on the matter, but its complex.  If you want to understand it in more detail, then go to the links at the end of this post.

Some aspects of the internet would be draining for an Extravert: sitting still and focusing on a screen for long periods of time, the limitation and slowness of written communication, etc.  At the same time, an Extravert would be drawn to the internet because they can connect with so many people and because they can so easily stay in contact with people.  But even this might be draining because an Extravert might become overwhelmed by all of the possibilities to connect especially on a place like Gaia.  The Extravert can only connect to so many people no matter how much they wish it otherwise.  Too many connections would not only be exhausting, but also dissatisfying as all of the connections can be pursued to any great extent.  And the internet becomes a distraction from all of those real world connections that mean so much to an Extravert.

I'd think that an Extravert would enjoy and be energized by the internet to the extent they can use it to connect and stay connected with people in their life.  For instance, I saw some research that said that email is used more by Extraverts than Introverts.  Nicole is an example of an Extravert who has learned to use internet in a way that satisfies her.  She has made it her mission to meet people in the real world who she has met on Gaia. (Or maybe she has learned to be an Extravert by meeting so many people… hmmm).   In general, I'd think social networking sites such as Gaia would be more satisfying for an Extravert than other online groups.

There are good reasons Introverts like interacting online.  They have an ability to focus for long periods of time without getting tired.  They prefer the slowness of the written form because it gives them an opportunity to think before communicating.  Also, its safer.  An Introvert can stay within their personal space… they can socialize while being alone so to speak.  And they can choose what to do on the internet.  If they don't feel like interacting with other humans, then they can just read what other people say without responding. 

The nicest thing for an Introvert is that they can observe without being observed.  If they do feel like interacting, they can have more control over the situation than in normal life.  They can observe for a long while before jumping in.  They can join for a while and easily leave without needing to explain.  They can make a quick comment.  Another thing is that an Introvert has many options of smaller groups of people all over the web.  Gaia probably wouldn't be the first choice for an extreme Introvert.

Here are two papers about type and the internet:

Internet Teaching By Style: Profiling the On-line Professor

Online Learners and their Learning Strategies

Here is a page about Extraverted Intuition from The Lenore Thomson Exegesis Wiki.  This page doesn't say anything about Extraverts online, but I just love the site and so felt like linking to it.

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

an example of an extrovert who uses the internet in ways that satisfy me, eh? yes, almost all the time. sometimes it crucifies me, but not the internet but my own… anyway.

maybe both Ben, became an extrovert by forcing myself to get out there and stay out there, even when i became a target for everyone's projections and became a kind of human dart board - yeah, churches can be dangerous places…

and in a way, i am trying to connect with as many people from Gaia in realtime as possible. probably i am rapidly reaching the edge of what i can take on, and after this year will need a year of no traveling at all… maybe take a vow of silence… do you think that would help?

help!

peace,

nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Yeah, take a vow of silence and sit by the river listening….

Siddhartha listened. He was now nothing but a listener, completely
concentrated on listening, completely empty, he felt, that he had now
finished learning to listen. Often before, he had heard all this, these
many voices in the river, today it sounded new. Already, he could no
longer tell the many voices apart, not the happy ones from the weeping
ones, not the ones of children from those of men, they all belonged
together, the lamentation of yearning and the laughter of the
knowledgeable one, the scream of rage and the moaning of the dying ones,
everything was one, everything was intertwined and connected, entangled
a thousand times. And everything together, all voices, all goals, all
yearning, all suffering, all pleasure, all that was good and evil, all
of this together was the world. All of it together was the flow of
events, was the music of life. And when Siddhartha was listening
attentively to this river, this song of a thousand voices, when he
neither listened to the suffering nor the laughter, when he did not tie
his soul to any particular voice and submerged his self into it, but
when he heard them all, perceived the whole, the oneness, then the great
song of the thousand voices consisted of a single word, which was Om:
the perfection.

Hermann Hesse
Siddhartha
Chapter 11

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

thanks, sweet Ben, crying again, but good tears now. You are a true friend. Yes. That was just what I needed to read.

This makes me think of Rilke (surprise, surprise :) ) and the First Elegy - I excerpt the beginning and highlight the special lines but this whole section always resonates for me and again not surprisingly especially today.

The First Elegy

Who, if I cried out, would hear me among the angels' hierarchies?

