Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

An attempt has been made in the image I am providing below but I know you can get better. Get your creative, witty caps on guys!http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/4214933-a-joke-not-gotten-is-a-sad-thing-indeed/image/39157502

Re: Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

Poor Rush! So badly misunderstood by all…

That's a tough assignment. Rush to me is so unique that the only two words I know that sum him up are his first and last name. 

But as you say, we have some creative wits here - what do you think, people?

Two words for Rush… ?

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Hey, where are the creative wits?

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why don't you have a go, get us started, aaia?

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Since you asked Nicole, here are two attempts from me:                   1. Bulbous blowhard                                                            2. welcome contrast
If you might have noticed I've given an example each for people on both sides of the fence - Rush haters as well as Limbaugh fans! I had to do this as I am the person who started this thread and I would like to remain neutral on the topic.
I think now is your turn to get in more responses. Can i expect to have 10 different individuals joining the fun? 

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idiotic fraud

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sadly deluded

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myself backwards

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complex whole…

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very good you two!

tilting madly

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Nice inputs.
Let me divert a bit here and present a video which is political comedian Bill Hicks' description of Rush Limbaugh!! http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/2962040-my-favourite-political-comedians-if-you-are-not-watching-these-videos-you-are-missing-out-on-a-lot-of-fun/video/31329229

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Mindless sheep

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thanks for the video aaia!

tyler, yes :)

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this thread saddens me
this is to find humor in what?
becoming that which we purport to despise?

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It's your choice mary, whether you want to find humour or get serious! Two words can be eminently powerful! Just try!!

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already did, up there somewhere:

whole being

hilarious, eh?

what is all this fun at another's expense?
ridiculing someone for ridiculing us
seems an odd way to prove one's superiority

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Loved Limbaugh's latest comment, “the ego has landed” in relation to America losing out in round #1 on the 2016 Olympics bid! What I call as America's Olympic Fail shown below in the form of a PIC! http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/4293273-rio-de-janeiro-wins-bid-for-2016-summer-olympics/image/39791661

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hi mary, i love the compassion and caring you demonstrate by your distress at this thread. I think it is well worth taking the time together to consider whether this is meanspirited or if it is could be just trying to get another perspective on Rush.

Please feel free to share more of your thoughts here, and I also invite those who have already posted here, and those who havent yet, to share. I hope we can all reach a deeper understanding together,

Much love,

Nicole

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Nicole, thank you ;-)

(the following is simply how i stack my thoughts, not poetry!)

as a child i noticed how the definitive word 
stopped the mind from looking at what was really there
as my groan-ups snickered and scorned and shamed
those that did not meet their standards
people who wore the wrong footgear to the beach
silly stuff
but it got my attention, because i saw what they did not:

whole beings

i saw them everywhere!
they came in all shapes and sizes
all colors and styles
and big and small
human or insect, bird, flower or tree
they all came with mysteries inside them
i could not penetrate

but in our human tribe
i could see so many accused merely (merely!) starving for love
for affection
for approval 
for respect
just to be seen for who they truly were

and it galled me, spurred me
when i saw the injustice that so easily
flicked from all the forked whip-tongues
always followed by the same old winks and smiles
the same old har-har knee-slaps
and nods of agreement

but then, i couldn't help but see
that the need to belong was true of the accusers too
and i was helpless to do anything but try to understand
too look into them deeply…

and i saw that i would have to walk a whole lifetime in their shoes
if i wanted know how they came to be here
and why they do the things they do

in this process
i learned that people are much more responsive to the gentle touch
as inborn in humans, it seems
is this tender desire to connect
and they tend to recoil from threats to their status or beliefs
creating situations which never seemed to end well…

and i also learned to stand up, and walk the gauntlet of disapprovals
and speak my own simple truth
that i could not know, could not penetrate the mystery
of another living soul
and the jeers became (finally!) as water off a duck
as i learned to survive the tribe, so to speak…

so that you could say, i know this one from the inside out
and it has taught me much about the vast limitations of perception
and to be wary of this clever mind of mine
who would forget the mysterious whole of all beings
to uplift the little me of me
into some ridiculous semblance of importance
as a bid for security in the tribe
which, from this view, is the least secure position of all!

and i also understand this makes me a bit of a stick in the mud
i've been told this many times!
when i can't help but reveal my views in mixed company…
but i have this little flashlight that points at what i see
and i'll not be interfering with that in my lifetime
thank you very much!

and, just for some personal context
the feedback that i get from my communities at large
is that they can't seem to stop laughing
when i'm only trying to describe the weather!
or what happened on the way to work that morning…
so i don't think my funnybone is missing ;-)
i have entirely too much fun with my own gaffs and foibles
and don't mind at all providing free entertainment!

 ;-)

so please, forgive my wordiness, on this two-word challenge thread
and thank you, Nicole, for inviting my two-cents
with such a beautiful smile!

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mary, oh my mary. i am so filled with love and gratitude for you. this is far more than i could ask or imagine, such a loving and compassionate perspective.

