Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

Fascinating question. Something I have thought about a fair bit since becoming an Anglican - it's been 23 years now. It's been said of Anglicans that the only thing that cannot be tolerated is intolerance. I don't know if it can still be said, but that's a whole 'nother story…

I went looking for good links on this, but the pickings were slim. I read rants by people determined to prove that intolerance is justified and right when aimed at the intolerant, and left unconvinced.

Perhaps intolerance of the intolerance is a waystation on the road to true tolerance, which is accepting that intolerance is a part of you, but not giving in to the energy of it to disdain the intolerant.

What do you think? 

Shalom,

Nicole


 

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

Dov, the trouble with secular societies is they are not always tolerant of religion and spirituality. But religious societies are probably less tolerant of anything but the accepted religion.

How can we find the right balance, I wonder?

Shalom,

Nicole

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

True, Dov. But in some places the hurt from religion goes very deep, and the challenge is huge. This is our situation here in Quebec.

Shalom,

Nicole

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

Wouldn't that be wonderful! How long will it take though…

Sigh,

Nicole

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

Healing the hurt is definitely the first step and not in a made-up artificial process, real healing, natural, organic.

These labels create pictures in my mind (yours too?).  However, real healing has a feel to it, one that we all know from an early age.  On this we can agree, right?

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

In some areas, intolerance can be a good thing. One can be intollerant of a disease (like cancer) that invades one's body. One can be intolerant of harmful people (terrorists or pirates for example) and kick them out of one's country. When it comes to religion however, the big three (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) preach tolerance. I believe this is a good policy for religion.

James Baldwin author of Native Son once wrote that “racial isolation brings about cultural deprivation”. I believe it is true for religions. religious isolation severly limits one's world view and thereby deprives one of knowing and understanding thier neighbors. When religious communities stand for intolerance it could be from a fear that members of their flock might be lured away if they are exposed to other religions.

I have studied many religions and have found perals of wisdom in all of them. I have strenghtened my understanding of humanity and enriched my life by doing so. I am a pretty tolerant person, especially when it comes to religion. I also believe that The Lord is tolerant otherwise, those wwouldn't all the non believers of the chosen religion be smited?

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

Dov, I have totally not got a handle on religion in Sweden. How did you go from it being illegal not to belong to the National Lutheran Church to a secular humanist society in such a short time?

Shalom,

Nicole

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

Ahh. I think we might have misunderstanding - Sweden isn't a secular humanist society - it's a social democratic society. Also - the Royal Family has to be Evangelical High Lutherans.

I am a secular humanist, despite being devoutly religious :D I know it's a contradiction, but I cannot explain it better.

Shalom,
Dov

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

Fascinating, as Spock would say!

Shalom,

Nicole

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

Heemes, hi! Natural, organic healing. Sounds good, still looking for more ideas how. Any suggestions?

Mr, perhaps intolerance of cancer or pirates is along the line of what Dov means by being intolerant of religious intolerance, while being very tolerant of all kinds of diversity whether religious or racial. Dov?

Peace,

Nicole

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

Yes, Nicole - that's exactly what I mean :D EXACTLY.

Shalom,
Dov

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

A good friend of mine was struggling with something similar to this not that long ago: is it okay to judge the judgemental (or be prejudiced against the prejudiced, or something like that).

Dov, reading about the National Lutheran Church in Sweden actually made a few puzzle pieces click in my mind (though I couldn't actually find any information about it myself, and being a skeptic about everything, I wouldn't mind a source or two).  My friend's mother, though born after 1952, was raised Lutheran and in Sweden, so her bitter intolerance of religion might be somewhat causal…

I generally go by the philosophy of hate the sin, love the sinner: its okay to be intolerant of intolerance, but its not okay to be intolerant of the intolerant.  At that point, you become a hypocrite.  (Most of the characteristically bad “intolerant” people hate the people).  Its the difference between not associating with fornicators, or not enabling the fornication.  (If you consider this bad… I just threw it out there, that's a discussion for another day).

On the other hand, you could just take the attitude of Tom Lehrer in an introduction to his song National Brotherhood Week: There are some people in this world who do not love their fellow man, and I HATE people like that!

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

Hi Hamilton!

There is an article I've just found about that saying, “hate the sin, love the sinner” -  I think it has a lot of good things to say about how this has been applied in Christian circles and why it has tended not to be helpful, often. See here, as well as here for atheists and overzealousness.

What do you think?

Peace,

Nicole

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

Dov & Nicole & Heemes,

A truly tolerant person is tolerant even of ignorance.  Religious intolerance is ignorance, even if state supported.  A tolerant person hopes always for that blossoming that leads to an understanding that only tolerance will bring true peace to human society.  Peace being an idealist goal still worth striving for. 

