Jesus...man or god...

Ok im just replying to the question.. I think Jesus was a messenger sent by god to tell the Jewish people, and non believers of god, about gods message ,and to sort of “striaghten” up the Jewish people. I do not believe Jesus is god, but that we are all gods children in a way. I know that sounds kind of odd. But how could a creator be killed by his creation? Just a thought.. Have a good day everyone!

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Dear Kendra, not strange at all! Welcome, and feel free to share on any topic here.

Love and light,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

I must say I do believe that God is both fully God and fully  man…In John 1:1-4 says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.  In him was life and the life was the light of men.”  Here John refers to Christ as “the Word” and says he was “with God” and “was God.”  Also, John 20:30-31 says, “Now Jesus did many signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in the this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.”

Also, the question of how can the creation kill the creator I think is a good one.  But I think it can be answered.  No one took Jesus' life.  His creation did not forcefully kill the creator by force it was given up.  John 10:17-18 says, “For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.  No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord.  I have authority to lay it down and I have authority to take it up again.  This charge I have received from my Father.”

Re: Jesus...man or god...

indeed Chase, this is at  the core of what we believe as Christians. A great mystery, and in Paul's words about the cross, either a stumbling block or foolishness (or both) depending on who you are as someone who does not believe this message….

but it always makes me stop and wonder, those words at the beginning of John “En arche ho logos…” stunningly pure and stark.

love and light,

nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

I don't believe that Jesus was God. He was probably a good man and a preacher of his faith, but not God.
I don't think that anyone can really understand or even imagine God because he (or she) transcends anything we could grasp.
Therefore, I believe Jesus was not God because I don't believe that God can be reduced to human like that.
I do believe in a higher power, I just don't believe I could ever really know what that is.

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Thanks for sharing Tifster, it's good to have you here in the discussion,

Love,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

It is true that God is transcendant above His creation but the Bible also teaches that God is immanent or He remains in creation (which doesn't mean that he is creation, it means He is actively involved in creation.  The God of the Bible isn't an abstract deity or removed from creation at all.  The entire Bible is a narrative of God's relationship to himself (the trinity) and us (creation, fall, redemption).  Job affirmed that plants and animals depend on God; “In his hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind” (Job 12:10).  The apostle Paul affirms in Acts 17:25,2 that God, “gives to all men life and breath and everything” and that “in him we live and move and have our being.”  And one more verse which affirms God's transcendance and immanence is Ephesians 4:6, “one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.” 

Also, I feel that if you don't believe that Jesus is God, you cannot believe that Jesus was a good man.  Let me explain.  C.S. Lewis said,

“A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jeus said would not be a great moral teacher.  He would either be a lunatic–on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg–or else he would be the Devil of Hell.  You must make yhour choice.  Either this man was, and is, the Son of God; or else a madman or something worse.  You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill HIm as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call him Lord and God.  But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher.  He has not left that open to us.  He did not intend to.”

So, the Jesus of the Bible is either a liar, Lord, or lunatic.  He cannot be anything else.  Jesus claimed that he was God (John 1:1-4, John 20:28).  A mere man claiming that he is God is both a liar and especially a lunatic. 

I also thank you all for your responses.

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Jesus was not God since this would be an objectification of that which is beyond substance and form. However, Christ Mind seems to have been the message (similar to Buddha Mind) that Jesus taught through “I and the Father are One.” Essentially, the message has been abrogated and nullified by the 'messiah-form'  which the judeo-christian religions advocate as the quintessential focus of all worship. The egoic mind requires a 'form' represent God. Problem is that focus on forms may dissociate and displace from Truth.

The Jesus of Christ Mind was a liar and a lunatic because the Truth that is realized from that correspondence is completely opposite of what the world teaches or what the senses inform us is true. This is because the message proclaims “son of God” as not the manifestation of an individual identify, but of a “sonship” of unified minds. The message that “I and the father are One,” must be all-inclusive and, therefore, no one is excluded. 