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Ben,  Thanks again for researching all of this an explaining it so succinctly.  The entire discussion has opened my eyes to some of the benefits of typology. 

It feels like I'm an extrovert who has been learning about introversion most of my life.  I have learned to sit still for long periods of time in meditation….to be without many people (well, to be honest, only for a month's retreat in January, but that was a long time)…to not be as outward-oriented as part of this soul desired. 

Interesting what you said about introverts being able to focus for long periods of time without getting tired.  I tire very easily.  Am not hesitant about revealing anything…..although at age 13 was so shy it was impossible to barely speak to another person in junior high.  Would have definitely been an introvert then. 

I love the way you seem to put your energy so fully into your words:  slowly, methodically….instead of quickly, riding the flow of the energy.

All of the different types have so much to teach each other.  We can balance each other, as long as we're not judging and dismissing a quality that might not be dominant.  Seems like the world would be a better place if we but learned that lesson.  (I don't mean you personally….rather the larger world.)  

Kathy

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Kathy,
“Thanks again for researching all of this an explaining it so succinctly.”

You're welcome.

“The entire discussion has opened my eyes to some of the benefits of typology.

I'm glad you responded that way.  I just like to present info and my only hope is that someone will find it helpful or interesting.

“although at age 13 was so shy it was impossible to barely speak to another person in junior high.  Would have definitely been an introvert then.”

Just wanted to make a quick comment about this.  I've never looked into research about how they may be correlated, but in typology Introversion and shyness are two separate factors.  Partly, this has to do with the distinction between functions/attitudes and traits.  So, accordingly, an Extravert can be shy.

Also, in typology, its spelled Extravert with an 'a'.  This is to differentiate it from other theories.

Okay, the school lesson is over.  :)

“I love the way you seem to put your energy so fully into your words:  slowly, methodically….instead of quickly, riding the flow of the energy.”

Yeah, it does seem to be the way I write.  My mind is fairly quick, but I tend to be very methodical in my writing especially when writing about ideas.  I usually do internet searches as a way to gather my thoughts.  One reason I've gotten in the habit of being methodical is because my memory is far from perfect.  I remember ideas, but I don't remember specifics well.  So, I'm always double-checking myself before posting. 

In the example of my above post, I spent maybe an hour researching Introversion just to see how well my own views accorded with the research.  It helped me to clarify my own thinking and I learned some more about the subject… which I then was able to share.  Doing the research didn't change my mind exactly.  I could've written most what I presented without having done that research, but I just enjoy looking up info.  This can be a problem though as I can spend so much time on a single post.

“All of the different types have so much to teach each other.  We can balance each other, as long as we're not judging and dismissing a quality that might not be dominant.  Seems like the world would be a better place if we but learned that lesson.”

That is my view on things.

Blessings,
Marmalade

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Big hugs to you both!

Love you so much,

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Hugs all around, Nicole….

Ben-Marmalade, interesting, especially that shyness and introversion are not the same….  That you can have a extravert (notice the correct spelling?) who is shy.  Who would have thought?  But that makes sense.

OK you folks there's at least 11 things that I need to respond to around here right now.  Feeling very mellow today, and not at all exclamatory.  Guess this is a good grounded sign. 

Blessings to all,  Kathy

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Wonderful! Yes, we are all learning so much… maybe even Marmalade, though he seems to know so much already? :)

Love,

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Wow!  There sure are a lot of N's in this pod.  I just might be the only S around here (although I'm probably not).

I'm an ISFJ.

I think that's a pretty accurate description of my personality.  Many think I'm extroverted because I appear to be friendly and outgoing when I'm around people.  But the truth is, while I love people, I get drained by people and draw most of my energy from solitary activities (which is really what is meant by introverted).

Sometimes I think I'm in the wrong career (clergy) because I would prefer to spend most of my time alone, and there are people to see.  I get to feeling guilty when there are days when I don't see anybody and the guilt drains me.  The guilt probably comes from perceived expectations of congregants, and I sometimes worry that there are some who would consider me a slacker.  But I'm not a slacker at all.  I'm taking in information almost constantly and trying to distill it (in the form of sermons and studies) the best I can so that it makes sense to the average person.  I've thought about running an information hub on the internet, pointing people to different resources that will be helpful to them.

