does meditation prove.......

that god does not exist?

Re: does meditation prove.......

No. Meditation merely proves that one is able to meditate.

Re: does meditation prove.......

i agree mr………..and there certainly are positive effects from the practice but metaphysical conclusions from the meditative disciplines seems disingenuous to me…………..

Re: does meditation prove.......

hi andrew and mr,

it seems odd to conclude for or against God just on the basis of meditation. Have I missed something? andrew, do you have  a link or something to where someone is trying to prove this?

Peace,

Nicole

Re: does meditation prove.......

No. Meditation merely proves that one is able to meditate.

HA!! Absolutely brilliant!

All of Life is nothing more than a conversation in your head. Meditation is a conversation in your head about meditation.

When it comes to God, meditation is as useless as any other head-talk. You may feel more comfortable with the world because you believe you're getting close to God but, make no mistake, the idea that you can do anything to know God is just another conversation in your head.

But how else can we fill the time?LOL!

Peace Angels,
mike S

Re: does meditation prove.......

I think that by meditating I can better receive God's grace and be more aware of the blessings that surround me…..I was a lost soul before I started truly meditating….Entering in to meditative prayer gives me a peace that I have never felt before.  When I put off my meditation time, for any reason, I have a pretty lousy day.  I just feel like it is the individual's perception….if you feel the presence of God while meditating, or even if you don't, taking the time to center yourself in meditation can open you up to see all of the beautiful little things you may have otherwise missed.  I can only vouch for me, but, I feel like one of God's kids….when I meditate, he is with me….I am talking to my father.  :-)

Re: does meditation prove.......

Very beautiful Missy.

Re: does meditation prove.......

Missy, you are such a wondrous soul. You put that into words perfectly. Thank you!

Hugs,

Nicole

Re: does meditation prove.......

Depends on the meditation. But surely some will prove God does not exist the way you think She does. :-)


lov e

Re: does meditation prove.......

LOL, e! She moves in Mysterious Ways

Mike, I'm intrigued by your post about Life being a conversation in our head. Certainly, talking about meditation is just another conversation, but do you think there is value in getting off that thought-train, even briefly?

Love,

Nicole

Re: does meditation prove.......

Nicole,

I “meditate,” but for me the goal is simply to sit still and reduce stress, not to attain any presence of God, but to negotiate the world with less stress. So when you meditate, focus on a conversation that will aid in reducing stress. In any case, conversate you will and there's no getting out of your head-talk (other than talking about getting out of it).

Herbert Benson put out a neet little paperback called the Relaxation Response which addressed the benefits of meditative stillness in managing physical and emotional stress.

Yet, once we incorporate this into some austere path to realization, enlightenment, awakening or whatever, I believe delusion sets in and this delusion becomes a part of our narrative and may in fact impede the benefits of meditation for more effectively negotiating the world. Because now we are negotiating the world as a 'seeker of god.' And those folks can really be a pain in the ass sometimes, if you know what I mean.

The very idea that 'you' can engage in some practice or DO some 'thing' in order to know God is absurd to me.

But it certainly is a major part of many popular narratives and thus a big part of the self-concept for many 'seekers.'

If one wishes to add spiritual meditation to the regimen of things-to-do, that's fine since it is helpful in negotiating reality with less stress.

Other than that it is simply another story or myth that we live by, and will eventually die with. Yet, I do recognize that for many, to sit still for long periods of time is highly unproductive. Therefore, adding a 'seeking god' storyline may be helpful in adhering to a goal of meditation. Hope you don't get stuck in it, that's all.

When God wants to make your acquaintance, God will do so on God's schedule (which probably does NOT include 'time') and there's not a thing you could ever do to initiate that meeting. To think that you have some say in that meeting or 'realization' is the height of arrogance (I'm sure we have all run across an arrogant 'seeker' at one time or another. Hell, christianity is full of 'em)

But, as always, just saying…

Peace Angels,
mike S

Re: does meditation prove.......

Don't ever stop “just saying”, Mike!

Perhaps it does seem odd to think that we can get closer to God by praying or meditating.

I like to think of it as just being more open, more receptive, not that I am summoning God, God forbid :), like some kind of djinn, but that God, who is already closer to me than my heartbeat, delights when we stop ignoring God or turning away from God for a minute to try to tune in and listen.

Light and peace,

Nicole

Re: does meditation prove.......

Once, when I was a kid, I couldn't whistle.  I decided whistling was a terrible way to try and carry a tune– that it couldn't be done.   After that, I didn't whistle for years.  

Re: does meditation prove.......