Being intolerant  of one who is intolerant is simply a lack of patience with the sometimes slow evolving nature of human beings.  It is a process to reach tolerance.  Some don't complete it in a single human lifetime.  

Some societies seem not to make progress in that regard either, some for even 1,000s of years.  Perhaps Sweden got there “overnight” by morphic resonance, when the 100th monkey made the leap.

Just my perspective on the question,
Deb

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

Dear Deb,

Thank you for sharing your perspective, it is always much appreciated, as I hope you know.

Your words remind me of that saying ”Never ascribe to malice what ignorance will explain”. It is so true that people can be slow to learn, slow to grow and societies can be very slow too. You remind me of my tendency to be impatient.


Hugs,


Nicole

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

Interesting articles, Nicole, but I can honestly say I don't think i take the phrase quite like they do… my views on dealing with people who make questionable choices is much more influenced by al-anon than my church… that the alcoholism isn't the person, its the disease, and the actions of the drunk are not the actions of the person, they are the actions of the disease. So even if we don't approve of the disease and the person when he or she is drunk, we should still love who they are.

Maybe “Hate the sin” is too strong of language… I was thinking about what my mom always says: he's not a bad person, he's just acting badly.
I really feel like I can't word what I'm saying correctly…

The stories those articles talked about were people who were hurt by “hate the sin, not the sinner” types involved pastors who so hated the sin that s/he forgot that he was supposed to be loving the sinner.

But, at risk of over-use of quotes, hate cannot drive out hate - only love can do that (mlk). So while I fully believe that “hate the sin, love the sinner” could be justifiable, it, just like many other figments of truth, has been taken horribly wrong: loving is more important than hating.

Of course, I'm the kind of person who understands things through writing and talking about them, and the more I write, the more I realize that the best way to hate the sin is to avoid it: so no, we cannot intolerate intolerance.

Hmm… I apparently didn't do a good job of reading the atheist one… it's interesting, though I don't think I can think about it enough to decide if I agree or not. As someone who is strongly religious, I *do* often feel like I'm attacked as being unreasonable for random reasons (like not wanting to put up with the kids at school going on a joke “kill the christians” tirade, even if they do insist they were joking).

Alright, I'm rambling now. I guess I've decided my answer is no, you cannot credibly be intolerant of intolerance - but I also have decided that I'm guilty of trying.

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

Hi Hamilton,

We're looking at different aspects of the issue, which is all good. 

Like you, I tend to work things through by talking them through or writing them through. So, it's wonderful to follow your thoughts as you affirm that loving is more important than hating and we cannot intolerate intolerance to your conclusion I guess I've decided my answer is no, you cannot credibly be intolerant of intolerance - but I also have decided that I'm guilty of trying.


The example you bring up about not wanting to put up with the kids at school going on a joke “kill the christians” tirade, even if they do insist they were joking

for me relates back to the sexism thread, where we are talking about how humour tends to be misused in the service of sexism, racism and other forms of intolerance. 

People can and do insist they are just joking. But if it's just a joke, why have a problem with someone not wanting to participate? The fact that you are attacked as unreasonable shows that there is more being invested in that than the kids at school care to admit.


What Dov has been pointing out is that whatever we feel about the attitudes we should or shouldn't have about intolerance, the consequences of intolerance unbridled can be so severe that it is vital not to “tolerate” it.

Does that make a bit more sense?

Blessings,

Nicole

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

The boy who was leading the tirade defended it by saying “I'm a Christian, and I wasn't offended”… religion at my school is pretty much kept quiet, there's a sense that if you are religious, you aren't accepted.  (I did glance over the sexism thread a bit ago)

Yes, that does make more sense… but until he posted about hate crimes, I wasn't really thinking about it that way.  However, I think this goes back to the general idea of religious rights.  As far as I know, in America, its okay to make laws that forbid a practice of a religion, as long as the law applies to everyone and not just the followers of that religion (its okay to say that nobody can marry more than one person, but not okay to say that Mormons can only marry one person, for example).

I think we can view this the same way with intolerance.  It's generally agreed that murder is unjustifiable (except by those who do murder, I suppose).  So, could we still punish murder while still tolerating the reasons?
Don't worry, Dov - I wouldn't want a white supremacist in my living room by any means… or anyone who uses religion to justify murder, for that matter.

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

Hi Hamilton, 

It looks like we have arrived at a good synthesis of views through our discussion. Thank you for persevering!

Would you like to add anything else? Or would anyone else like to share further?

Love,

Nicole

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

Hi Hamilton,

Re: Can one be intolerant of intolerance and still be credible?

Dov, it is indeed! Feel free to start another thread, the more the merrier.

Shalom,

Nicole