How is God Doing?

How is God Doing folks?
Is he still giving out peanut butter sandwiches on a desert?

Re: How is God Doing?

Now, there is an interesting question. :) Did I miss something, were there peanut butter sandwiches being given out and I didn't know?

Actually, I'm grateful. I don't like peanut butter!

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Imagine being on a desert without water, and you are dying of thirst
 and someone gives you a peanut butter sandwich!

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i'll pass. that would be AWFUL!!!!! i guess that he/she/it is still doing that, because there is still negative events in the world, and humans are still killing eachother for fun, raping for fun, abusing for fun..in my opinion, those people who do those things deserve to burn in hell. they can have the peanut butter sandwich. i'll go find the cactus.

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You're right, Zakariyya, that sounds like sheer torture. Is God like that? Because there is so much suffering?

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The point is, as Buddha taught, there is no sky-God like that. There is only the science of the Dharma.   My simple parable about a peanut butter sandwich for a thirsty person indicates this.   The thirst we have is how we feel after our fall. Peanut butter sandwich is religion. What “God” offers to rekindle our spirit after the fall?   People thirst for something to return them to what we were before the fall of man, and God gives us religion [peanut butter sandwich]   In reality RELIGION is only an impulse of humans to return to grace. But it has not worked IMO.

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If religion is the impulse of humans, then it is not God giving it to us. Or am I not following you?

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You don't need any buddhas to know that. Any theist will tell you there are no Gods like that.

Your “simple parable” is a “loaded question” so to speak. You are ASSUMING God gives out peanut butter sandwiches in desert, when in fact She never did. Peanuts and wheat don't grow in deserts.
Another example of this kind of logically fallacious questions is “why does Buddha hate homosexuals?” As I am for equal rights for all people in spite of their sexual orientation among other things, and if Buddhism thinks it's wrong to be homosexual, there's something seriously wrong with Buddhism and it should be avoided for the respect of Human Rights.
Now, I suppose you'd agree that would be drawing wrong kind of conclusions from wrong kind of a question, but I wonder if you can see your “simple parable” as “wrong kind”?

What “fall”? I don't see any fall anywhere. I think we all CHOSE to be born on this beautiful, amazing and blissful planet and I for one am very happy to be here, now… it's almost 11 P.M. and the sky is still quite light even when it's already July… there was just a thunderstorm and I love those. The crops have been watered by Sky God, and next week will be sunny and hot again, so that the blueberries grow plumb and sweet… I am only waiting for God to let the wild mushrooms spring up and I am filled heavy with satisfaction… If all this is due to some “fall of man”, thank God that man fell :-)

So why doesn't it “work” to “return to what we were before”? It's called “growth”. Every living organism grows, evolves, develops, becomes something other than what it was before, and THAT IS A GOOD THING. Who would want to stagnate? What would Siddharta have thought staring at a stagnated puddle?

God didn't create religions, but when you mention religions, remember that Buddhism is one too… All the spiritual life philosophies are “religions”, in one way or another. The second you start talking about “souls” and “returning to grace” and “rekindling of spirits”, you talk about religion.

“What “God” offers to rekindle our spirit after the fall?”
God does.

The world is full of “peanut butter sandwiches in desert” but also of oasis and dates. The number of “good” people around you after you have been raped outnumber the rapist. The vast majority of humankind counts rape as one of the worst things a human can do to each other and are willing to do what ever is in their power to see it doesn't happen again, and they do a lot to help you get over the experience. Total strangers will offer you their sympathy and support if you go to any debate forum and say you have been raped (at least if you are a woman).

Frankly, I am ready to bet anything on that there's more good things in this world than bad things.
Count your blessings…
Count the minutes nothing bad happened in your life.
Count the nights you slept without nightmares and without being awakened by anything horrible.
Count all the beautiful sights you see and compare to all the ugly sights you see.
How many times you have seen people walk hand in hand, hug each other, pat each other on their backs, or just touch each other, shortly but kindly. Holding a hand on a friend's shoulder or back, a short caress on the cheek… and then think how many times you have seen anyone hit each other, slap a kid, kick on someone… I bet people around you touch each other with kindness more often than with anger.
We are so used to the good things we don't even see them anymore. It's the unusual things we notice and remember. It's the day someone went berserk in the school and killed 33 people, not the 364 days when no-one was killed. We remember the lives cut short by violence, but not the lives that weren't cut short. Did you know there's over 30.000 students in Virginia Tech?

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I know for myself that the good, the gifts, far outweigh negatives in my life. Thanks for reminding me of that, Ket. 

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“…there is still negative events in the world, and humans are still killing each other for fun, raping for fun, abusing for fun…”

Exactly… HUMANS are… for fun, love, power and money… and leave the picking up the pieces to God, who does. Over and over again.

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dharma is duty. when you see a peanut butter sandwich you pass it on. dharma is a way of life. religion is framing a way of life; putting duty into context and action. live a life like jesus or buddha or mohammed or moses and you will find god.even thinking about living their life is pretty godly. if god has enough sekel to hand pb sandwiches then the bottled water is on the way. trust the dharma. it will come. i found water in the judean desert.

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This is encouraging, but what do you mean by enough sekel? Not familiar with that word.

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Sekel (shekel) is the basic unit of money in Israel - can be replaced with “dollar”.

