Sexism is OK...

It's official: You're allowed to mock men in adverts. Just don't try doing it to womenA television advert that lampoons men as incapable of performingsimple domestic tasks has been cleared by advertising watchdogs. The commercial, for an oven cleaning product, drew 673complaints from viewers who felt it was sexist for portraying men asstupid and lazy.

Sexism is OK... - a Video

ASB Exposed
An Exposé on the Advertising Standards Bureau (Australia)http://vimeo.com/2788853

The point here is the text that appears on the screen.

“The ASB dismissed the complaint because society finds violence against men to be funny.”

Sexism is OK... - a Video

Sexism is not ok, perhaps more so directed against men since it seems to be so easy these days. 

Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Dov,

Nicole

Re: Sexism is OK... - a Video

Re: Sexism is OK... - a Video

And unfortunately, what we see and what we hear does influence how we shape our values.


It's true, Dov, that's how innocent kids learn intolerance.

Shalom,

Nicole

Re: Sexism is OK... - a Video

Re: Sexism is OK... - a Video

Excellent points, Dov.

In The psychology of humor: an integrative approach ,


Some scholars, such as Paul Lewis, argued that degrading forms of sexist and racist humor can serve to legitimize and perpetuate negative stereotypes…


Searching in vain for anti-sexist humour, I stumbled upon this article about Effects of Anti-Sexism Training in Schools


Interested in hearing further thoughts on the above ideas and articles. 


Peace,


Nicole
 

Re: Sexism is OK... - a Video

Sexism is OK... - a Video

That is so upsetting… I am sitting here and my breakfast is on its way up…

Re: Sexism is OK... - a Video

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I agree. I have also noticed this tendency of commercials to portray man as idiots that get fooled around by the women. I suppose it is a counterreaction to the dominance of men through history, that came along with the striving for independence of women. First there were no man doing the laundry on TV, then they did the laundry and now women are the smart independent people in advertising and man dumb and dependent.

Also note the videoclips. People often say women are portrayed as sexually available but that is very untrue. They are portrayed as woman teasing the man, acting horny but with control over the man, the dominant partner. It's like they put their ass into the mans face but act hard to get at the same time.
Maybe women use their sexuality so much because she knows a man usually wants sex with her but can never touch her if she doesn't want to. Because women want to be portrayed as independent and in control and they can only do that through their sexuality. Apparently that is the way to get male attention and keep men 'in check'.

The power of a woman (in the media) lies in her sexuality, for she ( (unconsciously) thinks she) can't have power through anything else.

But then, sex got linked to everything. People nearly talk about 'sexy computers'. Everything good and beautiful is 'sexy'.

I don't like it.

Re: Sexism is OK...

Hi Dov and reneedamstra,

First, welcome to our discussion, reneedamstra. You make some excellent points about the use of sexuality in commercials, drama and comedy. And I agree, the use of sex to sell everything trivialises it while having a manipulative effect on our vulnerabilities.

Dov, I find it disturbing how violence against men in the way you describe is taught to children so that by the time they are still very young, they find it hilarious. Whenever a case such as the ones you mention has come up in the past, I have been bemused and saddened by the lack of shock or censure against the perpetrator. 

It's past time for us to speak up that all sexism and gender violence is wrong. Why should it be hard to understand that men are as worthy of consideration and respect as women?

Peace,

Nicole

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Re: Sexism is OK...

Yes, you're right about the unfortunate “practising outside the dojo”. I was thinking about its use in cartoons and children's movies, though, it is an all-too-common device.

Here's another article about the dangers of sexist humour - again, sexism against women, but just as applicable to male-bashing:

http://hymes.wordpress.com/2007/11/11/exposure-to-sexist-humor-not-harmless-study-says/

Re: Sexism is OK...

(Please forgive my American English spelling :-) ) This advert is undoubtedly sexist, though i find it surprising that the outcry is about anti-male sexism only, as I found the unquestioned association of women with domestic ability and the laugh at the end to be gallingly anti-female, as they reinforce oppressive gender stereotypes.  The fact that the commercial was given a green light, however, has to do with what the actual impact of sexism is.  Isolated cases of hatred or oppressive behavior are not especially damaging to society as a whole.  When things like racism and sexism become institutionalized, that is, enacted in the whole (or most) of a society and assigned normative status (i.e. it's normal for women to perform the housework), is when they become problematic for more than those who are directly affected by a given action.  Basically, it's “acceptable” to portray men as stupid on the advert because there isn't a multi-layered centuries-old social system of oppression in place as there is for women.  The ad doesn't fit into a larger system of oppression, so the actual impact on the general view of men is extremely limited, and not particularly damaging or oppressive.  It's similar to how comedians of color can mock light-skinned people with little to no fear of censure, but a light-skinned comedian is edgy if not downright racist if he or she mocks people with darker skin (here in the States at least).  Although neither is really a good thing, the dark-skinned comedian can get away with it because the social structure favors the light-skinned person in almost every arena, and the comedy routine doesn't pose a serious threat.

The best explanation of this principle I've encountered is the birdcage analogy.  A bird cage is made up of many thin vertical bars.  One of these bars on its own would do little to hold a bird (it could simply fly around the lone bar), but when they're combined in a systematic fashion, they form a cage from which the bird cannot escape.  I'm not trying to defend the ad or the decision - I think the ad is deplorable for several reasons and therefore disagree with the decision to allow it (though this brings up other issues of censorship and freedom of expression) - but this is why ”Sexism is OK…” as long as it's directed at men, at least in the eyes of the decision-makers.

Again, too, this advert is much more degrading with regards to women.  Yes, the man is openly mocked, but the underlying implication is that women, by default and without question, are skilled at domestic labor and normally perform the majority of it (it's easy “so he can do more”).  Also, the man is portrayed as an idiot, but a happy idiot.  While this is not a particularly favorable depiction, I think the woman is depicted in a much less favorable light - she doesn't even smile and is, frankly, a bitch.

