God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

A corrolary question to the discussion about the nature of Jesus. 

Go to any sermon on any Sunday, and you'll probably hear one of these two viewpoints discussed, fire and brimstone God of judgement, or unconditional loveing Graceful God.

Which way is God?  Does God have multiple personalities?  Did God's nature change from the Old Testament to the New Testament?

Re: God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

when i used to live on the streets before i had any christian type experiences i used to have a t-shirt that said 'j.c. is coming back and this time he's really pissed off'!lol

Re: God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

Thanks, Andrew, see my response to you below…

Dave! Oh my gosh, I have so missed you here. Thanks for dropping in and especially thanks for asking this question.

You have studied the Bible deeply and you know how many times in the Old Testament God shows up as the total judgment type, wiping out whole towns and civilisations, and of course in the Flood wiping out just about everyone because, the text said, God looked at the way people were and was sorry for creating us. Wow!

Yet throughout the Old Testament too God also shows up as love and forgiveness.

Similarly in the New Testament, you have the brimstone texts and people wailing and gnashing their teeth but also ! Corinthians 13 type of passage - beautiful unconditional love.

So, what is going on? Is God both judgment and grace? Both damning people to hell forever (we looked at this quite a bit in at least one earlier thread here) and forgiving everything?

Andrew, you must have loved that t-shirt! I can so see you wearing it :)

You ask a searching question about the most Christian nation being one of the most corrupt and violent. Well, this is a different but I agree somewhat related question. As humans we are very mixed - we have great good and beauty and creativity and also can do so much harm. Is this a case of “as above, so below”? Is our conflictedness from the divine? Or is it the reverse - that we have anthropomorphically spoken of God as like us, full of conflict?

Or… something else?

I invite your reflections.

Love,

Nicole

Re: God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

hi nicole, well it does seem at the very least that the mythic structures are very persistent! if jesus was teaching the concept of nonduality to those who couldn't really understand the idea than it would explain why he said that the poor you will have with you always. perhaps the best that we can hope for if nonduality is true is some kind of balancing mechanism. maybe there is as much goodness as evil here and it's all just a matter of perception. and perhaps also this is the way it will always be and that it couldn't really be any different as much as we may wish otherwise.

Re: God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

God brings neither judgment or grace and most likely has no involvement whatsoever in this thing we call “existence.” I imagine that once we realize that the only gift of God is BEING (I AM), and we added all the rest, will we then move closer to grace in the recognition that hell is of our making and NOT God's.

But I'm just saying…

Peace Angels,
mike S

Re: God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

Thanks Mike, but wouldn't you say the contribution of being is pretty central in terms of involvement in our existence? :)

Hugs,

Nicole

Re: God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

Thanks Mike, but wouldn't you say the contribution of being is pretty central in terms of involvement in our existence? :)

Absolutely. And it seems we have lost that centrality in terms of 'experience,' at least that is what many of the ancient and modern masters appear to proclaim. The I AM became entirely I AM that or this…
The paradox is that niether the 'I AM' or the 'I AM that' can be negated or nullified.

Interesting that you use the term “contribution” to describe the origination.

Peace Angel,
mike S

Re: God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

If God brings neither judgment or Grace, then where do they come from in the first place? 

Hell is of our own making?  I do not agree with you and I do not agree with you greatly.  I do not believe that we can even concieve of the violence or the lonliness of hell just as we cannot possibly concieve of the workings of God in our everyday life, that is unless we know Him personally.

Otherwise we are saying that God got bored one day, made people put them on this planet, decided to treat them like action figures, got bored again and let them fight it out amongst themselves….

Somehow I don't really buy that at all… God is the final judge of us all, and His judgment will come upon us all, some sooner than others.  As far as grace goes, well, we are still breathing and for most of us that is a lot more than we really deserve.

frances

Re: God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

“Hell is of our own making?  I do not agree with you and I do not agree with you greatly.  I do not believe that we can even concieve of the violence or the lonliness of hell just as we cannot possibly concieve of the workings of God in our everyday life, that is unless we know Him personally.”

But Frances, you have already described 'hell' in a previous thread. You wrote: ”The people of Zimbabwe are starving; inflation in that country is incredible - up to the rates of millions of a percent.  They cannot afford to even buy the basics, not even grain to make their daily ration of bread.  They are leaving their country by the handfuls, just up and walking away.”



“God is the final judge of us all, and His judgment will come upon us all, some sooner than others.  As far as grace goes, well, we are still breathing and for most of us that is a lot more than we really deserve.”

And I suppose if we feel that there are people that deserve less, we will continue to manufacture 'hell' in all its many and varied forms.

Peace Angels,
mike S

Re: God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

Mike,

You are grand at using words, but are you truly seeing their meanings?  These people are in need, are in extreme discomfort yes; hell?  No?

My post was placed to gather people who could help, perhaps point me in the right direction…. I know what it is like to be forced from one's home and to not be able to feed my family and to do without.  Hell? No. Discomfort? Yes.