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Thanks! Light dawns :)

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Religion is merely humankind's way of trying to understand God.

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I suppose I would ask myself, “Why am I giving myself a peanut butter sandwich in the middle of the desert?” Once I realized why I was giving myself peanut butter sandwiches, I'd be released from my own tunnel vision and be able to see what else there is for me in the desert.

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casspoe, now there is a distinctly different approach than we were taking -

question: is each person in control of everything that happens to him or her? so, always the one who “gives a peanut butter sandwich to oneself”? or are there eventualities beyond your control, my control? if so, in what sense am i doing that to myself? and who is ultimately “to blame”?

i'd be very interested to hear your opinion on this, and the thoughts of others as well.

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I believe the real understanding of what you asked are beyond our current ability to process information. We continually hold ourselves back by trying to grasp something on a more expansive level- a level that does not use emotions and language like we do. Essencially, it is like trying to cram a football stadium into a soup can- we can only get bits and pieces until we are able to expand into something larger than a soup can.

My best interpretation of it right now would be to answer all of your questions with “yes and no”. Yes we ultimately are in control of everything because we ARE everything- we are a piece of that everything. So I am continually giving things to myself and to you because you are me and I am you and WE are everything.

And I will answer “no” in the sense that sometimes the personality that you or I inhabit may not be aware enough to take full control, and so a more expansive part acts as guide. Then we fall into a false “seperation” and things start to become “acts of god” when in reality (the reality that is not what we see with the physical) we are the god.

Here's an example I came up with recently that might offer some insight:
Imagine you are the most simple aspect of life you could possibly be. Let's say you're a single cell. You're only job is to “sit there” (where ever that may be) and stay connected to the other single cells around you. You do not imagine being or doing anything else- you are a cell and your job is to sit there so that's what you do.

Something changes one day. A cell next to you suddenly dissapears and you wonder what happened. You begin to expand your world view. You look around and see that the cells around you go on for miles. “Do we make up something larger than ourselves?” you wonder.

And then it happens- your consciousness expands and you are now a blood vessel- or rather you have the consciousness of a blood vessel at the same time you realize that you are made of thousands of single cells, and you realize that you all need each other in order to exist. Your ability to process complexity has expanded so now you can be the “controller” of the cells that make you up and you can be the blood vessel.

Then you shift again- you expand your consciousness and become a heart. Now you are aware of the single cells that make you up, the blood vessels, the blood that flows through you- you are aware that you are one with all of it. You are able to handle more complexity so you can act as guide to all of your smaller parts while at the same time letting them go about their individual business.

You expand again. Now you're a brain. Look at all the complexity you can handle! You control the heart, the stomach, the limbs, the lungs…Yet sometimes parts of yourself can do jobs without your direction so you let them be. Certain cells are aware enough to control themselves- so you watch over them and help them out whenever they need it. But then there are some areas that cannot handle being in control, so you take more of an active job with them.

You expand once more- now you're consciousness is something that can encompass the whole body. You're a human. You have enough ability to handle the complexity of the spirit, the world, and the body and process it all in an instant. When you start to become more aware, you realize you can control your breathing, numb yourself to pain, move the body where you want, etc. And sometimes when you're not able to be in control of everything, to handle all this wonderful complexity, the brain takes over, or the spirit does.

If you expand once more you could be in the conscious perspective of your higher self. And there's something even more expansive above that higher self- and it keeps expanding to new levels of awareness.

In the forms that we are now, we have the ability to expand and be able to handle more complexities. If you are not able to “take control” then the part of life that encompasses you (your higher self) can offer assistance and get you going on the right path. But once you reach a new level of complexity (also refered as a shift in consciousness), you can be more of an active guide to your life and you will see how you had been the “coach” and the “player” all along. Also, that which is more expansive than you and has a more complex view of life is able to communicate to you easier to help you out.

The more we expand, the more we activate in our bodies and the more complexity we are able to be in control of.

Nothing is beyond your control because on some level, you are controling it- even if the part of you that is controling it is 10 times more expansive than your current view of consciousness. Nothing can ever happen to us that we don't agree with on some level.

The beauty of it is- once you realize and BELIEVE than you ARE in control, the more you will be able to control within your current form and experience of life. Consciousness is never limited by the body.

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ok, i think i am following your reasoning. 

i tend to worry when i read statements like 'nothing can ever happen to us that we don't agree with on some level' because it sounds like people decide to be raped, or drowned in a tsunami, or the like. 

i guess i need to understand better what you mean by 'on some level' - say someone pushes you off a bridge, do you 'agree' with gravity and fall? what else could happen, in your view?

love,

nicole

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You're understanding is in accord with what I was saying- I AM saying that people decide to get murdered, raped, kill others, get thrown off bridges, etc. And I mean that they decide to do these things on a closer level than they think- the higher self, only a “level” or so from us, communicates with the personality and it is a mutual decision. If someone is close to what we term “enlightenment” then he/she would be deciding these things in our reality on a conscious level.

Why do you worry? Why do you feel it makes you uncomfortable to think that “Yes, someone DOES agree to get raped or murdered or hit with a tsunami”?

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it seems to me to be a very problematic approach. but clearly it doesn't to you. here's why: i think it can be easily misunderstood as blaming the person who suffers these events for making it happen. 

how do you look at it?

love,

nicole

Re: How is God Doing?

