Jesus...man or god...

Ok im just replying to the question.. I think Jesus was a messenger sent by god to tell the Jewish people, and non believers of god, about gods message ,and to sort of “striaghten” up the Jewish people. I do not believe Jesus is god, but that we are all gods children in a way. I know that sounds kind of odd. But how could a creator be killed by his creation? Just a thought.. Have a good day everyone!

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Dear Kendra, not strange at all! Welcome, and feel free to share on any topic here.

Love and light,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

I must say I do believe that God is both fully God and fully  man…In John 1:1-4 says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.  In him was life and the life was the light of men.”  Here John refers to Christ as “the Word” and says he was “with God” and “was God.”  Also, John 20:30-31 says, “Now Jesus did many signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in the this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.”

Also, the question of how can the creation kill the creator I think is a good one.  But I think it can be answered.  No one took Jesus' life.  His creation did not forcefully kill the creator by force it was given up.  John 10:17-18 says, “For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.  No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord.  I have authority to lay it down and I have authority to take it up again.  This charge I have received from my Father.”

Re: Jesus...man or god...

indeed Chase, this is at  the core of what we believe as Christians. A great mystery, and in Paul's words about the cross, either a stumbling block or foolishness (or both) depending on who you are as someone who does not believe this message….

but it always makes me stop and wonder, those words at the beginning of John “En arche ho logos…” stunningly pure and stark.

love and light,

nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

I don't believe that Jesus was God. He was probably a good man and a preacher of his faith, but not God.
I don't think that anyone can really understand or even imagine God because he (or she) transcends anything we could grasp.
Therefore, I believe Jesus was not God because I don't believe that God can be reduced to human like that.
I do believe in a higher power, I just don't believe I could ever really know what that is.

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Thanks for sharing Tifster, it's good to have you here in the discussion,

Love,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

It is true that God is transcendant above His creation but the Bible also teaches that God is immanent or He remains in creation (which doesn't mean that he is creation, it means He is actively involved in creation.  The God of the Bible isn't an abstract deity or removed from creation at all.  The entire Bible is a narrative of God's relationship to himself (the trinity) and us (creation, fall, redemption).  Job affirmed that plants and animals depend on God; “In his hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind” (Job 12:10).  The apostle Paul affirms in Acts 17:25,2 that God, “gives to all men life and breath and everything” and that “in him we live and move and have our being.”  And one more verse which affirms God's transcendance and immanence is Ephesians 4:6, “one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.” 

Also, I feel that if you don't believe that Jesus is God, you cannot believe that Jesus was a good man.  Let me explain.  C.S. Lewis said,

“A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jeus said would not be a great moral teacher.  He would either be a lunatic–on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg–or else he would be the Devil of Hell.  You must make yhour choice.  Either this man was, and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse.  You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill HIm as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call him Lord and God.  But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher.  He has not left that open to us.  He did not intend to.”

So, the Jesus of the Bible is either a liar, Lord, or lunatic.  He cannot be anything else.  Jesus claimed that he was God (John 1:1-4, John 20:28).  A mere man claiming that he is God is both a liar and especially a lunatic. 

I also thank you all for your responses.

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Jesus was not God since this would be an objectification of that which is beyond substance and form. However, Christ Mind seems to have been the message (similar to Buddha Mind) that Jesus taught through “I and the Father are One.” Essentially, the message has been abrogated and nullified by the 'messiah-form'  which the judeo-christian religions advocate as the quintessential focus of all worship. The egoic mind requires a 'form' represent God. Problem is that focus on forms may dissociate and displace from Truth.

The Jesus of Christ Mind was a liar and a lunatic because the Truth that is realized from that correspondence is completely opposite of what the world teaches or what the senses inform us is true. This is because the message proclaims “son of God” as not the manifestation of an individual identify, but of a “sonship” of unified minds. The message that “I and the father are One,” must be all-inclusive and, therefore, no one is excluded. 

But then, I'm just saying…

Peace Angels,
mike S 

Re: Jesus...man or god...

To see Jesus as God does not limit our view. To understand the three persona's of the trinity we have to endeavor to understand the Transcendent Father, the Immanent Son, and the enacting Holy Spirit.

Many here on the board can appreciate the transcended aspect of Godhead but fail to grasp the mystery or revelation of Jesus the man. We have no problem affirming his human qualities but fail to see where he differ from all of us (which is extraordinary since his actions speak louder than claims).

I find it staggering to realize that many many people have a very difficult time assessing another human being. People find it excruciating to find that some have gone further than themselves. Why is this so hard to accept? Psychologically it must mean that, even though we most likely do recognize this difference between people, we can't bear to admit to it. Somehow we have failed to see that it doesn't hurt to recognize these differences. in fact, it actually liberates and enables you to move forward. Humility is calling a spade a spade.

Jesus was unique. He holds out a mystery that pertain to him alone. Similar but not the same as what the Buddha presents. Each one has to be understood in its own context.

Many people here on the board have had transcendent experiences, no doubt authentic ones. But that does not give us automatically insight into the whole range of meaning inherent in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.

A big mistake is to “advaita” any teaching just because the underlying nature transcend any specific creed. Once we found our ground of being we must use that as our base to fearlessly investigate the mysteries, without coloring it with our own opinions. Dare to try to understand what Jesus as the son of God means.

Once we realize the meaning we will come to see why Jesus have made such an impact on world history, and we will bow our head in recognition and in humility.

There is no need to investigate these truths if you don't want to, but then it's better to keep silent once the subject is breached. That is a much better approach then to paint a personal description of transcendent philosophy and calling it Jesus, or Christ mind and the like. No doubt, there is some truth to statements of the kind but then there is no need to use the name of the historical Jesus. Since his name pertains to him, a historical figure, and to his work. It is quite specific.

Just because we all share in the oneness of God does not mean we are the same. Liberation comes when we can live with both.

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Chase, Mike and Bjorn, thank you so much for these well thought-through perspectives.

Chase, I've always enjoyed CS Lewis, and personally found for many years his “Liar, Lunatic or Lord” argument most persuasive. Over the years, I realise more and more how limited that can be to those who are not resonant with the Christian perspective.

Mike, you said:

Jesus was not God since this would be an objectification of that which is beyond substance and form. However, Christ Mind seems to have been the message (similar to Buddha Mind) that Jesus taught through “I and the Father are One.” Essentially, the message has been abrogated and nullified by the 'messiah-form'  which the judeo-christian religions advocate as the quintessential focus of all worship. The egoic mind requires a 'form' represent God. Problem is that focus on forms may dissociate and displace from Truth.

Certainly we must be careful of that pull to limit God to what can be contained in human form, as seductive and natural as it is. But as Bjorn says, that is not what Christianity means, though perhaps as individuals we may fall into that.

Bjorn,

Many here on the board can appreciate the transcended aspect of Godhead but fail to grasp the mystery or revelation of Jesus the man. We have no problem affirming his human qualities but fail to see where he differ from all of us (which is extraordinary since his actions speak louder than claims).

To those of us who are Christians find it relatively easy to appreciate the mystery and revelation of Jesus, yet since this requires faith, it is not a purely intellectual approach, and may seem almost impossible to some.

I find it staggering to realize that many many people have a very difficult time assessing another human being. People find it excruciating to find that some have gone further than themselves. Why is this so hard to accept?

I can think of a number of possibilities why that would be the case. At the same time, it is possible that people do believe that others are more advanced spiritually than they without recognising Jesus' unique role in history, again a faith-dependent perspective.

Psychologically it must mean that, even though we most likely do recognize this difference between people, we can't bear to admit to it. Somehow we have failed to see that it doesn't hurt to recognize these differences. in fact, it actually liberates and enables you to move forward. Humility is calling a spade a spade.

That is one possibility. As I indicated, others exist as well. People are complex in their thinking and believing and motivations.

Context is vital, indeed.

Many people here on the board have had transcendent experiences, no doubt authentic ones. But that does not give us automatically insight into the whole range of meaning inherent in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.

Right, nor does it automatically give insight into a host of other things. Experiences are just that - experiences, not wisdom and insight in and of themself, though we may learn and grow wise from them, over time, with openness and by the grace of God.

A big mistake is to “advaita” any teaching just because the underlying nature transcend any specific creed. Once we found our ground of being we must use that as our base to fearlessly investigate the mysteries, without coloring it with our own opinions. Dare to try to understand what Jesus as the son of God means.

I don't think it's possible to investigate objectively, our opinions and many conscious and unconscious factors are always there as we interpret the universe. Part of the great blog symposium, actually…

Once we realize the meaning we will come to see why Jesus have made such an impact on world history, and we will bow our head in recognition and in humility.

When we believe, yes, but not all who investigate will believe.

There is no need to investigate these truths if you don't want to, but then it's better to keep silent once the subject is breached. That is a much better approach then to paint a personal description of transcendent philosophy and calling it Jesus, or Christ mind and the like. No doubt, there is some truth to statements of the kind but then there is no need to use the name of the historical Jesus. Since his name pertains to him, a historical figure, and to his work. It is quite specific.

I think it's important that we always give each other the freedom to express our thoughts and opinions respectfully, even if we don't believe others have a valid approach. After all, we could be wrong in our judgment, we could have something important to learn from another.

Love and peace,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Nicole,

Thanks for the response.

Mike, you said:

Jesus was not God since this would be an objectification of that which is beyond substance and form. However, Christ Mind seems to have been the message (similar to Buddha Mind) that Jesus taught through “I and the Father are One.” Essentially, the message has been abrogated and nullified by the 'messiah-form'  which the judeo-christian religions advocate as the quintessential focus of all worship. The egoic mind requires a 'form' represent God. Problem is that focus on forms may dissociate and displace from Truth.

Certainly we must be careful of that pull to limit God to what can be contained in human form, as seductive and natural as it is. But as Bjorn says, that is not what Christianity means, though perhaps as individuals we may fall into that.



So Nicole,

In this period of time, this day and age, with consistent judeo-christian rifts and sectionalizing, with almost ceaseless doctrinal alteration, what does Christianity mean?
Is there one informative doctrine or message that is unique and exclusive to the christian dogma, separate from any other religion, and that has stood the test of time?

Or is there only individual interpretations.

What is the foundation for which the 'house' stands.

I'm not being debative or pugnacious, just curious…

Peace Angel,
mike S

Re: Jesus...man or god...

i think that the central difference between Christians and others is that for Christians, we understand all reality to come to a focus in the person of Jesus - Jesus's life, death, resurrection and ongoing spiritual lordship and companionship are the foundations of our life and praxis. non-christians may see Jesus as important or meaningful but not central and life-defining.

of course, the “devil is in the details”, as they say, of how we understand Jesus and live out his message and love.

does that help?

love,

nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

The trinity is useful for egoic mind to separate and divide up aspects of the absolute, when in reality to divide and separate may obstruct realization of the whole. Also, i feel we must be careful in formulating ideations of a “Transcendent Father” as this may dissociate from the Spirit Within. I imagine one could conceptualize a transcendent deity or  a theistic-otherness, and the judeo-christian ideologies are founded on this perspective. I suppose if one is lifted up from that concept and not belittled or abnegated. Problem as I see it, is religions attempt to aggrandize religion at the expense of man inner. Just think, if Source/God were really 'in' you, what would be the point of “church.”

I imagine those that correspond with Spiritual Oneness may not SEE “differences” as dividing, but as unifying. However, if another's rise in this worldly plane causes even the slightest inner disturbance to us, than we may need to review what and how we have judged another, from lack or abundance. I often find it disconcerting that so many need to assess others so frequently and suffer unecessarily because of that assessment from lack.

I do believe that both Jesus and Buddha's teaching are of course context bound, however, the message is inherently the same and will eventually lead to the same realization of univeral-inner-wholeness.

Through Chrsitian-Advaitist contexts one may realize a richer tapestry of thought that may aid in experiencing “what Jesus as the son of God means.” To be bound by any one traditional thought pattern or path may delay understanding through a “dogmatic slumber” (Keirkegarrd).

Liberation will come when differences exist as exterior to the deeper connection within that unifies all. At that point differences will no longer matter and no longer need be emphasized, but will exist nonetheless.

Just saying…

Peace Angels,
mike S

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Hi Nicole,

Seeing is believing. Investigation, or seeking, is really just interesting if we find. So we seek, investigate, in order to come upon an answer, to find. And of course it is possible to find a correct answer, an objective truth. If it weren't we all would be doomed to endless samsara and ignorance. That's why there are teachers, gurus, saviours, friends to help us, to guide us, to point the way. There are truths that are real and objective for all to see. That's why he said: Let those who have ears hear…

Dear Mike,

Oneness never needs to be a reason not to investigate, or not to distinguish differences. Oneness makes it possible to discriminate clearly. And it is so enlightening.

Rigid adherence to dogma never serves liberation, but sticking to fundamental tenets in order to clarify important points serves in elucidating the richness of spiritual experience.

The Church, or for that matter, the Sangha, is a natural offspring of the lives of awakened individuals. I never understood this until I joined a community myself. I never understood St. Pauls letters in the new testament until I realized what community was all about. It is not a lonely hearts club. It's about sharing something deeply spiritual together that cannot be experienced by one self. Christianity is not a private philosophy; its heart is in its communion. Jesus speaks lovingly about this in the end of the Gospel of St. John.

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Bjorn,

Oneness never needs to be a reason not to investigate, or not to distinguish differences. Oneness makes it possible to discriminate clearly. And it is so enlightening.

I get what you are saying and I would only add that corresponding with Being-in-the world or the ground of Being may be an end to discriminating differences or “judge not lest ye be judged.” To me, this means that when you judge (discriminate) another you essentially condemn your 'self' to said judgment (and the guilt inherent in that). In the all-inclusive ground of Being (God) there are no differences to be SEEN, since the eyes are no longer relied on as proof, but something deeper and more profound.

Rigid adherence to dogma never serves liberation, but sticking to fundamental tenets in order to clarify important points serves in elucidating the richness of spiritual experience.

I agree, yet, I struggle with the idea of “sticking to fundamental tenets.” Tenets as postulated by whom? My issue is not with the “tenets” of Christianity, as many resonate with me personally. My issue is when it is proclaimed that to believe this…requires this correlate be unequivocally accepted as well. Can we not accept this of chirstianity and also this of hindusim and this of advaita vedanta, and this of judaism, and this of Buddhism, etc, etc?

Christianity is not a private philosophy; its heart is in its communion. Jesus speaks lovingly about this in the end of the Gospel of St. John.

Yes, but it does have a tendency to exclude “non-believers,” as do all religions. If we experience love through an exclusive communion or satsang, can we superimpose that upon the parts of the world we fear? If not, then what is the purpose of communing? Source/God does not apportion off parts of the whole to be blessed, (I suspect that is our doing) but is revealed in whole or not at all. All else is merely clues to the whole.

Peace Angels,
mike S

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Thanks Mike, I really appreciate your reply.

Well, no need to accept or agree with anything unless it's been our experience. Until then, I'd just leave it as an unknown. It always amazes me how accepting a dogma or tenet without experiencing it personally almost always hinders any further investigation of it. So by blindly accepting a teaching actually stops you from realizing it. Jesus said; seek and you shall find.

The tendency to exclude…  I think that has more to do with the nature of what is being shared. The Church is open for all, but it does have a specific agenda; that of promoting Jesus. It's like your football team. If you want to play rugby, go to the rugby team, not to the football camp. We become a Buddhist monk in order to follow the Buddha, etc.

If we want to stay a free agent, no need to blame the other teams for not wanting you.

Join the army and swear allegiance to the Queen. Now we need our discrimination big time.

Re: Jesus...man or god...

If we want to stay a free agent, no need to blame the other teams for not wanting you.

Hmmm…you are correct in that blaming the other team is counterproductive (and I would add that it may have the same deleterious effect as adhering to a specific team's agenda)

However, why would they NOT want me?

The Christ message is totally inclusive and beyond forms, historical personalities, agendas, teams, etc, etc. We may not be ready for an interpretation emphasizing that level of freedom, but nevertheless, I believe we are heading in that direction.

