Personality Type and Belief

Part of the reason I started the previous thread about MBTI was as a way to set the stage for this thread.  I've been discussing MBTI with Nicole in various places.  Some of what came up was about the predominant types on a pod like this and on Gaia in general, and also about the relationship of personality types to an interest in God.  How do different types relate to religion?  Here are some links to start the discussion:

What Role Does Personality Play in Belief/Skepticism?

“Personality and motivations to believe, misbelieve and disbelieve in paranormal phenomena”

Is there a higher percentage of atheism in INTP types?

Types and Christianity

Criticalness, Integralism, and Type

Sermon on Personality Types

Religion, Spirituality and Psychological Type

The Four Spiritualities


Blessings,
Marmalade

Re: Personality Type and Belief

Cool stuff!!

According to these recent studies my type (SFJ) should be quite confident in faith and belief, which strangely I struggle with much of the time.  Belief doesn't come easy for me.  Too many puzzle pieces, I s'pose. 

Here's another link that some might find interesting, or not:

Prayer and Personality Type

Re: Personality Type and Belief

Thanks for the link, Doug! I found it interesting. Intriguing about the not-fitting, l wonder what that indicates/? maybe marmalade can help, he's better at this stuff.

Marmalade, haven't had time to read all the links. But I loved what it had to say about NFs in the last link, how well it fits us NF mods and participants here, eh?

“These folks view life as an experiment, existence as an opportunity for spiritual growth and discovery. These folks are the world’s idealists who are peacemakers and who carry the banner of peace between traditions. They are attracted by words like growth, human potential, to be oneself, to evolve one's personhood. They have a future orientation, and all quest for the secret harmony beneath all struggles and differences. These folks have a very strong mystical component. The historical examples of this path are Jesus and Gandhi. In fact, Gandhi said, “The only tyrant I accept in this world is the ‘still small voice’ within me.” In UU congregations
these folks have a sense of the whole and a vision of possibility for the future. They can
often articulate that hope and vision quite well. They are great greeters and like to stay in
touch with how people are feeling.

“This type of person loves the Tao Te Ching and would greatly appreciate these lines from
it:

The Way is unimpeded harmony;
its potential may never be fully exploited.
It is as deep as the source of all things:
it blunts the edges,
resolves the complications,
harmonizes the light,
assimilates to the world.

“These folks are not interested in getting answers on Sunday morning or having their
emotions tweaked (there are no answers, and emotions just come and go), they delight in
having a new question to explore or seeing how things are more complex and mysterious
than they thought. They want to leave the service feeling bigger and thinking more
broadly than before with an expanded sense of their identity, meaning, and present
reality.”

Love and light,

Nicole

Re: Personality Type and Belief

“Marmalade, haven't had time to read all the links. But I loved what it had to say about NFs in the last link, how well it fits us NF mods and participants here, eh?”

Nicole, yep.  This is why I was guessing there'd be a fair number of NFs here. 

However, I know about this from my own observations.  I've spent a fair amount of time on NF and NT forums.  It seems to me that there were more discussions about religion and spirituality on the INFP forum especially in terms of personal experience.  The INTP forum (and the ENTP forum) had some religious discussion, but it was much more limited and reserved.  Also, NTs tend to keep it in the realm of debate about ideas… in particular when around other NTs.  Even the NTs who visited the INFP board wouldn't involve themselves much in the religous discussions.

The God Pod is much more of a mixed group because despite the name religion isn't directly discussed much in many of the threads.  Almost everything gets discussed here and so it has a more broad appeal to both NFs and NTs.  Even so, the environment you've created here feels much more NF friendly.  Another thing is that the discussions tend to be abstract which will keep most SJs and SPs away.  But of the these SFs would be the most likely to join in because of the more Feeling style of interactions.  You've created a safe place where tender-hearted Feeling types can share with little worry of being attacked or judged.

Blessings,
Marmalade

ps On an NT dominant forum a person would  quite likely be ridiculed or at least strongly poked fun at for ending a post with something like “Blessings” or “Love”.

Re: Personality Type and Belief

Hi Marmalade,

I learn so much from you! Thanks for all these fresh insights.

And yes, NTs here must find all these blessings and loves quite annoying LOL! Thanks for putting up with me.