I suppose someone could use it as an excuse to blame someone for making the events happen. What are they blaming them for? For ruining their own life? Then we get into the issue of letting people live their own lives without judging them.

If someone weighs 400 lbs., do we blame them for making themselves fat? They did play a part in it, so if we wanted we could use that as an excuse to blame them- but that is OUR issue not theirs. Rather than focus on “Oh you did this to yourself”, we find ways to look past that and help. Maybe this person is a friend, so we decide to help them get fit by working out with them. Maybe we encourage the person to go to counseling to find out what underlying emotional issues have caused them to over eat.

So we can live with the knowledge of “nothing happens that we don't choose to happen” by looking past blaming someone and moving on to underlying causes. It involves bringing more compassion into ourselves and expanding our view.

Someone has cancer. Would it matter if they caused it or gave it to themselves? No, because only they know what the reason for it was. Maybe it was something the soul worked out before birth because it wanted the experience of living life to the fullest. Maybe that person has held onto anger their whole lives, which led to them giving themselves cancer, but from their cancer they learned to release the anger- which they couldn't do any other way.

I think our general uneasiness about thinking that we cause everything comes from our black and white view of the world. Why is suffering “bad” if it accomplishes something? In spirit, good and bad do not exist. There is simply “this” and “that”, and the soul will use whatever it needs to use to experience what it wants to experience, even if it is something we consider “bad”.”Suffering” is something we created because we have no other word in our language to express the concept of “something that goes against how we think life should unfold”. The person going through an event is the one that chooses to see the event as suffering or a learning experience.

Lets say I have been numb to the world and struggling with my self identity. I conform myself to what others want me to be and don't speak out because I see myself as weak. Then one night I get raped by two men. I suffer horribly with this for many many months. I attend support groups where I'm encouranged to speak about how I feel. After going through a healing process, I decide I'm not going to be a victim and I start taking self defense classes. I gain confidence and work through the trauma of that event. I even find the strength to organize a group and offer support for other rape victims. One day I realize that from that “horrible” experience I learned to stand on my own and found my own voice. I am stronger. How would I have achieved that level of self-confidence if I had never experienced that event?

I look at all of life as experience, and I try not to let my human concepts distort the beauty of life whether “good” or “bad” things are happening. I no longer see the world as good or bad- simply this and that. And I find compassion for people who believe they are suffering from an event.

I recently read a book with a lot of good insights into “why bad things happen to good people”. It's called Courageous Souls by Robert Schwartz. I recommend it if this is an area you want to look into.

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i agree with you that it is simplistic to divide the world into good and bad people, events, things. i often quote the parable Good or Bad
in that regard. Often as I have looked back in my own life, my ideas on what has been good or bad have altered as time goes by.


However, I don't believe in a totally value-neutral world. I don't think it's ok to rape or abuse other people. I don't think I have so much control over my life that I can cause a cancer in my body at will - for example, some people with determinated smoking for a lifetime never get lung cancer. Others who never smoke do. We don't really fully understand causation in this universe of ours - we see connections that appear real but are not always repeatable, so what is really happening? How can I know for sure?


One of the most important complexities of causation, I think, is the multiplicity of it. There are an unknown number of factors feeding causually into an event - I may see some or even most of them but may miss the most important ones. And they do not all come from within a given individual. So which ones tipped the balance? If the causation from outside, then in what sense did the individual bring the event about?


Love,


nicole

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if a choice is made out of awareness, beneath consciousness, is it really a choice? It seems that would be more like a zipper unzipping, a program running its subroutines… like a car without a driver, the awareness curled nascent in the back seat, vigorously sucking its thumb and deep, deep in the dreaming…

so this “deeper” level of choosing seems adaptive, a mindless adjustment to real and imagined pressures based on pre-conditioned neurological heuristics. So how, and why, would blame even be relevant? It appears that we are each showing up as a rolling cumulative of all that precedes this moment.

Once we become aware of this rather interesting predicament, then we can introduce choice, but still, as nicole states, how can we possibly know all the variables? So even then, our choices are based on not-knowing, and hopefully KNOWING that we don't know. I think that is called “Wisdom.”

And while a rape can force growth, just like a hurricane or tornado or broken bone, it seems a far reach to say that the individual somehow planned it for that reason. That sounds suspciously like Mind wanting to assume more control than it actually has. After all, how much of what we “plan” actually transpires as we imagined it would?

Instead, Life appears to flow into ANY opening, and pound at the sea-wall where it is denied. And we can learn from that, or not. Framing it as a learning experience is more conducive to growth, but simply learning will suffice. Thinking about it is not as necessary as we would like to think! After all, we can smell a rose, feel the prick, see the blood, experience the pain, all without thinking ABOUT it. We don't need to think about that which we know.