So, to borrow Anna's phrase, let me correct my earlier words and say simply that Rush Limbaugh is 

another me.

Warm hugs,

Nicole

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gosh! you're so quick!

i just edited… ;-)

yes, he is!

rush is a little boy
whose daddy was too important for him
he only wanted to be seen
by a man who was known for his cruelty
and savvy politics

truly, his history is fraught
and replete with all the signs of inner demons

he is like a baby scorpion, blind-thrashing
deep in his own dreaming

god love him!
for people who are loved
are nicer!

;-)

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yes, let us all love him into better wellness of spirit, dear one…

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Wonderful words & perspective, mary. Rush Limbaugh = Rush Limbaugh. One more human being. And, each one of us is different, unique. Right?

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all in the spirit of the One, aaia ;-)

i see us like flowers: on the outside, each unique and irreplaceable expressions of the Spirit. Which is the same Spirit for everyone, as it presses through form, through our own conditioning.

so we are each the same only different. And if we are subject to the same forces, the same variables of conditioning, we would behave in very similar ways. Until we wake up, that is, and take back the keys from this hallucinatory mind of ours! Which tends to drive the map it creates, while careening off the clifftops, cursing reality for showing up that way… ;-)

it is so much fun, to be human!

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it is indeed fun, mary, especially being in love! LOL!

hugs,

Nicole

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Mary, that's why we're always meeting ourselves:  backwards, forewards, up, down, around, every place we go.  We're meeting loved parts of ourselves and rejected parts of ourselves and dizzy parts of ourselves and joking parts of ourselves and sad parts of ourselves.  Every where we go: nothing can elude the parts of ourselves coming forth to make themselves known.  Love your compassion for all the Yous that are Us.

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love you so much, Kathy!

Hugs,

Nicole

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2 words

1) Listen
2) Rush

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Rush Limbaugh once called Chelsea Clinton the “WHITE HOUSE DOG”, referring of course to her appearance.

I think it is long past time that bullies like Rush stop finding excuses to verbally abuse people like Chelsea Clinton. 

Today, Rush can no longer say she is unattractive, since she has bloomed into a beautiful young woman.

Shame on anyone who participates in that kind of behavior, when she is involved in this solely by virtue of being the daughter of Bill and Hillary Clinton.

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Yes, that kind of behaviour is just as unacceptable as making fun of Rush for the sake of shooting fish in a barrel.

Hugs,

Nicole

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If Women are from Venus and Man are from Mars, Liberals aren't un-American, and conservatives aren't ignorant.

We are in the middle, if not the height of dead-locked debates which so often end with a dismissive ”You just don't get it”, s/he gets it.

POLL WATCH
By a margin of 52% to 27%, Americans say President Obama has better ideas than do Republicans, though most confessed to being confused about what's being proposed.

65% say Republicans were opposed to Obama on the issue for political reasons.
(Source:  The New York Times / CBS News - September 2009)

Many of us, just as more and more Americans, are anxious to see the end of ”attack politics”, and would like to entertain the idea of legitimate difference of opinion, rather than demonizing one another.

And, that on a number of key issues, from healthcare to civil liberties, there's room for FORWARD MOTION.

Instead of ”trust no one”, it is now ”I want to believe.”

And this… just might catch on?

YES WE CAN

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I want to believe! Sounds good to me,

Love,

Nicole

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All the compassion here is beautiful, and i Love my fellow humans just as much as any other spiritually inclined soul… That being said, I also realize that some things must die so that new life can flourish. Perhaps some people have simply become so confused and lost that no amount of blissful Love could ever bring them back and they must Die before they can find true Peace. Rebirth can be an amazingly healing act, and personally I believe that someone such as this needs to look within to change because he has long ago blocked off Love from the universe in which he lives..

Just a thought.

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ahh, the grim reaper approach!

;-)

i don't know how to know if someone is too far gone. Where could we go for proof of that?

i mean, those christians on the crusades thought they had the answers, right? And good ol' boys like Rush, too. He seems pretty darned sure who should live and who should die! So where is the solid ground for leveraging the truth, or the gold standard for deservingness, may i ask?

It makes me a little nervous to believe this twitchy little thing inside my skullbones. Especially in matters of life and death.

good try, though!

;-)

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I would never say die. We may judge someone is “far gone”. I don't believe that is our place, that we could ever know that that is the case.

Love,

Nicole

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Mary, Nicole and others –

I imagine you are familiar with the term 'idiot compassion'. In some situations we have to decide what is the greatest good for the greatest span of sentient beings.

Would you kill a gang of murderous rapists who are on a rampage in the school next door if you could? Or would you let them proceed unimpeded even if you had the chance to stop them with a shotgun blast?

Sometimes we are actually forced to decide within a split-second on who to save and who to eliminate, and not just physically but also psychologically speaking.