Now, on to testicular assault…
Sexual assault laws are severely broken everywhere, by virtue of their existence - they're an attempt to treat a symptom without addressing the underlying disease, the symptom being inordinate degrees of sexual violence perpetrated against women by men.  The greater trauma experienced (and I'm speaking in generalities here) by women experiencing a sexual assault as opposed to a non-sexual assault has partly to do with physiology our brains maintain a psychic barrier defined by the bounds of our physical body, and penetration of the body of any sort, be it oral, anal, or vaginal, violates this barrier.  This is partially what makes consensual penetrative sexual activity so intense, as it represents a certain level of openness and trust in the allowance of the violation of the barrier, and it's partially what makes forcible penetration so shattering for many people, as it's an intense psychological transgression.  However, knife and gunshot wounds also violate this barrier and, while certainly traumatic, they are not as traumatic on the whole as sexual assaults.  This disparity can be explained by the social valuation of such things as female sexual desire and female virginity.  Generally, women are encouraged to be objects of sexual pleasure for men, while simultaneously being told that women who seek out sexual activity, seek pleasure from sexual activity, date casually, have one-night stands, and/or are otherwise sexually assertive are sluts or whores.  Women are encouraged to resist sexual advances while men are encouraged to make them.  As a result, many women have some low to moderate levels of guilt and unease associated with even consensual sexual activity and in particular penetrative forms of sexual activity (as penis-in-vagina sex is coded as the only 'real' sex).  When the sex is forced, the trauma is multiplied due to the cultural coding of sex.

Men tend to experience penetrative sexual assault in much the same way; this has much to do with the violation of the body's psychic barrier and the cultural coding of male anal penetration and its rather specious association with homosexuality (and the cultural coding thereof).  Additionally, the normative male identity is very strongly connected to issues of sexual prowess, and men find the relegation to the (female-coded) role of penetratee to be particularly damaging.  So why isn't testicular violence punished as severely as sexual assault?  The short answer is that the physical acts of violence don't seem to be sexual in nature, strictly speaking (as there are no normative sex acts involving testicular trauma - sorry to all the masochists out there, but you guys who like having your testes stomped are still on the fringe), which means testicular trauma isn't necessarily sexual assault.  But that's a bit flippant.  I think the real reason is that sexual assault laws, as I said above, were designed to combat a specific symptom - sexual violence against women - and sexual violence against men is not viewed as a major (political) issue.  Were we to see as many cases of (unprovoked) testicular assault as there are rapes, the laws might change, but I don't think that's a world anyone wants.  As for the cases you cited, these women are all clearly disturbed, and the sentences are certainly lax - they should (at least) include mandatory psychotherapy for a period of six month, minimum.  But Men's Right Online (and by quoting them, you) seems to be stretching the definition of recent, as the last case is from 2004 - if there were only 4 such cases in the past 5 years, this is not going to be a major issue, social, political or otherwise.  Of course, the reason that these cases are publicised, and not the several rapes that (statistically speaking) occured over the last week in the UK, is precisely because they're extremely uncommon.

The assertion that self-defense classes for girls and young women are making women more violent is interesting, and I'll grant the proposition to an extremely limited degree, but of course women still have a long way to go before they're anywhere near as violent as men, who are raised in a culture that defines male self-expression in terms of aggression and dominance and (I posit that this is a direct cause-effect relationship) commit the overwhelming majority of violent crimes.  I have no desire to see women, generally, become as violent as men, but if we strive for equality without making an effort to address the violent construction of the “man” gender role, then this is exactly what we're asking for.  These self-defense programs are, as with sexual assault laws, only addressing the symptom of violence against women, and will therefore be largely ineffective without addressing the underlying social issues.  Also, if there are self-defense programs in your area that are not emphasising the “defense” and “last resort” aspects of violence, write to the program director or whichever public official has oversight and tell him/her about your concerns.  If they get no feedback from the public, they'll probably assuming everything is fine and carry on as usual.

Re: Sexism is OK...

“i find it surprising that the outcry is about anti-male sexism only”

Re: Sexism is OK...

Hi John,

Welcome to our discussion. Not to worry that your post is in American, as a Canadian, I'm well used to it :)

Very articulate and thoughtful analysis, thank you. Interesting that you point out the anti-female sexism in the basic assumptions. Of course, we are so used to this unquestioning association of women with housework, even in the 21st century.

I think that the reason that we are focussing so much on anti-male sexism in this discussion, though, is because it is something that is not being examined enough. The advert is just a small symptom of a much bigger problem in this regard.  

I can't agree with you that 

 the actual impact on the general view of men is extremely limited, and not particularly damaging or oppressive.


The insidious effect of this kind of “humour” is incalculable.


I was heartened that you said racist humour by people “of colour” (this term always makes me laugh and think of myself as purple with pink stripes :) ) is not a good thing, and that the man is openly mocked… portrayed as an idiot…not a particularly favorable depiction


Of course we can understand all of this, we can rationalise it. But it doesn't mean it's ok.


Sexual assault laws are severely broken everywhere, by virtue of their existence - they're an attempt to treat a symptom without addressing the underlying disease, the symptom being inordinate degrees of sexual violence perpetrated against women by men.



I'm afraid that I am not following your line of thought in this section. Even if sexual violence against men is not as common as against women, surely it's as serious? And testicular assault is surely a form of aggression on the physical centre of a man's sexuality, so while it's not sexual assault in the same way (how could it be?). it is still IMO sexual assault. And very serious, so why it is trivialised and made a target of fun for all ages? That seems to me to be very sick on the part of society.


It may be that women are far from being as violent as men but I for one do not want to see us going down that road in any way shape or form.


What do you think, John?


Nicole

Re: Sexism is OK...

Re: Sexism is OK...

I disagree with you.

Well… I'm Finnish and my English is what it is. At least it can be called English. Impeccable? No.