Mind warps things dangerously, and believes itself willy-nilly. Life will beg to differ, when reality diverges from the storyline we swallow. Suffering tends to correlate with this divergence, and is a wonderful indicator of a sea-wall that needs deconstructing to allow life to flow.

we must take great care to walk the world, not the map, which is entirely constructed within the dreaming mind. I like to remind myself (tongue-in-cheek AND quite literally!) to “ask the cat,” should i become confused about the difference. Cats don't seem to spend much time evaluating things to be good or bad, or blaming themselves or others for what fate may befall. To the cat, these actions of mind seem utterly irrelevant.

reality is too complex to come under the auspice of mind. We simply can't know the extent of what we don't know. And the unkown is only everywhere outside of the mind.

which is VERY humbling – and what a relief, to not need to predict or control, only to incorporate experience as she arises.

but first, we must wake up to our choice, whether to live in the illusion of control constructed by the mind, or to let go, and allow Life to live through us, free, spontaneous, joyful and wise…

gosh, it's tough being human! Especially when we are blamed for things we could not possibly see coming, just because Mind is so uncomfortable with its own irrelevance and inability to control reality. We are trained like circus ponies by the lash of shame and judgment, which keeps us in a state of constant recoil, lashing out at others or worse, at ourselves, for things like contracting cancer, or for being raped, or cheated on, or losing our jobs.

Hmm, i wonder: do we choose to be judged as well? And do the judges choose to judge?

it seems to me that if people really really knew what they were doing – they wouldn't do it. And as long as they think they know, they will persist…

blessings,

mary ;-)

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mary, thank you, as always you have put into words thoughts and feelings of mine that i couldn't articulate in just that way.

love,

nicole

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yes, nicole - i sense much congruence between us ;-)

your comments are much appreciated, as i am not always sure i do not ramble frightfully!

mary  ;-)

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i often worry about being too brief in my comments 

what a pair we are :)

hugs,

nicole

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“And while a rape can force growth, just like a hurricane or tornado or broken bone, it seems a far reach to say that the individual somehow planned it for that reason.”

An individual, a “personality”, is a piece of the Soul. Could it be possible that it (a bad circumstance like rape) was something the Soul planned before birth? Or something planned during the course of the individuals life, on a higher spiritual level, that the individual agrees to participate in (on a level the individual isn't conscious of)?

“Reality is too complex to come under the auspice of mind. We simply can't know the extent of what we don't know. And the unkown is only everywhere outside of the mind.”

What would happen if we no longer operated from the viewpoint of the mind? What abilities would we have to be more consciously aware of all that we create?

If it seems far-fetched for us to have planned “bad” circumstances for the sake of having experiences, what is the point to life if it is not experiencing?

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I can't make categorical statements about what the soul decides before birth, but I don't perceive reality in the same way as you do. I see a lot of meaning to life without planning circumstances to have experiences. I understand it mainly as learning what love is, what it really is. That's a huge and wonderful challenge regardless of the circumstances.

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“An individual, a “personality”, is a piece of the Soul. Could it be possible that it (a bad circumstance like rape) was something the Soul planned before birth? Or something planned during the course of the individual's life, on a higher spiritual level, that the individual agrees to participate in?”

I don't think so. Now, in my mind the “suffering is a possibility of growth” is a twisted way of thinking, from dark ages. I believe suffering twists the growth. In medieval times people believed suffering makes you better - suffered animals produced better meat. There is a horrifying recipe on how to cook a goose alive, if done “properly”, it could also be eaten alive. It was believed the be the epitome of cuisine, as it was the epitome of suffering. The meat was bound to be delicious because it was eaten fresh from suffering… the idea that we PLAN to be raped, that God DESIGNS a rape into our experience so that we could “grow”, be “better” people, sounds somewhat similar to me.

I have received an “old-fashioned” hortonomy education, in which orchard was to be cut and tamed, all the trees that produce bad fruits were to be cut out or used to mother branches from “good” trees. All the branches that didn't grow as the gardener wanted them, were to either be twisted in correct position or cut off. The fruits were to be chosen and all the excess fruits, all the small fruits, all the sick fruits were to be removed. Trees couldn't grow where they wanted and as they wanted, but to be kept in tidy lines and not allowed to grow higher than comfortable to be picked. Now, the fruits were very nice that way.
But think of a wild apple tree, growing in the forest where the seed happened to land. It grows wild, reaches as high as it pleases, spreads its boughs and provides shelter from sun and rain, provides branches for birds to nest on… Now, remember that not all wild apples taste bad. All the different apple sorts we have today are “accidents”. Here in Sweden we have a cold tolerant peach, that started by someone tossing a peach core into a garden, and the owner of the garden didn't pluck the new plant out of the ground as it was “a weed disturbing the order”. No, she wanted to see what it was, and it grew into a peach tree that gave good peaches, growing wild in Sweden! She was even generous enough to give the peaches and saplings to all her friends, and now they are selling the great-great-great-grandchildren of this wild peach… All because she didn't use the “sensible” traditional gardening ideas.
What would happen with the orchard if the trees could grow where they wanted and as they wanted, if the gardener provided support to branches that weren't growing “right” in stead of sawing them off? Sure, he wouldn't be able to harvest it mechanically, nor get the “best possible” harvest of it. The economical profit wouldn't be too good, would it? Which orchard would you choose?