Love,

Nicole

Re: Personality Type and Belief

Doug,

Supposedly, SJs make up a large portion of church congregations.  You're profile says you're a pastor.  So, that says something.  If you were conflicted enough, I'd imagine you wouldn't be a pastor and maybe not attend church at all.

SJs (with Introverted Sensation - Si) tend to like structure and tradition which most churches provide.  And SFJs (with Extraverted Feeling - Fe) tend to value relationships and belonging to a group (especially if Fe is dominant).

In your blog, you mentioned being Introverted and so maybe you're an ISFJ and that would mean you'd have Si as your dominant.  There are reasons why an ISFJ may have issues with religion.  Si may manifest as an interest in facts.  A belief system that isn't clear and consistent might annoy them.

Also, the tertiary is Introverted Thinking (Ti) which means that as they grow older they become ever more interested in analysis.  This could lead to questioning of beliefs.  They might become too harshly critical towards themselves and others in terms of how well a belief is followed.

The ISFJ's inferior is Extraverted Intuition.  They wouldn't tend towards thinking in terms of abstractions and too many possibilities might overwhelm them.  But at the same time they're very conscious of this being a weakness and it may be a sore point.  They wish they were better in this area.  If they try to develop this side of themselves, they could get caught up in abstract possibilites and this would undermine any sense of belief they had.  Or they might try to go to the opposite extreme and deny all religious beliefs if they feel they have no concrete evidence to verify them or if it doesn't fit what they know from their past experience.

More directly related to belief and an internal sense of values would be Introverted Feeling which is a shadow function.  They can feel very conflicted about beliefs and become immobilized.  Or they may get stuck in personal wants which could make them feel at odds with what is expected of them from others in their church.

An ISFJ's interests and abilities generally aren't in the area of thinking about theological ideas, and many beliefs simply may seem impractical to them or otherwise disconnected from reality as they understand it.  Belief to them would be more of a practical issue, an issue of aligning their sense of self with tradition and social norms.  However, they are Introverts and so in general it takes more effort for them to deal with the issues of belonging to a church.

This is just one possible analysis.  Does that fit your experience?

Otherwise, you might fit better the descriptions and functional orderings of an ESFJ.

Blessings,
Marmalade

Re: Personality Type and Belief

See, I told you Marmalade would have a great answer! Wow, hon, you constantly amaze me with how deeply you can go with everything.

Light,

Nicole

Re: Personality Type and Belief

Marmalade,

Wow!  It's going to take me awhile to process everything you've written, but I strongly resonated with a couple of things:

Supposedly, SJs make up a large portion of church congregations.  You're profile says you're a pastor.  So, that says something.  If you were conflicted enough, I'd imagine you wouldn't be a pastor and maybe not attend church at all.

I've often thought about leaving the ministry and not attending church because of shifts in my beliefs.  But I don't (and won't) because I'm loyal almost to a fault.  I have to be honest and say that most of my sermons are persuasive-type talks to try to convince people of my point of view.  I like being right and feel inadequate when I'm not.  One of the links you gave said that most seminary students are NF being taught by NT faculty.  When they graduate they go out to SJ congregations and then wonder why the congregations don't catch his/her “vision” for ministry.  I don't have any “vision” as much as I have things I want to do with the hope that the congregation overall approves of what I'm doing.  

The ISFJ's inferior is Extraverted Intuition.  They wouldn't tend towards thinking in terms of abstractions and too many possibilities might overwhelm them.  But at the same time they're very conscious of this being a weakness and it may be a sore point.  They wish they were better in this area.

I have often wished I was more intuitive.  I have a lot of ideas, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm intuitive.  Any ideas I have are more action-oriented than they are dreams and visions.  I've been asked to “cast visions” for my congregation and it comes out of me as “let's do this and this and this and this and that– now who's with me?”

Anyway, thanks for your wonderful analysis.  Much food for thought!!

Re: Personality Type and Belief

Doug my heart goes out to you. And yes NFs taught by NTs going to SJs and wondering why the vision is uncaught. I have seen this over and over in churches. It can be literally heart breaking and bring a pastor to the brink of unbelief and despair, or even over the edge.
What a hard journey. I admire your commitment and courage.

Brightest blessings

Nicole

Re: Personality Type and Belief

Hi,

thank you Marmalade for opening this thread.

Here is a link on the internet on this topic.