I suppose everyone brings judgment upon themselves throughout their lives and yes, I do beleive what the Bible says about God judging the great and small alike, each according to their works.  But that is the path we all must someday walk, and each of us must answer for our own deeds, and for our own word.  Therefore each of us is equal in that state, none of us are lesser or greater.

Use my words anyway you please, sir.  I know the truth of my statement, and the true meaning of my words, for it appears as though we view the world and its makings through entirely different eyes and hearts and minds. 

May the God of Peace walk with you. 

frances

Re: God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

Dear Mike.

Thanks, I always enjoy the way you think and express yourself! Especially your humility in sharing and being open to other possibilities. Peace angel.

Dear Frances,

Thank you for your whole-hearted contributions.

There are more ways than one of looking at heaven and hell, and we have explored some of them in previous threads.

It's very relevant to this topic specifically and to our dialogue here that this Sunday in Anglican churches and others around the world which follow the common lectionary, we had the following readings:

Romans 14:5-12

Some judge one day to be better than another, while others judge all days to be alike. Let all be fully convinced in their own minds. Those who observe the day, observe it in honor of the Lord. Also those who eat, eat in honor of the Lord, since they give thanks to God; while those who abstain, abstain in honor of the Lord and give thanks to God.

We do not live to ourselves, and we do not die to ourselves. If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord; so then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died and lived again, so that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

Why do you pass judgment on your brother or sister? Or you, why do you despise your brother or sister? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God…

Matthew 18:21-35

Peter came and said to Jesus, “Lord, if another member of the church sins against me, how often should I forgive? As many as seven times?” Jesus said to him, “Not seven times, but, I tell you, seventy-seven times.

Re: God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

Here's a revelation I had one day about the subject, from Psalm 119:65 and on…

 65 Do good to your servant
       according to your word, O LORD.

 66 Teach me knowledge and good judgment,
       for I believe in your commands.

 67 Before I was afflicted I went astray,
       but now I obey your word.

 68 You are good, and what you do is good;
       teach me your decrees.

The startling revelation I received from this was in understanding that this Psalm expresses gratitude for having been afflicted, humbled, judged.  I was startled because I always believed that I wanted to be a Christian to escape judgement, but here's someone who is expressing grattitude for being judged.

Growth, learning, healing only happen when someone loves enough to tell us the truth. 

The judgement of God is the unconditional love of God, they are one and the same.  Its all about the truth. 

And the question of “who God is” has more to do with our subjective view and attitude than it does with God.  On difficult days, we may see God as a judge.  On days where we can clearly discern blessing, God appears as unconditional Love.  How we view God has more to do with us than with God. God is Judge, God is Love, God is One.

Re: God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

Dear Friends,

I am enjoying reading your posts and look forward to getting to know you better.  I wanted to add a little of my experience into te discussion here.
I experience God giving me precisely what I ask for, whether I am asking with consciousness or not - this is, of course, what we call karma, which gives us as feedback what we have created.  It would be a misunderstanding to label this as judgment; it is an opportunity to learn about where I am aware and obedient to the Life inside of me, and where I need to learn and act more in alignment.  I experience God loving me so much that I get to learn from the choices I have made, whether they have been loving choices or unguided ones.  I feel God's grace and mercy holding me when I feel remorse for choices I've made that have harmed other people or myself, both because I wasn't loving as my Father-Mother and because God is inside all of us.  At these times I experience God receiving my sadness and replacing it with hope and joy - and I make note to not do that thing again.  I feel God's goodness when I follow the word within and give to others, trusting that God protects me, instead of creating a mental maze to try to figure it out and try to orchestrate everything myself (this is my human judgment).  It's all about my experience, not at all about my concepts. 

Blessings,
Suzanna

Re: God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

To answer the question, yes God brings judgment and grace. In the old testament you will see time after time after time of God's judgment and wrath being poured out upon the people. I think what has changed now is the fact that Jesus took our wrath. When Jesus died on the cross God poured out His wrath for us onto Jesus. Jesus bore our wrath and judgment.. took it all. Now that's not to say that we don't get discipline here and there from God, cos we do. But God is waiting to pour out his judgment until the end times. And boy do I NOT want to be here on earth for that, cos that it is gonna be some crazy, sick, intense days.
Yes, God is grace and love and peace.. but he is also judgment and wrath and vengence. So if you're not getting what you “deserve” here and now for all the bad things you've been doing.. dude you better get a fear of God.. that's all I'm saying. You better get on your knees and repent. Cos you can say and do all the right things and say to yourself that God is merciful and loving, but when it comes down to it you had better have been repentful. God is just. Hell isn't some make believe place. It's real.. and you will be sent there if you don't have Jesus as your Savior. If you haven't repented for your sins. Yes, God is love.. but it's your own choice. God gives us all day to choose, so at the end of the day God is just. There's always a balance.

Re: God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

Dave, Suzanna, Elimgirl, many thanks for your contributions. We are always learning here,

Love,

Nicole

Re: God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

Elimgirl and all,

Perhaps God's Grace and God's Judgement are one and the same, manifestations of God's Love, viewed from different perspectives.