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with all due respect Mascha

i suspect there is not one among us who actually can predict what they would do in those circumstances, so i consider this a philosophical device which conveniently forgets that what is produced is simply a fantasy, a rorschach, a projection of the dreaming mind, and has absolutely nothing to do with what may actually happen.  

funny, how deeply penetrating is the mystery….

so the fact is, we will each do what we will do in those circumstances. And that was supposed to prove what? For if some similar situation should arise, where we are forced in a split second to decide, we will act too quickly for thought, and our actions will spring from the foundation of our character and whatever myriad inputs might be at play in that moment.

but it will happen too quickly to control.

i am not qualified to decide what is the greatest good for the greatest span of sentient beings. I'm sorry, but that sounds uncomfortably close to fascism. 

now i know the mind can leap at the prospect of generating a bunch of hypotheticals. And i don't think there is anything wrong with that, but it certainly has no bearing on what is actually happening, and seems an odd sort of entertainment, to vivisect people you do not even know, as if somehow our opinions are important, or even informed enough to bet somebody's life on it.

and if i am not mistaken, isn't this what Rush is doing?

isn't it funny how that happens? How quickly our resistance to something creates us in its likeness?

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Sounds like you took offense, Mary.

What is wrong with pointing to two types of compassion in the context of this thread and contemplating the issue from that angle? 

With the last two sentences of yours,

isn't it funny how that happens? How quickly our resistance to something creates us in its likeness?

I can completely agree.

Peace.

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actually Mascha, i was laughing so hard i could barely type ;-) 

no offense at all!

contemplate away!

perhaps you thought i was offended because offense is what you intended? I had never heard the term “idiot compassion” before. Doesn't sound too kindly intended. So i considered that a possibility. 

But of course i can't know that. And even if i did, i wouldn't take that kind of maneuver too seriously. It would really just beg the question of the character of the person speaking, and that is really none of my business. We are all on this planet doing the best we can, and can't possibly speak from where we aren't, right now in this moment.

Or perhaps you thought i was offended because i offended you? That was more my concern, for i never intend to offend anyone, and often do without meaning to.

this digital divide can be difficult to surmount.

i find i can only take offense if i take myself seriously. And that doesn't happen very often anymore. Thank goodness!

;-)

But i noticed that instead of responding to the issue, you assumed my position for me, and spoke to that as if it were true. Bypassing the original inquiry in defense of your right to respond.

funny! 

i think this is a perfect illustration of exactly what i was pointing to in the first place. That we are all the same, with these funny little minds, assuming everyone else's positions for them, then acting accordingly. And somehow gleaning enough information from out own imaginations to make life and death decisions for other people. Using their lives, of course! As if some claptrap of constructed logic is the magic bullet….

well!

maybe it is!

seems to be working to that effect ;-)

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Dear Mascha, I am always delighted when you join the conversation! and thanks mary, excellent responses.

About this concept of idiot compassion, here is a great article by Pema Chodron: http://www.shambhala.org/teachers/pema/qa5.php

IDIOT COMPASSIONStudent: I'm interested in the idea of idiot compassion that was in Ken McLeod's book [Wake Up To Your Life]”, and wishing compassion for someone who's doing harm to you or that you need to remove yourself from. How do you differentiate the feeling of compassion and the need to remove yourself from a damaging situation?

Pema: Idiot compassion is a great expression, which was actually coined by Trungpa Rinpoche. It refers to something we all do a lot of and call it compassion. In some ways, it's whats called enabling. It's the general tendency to give people what they want because you can't bear to see them suffering. Basically, you're not giving them what they need. You're trying to get away from your feeling of I can't bear to see them suffering. In other words, you're doing it for yourself. You're not really doing it for them. 

When you get clear on this kind of thing, setting good boundaries and so forth, you know that if someone is violent, for instance, and is being violent towards you —to use that as the example— it's not the compassionate thing to keep allowing that to happen, allowing someone to keep being able to feed their violence and their aggression. So of course, they're going to freak out and be extremely upset. And it will be quite difficult for you to go through the process of actually leaving the situation. But that's the compassionate thing to do.

It's the compassionate thing to do for yourself, because you're part of that dynamic, and before you always stayed. So now you're going to do something frightening, groundless, and quite different. But it's the compassionate thing to do for yourself, rather than stay in a demeaning, destructive, abusive relationship.

And it's the most compassionate thing you can do for them too. They will certainly not thank you for it, and they will certainly not be glad. They'll go through a lot. But if there's any chance for them to wake up or start to work on their side of the problem, their abusive behavior or whatever it might be, that's the only chance, is for you to actually draw the line and get out of there.

We all know a lot of stories of people who had to hit that kind of bottom, where the people that they loved stopped giving them the wrong kind of compassion and just walked out. Then sometimes that wakes a person up and they start to do what they need to do.

Photo by Ana Elisa Fuentes.

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thank you Nicole! Quite a relief, to see that it is a term to indicate the pathology of deriving one's own sense of mattering to how dependent we can make another on our ministrations, and not for the advocacy of nonjudgmental-ness and compassion for our fellow souls.

it is very good to make that distinction!

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Nicole, thanks for posting Pema Chodron's explanation of “idiot compassion”. The term is widely used in integral circles and has made its way into mainstream psychology by now.