Excellent, thanks Alan! :)

Hugs,

Nicole

Re: does meditation prove.......

i have to admit to being a wee bit confused…and sometimes it feels as though i am just being used….roger waters and i am digressing even before i start here …lol

so, and please correct me where i am wrong or being obtuse. i was under the impression that the ultimate out come of the meditative disciplines was the realization that god does not exist in any objective way. so why are you all saying that god exists if the buddhists have proved that god doesn't exist. kw says that there has been a 3000 year verifiable all most empirical methodology that anyone -who is willing to sit on their ass for long enough- can also verify……what the hell is the matter with ya'all!lol…… moreover, every buddhist book i read declares how science is also verifying these ancient buddhist notions…..i don't know, i guess we find allies were ever we can, kinda like israel and the last day christians, nevermind that those christians think that the anti-christ will sit in the holy of holies in the rebuilt temple…..

speaking of israel, isn't this how we know that god exists? isn't the spirit of prophecy the way that god has chosen to reveal itself to humankind? that situation is more bizarre than any fiction, nothing to it i suppose? i just read anne rices portrayal of a 7 year old jesus and i must confess that i had an emotional reaction to it (she's such a great writer} but i wonder why people find it so hard to believe that god couldn't possibly take human form. if there is a god, what is so impossible about this?

anyway, i'm just muzing……..

tick-tock-tick-tock-tick-tock people, time ticking away…….

Re: does meditation prove.......

What you will subjectively verify is an experience.

One can label that experience “god” if one chooses and many have.

But I can just as easily label the experience of my morning bowel movement “god” as well.

But that would be silly because everyone knows that a BM is not an experience of “god.” Right?

The only thing science has verified is that folks that sit on their ass for long durations have 'experiences.' No more, no less.

Peace Angels,
mike S

Re: does meditation prove.......

What Buddhist meditation is attempting to do is to drill thru the layers of ontology until there are no more. Depending on the tradition there are 2 or more veils that obscure Ultimate Reality. (Thought and emotion will do for this discussion.) As concentration increases and clinging abates, obscuring thoughts and emotions are put aside and That which you all call God comes to the forefront. But there is no longer a supportive ontology. The idea that you exist separate from God is the idea that has to be jettisoned (I and the Father are one). And so I was not 100% kidding when I said meditation will change the way you think about God (as well as yourself). And so you may come to experience for yourself that God is omnipresent and so yes God is also a BM.

lov e

Re: does meditation prove.......

e -

I am in total agreement.  There is no “seeking” God.  There is the sum total of all that is and all that is not - and that wholeness is beyond any human comprehension.  Yet, I believe it is possible to come to know the essence of our spirit, beyond the ego self, that I think of as that bit of God individuated within me.  The eternal self that I believe I am.  I may find I was totally wrong, when I cease to exist after my physical death, but it is my hope that I am not wrong.

I am new to meditation, though I long wanted to do it, I couldn't sit still.  I've embarked on the Holosync program and it works for me because it acts as a timer for me and something to focus upon.  I'm not seeking God, or to know God, or to hear God, in meditation.  I am learning to watch what thoughts and memories arise, to become aware of that stuff that goes on inside my head all the time, and to let those thoughts float on by, as change is constant.  Sometimes, I am so at peace, it becomes quiet - but not often ;-p.

I have become aware from 30+ years of practicing an active spirituality, that I am the cause of my experiences, that the quality of them is affected by the qualities of who I am and that I can request change anytime and it comes.  The really funny things is that it probably comes, even when I don't request it.  Ha LOL.  The only constant is change in my life's experience.  This too will pass and all that.  My God has a sense of humor.

For me, through a struggle with external or internal “voices” in my head during my 20s (however, you prefer, to interpret that, is fine by me), I did discover my concept of how God talks to me.  I understand why it is often called the “still, small voice” and can add nothing to that concept beyond those words.  This I have learned to trust implicitly.

It is an interesting discussion thread that my old friend Andrew (smashing one) started here.  I enjoyed reading it.

Deb

Re: does meditation prove.......

The eternal self that I believe I am.  I may find I was totally wrong, when I cease to exist after my physical death, but it is my hope that I am not wrong.

Let's find out now before we die. How do you exist now Deb? What is permanent in your experience to say there is an eternal anything? Have you found it yet in meditation? The essence of our spirit may turn out to be essenceless. Would that be so bad? Seems like it would be freeing. We don't have to pretend or put on airs or protect or defend anything. We can be free right here and right now.

Sometimes, I am so at peace, it becomes quiet - but not often ;-p.