An excerpt :

Peter Richardson : Four Spiritualities

• NT: Journey of Unity
• SF: The Journey of Devotion
• ST: The Journey of Works
• NF: The Journey of Harmony
  

Re: Personality Type and Belief

A complement :

NT - Journey of Unity

(I agree : I am an INTJ)

NT's need a quiet room, a simple chapel, or a Zen garden in which to meditate. They seek to bind life and nature into a unity. Buddha is an example of someone who became exposed to the world of the sick, old, and dead and wanted to learn what life was all about. He meditated and fasted to discover the inner knowledge of the truth of life. Under the Bodhi Tree of life, beside the flowing river, he avoided the temptations of the flesh and became a conqueror of his most inner enemies. This is the journey of unity, to transcend ego and lose our attachments to the material plane, and live ultimately in the present. But, for NT this is impossible because we are cut off from our senses of the life world and our feelings are detached. Another example is Albert Schweitzer whose motto was “Reverence for Life” as a way to affirm his ethics of balance of haves and have nots. The struggle for the NT is to knit together an ethics and a worldview into an integrative principle of being in the world. The character Spock on Star Trek is another example. How to practice principles of non-violence and reverence for life while on a Star Ship? The journey is to boil complexity of life and cosmos with the inner life world of abstractions and symbols. For the NT, it is an inner struggle and the life of the inner world dominates actually being in the outer world of festive and emotional life.

SPIRITUAL QUEST FOR NT's - To enter the world of the physical, care for a pet, and in time, join the world of the social. Experience to world of the senses, and seek wisdom in the flesh and blood of Dionysus. It is a big move for Apollo. The quest for NT is to find S and F.

NT - Junana Yoga - It is a path of knowledge, where we learn to hear knowledge, mull it over, sort it out, and seek bliss through its unity. Juana seeks to reunite the subject and object split by seeking a transcendental self. The inner self seeks to find relation to the global and the cosmos.

SF - Journey of Devotion

The SF is the spiritual opposite of NT. The SF will take off their shoes and feel the Earth between their toes. They will also remove their shoes at the door, and join in the festive and spontaneous moments of life. The SF likes a good pilgrimage, heroes for their worship, likes good stories, and will be festive in human experience. They prefer direct acts of service and devotion to abstract discussions of theology. Likes the flesh and blood of a Dionysian Festival, that is animated and present, rich in experience, and lots of feeling and good old natural images. Celebration is the nectar immortality. Mother Teresa is their role model. Mohammed (ISFJ) is another example. Islam means peace and submission; Muslim is one who submits. Every detail of life is significant, subject it to intricate social and legal rules. A life without guidelines is just unthinkable. Then there is St. Francis of Assisi who kissed the Leper, saw the face of suffering, and sought a life of service.

SF and Bhakati Yoga - Devotion found through love of God. Emotions are sacred, ready to fall in love, can find glorification in sacrifice, and bliss in self-surrender.

Spiritual Quest of SF - Leave the brotherhood and take a journey with N and T. Follow the heart instead of the rules, discover you intuition, and instead of surrendering to feeling, try to think about the cosmos, our position in evolution, and of course the spectacle of capitalism. Break out of the culture of traditions.

ST - Journey of Works

The ST is a journey of works, where everything in life must be put into order, everything is part of the whole, and the ST was sent here to administer the house cleaning. The spiritual journeys of ST tend toward law and order, righteousness, stewardship, being realistic, and the administrative life. Digs the codes of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Motto of the ESTJ is “Lend a hand” (Richardson, 1996: 111). Examples are Moses (ESTJ) and St. Peter, both willing to administer.

Karma Yoga and the ST - Karma attaches to the consequences of every action. Karma is the ultimate law of cause and effect. Evil deeds have evil consequences. Ace with responsibility or you will be reborn to learn the lessons you missed.

SPIRITUAL QUEST OF ST - Leave the practical and productive life on Mount Apollo for a time, and seek the lost world of Dionysus. There is more to life than a journey of work, meeting obligation and managing everyone's life. The quest of ST is to find N, the symbolic and F the feeling for the chaos of life.

