Gaia: God Pod or Life, the Universe and Everything - Radical acts of compassion - Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

http://singerseeker.gaia.com — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 16:06:32 GMT

Thanks, Marm and Ua,

Love,

Nicole

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

http://benjamindavidsteele.gaia.com — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:30:15 GMT

In case anyone is interested, OM and I have been having a discussion about violence in the media in the Film Pod. Its in a thread about the movie Slumdog Millionaire.

http://pods.gaia.com/zfilms/discussions/view/361481#361481

Re: mindell

http://benjamindavidsteele.gaia.com — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 07:47:42 GMT

Thanks for the links. I always like links. I usually offer them myself, but I didn't know if anyone was interested in pursuing that line of thought.

Mindell has some interesting views about conflict resolution. He deserves a whole thread to himself, but it does bring an interesting perspective to this discussion.

Marmalade

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Mon, 12 Jan 2009 02:22:39 GMT

Mike this is a conversation that isn't going to achieve a positive result.

I know your desire is the same as mine... a world that our children can enjoy freedom from the constraints of hatred, bitterness and war.

Your approach and mine are different.

I respect your opinion and I believe at the grassroots level we are entirely in agreement.

May I suggest we agree to disagree, as friends and brothers.

One thing is for sure, nothing that has been tried yet has worked to bring about an end to the Middle East conflict.

Forgiveness on both sides will be a necessary ingredient if peace is to be achieved.

What say you... move on?

In the interests of peace

Andrew

mindell

http://symbol.gaia.com — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:27:15 GMT

http://www.aamindell.net/
http://www.aamindell.net/publications-books.htm
http://www.amazon.com/Sitting-Fire-Transformation-Conflict-Diversity/dp/1887078002

Sitting in the Fire is interesting for its discussion of hidden roles in conflict mediation process.

also recomend
Marshall B Rosenberg's
Non-Violent Communication

-w

Re: Pictures from Gaza

http://mbsu.gaia.com — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:06:16 GMT

Sorry my friend, contrary to your need to hoist the burden of "expertise" upon my head, I must protest.

I am expert of nothing but my own ignorance and my need to absolve it by questioning everything, and providing tentative inconclusive answers so that I, and others, can question further, and so on and so on and so on....infinitely

Logic? Do you really believe that man's inhumanity to man is based on some kind of reason or logic?

So here's a question.

It seems clear to me that the vehemence and incredulity expressed by most of the commentors in this thread revolve around one central issue - children. But let's be more specific. What about the death of children demands our anger and condemnation.

Innocense.

If the images linked to displayed only adult civilians, men and women, would we be so incensed? Sure we would be angry, but to the point of nausea, as one poster commented? Reread the posts and see for yourself the degree of horror expressed about innocent children being slaughtered.

Why is that?

The answer is clear and simple. We perceive that children are innocent. The fact is, deep down we all sense how incredibly guilty we are for the way the world is and the way we treat each other and only children are afforded any degree of reprieve from that blanket indictment.

Of course, many of these children in the pictures, staring down at their dead and mangled siblings, may one day grow up to blow themselves up in crowded marketplaces and we will complain loudly if their suicidal vengeance takes more "innocent children."

So at what age does the blanket indictment of guilt appear for every man and women? When do we lose, no matter what we have done or not done, our innocense? Is there an age requirment? Will there ever come a time when we can once again ALL be innocent? Does that innocense demand we do, or not do, something in order to prove our innocense? When will we ALL be children (again?).

I would suggest that in your studies of conflict, whether it be in the middle east or in your own house, you go deeper than what history or, more specifically, your senses inform you is the "logical" truth.

I'll Meet You There, Bro!
mikeS

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:25:25 GMT

Mike I'm trying to understand your logic.

Any death under any circumstances is a tragedy, particularly children.

It is retaliatory fire that has killed those children.

Or would you deny Israel the right to defend itself?

I think it is entirely relevant not only who started this episode of aggression but to ask why does Hammas continue to fire rockets into Israel.

You're the expert what is the correct term for suicidal/homicidal martyrdom that the extremists know will lead to innocent deaths?

Peace

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

http://indigosol.gaia.com — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 17:15:29 GMT

Maramalade and Andrew,
                     Thank you for the perspectives and reminding me to look towards the suffering in my neighborhood where instead of wondering what to do I can actually bring the family down to the food bank and do something.

Mike,
     I always look forward towards your postings because I often feel you tap right into my thought process then expound in ways my mind works but I don't have the tools to verbalize or structure within myself. You add much to my mind soup brother! Your idea of denial of the past to move forward at first struck me as totally absurd. One of the key points being an American Jew is to "never forget." I took the never forgot very seriously and to me it meant as a Jew it was my burden to remember so my tribe never inflicts suffering on another, which in turn has led me to my dismay and disgust to how Israel has carried herself at times in her short history. Now reflecting on your thought and really looking at "never forgot" I see another thought forming. It stems from your words about the programming that led up to my 8th grade fight.