So for now, I suppose we will continue to render unto Ceasar (judge and discriminate), in quiet assurance that soon it will no longer be necessary (I think it crucial that we keep faith in that assurance).

Besides, I would never be a member of any “team” that would have me, anyway.
So there! Nyah!

Peace Angels,
mike S

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Mike! LOL, I hear those echoes of Groucho!

chuckling

It doesn't look like you and Bjorn are going to get anywhere close to agreeing but I admire the way you keep trying to clarify your positions.

Love and light to you both,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

I bet you're a team player in your family Mike.

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Hi Bjorn,


Seeing is believing. Investigation, or seeking, is really just interesting if we find. So we seek, investigate, in order to come upon an answer, to find. And of course it is possible to find a correct answer, an objective truth. If it weren't we all would be doomed to endless samsara and ignorance. That's why there are teachers, gurus, saviours, friends to help us, to guide us, to point the way. There are truths that are real and objective for all to see. That's why he said: Let those who have ears hear…

So many voices clamouring, follow me, I have the answer, no wonder we have trouble hearing the still small voice of God in all the racket… Thank you, brother, for your faithfulness, for the steadiness of your vision. Yes, there are truths that are real and objective, yet we will always be limited and flawed in our perception of them.

love and light,

nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

What I found so liberating is not needing to interpret my experience. Deep spiritual revelation has been so impersonal and objective that I never needed to add my own version of them. I just pass on the information given.

As we sit here and read and write these blogs our experience fundamentally is the same. There is absolutely no need to add our own views about it. But if we choose to do, we know as well that it is strictly our point of view. Not limited, not an opinion, but simply our expression of something uniform and universal.

Revelation is by definition not muddled. Clear insight is just that; clear. The Absolute has no flaws. There are no chips in the armor.

The beauty of Truth is that it is a living thing, for all to see. It is never diminished if realized correctly. There is no interpretation of truth. It is what it is. Clearly and unequivocally so. But if we speak about it, as a philosophical abstraction, yes then our own perception will be flawed and limited.

Keep it real

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Dear Bjorn,

There is no unfiltered reality that we can know. The revelation as we receive it is already filtered through our perception and understanding and we further filter it as we pass it on. But that's ok. It's part of being human.

Love

Nicole

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Reality right now is unfiltered.
This is what all Saints points to.

There is an appreciation of things as they are, where we do not laden it with our subsequent labels.

Or are we just speaking past each-other?

With love,

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Dear one,

I think we are speaking past each other. Probably were we to talk directly in another medium we would understand that we are saying the same thing but in different contexts,

love and light,

nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

I had to write a paper about this in school last semester so I'm just going to post that. I hope that is ok.

One would think it to be impossible to be both human and God; your mind cannot grasp that concept. Jesus is full of surprises though. He had human characteristics just like you, but also had divine attributes that only God could have. Jesus was there in the beginning when the world was created, was born of a virgin, was tempted, was tired, was angry, and was perfect.[1] He took on the bodily form of a man, but Jesus was still divine.

Jesus was there before the beginning of time. He helped create the world. In the Bible it says that the Lord God made earth.[2] The Hebrew word for Lord is Yahweh, which is a personal name for God. All through out the New Testament people called Jesus “Lord”.

Jesus set aside his glory, omnipotence, and omnipresence in order to come to earth. We needed a savior, and Jesus became ours. He was conceived by Mary, who was impregnated by the Holy Spirit. Mary had never been with a man, and was still a virgin when Christ was born. Tracing Mary's genealogy shows that Jesus is every bit a human. Being born by the Holy Spirit also shows that He is still God, since the Holy Spirit is also God.

Jesus was tempted three times. He went into the desert, after being led there by the Holy Spirit, and fasted for forty days.[3] It was at the end of His fasting that the Devil came and tempted him. Satan called Jesus the Son of God. He did not even doubt that Jesus was divine. It was of God that Jesus was tempted just like we are tempted. It shows that Jesus past the test, and is now able to help us past our own temptations. Jesus overcame the Devil and his lies and did not sin.

Jesus also became tired.[4] In the Bible it gives an account when Jesus was on a boat. He had been working all day, and had asked the disciples to cross over to the other side of the lake in their boat. Jesus fell asleep on a cushion while they were moving across the lake. During His nap, a huge storm came and rocked the boat violently. The disciples woke Jesus up, and He rebuked the waves and storm. Even creation obeyed Jesus. Jesus was trying to increase the disciples' faith in His deity, through this miracle and every other miracle that He performed.

Jesus became angry, but it was a righteous anger. Jesus made a whip, and drove the people out of the temple.[5] He overturned benches and scattered the coins on the ground, and said that they had made the temple into a den of robbers. The temple was made for praying, but the people use it for their own sinful purposes.

Jesus was perfect. He never sinned, even though He was human. God needed the perfect sacrifice in order to save us from our sins, and Jesus became that perfect sacrifice. If He provided purification from our sins,[6] He has to be God. Jesus set an example for all of us on how we should live our lives. We have all sinned before, but that does not mean we need to continue to sin. Jesus also had perfect love. He never condemned anybody. In fact Jesus said before that He came to save and not to condemn the world.[7]

[1] Demarest, Bruce A. Who is Jesus?, (Wheaton: SP Publications, Inc, 1984), pp.43.

[2] Genesis 2:4, NIV. The Bible.

[3] Matthew 4:1-11, NIV. The Bible.

[4] Matthew 8:24, NIV. The Bible.

[5] John 2:15, NIV. The Bible.

[6] Hebrew 1:3, NIV. The Bible.

[7] John 3:17, NIV. The Bible.

[8] Philippians 2:6-11, NIV. The Bible.


 hope that was helpful. And I included the footnotes so that you knew where I got ideas and everything.

Re: Jesus...man or god...

thanks for taking the time to share this, elimgirl -

love and blessings to you,

nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Well, the Bible says that Jesus was the Son of God, send in spiritual form to become flesh.  This had to be done because of original sin, that is the disobedience of Adam and Eve, God original flesh people.  (Really it doesn't matter what the forbidden fruit was, it was the fact that both disobeyed.)

If Jesus were not both, then there would be no link between us and God, no forgiveness of sin, and people would still be killing bulls and draining their blood for the atonement. (To get right with God again).

Jesus had to die so that he could overcome the power of death to hold us all in its grip….just think about it; if Jesus hadn't died and returned to show himself risen from the dead, there would be no hope of heaven for anyone, we would all be in a much worse state than we already are….

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Thanks, Frances. It's good to continue the discussion.

I hear what you're saying, and it is good Christian doctrine, but it made me think of something. For many years now, the Jews have not accepted Jesus as their Messiah but since the destruction of the Temple have no more sacrifices.

It is so hard from our perspective, don't you think, the whole concept of animal sacrifices atoning for sin?

Peace and light,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

And it is fascinating to see how people and cultures have advocated human or animal sacrifice to atone for failures and sin for thousands of years. It seems to part of our phsyche to feel a need to repent and atone. This need to wash off, to cleanse, to purify, what in our mind is defiled and impure. Is this pointing to an existensial psycological bar to a full life? Is this what Original Sin is trying to convey? This lack, this missing, this seeking and desireing, wanting a better life, a more realized life?

This need to amend our wrongdoings. This feeling of remorse, and a keen sense of shame. This inherent call for something more pure, something more beautiful and loving. Why do we all feel relieved when people admit their wrong doings?

This psycological drama is confronted head on when Jesus appears on the scene. He knows something radical has to be done in order to break this viscious cycle that got the world left helpless in their own devices. Nothing is never enough to break the spell.

We need outside help. And Jesus saw that. He breaks the spell of eons of sacrifice, he takes away the need to sacrifice another animal, another first born.

It's a drama that has been played out in all cultures, through all time. There are plenty of remedies that deals with this human dilemma. Jesus is one that has a good track record. Good medicine for the sick.

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Yes, I beleive it is hard, especially when we don't beleive in sin, or the need for sacrifice.  If you look at the historic side of it all, the Jews were scattered across the earth and didn't have a homeland for a long time.  Hence the sacrifices were stopped.  But what about the rules? The rules have allowed each man to become their own savior, so why do they need Jesus to come back and save them?  All they have to do is to follow the rules….

What ever happened to the need to connect to something greater than ourselves, to trust that our wants and desires did not override everything else in life?  Who is to say that our power to believe should be constrained by guidelines set down by someone who is flesh and blood and bone like the rest of us?

After all, the Bible is more than just a historical book; that is, if we let it be….it is a guideline to our past and future and present all in one volume.  And if you choose to believe that Jesus isn't real, or that he is is between you and Him….

Thanks for allowing me to speak what I know to be is truth, even though your truth may not be the same one I hold.

frances

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I think Jesus was a man…a remarkable man, but a man nonetheless.

I adore Jesus, but I'm not a Christian. In fact, I'm a Pagan Witch. I respect Jesus for the man that he was, not for being the 'son of God'.
And speaking of that, are we not all the sons and daughters of one God or another???
One thing I do know for sure, is that we're all the sons and daughters of Mother Earth.

I believe that Jesus's teachings are the real commandments. His miracles? Moralistic Illusions, created to prove a point.

Take for instance, his turning water into wine.
The moral of this story, boys and girls, is to be grateful with what you have, because some don't even have that!

I think Jesus sparked up a new religion because he saw that his fellow man needed something, some hope, something to believe in.

And while we're on the topic of Jesus, here's one thing I don't understand.
So-called Christians are all against Jews…Jesus was BORN a Jew! And aren't his teaching all about loving your fellow humans.
I don't mean to cause offence by this to any Christians that may be on this site, it's just my oppinions.

Maggs

BB xXx

Re: Jesus...man or god...

maggs and frances, i do thank you for sharing honestly and openly.

frances, it's true that the Jews are dispersed making sacrifices impossible. however, i don't see them as all having become individualists. if you look at devout Jews, like other devout followers of God they are very committed to living for God, in the way they understand that to be done best.

and there are many ways of understanding the Bible, within and without faith perspectives. some understand it from a literalist perspective, some from a historical-critical perspective. of course, it's more challenging to see as valid the way someone of faith from another perspective than our own looks at the Bible. but we all have much to learn from each other.

maggs, that is indeed one lesson that can be drawn from the turning of water into wine. the glory of the Bible and other deep and meaningful writings is that there are many, many possible lessons from each story, parable, saying… these are rich sourches of wisdom.

and i agree with you whole-heartedly, it's sad when Christians fail to honour the Jewishness of Jesus and the essential message of the gospel by hardening our hearts against any human being, for every one is loved by God, as deeply as you or I…

light and peace,

nicole

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I don't think that all Christians are against Jews. I think it might be better to word that as saying “Some”. I believe it would be wrong for someone to be against anyone at all… I mean let alone a Christian. It would go against everything that we as Christians stand for.
I know that I'm not against them.. nor is my family.

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you're right, I know of many Christians who embrace Jews and what we learn from Judaism. blanket statements are often limited in this way.

love,

nicole

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I do have a question though. If people who aren't Christians respect Jesus highly as a man but don't think that He is God or the son of God.. w/e.. wouldn't that mean that Jesus was a liar? Going with that, wouldn't that mean that anything that Jesus had to say was a complete false hood. So why then would people “adore” him or appreciate anything that he would have to say.Wouldn't it just be a lie?

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Lauren, not everyone believes that everything that is said in the Bible to have been said by Jesus is true. so, if you don't believe that he presented himself as the Son of God, then he's not a liar.

Love,

Nicole

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That's exactly my point Nicole. If you don't believe everything in the Bible that Jesus said to be true, why trust anything in it at all? Or Jesus at all? Why does a person get to pick and choose what is true and what is not true?

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Hi Lauren,

In fact, we all pick and choose what to embrace and follow. Even the most devout Christians reject many of the things that are found in the Old Testament, which is a large part of the revelation, right? Also, they reject some of the teachings of the New Testament. It is unavoidable, as it was written at a time and in a culture that was very different from ours, having standards and priorities alien to ours.

For example, how many Christian women do you know who cover their hair or never cut it? How many would never marry again after a divorce because they do not want to commit adultery, as Jesus said remarriage (in any case but for adultery) was to create adultery?

So, believers make choices - how much more should those who do not see it as inspired Word but as a document based on some truth but probably deliberately shaped for its purposes from accurate facts by the community of faith in which it emerged and became canon?

Peace,

Nicole

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I don't understand what you mean by saying that if people don't believe something is true and then saying that Jesus is a liar.  It doesn't make too much sense to me. 

It is like you saying that you are a female, and me saying that I don't believe you.  Does that make you a liar? 

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hehe I meant pick and choose out of the Bible what is true or not ^_^

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I'm not a bible scholar or anything, but I do happen to believe that Jesus believed he was the son of God, but also believed that we are all children of God.  He said that all the things he could do, we could also do, and better. 

I believe that Jesus was a man who became Awakened (Christed).   And apparently, he believed that anyone could become that way if only they could change their thinking about it (be born again). 

I don't believe that Jesus was God incarnated in man.  He stated over and over that God was within us; I believe that Jesus was man becoming more Godlike :) 

Just my thoughts :)

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Jesus the man and Jesus the son of God can be verified in your own experience. No need to rely on your own assumptions, or anyone else's. If you sincerely seek Him you will find revelation in your own heart as to what the passages in the Bible refer to. If you choose prematurely to decide what the meaning is based on your own ideas you'll close the door to discovery. Better to hold no opinion, and wait for, seek for, revelation. Follow Jesus' own teaching; seek and you will find.

Ask and it will be given

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Thanks, Deanna, Bjorn, we do have many perspectives here, don't we?

Love,

Nicole

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Deanna– Yes, we are all God's children.. but we are all adoptive children. Jesus is the “true child” of God. Because of Jesus we were all given the choice to be adopted into God's family, we just now have to accept it. Not everyone does.

Jesus said that He was God. ”John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” In John it says that Jesus was there in the very beginning of time. John 1:1” In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ”
1 John 4:9
This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

I don't think that we can go beyond all that Jesus did..because Jesus did it all at the cross. But I think that Jesus did give us His Spirit in order to do great and extraordinary things- supernatural things. (i.e miracles, healings, prophecies)

I think that we can all become born again, and change our old ways for new ways. But to be exactly like Jesus is impossible. We could never become sinless, perfect humans.. otherwise we'd be God ourselves.. hence why Jesus was God ;)

Jesus stated that God was WITH us.. was in our hearts.. but how was Jesus becoming MORE like God? In what way was He lesser? Examples in the Bible showed He never did a single thing wrong, said a single thing wrong, acted out of character..

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I guess I don' t see how we are adopted children when we are FROM God.  We are created by God.  We came from the womb of God.   To me, that means we are biological offspring :)

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Sorry for the late reply to some of your guy's points….

Nicole - I'm curious…do you believe that the Bible is inerrant? 

Deanna - I was wondering where in the Bible did Jesus say that all of the things He could do we could do and in fact we could do better and that we were all children of God?

Frances - I'm not sure that the Bible says the same thing as you do about animal sacrifices.  The sacrifice of animals was just part of the Mosaic law that was handed down from God to Moses.  The Old Testament saints were not saved because of animal sacrifices.  The shedding of an animals blood did not atone for any sins.  I think the Bible talks about how the Old Testament saints were basically saved the same way we are.  Belief in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus.  A good example is in Romans 4 when Paul talks of justification not being of works but of faith.  Verse 3 says, “For what does the Scripture say?  'Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.'”  I think the previous chapter further explains how God redeemed the Old Testament saints. 

Romans 3:23-26:  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.  This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.  It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

So, what I think Paul is saying here is that God “passed over former sins.”  Which means that the people before Jesus had died still were saved though Jesus had not died for them yet.  So for God to be just he sent Jesus as the “propitiation” or that Jesus bore the wrath of God for us.  So Abraham and Moses and everyone before Jesus had died had put their faith in God that he would some day atone for their sins in the work of Jesus Christ.  I think this is further explained a bit in Hebrews 11. 

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Hi Chase,

To answer part of your question of Deanna (I leave it to her to answer the other part :) ), here is the quote from John's gospel:

< John 14:12 >>

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Bjorn - When you say, “Jesus the man and Jesus the son of God can be verified in your own experience.”  Does this mean that Jesus is going to be different to different people?  So if one person thinks that Jesus was the Messiah and that Jesus was not the Messiah are both of these people right?

