To have a teacher or not

Hello all,

There is a Sufi saying that is something like, “one day with a teacher offers as much spiritual growth as 200 year without.”

I'm just curious how people feel about spiritual teachers? Do you think real ones exist? Is the only useful teacher inside of us? Is the teacher-disciple relationship something of the past? Are books just as good? Do we all teach each other? Have you had a teacher? Why/why not? Are you looking for a teacher?

This is not about me wanting you to have a teacher. I'm really curious to know where people stand with this. I know that in the US it's mostly seen as nuts to have someone else direct your life. We are very supportive of people doing it all on their own. Help in the form of a teacher would probably be seen as a handicap and suspicious by most people.

I personally do have a teacher.

What do you think?

Blessings,
Joshua

Re: To have a teacher or not

People born in Bilingual cultures grow up speaking two languages. But one still needs a teacher to grasp the nuances of grammar in any language.
My Dad was a physicist, but very little about physics rubbed off on me. a little bit about scientific method, questioning, and making a reasonable argument.
If I wanted Physics, I would have needed a teacher. There is no way that would rub off on me.
The thing that a serious teacher does for you cuts through the illusions and delusions you have about yourself. A teacher does not have to be absolutely awakened, or anointed by god. they just have to cut through your bullshit and give you a chance to find your own humility.
No Doubt–every one needs a teacher at, some point.
Can you do it yourself?
    Well a teacher can't do it for you.
       Once you learn to cut through the BS, you can learn from any one.
But why risk deluding yourself?
Ask some one for help!

Re: To have a teacher or not

Very well put sherab!  Thank you for your words.

Blessings!
-yvette

Re: To have a teacher or not

Joshua, sherab, and yvette, thank you.


The teacher who is indeed wise does not bid you to enter the house of his wisdom but rather leads you to the threshold of your mind.  ~Khalil Gibran, 

Re: To have a teacher or not

yes - well put sherab.
there are … levels of maturity - or depths of awareness perhaps … in teachers and students… and various co-dependant relations can occur that can be quite subtle and hard to see.
but even this casn be an enormous blessing as disillusionment dawns - as long as the student can peer into and understand his/her attachments - recognizing and then releasing… so that subtler attachments can be peered into…
and so it goes.
hi joshua…
my experience is that real teachers exist.  and lineages of teachings exist. but there are layers and layers and layers of mind draped over all the ideas of teachers and teachings… so it is not a simple matter of being awakened in the presence of a teacher - or having the teacher mirror enlightenment…. because the ideas of these things more often than not create delusion - except perhaps for the infintessimally small few - which are already aware of the layers of mind.

but what is a “real” teacher? - teacher and student are matched and have resonance with each other… so the teacher for one is not the teacher for another.  and it isn't anything that can be forced.  so it is good, i think, to simply see what relationships arise in your field of experience, not being attached already to idealogies and concepts, (beginner's mind) and be open to the possiblity of learning from whomever is there (a “spiritual teacher” or a business partner, a client, a sibling)…with a sense of curiosity, an open mind.
regards
arpita

Re: To have a teacher or not

beautifully said, arpita, may we all find the teachers we need, 

love,

nicole

Re: To have a teacher or not

Hey Christine,

it does seem that we need a teacher, since we adhere to the paradigm of 'learning,' which is certainly a paradigm of the conventional world. This leaves me to wonder, is God available only through this worldly paradigm of learning? Why would knowing God conform to the world's paradigm of learning, since I presume we all believe God is outside all paradigms or belief systems?

I suppose if one believes God created the world, then the paradigm of learning of God applies. On the other had, if God is a 'field of consciousness' and all objects of consciousness are of our making, then we create the teacher and essentially teach ourselves. This is the old “teacher and student are one” rendition of reality.

In the world there seems to be much we must learn in order to survive and thrive. However, I sense that awareness of God is not available through the world's paradigms of 'knowing' and 'learning.' Possibly it will be an unlearning of all we know that will make us available to knowing outside the world's models of existence. In other words, there are some things that are known and do not require learning, but inversely require forgetting everything we think we know.

Just a theory…
mikeS

Re: To have a teacher or not

Mike! Mike, it's wonderful to see you. I have missed you very much here.

Excellent point, that God is not limited by us in any way.