Gary Smalley has a personality test that uses 4 animals to tell your type:
Lion (Take charge!)
Beaver (Busy, busy, busy!)
Golden Retriever (Friendly and loyal)
Otter (Rules?  What rules?  Nuthin' but fun, fun, fun!)

I'm definitely a Golden Retriever.

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Welcome to our discussion, Golden Retriver!

Great to have  an SF, and I'm sure you are not the only.

Sorry you find it challenging to be a minister at times… might be a good idea to drop by our guilt thread too and let us know your thoughts on that…

Love and light,

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

 Upon reading the introduction to this thread, I googled MBTI and found several tests. I took one and found that I am an ENFJ. t said Oprah is the same thing and I thought, well, the same as Oprah, that can't be bad. Then my wife took it and came up an ENFP and she was the same as Oprah. I guess oprah is an E, and N or an EN. I've heard about these type of tests before but had never taken one. This is an interesting subject. Thank you Marmalade for putting it up!

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Maybe Oprah is very balanced for P/J so sometimes is one and sometimes the other

love

nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

As long as we're having fun, and since its been brought up by Doug, why not find out if we're doing the jobs that suit us best? 

This one, the Holland Index, gives you a feel for what kind of jobs you would be good at and enjoy.  

http://www.learning%20liferesources.com/hollandcodes/Knowing_Your_Holland_Code.pdf  

Fill out the above PDF and calculate your Holland codes, then go to the link below and click on your top 2 codes, look for jobs that have your code type.   

http://career.missouri.edu/students/explore/thecareerinterestsgame.php  

For example in my case, I'm an AIS, so I clicked on the “Artistic” and “Investigative” tabs and found career choices that had those letters.  (BTW, it says I'd be happiest as a writer, which is true, but I find that when I spend too much time writing, I start missing being with people, so I need a mix…)



Have fun!

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

I am an AIS as well!  But I couldn't find a description of this type in that second link.  There was ASI but not AIS.  Writer is probably the closest possible description of my ideal job…unfortunately there is very little money in it and although I would love to the life of an asthete, I fear raising kids with no money is not a very practical situation!  So I am left doing psychology which appeals to my investigative and social side.  What is everyone else? 

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

My Holland Code is CSE– that's pretty good, seeing as I am quite conventional in my approaches to things.  The job profile says I should be a Paralegal or an Accountant.  Paralegal sounds interesting.  It's like I can be your lawyer until a real lawyer comes along!!

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Hi everyone….guess I should have read this discussion before having a tiny rant about the MBTI yesterday.  (I am feeling better about the test today…and since Feelings are so important to me, apparently…..that's a good thing!) 

Anyway, Nicole asked if I would link this blog to this discussion post, so here you have it:  http://eternalquestion.gaia.com/blog/2008/6/hello_my_name_is_kathy_and_i_am_an_enfp

It's mostly from the viewpoint of wondering which part of ourselves decides to answer the statements.  For example, even though I rated quite high on the Feeling emphasis, I have been known to be quite attached to the Thinking aspect.  As for the introvert/extrovert label, aren't many of us both in different situations? 

It's the labeling part that I question.  Whether we're labeling ourselves with tags such as age, gender, weight, politics…….so often it's just a limiting glimpse into the magnificence of what we truly are.

Just a thought.  and not one that doesn't recognize that the MBTI has many valuable aspects.
Thanks,  Kathy

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Dave - keep meaning to get to this but it's been a very hectic week. thanks though

Cam - so cool! thanks

Doug - interesting

Kathy - not to worry, it's easy to miss stuff here with 50-120 posts a day :). Thanks for linking your blog, I love your blogs and the ensuing discussions. I agree, labeling isn't helpful, and it's not the purpose of this or any other typing, rather they are meant for better self-understanding and appreciation of others, especially in close relationships. For example, if you are an ENFP and you are married to and INTJ, you can realise through the typing that a lot of the misunderstandings and stresses you experience in the relationship are a result of different ways of looking at the world and being rather than sheer cussedness on the part of the other :):)

Love,

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Update:  I retook a MBTI test online and tested as ISFP.  I think it fits me better than the ISFJ because I'm not very organized or planned– you should see my desk; it's a disaster area!!  I live in the moment and want to savor it.  Any intrusion ruins the moment.  I'm also a daydreamer.  If I have to do a task I get it done quickly so that I can go back to daydreaming.