But then, I'm just saying…

Peace Angels,
mike S 

Re: Jesus...man or god...

To see Jesus as God does not limit our view. To understand the three persona's of the trinity we have to endeavor to understand the Transcendent Father, the Immanent Son, and the enacting Holy Spirit.

Many here on the board can appreciate the transcended aspect of Godhead but fail to grasp the mystery or revelation of Jesus the man. We have no problem affirming his human qualities but fail to see where he differ from all of us (which is extraordinary since his actions speak louder than claims).

I find it staggering to realize that many many people have a very difficult time assessing another human being. People find it excruciating to find that some have gone further than themselves. Why is this so hard to accept? Psychologically it must mean that, even though we most likely do recognize this difference between people, we can't bear to admit to it. Somehow we have failed to see that it doesn't hurt to recognize these differences. in fact, it actually liberates and enables you to move forward. Humility is calling a spade a spade.

Jesus was unique. He holds out a mystery that pertain to him alone. Similar but not the same as what the Buddha presents. Each one has to be understood in its own context.

Many people here on the board have had transcendent experiences, no doubt authentic ones. But that does not give us automatically insight into the whole range of meaning inherent in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.

A big mistake is to “advaita” any teaching just because the underlying nature transcend any specific creed. Once we found our ground of being we must use that as our base to fearlessly investigate the mysteries, without coloring it with our own opinions. Dare to try to understand what Jesus as the son of God means.

Once we realize the meaning we will come to see why Jesus have made such an impact on world history, and we will bow our head in recognition and in humility.

There is no need to investigate these truths if you don't want to, but then it's better to keep silent once the subject is breached. That is a much better approach then to paint a personal description of transcendent philosophy and calling it Jesus, or Christ mind and the like. No doubt, there is some truth to statements of the kind but then there is no need to use the name of the historical Jesus. Since his name pertains to him, a historical figure, and to his work. It is quite specific.

Just because we all share in the oneness of God does not mean we are the same. Liberation comes when we can live with both.

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Chase, Mike and Bjorn, thank you so much for these well thought-through perspectives.

Chase, I've always enjoyed CS Lewis, and personally found for many years his “Liar, Lunatic or Lord” argument most persuasive. Over the years, I realise more and more how limited that can be to those who are not resonant with the Christian perspective.

Mike, you said:

Jesus was not God since this would be an objectification of that which is beyond substance and form. However, Christ Mind seems to have been the message (similar to Buddha Mind) that Jesus taught through “I and the Father are One.” Essentially, the message has been abrogated and nullified by the 'messiah-form'  which the judeo-christian religions advocate as the quintessential focus of all worship. The egoic mind requires a 'form' represent God. Problem is that focus on forms may dissociate and displace from Truth.

Certainly we must be careful of that pull to limit God to what can be contained in human form, as seductive and natural as it is. But as Bjorn says, that is not what Christianity means, though perhaps as individuals we may fall into that.

Bjorn,

Many here on the board can appreciate the transcended aspect of Godhead but fail to grasp the mystery or revelation of Jesus the man. We have no problem affirming his human qualities but fail to see where he differ from all of us (which is extraordinary since his actions speak louder than claims).

To those of us who are Christians find it relatively easy to appreciate the mystery and revelation of Jesus, yet since this requires faith, it is not a purely intellectual approach, and may seem almost impossible to some.

I find it staggering to realize that many many people have a very difficult time assessing another human being. People find it excruciating to find that some have gone further than themselves. Why is this so hard to accept?

I can think of a number of possibilities why that would be the case. At the same time, it is possible that people do believe that others are more advanced spiritually than they without recognising Jesus' unique role in history, again a faith-dependent perspective.

Psychologically it must mean that, even though we most likely do recognize this difference between people, we can't bear to admit to it. Somehow we have failed to see that it doesn't hurt to recognize these differences. in fact, it actually liberates and enables you to move forward. Humility is calling a spade a spade.

That is one possibility. As I indicated, others exist as well. People are complex in their thinking and believing and motivations.

