Gaia: God Pod or Life, the Universe and Everything - The Mystical and Contemplative Path - The ego and the self-reflecting world

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

http://songofstorms.gaia.com — Tue, 09 Dec 2008 00:44:43 GMT

hahaha, what or whom shall I fear? I don't fear 'disharmony,' again, I think it's a bit of a misunderstanding, or a look at the surface of things.

the mind can be changed rather quickly... or maybe it does take years. who am I to say? It is possible, though...

The Loa would say: if you look at it as a linear thing, that's what you'll see. Personally, I don't look at it like that. : )

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

http://mbsu.gaia.com — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:58:30 GMT

This presupposes that thought holds to some direct linear causation. This negates subconscious intentions and unconscious motivations.

That I can simply engage with my mind in order to "focus" on one thought pattern for long durations. I would imagine this requires years of practice, otherwise what you would manifest in consciousness would continue as a chaotic stream. Which is exactly what we experience now. A chaotic stream which we tend to order from the outside-in.

I recognize what you state as the LOA principle of "intention" and that intention is ineffective if not acutely controlled since, you might agree, rarely do we conceptualize in such intense linear fashion.

This is especially true in relation to abstract and concrete. A "tree" is a concrete concept, while "antagonism" is an abstract concept. Holding a tree in consciousness should not cause any degree of disorder or discomfort. However, hold the concept of antagonsim and you may watch it change shape quite easily and often. What then do you 'attract'? Change, easily and often.

LOA demands a linear consistency that negates the ever changing stream of consciousness. I would imagine God consciousness, if we adhere to the concept of perfection as God, creates in such a fashion. But, unless our awakening allows us 'godhood,' we will always have change as the chief mode of consciousness.

feel free to share your love of idea exchange

Funny you should feel the need to provide such an invitation, since I always do feel such freedom. However, I would suggest not fearing disharmony or conflict, since they too, are parts of the whole. Allow it all to enter the mix.

mikeS

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

http://songofstorms.gaia.com — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:20:13 GMT

Focus:

Any thought we think, the moment we are thinking it, fills our brains.

If I am thinking of a tree, I am also NOT thinking of all that is NOT a tree.

While I believe in the inherant oneness of all things, I also believe that thoughts focus our consciousness in on one thing in a way that suggests and inherantly holds duality: THIS is a tree: a river is not a tree. Or in this case, "A person was being antagonistic: that person was not being fair and friendly."

If we focus on a tree, our next thoughts and actions will be in relation to the tree until we start focusing on something else.

If we focus on antagonism, our thoughts and feelings will be in relation to antagonism... and usually the only end to antagonism is when people decide to focus on peace and the things we have in common.

This is the nuts and bolts of the LOA, really. : ) Choice, choice choice...

I think one thing we could all have in common is the pure love of exchanging ideas. If we exchange ideas from a focus on the joy of it rather than a focus on being right or being antagonized, beautiful things happen for everyone.

disharmony is like the surface of a great lake. when you look from the surface at the wind-swept lake, you may see disharmony, but from the bottom of the lake looking up to the surface, you see a system: the water interacts with the air, the air interacts with the water, and blows because of other waters... all in harmony, all part of the great song... perspective is everything.

feel free to share your love of idea exchange :-D

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

http://opening.gaia.com — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 22:37:45 GMT

If the comment regarding the niceness of one named Mike, I didn't say he wasn't a nice guy. I said someone was egging me on based on the content of the posts this person contributed. It appeared, at least to me, and keep in mind I thought it was funny in a way, that the poster was involving in word games or intellectual game playing, was not sincere.

I didn't say it was Mike. I don't know a Mike. I certainly would not base an opinion on someone based on interaction on a website. Now, as far as the person playing around to egg me on, I dissolved that person in an experiment to see if it worked. But, as the person has been dissolved, I can't remember or locate that person's identity within my inner database. This could be your Mike. It could be someone else. It could be that this person, the one egging me on, does not realize that they were coming across, or may come across, as just playing games or some type of intellectual one up man-ship. It all depends on the workings of that person's mind, and the intent involved. This person may actually believe what they posted. I have a hard time believing that they possibly could given the content of the posts and, I am sure, that that person has at least stubbed their toe once in their lifetime and so the reality of their physical being and that they can't remove it or control everything that happens within that reality, would have made this obvious to that person. But, as I have managed to successfully dissolve this person from my reality, it is not possible for me to know.