I took the test this time as I was instructed the first time I took it, that is, I answered the questions if I was under no pressure to be anyone but myself.  I then pictured myself like that and then answered the questions accordingly.

ISFP fits me much better.

Any other ISFP's out there?

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Very comforting, Doug, hopefully there are other ISFPs out there!

Brightest blessings,

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Doug, welcome to the Introverted Feeling club.  We have to stick together with all these Extraverted Feeling types emoting all over the place.  I know you used to think you were one of them, but I'm glad you finally picked the right side to belong to.  BTW don't speak to Nicole about this.  She is sweet for an Fe type.  Its not her fault afterall.  :)

Blessings,
Marmalade

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Hey! I heard that! LOL

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Now, now… let's be nice!   :>P

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Doug, Marmalade is just in one of his moods LOL! I am well used to them even welcome them for the laughs they always give me.

Love you both!

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

I'm one of Marmalade's INFJ acquaintances from elsewhere online. This is actually my first post here. It will, I guess, serve as an opening post for now. I'll go back at a later time and do the official introduction related to spiritual background, but since I've been wading in MBTI waters for a while now, this feels the most engaging and comfortable place to enter the waters. I hope that's acceptable.

I've taken loads of online tests and generally test INFP or INFJ. I have come to believe my type is INFJ and yes, I believe the cognitive process described by the INFJ type describes my process well. The aspects that don't fit are mostly aspects that reflect more natural variations of expression that are then translated backwards to define the type. I've met INFJ's who have very argumentative and forceful personalities and that does not fit me at all, but I've also met INFJ's who are very soft and gentle and present much more as I do. I've met an INFJ who is very logical and rational where I am not, but as I got to know this INFJ, I discovered how deeply our experience of the world was resonant in terms of the need for external relational input in order to guide the inner perceptual world. I have not yet read a type description that I felt was completely accurate for me, but I find this one (http://www.geocities.com/lifexplore/infj.htm) very resonant of my experience as an INFJ.

Despite typing frequently as INFP, I believe INFJ is the best fit type for me. I do not believe I match perfectly the stereotypes of an INFJ, but I actually do believe that my processing matches the cognitive processing of an INFJ type.

I don't disagree with the concept of MBTI types, but I also don't believe it is a precise science and it is often misused prejudicially.

I have not been of the belief that we can use all functions equally, but I am of the belief that we have access to all the functions, just with more or less amicable a relationship depending on the dominance of the function.

I've read some of Jung's writings, but would not say I've studied him. I would say I've studied MBTI and am familiar with other personality theories.

I don't think there is any reliable relationship between MBTI and the Enneagram, however I think there are some noticeable correlations.

ooohhh, I'm lost on the personality/persona/psyche questions….

I accept that we have a natural disposition toward one ordering of functions and so are one type naturally, but also accept the idea that as we grow and mature our comfort with less natural functions increases and our experience of type may present differently while we still retain the same most natural functional ordering.

I think that type describes cognitive processes and so the way different people will interact may be affected by the way they process. I do not think it is as static as this type can get along with that or that type can't get along with this type at all though. There are way too many other factors that influence a persons expression in the world.

I'm running out of time,but I'll say quickly that I think my career has met my needs in many ways and so since I type as INFJ then it has fit that type for at least one person at one point in time. Can't say more than that on that topic.

I've had to learn to be many things that haven't felt natural to me over the years, but unfortunately I won't have time to really expand.

It's been nice reading the expression of you all in the few discussions I've been able to read so far. I'm looking forward to reading more and I will post a more formal introduction sometime in the very near future.

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Welcome! Any friend of ben,s is a friend of mine. You will find we have very few rules here. So this introduction is perfect. No need to do anything else unless you want to.

Love

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Tovlo,

Glad to have you stop by for a visit.  I hope you like the place.  It would be nice to hear some of your comments around here.

Since I've talked about MBTI with you so much already, I'll refrain from responding to your post.  I almost feel myself drawn into one of our old discussions about J and P.  Now, that is a can o' worms.

Blessings,
Marmalade

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Though I tend to be averse to labeling people in general and also to believe there must be more than 16 personality “types”, these are based on thorough study and observation, so I have to believe they're also fairly accurate, if not concrete.