Nicole - One more thing sorry.  You said way back, “Over the years, I realise more and more how limited that can be to those who are not resonant with the Christian perspective.”  I was just curious how is this argument limited?

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Hello, this my frist time replying to a post. This discussion is very interesting. I personally have looked into this question myself on this life's journey.

I was brought up being taught that Jesus was a man and our savior..than as an adult I was taught further that he was God. As a child, I knew of other cultures believing in more than one God. It was very confusing to understand how a man( a son of God, kinda like Herucules)became God himself. I personally asked for guidaince in discovering the truth as I believe it.
In the very frist chapter of Hebrews, {just a side note: there are authorative debates on who actually wrote this book, some seminaries have brought up the question was Jesus actually Micheal and was Hebrews written by Him, yet this information doesnot save souls so it is not a topic most pastors touch}it states that God has appointed the Son as heir to all things AND through whom He made the universe. Now how can the Man, Jesus, be the link to the creation of the universe if he was not already there? But was man made before the Heavens, no,  we were not, not in this pyhscial sense.
Someone in the this discussion mention animal sacurfices. In my studies, I have come to understand that these acts were not to save someone but to cleanse those who spoke directly to God. Before Jesus' regular people could not directly ask God to forgive them. They had to go through the proper authorities. So they would take an animal to the priests, the priests would than sacurface it, and cleanse himself w/ this blood. Just in case noone knew, Only the High Priest could face God, so the lower priests{about two} would tie a rope around the foot of that priest, just in case he was not cleansed enough for the presence of God. Which of course means that if this Priest killed over from the Glory of God they would have to pull him back out, bury him and start all over. Also, the shedding of sacufical blood was done to make some issues concrete, more or less, a completed contract. Someone's word was not good enough.
I only bring this up because in the second chapter verse six is states that is was testified:
    “What is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him?
     You made him a little lower than angels; you crowned him with glory and honor
      and put everything under his feet.”
It goes on to say that Jesus was made lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor BECAUSE he suffered death. Back in chapter one it states that God said about the Son, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter
             of your kingdom.
           You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has
             has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
Now, besides for our healing and our sins, why would Jesus shed his blood? To become God? No, I do not believe so, I believe his blood concreted a contract for the Human race to survive to the ages that may come, for we all are the Creator's creation, too. I believe the Creator's right hand Angel, Micheal, was chosen for this Honorable quest to insure that all of creation would survive. Does this mean that Micheal-Jesus is God? Well, in my book, if someone sacurficed such as that, then, YES, He has earned the honor of that position.
Jesus is my Heavenly Father and my eternial brother. May he be glorfied!
Thank you for letting me share my belief. May we all be blessed, Sincerely, Ginlei

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Thanks, Ginlei, indeed, may we all be blessed! Amen,

Love and light,

Nicole

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Hi Chase,

You ask a lot of really good questions. The two you asked of me were first if I believe the Bible is inerrant. No, I don't. I believe it's inspired, but I have studied it for many years, and to my understanding there are many aspects of it that cannot be harmonised with other parts of it, as well as things written from a limited historical/cultural perspective that we know now are simply wrong. But that's ok, it is still a rich source of wisdom.

Your other question was about the Liar, lunatic or Lord perspective - sorry I haven't been clear  as I have been trying to explain why it doesn't work for non-Christians. IMO, it relies on a presupposition that one believes that Jesus made the claims about himself that he did. If he didn't, he doesn't have to be liar, lunatic or Lord.

I have tried to explain that there are many, many ways of understanding and appreciating the Bible. Some do it purely from the point of view of literature - great stories and myths (not lies but stories than are definitive for all time, archetypes) that bring us wisdom and insight.

Some take a historical/critical approach, which over the years has been refined from the basic JEPD hypothesis of authorship of the Pentateuch through canonical criticism and many other forms of scholarship, and I would wish to underline that many of these scholars are people of deep faith like Bishop NT Wright. Scholarship does not simply equate with rejection of the kerygma, of the message of the Word.

I'm sure there are others here who, if they wished, could add other reasons why one doesn't have to lock into one of those three or else totally reject everything Jesus said and did. It's important not to oversimplify, especially when we are dealing with the deepest and most intuitive realities.

Light and peace,

Nicole

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Hi Chase,

I mean that anyone that seeks, asks and knocks, can and will find the truth about Jesus; that he is the Messiah, the son of God, and the risen one. This will be the case because truth is one, not two. Divine insight, revelation, faith, deep learning, study and inquiry leads to greater maturity and deeper wisdom.

We might find Jesus at different levels of understanding, but as we deepen our knowledge, more and more mysteries will be revealed.

This is equally true about any endeavor. Seek to understand what the Buddha spoke about and you'll find it (if you stick with it).

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Kendra, what a great post….I like it.

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Deanna: I’m not too sure what you are saying about us coming from God’s womb. I don’t think that God physically gives birth to us. In Psalms David talks of how God formed him in his mother’s womb but I don’t think we come from God physically or spiritually for that matter. In Romans Adam’s sinful nature is imputed to us at birth. Any time adoption is mentioned in the Bible it is mentioned after someone has placed their faith and trust in Jesus that he is Savior and Lord.

Bjorn: I can see that religion probably plays a big part in your life and I feel that it really commendable. But it seems like religion is just a bunch of hard work. As long as we seek we gain more knowledge. Is there an end to our seeking? Is there salvation as long as we keep going?

Nicole: So you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God but that it contains errors. My question to you now is, is God not prefect then? And what about verses like 2 Tim. 3:16, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness…” How can the scriptures be useful to us if they are not all accurate or relevant to our time? How can we really believe anything that the Bible tells us as truth?

Well, I think the gospels are either true or false. If the gospels are true than the liar, lunatic, Lord argument is not valid. But it seems to me that there is plenty of evidence (manuscript, non-biblical evidence) that Jesus was a real person and that he did say the things he said.

It seems that from what you are saying (please correct me if I’m wrong) that the Bible is really just up to people’s interpretation. I may take the Bible to be literal but you may take the Bible to be something totally different.

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Hi Chase,

Nicole: So you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God but that it contains errors. My question to you now is, is God not prefect then?

Sure, God is perfect. But we are not, nor are our writings.

 And what about verses like 2 Tim. 3:16, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness…”

First of all, 2 Timothy is only referring to what we now call the Old Testament, since the New Testament was mostly unwritten at the time, and certainly far from being canonised. So, all those problematic Old Testament doctrines and teachings that Christians have rejected are what is being discussed here.

So, all believers of Christian and Jewish traditions have to wrestle with this - in what sense is this Psalm that talks about dashing the brains out of the enemies' babies God-breathed? Or what are we meant to learn from the stories about rape , annihilation of towns, God being tired of humanity, etc?

How can the scriptures be useful to us if they are not all accurate or relevant to our time? How can we really believe anything that the Bible tells us as truth?

The Scriptures are most useful if we understand what they really are in their context and don't do too much eisegesis or bibliolatry. But that is just my opinion. I understand you see things differently, and that's ok.

Well, I think the gospels are either true or false. If the gospels are true than the liar, lunatic, Lord argument is not valid. But it seems to me that there is plenty of evidence (manuscript, non-biblical evidence) that Jesus was a real person and that he did say the things he said.

I happen to believe Jesus was real and that he said what the Bible says he said. So we agree there.

It seems that from what you are saying (please correct me if I’m wrong) that the Bible is really just up to people’s interpretation. I may take the Bible to be literal but you may take the Bible to be something totally different

In fact, whether you will or no, the Bible really is up to the way each of us interpret it. If there were only one way of understanding it in faith, then we wouldn't have hundreds of different sects, within which there are many disagreements, would we? However deeply we revere it as Word of God, we will always view it subjectively, through translations that are themselves interpretations.

Light and peace,

Nicole

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Hi Nicole.. at the end you said that “In fact, whether you will or no, the Bible really is up to the way each of us interpret it. If there were only one way of understanding it in faith, then we wouldn't have hundreds of different sects, within which there are many disagreements, would we? However deeply we revere it as Word of God, we will always view it subjectively, through translations that are themselves interpretations.”

I don't believe that the Bible is up to how WE interpret it. I think there is really only ONE way to interpret it- God's way. The true way. Back then there weren't hundreds of different sects. People think they have all the right answers, that they're the one's that are right. Guess what! We're not right! We can never be 100% right. If we are, then we are further from the truth then we thought we were. To ever get a true translation of God's word we would have to be fluent in Arabic, Hebrew, and Greek. I think too many people try and fit God in their own little box of what they think God should be like. God doesn't fit in a box. God said that there is only one truth, one way. People take that truth.. that one way and take it a part and fit in into their lifestyle so it fits them. So there a now hundreds of differents sects. There are now million “truths” running around trying to lure people in. But it's all empty and false.

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Hi Lauren,

Even those who are fluent in Hebrew and Greek and sincerely desire to understand and follow God's way alone will come to different ways of understanding the Bible. Yet though “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”, and so we all will not be able to see 100% from the perspective of God, God loves us and accepts us. That gives me great hope and joy. We can learn from each other, we can open our hearts to know more deeply what the Spirit teaches us.

Light and peace,

Nicole

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God loves us enough though to not let us get away with our sinful selves though… I don't think He's the type to just sit back and let us go on doing the wrong thing. I think He's more for change then “acceptance”.

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I have always enjoyed reading Darren's scriptural interpretations

Paul doesn't deny that he heard the story from others, just as you and I have. My mother taught me the story of Jesus Christ as secular history. She died believing that one little individual lived and died two thousand years ago. That's how she was taught by her mother. Throughout the ages men have heard the story told in that manner.

And the 'story' of Christ can be identified in every culture and on every continent. All had their savior 'god,'  (Mithras, Dionysos, Attis, Isis, Osiris). Christ is the messianic archetype or redeemer archetype that exists within the preconscious of all sentient beings. We live and structure the chief components of our life by myth. The Christ idea can be considered as the highest idea or myth we wish to manifest in our lives. Therefore, we seek to manifest it in our minds and actions.

Paul discovered through revelation that Jesus Christ is a plan which is contained in man. The plan is not outside of you, but within; and when it unfolds it is man, for you are man.

The plan of salvation is archetypal 'within' all minds. This primordial salvation archetype is universal and recurrent throughout every culture, in every century and can be observed throughout recorded history and long before the scribing of the bible. “Sin” is nothing more than a failure to correspond with the universal meaning as contained through the archetype of salvation. However, that will be interpreted differently by every separate mind that considers the meaning and applies that meaning to their lives.

The question is not be why does this archetype exist, since Jung and those who followed have clearly made the case for its existence in all minds. But from where does it originate?

However, I can imagine how those who ascribe to the logic of “the bible says it so…” may fail to identify this archetypal strand which runs through all religions and can be seen in all religious texts.

This idea of archetypes was discussed on a previous thread that Nicole started back in February for those interested:   http://pods.gaia.com/is_there_a_god/discussions/view/242693

Peace Angels,
mike S

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Hi Chase,

Receiving salvation, coming to Christ, can happen at any point in your walk, but that never need to stop you investigation further. Rather, most likely it will increase your curiosity to really dig your teeth into the mysteries of the Bible. We live and learn.

Salvation is the beginning of new life. Don't you want to explore it? I'm sure you do. Far from being hard work, it is a joy. Actually, there is a need to proceed exploring. If you don't you will fail to grow in Christ.

If you're afraid to question the Bible you don't have the confidence that it contains the truth. If you're confident that it is real, you will not hesitate to explore and examine its content. Truth will always prevail. Rather than limit yourself to a fixed literal interpretation or a blind acceptance of it (which induces a false sense of righteousness) you want to experience the mysteries first hand. So the biblical stories comes alive in your own experience.

Bless,

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Bjorn, what an exciting adventure it is!

Mike, thanks for linking the other discussion and putting it all in context of world religions.

Darren, that was a beautiful wander through the ages with you.

Lauren, indeed God calls us to leave the shallows and swim in the depths of our true selves, in the light of Christ. It is a lifelong journey and a thrilling one.

Gratefully,

light and peace to all,

Nicole

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So, if this is posted twice I apologize for some reason I couldn't see my post the first time I tried to post it…

Nicole:  First of all I must say thank you for responding to all of my questions.  You have been very gracious in trying to help me learn more (even though I may or may not agree or disagree).  Also, I just want to admit that you are my intellectual superior and again because of this I am thankful for your responses.

You said, “God is perfect.  But we are not, nor are our writings.”  I can agree with that in a sense.  God is always perfect.  We are never perfect.  But logically I just wouldn’t think that God’s own inspired word to us, even though it is through human authors would contain any errors.  Law God gave to Moses was basically a reflection of God’s character.  I wouldn’t think that God would allow his character to be altered by human error in anyway.  I’m not sure what examples you are talking of but all that I can say is that any time that the Lord told Israel to wipe out any nations is because of sin.  God was judging those people.  He is the righteous judge.  Now, people may think that God was to harsh by wiping out all of humanity by sending a world wide flood and only saving Noah.  But something that is hard for us to remember sometimes is that our sin makes us infinitely apart from God.  Paul tells us in Romans, “no one is righteous, no not one” and “the wages of sin is death.”  But it’s not like God was playing favorites or anything.  He passed down judgment on his own people as well.  So, if you have any specific examples I wouldn’t mind trying (key word trying) to explain what we could learn from those texts. 

You said, “The Scriptures are most useful if we understand what they really are in their context and don't do too much eisegesis or bibliolatry.”  My only question, what the heck does bibliolatry mean?

I must say I’m glad that you and I agree that Jesus was real and that what he said in the Bible was real. 

True there are many many different sects in this world.  But that’s just what they are different sects.  Though there are hundreds of denominations in this country alone I would say most of us still agree on the core belief of Christianity, the gospel.  We may differ on the little things such as mode of baptism or communion, but as long as the denomination believes we are saved by grace alone by faith alone in Christ alone to the glory of God alone we basically agree. 

“However deeply we revere it as Word of God, we will always view it subjectively, through translations that are themselves interpretations.”  I think this sentence is self-contradictory.  You are telling me (objectively) that interpretation of basically anything we read is subjective.  My question to you then is, if someone interprets the Bible and says to himself, “hey the Bible is against abortion so I’m going to shoot the next abortion doctor I see” how can we hold him accountable. Minus any societal laws or norms if we were just strictly talking about the Bible here we would have no basis to judge him because that was just his faithful interpretation of the Bible. 

Bjorn: 

First of all thank you for answering my questions.  You and Nicole have been very gracious to me in trying to help me learn.  I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it. 

I agree with you 100% salvation is the beginning of life and that we get immeasurable joy from it.  My question though now is can we gain this type of joy from the Buddha?  I think you had mentioned earlier that if we seek what the Buddha says we will find it.  Are you saying we will find his type of enlightenment as well?  

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Hi Chase,

Still can't see your post - it's strange! I've seen this issue before but am not sure why it happens. You might want to look into it with the devs at http://pods.gaia.com/gaia_support

It must be frustrating…

Edit - I flagged the problem at the support pod. Let's see what they say.

Light,

Nicole

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just for fun i think i will throw into the mix here what the bible actually says and how hardly anyone in the christian tradition believes what it says; or at least they never talk about it…

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Hi Andrew,

Yes, even when the believers were in the handfuls, there were those who followed Paul, or Apollos, or… http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-4.htm

 it's in our nature to splinter, it would seem.

Those are good examples, but just examples. There are many more. I hope we can just accept that it's not as simple as who believes the Bible and who doesn't. Understanding and interpreting it and meditating on it is a lifelong endeavour with more and more questions arising as we delve into its richness.

Love and light,

Nicole

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Hi Andrew, I love to speak about these passages.
The flood is a beautiful description of how to survive the flood of ignorance that drowns the world. Build a vessel to ride on top of the waves, be truthful, and you'll find dry land.

I'd love to hear Darren expound on it.

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First, I want to thank our resident Magician ~Matthew for fixing the code that made it impossible for us to see your post, Chase.