Now, how could The Soul AGREE to be punished, tortured, bashed, violated, hurt for the sake of “growth”, that could be achieved without harming it? I have never been raped, but I have a lot of compassion to everyone who is raped. I think the world would be a better place if no-one was raped ever anywhere. I think the people would be better people if they haven't gone through all the “bad circumstances” they have. It's easier to smile at everyone if you see the world through “pink glasses”, and it's easier to use the “pink glasses”, if you are “innocent”.
I have a new pain medication that actually works and I have been the happiest, kindest, most generous, friendly, helpful and compassionate person the last weeks. With the pain I was worried all the time, thinking about me, how I could manage to take the buss home if all the seats were taken, throwing evil thoughts at people who were forcing me to be up longer than “necessary” by hurrying in the store and running pass me to get before me on the line, or taking the last free seat…

Just as hatred breeds hatred, war breeds death, anger breeds anger, pain and suffering only breeds more pain and suffering. Why would The Soul choose that or agree to that?

P.S. You might need to read things like this and think how your theory works in that kind of situations. If it doesn't work, it needs to be adjusted.

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That is wonderful news about the new pain medication. What glorious freedom for you. And an excellent example of how pain can distort experience.

That link concerning the genocide is horrific, truly, with very disturbing images and information. Yet sadly only one of many genocides.

In talking this over with a friend, I realised one of the aspects of a view that looks upon suffering as chosen that concerns me - it seems to me that it would feed indifference in the face of real suffering, instead of compassionate action.

What do the rest of you think?

Love,

Nicole










o

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<Edited at post author's request - placed in wrong sequence for the thread/ModDov>

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I am not allowed to eat Peanut Butter, so this thread makes me sad on many levels.  (I hate you all.)

How is God doing?  Depends on how you define God.  The God that grants total forgiveness and awards bliss and joy for all eternity?  Not so good.

The God which is.  Only is, and has not a single characteristic.  The God which is truth, the totality of reality before the label reality comes in?  That God is doing just fine, and as always needs nothing, and give nothing.  That is the God which we is insofar as we is.  That God cares not if we eat peanut butter while dieing of thirst, nor does that God condemn such an action.

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dear travis, yes, of course God who Is Is complete… but does God not care?

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No, Nicole.  God does not care in the sense of someone who condones or condemns our actions.  We are equal with, and co-conspirators with God in this reality.  Our world, as it is, is our co-creation.  We must take part, or not.  Either way, why should God care?  God is all that is.  What's missing or wrong in that?  In this?

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I feel a lot of people are uncomfortable with the concept that “god doesn't care”. I find it uplifting and inspiring. When this concept hit me full force, I felt an incredible freedom- a release because I know no matter what I do, I am still One with all there is.

And I also realized what Unconditional Love meant.

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interesting, so what does unconditional love mean, to you? i have always understood it to be the deepest kind of caring there is, that God has for the whole creation… so, God not caring doesn't make sense to me.

love,

nicole

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Human language cannot express expertly all there is in spirit. Spirit doesn't use language the way we do- but it tries to express to us insights into our existence. It has to use the closest word it can find. And that word never fully conveys the original meaning.

For example: how would you explain to someone who speaks Japanese what our term “What's up” means? You could say “Oh it means, how are you or what's been going on in your life” but that still doesn't fully embody all that “What's up” means to us. So we do the best we can in explaining it even though we know they might never “get it” the same way we “get it”.

So here comes spirit who is trying to convey a message to a human. The spirit is trying to convey a message like “god sees all that you do and knows that you are perfect and can never feel anything for you but happiness and love”. You're having a hard time connecting to what spirit is trying to say to you so finally spirit simply says, “god cares about you”. It's not exactly the meaning spirit was trying to say, but it had to use one of OUR expressions so we could grasp a little bit what it was trying to convey. This can easily get distorted because “care” to us means that someone actively has a desire for you to end up a certain way. “I care whether you die or not.” “I care that you dropped out of school.” etc

I believe all our concepts of spirit are slightly off because how can you translate through human speak that which speaks through light and vibration?

So when I say “god doesn't care”, I mean that god loves us no matter what we do because god doesn't want anything. god loves us and sees us as perfect in all our forms and “bad” actions and crazy relationships with each other. god flows through us, is us, loves the act of creation, but has no expectation as to the outcomes because everything is already perfection to god because god IS everything.

Unconditional love is our closest word to convey what god is, but it's a term we use to make cognitive sense of the world. None of that exists in spirit, god is simply “what is felt”. How do you describe perfectly in words the feeling of something infinite?

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casspoe, yes, in a sense everything is a translation problem. we try to translate thoughts and feelings into words, words into words in another language, life into thought…. it's an endless challenge. but it's worth doing. i now understand much better what you were trying to say.

thank you for taking the time to do that,

love,

nicole

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i meant who cares in the sense of what is happening with us as we think and act and are in the world… who understands all the ramifications of those beings and actions and thoughts on ourselves and others…

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i see through a secular lens,
the all-that-is - indivisible-yet-ceaselessly dividing,
unconditionally flowing into all that can become

and for convenience, i call this “god.”
but i can find no edges between the whole of reality
and me

perhaps, we ARE god's instruments for caring
for making things MATTER
hmmm….
in realizing, are we not in the service of creation?
pressing dream into form…
mini-creators, truly made in “god's” image
not in the flesh, as imagined by so many human children
(chowing down on peanut butter sandwiches)
but in spirit
in this most essential way…

to me, it seems that “god” does not intend religion, it simply happens
it transmits ancient knowings through minds yet cloistered in fear
but fear-dreaming creates horrendous nightmares
and many comedies of errors
which is the divine will, as much as pleasant dreams are divine will
as “god” seems unconditional
and impersonal
in what is “allowed”
– no holds barred!