According to an online test I took a while back, I'm an INFJ and that disappointed me a little. One of the INFJ “traits”: “Extraverted feeling, the auxiliary deciding function, expresses a range of emotion and opinions of, for and about people. INFJs, like many other FJ types, find themselves caught between the desire to express their wealth of feelings and moral conclusions about the actions and attitudes of others, and the awareness of the consequences of unbridled candor.”

That actually fits. It was disappointing at first because I've been accused of “moralizing” before, but am absolutely certain that I do not “judge” (i.e. morally condemn) people. It took a while for the auxiliary to kick in: “conclusions about the actions and attitudes of others”. Whew! Blessed relief! It seems INFJs are also adept at separating the actions and attitudes of people from who they are. (Actions and attitudes are constantly in flux and do not necessarily define who people are.) Yay! Okay. So, I don't feel so bad now.

Tying this in to the practice of mindful awareness, I believe there is such a thing a right/wrong thinking and right/wrong action, which I don't always get “right” myself and, so, don't expect others to always get right, either. I try to ignore it in others for the most part, though, unless 1) the wrong action is directed squarely at me and 2) the person is an intimate because I also deeply believe in the right of others to be autonomous in thought and action. Still, it doesn't bother me a bit to say, “What you are doing there, Mr. Politician, is wrong.” After all, it doesn't mean Mr. Politician can't make it right! Eh? :)

I find this all very fascinating because I find people fascinating. Thanks for the wealth of additional information. I'd taken the test for fun and hadn't really delved into the particulars.

On a side note: Astrologists aware of the general descriptions of the signs of the Zodiac - East and West - would probably swear up and down the signs are pretty accurate. As it happens, Wood Dragon and Aries descriptions often fit me pretty well, too, so this kind of “typing” was around long before psychology ever came into existence. Makes one wonder if there isn't something to all that “your fate is written in the stars” stuff….

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Hello lorel,

There is quite a bit of a difference between Extraverted Feeling and Inteoverted Feeling.

In response to what you said about astrology, I decided to look into the matter further as this kind of thing has been on my mind recently.  I ended up writing a long response about it, and so I put it into a blog instead.

Blessings,
Marmalade

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

hi lorel

so great to have you here and i'm glad you found it helpful in the end. it is so intereresting what you say about your disappointment and how you worked it through. i think that many people do hate labeling and being labeled and this is why they often react negativitely to this, other typing or Integral thinking, for that matter.

peace,

nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

On the other hand, there's an old aphorism: “Know thyself.”

I'm sure the scales are very useful to psychologists in helping people to better understand themselves and their motivations along with the possible root causes of any psychological valleys they may find themselves in. As one commentor has suggested, the potential for abusing the scales prejudicially seems high, but the types themselves don't appear stereotypical. As with all scales, these are not rigid classifications.

I've actually tested as both an INFP and an INFJ, which leads me to think that INFP may be a more passive temperament with INFJ an active tendency in interaction style. So, I'll take it as a reminder to stay calm when it comes time to make a judgment call and be certain I'm weighing the veracity of ideas and actions before speaking. Could actually help to prevent a lot of misunderstandings!

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

yes, indeed, that is one of its best uses, to help us better understand ourselves and each other. not to stick each other into tiny boxes.

love,

nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

And remember in education it is the teachers responsibility to LABEL some child as either Gifted or Remedial and ignore all in-between. It is a systemic dysfunction which has caused much grief for many. And they are not psychologists, think of the worst elem. teachers you had and know the control over your ultimate educational life that they potentially had.
   I do not labels that should be applied and that inclusionary tactics are best. I know this has little to do with the topic but the premise of control over education and access to other areas can be severely disabled by the likes of others (or dislikes) how biased. Thanks for the read. Can you guess what personality type I am ? Alex

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

think of the worst elem. teachers you had and know the control over your ultimate educational life that they potentially had. 

Alexander -

I choose not to think of the worst elementary school teachers; I consistently choose to think of and remember the best.

It begins with first grade.  Legally, the teacher had to pass me to the second grade.  Yet, I had a hearing disorder where the world appeared different to me.  That was rectified medically in first grade, yet I was still behind.  Despite not hearing, I was managing a “C” effort, and since I was a July baby, managing that in competition with children that were a year my senior in experience and development.  She noticed this, had a conference with my father, and mentioned that legally I should be passed - but to what end?  Why not give me more time to get the impairment behind me, and be on equal footing, she suggested, but this would have to be initiated by my parents.