Mary, this is why I imagined you were also familiar with the term since I had seen your posts on the Robert A. Masters pod where most of the respondents are Ken Wilber aficionados.

In my understanding, 'idiot compassion' encompasses a bit more than Chodron explains in the excerpt above. It also points to a hierarchy of care and protection that forces us to make difficult choices about who gets to live (in both, the psychological sense and the physical realm) just about every single day.

For example, do you let your house be overrun by ants, rodents, vermin because compassion dictates that you must let these creatures live the way they prefer? Some Buddhist monks do exactly that when they refuse to kill the pests and let their temples be taken over by monkeys who shit and piss everywhere.

An old saying summarizes the point I'm making in this thread:
A village cannot reorganize village life to suit the village idiot.

In this case, Rush Limbaugh is the village idiot who needs to forcefully be put in his place along with all the rest of the hate-and-war-mongers who have driven America to the brink of self-destruction and perhaps over the edge already – we'll see…

But given Mary's reactions, maybe I better let Ken Wilber speak for himself ;)

In 'One Taste', Wilber responds to a student's question about compassion with an illuminating view:

STUDENT: I was discussing an integral view with some other students, and they said that because I was making judgments I was showing a real lack of compassion. I didn't think I was.
 

KW: Yes, there is probably more confusion about this issue than any other in spiritual circles. Basically, most of the trouble comes from confusing compassion with idiot compassion, which are the terms Trungpa Rinpoche used for this crucial distinction. We in this country—and especially in new-age circles—have a type of tepid egalitarianism and political correctness that says no view is really any better than another, and therefore all views are to be cherished equally, as a sign of rich diversity. If we don't make any judgments about better or worse, then we are showing real compassion. So we have judgmental versus compassionate, and that is the common understanding.
 

But, you see, that stance is a massive self-contradiction. On the one hand, it says that all views are equally part of a rich diversity, and thus no view is better than another. On the other hand, it strongly claims that this view itself is better than the alternatives. So this “compassion” states that no view is better than another, except its own view, which is superior in a world where nothing is supposed to be superior at all. It is a ranking that denies ranking and a judgment that all judgments are bad. So, although it is often truly well-intentioned, it's nonetheless a type of hypocrisy, because it is strongly doing that which it condemns in everybody else.
 

That hypocrisy has nothing to do with real compassion; in fact, that is idiot compassion. Idiot compassion thinks it is being kind, but it's really being very cruel. If you have an alcoholic friend and you know that one more drink might kill him, and yet he begs you for a drink, does real compassion say that you should give it to him? After all, to be kind you should give him what he wants, right? Who are you to impose your views on him, right? Giving him the drink would therefore show compassion, yes? No. Absolutely not.
 

Real compassion includes wisdom and so it makes judgments of care and concern: it says some things are good, and some things are bad, and I will choose to act only on those things that are informed by wisdom and care. Giving a severe alcoholic a case of whiskey because he wants it and you want to be “kind” is not being kind at all. It is showing idiot compassion, not real compassion.
 

Zen calls this the difference between “grandmother Zen” and “real Zen.” In order to awaken from the dream of samsara, the ego itself must be really kicked around, often severely. Otherwise you will simply continue to play your favorite games. Grandmother Zen doesn't challenge you. In order to be “kind,” grandmother Zen will let you sleep a little late if you want, and stop meditating early if you don't like how it's going, and allow you to wallow in you. But real Zen uses a very big stick, and lots of loud yelling, and there are occasionally broken bones and certainly shattered egos. Real compassion kicks butt and takes names, and it is not pleasant on certain days. If you are not ready for this fire, then find a new-age, sweetness-and-light, soft-speaking, perpetually smiling teacher, and learn to relabel your ego with spiritual-sounding terms. But stay away from those who practice real compassion, because they will fry your ass, my friend. What most people mean by “compassion” is: please be nice to my ego. Well, your ego is your own worst enemy, and anybody being nice to it is not being compassionate to you.
 

Now maybe you and I aren't accomplished masters, and so maybe we don't always know what is real compassion and what is not. But we must start to try to learn to exercise real compassion instead of idiot compassion. We need to learn to make qualitative distinctions. These are hierarchical judgments that involve the ranking of values. If you don't like hierarchy, well, fine, that is your hierarchy: you hierarchically value nonhierarchies more than you value hierarchies. That's fine with me, just be honest enough to correctly label what you are really doing. If you don't like value rankings and want to avoid them, then fine, that is your value ranking—you rank nonranking as better than ranking— and that itself is a ranking, your ranking. At least be honest about this. The fact is, ranking is unavoidable in values, so at least do it consciously, honestly, and above board, and stop this hypocritical stance that you are being “nonjudgmental,” which itself is a colossal judgment.
 

STUDENT: But isn't choiceless awareness without judgments?
 