“though i find it surprising that the outcry is about anti-male sexism only”

Of course you would… Not many dare to cry out only about anti-male sexism. There will always be someone there crying back about how much worse the anti-female sexism is and the rest of the feminism/women's lib propaganda… Most people just give up. It's not that anything is going to change, as the society seems to think violence against men is quite acceptable, even funny, and sexism against men is nothing to worry about.

The outcry is about a very specific limited part of sexism. One doesn't need to try to cover the whole vast abyss called sexism to cry out, don't you agree? One example is enough, and here we have one example. The sexism against men in advertisements and a little in general. Sexism against women is naturally, self-evidently, without anyone questioning it, not ok, while sexism against men seems to be quite ok. Which can be seen from your post too, Johann7.

“the unquestioned association of women with domestic ability and the laugh at the end to be gallingly anti-female, as they reinforce oppressive gender stereotypes”
Women haven't ever been seen as oppressive gender stereotypes, not even when that is exactly how they are portrayed - as in this ad.

Let me explain some things about this ad and the attitudes it conveys:

It is not associating women with household chores. It is based on the idea that women do more than 3/4 of the household chores. Ask anyone, and she/he will tell you this as a fact. Even men think this is the truth. Women do the household chores, not because they are better suited to do it, but because men are lazy bums who invent all these excuses why they won't do it. Someone has to do it. Besides, women ARE better in it. Women are better in everything. Women would be better in mowing the lawn, fixing the sewege and electrical work than men, but shouldn't men be doing SOMETHING and not laying on the couch or playing videogames or golf or what ever they are doing while women take care of everything.

In reality the chores in a normal household are shared 50/50. Most people don't like doing household chores, but there's always some things they rather do than others. For me, going to the grocery store is a biggie, so my husband does that. For him doing the dishes is a biggie, so I do that. My brother does most of the household works, because my SIL has a job where she travels a lot. My SIL's husband does the laundry, because my SIL doesn't do it to his satisfaction. My other BIL makes the food for the whole family, because he thinks my sister can't cook. In our household hubby cooks too 9 times out of 10. In the end everything is balanced.

The idea that a wife is stuck between the pregnancies and the stove might have been true 50 years ago… it hasn't been true for 20 years in the Western culture sphere. Nevertheless, the feminist movement keep claiming so, and the media enhances the feminist lies. People don't even question whether that is the truth or not today. “It's so in every commercial, in every tv show, in every soap opera, in every magazine, and everyone TALKS about it! It must be true!”
It's not.

Do you look at a woman and see a housewife? I don't. Why don't we, if we live in a society where the women's oppression is institutionalised? Are we so different from everyone else in this society, are we an exception? I don't think so… I don't know anyone, NOT ONE PERSON IN MY ENVIRONMENT who thinks that way… not even my 74 years old parents think that way… I am 100% sure that you couldn't scratch up more than a handful people who still think that way of women, unless, of course, you go to fringe movements like ultra conservative political and religious groups. How ever high they scream, they don't form the “society as whole”. Now, you seem to be an intelligent, caring and knowledgeable man… if YOU still believe that the society has put women in the domestic cage… what chances does the society have to understand that oppressing men and misoandrist sexism is not a joke or just an “isolated incident”?

Another thing, a woman shouldn't be treating her husband as her teenaged son. That is what the ad is based on. She MUST ORDER him to clean the oven, she MUST FORCE him to do household chores, she MUST MONITOR him so that he does his work well enough… because that's what men are, babies… “men grow until they are 4, after that only their toys grow”. HE'S AN ADULT, for crying out loud! Treat him like an adult, and perhaps you might get surprised by him responding like an adult!

So the giggle in the end is about how she managed to trick him into doing household chores, by giving him a new TOY :-) Heehee… So stupid the men are. So easily manipulated, such big kids… Suckers!

The ad says loud and clear that the woman is unhappy because she's married to the worthless piece of crap. If she didn't need to mother him and order him about and solve the problems for him and manipulate him, if he wasn't stupid and lazy, she WOULD be happy. It's enhancing the idea of that women are houseslaves… even when she doesn't do the job!!! Aren't we well trained, Johann7? Frankly, what in the ad says that she had done anything? Anything at all? Nothing. We are just so well conditioned, that even when we see a woman and a man in an ad, we AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME things… “this advert is much more degrading with regards to women”. As if!

Is this anti-female sexist? Sure, it is. Just as the patriarchaic ideas are anti-male sexist by nature. Women are not manipulative bitches who see men as children. Nevertheless, not many watching the ad understand that that is the image of women the ad enhances… I'm sure the ADS would have stopped the ad in five seconds if they had realised that…

“The fact that the commercial was given a green light, however, has to do with what the actual impact of sexism is.”
No, it has to do with the MISCONCEPTION that men don't suffer from the consequences of misandry. This ad is not the cause, it's a symptom of the underlying misandry in this society. People think men ARE just big boys, stupid, clumsy, lazy and need to be manipulated, bribed and tricked to do their part of the job. It's shown not only in these ads, but in 90% of media, advertisements, tv-shows, books, magazines, newspapers…

It's not “isolated cases of hatred or oppressive behavior”. It's a sign of the underlying sickness that is damaging the society as we speak. It doesn't matter whether it is a new phenomenon or not, it has to be stopped. It's not more acceptable just “because there isn't a multi-layered centuries-old social system of oppression in place as there is for women”. As Indira Gandhi put it “My theory is that men are no more liberated than women.” Every form of discrimination is two edged sword that damages both sides of the issue. The ideology that puts the woman in  the kitchen, also puts the man at work outside the home. It makes the woman the mistress of the home, the one who makes all the decisions about how the household is run, how the children are raised, and if she chooses to use her dictatorship at home to make the home a pink frilly chintz covered cage where the man MIGHT have a shelf in the garage for his things, it's her privilege and all he can do is to sigh and sit nicely in the chair with his pipe, newspaper, tv and slippers… But woe be unto him if he leaves the chair unless the little mrs has given her permission. Woe be unto him, if he doesn't spank the kids when she tells him to do so, or if he is at home when the matriarchs meet to discuss the breeding programs… Woe be unto him, if he doesn't enforce the little wifey's plans and if he doesn't provide her with enough money to live as she desires.
In Switzerland the women DIDN'T WANT the right to vote. Their men voted as they told them to vote. Now they would need to go and vote for themselves, and their husbands would vote what ever they wanted… one more task to do, a little less power. Not good, said the Swiss women.