When I asked, “do you know why this happens?”

He answered, “Yes, it happens when a post contains formatting or html code that interferes with the usual way of displaying text.  It particularly happens when text is copied/pasted from MS word documents. 

“BTW, I removed the problem code from that posting you mentioned above :)”

Now, to answer your post, Chase.

Your intellectual superior? Tush, comparisons are not helpful. We all have different strengths and weaknesses. I may know more than you in some areas, you no doubt know a lot I don't know, and in the end, it doesn't matter a bit. We are all one.

1) Inspiration - yes, there are different theories of what that means. The dictation method, that the Bible was inspired as a sort of word for word dictation from God to people. Were this correct, IMO, there wouldn't be all the differences in style etc we see that seem to shore up the JEPD theory (Wellhausen) of sources here for one overview

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html

(one list of apparent inconsistencies - read the caveat before, the person who put it together understands well that most or all can or have been explained differently by those who believe in word by word inspiration, it's just to give you an overview of why many believe the Bible is  full of inconsistency and error)

2) Bibliolatry - worshipping the Bible. Only God is God, no other.

3) Most of us agree on the core - I believe that, but then again, I seem to differ from many fundamentalists I know on what that core that we agree on is. For example, in the Anglican church of which I am a part,  part of the core for the fundamentalists seems to be that it is very important that same sex blessings are agreed to be bad and wrong. So many bishops stayed away from the recent Lambeth conference of bishops in protest. I find that very sad.

“Saved by grace alone by faith alone…” Each of these concepts can be understood in many ways. So if we all agree, are we all agreeing to the same?

4) Accountability and interpretation - people say things all the time, some of them are even true to their understanding. People may justify their acts of violence by claiming God told them or that they understood that from the Bible, and may be sincerely believing the truth of it. In fact, they have done, throughout history, so contributing to religion being a byword to many, a sign of fanaticism and hysteria to be avoided at all costs. This too is very sad to me. As the saying goes, “The road to hell is paving with good intentions.”

However, what people say or believe has nothing to do with their accountability for their actions. If people are insane, we can consider them too adrift from reality to be accountable. However, if people are sane, however mistaken they may be in their interpretations of Scripture or any teaching, they are still accountable for their wrongdoing, to God, to society, to themselves.

Blessings, light and peace,

Nicole

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crap, I forgot about that code thing…

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This truely an awesome pod, thank you nicole for beginning it. I woulld like to thank you for quoting “the Road to hell is paved w/ good intentions” because we all have good intentions in hopefully everything we do. Which, I do believe, Darren has expressed about Paul and his discovery of who he was. Yes, I do believe there is an end to our seeking of salvation. For me, Salvation means survivual. My Salvation came when I seeked out the truth. Truth is about survivaul of the fitist. Can anyone hang? Yes, if their truth begins w/ themselves. How many people actually like looking at themselves for the truth?

Andrew, thank you for your opinion as a literalist, as a literalist myself, I have come to understand that noone speaks of the cleansing of the earth because if it happened once couldn't it happen again? Is the predictions of 2012 an expected cleansing?
As for Melchercidek, High Priest of Salem, why would he be mentioned if he isn't important and has an a role to play in our future? Will he appear out of no where again in 2012 or has he already been here again?

Darren, Thank you for interpurttion of truth, I couldn't of put it in better words. May I quote you about the “hollowed eye”? Also, I'd like to know, does being a sleeper mean the same as being a dreamer? As for the Elohim, I know the spelling to a little different than what the books say and I misspelled it in one other post. The spelling I know is Elyohim. Is this correct? I can only wait for Melchercidek.
I'd also like to say I like how you said,”Do Not think that once you have experienced scripture you are not in anyway set free from the horrors of the world, for we are not.” Well put!
For I have too experienced scripture. As it says, I was drunk w/ knowledge, I was a beleiver of little faith. I became a faithful believer when I tasted the blood and heard the screams of the past and future. An awaking experience! As the  world knows we are at the end of the horrors of the earth and the peace that Jesus and our heavenly father promised is on the horizon. That is why we are in the enlightment time of this existence.
To the question of seeking the knowledge of Budda, well isn't Budda Jesus's brother in arms of the salvation of the Earth? To understand any type of multi-factitied gem we must all, literally throw off our old self, become almost selfish to find the essence of truth and Andrew that is where leaving our families and loved comes in.
I'd also like to say, I was very angery with the knowledge that I was an experiment. I was furious that the bible had been peiced together by human priest's that were under the direction of a queen who wanted her kingdom under her thumb. But I am greatful, that out off all the relgions back then and now, that the truth has still seeped out in the mist of it.
May we all blessed in this experiment of existence. Be at peace w/ the ride of your life. May the Ark have room for us all.
Ginlei

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Hello, I couldnot read my hand righting and misspelled Melchezidek, sorry, but i forgot to add that if this High Priest was not important, does that mean that Micheal in Daniel is not important either?
Just a question thats been on my mind.
Ginlei

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Hi ginlei,

Of course, both Melchizedek and Daniel are vital…

Love,

Nicole

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Joshua ben Joseph was a holy man in his day.

The myth is coopted from the 15-25 versions of virgin birth/death/resurection that the male dominated foreign salvationist whose root was in zooroaster conquired and dominated the inner council of the Jewish temple.  Then spread throughout the mid east and ancient world.  Conquesting the more natural earth-based mother religions which are in line with balancing the world with human drives - also known as the mystery schools. 

When these things combine and get manipulated through time, you get the modern perpetrator religion of christianity.  Time increases the belief and the dominator/victim mentality which has conquired the world with its selfishness.

The christos originally was the seed placed within the womb of the mother, balancing her and bringing forth new life which brought her pleasure - but even that was coopted too.

Sad, the stories we tell ourselves and what actions we take the process of believing them to be true. 

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Nicole: 

Thanks Matthew and thanks Nicole for trying to figure out what the problem is. 

Fine just throw away my compliment (intellectual superior thing) like it’s nothing j/k.  Anywho, I do feel you know more about this subject than I and that I am learning a lot so I do thank you for that immensely. 

1)    I haven’t done any research on any of this but isn’t it a possibility that God would’ve inspired the Bible word for word but allowed the authors poetic license in how they write?  I mean I don’t literally word for word read the Bible I look at the Bible literally from a point of view of the genre.  The Psalms are written in a much different style than the Gospels.  Some answer to biblical inconsistencies…

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/hway.html

http://www.tektonics.org/index2.html

Well, I’m not gonna lie to you I don’t know hardly anything about the JEPD source theory.  I’ll have to look that up for you and respond to it later.  If that’s OK with you?

2)    Thanks for the clarification

3)    Well, I don’t know much about the controversy going on in the Anglican church.  I do know that there are some Episcopal churches (the American “branch” of the Anglican church correct?) are having some legal battles over land or something?  Anyway, my question to you now is if parts of the Bible simply aren’t true, how can we take any of the Bible as truth?  Or if it is just up to people’s interpretation (which are many) how can there be one truth? 

What does grace, faith, Jesus, glory of God mean to you then? 

4)    So, can you condemn those people who use God and the Bible in extremely harmful ways if it’s just up to interpretation? 

Letting people off for being insane just leaves to much up for interpretation doesn’t it?  I mean a lot of people can say they are insane to try and get away with things.  People who are insane don’t have any more of an excuse than we do.  They just need more help that’s all.  The Bible says that all are sinners and all deserve death.  If someone is insane since birth does this mean he has an excuse before God?

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Ah, Chase, so frustrating for you to write and write and not have your messages appear! I would like to respond but have no idea what you said…

DonBear, good to see you here, it's been a long while, hope all is well in your world.

ginlei, your icon is quite striking… thanks for taking the time to share of your journey.

love to you all,

nicole

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the point i was making nicole is that the so called literalists are as selective in their interpretations of the bible as anyone; and what bothers me is that they do know this but deny it. you can pretty well walk into any church and they will hand you a piece of paper that lists their doctrines and these doctrines are again, selective interpretations of scripture; which isn't necessarily a bad thing but i just wish these folks would admit it……

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Hi Chase,

Yes you can discover the truths that the Buddha expounded. But make sure you do not do so from a Christian perspective. In order to realize what the Buddha taught you need to immerse yourself into that world view, study the root texts, practice meditation, find good guidance, have deep spiritual awakening insights.

Once you discovered what the Buddha was/is and what he taught, you will be able to place him into a historical framework, where culture, society and time plays key roles in the awakening of mankind to higher and higher awareness of our spiritual nature.

Jesus brings unprecedented joy and salvation to the story. The Buddha outlined the discipline needed to live a pure life, he dissected the psyche to help us understand its ways. There are strands of Buddhism that hold out a promise of salvation, but most do emphasize structure, learning and penetrating insight into the nature of things: Impermanence, No-self, and Unsatisfactoriness. Grounding their discipline on Morality, Insight and Wisdom. But definitely, revelation is paramount in order to begin to grasp his teachings.

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Christ and Buddha are IN you. The timeless message needs little work in order to realize. Both proclaimed that you need DO NOTHING to correspond with that message and all your “doings” may keep you from it.

Nevertheless, in this world of existence the idea “no pain, no gain” seems to dominate our thinking and our time. Maybe the idea of hard work and sacrifice is an obstacle to Truth.

However, we have done it this way for so long, I imagine the ego would rebel against such a radical change in belief.

The Christ and Buddha message are the same and come from the same origin and will resonate with the same part of your mind for which it resonates with all individual thinkers. (the teachers just happen to be from different continents and that's about it).

Dwell there awhile.

But, I'm just saying…

Peace Angels,
mike S

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Glorious how we swing between the poles of oneness and duality eh Mike?

Peace angel,

Nicole

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Once again Mike, you are simplyfying things. Yes, truth is simple, but if we follow your advice no one will care to unearth and reveal various aspects of different teachings, that highlights different perspectives that embellishes this historical existence.

Remaining in an open state will inadvertibly grant you new insights, so whether you'll like it or not, it's difficult not to continue learning. So why do you keep being so stubborn?

Sorry but I do believe we all understand what you are pointing towards but it hardly add anything to the investigation (except from sharing your view).

It's too easy to say the Buddha is the same as Jesus. Way too easy. Because when you mention their name you do refer to them as individual historical beings, as well as our own fundamental truth. These names came from these figures in history. If you prefer not to liken our spiritual essence to them, there is no need to use their names. But once you decide to use their names you must include their historical significance, because it is there, in that meeting point between heaven and earth, all differentiation ceases. God becomes man, and man becomes God.

Yes, you adhere to this in the present as yourself, but hand on heart, how far have you taken it, in real time and real space? By including them we do not impose any limitations whatsoever on our own realization of the very thing they are representing.

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Bjorn,

I did not present a perspective in opposition to you, so I'm curious as to why you accuse me of “being so stubborn”? I only present an adjacent or parallel perspective for consideration. Actually I gave NO specific advice nor did I advise that one should not seek to “continue learning.” If you look between the lines all you will see is empty space.

But i imagine if you continue to take my words out of context you will form opinions adverse to the balanced perspective I seek to present. I only add, with no wish to take away. However, it seems you wish to negate my views to provide greater credence to your own?(that's a question NOT an accusation)

Sorry but I do believe we all understand what you are pointing towards but it hardly add anything to the investigation (except from sharing your view).

So you speak for others? I have allied with many of your perspectives and viewpoints in the past and the views of many other commenters who resonate. Your opinion that I add nothing to the investigation is rather dismissive and  bit cruel. Sorry you feel that way.

It's too easy to say the Buddha is the same as Jesus. Way too easy. Because when you mention their name you do refer to them as individual historical beings, as well as our own fundamental truth. These names came from these figures in history. If you prefer not to liken our spiritual essence to them, there is no need to use their names. But once you decide to use their names you must include their historical significance, because it is there, in that meeting point between heaven and earth, all differentiation ceases. God becomes man, and man becomes God

The message is the same not the forms or cultures from which they originated. I do NOT speak to historical personae or “persons” as history represents, but the universal message that give the forms relevance. I do not state that the “persons” or forms are similar only the message and that message is within all minds as they choose to access these ideas, as all eventually must.

You may wish to represent the millions of historical interpretations of these “persons” (or just your own personal opinion of those forms or persons) but when you get past that, I imagine you will then dwell on that message as more crucial to what the world requires as saving grace. You may wish to believe what you have been taught that these names are actual people in history and you may be right. But there is just as much reputable historical scholarship (christian and otherwise) that claim that no such figures existed, only the archetypes, or deeply profound ideas are real, and it is these deep and profound 'ideas' that inexplicably drive people to explore within to learn from whence these messages have come and what they mean in postmodern society. You may believe they come from such exalted masters as the Buddha and Jesus, but I simply say they are available to all and come to all who dwell within. Even you, bro!

We look to the meaning within the message to order their lives and make sense of the experience of a seemingly absurd 'world.' You may believe they come from exalted masters as the Buddha or Jesus, but I simply say they are available to all (and they said as much also).

My point is exactly that. I do not denigrate your or anyone elses need to know and love the forms. I only emphasize the message above and beyond the forms or mouthpieces that express it (and there are many more than Jesus or Buddha that express it). The message exists in all religions and in all times (even the “advaita” that you often seem so adverse to).

Yes, you adhere to this in the present as yourself, but hand on heart, how far have you taken it, in real time and real space?

This is an unfair question since in inquiring on my “experience,” with and through a Divine Presence, it is clear you are setting me up for a 'take down' and I've been through that before by others who have relied on self-righteous assertion of the “truth,” as they see it.

I never question one's experience due to the very interior and unknown nature of all 'experience.' You may have your “truth” as I have mine and they have theirs. But when we get to the universal timeless Truth, we all access it from the same 'place' and it ain't  necesarily in “history.” But it's there, too!

Seems like it's everywhere for those who know to look for it.

But, as always, I'm just simply saying…

Peace Angel,
mike S

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Hi Mike, I don't mean to be rude. Sometimes I feel you know so much more than just adding your parallel perspective (often always the same regardless of topic; therefore “stubborn”). Maybe I wish you would join in the nitty gritty of discrimination.  I know that when we speak in very absolute terms like in One Experience your views fits perfectly, but often when we speak of Jesus it often feels like a square peg in a round hole. But maybe that is only my notion?

Not so much about my views but I do enjoy a conversation that builds on the previous input. I don't mind parallel perspectives but sometimes that takes the heat off a certain investigation. Maybe I comment on you because I feel you actually have so much more than just “your view” to share. Yes so I am in favor of a conversation that builds and evolves. I have my opinions of what maybe works and what maybe takes away from deep inquiry. To the point it is a gut reaction in me. Sorry for sounding to harsh and condemning. Just letting me go along and see if there maybe some truths to them?

Mike, I am totally fine with the way you describe truth and I understand it. I am in the same boat as you, and any take-down takes me down as well, because we all find ourselves far from the lofty heights of humanness that we have witnessed. That is where the people mentioned; the Buddha and Jesus, stand apart; their human example. Yes, we carry those seeds within, but we can't really claim full embodiment as they did? yet?

Whether they existed as real people as you bring up, doesn't really matter in this equation because we have seen in moments of revelation that that kind of attainment is actually possible. So they serve as lampposts to whats possible. They hold out a universal key (albeit different cut) for us to unlock the secrets of life.

Once again, I love Advaita, please do not misunderstand my critic of it. When Advaita is used to deter from deep inquiry it keeps people from exploring, and they find shelter and refuge in an rigid Absolute view.

I apologize if I offended you Mike.

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 Bjorn,

Sometimes I feel you know so much more than just adding your parallel perspective (often always the same regardless of topic; therefore “stubborn”).

ARRRRRRGH!! Now you've gone and done it, you've brought out my 'pirate voice'!

I know that when we speak in very absolute terms like in One Experience your views fits perfectly, but often when we speak of Jesus it often feels like a square peg in a round hole. But maybe that is only my notion?

For the most part, your “notion” is correct. Unfortunately, I will most likely continue to be the square peg when it comes to scriptural interpretations of Christ/Jesus (and this is as much applicable to “textual” interpretations of Buddha).