KW: Choiceless awareness accepts absolutely everything that arises, including both judging and not judging. You see, nonjudgmental is itself a choice between two opposites—judging versus not judging—which is why “nonjudgmental” is not at all the same as choiceless awareness. Choiceless awareness is the absolute mirror that effortlessly reflects whatever arises—it does not try to choose not-judging versus judging.
 

Choiceless awareness really refers to what the Buddhists call absolute bodhichitta, or Emptiness; whereas making judgments is referred to as relative bodhichitta, or compassion. This means real compassion, not idiot compassion, and real compassion uses wisdom to make judgments! So in neither case, absolute or relative, is “nonjudgmental” a wise stance. In the absolute, we rest in Emptiness, which doesn't care if we make judgments or not, since both arise equally in pure Emptiness. In the relative, we make judgments based on wisdom and compassion, and that means judgments based on qualitative distinctions, value rankings, and depth.
 

So when you hear somebody saying they are being “nonranking” and “nonjudgmental,” run! We need to learn to consciously make qualitative distinctions. We need to make judgments, based on degrees of depth. Idiot compassion has nearly destroyed this field, and made genuine spiritual progress difficult indeed.
 

STUDENT: These people jumped all over me for making qualitative judgments, and they were really sanctimonious… .
 

KW: Well, you know, there is a big difference between making qualitative judgments and being obnoxious. So my advice, when you run into this, is to first check your own attitude and check your own motivation. It does no good for us to also get sanctimonious. You know, we have the real compassion and those schmucks have the idiot compassion. We can all get caught in this; I know I do. It's judgment bereft of skillful means, and that's just obnoxious. So watch out for that. But you said you were attacked because you were talking about the importance of a more integral view?
 

STUDENT: Yes.
 

KW: That's a special problem. A good rule of thumb is that people are not going to expand their present views or outlooks by much more than 5% at any given time. So if you are trying to push a very big picture at them, they are probably going to shut down, and maybe get angry, and then start calling you names—you lack compassion, you're arrogant, etc. If you keep pushing, then at that point it really is your problem. Maybe your ego is enjoying shoving this down their throats. I know I've done that on occasion, and it helps nothing. Anyway, if you are really trying to help—real compassion—then don't put more in the spoon than can be swallowed, yes?
 

Also, remember that belief systems are not merely beliefs—they are the home of the ego, the home of the self-contraction. Even a holistic belief, like the web-of-life, always houses the ego, because beliefs are merely mental forms, and if the supramental has not been discovered, then any and all mental constructions house a tenacious ego. When you challenge any belief system, the separate-self experiences that as a death threat and a death seizure, and this will engage all its survival instincts. You are not just discussing the truth or falsity of a theory—you are engaged in a life and death struggle. Whenever we do this, we're dealing with a cornered rat—in others and in ourselves, so watch out.
 

STUDENT: Why is idiot compassion so popular?
 

KW: Oh, because it does not threaten anything. It's rampant in so many spiritual circles because the ego does not fundamentally want to be challenged. It wants grandmother Zen. So the ego will pay big money for a weekend workshop that will “empower” the ego, tell it that it is really God or Goddess, give it a new concept to think about and call “spirit,” plug it into the “web-of-life” and promise ultimate unity from that merely mental idea. In fact, the huge market in spiritual books in this country is basically motivated by one intense drive: the boomers want to be told that their ego is God, their self-contraction is Spirit. The self-contraction is simply relabeled “sacred” and grandmother Zen smiles on all.
 

But I don't think any of those approaches are bad or mean-spirited or anything like that at all. I just think they are a little bit confused. I think that because they don't have a very comprehensive map of the Kosmos, they get a little sidetracked in their noble search. So the hope is that a more integral view will help clear up some of this confusion.
 

STUDENT: Why is an integral view so threatening to so many people?
 

KW: Well, it almost always demands much more than a 5% expansion of beliefs, and few will follow that.
 

STUDENT: I was shocked at the anger that came up at me.
 

KW: Yes, that's unfortunate. I used to think that if you took approach A, approach B, and approach C, and showed how all of them are equally important, they would all be very grateful and thank you profusely. In fact, A and B and C all tend to get very annoyed with you, because you have just demonstrated that their field is not the only important field in existence. As soon as you show that Freud, Piaget, and Buddha are all important for understanding consciousness, Buddhists will say, Why are you trashing Buddhism? As soon as you show that gross-realm nature, subtle-level soul, and transcendental spirit are all important, ecologists will say, Why do you hate nature?
 

Of course, let me add, some people might react negatively to an integral view because it's wrong! I mean, it's possible that those of us who believe in a more integral view might simply be mistaken, and so of course sane and rational people will react negatively to it. So we always have to keep that possibility in mind. It's not automatic that they are threatened because we're right and they're wrong—it could be the other way around.
 
- Ken Wilber, from One Taste.

Re: Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

It's very interesting, this dialogue with Wilber, Mascha. The way I read it, people like Limbaugh are not ready to be dealt with in the way you seem to be looking to do that, so perhaps we are understanding it differently. Also, many of the knee-jerk reactions to Limbaugh and others like him may not be coming from a place of true compassion but ego.