It's not just one or two bars of a bird cage. It is a whole cage. Sure, it doesn't look EXACTLY as the cage women are in, and it's not as old, but it's a cage.

It's not acceptable nor excusable to portray men as lazy, stupid and ridiculous. You don't respond to oppression by oppressing back. Feminists and those supporting feminists should know that nothing good comes from inequality and negative stereotypes.

I am sort of glad to see that you don't see the misandrist oppression and the consequences of it… Good for you. But more than that, I'm sad. If you can't see it, you can't change it.

A black comedian shouldn't mock white people for being white. It's racism and should be acknowledged as such, and treated accordingly. I hate discrimination, even when it's “positive”. It doesn't matter that the white people have been discriminating the black people for quite some time, it doesn't matter that the victims of racism usually are non-white people, it doesn't matter that it's intended to be funny and that a lot of people find it funny and laugh. There's enough things to laugh at so that you don't need to start laughing at people who are different from you in some way.

About censorship and freedom of expression… Unfortunately you have the right to say anything, because it is not right to say anything. Some of the things one say do cause more harm than not, and people are so made that they will act upon their thoughts. The Holocaust proved that millions will die in the wild fire that was started with the “simple and harmless” thought of “I don't like Jews…” It would be nice if people believed that hate speech is a spark in dry grass without them needing another Holocaust to prove it. If you abuse your freedom to hurt others, you deserve to loose it.

Don't even start comparing the trauma experienced in rape to the trauma experienced in testicular violence. In that too we are so conditioned that NOTHING compares to rape. When someone drags the rape on the table, everyone else can just give up and go home. Let's not talk about the physiological trauma connected to being kicked on genitals - male as well as female. It's NOTHING COMPARED TO RAPE. Let's not talk about that a person can die of the shock of being kicked in the testicles, it's NOTHING COMPARED TO RAPE. Let's not talk about the attitude of the society that makes it not only acceptable but FUNNY to look at someone being subjected to excruciating pain. It's NOTHING COMPARED TO RAPE!!! Besides, it's quite acceptable, considering that women have been subjected to blah blah blah…

As far as I saw, SillyOldBear didn't say the self-defense classes for girls and young women are making women more violent, he said that self-defense classes taught girls to FIRST take one the “heavy weapons”, damage eyes, ears, genitals, knees, in stead of trying the non-violent ways to defend oneself, that is “yell NO!” and “remove yourself from the situation”. There usually is no reason for anyone to get violent in situations like that.

“…but of course women still have a long way to go before they're anywhere near as violent as men”
Excuse my French but this is total bull! Women are exactly as violent as men, it's just that women are generally lighter and weaker than men and therefore doesn't cause as much damage… The will and effort is there. Make no excuse, just because the results are “missing”. You are indeed excellently conditioned :-)

“These self-defense programs are, as with sexual assault laws, only addressing the symptom of violence against women, and will therefore be largely ineffective without addressing the underlying social issues.”
and also TOTALLY ineffective and IRRELEVANT when addressing violence against men.

You think sexism is ok when it's not a “serious threat to the society”. I think sexism is ok NEVER.

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When humanity looks at ourselves without labels and just as great spirits, we will shed the isms (sexism, racism, etc.) and the persecutions that come with them.

Re: Sexism is OK...

Dov, I really respect that honesty and humility you show in your re-evaluation. Thank you.

Mr, that's right, so many isms that get in the way of being and caring. 

Love,

Nicole

Re: Sexism is OK...

This is a most fascinating thread!  I find myself completely agreeing with the position of the author in each posting.  Most people seem to be taking the same position as Dov, and agreeing that publicly humiliating or degrading men in commercials is wrong.  And I agree with that. 

It seems Johann has taken the position of pointing out the larger societal constructs that have lead to power imbalances and large scale oppression toward women–something that hasn't been seen toward men, since men have (as a general rule) been in the position of power.

I agree with both of these perspectives.  As a white male, I would say that as a young boy, I did not understand why it was always “ok” for white men to be made fun of and never for any other distinct group of people.  And that hurt; it was painful.  As an adult white male, I understand why it is the way it is, and because I understand it, I'm not personally effected by it.  But I do worry about young boys, in the age of innocence, who do not have the capacity to dissociate these statements from being direct statements against them.  And that saddens me.

I think that every human being deserves to be treated with dignity.  Whenever there's an underlying assumption that some “type” of person is inherently of lesser value than other “types” of people, the statement being made is morally wrong.  Though the impact may be of varying degree, depending upon culturally ingrained stereotypes, why not start with genuine respect for every individual before making a statement?  Especially if that statement is intended to be heard/viewed by a large, random selection of other people, in an age-range that you have no control over.  Really, I think seeing every individual as an important, sacred human being with a complex and nuanced array of emotional states is where we should start.

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I think that some people feel a need to bash someone, somehow, for something. So when they are told they should not make fun of women, they automatically think, “Oh, I should make fun of men instead,” rather than take the position that NO ONE should be made fun of.

Or how about those Israel-bashers who make note of every atrocity committed by Israel, but ignore or downplay the murders committed by Palestinians?

Or Americans whose response to 9-11 was “Let's attack and bomb those damned A-RABS!” I even heard that in one case, pork chops were thrown at a Muslim mosque somewhere in America to defile it. Wasn't that terrorism too?