Just to get a taste is enough. To come to know that we are not our thoughts and emotions is no small feat.

peac e

Re: does meditation prove.......

I always tend to drum up a great deal of response when I de-sacralize the precious moments (meditation) that many require in order to differentiate between the self I AM and the self I AM desiring to become.

Whether we choose a Buddhist, Christian or atheist path, it does seem that many feel being ‘human' is a rather messy endeavor and so we seek to become something more. We seek out paths to raise us up from our ‘self' and I realize many folks take that very, very seriously.

Believing one must “jettison” an idea of a separate self (separate from “god” and other selves) can only further reinforce the separate self. This seems to be the circularity we deny. My point was that when you plop down to engage in meditation with the goal of going beyond an ego-self, inadvertently you will affirm and further reinforce that you ARE an ego-self. But what's wrong with an ego-self? Now there's the question.

It seems to me that holding the paradox of both perspectives, self and not self, may be beneficial. But I doubt that trying to escape the self, whether through Buddhism, Advaita, or some other austere practice, can ever do anything but keep one irreducibly a self.

Yet, it is not my intention to BM on people's ‘path,' since NOT to have a path is yet another path. If you are cause of your experiences, then most likely you are cause of that ‘still small voice' inside as well. But what's wrong with that? Time to stop seeking some ‘beyond' experience.

I still find it rather absurd that we believe we can do something, or not do something, to know or realize “god.” Seems to me that when you are free of all of those pesky 'spiritual' goals, objectives and paths, you will find that experience quite exhilarating and you can even call it “god” if you so choose.

But I dunno, so I'm just saying..

Peace Angels,

Re: does meditation prove.......

Mike,

I dunno, that I dunno, anything and yet here I am.  I am enjoying the clarifying and non-clarifying experience and mincing words.

Who cares what it is or what we call it?  What really matters is that life is worth living or we wouldn't struggle so to continue it.  Why?  I dunno, that I dunno but I'm having fun - are you too?

Deb

Re: does meditation prove.......

I'm with you Deb!

The games are infinite and there are no winners or losers just continued  ongoing, never-ending, wonderful play. Live for surprise, because there are no rules.

Peace Angel,
Mike S

Re: does meditation prove.......

Believing one must “jettison” an idea of a separate self (separate from “god” and other selves) can only further reinforce the separate self.

All it is meant to do is to get one to consider ones assumptions. To look at them and take them apart. See if they hold up under scrutiny. BTW I said God was not ontological.

This seems to be the circularity we deny. My point was that when you plop down to engage in meditation with the goal of going beyond an ego-self, inadvertently you will affirm and further reinforce that you ARE an ego-self. But what's wrong with an ego-self? Now there's the question.

That is interesting, every time I sit down and look for this unicorn called self I never find one. Can you show me yours? Where do you keep it? 2 inches behind your left eyeball, in your chest close to your heart? The “goal” of Buddhist meditation is to see clearly devoid of that which makes you see un-clearly. Like letting mud settle out of stirred up pond water. Just stop stirring and look. That has nothing to do with belief in self or belief in not-self or circularity of argument.

It seems to me that holding the paradox of both perspectives, self and not self, may be beneficial. But I doubt that trying to escape the self, whether through Buddhism, Advaita, or some other austere practice, can ever do anything but keep one irreducibly a self.

It is a paradox because these ideas remain in the realm of thought only. It is thought that remains confused. Self is identification with perspectives. It is an imputation of thought, I am X. Thought looking for permanence in that which is impermanent. Not-self is not identifying with those impermanent perspectives. If one is enamored with the reflection in the mirror and concerned with being and becoming, then these ideas don't usually gain much traction.


peac e

Happen to be reading this by Wei Wu Wei last night, from Fingers Pointing Towards the Moon P 24 Discrimination and Discrimination

One of the essential teachings of the Masters to which we in the West most consistently close our eyes is their repeated condemnation of “mentation”, “intellection”, which connotes wrong thinking, the wrong kind of thinking, mental activity which affirms our identification with an imaginary ego and so hinders the elimination of what is called “ignorance”, and renders liberation therefrom and living in a state of enlightenment forever impossible.

            The above is an omnibus statement. It should suffice to say that wrong thinking is mental activity on the plane of seeming. Do we understand this? What do we do about it? Have we any reason to doubt that the Masters knew what they were saying and meant what they said? If we are serious we should act upon their advice. If we do not - what result can we ever expect to obtain?

Re: does meditation prove.......