Mrs. Anderson (long dead), thanks for the wisdom.

It continues with the second grade, in the same school, with a wonderful teacher who enrolled me in University learning experiments.  Whose husband, as we made frequent trips to the University, taught me chess as we waited for the interviews/research sessions.

It continues to the 3rd grade (different school than 1st and 2nd grades).  “They” thought I was dumber than a box of rocks.  I probably still am.  “They” had me in 2nd grade reading class, since I was that dumb.  One day, the school librarian, sans a degree in education, noticed during reading time I was being escorted to 2nd grade.  “Why is he being taken to second grade reading?” she inquired.  “Because that's his reading level” was the curt reply from the teacher's assistant holding my dumb little hand.  I distinctly remember the smirk on the school librarian's face as she replied “you realize, of course, he has read every book in the school library, to include the four versions of encyclopedia?  He's now working on the teacher's section of the library, and yesterday checked out Mein Kamph since that's the last book in that section….”

The next reading class was with Mr. Heck and the 6th grade's reading lesson.  Mr. Heck was nothing short of inspirational, to include re-enacting Kipling's works and taking us to far-away places such as India (complete room makeover).

Librarian whose name I don't remember - thanks for noticing.

On it goes, with inspirational stories throughout my public education, all the way through undergraduate degrees in public school systems (unfortunately, a private institution provided my graduate work, which is sad since that point I can no longer state “I'm a product of the public school system”).  Sure, there were “labels” applied throughout my educational experience - but they always served to make me stronger.  They provided something for me to overcome - a goal.

Finally, I do not see it as a “responsibility” for teachers to “label.”  Perhaps, again, it is how we choose to view the situation….

Well, this is severely off topic.  Yet, then again, is it?  Perhaps this insight of my educational environment can be correlated to my admitted ENTJ type. :)

.

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

I had similar experiences in school, but maybe didn't get quite as much help as you.  Because of being tested and labelled as having a learning disability, I received the help I need at a young age.  Of course, labelling by itself is pointless if it doesn't lead to actually helping a child.  In my case, the specialist I worked with happened to be one of the best in her field.  So, most kids aren't so lucky.  Children get labelled all of the time and unfortunately it doesn't guarantee acutally getting help. 

I've mentioned before something my mom told me.  Because of change in Federal policies, a kid who now has the same problems as I did wouldn't now get the help I did.  If I was a kid now, I would've been put in a class with a bunch of kids with low IQ and psychological issues because my mom says they now lump all “problem” kids together now instead of dealing with them as individuals.

Blessings,
Marmalade

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

labeling can be a problem indeed. what a wild ride you had, dear kit! and yet you were so resilient. alexander, i do hear you. as a teacher of sorts, running the afterschool math and english Kumon programs for about 260 students, i am very aware of the influence i have in the lives of the children and parents i see either to recognise abilities and weaknesses and encourage and guide toward developing potential or to discourage and hamper progress.

marm, you make a good point about how being identified can at times help, and rightly point out that it's not always great. these days too many kids are being labeled and i am not sure it is a boon for all.

light and peace,

nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Hi, I'm Isis and I'm an INFP:

INFPs generally have the following traits:

• Strong value systems
• Warmly interested in people
• Service-oriented, usually putting the needs of others above their own
• Loyal and devoted to people and causes
• Future-oriented
• Growth-oriented; always want to be growing in a positive direction
• Creative and inspirational
• Flexible and laid-back, unless a ruling principle is violated
• Sensitive and complex
• Dislike dealing with details and routine work
• Original and individualistic - “out of the mainstream”
• Excellent written communication skills
• Prefer to work alone, and may have problems working on teams
• Value deep and authentic relationships
• Want to be seen and appreciated for who they are

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Isis, thanks for sharing this, very interesting observations indeed.

Some say it is not the personality itself that changes but that either we were living a distortion before and grow more into our true self, or that we can learn to live a distortion.

Through the enneagram work I did recently (you can see my blog on Return to the Soul if you're interested in more details here) I have come to understand personality type as something that emerges early on as a combination of nature and nurture, that can take over as an ego strategy. If the ego sees it as being less effective than another approach, it can take on another personality type, since as part of our psyche and shadow everything is available, but the challenge is to gain the freedom from letting the ego run you, whatever the strategy it has chosen to do so.