NF - Journey of Harmony

NF is the child in the fairytale, the character in the myth who is on a journey of self discovery. Harmony is not the path to order of the ST, or the logic of the universe of the NT, here harmony is something different. Harmony means that there is a flow to the humanity of life, and it is the job of the NF to self-actualize while taking their voyage of discovery. Harmony is life in a world and a cosmos the Intuitives can see in all its complexity, but F's like to feel good. Harmony is a voyage of self-actualization in the great spiritual flow of life and chaos. In this definition of harmony, disharmony is a given and the flux of change is the challenge of life. Joseph (old testament) is an example. He is in the chaotic flow of life, gets a vision of life potential, and you know the rest of the story. Other examples include Jesus and Gandhi, both Charismatics of vision in touch with the flow of life. The polar opposite of Jesus is Peter whose ST style is an obvious vexation. And a quote from Beth Mott about Gandhi - “The only tyrant I accept in this world is the 'still small voice' within me.” Mohandas Mahatma Gandhi (Burgess, 1983).

NF is a quest that can never be satisfied, since a spark of insight will send them along a new path

NF and Raja Yoga - Regulation and discipline of body, the physical emotional and mental brining one more personal power. The self is brought into harmony with the cosmos.

NF Spiritual Quest - NF can find spiritual challenge by encounters with S and T.

Best regards.

Serge

Re: Personality Type and Belief

What if personality was a myth based on habit and expectation?

If I am 'introverted,' doesn't that only mean in social situations, I have tended to act a certain way?

We tend to believe that means I am always GOING to act that way… thus, we create the idea of introversion as a static trait. 

What if we're wrong about that?? 

You could say that babies have innate tendancies: what if those come from past habits too?  From other lives?  (ever heard the story of the toddler who had a anthropologist's knowledge about ancient egypt, down to the layout of streets?)
  
What if personality was totally malliable?   What if we could be any personality we wanted to, at any point we wanted to be it, if only we knew how?


Signed,

-A former introvert who shied away from public speaking and or debate at all costs

Re: Personality Type and Belief

Serge

C’est excellent. Merci beaucoup. I loved the journey through the different spiritual paths. It is good to understand each other better

Alan

Introversion and extroversion are a lot more complicated than in popular parlance. It doesn’t just mean if you are shy or outgoing but also how you thought process. And people can change dramatically. I used to be a total introvert and was terrified of strangers, awkward and shy around acquaintances. I still dislike huge parties. But I am very extroverted now in most ways.

Love

Nicole

Re: Personality Type and Belief

I agree with you Nicole!

I suppose what I'm saying is all personality characteristics are totally changable.  It makes sense to me then that introversion and extroversion are not considered static… I guess what I'm saying is that all 'traits' are only definable as responses to stimuli.  A 'trait' is a meme of response… a response pattern. 

But if we are all capable of an infinate range of responses, and only tend to group towards one kind of responses because we believe in our own 'traits…'  well, then, wouldn't we be best off perhaps redefining personality? 

Re: Personality Type and Belief

redefining personality? I'm game! Suggestions?

Love,

Nicole

Re: Personality Type and Belief

Hi Alan and Nicole,

in fact Introversion and Extraversion are two polarities.

Generally, we have a expressed tendency. But, in fact, we live in a continuum. Sometimes, depending of the situation an introvert may behave as an extravert and the contrary.

It is the same with Intuition and Sensing and also Judging and Perceiving.

Best regards.

Serge

Re: Personality Type and Belief

Hi all,

I have a fairly good working knowledge of personality types in traditional understanding, as I am the child and brother of psychologists and the (unproud) owner of a bachelor's degree in the same. So, I've been given at least a working understanding of…

Yes, a continuum is what's being offered, but what I'm saying is, the concept of personality type falls flat if you look at the fact that all you can use to judge it is a pattern of behavior. That depends on past behavior and analysis of it.

However, as we here have all admitted, with new stimuli can often come a complete shift in behavior. This is well documented… at best, psychology, the 'mother' of the idea of personality types, works on trends. If something has happened 9 times, it's likely to happen ten.

But what if the very prediction that because it's happened nine times, it's going to happen ten, is a determining effect on the tenth occurrence? In fact, psychology knows this to be true: take the study where two groups of girls were given math tests. the first group is told girls can't do well at math. the second is not told this.

The girls told they can't do well don't do as well as the girls who are given the test with no precondition.

Therefore, even saying “I am an extrovert” is a determining factor on future behavior.

But what if it goes beyond introversion and extroversion?

A situation we've probably all seen in adolescence or beyond:

A “uncool” person engages in X behavior. No one notices, or cares. Except a “cool” person. Who doesn't publicy recognize the behavior, but instead copies it.