All it is meant to do is to get one to consider ones assumptions. To look at them and take them apart. See if they hold up under scrutiny. BTW I said God was not ontological.

Yes, I got your drift and should not have pinned you to your concepts since, as you state, we can't pin “god” to any logical theory or ontology. I am not seeking any representational concepts, although in the dialogue, concepts are there and so we plod on through our representational concepts.

Actually, I was taking apart assumptions on the concept of meditation.

That is interesting, every time I sit down and look for this unicorn called self I never find one. Can you show me yours?

Yes, I can, although it may be a fantasy, but I'd rather not negate or nullify it nonetheless. It's there and it's not, but I have nothing to do with that.

Where do you keep it? 2 inches behind your left eyeball,

Yes, it's there!

in your chest close to your heart?

There, too!

Like letting mud settle out of stirred up pond water. Just stop stirring and look.

I get that. But unsettled mud is as much 'me' as pure nonconceptual clarity. I revel in all of it and nothing is less desirable then any 'thing' else. Besides, what's wrong with “stirring”?

That has nothing to do with belief in self or belief in not-self or circularity of argument.

Possibly, in the end (if we seek an outcomce) but belief is very much the beginning and if there is no differentiation belief is the beginning and the end, converged as one. And even if there is differentaiting its the same.

It is a paradox because these ideas remain in the realm of thought only. It is thought that remains confused. Self is identification with perspectives. It is an imputation of thought, I am X. Thought looking for permanence in that which is impermanent.

But isn't it perspective too? Confusion and identification? Aren't we both permanence and impermanence? Actually, I rather enjoy my confusion, since deep within the folds is certainty. But, I'm not looking for it, although I sense it's there (maybe I should meditate more?).

If one is enamored with the reflection in the mirror and concerned with being and becoming, then these ideas don't usually gain much traction.

Sadly, I am both “enamored” and “concerned” with being and becoming and I am NOT, as well. Look's like I've lost traction. But isn't that the point? Isn't the Buddhist “goal” is to lose traction with all ideas and concepts?

Have we any reason to doubt that the Masters knew what they were saying and meant what they said? If we are serious we should act upon their advice. If we do not - what result can we ever expect to obtain? - Wei Wu Wei

Free your 'self' from the “Masters” and what they “said” and then you can be free of “serious,” since you need not “act” because you will no longer “expect” a “result.” But I suppose all teachers teach to the student.

I'm just a simple-headed, confused fool and nobody listens to my dribble anyway (and that includes “me”).

But thanks all the same,
mike S

Re: does meditation prove.......

roalmao………….
okay, imma gonna try and answer andrew's query to me in this one. i honestly believe that what god is or isn't is still a mystery to us all at this point in time. whether god be 1 thing, no thing, or 3 things in one(111) is a matter of conjecture. because of this truism i live in amazement at all the folks who assert with utter confidence what they think god is or is not. wouldn't it be better and more genuine to phrase one's beliefs about god in spiritual hypothesis? i mean even the integralites who claim to be the cutting edge of the spiritual continuum assert that jesus (or allah for that matter) isn't god. and although i kinda understand how they come to that conclusion i do find the conclusion a tad suspect. isn't there just as much evidence for god in prophecy as there is evidence for no god in and from the meditative disciplines? so, it seems to me a more genuine discussion of faith would be for us to learn to phrase our beliefs in spiritual hypothesis. reincarnation is a spiritual hypothesis and so is jesus as god in the flesh…….as well as_________________

but you know ,i just may be colossally stupid……..

peace and compassion brothers and sisters…..

Re: does meditation prove.......

where you are is where you are… what you see is where you are

Re: does meditation prove.......

“there's no getting out of your head-talk”…….

Where did you get this idea?  You probably thought it up in your head.
The purpose of meditation is to be free of head talk, to let it pass through you, and arrive at a free space.

Hope you will experience a chatter free mind.  You will like it.
peace _^_

Re: does meditation prove.......

mimi, good to have you join us! It is indeed difficult to get into these discussions without getting into circles…

Love,

Nicole

Re: does meditation prove.......

Hi andrew, this is Andrew, so people don't think you're talking to yourself.

I'm intrigued to know what brought about your association with meditation and the proof of the existence of God?

For those who believe no proof is necessary, for those who don't believe no proof is possible.

Re: does meditation prove.......

I believe the point of meditation is to bring us to the consciousness beyond our thoughts, beyond our egos, beyond our words.  

Re: does meditation prove.......