My actions.... I've always been a peaceful soul. I was never one of the kids that got all excited by a school yard brawl and ran as fast as I could to circle and watch. I had always been sickened by violence. So what led me to think that beating him was an acceptable way to end the problem? And more so what made me think I needed to be the tool of destruction? One word.... Programming.

The thought to fight didn't just enter my mind. It was encouraged. My friends, the movies, how I witnessed playground drama played out. The news showing war. And our superheros. Flying in and fighting the evil powers that inflict suffering. So there I am just a kid and wanting to help this girl. I'll be superman!!!! And beating him up is the only way a super hero gets the girl, right? And my friends and society.... Justifying my behavior every step of the way.

If we look at the current situation in the middle east I think the parallels are pretty obvious here. By nature a peaceful people put into a situation and encouraged by the past and society that violence is the only means of action. Silly on the playground... Downright destructive on the playground of our planet.

What does this have to do with pictures... That is the topic right? Programing. Two things come to mind when I view photo's of destruction. First the reaction thought, the warrior thought, "Kill those bastards blowing up and harming children!" The second thought, "Well, that's war I see images like that all the time.   What can I do?"
One leads to violence the other to apathy, none to healing. As pointed out on this thread those images are indeed important, we can't close our eyes to the reality. But realizing we can't build our actions on rash reactions prompted by photos. Especially ones that only reflect a tiny piece of the puzzle.    They are just that, a piece of a puzzle. Granted the most graphic and reactionary pieces which makes it so important we don't allow them to feed destructive or apathetic thoughts. But instead remind us of the immediate damage of hate and the desire to provide positive energy and real work to understanding both sides of the gun.

Maybe it comes down to not denying the past but saying something like, "Well that sucked! Let's not act that way anymore. How about a cup a tea... or maybe three?"
       Peace,
                    UA

Re: Pictures from Gaza

http://mbsu.gaia.com — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 16:50:04 GMT

Mike to condemn Israel for defending itself is like blaming both the Nazi's and the Jews for the concentration camps.

I am not condemning anyone and I'm curious as to where you read that in my posts.

Of course, "defense,' or more specifically, self-protection, whether a nation-state or a solitary human being, is certainly a paradigm we cherish and thus maintain. Therefore, in the name of 'defense' ALL is justified!

It's time the Arab nations got over it.

Oops! So it's their fault. Then it looks like they're getting what they deserve, eh?

Peace Angels,
mikeS

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Sun, 11 Jan 2009 16:34:05 GMT

Mike I made a study of the circumstances surrounding the setting up of the current state of Israel.

Israel is anathema to the surrounding Arab states. Why do they keep attacking it? Because they hate it's very existence.

I may be wrong but I think Egypt is the only Arab country to have diplomatic relations with Israel, and has been roundly condemned by other Arab countries for asking both Hamas and Israel to exercise restraint.

Mike to condemn Israel for defending itself is like blaming both the Nazi's and the Jews for the concentration camps.

If you want to do a comparison I find images of piles of childrens clothes and shoes of victims of the gas chambers as horrific if not more so than the images in the above link.

Systematic extermination compared to innocent victims of self defence retaliation for Hamas's rockets.

The UN agreed to the annexation (I think that is the right word) of Israel for the Jews as a result of the attempted extermination of the Jews in the holocaust. The world community recognised the Jews were a nation without a country and gave them Israel.

The Arabs that were living there were asked to remain and those that did have enjoyed the same rights as Jews ever since.

Keep in mind the Arabs don't just want the land they want to exterminate the Jews and Israeli Arabs at the same time.

It's time the Arab nations got over it.

In the interest of peace and understanding

Re: Pictures from Gaza

http://mbsu.gaia.com — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 16:04:35 GMT

Andrew,

But you're reacting to this material exactly the way certain anti-Semite organisations want you to react. You don't seem to recognise who the aggresor is.

YOU are the aggressor. You and me, everyone posting here and everyone worldwide. Until we accept this responsibility we will continue to divide and separate through our need to blame.

Actually, contrary to your accusation, I'm not picking sides. I'm saying we are ALL to blame. Indifference is merely another form of attack.

The "fundamental level" you agree with, is where the cure to our diease will be found. Surrender the details for the big picture, because the devil is always in the details, while the peace of God is in the whole.

The organisation associated with it is radical and extreme.

I see you picked a side for which to rally round.

The Arab countries vowed 60 years ago it would push all the Jews into the sea, along with any Arabs that chose to live in Jewish ruled Israel.

And there is the fundamental error which obstructs peace..."history."