When the “cool” person copies the behavior, the behavior is seen as cool by everyone else… and the group decides the “cool” person is responsible for the behavior's introduction to the group, thus the behavior is recognized as “cool,” the cool person's “coolness” is reinforced, and the hapless “uncool” person feels more uncool, being reinforced that even when he or she does cool things, it's just not as cool as a cool person.

In this case, the personality trait of “cool” is not dependent on behavior, it's dependent on the perception of coolness. Because the cool person is cool, so is whatever they do.

Now, once the cool person believes they are cool, are they not more likely to engage in “cool” behaviors? and for the uncool person, are they more likely to both be shut out of 'cool' behaviors and to embrace other behaviors?

Or, consider intelligence as a trait. Wait, we already covered that: tell a girl she can't do something, and if she believes it, she's less likely to achieve as well doing it.

Or lets take another look at it: in a famous case, a schoolteacher told her students that brown-eyed people were smart, and blue and green eyed people were stupid. Brown eyes meant coolness, attractiveness, all that is good… green and blue eyes meant stupidity, all that was bad. Guess what? The green and blue eyed kids did worse in school after that.

Why? BECAUSE THEY BELIEVED IT.

Personality is merely who one believes/knows one is, and who society decides one is. It's a belief of the self gathered from past data and past perceptions the world has ascribed to the self. But as we know, these traits can never be called static, far too much data exists that shows situations in which they are drastically, dramatically altered. As such, it's like a grid placed over an individual that limits the individual's range of choice, based on perception of identity.

I am saying, from a 'spiritual' perspective, there are no limits to what response patterns any individual can use for any situation. You can go left fifty times in a row, but as long as you believe you can go right, you can go right.

Me, I have no personality. I accept within myself a full range of options at all times. I have only decisions I have made in the past…

A different way to look at personality: in the present, when faced with new stimuli, “I” have an understanding that I've done X 5,000 times, and Y 50 times, and never once done Z. (this is all theoretical, including my responses and emotions later on, for the record.)

Therefore, I feel far more comfortable predicting what will happen if I do X, and as such, X is a safe decision.

Furthermore, having done X 5,000 out of 5,050 times, I believe of myself “I'm the X type of guy.”

Y, as a decision, is a bit risky. I'm not really a Y type of guy at all.

Z is a total unknown. That response is for other people, not me at all. I'm not a Z type of guy.

In this scenario, clearly I am going to do X. I believe I am an “X” guy, it stands to reason, I'd do X. Right?


Lets look at this scenario again, from the perspective that my “self” is beyond all traits, that traits are just past history, and I have total freedom of choice:

In this situation, I can do either X, Y, or Z. I've done X quite a few times before. I've done Y once or twice and Z never.

I evaluate my situation… while it is true I've done X a lot, honestly, it has never really made me that happy. I was much happier doing Y… but I stopped, because for a time I didn't believe Y could work for me. I see now it can work, but I have to believe it.

Logically, however, given this specific scenario, I decide that Z may work even better than Y. X, as a standard choice, has not been as effective as I have liked. So, what I'm looking at here is simply the known choice versus the unknown.

The closest thing to a personality I have in this scenario is data extrapolated from experience.

The question then becomes: “Is my 'personality' working for me? Or shall I change?”

What I was getting at in my above posts here was that, realizing this, I found my “personality” was based as much as how people reacted to me as anything, perhaps more… how they framed me, how they saw me… and their framing and seeing helped create actions and states which did not work for me. So, I changed my personality. Or, more accurately, I left mine behind. It's possible. We are not our personalities. In every second, we are all brand-new. (it's true!)

Re: Personality Type and Belief

I love that! all brand-new!

Hugs,

Nicole

Re: Personality Type and Belief

Yes, it's true; I'm seeing it happen every day, where people [Alan and myself included] are stopping to think of what about our 'selves' we are attracting into being by carrying specific self-images or world views in our minds' eyes.

On recognising own power to change pretty much anything you put your focus on, you realise that really everything is at your disposal if you see it such; that is, if the outcome that you are seeking is considered quite important enough in your development. I stressed 'considered' because it requires a pause and some analysis to determine what is working from what is not and to prioritise this, based on your personal intentions and desires.