How do you understand the following excerpts?

Well, you know, there is a big difference between making qualitative judgments and being obnoxious. So my advice, when you run into this, is to first check your own attitude and check your own motivation. It does no good for us to also get sanctimonious. You know, we have the real compassion and those schmucks have the idiot compassion. We can all get caught in this; I know I do. It's judgment bereft of skillful means, and that's just obnoxious. So watch out for that…


A good rule of thumb is that people are not going to expand their present views or outlooks by much more than 5% at any given time. So if you are trying to push a very big picture at them, they are probably going to shut down, and maybe get angry, and then start calling you names—you lack compassion, you're arrogant, etc. If you keep pushing, then at that point it really is your problem. Maybe your ego is enjoying shoving this down their throats. I know I've done that on occasion, and it helps nothing. Anyway, if you are really trying to help—real compassion—then don't put more in the spoon than can be swallowed, yes?

Also, remember that belief systems are not merely beliefs—they are the home of the ego, the home of the self-contraction. Even a holistic belief, like the web-of-life, always houses the ego, because beliefs are merely mental forms, and if the supramental has not been discovered, then any and all mental constructions house a tenacious ego. When you challenge any belief system, the separate-self experiences that as a death threat and a death seizure, and this will engage all its survival instincts. You are not just discussing the truth or falsity of a theory—you are engaged in a life and death struggle. Whenever we do this, we're dealing with a cornered rat—in others and in ourselves, so watch out…


Of course, let me add, some people might react negatively to an integral view because it's wrong! I mean, it's possible that those of us who believe in a more integral view might simply be mistaken, and so of course sane and rational people will react negatively to it. So we always have to keep that possibility in mind. It's not automatic that they are threatened because we're right and they're wrong—it could be the other way around.

Much love,

Nicole

Re: Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

Hi Nicole,

you said:  It's very interesting, this dialogue with Wilber, Mascha. The way I read it, people like Limbaugh are not ready to be dealt with in the way you seem to be looking to do that, so perhaps we are understanding it differently.

What Limbaugh is ready for doesn't concern me. It is the rest of the country that needs our active concern and compassion. Propagandists like Rush should have been exposed long ago and removed from a position where their paymaster owns the airwaves in so many markets, there often is nothing else for Americans to listen to with a signal strong enough on their AM stations. Exposure can include vigorous mockery of the tactics these predators use, as well as every other tool in the non-violent arsenal. This is preserving the greatest good for the greatest span by standing up and speaking out. When Jesus whipped those money lenders and chased them out of the temple, I'm sure they weren't ready to deal with his wrath either, nor were the majority of townsfolk recognizing his behavior as an act of true compassion.

Nicole: Also, many of the knee-jerk reactions to Limbaugh and others like him may not be coming from a place of true compassion but ego.

Well, knee-jerk reactions are by definition not coming from true compassion. But who are you to call other people's reactions knee-jerk, eh? See, this is where you and Mary get trapped in a net of contradictions. When you call for everyone to be nonjudgmental, you cannot exclude yourself from the equation and still look reasonable.

Nicole: How do you understand the following excerpts?

Your choice of excerpts is telling. Let me ask you how you understand not only the excerpts you selected but the entire message. Especially these major points:

1) making value judgments is unavoidable.

2) So when you hear somebody saying they are being “nonranking” and “nonjudgmental,” run! We need to learn to consciously make qualitative distinctions. We need to make judgments, based on degrees of depth. Idiot compassion has nearly destroyed this field, and made genuine spiritual progress difficult indeed.

Best wishes,

m

Re: Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

Dear Mascha,

It seems there is much on which we can agree. The country (and the other countries in the world, may I add) need our active concern and compassion. 

I don't like propaganda going forth either. Who is to remove Rush or people like him, though? It is a difficult balance, this freedom of expression that we try to maintain in the so-called free world.

It must be very challenging to have to deal with all of these things. It is one of the many reasons I am grateful not to be an American citizen or even to live there.

Jesus certainly knew how to deal with those money-lenders. I do not feel I am at Jesus' level in terms of a level of societal prophecy and event changer, though I am a power in my own right in the more limited spheres in which I move, and am confident there.

As for my calling people's reactions knee-jerk, I hope that you did not understand me to be referring to yours. I have always found you thoughtful while passionate (and to me, passionate is a good thing!).

I don't see a net of contradictions but allow for the possibility that you see that, and might be seeing truly. 

I think we all make choices about what we find significant. It is unsurprising that you and I may have different ones that leap out for us, as we are very different, but I did ask you the question first :)

Making value judgments is unavoidable - sure, agree totally on that. No problem with it.

When hear someone saying they are being non-judgmental, run? Well, I don't tend to run from everyone who is saying something I believe to be erroneous. I don't find this type of person to be that dangerous or threatening, I remember thinking of myself mistakedly as non-judgmental and so I am sympathetic.