Though peak moments give us a taste of what freedom looks like, actually living free is a lifelong work.

Light and peace,

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Hello Isis!  I read your list of INFP traits, and I thought to myself that I sure would like to be that kind of person.  That person described seems like such a nice fellow.

About transformation, I would add that I don't doubt permanent transformation overall but that I see it as most often a gradual process.  The peak moments are probably just outward signs, tipping points of that gradual process.

Nicole, I liked your take on personality that you just presented.  It is important to differentiate personality and ego.

Blessings,
Marmalade

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Ben, thanks for that affirmation. I am really excited about what I am beginning to understand in this whole area.

Hugs,

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

“Though peak moments give us a taste of what freedom looks like, actually living free is a lifelong work”

I totally agree with this!!!! It has definitely been my experience.

Peak experiences followed by clearly seeing blockages followed by intense eruptions of baggage in my face, followed by big death/letting go/surrenders followed by integration/new beginnings for a while then the whole process starts all over again. That basically describes the past 11 years of my life!!!!

I agree it's more about stripping off the layers that are limiting, externally imposed and conditioned, and revealing the authentic natural radience of self than becoming something else, more owning who we really are.

I think it is definitely a gradual process and those peak experiences have opened me to each stage of the work.

I'm really interested Nicole in what you were saying about nature vs nurture and the personality.

My true nature which is basically very humanitarian, empathetic, perceptive, sensitive, intuitive, creative, inquisitive, visionary and systems thinking - was conditioned into very reactive, defensive, violent and disturbed through a violent childhood where my distorted emotional development from a dysfunctional home environment was labelled ADHD and I was then labelled “trouble” - so I became it. The more I became it the more they tried to beat it out of me, the more they tried to beat it out of me the more I became it….


I learned it was unsafe to be myself or have my needs met, I did not deserve love or respect and my feelings were not valid.

But I still picked up wounded animals off the road and tried to make them better, shared anything I had, fiercely protected my younger brother, wrote poetry and stories, sat for hours in nature and relished natural cycles and took responsibility for my own learning even though school was a nightmare for me….

It's taken me nearly 40 years to learn not to hate myself, even though once I moved out of that environment, my true nature and compassion expressed more and more in the way I treated others and the environment and the way I chose to use my time.

However my devoted “service orientated” work choices became yet another way to try and “prove” myself, to atone for my perceived inherent unworthiness.

Through all this I was continually recognising conditioning as not aligning with my heart and letting it go, helped along by some spiritual emergencies and epiphanies…

As for the ennagram from memory I'm a 9 :)
(Just read that post about your workshop Nicole WOW!)

I'm loving this space, thank you!

Love,
Isis

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Dear Isis,

Peacemaker, eh? Thank you for sharing so deeply. Your post moves me very much, especially in this vulnerable space we share here on Gaia today in the wake of losing Kelly, Jake and Rommel from the Gaia Team

Love and light,

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Thank you Nicole for your lovely comments.,

 I just followed the link. I can guess there have been wonderful associations and friendships forged on this soulful site. I'm sure Kelly Jake and Rommel will be missed.

And Marmalade, thanks for your welcome!!! I'm sure you are uniquely wonderful in your own way!

Love
Isis

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

Hi Isis,

Happily, they remain active on Gaia, and you can be sure they are being smothered in love and hugs right now, which is a consolation.

And yes, Marmalade is very very wonderful. What a joy it is to have him participate here and elsewhere in the Gaia blogosphere :)

Love and light,

Nicole

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

I'm a unique individual like everyone else.  lol

Nicole, I was sad to hear of the loss of some of our Gaia team.  This whole Gaia community feels like its in some major transformations.  I hope everything works out for Gaiam.  I've heard that Gaia doesn't make a profit for Gaiam, but it seems like there should be a way for Gaia to be a profitable part of the business.

Blessings,
Marmalade

Re: MBTI: Jungian Personality Types

It should indeed, Ben, time will tell how it all works out. But in the short term, the Team says that things are on an even keel financially now as far as Gaia goes.

Thankfully, Jake, Rommel and Kelly continue on at Gaia as members so we haven't completely lost them.

Love,

Nicole