and it all teaches us precisely what we need to know
if we care to look, to see what is real

so it seems that peanut butter to some is a growth medium
while to others, it is another form of hell
and to others still,
it is basically irrelevant…

it seems a developmental thing
and as a woman, i know
we can't push gestation!
although psychologically we try all the time
pushing and striving for that which unfolds quite naturally
in its own good time

but only perfectly!

people in religion, no matter how fanatic or misguided
are on the path
are developing beings
and as surely supported in their becoming
as any fleck of spirit
as they feel for the drumroll
deep in the heart of their teachings…

it is not for us to diminish, nor judge
nor evaluate what should be
although that is also included in the recipe
of what it is to be human
and we are free to believe what presents itself as believable
and we can call it whatever we please
and cling to our certainties, even as we reject those of others
even unto rape, murder, or holocaust
for driving home our points
which is but idolatry: worship of the facsimile over the real
and elevation of the concept over truth

but that doesn't make it TRUE…

i do not see us as fallen beings
i do sense our insufficient resonance with creation
and our thirst for harmonic coherence
which is denied us, in our own imagination
which works through language to fracture the all-that-is
into apparent distinctions

fun, unless they lead you like Pinocchio
into the factories of the damned
which is what we call “ordinary life”
or “real” life (hehe ;-)

in my imagination, if “god” is “watching”
“he (she or it)” is quite amused at our contortions
like the parents who smile when the fetus
kicks and squirms in the belly
and pulls at the mucous plug
daring creation to play its hand
then bemoaning what we have wrought…

we all belong, here
no matter what the diet
don't you think?

Re: How is God Doing?

oh mary, what a glorious post. 

i believe this may indeed be the case, at least part of it!


perhaps, we ARE god's instruments for caring
for making things MATTER


and this… yes!


in realizing, are we not in the service of creation?
pressing dream into form…
mini-creators, truly made in “god's” image
not in the flesh, as imagined by so many human children
(chowing down on peanut butter sandwiches)
but in spirit
in this most essential way…


i very much think that


in my imagination, if “god” is “watching”
“he (she or it)” is quite amused at our contortions
like the parents who smile when the fetus
kicks and squirms in the belly
and pulls at the mucous plug
daring creation to play its hand
then bemoaning what we have wrought…


a loving delight in us…


finally, a big yes to this:


we all belong, here
no matter what the diet
don't you think?


much love,


nicole

Re: How is God Doing?

and this:

i do not see us as fallen beings
i do sense our insufficient resonance with creation
and our thirst for harmonic coherence
which is denied us, in our own imagination
which works through language to fracture the all-that-is
into apparent distinctions
 
glorious indeed! thanks Mary!

Re: How is God Doing?

thanks for focussing on that, joshua.

as casspoe says, translation problem. trying to understand the difference between what i understand to be true, i.e. that in myself i am just the way i am meant to be, and the tiresome tendencies i have to be selfish, mean, etc etc, there is a cognitive dissonance that i have difficulty resolving without recourse to something like a “fall”.

what is the source of our insufficient resonance with creation, then? and with ourselves?

love,

nicole

Re: How is God Doing?

language seems to be the culprit, as we identify with thoughts and hold them to be more true than what is actually happening. Resonance with creation can only happen when we surrender to reality, rather than try to lord over it with all our silly opinions and objections.

we are already perfect, as is all creation, for how could we show up as anything than what we are already, in each moment arising?

the good news is, that if we don't like how the bread is baked, we are always free to tweak the recipe! That is our birthright as humans, this mysterious ability to shape our own experience. But how likely or effective can we be if we continue to argue with how we are already?

so the conditioning that emerges as personal insufficiencies is recognized to be what it is: not good nor bad, just ineffective. By nature, experience is incorporated into an ideology of self that we call “identity” or “personality.” This is a peripheral framework, as the true self precedes definition. Conditioning carries the force of habit, and if it causes negative feelings or experiences, it likely emanates from an erroneous belief, embedded before it was examined and drawing to itself all subsequent associations. It then behaves like a land-mine, triggered by something in the environment. another thought, a dream…

Unfortunately, it comes clad in a chemical straight-jacket we know as emotion, which in turn shuts down the thinking system and kicks us into automatic, where we do the things we do not want to do in spite of our best intentions. Only when the current cycle dissipates can we then examine what happened, isolate the problem-thought and shift toward a more true represenation of reality. That's what i mean by “tweaking the recipe…”

but even in the midst of all of this, we couldn't be more perfect! AND, i think it is amazing how perfectly the system is set up to teach us exactly and precisely what we need to know…

it couldn't BE more perfect! ;-)

Re: How is God Doing?

That is a very good question Nicole I've always wondered about that. If we are all perfect just the way we are then what is the meaning of perfection when we commit “sins”? Are we still perfect and these laws are man made? Or is it simply perfection in a twisted way?