Possibly it will be an unlearning of all we know that will make us available to knowing outside the world's models of existence. In other words, there are some things that are known and do not require learning, but inversely require forgetting everything we think we know.

Would you mind elaborating on this?

Love,

Nicole

Re: To have a teacher or not

Hey Nicole!

I've missed you guys too! Unfortunately, not alot of interactions like here, to be found in my rural world.

To elaborate on my previous comment, I think alot of folks tend to take to 'paradigm of learning' for granted. It basically demands that to 'know,' one must 'learn' and without 'learning' one can never know.

Seems pretty basic and nonnegotiable, however, it is a significant paradigm of our life nonetheless and we deeply pride ourselves on what we know. Therefore, the basic consensus is that those who have not pursued learning of God, cannot possibly know God. Obviously, this brings in all manner of learning models and their teachers, which we refer to as religious and spiritual “paths,” to teach what must be learned based on the learning paradigm. The learning paradigm requires teachers to teach what is not known, which creates a heirarchy of one over another as opposed to an equality. This requires that all 'students' fully participate in the basic assumption that they must be taught what they do not know. Bow to your teacher!

The problem with the 'learning paradigm' is that those who are not following some strict path toward learning of God, may tend to assume that they can never know or are below those others who follow such a path toward knowing. Thus we have the heirarchical world of today, in which there are teachers, students and all those other ignorant people. So this is what God wants? (stated with a Jackie Mason accent)  Ha!

The question then must be, is this assumption correct? How could you NOT know God? Or, in other words, why would that which created YOU, make it virtually impossible for IT to be known except through learning from a teacher? Did God, or absolute Truth, apportion itself out or allow itself be known to only a few? Seems rather ridiculous from my perspective.

Therefore, the only possible answer is that God must be known but it is not through any paradigm of learning that such 'knowing' could be attained (I think many of the eastern “masters” have said as much). Thus you cannot be taught through any teaching paradigm simply because you know and there's nothing to be taught. In fact, what must occur is all that you 'know' should somehow essentially be forgotten, since that hinders what is known. I suppose a teacher migh be beneficial in this approach, but the teacher would eventually be dispensed with as well.

We all tend to idolize and worship our knowledge of the world (in fact, we tend to look down on those who seem ignorant or stupid). Unfortunately, this idolization merely reinforces that God must be learned and we requires teachers teach us. This negates the idea that ignorance is bliss because once you surrender what you know, you're no longer ignorant, but i would imagine you are probably blissful.

With all the world's millions of libraries full to the brim with the knowledge of the 'learned,' (and growing bigger by the minute) the world seems no more blissful and, from my perspective, growing less collectively blissful with each passing day.

But that's just my perspective and this is just my 'philosophizing' and must be dispensed with as well.

Peace Angel,
mikeS

Re: To have a teacher or not

Mike, it is indeed a serious danger that we become too fond of what we know and look down on others who don't know. But if there are many ways to know God, isn't it possible that some of those include a teacher?

Love,

Nicole 

Re: To have a teacher or not

Nicole,

As you know I merely philosophize here and often tend to haphazardly (hit and miss) seek out a perspective beyond what has been conventionaly adopted by the status quo. This tends to make me somewhat disagreeable to many who have relied heavily on what they have been taught. However, i'm completely open to the fact that I may be dead wrong in many of these so-called silly ideas I seem to advocate one day, only to replace the next.

So with that said, I tend to believe at present that the teacher does more damage than good. This is because as a collective we fail to 'learn' that way. However, this goes against centuries of teaching and teachers.

Yet, other than a few 'wise ones' I'm still looking to see what benefit these teachers have bestowed upon the world, as opposed to their own claim to 'wisdom,' which sounds soothing to us dummies (personally speaking, of course), but never seems to take hold.

I mean look at all the great teachings of Buddha and Jesus. The collective ego loves the sound of these wise old proverbs and sutras, but as far as it's concerned, they are essentially unattainable to us mere mortals. And so the world seems to be ever more alienated from the wisdom of these “masters” and it is beginning to show.

It seems to me that we teach and we do so everyday and what we believe is what we teach. if you believe you do not know God or knowing God requires years of serious and austere learning then that's what you'll teach. This is as natural as breathing and once the “teacher” comes into play, you take yourself out of that formula in deciding that you no longer know. I do not suppose God requires mediators, however, we seem to rely heavily on them.