Dave

Re: God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

Dave, I am coming to believe more and more in Oneness of all - it's all a question of perspective!

Love,

Nicole

Re: God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

Dear friends,

God never never judges !  He is pure Love . All the energy around us is his pure Love. What Jesus did 2000 years ago was showing us the Love of God. We only have to do today what Jesus told us  in is time.
God loves every human like he is. He loves him if he is a very bad person or a very nice and loving person. He loves all the same. Because we are a part of God he loves all the same.He loves himself like we should.
If we want to get on with our life we have first to love our self like we are. Then we have to love our sisters and brothers the same.
Jesus sayd : Love your next like you love your self.
We are all One like Nicole believes.
What we call the hell is only what we get back on karma. For some people is hell here on earth and for some people is hell after they die. If you think in the moment of dieng you get in hell because you did something “bad”, you will get the hell in the astralworld. That is all.There is no real hell ! Only the church will tell us so because then the people will go to church confess and through that they have the people in her hands they will do as the church tells them.
I`m not anymore against the church becaus everything has a reason and so has the church. We have to learn through mistakes.If we wouln`t make mistakes we couldn`t learn.
And  one thing more.What we think is bad isn`t really bad. The universe doesn`t know good or bad.What we do or think we get back and that threefold or more.We are all responsible for our own life.

Love and Light

          Eckart

Re: God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

Thank you, Eckart! Makes me think of the contrast between U2 - One and
1 CORINTHIANS 13 - Ministerio Discipulos

Love,

Nicole

Re: God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

Thank you, Nicole

U2-One  I don`t understand my English isn´t that good but CORINTHIANS 13   is beautiful !

Love and Light

        Eckart

Re: God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

Eckart,

We need to understand the definition of Judgement in terms of Love.  Its not loving to allow people to continue to hurt themselves or others.  Love means stepping in, interposing, and saying “its time to  stop hurting yourself and others.”  That's judgement, and that's real love. 

I believe that hell is a painful process of change (i.e. healing) imposed upon people who cannot or will not change destructive behaviors on their own.  I also believe that these interpretations of judgement and hell are consistant with Christian Scripture.

Dave

Re: God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

Dear Dave,
I`m not so sure of stepping in or interposing. If somebody wants to kill an other person we should intervene of course.
But if there is a disput or quarrel going on all we should do is to cover all in Light and the violet flame of transformation.
You can`t change other people by talking. Only you yourself can change yourself. And then the people will see the change in or on you.
First of all we should show other people how to live right with love so other people can see there is an other way to live than always quarreling. Then we should everything accept  as it is. But for our own life we have to weigh and to decide what is the best for our spiritual progress.                                                                                           We have to watch our thoughts. Thoughts are the strongest power in the universe. If we give more thought to any war-situation we give more power in that war. We only should send Love and Light to that situation and those energies  will know wha to do.
God also accepts everything like it is. He loves everybody like he is and does not intervene. We can only do bad karma or good karma and that is coming back to us the one way or the other way.

Love and Light

       Eckart

Re: God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

Great response, Eckart, thankyou.

I would characterize the “violet flame of transformation” as the correct interpretation of what Christian scripture describes as hell.  I would also add that this violet flame is motivated by Grace.

I would also characterize karma as  the correct interpretation of what Judeo Christian scripture describes as judgement.  Again, I would add that karma is motivated by Grace. 

Different language, different interpretations, but perhaps same universal concepts.

Peace,

David

Re: God: Bringer of Judgement or Grace?

In my opinion, everything was decided long ago. For the small souls, God’s hand comes inexorably, they cannot retain the human frame. For the large souls, God’s hand comes mercifully, they have been chosen to retain the human frame. If there is a choice, it has not yet been defined in the religions, since the God which is real can only be pleased by those who purify their own consciousness through spiritual discipline, and sustain the planet. Had it been written, some today might look justified before Him, but none do.

God does not have multiple personalities, He has massively parallel functioning emerging from total unity. As creation seems more and more differentiated, God has differentiated Himself the more. But, any evil or contrariness is owing solely to the nature of the souls.

You might think that you can appeal to God, but it is not that way. He is Imperious, and cannot be reached by the creatures. I theorize that God is pleased by love and service alone, but it is not yet proved. Every morning I fix my mind on the Almighty Brahman in profound meditation, and yet there is no effect in my life, no reward for this devotion. I have however been enabled to see into the heart of the human depravity, and if I want a reward I suppose the planet and the human frame are sufficient. Yet, how wicked it all is!

I recently labeled one of my coworkers a “whining greaseball.” I call him a greaseball because he won’t take personal responsibility for his own soul, and because he won’t take personal responsibility for this planet and its future generations. I call him a whiner, because if he is confronted about this all he will do is whine. He would say, “I’m no different from anyone else,” but that is all the trouble. The race takes no responsibility, because no individual takes responsibility. All look to one another for false justification.

Who is it that can come to this man to say, “Look, he was right about you, it would be better that you take personal responsibility for your own soul and for your own habitat.” There is no one like that, and all humans thus turn their faces away from the living God.