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? No one knows conslusively, but we are willing to die to assert our belief about it (comparatively speaking).

60 years?! HA!

Not far back enough.

Try going back to the Big Bang or at least, to the time when man gave up four legs for two.

We're gonna have to think outside our self-protective 'box' or we will merely repeat the same thinking that got us here, bro.

Peace Angels,
mikeS

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

http://singerseeker.gaia.com — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:13:11 GMT

Ua, Missy, Mike, Andrew, Marmalade, ricosoma, gina -

I am always humbled by the honesty and depth and wisdom of the posts of members here, how with an issue this painful and difficult and complex we can bring to light so many facets of it, and refuse to stay at a superficial or knee-jerk level.

Thanks, each of you, for your contributions to this thread. You make this group what it is by your presence and light.

Love to you all,

Nicole

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:12:06 GMT

At the fundamental level I believe you are entirely correct Mike.

I think Steve Biddolph hit the nail on the head when he said

"Every man is a father to every child."

But you're reacting to this material exactly the way certain anti-Semite organisations want you to react. You don't seem to recognise who the aggresor is.

That is why I was concerned with the link. The organisation associated with it is radical and extreme.

Since the British handed over controll of Israel to the Jews in 1948, any act of war by Israel has been in defense of an attack on it's borders. It has expanded it's borders in retaliation against its attackers as it has pushed them back.

The Arab countries vowed 60 years ago it would push all the Jews into the sea, along with any Arabs that chose to live in Jewish ruled Israel.

The Jews are fighting for their right to exist, for survival. The Arabs don't have to continue this act of aggression. They don't need the land and they have unimaginable wealth.

It is a war of hate on one side and of survival on the other.

In the interests of understanding

Re: Pictures from Gaza

http://mbsu.gaia.com — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:35:40 GMT

"self-funded"?

So when I give you $2.50 to buy a big mac, you deposit that $2.50 in your bank account and then withdraw it before your trip to McDonalds so you call your purchase "self-funded." Contrary to your "research" I believe the stats I linked to speaks volumes.

It's an interconnected global economy and money (numbers on a computer screen) for bombs is dirty money and ALL our hands our filthy. We may wish to place blame, but we are all participants, no matter how hard we engage denial in order to be free of culpability.

But then, we are, conveniently, not AWARE of what we DO. Of course, that is, until someone posts pictures of our culpability and then we gasp in horror and scream "how could they!" But we will fight to protect our innocense and proclaim that our hands are clean. Note, however, that violent massacres, and mass deaths due to disease, have been occurring like clockwork throughout the 20th century. Where have we been? What have my tax dollars been used for?

The only thing we have ever learned from history is that it must be repeated and so we repeat it, compulsively!

As such, desensitization is a western phenomenon and it would seem as if we demand it because it has allowed us to so easily turn away. Maybe this is why so many turn to eastern philosophies and religions as more pure and austere in promoting peace and love. Yet, even these eastern countries, as they adopt western ideas, begin to dumb down the masses.

Desensitization minimizes and redirects attention. Western capitalist societies do this easily as capitalism demands self-perpetuation and value is accrued through monetary scales of value. When individual monetary wealth is your raison d' etre, or reason for being, what else need you be concerned with? It's all about taking care of ourselves, right?

Oh sure, we will provide 'lip-service' to peace and support our favorite charity, but deep down we see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil. Therefore, in our tiny little enclaves of indifference, we claim WE are free of evil. HA!

It would seem to me that until every single solitary individual (I include myself) accepts responsibility for the death of children in Gaza (or anywhere else for that matter) the killing can only continue.

Of course, we will resist this responsibility with all our might because, ya know, American Idol's new season is coming! YEA!!

Peace Angels,
mikeS

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:45:32 GMT

Sorry Mike you were 20% correct to the best of my research.

80% of Israels defense budged is self funded.

The rest is made up in foreign aide, the lions share of which comes from the US.

I'm still intrigued by your comment that

Desensitization is purely a western phenomenon.

Could you elaborate please?

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

http://mbsu.gaia.com — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:22:36 GMT

UA presents an interesting analogy with the 8th grade beating.

There certainly appeared to be justification in your beating of the cruel boy, if we go beyond just the beating. He terrorized the girl. However, other kids had always taunted the cruel boy which added to his cruelty which, by the way, was originally taught to him by his parents who often abused him into submission. Yet, his parents were often controlled by abuse in childhood by their parents. And one wonders where you learned as a child, that a "beating" was the final means of control (which it seems you no longer subscribe to).

Add to that a social system (school) that promotes alienation, aggression and competition, rather than relationship, negotiation and peace, and we can see that the cards have always been stacked against the cruel boy ever changing and always requiring a beating. His pain/suffering and inevitable attack has always been justified, just as yours was.