Whether they existed as real people as you bring up, doesn't really matter in this equation because we have seen in moments of revelation that that kind of attainment is actually possible.

Once again, I love Advaita, please do not misunderstand my critic of it. When Advaita is used to deter from deep inquiry it keeps people from exploring, and they find shelter and refuge in an rigid Absolute view.

I apologize if I offended you Mike.

Any offense taken was momentary and slight, merely a brush burn, as I am quite comfortable with disagreement and the resulting synthesis which we all seem to come to eventually. Nevertheless, I appreciate your apology and our return to a more friendlier discussion.

I recognize that when I enter scriptural discussions I most likely will get burned, so strong is the ideological conditioning. Alas, I am a glutton for punishment!

Be well, my friend!
mike S

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 ((((((((((Mike, Bjorn)))))))))) thanks for sorting things out so beautifully between the two of you!

Light and peace,

Nicole

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Thank you Mike,

I do believe both the Buddha and Jesus were men. Just for arguments sake, it makes a great difference the way we view it (regardless of the truth of it). If you decide to recognize them as men of the world albeit “world-trancenders” we can but not acknowledge them for their accomplishment and their effect upon history, and pay personal gratitude towards them (if we are interested in Truth). If they only are a figment of our collective wishes they loose all their power to affect us in a genuine way.

Once they are real, we are forced to take them seriously and therefore forced to unravel their mysteries (like the “body of Christ” for example). If we do not, we are hardly in a position to criticize them or to simplify their message. But if they are historical fabrications there is no need to pay any attention to them. After all, they are weak peoples dreams.

I believe Truth stands the test of time. While a lie crumble when scrutinized.

Now, the body of Christ, is a beautiful evocative image that points to realization of the unity of mankind as one body; true communion. But what will bring you to this realization? A deep desire for the truth. Jesus stands there with all mysteries at hand ready to dish them out one by one, as you desire more.

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Dear Bjorn,

Lies can be powerful too… I believe that there are many untruths out there that are fiercely believed that survive many years, even centuries… I would that it were not so, but it does seem to me,

Light and peace,

Nicole

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Lies only survives among liers. Prod it with truth and it crumbles.

Stark naked in the flood light. I'm exposed into the very marrow.
Nothing is hidden. Everything is Self Evident.

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Love you, Bjorn! Your certainty warms me.

Nicole

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Yes, excellent point, thanks Andrew, sorry if I obscured it in my answer.

Bjorn, it struck me yesterday afresh that this important approach you are underlining is part of the problem with many Christians' reading of the Old Testament. It is the quintessentially Jewish Scripture and yet we have often tried to understand it without immersing ourselves in the perspective of those to whom and for whom it was written. In so doing, much distortion of interpretation occurs.

It's difficult because much of the New Testament quotes the Old Testament and does so quite deliberately out of context.

Blessings,

Nicole

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Nicole,

I am confused about your statement that “It's difficult because much of the New Testament quotes the Old Testament and does so quite deliberately out of context.”

Could you show me the passages  that you are talking about?

frances

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Hi Frances,

When the writers of the New Testament quote the Old Testament, they are looking for fulfillment of prophecy or to illuminate some specifically Christian point. They are not interested in what the original context of the writing in question was.

What tends to happen as a result is that Christians reading the New Testament often only see these Old Testament passages through this lens without seeing them in their original context. So, much can be lost in the process.

It's important to remember that none of these writings were set out with our modern assumptions about how to treat sources. They did not feel any need to acknowledge the sources they used to write the accounts nor did they worry if their interpretations had anything to do with why the source was written in the first place. So, this approach was perfectly acceptable and valid. It can also be problematic though if we are looking for strict accuracy and coherency in terms of how sources are handled and so on.

Love,

NIcole

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Hi Nicole,

Christians read the OT with Jesus in mind. Non-Christians do not. We can read the old testament as Jews would read it, and as Jesus himself would have read it. Though Jesus must have been quite excited knowing what was to come. In his eyes, and in every Christian eye, scripture was being fulfilled by his life, death and resurrection. We could read the OT ignoring Jesus historical significance and still gain much insight, but why ignore it when it surely fits perfectly.

This the awesome truth: once it is being revealed no one can avoid making a decision about it. We are bound by truth itself to honor it wherever it appears. How can we choose to ignore it, once it's out in the open? We can readily understand the OT as a non-christian, but we can equally add our insights that came through the revelation of Christ. And why wouldn't we. Why would we say no to evolution, well Jesus says it himself; do not pour new wine into old skins. They will break.

New information is always opposed. The old generation always grows stagnant. Reluctant to accept something good. See how hard it was for Paul to convince the jewish communities in Turkey at the time.

For a Christian the OT context is Jesus, for non-christians not so. Therefore different renderings. Can we understand it from their point of view? Of couse we can.

But I think Darren explains it much better.

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Hi Bjorn,

Darren is amazing, yes. However, I find the insights of Jewish believers and scholars invaluable to a balanced understanding of the Tanach.

Light and peace,

Nicole

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Oh yes, the more information the better. Couldn't agree more.

Bless you

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Also Nicole, I think the more we understand from the Tanach and Jewish thought the more will it inform our view of Jesus, and vice versa. No need to limit our study.

We are not only here and now, we also partake in his-story. We embody all time. When we learn something new we gain that experience, we enlarge our conscious realm. When I married my wife I gained another life. Not only her, but all that she has gone through too. When I moved to Britain I gained a nation. When I immerse myself in scripture I partake in history. When I contemplate the stars I expand.

I only learn from you.

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yes, Bjorn! from glory to glory…

light and peace,

nicole

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Dear Chase,

I'm delighted you learned from Matthew how to resolve the formatting problems.

Fine just throw away my compliment (intellectual superior thing) like it’s nothing j/k.  Anywho, I do feel you know more about this subject than I and that I am learning a lot so I do thank you for that immensely. 

 You're most welcome, and my humble apologies if I offended.

1)    I haven’t done any research on any of this but isn’t it a possibility that God would’ve inspired the Bible word for word but allowed the authors poetic license in how they write?  I mean I don’t literally word for word read the Bible I look at the Bible literally from a point of view of the genre.  The Psalms are written in a much different style than the Gospels.  Some answer to biblical inconsistencies…

 http://www.christian-thinktank.com/hway.html

http://www.tektonics.org/index2.html

Well, I’m not gonna lie to you I don’t know hardly anything about the JEPD source theory.  I’ll have to look that up for you and respond to it later.  If that’s OK with you?

 Take your time! No hurry on my side.

2)    Thanks for the clarification

 You're welcome. :)

3)    Well, I don’t know much about the controversy going on in the Anglican church.  I do know that there are some Episcopal churches (the American “branch” of the Anglican church correct?)

Correct

are having some legal battles over land or something? 

The legal battles spring from the decision some churches have made to leave the Episcopal church over the kind of doctrinal divisions I have mentioned.

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-5967930/Episcopal-leaders-vote-to-leave.html

Anyway, my question to you now is if parts of the Bible simply aren’t true, how can we take any of the Bible as truth? 

The same way we deal with any document we come to. For example, a Wikipedia article :) - parts of it may be totally accurate, parts may be slightly flawed, and parts completely misinformed.

Or if it is just up to people’s interpretation (which are many) how can there be one truth? 

 There is One Truth. However, as humans, we only can perceive tiny bits of it, according to our perspective. The parable of the blind men and the elephant - here

What does grace, faith, Jesus, glory of God mean to you then? 

Ah, I could spend the rest of my life answering that question! Grace I see as operative throughout the world in so many ways, the work of God sustaining the universe. Faith is something I have yet to understand - I know it is a gift of God but exactly how it works is mysterious - salvation or wholeness is to me a lifelong process we are in, not a one-time event, initiated and continued by God, to which we can more or less open to through faith…

4)    So, can you condemn those people who use God and the Bible in extremely harmful ways if it’s just up to interpretation? 

Letting people off for being insane just leaves to much up for interpretation doesn’t it?  I mean a lot of people can say they are insane to try and get away with things. 

They can indeed. This is why in the legal system it isn't just a matter of what people say but independent evaluation by professionals.

People who are insane don’t have any more of an excuse than we do.  They just need more help that’s all.  The Bible says that all are sinners and all deserve death.  If someone is insane since birth does this mean he has an excuse before God?

That's an interesting question. It's related to a whole series of similar questions which involve theodicy, the Justice of God. I don't think it's a matter of having an excuse but a matter of judgment, which only God can do because only God knows all. Anything less than all is inadequate information to make a judgment. This is why in the New Testament Jesus tells us not to judge that we not be judged.

Love and peace,

Nicole

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Jesus is part of the one love, as we all are.

Jesus...man or god...

Jesus… man or god… What a question. Alright well. It's my belief that Jesus was just a man who understood the ways of the universe a little bit better than we do. He may have been sent to us by a higher power? He may have been a great teacher, yes. Some one who could tell us what would happen if we did not abide by the golden rule of Karma. And he gave us a few ideas that will help us to lead a richer life. (some of those ideas were sorely misconstrewed along the way.)

But nevertheless he was a man. Not a god. Or so I like to think. The following he gathered was nothing short of god like. But can we not say that about other martyrs whos ideas were so well liked that general society decided to use them in everyday living. The only difference is their ideas were not made into religions right?

I'm not christian so what I think about Jesus is a bit void. I do believe he was a good man who taught us somethings that every human being needs to know. People in those days were afraid of revolutionary ideas, like maybe orgies and murder were not the best way to go. But really. Would a god let a human crucify him for such a silly reason. I don't think so. And for that matter are we really as “saved” as we were so many years ago. Are we still not as savage and dark minded a species on the whole. Only now we've got a devil to blame it on.

But that's just my opinion. :)

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thanks, cat, for sharing your views! and thanks too, bluewater, one love, yes!

light and peace,

nicole

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Thank you Bjorn for answering these questions for me…I do appreciate this and I do feel like I'm learning a lot from all of these discussions.

You said, “Jesus brings unprecedented joy and salvation to the story.” What story? Do you mean some overarching story of life in general?

So, Buddha outlined the disciplines we need to life a pure life. What happens when we don’t? What is the way of salvation that Buddhism promises?

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Hi Chase, yes the story of life, as far back as we can know.

I won't even start to try to explain Buddhism. That one you have to find out for yourself. But a good book to start with, if you send for it, is; “The Life of the Buddha”, a compilation of Pali scriptures by Bhikkhu (monk) Nanamoli. It outlines the life story and teachings of the Buddha in its most original version. Published by Buddhist Publication Society, Kandy, P.O. Box 61, Sri Lanka. If you're not used to Buddhist and Hindu writings it will be hard going at first but stay with it and over years you'll pick it up.

You know, as we sow, so shall we reap. Seek truth and you will find. Do good and cultivate your understanding.

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Hi Chase, Here it is: The Life of the Buddha

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Hello again, thank you Darren for your explantions they very intreging. It's really nice to see someone explain things in a postitve manner. It also nice to learn that tidbit about Noah's son. It's a relief to actually know that someone from that era actually became a High Priest. One would think that those people would have to start the world over and survive.  I jsut wonder that if the sleeper is really Jesus waiting on me to dream him out in to existence than why do I need to dream my life into what its supposed to be? Aren't we already predestined to become what we were made to be? Isn't every hair already counted, doesn't that make every dream already counted and if they are already counted why would we need to dream him into existince? In this journey of life, my very deep core is screaming not claim myself as God or a Goddess. Is it not wrong to acknowledge this?
I am comfortable to say I was there to help the creation grow but to say that I am the Creator sounds a little taboo. Isn't that what the commandments meant when they say “Put no idol before me”? Have you heard the song that says”I'm looking at you through the glass. So much time has passed,Oh, God it feels like forever, and forever is me sitting all alone inside your head!” This song has helped me picture the Lord watching over me and if I take what you're saying. Does that mean if we do not except Jesus, the sleeper, that He is alone iside our head's?
I respect those that consider Jesus as just a man because He could not become God until He was a man. I am positive that during His journey and revelation of who he was and what he was to do  was very depressing. As many others He loved all who would hear. He got atteched to all who he helped see. I beleive it was not the pain of the tourcher that he recieved that hurt Him the most. I beleive that it was the pain of the people that did not believe, who laughed at him, who called him names and spat on him as he made his way to his ulitament sacurfice on their behalf. He knew the porpuse of his mission, I'm sure he felt honored for the assignment before him, yet He grew afraid and depressed, just as any human would. The lesson I learned from watching this honorable mission is that no matter who we are, we have our assignments in some way, which, can be frightening , depressing and heartbreaking if we failed. His sacurfice shows me that if he still completed his assignment through this all that we all can  face and gratefully place our faith in that if he did it we can too. Nothing is to great or small. I am grateful to know that he recieved his reward in heaven on becoming God. That has me holding onto the faith that I too will recieve a Crown of Glory.
I want to apologize also for mentioning 2012. There was a question on why this has to do with the Christian perpective. I'd like to share that I have personally, heard a pastor from Caliafornia, on the radio in Alabama, say that Jesus will be here Dec. 21 2012 and that five months before this trubulation starts. I have also been told of some churches actually being taught of such things. Here on this gaia site I ran across A highly renowed pyhicist who stated that he is very honored to live in this time and day because we are evoling from a ground zero to a galatic one society, yet in their studies of the planets in this galaxy shows none have made from ground zero to 1. There is also studies that say that about 2012 the planets are to align and that the Milkyway and the Earth will come to the end of their routations. So were does that leave the Mayan calendar? Who knows? I just know that I am a survivour and according to what the Holy Spirit has been contuiously showing me for years is that there will be a remmant no matter what may or may not happen.
May we all be part of this remmant. To be blessed with crowns of Glory and honored to be part of the Lord's great plan of salvation. Ginlei

Re: Jesus...man or god...

thanks, ginlei, no apology needed, bless you,

nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Nicole:

Don't worry you didn't offend me.  It would have to take a lot to offend me.  Another word of encouragement/compliment is that I do admire how well you write your responses.  You are very articulate.
 
1) I thank you for your links you gave me as well.  (FYI one big citation to Wayne Gurdem's Systematic Theology for the rest of this post)

Enough of that nice stuff (j/k).  I still haven't looked at much beyond what you “linked” to me about the JEPD stuff, sorry about that (there aren't too many good excuses that can be named but I figured school is a good one).  So, what I'm about to say may be answered by the theory so I apologize ahead of time.  Now, the Bible is a bit different that a Wiki article.  I don't know of too many Wiki articles that claim inspiration by God himself or claim to be the words of God himself.  There are several different meanings for “the Word of God” that is used in the Bible.  They are the person of Jesus Christ, personal address, speech through human lips, and the written form.  What I feel like is being spoken of here (in this discussion) mostly is the written form.  An example would be in Exodus 31:18, “And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God” (Deut. 31:9-13; Josh. 24:26; Jer. 30:2).  Also, in the NT Jesus said in John 14:26, “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit,  whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”  Jesus had promised that the Holy Spirit would remind the disciples of the words spoken of by Jesus.  Paul also says to the Corinthians, “If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord” (I Cor. 14:37).  So the things written down by these men were directly from God.  In fact I think these words are to be considered as God's own words.  They are still absolutely authoritative and absolutely true.  In fact from I Cor. 14:37 to disobey or disbelieve the Word of God is going against God's own command.  Also, you are correct when you said that Paul was referring to the OT in 2 Tim. 3:16.  But we must say that Paul is saying that all of the OT was God inspired (Luke 24:25, 27, 44; Acts 3:18; Rom. 15:4).  There are at least two places in the NT where the NT is described as scripture along side the OT as well.  In 2 Peter 3:16, “as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.”  Here Peter is talking of Paul's writings as in the same category as the OT.  Secondly in 1 Tim. 5:18, “For the Scripture says,  ‘You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and,   ‘The laborer deserves his wages'” Paul refers to the words of Jesus as scripture too.  So from this I do believe that all of the Bible is inspired by God and is authoritative and true.  I must admit though that these are not definitive 100% proofs.  Wayne Grudem says, “Our ultimate conviction that the words of the Bible are God's words comes only when the Holy Spirit speaks in and through the words of the Bible to our hearts and gives us an inner assurance that these are the words of our creator speaking to us.”  So the words of scripture are self attesting. 

