Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

In another discussion someone presented the idea that “ego” is not a “real thing”, but just a fragment of imagination invented so people don't need to take responsibility of their own actions.
“Ego made me do it”.
“I would not have responded that way, but I couldn't stop my ego”.
“Ego spins us around and gets us to do things”
“Ego got me in trouble…”

In stead of discussing the idea, he was attacked and then ignored. Obviously his idea was too revolutionary, too scary, too close to the truth. People don't want to let go of an idea that is such a handy excuse.

I believe the same way as he does. I don't think there are different layers of me, I think I am fully responsible of everything I do, feel, think, experience, want and say. “Id” didn't make me do anything, “Ego” didn't make me do anything, my “Higher Self” didn't make me do anything. I did something. *I*. As long as I live in this skin, I'm indivisible. One cannot say where Id starts and Ego ends. I am one. It is me who has instincts, feelings, ideas, wishes, dreams, thoughts, desires, will. It is *I* who wants to become a better person and spirituality. I am a unique person, individual, with my own name, my own path, my own destination and destiny, with my own feelings and experiences.

I also believe that we are born as individual human beings for a reason. I believe that if we were not supposed to live as ourselves, we would not have been born.
Ego is the conscious self, the *I* who feels, thinks and wills, the *I* who experiences things, who counteracts with the environment and the other *I*s of the planet, who reacts and who acts. Ego is the *I* who lives within my skin, who sees through my eyes, who walks in my shoes, who does things through my body, who bears my name, who was born, grows and lives as me.
Ego is me, I am ego.

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

I agree with you.  I am made up of various facets, but in the end, I am one person, one spirit, one soul… one being living this existence.  I cannot blame anyone else for what happens or what I do.  Even if a foreign entity is attached to me, it is my job to figure out how to get rid of it.  Any destruction left in its wake must be dealt with by me.  In short, I am responsible for all my actions, feelings and emotions.

Blessings!
-yvette

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Dear Ketutar and yvette,

This is fascinating for me from a number of perspectives.

First, in terms of ego and responsibility, I made the point yesterday (which you may not agree with, that's ok), that the people in this discussion were each trying to grapple with the issue of responsibility, but from different perspectives.

Second, looking at how these concepts are being dealt with on other parts of Gaia, ego came up in Mike's new pod in this discussion Veteran of a thousand Psychic Wars, so perhaps it is at times terminology that gets in the way of us understanding each other. Some words are so heavily loaded, emotionally and with many different possible interpretations, that it is a minefield to navigate.

Third, I would like to look at the issue of “being ignored” because you have brought it up before, and clearly it is important for you. I'd like to offer another perspective.

Perhaps the response was this: one person engaged deeply and repeatedly concerning ego and bowed out of the discussion because she felt that she was being unhelpful. Two people responded strongly that they agreed with the perspective. Another (myself) responded in terms of the challenges of discussing ego. Three others came back with their own take on ego. Still others disagreed and presented their perspectives. 

The conversation also (as conversations do) split into other subdiscussions - one sparked by your excellent post from Tolkien, others into other aspects people veered into including the Flying Spaghetti Monster :).

Obviously his idea was too revolutionary, too scary, too close to the truth. People don't want to let go of an idea that is such a handy excuse.

Of course, depending on the perspective about the premise, the perspective of conclusions based on it will vary.

I hope this is helpful, Ketutar. It is not meant as a criticism of your view but another way of looking at it, a way that I am trying to understand this phenomenon of feeling ignored for myself as it often comes up on Gaia as a reason that people disengage from discussions.

I welcome your thoughts and the thoughts of others here.

Love,

Nicole

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

how can people even blame their ego for the things they do? these people are conscious..they know what they are doing. i think that its just a pathetic thing to do, to blame something on your ego. arent those games for children?  aside from that, this is a very insightful and well written post :D

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Welcome to our discussion, Suni. I've written quite a detailed response above, perhaps you would like to look at it, too, and let me know what you think.