Love,

Nicole

Re: Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

mascha, again you add so much to my words! Where did i say for compassion to preclude right action? Remove him! If that is what you please. But understand all the while, that he is a whole being, caught in his conditioning like everyone else, just trying to work his shit out. So believing his personal dialog and in his significance, and swallowing hook, line and sinker the story his mind so convincingly tells, how this should be this and that, that, and so on and on.

and i am not sure what you were referring to in regards being trapped in a net of contradictions. You have yet to establish any. I could be wrong, but you seem not to distinguish between nonjudgment (or compassion) and paralysis. I simply see no reason whatsoever that, whatever needs to be done, need be done without compassion, respect and regard for the whole being.

after all, what kind of world do you want to birth? with all this asserting of positions? how do we create peace with war? compassion with judgment?

those means seem somewhat contradictory to our ends

But if it involves mockery, then mock away! We are all on our own learning curves. It would be how Life shows up for Rush, if so be it. That is not for me to judge nor determine. 

And perhaps my views expressed above, which you find contradictory, have actually been my pastel equivalent of throwing the moneychangers out of the temple. Look again, Mascha. Try to separate what i am saying from what you are hearing.

i hope that makes sense! And is taken in the spirit intended ;-)

Re: Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

Jesus, you really have shown some nerve here, Mary. Hmmm…. I admire that.

Mary: mascha, again you add so much to my words! Where did i say for compassion to preclude right action?

Where did I say that you said that? You are putting words in my mouth.

See, two can play this game… ad infinitum.
 
This is only the top layer of what I mean by getting caught in a net of contradictions: self-contradictions, performative contradictions.    

Now, I don't have the time to address every distortion of what I've said in your replies, every strawman argument you've put up, or every instance where you beg the question or used a distinctly ridiculing and belittling tone. But I will say that scolding others for being judgmental in the various subtle and more strident ways you have throughout this thread is, in fact, displaying the very judgmental attitude you tell people they mustn't have.

Mary: I could be wrong, but you seem not to distinguish between nonjudgment (or compassion) and paralysis.
……
after all, what kind of world do you want to birth? with all this asserting of positions? how do we create peace with war? compassion with judgment?
……
…That is not for me to judge nor determine. 

So you still seem to equate making no value judgments (which is impossible!) with compassion. At least that is what I gather from the snippets above.

Dragging out the old Wilber again:

“If we don't make any judgments about better or worse, then we {assume we are} showing real compassion. So we have judgmental versus compassionate, and that is the common understanding.

But, you see, that stance is a massive self-contradiction. On the one hand, it says that all views are equally part of a rich diversity, and thus no view is better than another. On the other hand, it strongly claims that this view itself is better than the alternatives. So this “compassion” states that no view is better than another, except its own view, which is superior in a world where nothing is supposed to be superior at all. It is a ranking that denies ranking and a judgment that all judgments are bad. So, although it is often truly well-intentioned, it's nonetheless a type of hypocrisy, because it is strongly doing that which it condemns in everybody else.”

 Mary: Look again, Mascha. Try to separate what i am saying from what you are hearing.

Please demonstrate to me that you are doing this: separating what I'm saying from what you are hearing.

Of course, you can't. You are demanding the impossible from your fellow travelers, and I hope not too many of them will fall for it.

Re: Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

yes mascha, reading back, i can see i mis-spoke terribly, and i am sorry for any confusion this has caused.

what i meant to say was, that you seem not to be distinguishing between judgment and discernment, not judgment and paralysis.

although paralysis, the inability to do what is necessary was implied in your response. That somehow the simple act of clear-seeing the infinite worth of Life somehow precludes action.

i am sorry if this is flustering you. It is not my intent. Communication is sometimes a fruitless endeavor, once the equilibrium is disturbed.

i have no agenda to press here, so i respectfully yield, in this odd game of yours, mascha.

Re: Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

Dear Mascha and mary,

Sorry I have not responded till now. It has been a frantically busy week.

I am also sorry for the miscommunications. I hope, Mascha, that what I said helped clarify things for you. If not, please let me know so that I may be clearer still.

Much love to you both,

Nicole

Re: Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

Hello Nicole.

I wasn't planning to come back to this thread for a number of reasons, some of which I've touched on in the last post above.

Most of what I wanted to convey has been said. Repeating things three or four times in different ways is running the risk of being obnoxiously insistent in a situation where potential insights have already gotten lost in a shuffle of evasion and obfuscation.

Putting it as succinctly as I'm able to on this bright tropical day when the beach calls out with happy noises, I'll offer this hymn to consciously being judgmental.

Whenever someone equates nonjudgment with compassion-love-spirituality, don't buy into it. We cannot possibly be nonjudgmental!  No one should be confused about this. It is not at all desirable to even try to abdicate our ability to judge. Millions of misguided spiritual people tell us we need to switch off those inbuilt bullshit detectors we came equipped with from birth and strive to be judgment-free… like them, ha ha ha! Yeah, right…….

 I say our BS detectors need to be honed, sharpened, explicitly empowered to tell us when to draw the sword to cut the crap and when to keep it sheathed but at the ready on our god-given tool belts. We want to cultivate our discriminating wisdom, which is another term for discernment, which is the same as making value judgments at every turn.