I think we can agree that God does not lie (2 Sam. 7:28; Titus 1:2; Heb. 6:18) and that God's word are the ultimate standard of truth (John 17:17).  What we do not agree on is that scripture claims to be completely true and without error (Num. 23:19; Ps. 12:6, 119:89, 96; Prov. 30:5; Matt. 24:35).  I think in an earlier post you said, “I believe it's inspired, but I have studied it for many years, and to my understanding there are many aspects of it that cannot be harmonized with other parts of it, as well as things written from a limited historical/cultural perspective that we know now are simply wrong.”  I don't think I fully know what you mean here without specifics but I'll try my best to respond here.  I think maybe some problems with harmonizing could be that the Bible sometimes uses ordinary language.  For example if there were roughly 6,000 people at a basketball game it would not be wrong of me to report to someone that 6,000 people were at a b-ball game if in fact there were 5,999 or 6096 etc.  Also, the same can be said for things like measurements.  I can say that I live a mile from school or 1.233456 miles from school or I don't live far from school.  All of these are accurate statements just with a degree of approximation.  So, inerrancy has to do with truthfulness not with precision.  Another harmonizing “problem” could be with quotes.  In our culture when we put something in quotes it is a direct quotation.  When the Bible was written in Greek there were no quotation marks so to accurately quote someone else all you had to do was stay true to the content of what the person said, which is similar to our culture's indirect quotations.  So to the second part of your response (historical/cultural perspective) I will say that God is supreme over human language.  God can use human language to communicate without error without having to affirm any false ideas held at the time of the authors.  Also, if God knew these falsities at the time then that challenges our idea that God does not lie to us because God knows all and is in fact the truth. 

Yes, I think it is true that we may or may not see all of the truths of scripture at once.  But I don't think means that there is more than one interpretation.  Many blind men can feel a tail or an ear of the elephant and not know what it truly is.  But because the Bible is the truth, the absolute truth if “blind” people start groping around the Bible they will see absolute truth and not just parts of the truth.  For again I think God inspired the word (either by spoken word, prophecy etc.) and all of the word is truth.  I think because we are sinful imperfect humans that does not change the fact that the Bible is unchanging and perfectly truthful. 

2) I don't know if I've ever heard some of those “definitions” of grace, faith etc.  They are very interesting and I'm glad I asked that question.  Grace to me is Jesus Christ dying on a cross for people who deserve nothing better than eternal punishment.  Faith is a gift from God.  I think how it works is this: putting your trust in Jesus as savior and Lord of your life.  Salvation is that most wonderful benefit of grace and faith.  I believe it is attainable in one moment but also serves in continually sanctifying us throughout our lives.  After salvation we are working towards perfection in Christ that will be completed upon entry into glory.

3) You said, “This is why in the legal system it isn't just a matter of what people say but independent evaluation by professionals.”  I think the problem with this statement though is that in the end it is just a matter of what the professionals say.  If a professional says that a man is insane and shouldn't be punished as he ought is a matter of his opinion (professional though it is).  You are correct it isn't just a matter what people say, it is a matter of what is right and what is wrong.  If someone does something that is wrong it is wrong no matter what state of mind he may be in.  Furthermore, I think it can be said sin makes people irrational.  In fact sin itself is irrational.  An insane person who murders is irrational.  A sane person who murders is irrational.  Both have no excuse for what was done. 

Re: Jesus...man or god...

here is a wiki link to the nephilim……..

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Hi Andrew, I believe for a FACT that God is real. I have proven fact that God is real. Proven to me TONS of times. I believe that people want God to show Himself in their own way, that when God does reveal Himself.. they miss Him completely. I believe for a FACT that Jesus is God incarnate. But people are humans and can't possibly can't wrap their minds around that so they throw it out the window.

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Dear Lauren, Belief can be so strong it feels unshakeable but we know from the Bible it is still faith, and a gift of God. It's good to have a strong faith, and it's also good to understand that it's ok that not everyone looks at it the same way.

Dear Andrew, thanks for the links and continuing to provide balance to the discussion.

Dear Chase,

Thanks, you're very bright and articulate too.

Again, no rush on the JEPD stuff. Whenever you have a chance.

Yes, the Bible is different from a Wiki article. Bad example. Now, let's use the Tanach as an example of inspired Scripture, that one group (today's devout Jews) believe to be 100% inspired of God. Now, devout Christians also believe it to be 100% inspired of God. But if you look at the way Christians and Jews interpret the same texts, you see huge differences. Jews will walk around with t'fillin and so on from their interpretations while Christians will not.

Or another example - The Koran. You and I are not Muslims but devout Muslims believe it to be the inspired word of God, our God we worship. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. There are things in the Koran I believe are true and inspirational and there are other things I do not resonate with. Does that make it clearer, what I am trying to say about interpretation and inspiration?

I think in an earlier post you said, “I believe it's inspired, but I have studied it for many years, and to my understanding there are many aspects of it that cannot be harmonized with other parts of it, as well as things written from a limited historical/cultural perspective that we know now are simply wrong.”  I don't think I fully know what you mean here without specifics but I'll try my best to respond here. 

I could give you many web links but this one is useful because it shows the internal difficulties of inerrancy http://www.freethoughtdebater.com/tenbiblecontradictions.htm

2) I don't know if I've ever heard some of those “definitions” of grace, faith etc.  They are very interesting and I'm glad I asked that question.  Grace to me is Jesus Christ dying on a cross for people who deserve nothing better than eternal punishment.  Faith is a gift from God.  I think how it works is this: putting your trust in Jesus as savior and Lord of your life.  Salvation is that most wonderful benefit of grace and faith.  I believe it is attainable in one moment but also serves in continually sanctifying us throughout our lives.  After salvation we are working towards perfection in Christ that will be completed upon entry into glory.

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Sorry for not reading this entire post it's kinda long….

BUT I have heard most of this stuff over and over again..
The thing is god IS love doesn't have or feel love god IS LOVE…. Love forgives ….it hopes ALL things endures ALL things love is pretty neat.
But if everybody knew JUST HOW good love was it might make them lazy. God will save every man woman and child no one will be lost. OK so they may have a bit of a hard job getting there. It might not be easy sailing straight in to heaven. But no body looses. Everyone makes it.

If that information was made public people would become lazy stop trying it is dangerous for people to know god TOO well they might take advantage of gods love. Abuse gods undeserved kindness. So we get the fundies preaching gloom doom and destruction. But only really for the benefit of the psychopaths who might abuse gods love and kindness.

But lets not forget about FAITH …..only true faith can reveal true love so if you truly DON'T believe in gods love for EVERYONE it's because YOU ARE ONE OF THOSE god is keeping it secret from. Only true faith reveals true knowledge of god.

Thank god for that.

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Thanks, DPI, yes, Love is amazing, Love is the reason we are all here talking about all this, and I am so so thankful for God's Love! It makes everything worthwhile,

Light and peace,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Dear Nicole, Yes my faith is very strong.. but it's strong because God has proven Himself to be faithful over and over again. God has shown Himself to me in a most real way. My sister had 3 fractures in her leg and while we were on a missions trip in Mexico, a pastor prayed over her and she was healed. My sister went from having to use crutches and her friends carring her around to jumping and running around. Things are never a coincodence(i think i spelled that wrong) but they happen for a reason. God reveals Himself in those times. And yes it is ok to let others think differently then I, but when I know something is truth, I'm not going to sit back, twiddling my thumbs. God has put us in charge to tell the truth.. and there is only ONE TRUTH. Not fifty million. So when I stand before God.. I know that I did everything I could to say the right thing.

Re: Jesus...man or god...

That is glorious, that your sister was healed like that! Thanks for sharing that,

Hugs,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Nicole:

Now, I don't know what a “t'fillin” is but the fact that Jews will have different things on the outside that make them different from Christians isn't really that big a deal to me.  The thing is I agree that Christians and Jews both see the OT as scripture, the problem is the NT.  The way we look at the OT in light of the NT is drastically different than they would look at it without the NT.  They do not believe the entire Bible is the word of God.  That is the major problem with their interpretation compared to ours.  So a Jew does not believe Jesus is the Christ.  That will make they way they interpret the Bible in a completely different way than me.

I do not know much about Islam but from what I do know there are huge differences between the Koran and the Bible.  (Note: like I said I don't know much about this subject so if I am wrong about something please correct me).  From what I know unlike the Bible the Koran has no authentic document that can witness to its literary reliability or to its historical authenticity.  I think Muslims claim the Koran has come to perfect the Bible by adding to it which clearly contradicts what the Bible says about itself (Deut. 4:2 says, “You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you.”  I don't think that Allah is the same God of the Bible either.  Allah is not a covenant-making God.  He is seen as a master of deception and contradicts himself but justifies that by calling it abrogation.  So, I don't think the Koran is an inspired word of God because I don't think God is revealed in it at all.  (Again all of this is from a limited knowledge so if I'm wrong don't worry about offending me just let me know so I can correct my thinking).

If I still do not see what you are saying about interpretation and inspiration I'm sorry and don't stop trying to let me see your point!

I think the author of that article makes some assumptions that I think to be false.  This website brings some them out…
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/bible.htm#19

2)  What if someone's approach to the concept of grace goes against yours?  I may have already asked a question like this before but I'm just wondering what you think about this specific case.  So, does a contradictory approach to the concept of grace cause a problem to you or no?

3)   I think my question might still stand.  If someone's interpretation of the Bible is different than yours and this person's interpretation allows him/her to do something like steal, on what moral grounds do we have to punish him/her? 

4) Yes, it is true that all either are or were irrational when it came to sin.  But the kicker is if we believe in our hearts and confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and savior we have done away with our old self (the irrational self) and put on a new self no longer enslaved to sin (or our old irrationality).  That doesn't mean we are perfect and that we don't fall into sin (or irrationality) ever again it just means that we are able to resist and fight it now.  So, before we are regenerated or born again we are totally depraved and unable to do good in God's sight. 

Also, I feel like I ask you a lot more questions than you ask me.  If you have any please keep asking them.

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Dear Chase,

Now, I don't know what a “t'fillin” is

should have written Tefillin

but the fact that Jews will have different things on the outside that make them different from Christians isn't really that big a deal to me.  The thing is I agree that Christians and Jews both see the OT as scripture, the problem is the NT.  The way we look at the OT in light of the NT is drastically different than they would look at it without the NT.  They do not believe the entire Bible is the word of God.  That is the major problem with their interpretation compared to ours.  So a Jew does not believe Jesus is the Christ.  That will make they way they interpret the Bible in a completely different way than me.

There is that. However, there are many other differences that have more to do with a deeper understanding of the culture, etc.

I do not know much about Islam but from what I do know there are huge differences between the Koran and the Bible.  (Note: like I said I don't know much about this subject so if I am wrong about something please correct me).  From what I know unlike the Bible the Koran has no authentic document that can witness to its literary reliability or to its historical authenticity.  

here for a very interesting article on some of the questions and inherent dangers of questioning authenticity

I think Muslims claim the Koran has come to perfect the Bible by adding to it which clearly contradicts what the Bible says about itself (Deut. 4:2 says, “You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you.” 

Wouldn't that apply to the New Testament, though?

I don't think that Allah is the same God of the Bible either.  Allah is not a covenant-making God.  He is seen as a master of deception and contradicts himself but justifies that by calling it abrogation.  So, I don't think the Koran is an inspired word of God because I don't think God is revealed in it at all.  (Again all of this is from a limited knowledge so if I'm wrong don't worry about offending me just let me know so I can correct my thinking).

That's ok, many Christians don't know much about the Koran.

If I still do not see what you are saying about interpretation and inspiration I'm sorry and don't stop trying to let me see your point!

No worries :) I don't expect we will agree, and that's ok!

I think the author of that article makes some assumptions that I think to be false.  This website brings some them out…
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/bible.htm#19

Thanks.

2)  What if someone's approach to the concept of grace goes against yours?  I may have already asked a question like this before but I'm just wondering what you think about this specific case.  So, does a contradictory approach to the concept of grace cause a problem to you or no?

Not at all. I feel very comfortable with the idea of people disagreeing with me, after all, every one in the world has different views than I, so after 43 years I have grown used to it. :) I may be wrong, after all. I am a fallible human.

3)   I think my question might still stand.  If someone's interpretation of the Bible is different than yours and this person's interpretation allows him/her to do something like steal, on what moral grounds do we have to punish him/her? 

Legal punishment is on legal grounds, not moral ones. We do not live in a theocracy. If we did, no doubt there would be strictures that were agreed upon that had to be followed, regardless of individuals' different interpretations.

4) Yes, it is true that all either are or were irrational when it came to sin.  But the kicker is if we believe in our hearts and confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and savior we have done away with our old self (the irrational self) and put on a new self no longer enslaved to sin (or our old irrationality).  That doesn't mean we are perfect and that we don't fall into sin (or irrationality) ever again it just means that we are able to resist and fight it now.  So, before we are regenerated or born again we are totally depraved and unable to do good in God's sight. 

So, an unsaved person who saves the life of someone or feeds the hungry or does other good is not seen by God to have done anything good? Whereas the same acts by a Christian are good in the sight of God?

Also, I feel like I ask you a lot more questions than you ask me.  If you have any please keep asking them.

Well, I just asked two :) I'm not shy, I will ask if I have any more. But you see, we are very different, you and I. My goal in starting and maintaining this pod is not to convince people of the truth of what I believe. It is to provide and keep a safe place where questions can be asked and beliefs shared in a spirit of mutual respect. You have maintained a beautifully respectful approach in all your asking, for which I thank you.

Love and light,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Hello agaon everyone! Good moring ,good moring,good moring beautiful people. May this day bring us true enlightenment.
I just want to touch on the subject of interrpation.
Last night, my girls and I had a slumber party in my room. The girls ages are 9,10,and 11. The 11 yr old seems as she is already a teenager yet she as little girl tenedaces, the nine yr old is already too old and the middle child still plays w/ her invisible freinds. They have had a rough so far and my friend adpoted them along w/ their three older siblings. The three oldest are w/ my friends ex-husband. The oldest girl, 15, comes over after school. She has confided inme that there are teenagers speaking of 2012 and it scares her. I informed her of my interrpation of this event. I informed her that no matter what there is nothing to be afraid of and that if anything is to happen we must face it right on.Needless to say we have discussed this topic w/ the younger ones. No need to scare anyone when any plan of the Lords' was already written before creation. I am a survivor and am ready to teach others that they are survivors also. Jesus already gave us this eternial example.
I bring up the girls because I read them bible stories out of a book that they had. I should of read the book frist before I started read. The very frist story had a twist in it I was not expecting. You would think a child's book of bible stories would be stay strictly to the word, right? It says that the moon, the stars, and the earth was not the frist thing the creator made. It does not give that the creation was created in seven days.It looks to me that they are speaking of evlotution but using the bible has the basis of this interpertation.
I have no problem w/ this, it was just shocking, to have my belief's in this book that has been in the children's room! I feel, that when we teach children the truth to our best ablilites that they should feel as they can choose their own interperation. As it was said earlier the real truth is out there and it is up to us to realize this truth but how do we inform children our findings and interperation w/ out harming their growth and journey? Are we involved in their lives to help broarden their perspective or must we stit back and let them form their own opinpions. I believe that their own opinpion is very important but how do we gear them toward the truth w out pressing our findings on them? Just something that has me wondering.

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Excellent question. I think it's natural for us to teach our children what we fervently believe. In the end they will form their own opinions which may or may not agree with ours. We can feel secure that they too are in the hands of God.

Love and light,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Nicole:
1) What are some cultural differences?  I don't really know much about the Jewish faith either for that matter.

2) I feel if the Koran was really a book that was added to the Bible and inspired by God himself it wouldn't make allowance for such violence to people who disagree with it.  Granted there are people who did and do do those things for the name of the Bible.  But I think the difference is the Bible does not condone violence as does the Koran.  For example I think there is a doctrine of the universality of Muhammad's message and mission.  This basically means Muslims are obligated to bring back all people to Islam and they are to do so by any means necessary (Sam Soloman, pg. 68,  Beyond Opinion). 