Meditation can be a way of further augmenting one's beliefs through the experiences one gains in meditation.
Meditation can also be a way of breaking through our preconceived boundaries and experiencing what we perceive to be true existence. The only way we can prove that meditation doesn't prove our pre-conceived beliefs is by finding a way of moving beyond our concrete thought system and set of beliefs.
If meditation does prove that God exists or 'All is Brahman' it will be when we know that the act of meditation is not just about serving our pre-conceived ideas about God and by moving beyond that and seeing how things really are, Sankara Saranam would call this an intuitive scientist!

Re: does meditation prove.......

yeah!!!!

Re: does meditation prove.......

this is such an amazing thread. I was especially delighted by as well as our regular contributors Alan, Mike, Andrew, Missy, Mr and andrew, we were joined by Domi, Deb (Re: Gaia Networking November's Featured Member - Writer/Humanitarian Deborah) and e - deep bows to all,

Love,

Nicole

Re: does meditation prove.......

the direct recognition of your true nature is available in every instant, on or off the cushion, whether you meditate or not

“When Zen Master Nan-chuan saw his student Ma-tsu diligently practicing meditation hour after hour, he sensed a certain effort and ambition in the young monk's demeanor, so he sneaked up behind him and asked, “What are you doing?” “I'm trying to become a Buddha,” Ma-tsu replied proudly.

Nan-chuan then picked up a stone and began rubbing it against a spare tile from the monastery floor. Hearing the sound, Ma-tsu asked, “What are you doing?” Said Nan-chuan: “I'm trying to make a mirror.” Ma-tsu had an awakening.

Everything is just as it is! Ma-tsu is Ma-tsu, the tile is the tile, and you are you, just as you are. There's no Buddha apart from this fundamental truth, and any attempt to achieve some special state of mind just leads you away from who and what you already are. In the direct approach to truth …,

…the direct recognition of your true nature is available in every instant, on or off the cushion, whether you meditate or not. You merely need to “take the backward step that turns your light inward to illuminate the Self,” as Dogen Zenji said.”

Peace Angels,
mike S

Re: does meditation prove.......

Mike, what a perfect story. Thank you!

Love,

Nicole

Re: does meditation prove.......

Yeah, great teaching story!

Anyone here awakened by it?

Yeah, me neither.

Back to the cushion. :-)))

peac e

Re: does meditation prove.......

Of course you weren't “awakened” by it,

There's no such thing!

But hey, that doesn't mean you shouldn't enjoy your cushion anyway…


Peace Angel : )
mike S

Re: does meditation prove.......

What you are looking for you are looking with….

Re: does meditation prove.......

It's funny how Mike fails to impress when his heroes does. Why is that? I love all those Zen stories and Dogen is on top of the list. There are some fun interactions between Obaku (Huang Po) and Rinzai (Lin Chi) in the Zen Teachings of Rinzai. Where Mikes approach is very much what Rinzai like to display, but I'm always stunned by the subtle and important touches that Obaku adds.

74. The master(Rinzai) went to Obaku in the middle of the summer retreat. He encountered Obaku reading Sutras and remarked: “I thought it was a man! But it is only the old Venerable who crams black beans into his mouth!”

A few days later he took leave again Obaku said: “You broke the summer retreat in coming here. And now you leave without finishing it.” The master said: “I only came to pay my respect to you.” Obaku finally hit him and ordered that he be chased away.

When the master had gone but a few miles, he had doubts about this affair, returned, and finished the summer retreat.

A few more lovely examples,

69 The master and all the monks were out hoeing. When the master saw Obaku approach, he stopped working and propped himself up on his hoe. Obaku said: “Would this fellow be tired?” The master replied: “I have as yet not even lifted my hoe. Why should I be tired?” Obaku hit him. The master grabbed the stick, gave Obaku a good blow and knocked him over. Obaku called the superintendent to help him up. The superintendent, doing so, remonstrated: “Venerable, how can you permit the impudence of this madman?” Obaku was hardly on his feet when he hit the superintendent. The master, having started to hoe, remarked: “Cremation is the custom everywhere, but here, I bury alive with a single stroke!”

Later, Issan asked Gyosan: “What is the meaning of Obaku's beating the superintendent?” Gyosan said: “The real robber ran off; the pursuer got the stick.”

70. One day the master was sitting in front of the monks' hall. Seeing Obaku come, he dosed his eyes as if asleep. Obaku, as if frightened, returned to his quarters. The master followed him there and bowed his apology. The head monk was present, attending Obaku. Obaku remarked: “Though this is but a young monk, yet he does understand this great matter.”

Re: does meditation prove.......