Love,

Nicole

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

hi nicole! that is quite the post there. ego isnt always a bad thing, right? there are some things, like math, that i just dont quite grasp. when i think about ego, i think about stuck up CEO's and ebenezer scrooges. i dont know..sometimes i can create masterful responses like the one you posted, and other times, like this, i just can even pull my thoughts together to form a good post. im rather scatterbrained. the artist complex i suppose. you know how they say that artists are always troubled? i dont think thats true. my best friend is an artist, and a very talented one at that, and she isnt troubled. at least from what i can see.

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Ketutar,

“In stead of discussing the idea, he was attacked and then ignored.”

It wasn't ignored as much as it was dismissed (and attacked) as something my ego was hot about…

I would much more have wanted some discussion of the perspective I brought, than the mental lashing I received.

But it didn't happen.

Dov

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Dov, thank you for elaborating on your earlier thoughts. This is very helpful in mapping out your thoughts on ego and responsibility.

We've talked about compartmentalising before, in terms of body, mind and spirit instead of considered the human as a whole. 

I find this very interesting:  

This tendency to ascribe negative entries to 'ego' and positive entries to 'higher-self' that is often coupled with the statement that the 'higher-self' is the True Me,  


This brings to mind for me shadow-work, what are your thoughts on that? Here for link on the shadow: www.reconnections.net/shadow2.htm 

Shalom,

Nicole

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Dov, this is great. That was, I believe the point Jung and others who talk about the shadow are trying to make. It is not “bad” but it is the suppressing or denying that can have serious negative consequences. Jung used to talk about the “gold” that was hidden in the shadow that is being pushed down.

The point isn't not to express anger or not to acknowledge my fear of spiders, it's to express myself in a manner that is beneficial to me and do not infringe on others.


Do you remember when it was all the rage to “get out our anger” by pounding on cushions or shouting or whatever? :) Actually, venting is usually counterproductive for everyone involved, in my experience, anyway.


I don't know if you've seen this blog I found last year when I was trying to figure out these concepts. The writer uses a Star Trek episode from the Original Series to illustrate Yetzer HaRa and Yetzer HaTov - http://www.mindspring.com/~dbholzel/1006.html

Peace,

Nicole

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Dov, I think we need to be heard. Probably I should have said there are more healing ways to deal with the feelings than simply venting. There are a number of troubles with venting including that feelings can simply get dumped, leaving someone dumped on, and someone else just empty for the moment but not healed.

With the right person there to respond, I can see it could be somewhat helpful. Maybe we have different things in mind, too.

Peace,

Nicole.

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Hi Suni!

No, I don't think ego is always a bad thing. Of course, it all depends on how we define ego, but perhaps we will leave that to the side for now. I'm thinking about what you are saying about having trouble pulling your thoughts together. That happens to me sometimes too, I look at all the long well-written posts and am hard-pressed to come up with a response to hold a candle to them. 

But then again, the “inner critic” can be fiercely at work, telling one how inadequate one is. 

Generalisations are tricky, aren't they? Few statements could possibly be true of any group of people at all times. Artists are always troubled? No, I wouldn't say that's true. Certainly there have been correlations drawn between genius and mental instability, and many artists are extremely brilliant, but it's not a simple one to one correlation by any means.

Peace,

Nicole

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

yeah..i have a tough inner critic. im very picky. especially with any of my art or writing. but that pickiness is useful to other people; im a good editor :) i still dont really get what an ego really is, but maybe thats a good thing?

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Good point, Suni, being picky can be very useful :) 

It could be a good thing, not getting what an ego is! Let's see what others are saying about it.