But, as always and forever, I'm just saying…
mikeS

Re: To have a teacher or not

Thank you, Mike.

Did you ever read the book Mister God, This is Anna? This five year old mystic is puzzled by church-going and the Bible because to her, it's all self-evident. Some of us are slow learners! :) We need a lot of repetition for things to sink in.

Love,

Nicole

Re: To have a teacher or not

Nicole,

Ha! No, never read that. Is it available on the web? Sounds right up my alley.

Thanks,
mikeS

Re: To have a teacher or not

Hi Mike,

No, it's not available in its entirety but you can get a good idea of it here:

Mister God, This Is Anna: The True Story of a Very Special … - Google Books Result


Hugs,

Nicole

Re: To have a teacher or not

Re: To have a teacher or not

Thank you so much for this refreshing perspective.

Discipline, using our gifts to the full, enjoying God-given delights - yes!

Love,

Nicole

Re: To have a teacher or not

hello Silly Old Bear, Nicole, Mike and everyone
 SOB - that is one juicy post!  lots of interesting content!
but to keep things in the simple perspective of having a teacher or not - it seems to me that some paradigms have a teacher-student relationship “built in” and as i said before - it is a matter of resonance.  various religious paradigms have a lot to offer the world still i believe.  it depends on “what is needed” so to speak on the relative level for each person. (both student and teacher).  this i believe is in accord with the natural progression of learning on the relative level. 
As long as the learning is allowed to change with changing conditions… that, in my opinion, is crucial - so that one isn't stuck in a “closed” mental system that cannot be integrated in a changing world with changing global relationships. 

hi Mike - I always enjoy participating in conversations with you.
…yes… i agree with you that God cannot be learned… and all good teachers - at least the ones i have experience with - are entirely dispensible… and see themselves as that… AND that the process of teaching about spirituality is pretty well entirely about unlearning… (also learning in order to open up to other possiblilities of viewing reality - such as development stage in vajrayana where one learns to visualize dieties… with the understanding that the diety is not something other than self)… the difficulty is that the mind attaches to the new learning or the “unlearning” and just makes it into another conceptual view… and this is very very easy to get stuck in - especially if it is exotic or important sounding.  (spiritual materialism).  so a good teacher is aware of this and in all of the teaching that happens there is always the pointing toward cutting through all of that.
and of course - each one of us is separable from the divine/God or whatever name you want to use - so why bother at all????
…well… to answer that - one needs to look no further than the intentions and dynamics of relationships that are created… at home, community and globally… there is an underlying unconsciousness of all of these little separate selves vying for a profitable position at the expense of other little separate selves that are trying do the same all in various clashing cultural contexts…  whether profit is translated into money, or a personal sense of importance, a personal sense of value, or “security” (the warm and fuzzies)…
the world is becoming less blissful - not because people are more ignorant than they used to be - but because ignorance has more effective tools to use for his/her own ends…
i believe that the libraries of knowledge, all the spiritual books, the literary classics, the poetry etc are making a very positive impact - both the learning about the relative world and writings that point to the ineffable … but whether the effects of those works catch up to the well-oiled mechanized unconscious machine in which we have all invested - well that remains to be seen.
in my view - the more people around to help cut through the self centered unconsciousness - the better.  even if they, or their religious/spiritual systems are not perfect.   hail to the teachers!

Re: To have a teacher or not

Re: To have a teacher or not

Hey Christine!

Good stuff as always!

I agree “the more people around to help cut through the self centered unconsciousness - the better.” But now, wouldn't this makes us all teachers? Is it arrogance to consider yourself a teacher? Would such a conception fly in the face of centuries of the chosen few being identified by the students and having no other claim to fame than that? I believe that teaching can only occur through an equality. Once you set up a hierarchy of ones who know above those who don't you have essentially mangled the Truth of any unified collective Oneness. The hierarchical paradigm of learning seems to insure that you cannot know because knowledge in the 'world' is always based on degrees of knowing.

Is absolute Truth available in degrees or levels? Wouldn't that simply make it more of the same relative truth we have relied on, by degrees and levels, in the 'world'?