As a Virgo, for example [I won't go into MBTI too much presently because I was 'told' my personality traits first as a Virgo… I did much of the other personality profiling later on and mastered them as an HR professional…], I am supposed to be one nitpicky chick. Some observation and reflection on people who have accepted this characterisation showed me that nitpicky chicks [or chicos, whatever] tend to end up pushing their people away from them when they insist on this behaviour.

The more important thing for my life was - is - harmony, and love all around me. So I had to consider my choices and in particular, choose my battles, to temper the specific character traits I was predisposed to. With practice I have become quite a mellow chick that just can't be bothered with little things. I do enjoy my hugs and my loving very much as a result of those choices though. :D

Only when I am out of sync, out of balance, do I tend to switch to some of those same behaviours I don't admire. So the emphasis is on retaining my balance at all times, rather than attempting to control any situations or outcomes any more.

Hope this adds a bit of value. Sincerest regards to you.

sherri

Re: Personality Type and Belief

The way of harmony. another NF :)

thanks so much for sharing, i really enjoy what you and Alan are living and creating, it is very inspiring

love

nicole

Re: Personality Type and Belief

I'd say we aren't our personalities and we aren't not our personalities.  For people who desire to be free of their personality, that is part of their personality.  For people who project personality expectations onto others, that is part of their personality.  Those responses to personality theory quite likely could themselves be partially predicted by personality traits.

My view of personality is my view on all of reality.  There are patterns we can observe, but we can't know if those patterns are absolute.  Or if relative, we can't know to what degree and in what ways.  We can theorize about these patterns, but those theories are always open to question.  We can experiment and test these theories, but we are limited by the subjectivity of our experience and by the difficulty to be objective (even in science) about subjectivity.

Yes, patterns can change, but science has shown plenty of factors that don't change or that don't change much (genetics. brain biology, etc).  There is a limited range in which change can occur.  Someone who starts out as an Introvert can learn more Extraverted behaviors, but they won't likely ever be able to act as Extraverted as someone who has been that way their whole life.  We aren't born as blank slates.

Another thing is that there are many different factors going on here.  There is a distinction between traits and behavior.  There is a distinction between traits and function-attitudes.  There is a distinction between types and temperaments.  All of these factors and theories overlap, but they are separate issues.

Typologists and trait theorists both agree that their is long-term stability to the personality and that usually (barring some major event such as trauma) personality doesn't change dramatically.  Both agree that their theories are separate from behavior.  Yes, behavior changes.  An Introert can learn to act more Extraverted, but still it will take mor energy for this person to use behavior.  He will need to withdraw at some point to recharge.  OTOH an all out Extravert would find withdrawing to be draining.

Limitations aren't a bad thing.  Without limitation, there also isn't choice… because its limitations that clarify what our choices are.  I don't feel I'm explaining this well, but I balk at the New Age perspective of putting limitation in the place of Christian sinfulness.  Limitation doesn't need to be overcome.  It just needs to be seen clearly.  I see change and transformation from a more Taoist type of view.  Limitation has its problems, but so does change.  Neither is more real than the other.  In fact, reality couldn't exist without both stability and dynamism… yin and yang so to speak.

Anyways, both typology and traits theory leave room for change to occur.  Traits theory puts everything on a continuum and so nobody is absolutely any particular thing… just tendencies.  Typology, even though its functions aren't on a continuum, does have various theories of how development tends to occur.  In fact, it seems to me that the typology field is obsessed with helping people change.  First, you have to know who you are before you can attempt to be something else.

I'm all for change, but I'm against the view that change has to defy any and all limitations.  Change isn't mere personal choice.  Change doesn't need to be forced.  Change is natural and should be allowed to take its natural course.  Even change occurs in predictable patterns.  This is what is called development and there are many psychological and spiritual theories about it.

Yes, I agree that the social expectations of others is an issue.  Yes, personal habits are always a challenge.  But typology theory isn't directly concerned with these factors.  Functions are the way the mind operates and exist prior to the effect of social expectations and prior to the development of personal habits.  For instance, infants immediately show a preference for Introversion or Extraversion.  Traits theory has discovered what appears to be physiological correlates in the brain.

Nonetheless, I don't believe we are simply limited to biology.  There is so much we don't understand about consciousness, and I see little evidence to conclude that the mind as an epiphenomenon of the brain.  We are complex beings.  I do feel that we influence ourselves through our attitudes and that we influence reality through our perceptions, but reality influences us right back.  Jung's typology is based in an archetypal view, and later in life Jung came to see that the archetypes aren't limited to our personal minds.