Here's a link (that I think) does a good job of contrasting Islam to Christianity and how these two worldviews are totally incompatible…

http://www.faithfacts.org/world-religions-and-theology/contrasting-christianity-and-islam

3) No, I do not think the NT applies to the adding of the scriptures argument for a couple of reasons.  First because Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would come down to help the disciples remember what he said  In the NT Jesus said in John 14:26, “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit,  whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”  Jesus had promised that the Holy Spirit would remind the disciples of the words spoken of by Jesus.  Paul also says to the Corinthians, “If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord” (I Cor. 14:37).  So the things written down by these men were directly from God.  In fact I think these words are to be considered as God's own words.  They are still absolutely authoritative and absolutely true.  In fact from I Cor. 14:37 to disobey or disbelieve the Word of God is going against God's own command.  In 2 Timothy 3:16 we must say that Paul is saying that all of the OT was God inspired (Luke 24:25, 27, 44; Acts 3:18; Rom. 15:4).  Second, the NT makes claims that it is scripture as well.  There are at least two places in the NT where the NT is described as scripture along side the OT as well.  In 2 Peter 3:16, “as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.”  Here Peter is talking of Paul's writings as in the same category as the OT.  Secondly in 1 Tim. 5:18, “For the Scripture says,  ‘You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and,   ‘The laborer deserves his wages'” Paul refers to the words of Jesus as scripture too.  So from this I do believe that all of the Bible is inspired by God and is authoritative and true.

4) Well, I'm glad that you feel OK about people disagreeing with you (especially in my case).  But I must say I'm OK with people disagreeing with me but I do feel it is my moral obligation to try and persuade them (especially when it comes to the doctrines of redemption and as graciously and lovingly as I possible can).  I don't know if you consider this wrong or not but that is how I feel.  I am too a fallible human…but I do believe in an infallible God to help me out. 

5) It is true that we do not live in a theocracy.  But my next questions is, on what grounds are legal grounds based on?  Are they not based on an absolute moral standard?  An absolute moral standard founded in God?

And thanks again for answering all of my questions…

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Dear Chase,

Nicole:
1) What are some cultural differences?  I don't really know much about the Jewish faith either for that matter.

That's exactly my point. It's quite typical for Christians to know very little about the culture or faith of the people from whence we sprang, in terms of the development of our religion. Jesus, or Yeshua as he was called in his language, was a Jew, and not to understand that religion and culture means that the Scriptures are read and understood is out of context.

2) I feel if the Koran was really a book that was added to the Bible and inspired by God himself it wouldn't make allowance for such violence to people who disagree with it.  Granted there are people who did and do do those things for the name of the Bible.  But I think the difference is the Bible does not condone violence as does the Koran.  For example I think there is a doctrine of the universality of Muhammad's message and mission.  This basically means Muslims are obligated to bring back all people to Islam and they are to do so by any means necessary (Sam Soloman, pg. 68,  Beyond Opinion). 

Here's a link (that I think) does a good job of contrasting Islam to Christianity and how these two worldviews are totally incompatible…

http://www.faithfacts.org/world-religions-and-theology/contrasting-christianity-and-islam

Thanks, my point wasn't that I believe the faith are compatible because of course they are not. It was that many people believe their Scriptures are the inspired ones. But we can't all be right. And we can't be sure who is wrong.

3) No, I do not think the NT applies to the adding of the scriptures argument for a couple of reasons.  First because Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would come down to help the disciples remember what he said  In the NT Jesus said in John 14:26, “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit,  whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.”  Jesus had promised that the Holy Spirit would remind the disciples of the words spoken of by Jesus.  Paul also says to the Corinthians, “If anyone thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that the things I am writing to you are a command of the Lord” (I Cor. 14:37).  So the things written down by these men were directly from God.  In fact I think these words are to be considered as God's own words.  They are still absolutely authoritative and absolutely true.  In fact from I Cor. 14:37 to disobey or disbelieve the Word of God is going against God's own command.  In 2 Timothy 3:16 we must say that Paul is saying that all of the OT was God inspired (Luke 24:25, 27, 44; Acts 3:18; Rom. 15:4).  Second, the NT makes claims that it is scripture as well.  There are at least two places in the NT where the NT is described as scripture along side the OT as well.  In 2 Peter 3:16, “as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.”  Here Peter is talking of Paul's writings as in the same category as the OT.  Secondly in 1 Tim. 5:18, “For the Scripture says,  ‘You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and,   ‘The laborer deserves his wages'” Paul refers to the words of Jesus as scripture too.  So from this I do believe that all of the Bible is inspired by God and is authoritative and true.

Yes, I see that. My question was only wondering how one could have it both ways - it seems that logically speaking, if the Scriptures were complete with the Old Testament and not to be added to, then there wasn't a need for the New Testament. If they weren't complete then there seems to be a contradiction… But it's ok. We can leave this be.

4) Well, I'm glad that you feel OK about people disagreeing with you (especially in my case).  But I must say I'm OK with people disagreeing with me but I do feel it is my moral obligation to try and persuade them (especially when it comes to the doctrines of redemption and as graciously and lovingly as I possible can).  I don't know if you consider this wrong or not but that is how I feel.  I am too a fallible human…but I do believe in an infallible God to help me out. 

I understand how you feel. I too was once an evangelical Christian and constantly felt the pressure of having to help people get saved. Now, I am confident that God is perfectly able to take care of all of our salvation without my help - my job is to live a life of love for God and others, and that is a full time job.

5) It is true that we do not live in a theocracy.  But my next questions is, on what grounds are legal grounds based on?  Are they not based on an absolute moral standard?  An absolute moral standard founded in God?

Ideally. But we live in a secular society so there may be significant drift from moral standards founded in God.

Light and peace,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

As I understand Jesus' teachings, he was both (hu)man (physical in nature) and divine (spiritual in nature). While he referred to himself as both Son of God and Son of Man, it is equally true that he referred to everyone else as Sons and Daughters of God and Sons and Daughters of Man, which indicates to me that he understood all human beings to be both spiritual and physical in nature and, therefore, brothers and sisters in the human chain.

“Does it not say in your law, I have said you are gods?”

John 10:33-34
www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2010:33-34;&version=31;

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Thanks, lorel, indeed, that is a quote very germane to our discussion,

peace,

nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

You know I believe I will pass on being a god, but just hang out here with the other humans.

I do believe that you have taken that passage and used it out of context here.


frances

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Hmmm…I'm not so sure it is out of context since he also said:

“Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” (John 14:10)

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.” (John 14:12).

Seems to my limited interpretation that He is saying that the miracles He performed are of God as God is in Him as He is in God (the one and the many). Believe in that and perform greater miracles, as God is in ALL.

But, I'm no biblical scholar. It just seems logical….

Thanks,
mike S

Re: Jesus...man or god...

You may not be a biblical scholar, but I'd say you have that one nailed, Mike!

Peace, angel,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

“god” in this passage refers to our divine natures, as I understand it. Obviously, there is also an aspect of human nature that isn't so divine (which I believe is firmly rooted in the ego), but that's neither here nor there. :)

As Mike suggested, so do I believe. That is exactly the context in which Jesus meant it to be understood. Spirituality is about growth, transformation and transcendence… from the inside out, imho.

Intending no offense to the sensibilities of others (we each must walk our own paths), when one thinks of “God” as separate and apart, an “I-It” relationship is automatically created in the mind as Martin Buber suggested in his book “I-Thou”. Suddenly, we are viewing the subject of discussion as an “It” (from the outside), rather than utilizing an inward-outward viewpoint. This is the lens that I feel has been transposed in many branches of the Abrahamic religions.

The yogic greeting, Namaste, means “the Divine in me greets the Divine in you; the Spirit in Me meets the same Spirit in you”. This basic principle is also present in Judaism, Buddhism and every other “ism” I've studied. The imagery and symbolism are actually quite ubiquitous, which seems befitting of an omnipresent ground of Being.

Re: Jesus...man or god...

thanks, lorel, very helpful distinctions,

light and peace,

nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

1)  So basically one needs to be a scholar immersed in the Jewish language and culture to understand the Bible?  Or one has to be a Jew?  I'll admit parts of the Bible are not easy to understand.  2 Peter 3:15-16, “15And count(A) the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as(B) our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you(C) according to the wisdom given him, 16as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters.(D) There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction,(E) as they do the other Scriptures.”  But even in this passage Peter admits that only some passage were difficult (not impossible) to understand.  Peter is also writing this letter to churches dispersed in Asia so we still can't say that he was still only writing to Jews.  Psalm 19:7 says, “The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise(F) the simple…”  The law and testimony of the Lord makes “wise the simple.”  In Psalm 119:130 it says, “The unfolding of your words gives light; it imparts(A) understanding to the simple.”  Here the Hebrew word here used for “simple” is peti and it is not merely one who lacks intellectual ability, but one who lacks sound judgment, who prone to making mistakes, and who is easily lead astray.  God's word is so understanding even this type of person can know it and understand it.  Paul at the beginning of many of his letters write things like, “To the church of God which is at Corinth” and “To the churches at Galatia.”  I feel this means that Paul wrote this letter to all who were in the churches at the time male, female, slave, free, etc.  1 Cor. 1:13-14 says, “For we are not writing to you anything other than what you read and acknowledge[a] and I hope you will fully acknowledge- 14just as you did(A) partially acknowledge us-that(B) on the day of our Lord Jesus(C) you will boast of us as(D) we will boast of you.”  Paul says that he writes nothing that his readers cannot “acknowledge” or understand.  Now, we shouldn't think that 1st century Christians had it any easier than we do.  The NT epistles were written to churches who had large numbers of Gentile Christians who were relatively new Christians, who had no background in any kind of Christian society, and who had little or no prior understanding the history of the culture of Israel.  Nevertheless Paul, Peter, Jude etc. still showed no hesitancy to write these letters with expectations of Gentile Christians being able to read and understand what they wrote including OT scriptures (Rom.4:1-25; 15:4; 1 Cor. 10:1-11; 2 Tim. 3:16-17).  So, I do not believe someone needs to be an expert in hermeneutics either to be able to understand the Bible. 

2)  No, we cannot be 100% sure who is right and wrong about their “inspired” texts.  But I must say the Bible has to be the one which has been attacked and scrutinized most by far.  This has been going on for years and years now.  And nothing new has really been said.  I feel if all “inspired” texts were to go through the testing the Bible is regularly going through we would see that the Bible is the only one that will stand.

3) Well, God had not quite revealed everything to the OT saints.  The NT was written because Deuteronomy no one could add to the law because God's law was perfect.  But God's salvation plan wasn't quite finished and the NT was written, I think, to tell us about the fulfillment about that salvation plan.

4) Well, I don't know why you changed your mind about being an evangelical but all I can say is that I don't necessarily feel pressure to get people saved.  I know you probably know this but I guess I'll say it anyway.  The Holy Spirit is the only being that can “get people saved.”  If someone starts thinking that they failed because a person they had just shared the gospel with didn't become a Christian they are being lied to by Satan himself.  We are to preach the gospel to everyone we possible can.  But remembering that we are only fallible humans and all the work is really in God's hands.  So, I don't think there is really any pressure to get people saved (if someone made you feel that way I apologize for that). 

5) You're right we are in a secular society and we may have begun drifting from his moral standard.  But that doesn't mean his moral standard has changed.  It is our job to try and correct society back to those moral standards that we are created with by God himself (Romans 1-2). 

6) I forgot to answer one of your previous questions.  You had asked, “So, an unsaved person who saves the life of someone or feeds the hungry or does other good is not seen by God to have done anything good? Whereas the same acts by a Christian are good in the sight of God?”  Romans 14:23 says, “Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.”  The horrible condition of man's heart will never be able to recognize it only in relation to other men.  Romans 14:23 makes it clear that our depravity is in relation to God primarily and the man second.  So, we're totally depraved in at least four senses.  Our rebellion against God is total (Rom. 3:9-10,18), in his total rebellion everything man does is sin (Rom. 14:23; Rom. 7:18), Man's inability to submit to God is total (Rom. 8:7-8) and our rebellion is totally deserving of eternal punishment (2 Thess. 1:6-9; Matt. 5:29).  Now, it should be noted here: Good has a broad range of meanings.  It is good that non-Christians don't murder people.  It is good that people will feed the poor and give to the needy.  What I am saying is that in relation to other humans these acts are “good” but in relation to God if these acts are not rooted in righteousness and faith and to the glory of God they are not “good.” 

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Dear Chase,

1)  So basically one needs to be a scholar immersed in the Jewish language and culture to understand the Bible?  Or one has to be a Jew? 

Not at all, but at least, IMO, to take some time to understand Jewish thought and culture.

I'll admit parts of the Bible are not easy to understand.  2 Peter 3:15-16, “15And count(A) the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as(B) our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you(C) according to the wisdom given him, 16as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters.(D) There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction,(E) as they do the other Scriptures.”  But even in this passage Peter admits that only some passage were difficult (not impossible) to understand. 

Well, Peter was a Jew, after all :) so he was steeped in the culture and teaching, and much closer in time and space and context to the Scriptures than we.

Peter is also writing this letter to churches dispersed in Asia so we still can't say that he was still only writing to Jews. 

He may have been projecting - since it was so clear and simple to him, he assumed it was so to others who had not his advantages.

Psalm 19:7 says, “The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise(F) the simple…”  The law and testimony of the Lord makes “wise the simple.”  In Psalm 119:130 it says, “The unfolding of your words gives light; it imparts(A) understanding to the simple.”  Here the Hebrew word here used for “simple” is peti and it is not merely one who lacks intellectual ability, but one who lacks sound judgment, who prone to making mistakes, and who is easily lead astray.  God's word is so understanding even this type of person can know it and understand it.  Paul at the beginning of many of his letters write things like, “To the church of God which is at Corinth” and “To the churches at Galatia.”  I feel this means that Paul wrote this letter to all who were in the churches at the time male, female, slave, free, etc.  1 Cor. 1:13-14 says, “For we are not writing to you anything other than what you read and acknowledge[a] and I hope you will fully acknowledge- 14just as you did(A) partially acknowledge us-that(B) on the day of our Lord Jesus(C) you will boast of us as(D) we will boast of you.”  Paul says that he writes nothing that his readers cannot “acknowledge” or understand.  Now, we shouldn't think that 1st century Christians had it any easier than we do.  The NT epistles were written to churches who had large numbers of Gentile Christians who were relatively new Christians, who had no background in any kind of Christian society, and who had little or no prior understanding the history of the culture of Israel.  Nevertheless Paul, Peter, Jude etc. still showed no hesitancy to write these letters with expectations of Gentile Christians being able to read and understand what they wrote including OT scriptures (Rom.4:1-25; 15:4; 1 Cor. 10:1-11; 2 Tim. 3:16-17).  So, I do not believe someone needs to be an expert in hermeneutics either to be able to understand the Bible. 

Of course there are many things we can understand from the Bible without knowing the original context. I'm not saying that nothing at all can be known without it.

2)  No, we cannot be 100% sure who is right and wrong about their “inspired” texts.  But I must say the Bible has to be the one which has been attacked and scrutinized most by far.  This has been going on for years and years now.  And nothing new has really been said.  I feel if all “inspired” texts were to go through the testing the Bible is regularly going through we would see that the Bible is the only one that will stand.

That could well be. I certainly have my doubts about, for example, the Book of Mormon holding up to any serious scrutiny - http://www.saintsalive.com/mormonism/bomproblems.htm

3) Well, God had not quite revealed everything to the OT saints.  The NT was written because Deuteronomy no one could add to the law because God's law was perfect.  But God's salvation plan wasn't quite finished and the NT was written, I think, to tell us about the fulfillment about that salvation plan.

4) Well, I don't know why you changed your mind about being an evangelical

It was a long slow process, many-factored.

but all I can say is that I don't necessarily feel pressure to get people saved.  I know you probably know this but I guess I'll say it anyway.  The Holy Spirit is the only being that can “get people saved.”  If someone starts thinking that they failed because a person they had just shared the gospel with didn't become a Christian they are being lied to by Satan himself.  We are to preach the gospel to everyone we possible can.  But remembering that we are only fallible humans and all the work is really in God's hands.  So, I don't think there is really any pressure to get people saved (if someone made you feel that way I apologize for that). 