It's funny how Mike fails to impress when his heroes does. Why is that?

It seems by the intensity of your comment, you are impressed. You're welcome! LOL.

Nevetheless I realize it is difficult to teach oneness through the righteousness of the separate self. Many have tried and, in believing that they are succeeding, they obviously fail. But in realizing they failed…succeeded! 

Love ya Bro!

Peace Through Paradox,
mike S

Re: does meditation prove.......

Of course you weren't “awakened” by it,

There's no such thing!

Agreed, there is no self (that awakens).


But hey, that doesn't mean you shouldn't enjoy your cushion anyway…

…enjoyed or not…

peac e

Re: does meditation prove.......

…enjoyed or not…

I was about to let it all go, but then I thought…'if you “enjoyed” it, would you do it”?

Then I thought, 'if I could not sacrifice, what would be the point?'

I ended it with the question does 'truth' require sacrifice?

Which I have yet to answer….(I sense the answer is 'no' but this might nullify all my years of hard work).

Peace Angel.
mike S

Re: does meditation prove.......

its a great question.  may I?  (hehehe, try to stop me)

Re: does meditation prove.......

Hey Mike,

Nullify all your years of hard work?

You'd better have a read of my lastest blog

An eccentric Aussie

Re: does meditation prove.......

Just when you think a thread gently rests, it takes some very unexpected turns. What a delight to hear from each of you, Alan, Andrew, Bjorn, e and Mike.

Andrew, I'm glad you linked you blogs because I hadn't seen the earlier ones. What a cool snake you have. So beautiful.

Alan, they say you learn something every day. Now I know about gi joe baseball :)

Love,

Nicole

Re: does meditation prove.......

Howdy,
Forgive my intrusion as I ain't properly introduced myself.

Seems to me (which sure don't make it truth) but it seems to me that alotta this here conversating depends on the definition of the word “meditate.”

I've heard folks say (an others write) in various different places and books that meditation:
(1) has nothin to do with Mr. or Miss God. 
(2) helps us to hear better what god(s) are asayin. 
(3) helps us to realize ourselves as god (or aspects suchly.)
(4) removes obstacles from the mind.
(5) is the mind free from obstacles.
(6) is a practice with purposeful goal in mind.
(7) is purposeless but oughta be done anyhows.
(8) is just a fancy word meaning, “to sit on one's arse.”
(9) involves concentratin.
(10) involves not concentratin.
(11) involves concentratin on not concentratin.
(12) involves not much movin round.
(13) involves a lotta bendin and waving about.

Then they gots all these “strains” of meditatin:
Dzogchen fer the Tibetans.
Yoga fer the flexible.
Ch'i Kung fer the bouncy.
Chan for the Chinese.
Zen for the Japanese or the Beatus-niks.
Vipashna for the Hindi.
Contemplation fer the Russian Orthodox.
Raizan for the breathingly impaired (heh heh).
Countin, praying, naming, thinking about names…

Now, I'm a just aguessin that all these folks have different (if any) aims in their meditatin and thusly (ergo sum somethin eranother) differnt perspectives on Mr. an Miss. God.

But that's just a playful perspective, wot?  Forgive a cantankerous coyote.

Re: does meditation prove.......

Oh geez…now you've gone and done it! You've de-sacralized the profound and austere practice of meditation.

However, I like your presentation since it does mess with the rules.

Meditation's pretty cool and i do it sometimes. But I have no meditation 'practice' since I am not in 'training' for anything.

One thing about your list is that each entry is a 'goal' or, as you call it, “aims” for something. I think that once a person, or a mind focused on a 'self,' engages in the practice of meditation with a goal of any kind whatsoever, the only thing the practice reinforces is the 'self.'

Once you bring 'god' into it, your finished and you have rendered what might be useful for something… useless.

“Ch'i Kung fer the bouncy.”

You mean, like Tigger?

Thanks : )
mikeS

Re: does meditation prove.......

Hey Mike, you make God sound like the death of the party.

Meditation as Davie points out comes in many forms with many goals.

Why shouldn't a (deeper) realisation or (greater) awareness of the “Source of Everything”, the “Original Cause”, or “Infinite Unknowable”, whatever someones understanding of the “Ultimate Holy Deity” be the purpose of meditation?

I'm sure God is not distressed that you don't believe She exists but as you have pointed out on at least one occasion… you might be wrong.

In meditation I've had what I can only say was an expanding experience and an awareness of 'something' beyond description, but it is vivid and comforting, and no matter how long it is between quiet times of meditation, some of that 'experience' stays with me.  It is not a sensation, more like a present awareness.