We were taught in kindergarten, “Two wrongs don't make a right.”  Why do we forget that as adults?

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Dale, if the world were about what we learned in kindergarten,
it would look very different!

Peace,

Nicole

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Oh yes! That is lovely! I need some warm cookies and dance :-)

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Hello Matthew,

It's good to have you here in this discussion.

I really like what you have to say, especially your last paragraph. I feel like framing your last sentence and putting it up on my wall so I never forget it.

Hello Ket,

I am always delighted to have you post, especially one of these really terrific, detailed responses.

Let's begin by looking at the housework issue. For example, here it says:

 In 1992, 65.9% of the unpaid housework in Canada was performed by women. This is a pattern which holds true internationally: women do the bulk of the housework, whether they are living in a developing nation or not, in an urban or rural setting, whether or not there are small children in the household, and regardless of social class, education and other socioeconomic factors.


That was 17 years ago. Over time the gap seems to be gradually closing though women may still be doing more housework according to this,
though this claims change is happening slower now andvinterestingly amongst couples living together outside of marriage the men tend to do more housework. 

But then I thought, maybe European men are ahead of North American men in terms of how much time they spend on housework. And lo and behold, Sweden men seem to be the leaders in Europe in this regard
the implication is that they are less involved in the rest of Northern Europe, and much less so in Southern Europe. 

I found this especially interesting in terms of differences between countries:

  Total work time (defined as market labor plus housework) tends to be higher for men than for women in countries with relatively high levels of income, including Japan, the United States and Sweden. In contrast, women have substantially more total work time than men in Russia, Finland and Hungary.•  Swedish men do substantially more housework (24 hours a week) than men in the other countries examined and Japanese men do much less housework (4 hours a week). “Cross-national comparisons of the gender gap in housework hours indicate that Americans are less gender egalitarian than the Swedes but more egalitarian than the Japanese,” says Ono, a sociologist and assistant ISR research scientist.•  Hungarian women do the most housework while Russian women do the least.•  Leisure time is greatest in Japan, Sweden and the United States and lowest in Hungary, for both men and women, with television viewing substantially higher in Japan than elsewhere, especially among women.
Ach, sorry, I got so into looking at this one issue (and I know I have left all kinds of important aspects unexamined) that responding to other parts of your post will have to wait till tomorrow. But please feel free to respond further in the meantime!

Peace,

Nicole

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Re: Sexism is OK...

Dear Dov,

I am so, so sorry that this happened to you. I wish this sort of letter weren't common, that people would understand how difficult it can be to be on the receiving end and show respect and consideration.

Shalom,

Nicole

Re: Sexism is OK...

Thank you Nicole!

Well it gave me an opportunity to bring yet another example of how anti-male sexism works and what it looks like.

Shalom,
Dov

Re: Sexism is OK...

Where are the clear, respectful, loving feminist voices who are just as much against men being victims as they are against women being victims.

My heart is wrenched by 'reverse-sexism' as much as anti-female sexism. My heart wrenches at the insults and injuries men endure just as much as seeing women insulted and injured.

I am a proud feminist but I could equally be called a proud 'masculinist' (?) as I believe you cannot honour and cherish one gender without also being called to honour and respect and cherish the other. I believe many women like me exist but our voices are not heard in all the sexism rhetoric.

It's insanity to expect men to ignore all the harm that women do to men while asking them to protest what women endure. Indeed, most of the harm done to men, it seems, is done by other men and yet we stand by as women and accept that as the norm. It is equally reprehensible for a boy to be sent off to war, or to be expected to sacrifice himself as it is to allow a woman to be beaten or raped.

I desperately hope for a world where we come together as 'humanists' and recognize and honour BOTH genders and free them from the constricting roles that have bound us for millenia but which no longer apply in our modern roles.

With that freedom comes responsibility FOR BOTH GENDERS to nurture and support each other.

With deepest love and respect
FreeGoddess

Re: Sexism is OK...

Wow!  What a beautiful heart you have, FreeGoddess :)  I'm so glad you added your voice to this conversation!  Thank you

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FreeGoddess, thank you so much for joining our discussion and making your voice heard. I could highlight everything you say, so may I just add a hearty, “Hear, hear!” to Matthew's appreciation?

Love,

Nicole

Re: Sexism is OK...

Re: Sexism is OK...

hear, hear! For the Equalists, who don't give a dime for people's gender but recognize an offense as an offense and don't rate it by the victim's gender, color, sexual orientation, ethnicity, religion, etc. etc. :-)

Yes, it is equally reprehensible to a person to be sent off to be killed in a war as it is to allow a person to be beaten or raped :-)

Sexism is sexism, who ever it is who thinks one gender is above the other. :-) Nothing “reverse” in it :-D

Re: Sexism is OK...

Very true, Ket!

Hugs,

Nicole

Re: Sexism is OK...

I think you may be right about the 'men are not supposed to say no to sex' thing. I don't expect it to be like that, but it is definetely something presumed by many people. It is thought that men think about sex every minute, basically, all the time, while women don't. (Now I have heard that whatever research this was based on, was false as well as that women think about sex more often than thought)
I can imagine it can be frustrating or you may feel misunderstood or not appreciated for who you are as an indvidual (in stead seen as a man in general who is supposed to want sex all the time).
I can also imagine you didn't want to receive that e-mail. Gaia isn't the place for women to hook up like that and you would certainly not want to presume any contact with such a woman.
I however do think you are overly sensitive to this. If you feel like you have been groped on the street, you feel nauseous and filled with horror because you received an unwanted email, I think that unhealthy. 'No reproach or anything, but that does surprise me. There is a difference between being annoyed, or sad, or smlt, because of the presumptions about men, and feeling horror and violated.

Re: Sexism is OK...