Of course, we must also examine the teacher's claim to knowledge that is not yet available to us. Why would anyone want to set him or herself up as an idol? The argument that this is not their purpose and it is the students who idolize, doesn't hold much weight with me. If that's the case, then the teacher should eschew all titles and ordainments and humble himself to the student in the understanding that Truth cannot be known through a hierarchy since that's a lie.

the world is becoming less blissful - not because people are more
ignorant than they used to be - but because ignorance has more
effective tools to use for his/her own ends…

Now that's an interesting statement! Can you give me a little more info on these “tools” because it seems to me the tools have not changed in a million years. Do you mean that the collective, through idolizing others above itself, thereby goes about destroying itself more efficiently?

Great Discussion!
mikeS

Re: To have a teacher or not

… until … perhaps eventually the great unlearning will arise… all the knots of hope and fear simply untying on it's own… and living fully in the conditions as they arise each moment, inherently knowing that each moment creates the conditions of future moments…

i don't know if that is possible for humans.

Re: To have a teacher or not

wonderful posts, arpita. it may not be possible for humans but we can always aspire!

Love,

Nicole

Re: To have a teacher or not

Joshua,
I guess where some stand on this issue depends on one's personal perspective. As someone who lives in the U.S. I believe that there are a lot of people here who have spiritual teachers and at least in California, it's not looked at as nutty. Some people need someone else to guide them. I believe that the Lord has been my guide and my only teacher. I merely open myself up and the spirit fills me, motivates me, inspires me and moves me. Everyone can do this to some extent and, in fact everyone has at one time or another. Some of us just acquire the ability to do it on a more consistent basis.  

Re: To have a teacher or not

hi Nicole, Silly OB, Mike…
thanks for your comments.
hey Mike…
sure… we are all teachers anyway… although what we teach others through our relationships and actions may not be what we thought we might be teachings… depends on the degree of awareness of our own psyche and how we relate (or react) in any particular situation…
 - and we all teach a little more formally - giving advice sometimes perhaps… writing about our views - etc - this sort of sharing - could be teaching…  or not.
as far as gathering students - some people want to do that - that's fine… then those relationships will be forged - and something or another will likely be learned - whether it is a nothing way of looking at something - or simply a learning from disillusionment….
as far as teaching from a place of equality - that is probably what i refer to as that “resonance”… although - two people can be equal and one can have a deeper understanding or broader experience than the other - so i just don't get what the problem is with acknowledging that someone else may have something to teach to another…
i don't think that most teachers look to idolized.  that's my experience.  perhaps some subconsciously have an egoic tendancy toward a sense of personal importance (but really… in all honesty - who doesn't!!!)
and there is an aspect of gratitude, to be sure - but that seems healthy… and then also, with some traditions - there is a sense of devotion… guru yoga… but that is another discussion altogether and deserves it's own space apart from this one.  I'll share my view on that - if people really want to hear it.
you know - these days in our culture, i think that some best teachers available are good psychotherapists… they are facillitators that point toward increasing depth of awareness… and that's what good teachers do.  “psychotherapist” is a title… should the therapist give up his/her title?  no - psychotherapy is the context in which you relate… so teachers have their various context too… (lineage holders for example, or the Dalai Lama for example) that's alright with me…. doesn't mean i put those guys on a pedestal. 
about the hierarchies… well - i don't know about any of that… and personally - i don't care if there are hierarchies or not.  maybe there are levels of “truth”, maybe there are levels of experience of oneness… jeez - i don't know!!…. i just know my experience.  and regardless of what someone may say about hierarchies - at this point - i may sit with a teacher on the merit of that teacher and not based on an idea of hierarchy… and by merit of the teacher - i do not mean his/her “spiritual resume” - i mean, his/her level of maturity and depth of experience that i can sense and observe. 

about this
the world is becoming less blissful - not because people are more
ignorant than they used to be - but because ignorance has more
effective tools to use for his/her own ends…

i didn't mean that statement exclusively in the context of spiritual teachers and students.  i meant it in a broad context.  in terms of the big wheel of profiteering through development, technology, communication, mechanization… all the infrastructure that we all take for granted - houses with central heating, running cars, coffee and all the other luxuries we use at the expense of others… all these things are not inherently bad - but when used in a short sighted ignorant way for profit - wreaks havoc throughout the world  for generations to come.