I don't know what all of this adds up to other than that nobody really knows.  All we can say is that there are patterns.  And I think that its pretty cool that not only humans but the entire of the universe exists in patterns.

Blessings,
Marmalade

Re: Personality Type and Belief

Well, speaking for myself, as one who “desired to be free of personality,” the following is an inaccurate statement:

“For people who desire to be free of their personality, that is part of their personality.”

I can only speak for myself.  For myself, a desire that came and passed cannot be part of my personality.  It passed because you can only desire a state you are not in.  I am in the state, therefore, I no longer desire it, therefore, it is not my personality.  Even if I acknowledged such existed. 

As to the rest, surely, it's a matter of belief.  : )

A

Re: Personality Type and Belief

I'd like to carry this thought through a little by asking friends here this question:

Do you believe it is possible to evolve to a point where you move past the distinction of being non-decisive [indecisive isn't quite what I'm working with…] about the self you bring to the world, to being decisive about it, whether one takes the decision to change or not?

In other words, today one might believe that 'some people make those big decisions, others don't; that isn't for me…', but in some time in the future, circumstances not defined presently for this discussion - although I'm open to hearing examples if they're significant - one could change their mind and see themselves possibly as being in that category of thinkers and doers…

What do you guys think? I'll share some experiences in due course. Thanks! sherri

Re: Personality Type and Belief

Hmm, Alan, that's a difficult one! Got me stumped! :)

Sherri, could you explain further what you mean? Maybe I'm just tired, but I don't follow, or could you begin with an example or two?

Love,

Nicole  

Re: Personality Type and Belief

Yes, certainly. I've met lots of people who, today, would be certain it's impossible to achieve a specific result, period.  I say to them: 'Hey, anything's possible!' in my typical, 'God's back is broad' perspective! They INSIST it is the case. At some point, on guidance, I just shut up and don't try convincing any more.

A few months later - or days, even - those same persons would show up and they would say to me 'You know that I  should really try so and so?' Often they do not even remember arguing vehemently with me on the subject! Evidently their  beliefs had evolved within that time. They had really naturally evolved. In the earlier stage, they couldn't even hear what I was saying, such was the state of their minds, their thinking, what they believed.

I guess I would comment to say, we are all works in progress perceptually and today's feeling of 'life is always hard' could be in a few months time 'life shouldn't be this way' and ultimately 'life is beautiful' etc. But so much depends on your mental state and your openness to possibilities and willingness to believe in more. Your words and actions tend to follow sequentially…

Blessings, sherri

Re: Personality Type and Belief

yes, sherri, we do change and grow, often in ways unseen by us, especially when just careening through our lives. one of the great things i've noticed about Gaia and the blogs and blog discussions, and this pod and many others, is that people have the opportunity every day to be much more conscious about every aspect of their life. So they are more likely to observe how their perceptions are developing too.

I was talking with a friend this week about how much his off-Gaia blog demonstrated how far he has come just in the past year. So it's a general attribute of blogging, even without the comments. but the comments can be very enlightening too.

thanks for explaining. i agree that when you open fully to life, amazing things happen every day.

love

nicole 

Re: Personality Type and Belief

I feel this discussion has gotten a bit off topic.  We can debate about whether personality is who we really are and we can debate how much control we have over our lives, but this doesn't specifically pertain to the relationship between personality and religion.  I guess if your belief is that there is no causal relationship, then there really isn't anything more that can be said about the topic (besides simply reiterating your point). 

If our opinions are just based on our (differing) beliefs rather than on some form of evidence, then there is no basis for a discussion.  However, if you have scientific research about how personality traits and types can be changed dramatically by the power of belief, then show it.  Its quite likely that such research exists.  Or even if you have an anecdote that can give some insight about how belief can influence personality in a fundamental way (ie beyond mere behavioral changes), please share it.  I'd prefer that we have a discussion based on evidence instaed of just opinions… by which I don't mean to imply that I only want to hear from people who agree with me.  I really don't know what the relationship is between all of this, but I'm curious to explore the possibilities.

I'm fine with everyone having different opinions, but I started this thread because I wanted to discuss my interest in typology and I thought others might share my interest.  But if you don't find typology interesting, you aren't forced to discuss the subject.  The possibility of change beyond the (real or false) limitations of personality is also an interesting topic and I'd love to discuss it.  However, it might be better to start another thread to discuss that separately.  Still, feel free to continue to speak about it here to the extent that it relates to the topic.  