If God chooses to reveal a glimpse of It's reality to someone in meditation, somehow I don't think your ideology is going to prevent it from happening.

An eccentric village idiot

Re: does meditation prove.......

And the goals are yours, not God”s. However, every goal is God's as well. See?

Maybe you can hold both perspectives? Some claim that they can.

Why shouldn't a (deeper) realisation or (greater) awareness of the “Source of Everything”, the “Original Cause”, or “Infinite Unknowable”, whatever someones understanding of the “Ultimate Holy Deity” be the purpose of meditation?

I like the concepts you use to define your experience. Problem is your experience may be a result of your concepts and have nothing to do with 'god.” Have you considered that?

In meditation I've had what I can only say was an expanding experience and an awareness of 'something' beyond description, but it is vivid and comforting, and no matter how long it is between quiet times of meditation, some of that 'experience' stays with me.  It is not a sensation, more like a present awareness.

Why mediate when you can just drop acid. Many years ago I met “god” while on purple microdot. God came to me and stood right before me. Finally, after what seemed like an enternity, God spoke these profound words…”Just say NO, to drugs.”
Needless to say, I have been an avid meditator since that day. However, I cannot deny that I often pine for that good 'ole purple microdot!

If God chooses to reveal a glimpse of It's reality to someone in meditation, somehow I don't think your ideology is going to prevent it from happening.

Well, I tend to think that god will not reveal itself through any method you expect, therefore, you might miss it if you demand it only be revealed in your meditation. Course, it could be revealed that way as well. As I have stated before, god could come to you in your morning bowel movement and you'd miss that revelation because you have set up an expectation that revelation come through meditation. I suppose the point is stop expecting and it will come.
However, if you want to meditate so that you have a nice day, by all means, meditate!

Have A Nice Day!
mikeS

Re: does meditation prove.......

Ah yes Mike, please don't interpret what I said meaning I believe that is the only way.

You're becoming predictable Mike, I've been waiting for your morning bowel movement analogy, just didn't think you would introduce it this early.  If you are going to develop your warm and fuzzy, caring, sharing image you'll need to keep it up your sleeve a little longer.

I find the smallest room in the house an excellent place for quiet and peaceful contemplative meditation.  My awareness of God is no stronger or weaker there than anywhere else.

Concepts are a nasty little parasite of a mental hiccup don't you think?  They creep in and before you know it your worshiping one.  At least that is what I'd think if it was bringing me into some form of bondage.

I actually believe that God can overcome concepts Mike, but it's better felt than telt (told).  Any experience I've had of the presence of God has been accompanied by a supreme experience of freedom.

I've had experiences of other kinds too, not unlike your purple dot, but they always came with the sensation of being attached to something or in a worst case scenario totally incapacitated.

I've experienced the presence of God watching sunrises and sunsets, when my son was born and the doctor passed him to me when he was just seconds old, at the funeral of my mother, driving trucks across the Nullabor plane, anywhere, anytime.  It's just that I can enjoy it without distraction when I meditate.

I believe a certain book that says “You shall know the Truth and the Truth will make you free.”  I believe God is Truth, I mean, why would He/She lie?

So the fact that my experiences not only give a very real awareness of freedom but through them I've been released from the bondage of religous dogma and realised God doesn't need defending, has added to the conviction that it is God that I'm experiencing.

An eccentric village idiot

Re: does meditation prove.......

You're becoming predictable Mike, I've been waiting for your morning bowel movement analogy, just didn't think you would introduce it this early.  If you are going to develop your warm and fuzzy, caring, sharing image you'll need to keep it up your sleeve a little longer.

HA! yes, It is getting a little old. I was considering possibly a nose-picking episode, but…you are quite right, that would be too warm and inviting. LOL!

Sorry, Aussie-man, but I need to partake of the Thanksgiving ritualistic family bonding crapola in our heartfelt thanks for this great bountiful nation which allows to its citizens to die for the inability to afford healthcare and is now going into major bankruptcy due to its blantant greed. (although I may drop in from time to time)

I'm curious as to why YOU are not celebrating your thanks for the
all-powerful, all-wise, and great nation of America!

How dare you!!
mikeS

Re: does meditation prove.......

It must have slipped my mind…

Re: does meditation prove.......

HAHA
love it!

Re: does meditation prove.......