Context is vital, indeed.

Many people here on the board have had transcendent experiences, no doubt authentic ones. But that does not give us automatically insight into the whole range of meaning inherent in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.

Right, nor does it automatically give insight into a host of other things. Experiences are just that - experiences, not wisdom and insight in and of themself, though we may learn and grow wise from them, over time, with openness and by the grace of God.

A big mistake is to “advaita” any teaching just because the underlying nature transcend any specific creed. Once we found our ground of being we must use that as our base to fearlessly investigate the mysteries, without coloring it with our own opinions. Dare to try to understand what Jesus as the son of God means.

I don't think it's possible to investigate objectively, our opinions and many conscious and unconscious factors are always there as we interpret the universe. Part of the great blog symposium, actually…

Once we realize the meaning we will come to see why Jesus have made such an impact on world history, and we will bow our head in recognition and in humility.

When we believe, yes, but not all who investigate will believe.

There is no need to investigate these truths if you don't want to, but then it's better to keep silent once the subject is breached. That is a much better approach then to paint a personal description of transcendent philosophy and calling it Jesus, or Christ mind and the like. No doubt, there is some truth to statements of the kind but then there is no need to use the name of the historical Jesus. Since his name pertains to him, a historical figure, and to his work. It is quite specific.

I think it's important that we always give each other the freedom to express our thoughts and opinions respectfully, even if we don't believe others have a valid approach. After all, we could be wrong in our judgment, we could have something important to learn from another.

Love and peace,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Nicole,

Thanks for the response.

Mike, you said:

Jesus was not God since this would be an objectification of that which is beyond substance and form. However, Christ Mind seems to have been the message (similar to Buddha Mind) that Jesus taught through “I and the Father are One.” Essentially, the message has been abrogated and nullified by the 'messiah-form'  which the judeo-christian religions advocate as the quintessential focus of all worship. The egoic mind requires a 'form' represent God. Problem is that focus on forms may dissociate and displace from Truth.

Certainly we must be careful of that pull to limit God to what can be contained in human form, as seductive and natural as it is. But as Bjorn says, that is not what Christianity means, though perhaps as individuals we may fall into that.



So Nicole,

In this period of time, this day and age, with consistent judeo-christian rifts and sectionalizing, with almost ceaseless doctrinal alteration, what does Christianity mean?
Is there one informative doctrine or message that is unique and exclusive to the christian dogma, separate from any other religion, and that has stood the test of time?

Or is there only individual interpretations.

What is the foundation for which the 'house' stands.

I'm not being debative or pugnacious, just curious…

Peace Angel,
mike S

Re: Jesus...man or god...

i think that the central difference between Christians and others is that for Christians, we understand all reality to come to a focus in the person of Jesus - Jesus's life, death, resurrection and ongoing spiritual lordship and companionship are the foundations of our life and praxis. non-christians may see Jesus as important or meaningful but not central and life-defining.

of course, the “devil is in the details”, as they say, of how we understand Jesus and live out his message and love.

does that help?

love,

nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

The trinity is useful for egoic mind to separate and divide up aspects of the absolute, when in reality to divide and separate may obstruct realization of the whole. Also, i feel we must be careful in formulating ideations of a “Transcendent Father” as this may dissociate from the Spirit Within. I imagine one could conceptualize a transcendent deity or  a theistic-otherness, and the judeo-christian ideologies are founded on this perspective. I suppose if one is lifted up from that concept and not belittled or abnegated. Problem as I see it, is religions attempt to aggrandize religion at the expense of man inner. Just think, if Source/God were really 'in' you, what would be the point of “church.”

I imagine those that correspond with Spiritual Oneness may not SEE “differences” as dividing, but as unifying. However, if another's rise in this worldly plane causes even the slightest inner disturbance to us, than we may need to review what and how we have judged another, from lack or abundance. I often find it disconcerting that so many need to assess others so frequently and suffer unecessarily because of that assessment from lack.