It took around 18 hours for the "dissolvement" to take place. I have memories of what lead to the "dissolvement," as my reasons for doing so remain with me. However, the object of the "dissolvement" is gone--dissolved. So, I cannot even let this person know the success of the experiment. I guess it could be thought of as selective amnesia, just in case the "dissolvement" did not eradicate this person's personage from its material form, and that person's personage is actually lurking somewhere, maybe even here. It could be that the reality of the person has only left my awareness.

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

http://mbsu.gaia.com — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 22:17:14 GMT

Alan,

Mike's a nice guy.

Ha! Actually I don't have any problems with him. He tends to offer suggestions and ideas for consideration that often frustrates others, but I'm okay with him and I sense he doesn't pay much heed to the complaints.
He does exhibit a intense drive to question everything and accept nothing, that makes him a royal pain in the ass, but he seems to be OK with that, too. LOL!

Why focus on conflict? Disharmony?

Interesting question. What do you mean by "focus"?

I suppose that would be the operative concept we would need to agree on. If you define "focus" as some intense concentration to the dismissal of all else, then yes, I would agree, why focus on conflict and disharmony.

However, if "why focus on conflict" means simply to ignore it is a part of the whole, then I would disagree. Actually, I have little difficulty with disharmony nor do I ignore it exists

I do not deny the 'facticity' of suffering or "disharmony" and to do so would be, in my opinion, rather disingenuos and inauthentic. This is the problem I experience with most religious ideologies and esoteric spiritual paths. The disingenuous denial of suffering. The denial of disharmony through platitudes and new age slogans can be quite nauseous. All sweetness and light tends to become rather burdensome, don't you think?

Peace Angel,
mikeS

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

http://songofstorms.gaia.com — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:41:36 GMT

The universe is a neverending symphony. Listen! Do you hear it?

Utter and beautiful harmony is what we live in. LIke potato cubes live in clam chowder, we live in a harmony of light.

And yet we can put attention on things, and in putting attention on things, they become central to our experience of the moment.

Mike's a nice guy. Why focus on conflict? Disharmony?

Listen to the music...

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

http://opening.gaia.com — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 15:16:42 GMT

I think where I went with the previous post was because it appeared to me that one of the other writers was just egging me on. Yes, there are laws of attraction, but it does not end there. A force greater than you can, and may, throw something at you that you did not seek to attract. Of course, one can say, ah, but you must have wanted that or else it would not have been your's. It is all good as it is all as it should be. Well, yeah, but, no one is going to seek to attract the death of a child, a fire that destroys lives and property, etc. Like I said before, at some point, you have to take all of this out of your mind and put it out into the realities of the physical world. Oh, yeah, I forgot, we create those realities. There, we get back to the dang on bus that you don't see coming at you. Oh, then someone may say, but the situation with the bus was created by the individual. Okay, so the individual decided to get smooshed and leave a family here without a mother or a father, a source of income, etc. Is that what was chosen when choosing the best? Was it really choosen by that individual?

Some are seeking to be in complete control of their existence, or it appears as if they are. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't, just be prepared for the unexpected, that which was not expected with your physical senses or mind. As when these things happen, and they will, your whole line of thought, system of belief, will be thrown off and what will you be left with? With the same thing you always had but did not give recognition to. Man has always sought to be God. Whatever you may define God as. This is apparent when reading the Bible. It is in man's nature to seek to be greater than all that is around him. Yet, if a comet slams into the Earth and destroys all physcial existence, is that because mankind as a whole brought this into happening? Or, was it the laws of gravity, inertia, just what happens from time to time in our universe?