To just make a quick note, I've gone back and forth with my opinion on how stable personality type is and how much control we have over this kind of thing.  I grew up with New Thought and so I was raised with the belief that I have enormous control, but I've questioned that as I've grown older.  Either way, personality is intriguing to me.  Even if you assume types aren't fixed, typology still offers a useful language in which to describe our subjective experience.  Like any language, it helps us communicate with eachother.  And yet I understand that the menu isn't the meal.  

I know that personality isn't everything.  And in the big scheme of things isn't even all that important (then again, not much of anything that humans occupy themselves with is all that important).  Despite this, lets for the moment play around with the possibilities.  Whatever our respective beliefs are, let us suspend them temporarily and just see where the ideas and evidence lead us.  How about we consider these patterns and discover what they can tell us if we listen to them. 

When Jung developed his typology, he was basing it on his study of thousands of years of human contemplation and observation.  These patterns get at a collective wisdom that reflects some of the earliest insights humans have had about their own behavior.  These observed patterns are important even if all they tell us is about how we humans tend to observe ourselves.  Even if you believe they are false limitations that we place on ourselves, it is still good to learn about them so that you can learn how to be less limited (maybe something akin to the idea that you have to become someone before you can become no one).  

This gets at a major aspect of what connects personality and belief.  To the ancient mindset, there wasn't a separation between the wisdom of self-understanding (psycholgy) and the wisdom of spiritual understanding (religion).  Personality goes way beyond persona.  Personality speaks to how we experience ourselves within the whole of reality, to how we relate to God even.  Until recent times, most people perceived the divine as having a specific personality.  The personality of a culture's god was part and parcel with cultural identity of those who belonged to that culture.   

Its interesting that it has been brought up in this thread the idea of being free of personality because we moderns also have a tendency of wanting to be free of the constraints of our culture.  We moderns idealize freedom, and oddly freedom has become the social identity for many people especially here in the West.  Until we die or become enlightened, we seem incapable of not taking on some kind of identity (be it a sense of personality, or a social role, or even an archetypal way of being) and most of us have multiple identities for the different aspects of our lives (I like the theory that everyone is a multiple personality which might be one of the best criticisms of the fixedness of types).  

We moderns are more focused on individuality (freedom, responsibility, self-empowerment, etc).  And we feel that the the social aspects of personality are as constraining as traditional religion.  We don't want to be told how we should be or what we should do.  And in many ways this sense of freedom that came with social advance has become a reality for many individuals in the industrialized world.  However, the vast majority of people in the world still feel a strong need for the stability of traditional religion and I'd say that this relates to the need of people in general about having a stable sense of self (both in terms of personality and persona).

Blessings,
Marmalade

Re: Personality Type and Belief

Thanks, Marmalade, for expressing your views so eloquently and helping get us back on track.

Love,

Nicole

Re: Personality Type and Belief

Hey Nicole… your presence is always appreciated.

I don't know if we're back on track exactly since I'm not entirely sure what my original intention was in starting this thread.  Mainly, I was just curious and I thought others might be curious.  But, anyways, hopefully this helps people to understand where I am coming from in my thinking.

I've spent many hours studying typology and so I do take it seriously.  This isn't to say I'm a loyal follower of typology theory.  I spend hours studying lots of things.  Typology has its limitations, but I do think that the world would be a better place if more people had a deeper understanding of the dynamics of personality and interpersonal relating. 

For instance, so much of the conflict I see online seems to come from personality differences.  Sometimes differences are just differences, and not a matter of being right or wrong.  That is what I've learned from typology.  I'm more willing to see another's perspective if I take into account personality types.  Even though I'm not perfect in this ability, I'm much better at it than I used to be.

In life, there are many tools we can use to improve ourselves.  Typology and positive thinking are two such tools (integral theory is another tool I like).  In my opinion, they're not in conflict because neither is an absolute truth.  They're just tools.  I try to use them in the ways that they're useful.  But its good to have more than one tool in your toolbox.  As they say, if all you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail.

Blessings,
Marmalade

Re: Personality Type and Belief

That is a good saying, Marmalade. Let us expand the tools in our relational toolbox as much as possible.

Love,

Nicole