Love,

Nicole

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

hi all
i don't mind the term ego.  i think it can be quite useful in talking about the human process.  although - from a personal perspective - when i talk - i would say ego talks.  ego = me.  so there is no separation - just two words that mean the same thing (to me).  so in this respect i agree with Ketutar and Dov. 

where ego is useful to me as a concept to use - is when the general process of human conditioning are discussed - the psychology of humanness - where we can see and describe the processes that occur that formulate our personalities, our choices, our reactions, our judgments… how we talk and relate with each other.

i don't see the use of the word ego as a childish excuse (“oh the ego made me do it”) - i see the use of the word more as a recognition that there are subconscious and unconscious processes occuring in me and in everyone i know.  we are responsible for our choices, reactions, interactions - but always in context to our conditioning - and that process may not be something that the person (me included) is aware of.  so ego is a useful term for me to use as “I” explore this.

communication through a forum like this is tricky.  because we cannot read each other's nuances - we cannot note body language and tone of voice.  so it is very possible that misunderstandings will occur with how a particular phrase or comment will be taken.   a person could become triggered by how something is written and believe he or she was attacked - when perhaps that was not the intention at all of the writer.  using this practical example - it is conveniant to use a term like ego.  ego was triggered and reacted.  you could also say he or she was triggered and reacted - it does not really matter - except that using the word ego is less personal.  the he or she is not blamed or judged - it is simply noted that a pychological process occured.  that's all.

when you read this post - how do you react?  do you get a sense of my calm demeanor - or do you believe something else is happening?

regards
christine

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

hi dov
thanks for the clarifications… 
and just to clarify my view - i personally believe that ego just simply means me.  and i believe that it encompasses all of my actions, interactions, reactions - both the “negative” and the “positive”.  i also believe that “higher self” as it is used by many people is a conceptual fabrication of wishful thinking - or the ego (me) finding ways to feel good, or to reinforce an ideal, or subconsciously seek approval or sense of security….
however, other people may use the term higher self to point to the connection with G-d… and simply use that inadequate term to talk about the divine nature within.
more later….
christine

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

christine, just wanted to pop in here to thank you for this and all your contributions. this post is so clear, concise and well put. i have also been enjoying your posts over in Mike's pod.

I'm really looking forward to the “more later”.

peace,

Nicole

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

hi there…
and i would like to reiterate the entire comment quoted above - that i also said

“however, other people may use the term higher self to point to the connection with G-d… and simply use that inadequate term to talk about the divine nature within.”
 
also note i said believe that “higher self” … is a conceptual fabrication…
i used the word believe intentionally.  because i know that many people believe quite differently.  they have their own view of what a higher self is - and at least some of them believe that their experience justifies their view.  i have no “proof” in regard to my view  other than what i have gathered from my conditioned experience.  same with another with a different view.  they have conditioned experience… but different conditions… so different view.

this is what makes it so difficult to communicate through a forum where people of different cultures, families - with various ways of functioning, education, maturity, fears, attachments, indoctrinations come together and attempt to speak their understanding about any one topic (like ego for example).  also, many (well, actually, i would say most) people are not aware of the extent of how conditions (cultural, familial, education, maturity, fears, attachments, indoctrinations etc) have shaped how they understand things, what is believed, and how actions and reactions arise when relating to others. 

anyway - it sure is an interesting  to be human - relating to each other as best we can under our differing personal experiences…

conflict seems … inevitable - especially if we are honest in expressing our views (knowing that our views are subject to change with perhaps deepening or changing perspectives).  and such conflict can be an instrument of quite profound insight as one's perspective deepens…

…or conflict can just be plain difficult (and painful) when there is no elasticity in the walls of “my view”.

warm regard to dov, nicole, suni, yvette, ketutar and anyone else i missed here in this thread

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Dov, what a delightful picture - being Hogwarts with all those moving staircases and people rushing about :)

christine, i like the way you underlined how you qualified your statement about the Higher Self. Everything you say about these forums and our challenges can't be said too often, I think, because it is easy to forget in the heat of discussion of how profound our disconnect has become.