Re: How is God Doing?

hi naomi, mary,

language is certainly part of it, but i wonder if it is the source or the messenger. we do seem to be unique amongst animals in constantly interpreting and trying to mold reality rather than surrendering to it. and oh the emotions we experience in the process! yes.

so, the good news is we can tweak the recipe. the question is, what is the best way to do that. and we have perhaps more answers to that question than we do people, because our answers keep changing as we grow and learn. 

how to overcome the conditioning? or can we?

love,

nicole

Re: How is God Doing?

actually, language is the device of our destruction. Used by the mind to think with, it is at the root of all distinctions. Without it, we could not identify the problem at all. We would have nothing to behave badly about, no disappointment, no judgment, no shaming, no blaming, no “self-esteem” and no need to defend the sovereignty of some constructed identity.

simplifies the matter!

unfortunately, we must think at times, and use language if we want to communicate. The trick is to never mistake the constructed reality for the one on the outside of our skullbones.

so conditioning is developed by how the mind interprets experience, and develops strategies to deal with those contingencies in the future. Unfortunately, as we develop, trauma-induced misconceptions are most deeply rooted, because the mind's business is survival, which selects for threat.

as language is refined, we become enchanted by the mind's repetitive narrative, ceaselessly interpreting reality to the point where we can no longer distinguish the two. This happens well before adulthood, so much of our misconception about reality and self is hardened into the foundation of our slanted world-view, well before we ever think to question it.

conditioning is basically our habit of thinking and being, although we tend to identify with it as our “self.” So the way out of conditioning is to accept it for what it is, to see that it really is based on the imagination, then map the triggers and change your mind to reflect the reality you actually experience, rather than continue to energize the tangled circuits of faulty beliefs at the root of the mess.

it isn't easy, but it doesn't have to be all that serious. We are dear creatures, much loved and supported in our becoming…

so patience, and willingness to be wrong, to look like an idiot, to be uncertain, to value truth over appearances, to allow the story of self to dissolve, and to love all of life beyond measure…

hmmm – well, yes - that should do it!

most of all, be gentle and laugh a lot ;-)

hugs!

mary ;-)

Re: How is God Doing?

Dear mary, how do you manage to present something so challenging in such a hopeful and upbeat way? That is astonishing to me. I am very grateful for the clarity.

Looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts, and the thoughts of others…

Love

Nicole

Re: How is God Doing?

thanks, Nicole!

;-)

but i don't want to leave the impression that conditioning magically disappears. It just gets less disturbing as we accept our human natures, foibles and all. All we have to do is let go of thinking we know anything, especially who we are supposed to be, or what we need to be happy!

simple, elegant, but a deliciously delicate operation, as we slide from our ego-skins…

Re: How is God Doing?

that rings true, not disappearing  but less disturbing. this is one of the things i enjoy about getting older, letting go bit by bit of worrying about foibles, knowing things and trying to control things i can't. it's a very gradual process :)

Re: How is God Doing?

God is doing fine :-)
She never gave out peanut butter sandwiches on a desert. She gives oasis and dates, and the beauty of deserts and all the different plants and animals in the desert and the pure, healing, hot sand…

Re: How is God Doing?

Beautiful!

Re: How is God Doing?

Ok, what I am about say might be horrifying to some people, and I apologize in before hand. But I also ask you to try to take this as philosophical speculation and debate, not as truths written in stone. If you get offended, horrified, think what I am saying is cruel, insane and immoral, go ahead and say so.

How to fit the thinking in 9 months old babies being raped in Africa…

That a modern Western woman doesn't think she is more worth than being raped and therefore “accepts” that bad things happen to her, “agrees” to it, “invites” it into her life, “asks” to be kicked, that idea can be easier to accept, but what about the baby?

As I said, I cannot accept that The Soul would agree to something it knows is not necessary to achieve the growth, so it cannot be that… but as we are all an interconnected entity, The Soul might agree to allow bad things to happen for the OTHER soul pieces' sake…

A baby dying is not a learning experience for the child, but its parents.
A baby raped might not be a learning experience for the baby but us. Let's say, they raped women 20 years ago, and we didn't care. They raped teenagers 15 years ago, and we didn't care. They raped young girls 10 years ago, and we didn't care. They raped small children 5 years ago, and we didn't care… so now they are raping babies, and finally we react. NOW we are doing something to stop the superstition, to educate people, to help the women and children - and even the men raping these women and children. The AIDS situation in Africa has been horrible for many years but we didn't speak of it much before we found out that some men are raping “virgins” - the younger the better - as cure, and that some of the “virgins” are younger than a year old.

(I didn't know before this that “virgin cure” was still used in Victorian England for Syphilis… if we didn't “know better” 100 years ago, but do now, there's all the possibilities that the South African people know better in not too far future. It's not that they are more stupid than we are, or less ethical, some sort of childlike savages, don't you agree?)
 