Mr, this is indeed related to affirmative action, and to human rights - i hope everyone will have a chance to read dov's new thread on the uhrd (sorry for no caps, i am on an unfamiliar laptop and trying to capitalise is making me crazy!)

reneedamstra, that's quite true that these assumptions about men and women are frequently trotted out. as often is the case, there is a good snopes article on that here

But when it comes to deciding someone is overly sensitive, i must disagree.

one of the difficulties with online communication is that deep into a discussion about a topic, the reader of a post can be completely unaware of the experiences and sensibilities of the writer of the post.

Perhaps a good rule of thumb then when observing very strong feelings and reactions around something is to be extra considerate in asking kind questions about what is not understood, and to listen well.

i'm reminding myself of this, as i have been guilty today of rushing in to analyse and “help” rather than listen and provide a safe place.

love,

nicole

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@ Nicole: I do realise my thinking SillyOldBear overly sensitive (great name by the way) is based on a written post on the internet and I shouldn't jump to conclusions. I am neither saying what I said is some sort of truth, it is only an opinion. I simply read that SillyOldBear feels violated, nauseous, filled with horror ánd as if he has been groped over the street. Even if it isn't as bad as he writes, or my perception of nausea may be another than his, I don't think these words leave much room for interpretation.
Oh by the way, I do have to add I assumped grope meant 'dragging' over the street and my dictionary just told me different. Sorry about that.
But even then I think being filled with horror is quite a sensitive reaction to such an email. SillyOldBear isn't groped on the street, he got an email.

Doesn't mean it's a bad thing or whatever. It's only difficult for yourself if you feel like that, especially since we all get bombarded with things we may not want to hear/see, etc. I don't like to receive spam from guys wanting sex neither. I may even feel somewhat insulted, but I am aware this is my response to it, a logical response if I consider my past. I remember it is someone I don't know, that doesn't know me, so it isn't anything personal. But physical responses like nausea and such, and feeling as if other worse things have happened is another spectrum of response, I think.

BTW, SillyOldBear, I am not trying to talk over your head (I write in the third person), don't really know how else to formulate it.

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Thanks for working together on this. I'm sorry, I guess I was not clear enough in what I was trying to explain. Let me have another go.

I am very sensitive to movies. Even a children's movie can leave me awash in tears, if it touches one of my areas of vulnerabilities - some movies can leave me in a state of shock for several days.

Is my sensitivity wrong? You said of Dov's reaction that it “doesn't mean it's a bad thing” (with which I agree, of course) and that it is difficult to feel that way (which it certainly is!).

One thing I know for sure is that many people would react very differently from me.And some movies I'm ok with would leave someone else in intense emotional pain, because their areas of sensitivity are different from mine.

One could argue that the sensitive person is actually the one who is more awake to what is really going on, that many have been desensitised to the effect through years of being overwhelmed with horrors on TV and video, fictional and real.

For sure, though, we are all different, and our feelings are all valid.

Love,

Nicole

Re: Sexism is OK...

Renee,

people suffering from PTSD react “overly sensitive” to things associated to their trauma. They are reacting as they should, even though people without any experience of that specific trauma react differently. I suppose it is common knowledge today that a woman raped by a man feels uncomfortable of the mere presence of a man, even when the man is not the one who raped her. Some adult molested children felt nauseated when they saw the photo of Albert Einstein sticking his tongue out. They couldn't visit the site where the photo was because of the feelings. Should they be mocked, scolded or told to get a grip? Don't you think they try? Don't you think they wish they had never experienced the trauma that changed their reactions to certain things from “normal” to “oversensitive”? Do you think it does anything good for them to hear that they are “overly sensitive” and that “their feelings are not healthy”? Would you tell the same to a female in the same situation?

Mental, emotional, psychological abuse and harassment is just as real as physical, but more devious, because a) it is almost impossible to prove and b) the general public diminishes the impact of it. “Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me”… so bullying at schools is of no concern, because it's just words and words can't harm anyone… as said, the road to holocaust started with “Jews are evil, Jews steal our money, Jews…” Quite a many bullied child kills himself/herself because their wounds are invisible and inconsiderate, insensitive, ignorant people tell them they are overreacting, oversensitive crybabies, that the offense surely wasn't as bad as they feel it was…
Who are you to say what SillyOldBear or anyone else but you feels or should feel?
Of course, it's just your opinion, but sometimes an opinion sounds awfully ignorant, insensitive, inconsiderate and it might be better not to express it…

Of course it is difficult for SillyOldBear to feel that way (and kind of you to try to make it easier for him, but you're really not helping… on the contrary…). I can assure you he would rather choose not to have a strong, negative, physical reaction on “mere words”. As it is, that is the way he feels. It might change if he got some therapy and could talk about it with a professional, but I would also like to point out one thing: quite a many men don't get any help with their PTSD when the trauma is sexual abuse, especially by a woman…

Re: Sexism is OK...

@ Ketutar: I just tried to explain giving an overly sensitive response to something isn't necessarily a wrong thing, neither do I mean to say SillyOldBear should or should not feel this or something else. Everyone is free to feel whatever he or she feels like feeling.

I agree if you have PTSD or you suffered from some trauma, the response of SillyOldBear wouldn't be overly senstitive, but normal, maybe even a 'light' response. I assumed he didn't have had gone through such things when I wrote my response, since most people haven't, and I cannot take into consideration all possible trauma's and disorders one might have with every post I write.
But then, you assume I am telling someone in what way he should or should not feel, while I even wrote that I was giving my opinion, without reproaching anyone.
I am only saying, if you haven't been raped, or had another trauma that could relate to that email, I think a response of being filled with horror, etc. is overly sensitive.
That is all. I never said that was a bad thing, I only said it is difficult for yourself if you have responses like that.
Can one ever mention 'overly sensitive' without people thinking it inconsiderate and insensitive? It seems like no matter how nuanced I am trying to be here, you just see this big negative connotation that I didn't mean in anyway.
If SillyOldBear suffers from PTSD, like you suggest, I agree it is a very normal response.

But how am I supposed to know that? You can't always take into account everything.
 