There is an order to things. The details of which no man can tell you, nor direct, or control. If you miss the fact that you are of something bigger than you, if you deny that it is there, how can you become aware of it, when your mind has blocked off, sealed it from your senses, physical and otherwise? It comes knocking and you don't open the door? It pulls at you and you refuse to acknowledge it. So, you get hit by the bus and don't get smooshed and while you are in a coma, and cannot resist, it says, "look bud at all you are missing". You wake up with a memory that is not quite a memory, but a new sense of things. Is it really that necessary to spell it all out, to prove it? Would it change a thing in the reality that you have accepted? I am not the only one that is accepting things in my reality. Those that want to believe they create all have accepted something into their realities as well. This discussion could go on and on and on.

I believe in science. I believe in buses, and hurricanes, and fires, and heart attacks, and my ability to step out of the way, follow that "voice" to safety, heal my heart with my awareness of God and His ability to give me a new left ventrical when I needed one. But, I know I cannot dissolve a bus or myself or any of the things that will cause me to suffer, or, believe that I created them because I lacked an ability or a strong enough, positive enough, mind to prevent them from happening in the first place. There are flu bugs that will attack your muscles, cancers, people that are evil and will kill you, I cannot make them go away with my mind. I can seek God's guidance and help to make it beyond all of these things. I can call on angels to protect me, and if it is the best thing for me, they will. Okay, so, because I don't allow myself to believe it, then I limit myself. Once again, stay out of the middle of the street because you cannot move that bus or dissolve it with your mind. What is is.

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

http://songofstorms.gaia.com — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 04:56:21 GMT

Arpita, thank you for your lovely words. I think they were timely and very nice, very reconciling as well!

I have no desire to kindle any fires, but for my part, I never read a single line about a 'new religion that negates god,' nor did I copy or paste such a line. Interpretation counts for a lot...the world we believe in is the world we see. Perhaps because I believe it's a more a complicated matter, into that paragraph I read colors and nuances that made the statement more about the human relationship to the divine than about the existence, nonexistence, or negation of the divine.

But it's established, when it comes down to it, in this thread we all agree, so there's no need to rewalk that little trail... : )

I also refused to ignore science in my quest for understanding, and also found that the evidence of mystery was all over science like a bad rash... and to a degree, when it comes down to the chances of a universe randomly occurring at like a trillion to one or something, well... you begin to wonder why scientists are avoiding occam's razor on the biggest matter of all: fundamental existance.

Why are scientists avoiding occam's razor? The ego and the self-reflecting world. the world you believe in is the world you see.

can I make an impish little suggestion here? If in this thread you've found yourself disagreeing with others, try and exersize: reread everything you disagree with, but before you do, tell yourself that everything you'll read is exactly and absolutely true and right.

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

http://opening.gaia.com — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 03:37:19 GMT

Arpita,

I think we see it essentially the same way. Christianity is my point of reference, rather, Christ's life, not necessarily what folks may regard as Christianity. I just believe in the mystery as a force, an intelligence that is poured in part into us, like points of light streaming down from the heavens, and in great measure into Christ and he remembered. Whereas, most of us do not. Have you read any of the Gnostic gospels? There is a great book that I am reading now by Gail Swanson called "The Heart of Love." I was drawn to it because the way the book came to the author was similiar to an experience I had. It is like a mystery and pieces to it will be given to those that seek an answer. If you feel stirred to find more, you will find more because that stirring comes from within you and your tie to the divine force of your origin.

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 03:14:00 GMT

The bottom line is it doesn't matter!!!

I experienced such a relief when I realised I didn't have to save the world, because the world didn't need saving.

I pursue the path of the mystics because I enjoy it and I want to know.

It is salvation to me now, instant by instant, but it has nothing to do with Dante's inferno, or whatever it is that people fear in the next life.

I'm experiencing a full life now.

in love and peace

an eccentric Aussie

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

http://christine-arpita.gaia.com — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 03:02:53 GMT

my mother was a doctor ... and to this day (she is 90 years old) she prefers to be referred to as Dr. Murphy. Her professional title is her salvation ... she sees no need for any other kind of saving, settled and comfortable in her view of things.