No need to apologise. I don't blame anyone in particular, just in general that knowledge that a lot of people you know and love are going to go to hell unless they are saved can be tremendously stressful.

5) You're right we are in a secular society and we may have begun drifting from his moral standard.  But that doesn't mean his moral standard has changed.  It is our job to try and correct society back to those moral standards that we are created with by God himself (Romans 1-2). 

What do you think is the best way to correct society?

6) I forgot to answer one of your previous questions.  You had asked, “So, an unsaved person who saves the life of someone or feeds the hungry or does other good is not seen by God to have done anything good? Whereas the same acts by a Christian are good in the sight of God?”  Romans 14:23 says, “Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.”  The horrible condition of man's heart will never be able to recognize it only in relation to other men.  Romans 14:23 makes it clear that our depravity is in relation to God primarily and the man second.  So, we're totally depraved in at least four senses.  Our rebellion against God is total (Rom. 3:9-10,18), in his total rebellion everything man does is sin (Rom. 14:23; Rom. 7:18), Man's inability to submit to God is total (Rom. 8:7-8) and our rebellion is totally deserving of eternal punishment (2 Thess. 1:6-9; Matt. 5:29).  Now, it should be noted here: Good has a broad range of meanings.  It is good that non-Christians don't murder people.  It is good that people will feed the poor and give to the needy.  What I am saying is that in relation to other humans these acts are “good” but in relation to God if these acts are not rooted in righteousness and faith and to the glory of God they are not “good.” 

Yes, that is doctrinally true to the stream of the total depravity of humanity. Calvinistic.

Light and peace,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...Question The Book of Mormon

Wasn't the Book of Mormon inspired by Joseph Smith who was told by two angels to plow up a field and to find the tablets there that meant he was like a modern-day (during his time kind of cross between God and Moses)?

Does anybody know?

frances

Re: Jesus...man or god...Question The Book of Mormon

Hi Frances, a short history of Mormon beginnings and beliefs

http://www.truthnet.org/Christianity/Cults/Mormon7/

Re: Jesus...man or god...

1)  “He may have been projecting - since it was so clear and simple to him, he assumed it was so to others who had not his advantages.”  The statement by Peter in 3:15-16 is in context to an appeal to the teaching of Paul's letters, which Peter's readers had read and understood (2 Peter 3:15).  So, I just think that the Bible clearly states that most of it is understandable to average reader.

2) just in general that knowledge that a lot of people you know and love are going to go to hell unless they are saved can be tremendously stressful”  I'll agree with you that can be stressful.  But the plan of redemption is one of hope and not stress.  I think we need to remember that anyone can be saved (just look at Paul) and at any time (the thief on the cross was saved literally minutes before he died).  I can truly sympathize with you on that point because I know many many people who I wish would come to Christ, but that doesn't mean that I am going to stop ever telling the Good News of Christ crucified.  So, I would like this to be an encouragement for you not a criticism or anything like that. 

3) Well, I feel the more we show the love of Christ (which you most definitely advocate) will help.  But more importantly, it may sound childishly simple but, the gospel is the only thing that can save. 

4) Yup, I'm guilty.  I'm a Calvinist.  ;)

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Thanks, Chase. So, it looks like we have come to the end of our questions for now…

Peace,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Good morning everyone! How's the gospel these days? Just asking, Just asking. I ask because engrossing oneself into it can result in some really wierd emotions,such as: confusion,enlightenment, awe, anger and frustration. Which is way some say that the bible is The Living Word.
I personally,could not understand since I was a child. It was ssooo confusing to me. Over years of sorting things out for myself, I pleded my case of confusion to higher ups, who I've come to beleive as the Holy Spirit, The great spirit of truth. I was told by human authority figures to start at the beginning go through to the end. (I'd like to say I started at the end to the beginning but in reality I missed a whole lot in between. oooowoowoo, Am I gonna get in trouble?ha, I think not)For a long time, if I picked the word up, I could only get understanding of the scripture and (usually only) the verse that popped up out of the page and said aha here I am. I feel this the way the Holy Spirit taught me to listen and learn. Mediating on what was shown to me helped me change little things here and there in my life. A work in progess, at the time, and trust me I had many pop-quizes, exams and tests that have lead me to graduation. Now upon graduation I am pleased to share with all that the confusion does ease up and that true beleiveable, heartfelt revelation is on everyone's horizon! To everyone who is on their path of gradution, congrad's! May we be helpful to those who are beginning and catching up. May we all enjoy being chosen out of the world!(John 15:19)
I'd like to retort to whomever quoted john 10:33-34. I thank you for bringing this verse into play mainly for myself to remind me that before this actual saying, at the beginning of this chapter the Lord is speaking of The shepherd entering into the gate that  the watchman has opened for him. I believe that the Spirit Of Truth as been this watchman for me, for the Lord knows what gate I have been looking for and if my shepherd is there at the gate waiting for me, let me hear his voice. For this chapter goes on to say that we, sheep, know our Shepherd's voice for He calls us by name and lead's us out. But because our Father knows us he has given us authority(for we are human) to lay our lives down and we have the authority to pick it back up. That is way we are have been told repeatedly that we should be still and know who is God. I am glad to aslo know that my shepherd knows me by name, by voice, and that He has given me the promise that no one can snatch us out of his hand, or the Holy Father's hand. It does sadden me a bit that His own people wanted to stone him for this blashemy, just because He was a mere mortal does not mean he wasnot going to graduate to become our pyhiscal and humanly heavenly Father. For in chapter 15 of the same book He states plainly that he is the true vine and the Holy father is the gardener. We are the branches, to be pruned and no branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain IN the vine. I do wholeheartedly feel I can do nothing apart from Him and I am most joyfully refreshed that He chose me and mine to bear fruit that will last.
May we all find our shepherd's voice so that they may guide us to our feeding grounds.Amen.
Have a good day everyone, I hope you are feeling alright Darren. Be blessed. Ginlei

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Hi Ginlei,

Yes, it can be very distressing at times, these kinds of discussions can be frustrating. Hopefully here we can generate more light than heat for our readers… but it's a challenge.

Sadly Darren's profile has been deleted again, so he may not have received your message.

Thanks for sharing more about your path.

Hugs,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

“I thank you for bringing this verse (John 10:33-34) into play….”

“As long as a man stands in his own way, everything seems to be in his way.”

“[N]either death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God.” [Romans 8:38-39]

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Well said, lorel! indeed, hard to run … chuckling

Hugs,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Nicole:
It's been a couple days how are you? 

Anywho, I finally got around to reading up a little (key words “a little”) on that JEDP theory.  What I was wondering is what exactly you know about it and why do you think this theory is correct as opposed to the view that Moses wrote the Pentateuch.  From what I see so far there is good evidence on both sides. 

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Hi Chase,

I'm really well thanks!

Ah, good evidence for both sides… well it's like this. I know that
many people believe Moses wrote the Pentateuch, and I've seen some links on the internet about that, but there are several
factors that help me decide, taking everything into consideration, having thought it through over many years.

1) There's nothing in the first five books to indicate Moses' authorship.
It talks about God giving the commandments to Moses in the desert
but it says nothing about God explaining to Moses the Creation and all the book of beginnings. There are also parts referring to Moses' death and events afterward which he couldn't have written, and references showing that all these events happened quite some time ago. See here for many examples.

So, it makes sense to me that it was put together by many people over an unknown period of time. I see no problem with inspiration
having taken place over that whole process. God is not limited.

2) If that was the case, then the documentary hypothesis, along with
a number of other types of interpretation, become possible ways of approaching the Bible. There is a helpful link here which not only indicates the range of analytical tools but also the different attitudes scholars have wrt inspiration.

Light and peace,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

1)     I don’t doubt that you have looked into this for quite sometime but my question to you is I thought that most “higher critics” of the Bible denied supernatural revelation or inspiration?  Even though Wellhausen himself did not deny that OT writers may have received the Word from God, it seems to me that to hold some of the views that JEDP proponents hold you would have to deny inspiration fully.

You said, “There's nothing in the first five books to indicate Moses' authorship.”  But what about the many verses that do claim that he wrote most of the Pentateuch (I’m sure you know what most of them are)?  Though many of the examples you gave me were written in the third person that still doesn’t mean that he didn’t write them he could’ve easily dictated these things to a scribe.  Of course though when his death is spoken of he didn’t either write or dictate these things.  I believe when most scholars say that Moses is the author of the Pentateuch they mean he wrote all most all of the Pentateuch. 
2)   
I just find trouble seeing how someone (like yourself) can see the Bible as not inerrant and say with certainty that some parts of the Bible are absolutely true?  I think the range of tools that we have to analyze things is pretty vast and I think that is a very good thing.  But when we start, I guess, giving in to people’s claims that the Bible is contradictory or at least inconsistent than we are giving up our standard to judge what is important.  For instance sin.  How can we accurately live our lives without some absolute basis of what is right and wrong?  For instance salvation?  How can we accurately decide for ourselves what is the way to salvation?  For instance the purpose for life at all.  How can we know why in the world we are even on this planet in the first place?

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Dear Chase,


1)     I don’t doubt that you have looked into this for quite sometime but my question to you is I thought that most “higher critics” of the Bible denied supernatural revelation or inspiration?  Even though Wellhausen himself did not deny that OT writers may have received the Word from God, it seems to me that to hold some of the views that JEDP proponents hold you would have to deny inspiration fully.

Some do indeed deny inspiration fully. However, it does not necessarily follow that all who use historical-critical methods, which are the usual approaches at most theological seminaries throughout the world, do not believe the Bible is inspired. For example, NT Wright, Bishop of Durham, is considered relatively conservative in his theology, yet fearlessly uses historical-critical methods. He just takes a different approach with them - see Theology as History and Hermeneutics for a detailed analysis of Biblical inspiration and historical-critical methods, and a good overview of the first, second and third quests for the Historical Jesus.

You said, “There's nothing in the first five books to indicate Moses' authorship.”  But what about the many verses that do claim that he wrote most of the Pentateuch (I’m sure you know what most of them are)?  Though many of the examples you gave me were written in the third person that still doesn’t mean that he didn’t write them he could’ve easily dictated these things to a scribe.  Of course though when his death is spoken of he didn’t either write or dictate these things.  I believe when most scholars say that Moses is the author of the Pentateuch they mean he wrote all most all of the Pentateuch. 

Good, let's have a close look at these verses, shall we?

from http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_tora.htm

• Passages in the Pentateuch itself:
  • Exodus 17:14 ”Then the Lord instructed Moses, 'Write this down as a permanent record…'”
  • Exodus 24:4 ”Then Moses carefully wrote down all the Lord's instructions.”
  • Exodus 34:27 ”And the Lord said to Moses, 'Write down all these instructions, for they represents the terms of my covenant with you and with Israel.'”
  • Leviticus 1:1 ”The Lord called to Moses from the Tabernacle and said to him, 'Give the following instructions to the Israelites…'”
  • Leviticus 6:8 ”Then the Lord said to Moses, 'Give Aaron and his sons the following instructions…'”
  • Deuteronomy 31:9 ”So Moses wrote down this law and gave it to the priests.”
  • Deuteronomy 31:24-26 ”When Moses had finished writing down this entire body of law in a book…”

• Passages elsewhere in the Hebrew Scriptures:
  • Joshua 1:7-8 ”…Obey all the laws Moses gave you.”
  • Joshua 8:31-34 ”He followed the instructions that Moses the Lord's servant had written in the Book of the Law…”
  • Joshua 22:5 ”…obey all the commands and the laws that Moses gave to you.”
  • 2 Chronicles 34:14 ”…Hilkiah the high priest…found the book of the Law of the Lord as it had been given through Moses.”

• Passages in the Gospels which show that Jesus and John the Baptizer believed Moses to be the author:
  • Matthew 19:7-8 ”…why did Moses say a man could merely write an official letter of divorce and send her away?”, they asked. Jesus replied, 'Moses permitted divorce…'”
  • Matthew 22:24 ”Moses said, 'If a man dies without children…'”
  • Mark 7:10 ”For instance, Moses gave you this law from God…”
  • Mark 12:24 ”…haven't you ever read about this in the writings of Moses, in the story of the burning bush…”
  • Luke 24:44 ”…I told you that everything written about me by Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must all come true.”
  • John 1:17 ”For the law was given through Moses…”
  • John 5:46 ”But if you had believed Moses, you would have believed me because he wrote about me. And since you don't believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?”
  • John 7:23 ”…do it, so as not to break the law of Moses…”
• Passages elsewhere in the Christian Scriptures:
  • Acts 26:22 ”…I teach nothing except what the prophets and Moses said would happen…”
  • Romans 10:5 ”For Moses wrote…”

“But nowhere in the Bible is it specifically stated that Moses wrote the entire Pentateuch. Even if one believes in the inerrancy of the Bible, a case can be made that he authored only parts of the Torah, and that other writers added sections of their own and/or edited the resultant text.”' 

Re: Jesus...man or god...

“It is a challenge for any of us to live our lives and discern the correct moral choice in every instance, even if we have strong beliefs about right and wrong. Sooner or later, most of us get to situations where all that we have learned about right or wrong does not seem to help, and we have to rely on personal inspiration. No doubt, as we live our lives according to our faith and understanding, we will make mistakes. I am comforted by the wideness of God's mercy and grace.”

Wow!

Kudos on such a realistic and simplistically
profound observation…

Peace Wise Angel,
mike S

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Thanks, to another wise peace angel :)

Warm hugs,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou living water? Art thou greater than our father Jacob which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? Jesus Answered and said unto her…Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again. But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him…a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Yes…eternal hope, love and faith and salvation. But the children need some clean drinking water at this time too. Things are getting tougher.

Why not have both? Doesn't it make sense to bring the two 2gether?

:)

I don't think this moral choice is difficult to discern.

To have clean water to drink is a right. Morally and physically.

http://www.charitywater.org/birthdays/fundraiser/sept/edit

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Thanks so much, Janie, please keep this at the forefront of our attention, we need this kind of initiative so much in our world.

Love and hugs,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Nicole:

I will admit I am beginning to admire the work that “higher critics” of the Bible do to an extent.  I just sometimes fear (i.e. Welhaussen) that they make take things a bit too far.  I mean because this approach really came about during the rationalism period of the 19th century (correct me if I'm wrong here).  Because of this sometimes it takes a secular approach to the Bible which isn't necessarily a bad thing but like in Welhaussen's case can be be a bad thing.  Anywho, I must side with most conservative theologians in thinking that I do believe most of the Pentateuch was written by Moses (maybe compiled later by other people???  Gotta look into that more).

By the way how about the original question…Jesus man or God?  I don't even remember what you wrote about that, may I ask what your opinion on that is (again I guess)? 

Another question do you believe that we can find any universally true conclusion about anything?  Can we find any universally true conclusions about God from his Word?

Thanks again for answer my questions.  I feel you have been very patient and helpful to me and again I appreciate it a lot. 

P.S. You seem to be a fan of N.T. Wright?  I haven't read much that he's written but I have read a little about his “New Perspective on Paul” and I'm not sure if I totally agree with him on that but anywho…

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Hi Chase,

I will admit I am beginning to admire the work that “higher critics” of the Bible do to an extent.  I just sometimes fear (i.e. Welhaussen) that they make take things a bit too far.  I mean because this approach really came about during the rationalism period of the 19th century (correct me if I'm wrong here). 

Right, that's a good point. I believe in a more balanced approach too.

Because of this sometimes it takes a secular approach to the Bible which isn't necessarily a bad thing but like in Welhaussen's case can be be a bad thing.  Anywho, I must side with most conservative theologians in thinking that I do believe most of the Pentateuch was written by Moses (maybe compiled later by other people???  Gotta look into that more).

Indeed! It can be a fruitful research.

By the way how about the original question…Jesus man or God?  I don't even remember what you wrote about that, may I ask what your opinion on that is (again I gue