The words I believe evoked for me a song by Sarah Maclachlan: Elsewhere

here to listen

I love the time and in between
The calm inside me
In the space where I can breathe
I believe there is a
Distance I have wandered
To touch upon the years of
Reaching out and reaching in
Holding out holding in

I believe
This is heaven to no one else but me
And I'll defend it as long as I can be
Left here to linger in silence
If I choose to
Would you try to understand

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

ya know ya can't start a thread like this and not let me get my 2 cents in;)

okay then, first off, in my 49 years i have never heard once; not once, anyone blame anything about their life on their ego. so really, i am at a loss to know what you folks are talking about.) but i'd agree there is no shortage of blame out there…….

on responsibility- how was i responsible for c. manson or oppenheimer triggering the nuclear age. i have news for ya folks, one can only take responsibility for the 3 feet in any direction from ones heart. and even that is driven by genes, memes, circumstance, etc. one can only do the best they can in any given life situation. period! your all starting to sound like catholics laying on a massive guilt trip.lol

i think the subconscious is a fact! nicole recently posted a rather sneaky vest trick that was a play on the subconscious. the western categories i believe are useful, whether they exist concretely in reality is another matter in which i am not qualified to answer. but i would agree that the most efficient and healthy among us have a strong integrated circuitry, so to speak………..

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Oh? I have :-)

“EGO is the root cause of all evils. It draws us away from purity and glory. Sans Ego, we realize our inner power to the full.”

“Ego causes most of our problems. Ego wants to win the argument, prefers his opinion, rubbishes the opposing side. Ego causes wars…”

“…when he says something profound… my ego tells me I know [it already], and the message doesn’t sink in.”

“The ego is always looking for some trouble.”

“The source of all misery, anger, anguish, is hidden in you, your ego.”

“ego causes all misery”

“Ego makes it all a problem.”

“The root cause of all human suffering is ego and it influences man's emotions, thoughts and actions.”

“we are to treat the ego as an enemy. It is dangerous, calculating, not real, causes pain, unnecessary, unspiritual, desperate for attention and at the very least, a mental disorder or the source of one of the seven deadly sins known as pride.”

“the ego can create havoc and does.”

“[Reality] is the one thing we can't get away from, no matter how unsatisfactory the ego finds it to be, or how mightily it[ego] argues for it [reality] to show up more in line with its [ego's] thinking…

“people often aren't aware of how much the ego controls their lives.”

“Ego is the embodiment of evil.”

“…someone who has been hijacked by ego”

“the juggernaut of ego is what creates the great divide”

“My ego is the cause for most if not all of my unhappiness in life. My ego causes me problems every day.”

“the ego can cause you to lose your cool, to say and do things that are not constructive, or based on reason”

“Being dragged around by this ego was not comfortable”

“When ego fails, it looks for someone to blame. That someone has been everyone, including me.”

“wherever egos wander they leave footprints of contention and blood on the tracks”

“ego is what happened to the human race to get us kicked out of the garden.”

“you can feel [the ego] rise to an argument”

“[the ego] spins us”

“…the ego tries to press the ignore button…”.

“…the ego clings to in the perceptions of reality”

“my ego made me blind”

“My ego made me fat”

“My ego made me do it.”

“When people sin, don't they sometimes say, 'The devil (ego) made me do it?'”

In all these examples, ego is seen as a thing separate from me, something “hidden in me”, something with its own will, intentions, agenda, even own, individual actions. It is not *I* who react to something *I* misunderstood, and therefore *I* start arguing, no, it's my EGO who reacts, EGO who misunderstood, EGO who argues… *I* am just standing there, watching as the EGO, the EMBODIMENT of evil, Great Satan, the Devil, does all these horrible things. Not me, my EGO. I didn't say those horrible things to you, it was my EGO. As everyone knows, the ego never apologizes, never tries to communicate functionally and constructively, the ego is never kind, humble, forgiving and gentle, and never wishes to sacrifice itself for the sake of peace. So when “your ego” said and did all those horrible things, I shouldn't be expecting YOU to take responsibility for your ego's doings and apologize, after all, YOU did nothing wrong. YOU did nothing YOU should apologize for. Besides, it's only “my ego” that is hurt, because “my ego” chose to misunderstand and misinterpret and chose to get hurt… there really wasn't even any REAL insult, only an imaginary illusion of an insult, something “my ego” invented to cause trouble… and also, it's only “my ego” who expects you to apologize - and THAT THING should NEVER get ANYTHING it wants! So there so!