Love is not always comfy. It can be ruthlessly discriminating. I know I have been practicing various forms of idiot compassion - probably more often than the real thing. That is one reason I am interested in exploring this theme.

Off to the sea where distinctions dissolove, (typo, but I'll let it stand :)

m

Re: Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

Thank you Mascha
Yes…  my ”BS detectors needs to be honed, sharpened, explicitly empowered to tell me when to draw the sword to cut the crap and when to keep it sheathed but at the ready on my god-given tool belts.”

Re: Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

Mascha and Lou,

Hooray for BS detectors! I am all for them. 

potential insights have already gotten lost in a shuffle of evasion and obfuscation.


Sorry you have experienced the discussion this way. I have tried my best to listen and respond appropriately to you.


Whenever someone equates nonjudgment with compassion-love-spirituality, don't buy into it. We cannot possibly be nonjudgmental!  


No, we can't. But there is a huge and varied array of possible approach to judging. We can be mean-spirited, hateful and cutting all the time. (Unlike you, dear Mascha.) We can be sickly sweet saccharine and blind ourselves to any possible fault, some kind of modern Candide or Pollyanna. 


Neither extreme interests me in the least. I believe in very clear-sighted discernment (yes, Rush is really off-base in many ways, and have a long look at what those are) without spending a lot of time tearing people down or attacking them. This is my personal belief and approach, to seek change in the world by a positive and realistic attitude.


Love is not always comfy. It can be ruthlessly discriminating. I know I have been practicing various forms of idiot compassion - probably more often than the real thing. That is one reason I am interested in exploring this theme.


I was in a relationship for way too long and also employed that person for much too long. One could call that idiot compassion, I suppose, though I tend to cite other reasons and problems that led me to making those mistakes.


As I put them behind and move forward confidently in a new and very truthful loving relationship and want to develop more professionally, I find myself very interested in exploring with you, should you choose, how we can practically speaking avoid idiot compassion. Or whatever you would find helpful.


Is that not what we are here in Gaia for?


Much love,


Nicole 

Re: Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

 Hello Lou,

I'm so glad you took it personally (big grin)! Saying, my BS detector needs to be honed… and so forth, you demonstrate that the old spiritual adage, “Don't take anything personally”, can only be a half-truth because the opposite is also true. Yes, my BS detector can also use another fine-tuning. It is also not astute enough yet for me to feel complacent and smug about my level of discriminating wisdom.

Also, also… one of my favorite words. Whatever anyone asserts with authoritative certitude in the realm of spiritual truths, I find it is usually not a case of “either this is true, and then the opposite must be false”, but a case of also. I've seen this expressed in the shorthand formula: “not either/or but both/and, maties!”  

Nicole, I'm honored that you would like to explore the subject of compassion versus idiot compassion even further with me. Do you think a new thread is in order since we have hijacked aaia's fun game and hammered it into something somewhat monstrous-looking at this point?

Dear aaia,

I know it's awfully late, but I also want to play according to your original suggestion.

Rush Limbaugh in 2 words: Domestic terrorist.

Re: Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

Good idea, dear Mascha! Would you care to do the honours and begin the new thread, please?

Love,

Nicole

Re: Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

Interesting. You know, I follow some inner guidance that prompts me to do things that don't necessarily make sense to the conscious, rational mind. At times it prompts me to jump right into a fire - or start one as the case may be.

In this instance, the spark to start a new thread in this pod just isn't sparking enough to get my fingers typing away.

We'll see. Maybe some other time, maybe in another venue altogether.

Best wishes to you and everyone here.

Re: Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

Best wishes to you, dear Mascha.

For anyone else who does wish to go deeper together with this vital topic, please go to True Compassion - your invitation to discuss :)


Love,


Nicole

Re: Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

Mascha has asked me to add the link to my blog, which is where the discussion is happening more intensely: 

True Compassion - your invitation to discuss :)

also here is starlight's blog:

Compassion…

Re: Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

Dear aaia,

I know it's awfully late, but I also want to play according to your original suggestion.

Rush Limbaugh in 2 words: Domestic terrorist.

Actually Mascha, the intellectual discussion we've had has been much more productive than what I set out to achieve here. Thanks to you, Lou, Mary, Nicole and the rest!

Hey, I liked your two words for RL. Domestic terrorist, you mean he should be TaliBANned?

Re: Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

Comical conservative.
He is very conservative but he does things with a satirical / comical twist. He used to have a tv show on a local station here and it was funny as hell. That was about 15-20 years ago & I don't know if he is still doing funny stuff but he did.

Re: Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

Thanks, Mr - I would be very interested in your views of the Wilber dialogue,

Love,

Nicole

Re: Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

don't know him!

Re: Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

Don't know Rush? Or Wilber?

Hugs,

Nicole

Re: Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

Needs Hugs!     Kevin

Re: Describe Rush Limbaugh in Two Words...

Love you Kevin! smiling