But I cannot say her view is wrong and mine is right...

She may be a great bodhisattva for all i know...

i do, in fact, look at her life and marvel at it.

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 02:48:20 GMT

Was your mother a Doctor or a midwife, Christine?

My cousin spoke from the point of view of the miraculous development of the feotus, over the 40 weeks.

I don't mention this as a point of argument but I know a lot of nurses and doctors that are confirmed athiests. I expect it depends on how much you are prepared to yield to the possibility that what you were taught may be wrong.

Everyone has to work out their own salvation anyway.

In peace and love

an eccentric Aussie

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

http://christine-arpita.gaia.com — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 02:36:51 GMT

hi Andrew
yes - sometimes it is like that...
my mother, on the other hand, practiced medicine for fifty years... and delivered over a 1000 babies.... and to this day, she is firm in her atheist perspective.
again.... fascinating... (to me anyway)

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Mon, 08 Dec 2008 02:18:30 GMT

Hi Christine,

I have a cousin who has been an Obstetrician and Gynecologist for over 20 years and who, prior to entering into his specialty, was an atheist.

Over a period of time and through the miracle of new life (his words) which he sees almost daily, he realised he could not reconcile the idea of evolution and an accidental universe.

He said his 'scientific' mind could not accept that human developement could just 'happen' as a sequence of coincidences to form 'life.'

The longer he practices medicine the more convinced he becomes.

- an eccentric Aussie

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

http://christine-arpita.gaia.com — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 01:51:53 GMT

hmm.

there is an aspect to this discussion - that just cannot be nailed down into any sort of intellectual/ dogmatic system... (Christian can be dogmatic - and then so can Nihilism)...
From my little view of things - it seems that this world can only be experienced uniquely ...

for example - my personal experience...
brought up (indoctrinated) as atheist... It became extremely clear to me in while finishing a Biology BSc. program that there was some "force", some enormous "intelligence" that brought the natural world (and cosmos etc) into existance.... Interesting - that this dawned on me during a fourth year course - the Dean of Science was teaching a class on Evolution... pompously poopooing and dismissing any idea of a "higher Being"... and resolutely believing to his own intellectual core the TRUTH of Evolution... When I heard him speak - literally - a change in view "dawned" in me... Like someone had opened the shutters and let the light in - I didn't get any answers - but what happened was, an opening to "Mystery"....
Obviously - a personal experience that would not make any sense at all to another person ... especially someone intent on a "scientific view"...

Three decades later, I cannot cloak this "Mystery" in any other mental framework... although sometimes the Buddhist way of describing comes close... then again sometimes the Sufi-Islamic sense of "submission to God" comes close... that the self-identity submits to the Mystery...

An idea of purpose is for that little self-identity... but we have that self identity - till the day we physically die at least... then many believe, one way or another the strands of seperate self continues, propelling us into Heavens, Hells, another turn on the wheel of embodied existance...
I cannot say myself... because I don't know... I don't remember - that's for sure... I can say what my various teachers have said - but shit - I don't know...

I can say though that it is this "Mystery" that propels this little identity-self I have ... and in a sense - defines my self's purpose... which is my name - arpita - which is Sanskrit for "surrender to God"...

but that is my unique perspective... no one elses... not quite the same as Mike S and not quite the same as Opening...

I find it all quite fascinating!

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

http://cloudhidden.gaia.com — Mon, 08 Dec 2008 01:23:55 GMT

It seems this discussion is starting to generate more heat than light. Seeing things from another's perspective is an important pre-requisite to understanding what they are saying. The only thing I have to add at this point is that one should be careful not to make assumptions about another's experience of God or "reality".

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

http://opening.gaia.com — Sun, 07 Dec 2008 22:42:49 GMT

By saying "chances" that God did not create me or you, you have left open the possibility that He did. There is no self drama going on here. Once again, you aren't making sense. I don't keep talking about suffering. You keep talking about my talking about suffering. It has gotten to the point that this whole line of discussion is you trying to out think me because you stopped making sense a long time ago. You have determined that I, even though in your mind I am only part of your imagination, have some ranking in your system of thought, that you are going to keep coming back to this and tell me what I am saying even though you aren't doing that at all. You are trying to fit what I have said into some example which proves this concept of non-being of your's.