@ Nicole: As I just wrote to Ketutar, I never said anyones feelings were wrong, that is your reading. You can call it more awake, or overly sensitive, from all the people I've met I don't know anyone who hasn't suffered trauma and would get nauseous from an email like that. Repeat: that doesn't mean anything negative. Giving a different more sensitive response to something isn't necessarily a wrong thing. I am sorry that apparently people read that anyway, even if I already mentioned I didn't mean that.

@SillyOldBear: I can adress most of what I just wrote to you as well.
I don't know if repeating again is very useful.

Re: Sexism is OK...

Hi!

Here's what I'm hearing from your response as well as Ket's and Dov's. Sorry, this will be a long post. Please indulge me.

1)  Giving a sensitive response to something isn't necessarily a wrong thing
2) No one meant to say that anyone should or shouldn't feel something.
3) Everyone is free to feel whatever he or she feels like feeling.
4) if one has PTSD or has suffered from some trauma, the response of SillyOldBear wouldn't be overly senstitive, but normal, maybe even a 'light' response. 
5) It is difficult for the sensitive person to deal with emails such as the one described.
6) It is difficult for forum participants to take into consideration all possible traumas and disorders another might have when writing posts.
7) Calling something 'overly sensitive' may come across as inconsiderate and insensitive (though the intention of the writer was far from that)
8) In a written discussion, sometimes people feel that no matter how nuanced they are trying to be, they are still perceived in a way they don't intend.


I can really relate to all of this.

Since we all now agree that Dov's reaction is perfectly understandable and valid, I'd like to look at points 6 to 8 from a personal perspective. 

I have offended people often because I didn't know where they were coming from. Certain words or phrases or the tone of my writing triggered an intensely negative emotional response. I have been on the other side too, where I have read something and gone into a downward emotional spiral. In neither case has it been an experience I intended to create. 

Sometimes I have felt that no matter what I said subsequent to the initial trigger, we could not arrive at a mutual  understanding of each other. Sometimes, though, when there has been the chance to work it through, I was able not only to understand the other better but to forge or deepen a friendship.

I, too, work hard to nuance my writing. However, as an example, as carefully as I wrote my post to you, it still came across to you that I was assuming that you were saying people's feelings were wrong. I invite you to re-read my post and notice that the only paragraphs where I speak about you are the first and third ones. In the first, I apologise to you for not being clear and propose to try again. In the third, I agree explicitly with you  about what I've summarised above as points 1 and 5.


When all is said and done, sometimes when I've inadvertently caused offense, I realise that all the other person wanted was for me to say I am sorry, that I fully hear how he or she feels and that I will try to do better.

Thanks, everyone, for your patience with the process,

Love,

Nicole

Re: Sexism is OK...

“I assumed he didn't have had gone through such things when I wrote my response, since most people haven't, and I cannot take into consideration all possible trauma's and disorders one might have with every post I write.”

That makes it even worse! So you WERE thinking he is just a touchy whiner when you wrote your first message! You rather think a person is overly sensitive than reacting on PTSD…
(Sure, I am not being very kind about and to you right now, but… you know, Karma, and what goes around comes around and all that…)

I know that people use themselves to measure everyone else and don't take into consideration what possible reasons they might have to react the way they do, to feel the way they do, to act the way they do and to hold the opinions they do. That's human and I do that all the time. But that is an explanation, not an excuse, Renee. Sure, people are people and make mistakes and when they are corrected they will correct themselves and apologize! Really, a simple “I'm sorry, I didn't know. I spoke too hastily and I am sorry for hurting your feelings” would do. So to answer your question “But how am I supposed to know that?” You didn't. NOW you do… Do I hear an apology?

No… what I hear is is that YOU choose to get offended by how we “misunderstand” you… actually, you say yourself that we didn't misunderstand you. You didn't even think he was suffering from PTSD when you wrote your first opinion, you just assumed his reaction was “unhealthy”, “overly sensitive” and “making it difficult for himself”, even though you can fully understand his reaction now that you know he is.

But now you are telling him that getting upset by that another person, who doesn't know him and his story, tells him that he is oversensitive when he shares his negative reaction to unasked and unwanted solicitation of sexual services, is overly sensitive…

So - do you think that telling someone who is suffering from PTSD that he/she is “overly sensitive” is NOT insensitive and inconsiderate? I am not the least sensitive and considerate - more like a bull in a glass shop, but even I think it's insensitive…
Considering that you just did, what do you suggest would be the right way out of the situation? Might it be helped if you apologized to SillyOldBear, like straight ahead, in stead of something to that accord through me and Nicole?

“Can one ever mention 'overly sensitive' without people thinking it inconsiderate and insensitive?”
Probably not. Unless one is speaking of allergies and such. I am HYPERsensitive when it comes to airborne allergenes. That you may discuss as much as you want without anyone thinking it's inconsiderate and insensitive. But considering that most everyone nowadays has some sort of disorder and traumatic experience in their past, avoiding judgemental words like “oversensitive” when speaking of your fellow people might be a good idea…

Being overly sensitive is not wrong… necessarily. Hmm… Do you know the synonymes of oversensitive? I assume you can agree that the step from “overly sensitive” to “oversensitive” isn't unreasonable.
http://thesaurus.reference.com/the?q=oversensitive&search=search

BTW, You are “only” saying “just” your opinion, huh… so you have no responsibility in people getting offended by your opinion on them, their reactions and feelings? They are just being oversensitive if they are stupid enough to actually listen to you, is that what you are trying to say? I'm sorry that I read your opinion which obviously was not meant to be read, and responded to it by sharing my opinion on your opinion, which seems to have been offensive to you… I wonder what skeletons and dogs lie behind this story…

P.S. In a bar one expects things like that. So SillyOldBear would probably not go to a bar… in an internet debate forum, especially spiritually inclined as Gaia is, one does not expect something like that, so he came here and was importuned by this stranger, which was a rather upsetting experience. Nothing “remarkable” in that. Which, BTW, he also explained earlier.