Re: To have a teacher or not

it's a bit of a loaded question, imo….i'll try to explain why. are not traditional ecclesiastical authorities teachers? doesn't it come down to the teaching and the motive of the teacher? why should i believe tolle and not the pope? should i have trusted jim jones or put my belief in the teachings of a conservative pastor? which would have been the better choice? should i listen to the imams? the rabbi's? the brahmins? new age gurus? who should i believe when all these teachings contradict each other? 

what would make me choose one teaching as more superior to another? who can even say what spirituality is, let alone prove it? shouldn't it be enough to not treat people in ways that you wouldn't want to be treated?

i certainly don't begrudge anyone trying to earn an honest living teachings beliefs they sincerely believe to be true. but if there is not a single spiritual teacher on the planet that has extra-ordinary (supernatural) ability then why not just stick to writing books in the form of spiritual hypothesis? why should cohen and wilber get to teach that the pastors and imams are teaching adolescent type myth? who's to really say who's spiritually advanced and who isn't? is there a test one can take? doesn't it all come down to belief? 

to me, the only thing that really pisses me off is when spiritual belief gets used as justification to dominate another living being……too many teacher/student relationships end up looking like that, imo……..

Re: To have a teacher or not

Re: To have a teacher or not

While I really don't like to use the word despise, SoB -
I agree with you whole-heartedly.
I think it is so wrong to charge for spiritual teaching -
I am often just so astonished at the information people charge for -
when here on Gaia, we just share.
When in my life- I just share -even though I have been told I could charge for
my “services'!
I do not understand and yet neither do I understand the theory of some,
that if they DON'T pay for it -it can't be correct!!

Oh it so makes me wonder!!!
S

Re: To have a teacher or not

beautiful, arpita!

i realized the other day, that we are ever refining our technologies toward a more perfect purgatory ;-)

and i work as a therapist who is more truly a teacher, and feeling a bit mixed up in the role. Therapy within the mental health system has become increasingly shaped to the agendas of the state and corporate money-changers. So goals are more targeted to very specific presenting problems and parsed in terms of weeks. And the truth that wants out becomes less palatable or stuffable into categories in a timely manner. It is a life transition, to turn toward the deeps and beyond, and not easily reduced to frequencies and intensities of tantrums, or tears, to measure success or failure.

i have learned that life teaches us perfectly, as each move provides perfect feedback. But it does require some astuteness, and humility! There is much of getting it all wrong! But truth's resonance is unmistakable, once felt. So it is not difficult to know who speaks it.

Truth is a whole, and is more likely perceived by wholes. If a person sees Truth, it is impossible to not share, with the whole heart. Thus we all become teachers, as we deepen our understanding.

If not, nothing happens except embellishment of what is thought to be certain, for whatever self-serving gain. Hierarchies are pretty good for that! Those on top pretty much get to call the shots, as long as those beneath do not eat them ;-)

but hierarchies are really about people agreeing how beautiful and fine are the emperor's new clothes…. the emperor is always a hopeless case, as long as he reigns!

as they say (sort of ;-), it is easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle, than convince a teacher they are not wise…

Re: To have a teacher or not

arpita, Mr, andrew, Dov, sandy:

arpita: what we teach others through our relationships and actions may not be what we thought we might be teachings… depends on the degree of awareness of our own psyche and how we relate (or react) in any particular situation…


Important point. I also thought it was good to link in psychotherapists with teachers (it would be cool to hear Mike on this point, as that is his field), especially since many spiritual teachers have a hard time appreciating the benefits of psychotherapy.


Mr: yes, our experience must confirm that there can be no “one size fits all” in the realm of spiritual learning.

andrew: I don't see it as choosing one teaching as superior to another but more as what resonates best with each person. When you read Wilber, for instance, it often just makes sense, eh? There must always be a significant intuitive element. 

As to domination of one person over another, that's a tricky area of the whole “master/disciple” relationship. But best for someone like Joshua who is happily with a teacher to respond to that, I think.

Dov and sandy: one of the things I find so delightful about Judaism is how clear it can be about certain things, like teaching of Torah without making a profit. I always think, though, that God is not limited by our selfishness and that even in these questionable ways, people can learn important things they may not learn otherwise. 

mary, “easier to get a camel through the eye of a needle” - as a teacher, one may value one's wisdom as great wealth one has, so I would agree that is an excellent application of that saying. 

It's good to hear from people who are teachers, like you. I hope we hear from more.
. 
We've discussed these issue a number of times, it might be interesting to look back at some of the discussions:

AWAKENING: A Multi-Billion Dollar Industry


Are You Ready?