Peace brother and watch out for that bus!

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

http://mbsu.gaia.com — Sun, 07 Dec 2008 22:33:52 GMT

Chances are, God did not create a "me" or a 'you' or an 'I.'

Being is unconcerned with categories or perspectives, but 'we' are very concerned with establishing perspectives which might be why we seem to negate Being by existing as an 'I.'

Your Being is not a burden to you or God. However, most likely your existence is frequently burdensome to you, with all that suffering and all. However, if God created only Being through Being, most likely your existence is not even known to God.

I tend to doubt God has anything to do with all this 'self' drama.

But, hey, we're just talking here....

Peace Angel,
mikeS

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

http://opening.gaia.com — Sun, 07 Dec 2008 22:03:27 GMT

Okay, so I guess I am just imagining you as well and I can choose to negate you by determining that you don't exist?

The Bible was made into religion, used by religions. God had not a thing to do with this, He was just talking to people.  That those people chose to turn it into religion was on them. They were only defining their view of reality when they did that. Were they right or wrong, did they clearly hear everything He said or get the intent of the message right? I don't know. It doesn't matter, at least not to me. Has it been used to create suffering, yep, it has.

I never said to accept the text as the word. You are again reading a traditional Christian viewpoint into what I have said. The Bible does provide useful examples to life. It does contain words that reflect great wisdom. I never said it is that the words it contains provide me with complete instruction in how I live my life.  I never said anything "caused" harm to people. I believe I said that telling folks that it all begins and ends in what they choose to accept into their own minds can cause them harm . It also, now that I think about it, could be the beginnings of some really costly lawsuits.

I did not seek to find some divine purpose or entity in my life, the tangible reality of the divine was asserted upon me. I was minding my own business actually without giving any thought to it whatsoever. It isn't so much that I need God to find a purpose. As I and God are one, then we are the same. However, I alone, am not God. It is a really big and difficult concept to grasp. The purpose is there, it isn't something I seek so much as become aware of,.   I remember.

Essentially, you can dissolve the bus, but you would have to dissolve the 'self' as well, since all objects of consciousness support your idea of a separate 'self.' God doesn't need your 'self' therefore nor do you. The 'self' requires purpose and without it you are free of that burden.

No you can't "dissolve the bus". So, there is no need to "dissolve" myself, even if I could other than taking something that would aid me in doing so. I am a creation of His love, an unique expression of His creation of Himself. He doesn't need me, but He created me anyway. I don't see submission to God or His will or recognition of His Being and my being as a burden. I see it as an extension of love. Once again, if you have not experienced it, you wont understand. Just stay out of the way of buses okay? That's all I'm saying.

Also, I never even heard of defining the nature of duality as being something related to separation from God or seeking to submit to God, or anything like that before. So, it sure is not what I am talking about.   Duality is an altogether different discussion.

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

http://mbsu.gaia.com — Sun, 07 Dec 2008 21:34:43 GMT

Most likely God gave you Being and all else you conjured up to separate into a world of your imagination, bus included.
In fact, this was done to negate God and assert 'self' as God. No wonder we conduct our lives as if we knew what we were doing, as if we knew there was some divine purpose.

True, God doesn't need religion but those who live through scriptural myth assert a religious need. Make no mistake, the bible IS religion and is relied on to define the way. Unfortunately, history tends to demonstrate that this way is the origin of suffering rather than the way out. Accept the text as the word and the word incarcerates you in the concepts that you will suffer through and, to use your words, "This has caused great harm to people."

Essentially, you can dissolve the bus, but you would have to dissolve the 'self' as well, since all objects of consciousness support your idea of a separate 'self.' God doesn't need your 'self' therefore nor do you. The 'self' requires purpose and without it you are free of that burden.

Hallelujah!

Peace Angels,

mikeS