P.P.S Might be that repeating yourself is not very useful, but an apology might be…

Re: Sexism is OK...

Re: Sexism is OK...

Oh, and obviously that mail was wrong, I mentioned in the first post I agreed on that, I said Gaia is no place for mails like that.
And well, like I said, your response isn't 'wrong', it is overly sensitive (in my opinion, again). And overly sensitive is not the same as 'wrong'.
Being saddened and angered is overly sensitive (IMO!!!!!!) because of a strange girl that expresses her opinion she thinks you're sensitive.

I feel misunderstood and saddened because of that, now that may just as well be overly sensitive if I compare myself with the rest of the world. If I look at my past and who I've become, I consider it normal. But compared to the rest of the world, no. Internet is not the best medium to try to be understood.

I by the way do think it's remarkable an email makes you feel like that while a woman in a bar wouldn't, while that is actually more personal, being face to face.

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I'm very sorry you feel misunderstood and saddened. :(

If it's any comfort, it seems to be very normal around here, in fact there was even a pod created for feeling misunderstood 

Sadly though understandably, the creator of the pod is no longer on Gaia.

I hope my other post helps you to know that I very much empathise with all of you,

Peace,

Nicole

Re: Sexism is OK...

You know what, Renee? I have no trouble at all seeing that you might feel misunderstood and saddened, and I am sorry you do, because that is not a nice place to be. I am sorry you have been placed there.

I hope you find a way out.

Shalom,
Dov

Re: Sexism is OK...

I find it interesting that it isn't ordinarily considered sexism or racism for that matter, when the subject is from a group that is either considered in the majority or as being “The Powerful”. Most human societies on this planet or male dominated. males are often considered as having an advantage and therefore become targets over time. In a society where there is a free press, those who are considered oppressed can often mock their oppressors but when those who are considered opressors mock the oppressed they often feel immediate retribution. This discussion is similar to another I posted here recently about affirmative action.  

Re: Sexism is OK...

I find it interesting that it isn't ordinarily considered sexism or racism for that matter, when the subject is from a group that is either considered in the majority or as being “The Powerful”.

Re: Sexism is OK...

Fascinating thread, hope none of you are using a Dell computer. for blatant sexism see this http://boltpeters.com/blog/computers-for-women/

Re: Sexism is OK...

Well… girly-women are people too. “Women's” magazines, talking about “lifestyle”, children, yoga and housekeeping do have their readers. There's a campaign in USA on getting women back to be happy about being at home mom and caring only about the well-being of the household, children and their husbands. I wouldn't mind my laptop being pretty pink or green :-D I know my sister wouldn't say no to a babyblue laptop. In fact, that might encourage her to actually learn to use one. So - Dell isn't actually that far off. The only problem is that they are presenting the matter as if ALL women don't do tech because they are girly-girls.

But, hey, when has sexism ever stopped anyone from using things? People don't stop using cleaning detergents and telephones because the ads present both men and women as some sort of weird stereotypes that has very little to do with the reality and all to do with chauvinist fantasies. All men are stupid and lazy, only interested in beer, sex and fast cars; all women are housy, stupid and diligent, working 18 hours a day, and are only interested in children, clothes (especially shoes) and recipes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1l_R7mE7Zk
This ad is SO WRONG for so many reasons… nevertheless, no-one stops drinking beer for it. Also, most of the people think it's funny. A really good ad, so funny and “SO TRUE”! Uhhuh?
(What about this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7zmzlr-4O8 )

Frankly, I think it's stupid to stop using a Dell if one has been fully satisfied with it previously, because of this kind of stupid thing. Write to them in stead and ask them to change the campaign a little. Tell them that it's sexist and why, and give them suggestions on how to make it better.

Re: Sexism is OK...

Hi Ket, good points and Dell has actually made a number of changes to the campaign already. Still room for improvement but perhaps in time.

Those stereotypes are one of the many reasons I don't watch commercial TV or listen to commercial radio.

By the way, I found a response Benatar wrote to his article - you may have noticed the link I gave was only to the first part of the article because I couldn't find the full text. But if you quickly create an accessmylibrary account, you should be able to read the full text of the original article
as well as the response.


Peace,


Nicole

Re: Sexism is OK...

Mike, I am still in shock - in spite of the assurances that this was not some hoax I had to go looking for the site - and found these helpful lifestyle tips.complete with angry comments.

Wow.

But in an attempt to find similar examples of sexism against men, I ran across a disturbing amount of belittling comments about it. People claiming it doesn't exist, that it couldn't exist or that it isn't important were only some of the comments out there.

David Benatar has written an article called The-second-sexism (discrimination-against men)

The title of the article is from Simone de Beauvoir's famous book The Second Sex:

In societies in which sex discrimination has been recognized to be wrong, the assault on this form of discrimination has targeted those attitudes and practices that (directly) disadvantage women and girls. At the most, there has been only scant attention to those manifestations of sex discrimination of which the primary victims are men and boys. What little recognition there has been of discrimination against males has very rarely resulted in amelioration. For these reasons, we might refer to discrimination against males as the “second sexism,” to adapt Simone de Beauvoir's famous phrase. The second sexism is the neglected sexism, the sexism that is not taken seriously even by most of those who oppose sex discrimination. This is regrettable not only because of its implications for ongoing unfair male disadvantage, but also, as I shall argue later, because discrimination against women cannot fully be addressed without attending to all forms of sexism.

Re: Sexism is OK...

Re: Sexism is OK...

That's very true, Dov. Why wouldn't men find colourful and artistic laptops appealing? Cow-spotted computer would be great - seems that amany others have felt the same way

I did find a cow-spotted mouse :)

Shalom!

Nicole

Re: Sexism is OK...

Thank you, Nicole for providing the link to the full article!

Now I am off to educate myself :D

Hugs,
Dov