The Path of Integral Spirituality



Non-Duality/Oneness is an Ego Game

Re: To have a teacher or not

Good point, Nicole,

Re: To have a teacher or not

The best teachers you will ever realize are those who had no intent to teach and we learn in this way all our lives.

Unfortunately, realization of the teacher's status often does not dawn upon us until many years after the lesson has been learned. Teachers come in and out of our life, but we deny their status, as we compulsively seek out the priest, rabbi, guru, master. In refusing to surrender our model of teaching, we learn little, other than the conventional curriculum. Is it any wonder why there are so few “enlightened” ones and those who are authentic seemed to have had no teacher.

Doesn't matter though, you're learning whether you like it or not and learning everyday from teachers who you'll deny have anything to teach you. Ha!

When you choose to sit at the feet of the “guru” you will get what you expect and little more than that since the ego is prepared for it. Its the unprepared spontaneous moments of our lives in which we learn beyond what can be taught by any exalted ego-self that has taken on the title of teacher or master.

How do you estimate the merit of the teacher if not by a scale you've devised? If that's the case, and you've have determined the teacher's “merit,” then why not teach yourself?

A psychotherapist has no investment in your spirit or your soul, but is entirely concerned with your functioning. Of course, that applies only to those trained in the science of psychology and accredited as such, since anyone can basically call themselves a “psychotherapist.”

I am a little more concerned with hierarchies since they tend to structure our experience of 'reality'. The best teaching environment is one of perfect equality and I tend to suppose that Truth will only be realized in such a 'classroom.' I think it rather funny how we model our spiritual 'learning' upon the same structure as the public school system. Unfortunately, the public school system is failing its students the same as our collective spirituality. Collectively, there appears to be little results from either.

Maybe we need to restructure the classroom?

Peace Angels,
mikeS

Re: To have a teacher or not

oh yes oh yes
restructure the classroom and curriculum… and even further back - restructure the very view of mainstream society - the parents of the children…

i hope this is happening - in the incredibly slow way that it seems to be happening  - through generations of changing views…

hi Mike - i am a little suprised at your comment about psychotherapists having no investment in the spirit or soul… because imo - functioning, awareness techniques, are integrally linked to what you may consider “soul” or “spirit” (whatever they are)…  spiritual is all about relative functioning in my view… an uncovering - the allowing of the unlearning… if a relationship with a good psychotherapist (and i realize that the range of “psychotherapists” is as broad as the range of “spiritual teachers”) is forged then a lot of unlearning can happen freeing up energy to see other choices, use energy in different ways, and also giving space to see other perspectives - to allow the release and relaxation into that “surrender place” that seems central to “spiritual” experience …  but for me - i use the word spiritual just to help communicate - but really - i do make the distinction between mundane and spiritual… 

When you choose to sit at the feet of the “guru” you will get what you expect and little more than that since the ego is prepared for it. Its the unprepared spontaneous moments of our lives in which we learn beyond what can be taught by any exalted ego-self that has taken on the title of teacher or master.

How do you estimate the merit of the teacher if not by a scale you've devised? If that's the case, and you've have determined the teacher's “merit,” then why not teach yourself?

this two statements are interesting to me.  for yes - there are great teachers in our lives that do not have any title and teach just by the way they are and relate…
but you know - it is possible that some people that call themselves teachers could actually teach something… even if they DO have a title, even if they get royalties from a book, even if they have ten, or a couple of hundred, or thousands of students.  why exclude this possibility?
if someone has a strong urge “to sit at the feet of a guru” then why not?  it's part of the learning… it's part of seeing one's internal conditioned structures …. or not… that is if there is dissillusionment and nothing is learned, or if the teachings are just simply conceptualized and serve to reinforce the ego-self … which happens.  but that is how we function, that is how we relate - that is how we learn - through that ego-self.  ego-self learns first that it may be wise to unlearn… but the unlearning is not directly related to ego-self… so it is extremely simple and extremely difficult.  (in my view)

why not teach myself?  i do by watching the workings of my own thoughts.  but sometimes, if a teacher comes around then i might be curious, i feel drawn to sit in a room and hear the person speak… maybe just once, maybe more than that.  the merit of a teacher that i can discern IS based on my personal experience to date… same as a psychotherapist would be (if i wanted to see one). 

for me personally - i mostly go it alone without day to day interaction with a spiritual teacher  - but i do not limit myself to that.  for me - i look at all that arises in my field of experience… seeing it with curiosity… being open to possibilites… whether it is the old lady with permed hair that walks by and meets my gaze  - or the buddhist guy up the hill that comes down once a month for groceries…

nice discussion.
thanks everyone.