Pure bull.

I don't think one has overthrown one's “ego” when one is grown up enough to take full responsibility of one's actions and say “Yes, I said those things. I'm sorry.” It's still *I* doing things.
I don't think one gets ever “there” as long as one shuffles all the “negative” on someone or something else - like the ego. *I* have to choose not to do the “bad” things. *I* have to choose stop reacting and start acting. Or not. *I* have to be responsible of my reactions, my feelings, my understanding, and how I choose to act upon these.

Ego is the sense of individuality, and - hello! WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS.
I am not you. You are not me.
This is a richness, diversity is a good thing, fertile ground to inventions and insights.

There is something called “balance”… in this issue it means that ME and YOU have to be in balance. *I* may not be the most important neither the least important person in the Universe, but just as important as everyone else.
My feelings matter, my sensations matter, my experiences matter, my opinions matter. So do yours :-)
I matter. So do you :-)

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Ketutar:

I don't think one gets ever “there” as long as one shuffles all the “negative” on someone or something else - like the ego. *I* have to choose not to do the “bad” things. *I* have to choose stop reacting and start acting. Or not. *I* have to be responsible of my reactions, my feelings, my understanding, and how I choose to act upon these. 

Ego is the sense of individuality, and - hello! WE ARE ALL INDIVIDUALS. 
I am not you. You are not me. 
This is a richness, diversity is a good thing, fertile ground to inventions and insights.

There is something called “balance”… in this issue it means that ME and YOU have to be in balance. *I* may not be the most important neither the least important person in the Universe, but just as important as everyone else. 
My feelings matter, my sensations matter, my experiences matter, my opinions matter. So do yours :-) 
I matter. So do you :-)


Well said. I think in what Dov was saying and in my response just now we were working with part of what it means to be responsible for our own feelings in a discussion, and how we act on them. So we all matter, but we don't always feel validated, but awareness and responsibility for that can go a long way in helping us to open more to others rather than retreating into ourselves.


This is such a great discussion. Thank you for initiating it!

Love,

Nicole

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

hi ketutar, um, if you read what i said carefully you would find that i said that i've never met anyone in my life that blamed their life's problems on the ego….
but, you know, it's true that i am not a psycho-analyst or an eastern guru. perhaps it's more common in those fields………

for what it's worth the notion sounds a tad silly to me…………..

but hey, one mans silliness is another mans conspiracy theory:)

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

andrew, the subconscious trick, that was a fun thing David posted in Integral Archipelago - Take the Derren Brown Challenge!!!


Dov, what you say about online interaction and validation is very good and I'd like to add this - that in seeking to be heard, we sometimes come with very specific expectations of how we want to be heard. So, the feeling of validation doesn't necessarily come even with some people agreeing with us. Discussions have a life of their own and when the energy goes away from what I said, I may feel left behind and ignored even if the discussion continues to be related to what I said.

Even if we are very direct about what we are looking for, as Bjorn was in the original thread, and people try to meet that need, we can be very disappointed. It depends on the specificity of what is being sought and how well that fits with what's happening in the way the people are participating.

At times I am looking for a specific response and not even aware of what it is, just that I feel let down by how people respond.

So, if I know what I what, and am vulnerable and admit that I am really looking for x or y in the discussion from the rest of you, I not only expose myself, but I risk that the rest of the people in the discussion will have their own ideas. Darn! :) Why doesn't everyone fall in line?

The good outcome for me is feeling the disappointment and learning something from it, growing from it and being freed about to deeper relating with others. It's an ongoing process though. I have a long way to go.

Love,

Nicole




  

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

hi all
Dov - yes .  i agree.  it is interesting to me that there is both the importance of being a separate independant individual and the neediness of the individual to be validated.  oh - speaking of validation  - i want to say that i enjoy your input very much, even when your perspective is quite different than mine (maybe because it is different than mine).

maybe if the notion of interdependance was better integrated (because it is a fact anyway) then there wouldn't be so much neediness.  (we all need each other - by neediness i refer to the feeling that our grasping, longing, fearful sense that our needs are not met …. that we are somehow alone)

yes Ketutar - thanks for your views and starting this interesting discussion.