Obviously, I extrapolate only to make a point and the point is somewhat controversial. Both the Israelis and the Palestinians will need to adopt forgiveness. However, it is the forgiveness that actually claims that the past never happened. It is a leap of denial that may be the only way we can evolve and surrender vengeance.

Otherwise, the cruel boy will forever require beatings, demanding more cruelty as revenge, and more beatings, etc. This circle of fear is self-perpetuating and requires, as Einstein claimed, a different type of thinking than what caused the problem.

The thinking that caused and perpetuates the problem must be denied and completely forgotten (in other words, we must deny that history ever happened). This will require a leap of denial because we have become so utterly comfortable with our system of vengeance as justice. There is absolutely no justice in the world. Never has been, from the 8th grade boy to the Palestinians, only cycles of justified vengeance and punishment. Unless history is denied and thus, dissolved, we will continue to justify continued cycles of vengeance.

Just saying...

Peace Angels,
mikeS

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

http://benjamindavidsteele.gaia.com — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:33:42 GMT

Yep. I totally agree.

Anytime I see something in the media, I immediately consider what the spin might be. Even when unintentional, no view is unbiased. And, when intentional, there are few things more sad than violence used as propaganda. Such propaganda is too often used to promote and rationalize further violence.

Marmalade

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:05:52 GMT

I agree with the principle you are referring to Marmalade.

What I was endeavouring to do was bring a sense of perspective to people that were reacting to the horror of the photographs. Emergency services workers see as bad, sometimes worse in road carnage.

One of the things that struck me about 911 was the reaction to that tragedy that brought the airlines to their knees and has affected the ease of airline travel all over the world, when statistically the most dangerous part of the trip before and since 911 is the trip to and from the airport.

The US government used the emotional response to the horror of that day to put through such draconian laws, that had people removed themselves from the horror of those images and seen the tragedy in perspective, those laws would never have been passed and those behind 911 would not have had such a profound victory by knowing they had affected the quality of life of just about everyone in the free world.

Unless there is a balance there is always the danger of a reaction being manipulated that is out of proportion to the original episode.

Andrew

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

http://benjamindavidsteele.gaia.com — Sun, 11 Jan 2009 09:54:54 GMT

Andrew - Not that I wish to argue about it, but I don't think anyone has to chose between various sufferings in the world. As you say, all suffering is equal. I don't think that, by being moved by these pictures, people are less likely to respond to the sufferings closer to home. If anything, it reminds us of suffering in general and we become more aware of the suffering that already exists around us.

Anyways, fully appreciating the suffering in the world is not simply about stopping it. There will always be suffering in the world. First and foremost, I believe we're called to be witnesses.... and, from that standpoint, act as we are moved to act.

I can't say I'm always a good witness, but it feels like what I'm called to be. I don't know what difference it makes. I know I don't do enough... no one ever does.

As for drunk drivers, I see such people drive out of my parking ramp all of the time... as I work nights in a college town. I call the police when someone is severely drunk. It isn't that often I call because the police are already busy and they don't respond most of the time anyways. Fortunately, I guess, most drunk people only drive at night when they're most likely to have wrecks with other drunk people.

It seems to me that, even though we can never do enough, we also can only do so much.

There are so many problems in the world. I suspect that more people die from car exhaust than car accidents. And I suspect that more people die from unhealthy lifestyles than from war and genocide.

I do sympathize with your pointing out the problem with focusing on suffering far away when suffering is all around us. News of distant wars can be (and probably often is) used as a way of distracting away from the immediacy of suffering... especially for someone watching the news in relative freedom from suffering.

Its understandable I suppose. The awareness of the immensity of suffering can be quite overwhelming. I wouldn't blame the person who would rather focus on the positive all of the time. Besides, if the person doesn't feel they can do anything about it, then it does make sense to ignore it... not that suffering has much to do with what makes sense. I'm sure I'd too ignore suffering if I felt capable of it. Nonetheless, suffering finds us all eventually.

Marmalade

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

Sun, 11 Jan 2009 04:24:00 GMT

Missy I know the blocking reference was to myself but there was no offense taken.

Having worked at the coal face of mans inhumanity to man I never got used to the way people could treat children.

As horrible and tragic the images are, the misery is over for most of the children in those images.

I would find it impossible to believe that anyone would deliberately target children in the war that is taking place in the Middle East.

What I am trying to get at is while it is right to be appalled at what is happening, as bad or worse is happening in your's and my neighbourhoods and roads.

Children that day after day are subjected to domestic violence and worse.

Whether a child is killed in war or killed at the hand of an enraged, impatient or drunk driver, or at the hands of a monster, a child is still dead, leaving a grief stricken family.

Why is the attention here on a war we can do little about when we are surrounded by a carnage we can do something about?

Andrew