Re: To have a teacher or not

if the question was should i get an acting teacher, or a golf pro to help refine my swing, or seek the aid of a professor in my chosen field of inquiry; then yes, seek out the help you need…..

but in the minefields of what has become spirituality/religion on this planet i don't think it's as cut and dried. who's to say that your present spiritual teacher isn't the next david koresh? or the next teacher charged with sexual impropriety? and of course there is the pesky issue of reality! who really knows what it is? if you have 2 spiritual teachers with opposing ontologies then how on earth does one choose? the buddhist/christian perspectives on god might be an example of this in-congruency.
it certainly be much easier to make these choices if god continued to strike dead all the hucksters and charlatans; but alas, the e.i. benefits in heaven are good. and besides, which god would really want anything to do with this gong show planet anyway?LOL give us free will and then get the hell out of here seems just as likely!)

and don't even get me going on the 'we're not allowed to show our supernatural ability.' come on guys, we can handle it! it's not as if the stakes arn't pretty high here on ole casino earth. maybe it's time the spiritual masters reassessed their strategies concerning us monkeys…

give 'em hec dov!lol

nicole: wilber smilber!lol

it's good to here you back in the mix mike! where the hell is ben? ben, stop your brooding and get back here!)))))))))

Re: To have a teacher or not

andrew: Yes, it's great to have Mike back. Ben? Good question. I suspect none of the current conversations have grabbed his attention. Wilber Smilber? :) I'm shocked! :P

Dov, I think you're right, we are always “moving on”, and that's healthy.

arpita, very thoughtprovoking post. To me, we have been too prone too often to fall into compartmentalising, whereas the spiritual, mental and physically cannot be easily unravelled.

Love,

Nicole

Re: To have a teacher or not

I am a firm believer that LIFE is the greatest teacher, so whether you have a physical being guiding you or you just pay very close attention to your actions and their consequences, your bound to learn something.

Re: To have a teacher or not

Well said, Grimm. The best teacher avails us nothing unless we pay attention!

Re: To have a teacher or not

Teachers come in all forms-Live ones–books-DVD's.
There is a saying that when the student is ready the teacher will appear.
I have found this to be true, especially in the last few years.
David dorian appeared when I was in real need of someone to turn my life around, as did Rodney yee. I did not have to look far for them. My yoga teacher Stephnie showed up when I was ready for her too.
We have to keep our eyes and ears out for our “teachers' . They come when we lease expect it.

Re: To have a teacher or not

Good point, Liz. Teachable moments, as they say.

Re: To have a teacher or not

I agree with Grimm and anyone else further up who said this. Everything is a teacher. Some of us need a human teacher or a human teacher we can listen to to teach us to listen to ourselves.
There is a story in many traditions of 3 students who are told to do something where no one will see them do the thing.
Only the 3rd student never does it because s/he realizes that s/he will always know. They are the awakened one.
If you need a specific teacher go for it. If you learn from the world know that the Sufi saying and lots of others is for those who are seeking to learn from everything.

Re: To have a teacher or not

right, iljung.

it seems to me what happens is some have such a wonderful experience with a teacher that they want everyone else to have that experience too, not realising that it is not the time for many for that, or that that teacher may not be the right one for others.

Re: To have a teacher or not

Do we need a teacher?  That depends on what we are trying to learn.  There is spirituality, and then there is spirituality.

If we are trying to learn a specific set of morals, and a path of ethical actions then a teacher is a damn fine thing.  Someone who has more experience applying the principles in question is always helpful.

Are we trying to develop certain facets of ourselves with techniques and tips handed down through a lineage?  Again, a teacher is valuable if only to help us navigate the charted obstacles and dangers of the particular tradition.

Are we trying to know what we are?  Well, no one can communicate that.  We must look for ourselves.  Having a good pointer from a teacher helps. and having someone who we can check in with to make sure we are on the right track is very helpful.

Are we doing all three?  Well, hopefully we will be able to tell at any given moment where are focus is, and seek appropriate guidance.

Re: To have a teacher or not

good points. it certainly would depend on what we are trying to learn, and why…