So - perhaps The Soul agreed to let “bad things” happen to shake US awake? (Doesn't make the baby any happier… but perhaps it does? Then the fact that her life was destroyed even before it began wasn't just something meaningless… it was a sacrifice. Also, who decides whether her life was destroyed? Of course it is highly unlikely that a raped baby will ever get children or even a sex life, if it survives at all, but there is more values in life than children and sex. Another African raped child grew up to found the Child Girl Network.
http://justice4mothers.wordpress.com/2009/06/05/child-rape-survivor-works-to-save-other-virgin-myth-victims/

Of course, it would be better to put all the children (girls AND boys) into self-defense classes already at the age of 7 and teach them respect, consideration, equality and sensible problem solving in relationships all the years they are at school, and have compulsory therapy once a week, all over the world, but as we aren't there yet, The Soul must find other ways to make things happen…

Also, if you think that there is The Soul, The One of which we all are bits and pieces, that we are all One, then I am responsible of not only what happens to me, but what happens to every other piece of The Soul as well - as they are pieces of me… or we are all pieces of the One, as if we were cells of a human being. We cannot turn our backs on some people who aren't the way we'd like them to be, we cannot wish ill for our copeople, we cannot sigh of relief when someone else gets raped “in stead of me”… the baby in Africa getting raped is MY baby, it's ME.
It's as if the cell was saying: “I'm not cancerous, it's those other cells there in liver”. When the body has cancer, the whole body has it, not just “some cells over there”…

So - by blaming the victim of what ever happens to him or her, I'm blaming me.

About the blaming game… blaming the victim is basically an effort to justify that “bad things” happen. GOOD girls won't get raped, she MUST have been lightly dressed, acting in a way that gave her rapist wrong ideas, she MUST have provoked the rape somehow… but if one thinks she CHOSE to experience rape on some higher spiritual level, she is not being BLAMED for being raped… If you think of rape as just an experience, not a bad experience or shameful experience or an experience that makes you lesser worth or somehow defected… just an experience, as much worth as any other experience… like having a child. If you think about it, many women have very uncomfortable pregnancy and childbirth itself can be extremely painful. It could even kill you. Why would anyone CHOOSE to go through such a painful and uncomfortable experience by free will? Of course, the baby is a reward enough, but even if the child is stillborn or dies within hours of birth, most mothers experience the childbirth as something valuable and good.
When it comes to rape, the worst part of it is not the physical pain or possible STDs or unwanted pregnancy, but what goes on in one's mind… the powerlessness, the shame, being unable to avoid being touched intimately against one's will… the feeling of being dirty so deep it cannot be washed away, feeling of never being quite safe again, feeling of being violated… now, if you remove that, what happens? What if you could look at the rape as just an experience? What would happen if you could see the rape as the fault of your rapist and not as your fault? What if we put the guilt and shame where it belongs, on the offenders, criminals and violators, in stead of victims? What would happen if we stopped seeing people - ourselves included - as damaged or weak or flawed because they are victims?

I was thinking about the 10 years old prostitute in India who was proud of her “popularity”. She didn't see herself as a victim or raped, even though WE do. Why is our understanding of what happens more important than her own?
I was thinking about an old prostitute here in Sweden who got both angry and amused, when someone told her she's an exploited victim of sex industry.
I was thinking about the African woman who got pregnant without being married and was doomed to be stoned, and who fought against the society and won. She KNEW she hadn't done anything to deserve to be stoned to death. She refused to accept the society's judgment on her and be ashamed of loving the man and having sex with him.
I am responsible of how I choose to react, how I choose to judge myself when something “bad” happens, I am responsible of my attitudes and how I choose to interpret what happens. Now, this doesn't remove the responsibility of the perp - she is still fully responsible for her own choices, but I am fully responsible of MY choices. As I was the victim, I am not responsible of being raped - even if I chose before birth to put my in a situation where the rape was highly probable - but I am responsible for how I choose to react on it and what I choose to do about it.

This responsibility covers all and everyone of us. The nine months' baby will grow up and she will have this responsibility and choice. I lived in a dysfunctional family, which, even though very talented and gifted, also had the seed of sabotage in the makeup. Yes, I'm gifted, talented, intelligent and “all that”, and I am so dysfunctional I cannot use that. I have often wished I'd be less talented but able to do something with it, but in the end I'm quite happy I'm the way I am. Dysfunctions can be worked on. I hope I will be able to work it out and do something about my talents. People survive rape and abuse every day and make something bigger out of it. So, perhaps rape and abuse and all the horrible things we survive are not that “bad”. Now, don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying it's ok to rape and abuse your fellow human beings, because it's not, but perhaps we have better chances of surviving and not getting damaged?

Also, everyone has the same responsibility. Now, if one believes this, my abuser chose to have the experience of abuse on his list, from the POV of the abuser. Abusing people leaves marks too. Soldiers pay for the demonizing of the enemy by loosing their humanity, inalienating themselves from the humanity. Some of them are unable to have normal social relations and even normal feelings. Some react on the training by becoming psychopaths. Now, what does that do to your spiritual growth and enlightenment? Why would a soul choose to become an abuser, a rapist, a murderer, a soldier?

Now, I don't believe we choose the experiences in life before we are born. I believe we choose the circumstances in which we are born and probable course of life, as most people in same circumstances will live similar lifes. There's still the vast variety of possibilities due to the fact that we are not living alone, and we all make choices all the time, in the situations. Some people become something totally different than others even though they come from the same circumstances. A mother with tendencies of abuse are not forced to abuse, so choosing such a mother to oneself doesn't make one responsible of one's own abuse in the hands of the mother. She could have chosen not to abuse. She could have chosen to give the child away to another family. She could have chosen to get therapy and learn to deal the abusive tendencies. That she didn't is her responsibility and her fault.

But - I talk too much and I have much to do, so bye bye for now :-)

Re: How is God Doing?

Ket and Dov, as always, much excellent food for thought here. I look forward to hearing more thoughts for you and from others,

Love,

Nicole