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Dov, thanks so much for linking your blog. I ended up in a way responding more to this post while answering RL's post in the original discussion over here. 

You are very much appreciated!

Love,

Nicole 

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

I agree. Western psychology divides up awareness into ego, superego, id, higher self, sub-conscious…Spiritual philosophers divide it into awareness in which the mind everything else is contained, and the mind is ego and thoughts, and the ego is just a belief. Krishnamurti, Jung, and Sanskrit philosophies take a more gestalt view.

Anyway we look at it, the divisions are artificial–just a pedagogical aid; it's easy to forget that the divisions are artificial, and then the ego is looked as some sort of separate entity in us.

I experience awareness. In awareness, thoughts and perceptions pop up. That's all there is. I don't see one ego; I see many ego-roles–and they are all beliefs–thoughts and memory. The ego-beliefs are strong–strong enough to make “me” do things and react in certain ways, until the ego-beliefs are seen through. They are still my ego-beliefs and very much my responsibility. The divisions that psychologists create, I haven't experienced at all. So too the divisions that spiritualists create–when people use words like “One” and “infinite” and “eternal”–I wonder if they speak of direct experience or it's just repetition of others' words; or perhaps my experience has not deepened enough yet.

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Good points about artificial divisions and “jargon” - we want to connect through our language but sometimes it alienates instead when we use words that don't have meaning for those who hear or read them.

Peace,

Nicole

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Hi Dov,

“Awareness” as a concept in Christianity - I would think it's there in the mystical stream of the faith, perhaps in a different form but related. I don't know much about Jewish mysticism, but is it possible that there is something like that there?

I think these categories can be helpful to a certain point for some, and that it can be a way to analyse without off-loading responsibility. Don't we all need to find what makes sense for us, Dov? Even if it looks crazy to others…

Shalom,

Nicole. 

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

That's one of the biggest problems indeed with any of these conversations, knowing what the words mean. And then considering certain words are triggers for us - you have your trigger words, I have mine -  the problem becomes compounded. 

But just as we have trigger words, we have favourite words. When one of my favourite words is one of your trigger words - ouch. 

Now, as to deciding whether someone is trying to sound more enlightened than he or she really is - that would be tough in a forum like this, for me anyway. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. We all come from different backgrounds, we've had very different experiences in life and are working with different basic assumptions. 

One of the challenges when the conversation seems to get muddy for whatever reason is to keep exploring together to get clarity, light, without generating too much heat. 

Yes, it would be easier without all these conflicting approaches. But it seems inevitable unless we only talk with people exactly like us.

Shalom,

Nicole

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

The irony of all this is that 9 times out of 10 we know exactly why we do or act/re-act in a certain way and 9 times out of 10 are able to choose our action/re-action in terms of out-ward action.


I've been thinking a lot about actions/reactions, moderating etc, as it has come up a fair bit in the past few days in different contexts here (and in the meeting I chaired Sunday). Because of discussions here but also in other places, observing when discussions completely derail. I'm not as sure that we are all as aware as what you describe, unless we really enjoy those online fights (I know some people do, but not everyone looks to be having a good time in these flame wars).

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Everything in our lives starts and ends with us, there is no way around this.  There are  alot of ways to play with our own roles in our creations and miscreations in our lives, many ways to sepreate and fragment our inner world.  But at the end of the day it always comes back to us, and what we are conciously and subconciously creating.
Those who are apt to reffer to their unconcious behavior patterns as the reasoning for said choice etc…are also on their roads for self discovery.  And will move along at their own pace and in their own process.  whether or not they get the idea that it all starts and ends with ourselves.  Great topic Ketutar!
Light
mye-

Re: Ego, superego, id, higher self, what not...

Mye, what an interesting perspective! Sorry I missed this before.

Love,

Nicole