Hmmm. When I meditate, I feel an…emptiness, like there is such a vast mass within and around me that I am going to be pulled into oblivion. It can be very disconcerting sometimes, and yet…that I am MORE than what I thought I was…like my atoms, my Being doesn't stop with physical Michelle. Maybe meditation just proves that our concept of God is nowhere near what God Really Is. Maybe it proves that our preconceived notions of God doesn't exist…but it also points that there is something more out there. And it is up to us to explore and become one with It.

Re: does meditation prove.......

Is it possible to comprehend the infinite God with the finite mind and then convey that comprehesion processed into emotionless language for another to process with their finite mind and come in any way aware of what you are trying to describe?

I think the answer is self evident.

- an eccentric village idiot

Re: does meditation prove.......

my, the discussion is heating up! :) welcome, davie, it's great to have your perspective, too!

Love,

Nicole

Re: does meditation prove.......

Hallo again!

the process of conveying infinite concepts through finite means is generally referred to as “art”.  Poetry being my favourite genre. 

Is it possible that there are no “finite” minds, but only infinite ones?
I think maybe so.  Take Godel's Incompleteness Proof, fer instance.  Assuming that the mind is real, then I may deduce its completeness and its consistency.  If both complete and consistent, then it must either be entirely irrational or contain an infinite number of axioms (assumptions or parts in this case).  If irrational, then it is not subject to conceptualization itself and therefore infinite.

Its an ad-hoc quicky argument but it holds some agua, me thinks.  ;)  I personally find this to be empirical reason to guess (not believe) that minds are infinite.

A way to distill this down to plainer speak: if consciousness arises in the whole person due to the conscious action of its parts…  or if I am conscious and my cells are conscious and the atoms in me are conscious and the quantum particles in me have cooperated together consciously to form a Davie… then I can guess that my ability to understand concepts is somehow affected therein.  If you persons out there are similarly constructed, I find it likely that anything you can perceive- you can convey to me because I also can perceive it even if I currently am not doing so.

Certainly not a truth, but an interesting idea (which matches my perception of the universe, whoever the heck i am and it is!)

As for god- never met the dude, though I hear he abides.  however, i have met Mystery.  He goes fishing in the Kentucky River.  I ain't asked her- but she may herself meditate.

love,
tigger

Re: does meditation prove.......

Well said, Michelle! Thanks for adding your views to our discussion,

Love,

Nicole

Re: does meditation prove.......

davie's post - back there somewhat gets to the crux of things illuminating why there is no straightfoward answer to the question.
there is only the answer that presents itself (whether it is “real” or “imagined”) to each individual according to their own propensities, doctrines, habits, wishful-thinkings etc…
for me - meditation prooves that i shouldn't believe what others think…. and also for the most part - i shouldn't believe what I think.
that's my “truth” for the moment.
arpita

Re: does meditation prove.......

The word/concept of God has been so corrupted that it's value has been greatly diminished.  I think the Buddhists have the right idea in doing away with the concept altogether.

Meditation is essentially just a tool a method to become familiar with what it is in you that is aware that you are meditating.  Until one becomes familiar with  it identified with it,  the  fluctuations of the mind rules one's life. 

The mike S quote from Dogen Zenji points to the heart of the matter but until we can overcome our facination with what we think, we are slaves to our conditioning.

Re: does meditation prove.......

Hi Ricosoma,

I'm wondering why you would relegate “God” to the level of concept.  When you suggest the term has been corrupted, corrupted from what?

Isn't it possible for the infinite original Cause of all that is to appear to each persons consciousness in a uniquely different way?

I have yet to find anywhere any evidence of the fact that “God” is or has at any time tried to prove His/Her existence to His/Her creation.

If I was God I don't believe I would think it necessary to prove to myself that I exist. 

- An eccentric Aussie

Re: does meditation prove.......

I hear you, Andrew!

davie and arpita, poetry, music and the arts do indeed seem to be great ways of coming close to expressing the inexpressible.

Love,

Nicole

Re: does meditation prove.......

God is a word, words relate concepts.  What I was trying to convey is that the word God has been used throughout history as an excuse for causing much of the pain and suffering that humanity has endured.  The corruption arises from using the concept to divide people into us and them. “We” believe in God in a certain way and those that don't accept our beliefs are not a part of “us”.  

The “original Cause” is in fact the one supreme unifying factor of existance.  To use the Cause to justify division and hate is the most extreme corruption of all. 

I have no disagreement that we each perceive the infinite, omnipresent, omnipotent “energy” that continuosly creates the universe from moment to moment in our own way.  It's when one uses his perception or his beliefs to cause another pain that the concept loses it's appeal for me.  That's why I think the Buddhists have the right idea in doing away with the “concept” altogether.