I do believe that both Jesus and Buddha's teaching are of course context bound, however, the message is inherently the same and will eventually lead to the same realization of univeral-inner-wholeness.

Through Chrsitian-Advaitist contexts one may realize a richer tapestry of thought that may aid in experiencing “what Jesus as the son of God means.” To be bound by any one traditional thought pattern or path may delay understanding through a “dogmatic slumber” (Keirkegarrd).

Liberation will come when differences exist as exterior to the deeper connection within that unifies all. At that point differences will no longer matter and no longer need be emphasized, but will exist nonetheless.

Just saying…

Peace Angels,
mike S

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Hi Nicole,

Seeing is believing. Investigation, or seeking, is really just interesting if we find. So we seek, investigate, in order to come upon an answer, to find. And of course it is possible to find a correct answer, an objective truth. If it weren't we all would be doomed to endless samsara and ignorance. That's why there are teachers, gurus, saviours, friends to help us, to guide us, to point the way. There are truths that are real and objective for all to see. That's why he said: Let those who have ears hear…

Dear Mike,

Oneness never needs to be a reason not to investigate, or not to distinguish differences. Oneness makes it possible to discriminate clearly. And it is so enlightening.

Rigid adherence to dogma never serves liberation, but sticking to fundamental tenets in order to clarify important points serves in elucidating the richness of spiritual experience.

The Church, or for that matter, the Sangha, is a natural offspring of the lives of awakened individuals. I never understood this until I joined a community myself. I never understood St. Pauls letters in the new testament until I realized what community was all about. It is not a lonely hearts club. It's about sharing something deeply spiritual together that cannot be experienced by one self. Christianity is not a private philosophy; its heart is in its communion. Jesus speaks lovingly about this in the end of the Gospel of St. John.

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Bjorn,

Oneness never needs to be a reason not to investigate, or not to distinguish differences. Oneness makes it possible to discriminate clearly. And it is so enlightening.

I get what you are saying and I would only add that corresponding with Being-in-the world or the ground of Being may be an end to discriminating differences or “judge not lest ye be judged.” To me, this means that when you judge (discriminate) another you essentially condemn your 'self' to said judgment (and the guilt inherent in that). In the all-inclusive ground of Being (God) there are no differences to be SEEN, since the eyes are no longer relied on as proof, but something deeper and more profound.

Rigid adherence to dogma never serves liberation, but sticking to fundamental tenets in order to clarify important points serves in elucidating the richness of spiritual experience.

I agree, yet, I struggle with the idea of “sticking to fundamental tenets.” Tenets as postulated by whom? My issue is not with the “tenets” of Christianity, as many resonate with me personally. My issue is when it is proclaimed that to believe this…requires this correlate be unequivocally accepted as well. Can we not accept this of chirstianity and also this of hindusim and this of advaita vedanta, and this of judaism, and this of Buddhism, etc, etc?

Christianity is not a private philosophy; its heart is in its communion. Jesus speaks lovingly about this in the end of the Gospel of St. John.

Yes, but it does have a tendency to exclude “non-believers,” as do all religions. If we experience love through an exclusive communion or satsang, can we superimpose that upon the parts of the world we fear? If not, then what is the purpose of communing? Source/God does not apportion off parts of the whole to be blessed, (I suspect that is our doing) but is revealed in whole or not at all. All else is merely clues to the whole.

Peace Angels,
mike S

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Thanks Mike, I really appreciate your reply.

Well, no need to accept or agree with anything unless it's been our experience. Until then, I'd just leave it as an unknown. It always amazes me how accepting a dogma or tenet without experiencing it personally almost always hinders any further investigation of it. So by blindly accepting a teaching actually stops you from realizing it. Jesus said; seek and you shall find.

The tendency to exclude…  I think that has more to do with the nature of what is being shared. The Church is open for all, but it does have a specific agenda; that of promoting Jesus. It's like your football team. If you want to play rugby, go to the rugby team, not to the football camp. We become a Buddhist monk in order to follow the Buddha, etc.

If we want to stay a free agent, no need to blame the other teams for not wanting you.

Join the army and swear allegiance to the Queen. Now we need our discrimination big time.

Re: Jesus...man or god...

If we want to stay a free agent, no need to blame the other teams for not wanting you.

Hmmm…you are correct in that blaming the other team is counterproductive (and I would add that it may have the same deleterious effect as adhering to a specific team's agenda)

However, why would they NOT want me?

The Christ message is totally inclusive and beyond forms, historical personalities, agendas, teams, etc, etc. We may not be ready for an interpretation emphasizing that level of freedom, but nevertheless, I believe we are heading in that direction.

So for now, I suppose we will continue to render unto Ceasar (judge and discriminate), in quiet assurance that soon it will no longer be necessary (I think it crucial that we keep faith in that assurance).

Besides, I would never be a member of any “team” that would have me, anyway.
So there! Nyah!

Peace Angels,
mike S

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Mike! LOL, I hear those echoes of Groucho!

chuckling

It doesn't look like you and Bjorn are going to get anywhere close to agreeing but I admire the way you keep trying to clarify your positions.

Love and light to you both,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

I bet you're a team player in your family Mike.

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Hi Bjorn,


Seeing is believing. Investigation, or seeking, is really just interesting if we find. So we seek, investigate, in order to come upon an answer, to find. And of course it is possible to find a correct answer, an objective truth. If it weren't we all would be doomed to endless samsara and ignorance. That's why there are teachers, gurus, saviours, friends to help us, to guide us, to point the way. There are truths that are real and objective for all to see. That's why he said: Let those who have ears hear…

So many voices clamouring, follow me, I have the answer, no wonder we have trouble hearing the still small voice of God in all the racket… Thank you, brother, for your faithfulness, for the steadiness of your vision. Yes, there are truths that are real and objective, yet we will always be limited and flawed in our perception of them.

love and light,

nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

What I found so liberating is not needing to interpret my experience. Deep spiritual revelation has been so impersonal and objective that I never needed to add my own version of them. I just pass on the information given.

As we sit here and read and write these blogs our experience fundamentally is the same. There is absolutely no need to add our own views about it. But if we choose to do, we know as well that it is strictly our point of view. Not limited, not an opinion, but simply our expression of something uniform and universal.

Revelation is by definition not muddled. Clear insight is just that; clear. The Absolute has no flaws. There are no chips in the armor.

The beauty of Truth is that it is a living thing, for all to see. It is never diminished if realized correctly. There is no interpretation of truth. It is what it is. Clearly and unequivocally so. But if we speak about it, as a philosophical abstraction, yes then our own perception will be flawed and limited.

Keep it real

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Dear Bjorn,

There is no unfiltered reality that we can know. The revelation as we receive it is already filtered through our perception and understanding and we further filter it as we pass it on. But that's ok. It's part of being human.

Love

Nicole

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Reality right now is unfiltered.
This is what all Saints points to.

There is an appreciation of things as they are, where we do not laden it with our subsequent labels.

Or are we just speaking past each-other?

With love,

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Dear one,

I think we are speaking past each other. Probably were we to talk directly in another medium we would understand that we are saying the same thing but in different contexts,

love and light,

nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

I had to write a paper about this in school last semester so I'm just going to post that. I hope that is ok.

One would think it to be impossible to be both human and God; your mind cannot grasp that concept. Jesus is full of surprises though. He had human characteristics just like you, but also had divine attributes that only God could have. Jesus was there in the beginning when the world was created, was born of a virgin, was tempted, was tired, was angry, and was perfect.[1] He took on the bodily form of a man, but Jesus was still divine.

Jesus was there before the beginning of time. He helped create the world. In the Bible it says that the Lord God made earth.[2] The Hebrew word for Lord is Yahweh, which is a personal name for God. All through out the New Testament people called Jesus “Lord”.

Jesus set aside his glory, omnipotence, and omnipresence in order to come to earth. We needed a savior, and Jesus became ours. He was conceived by Mary, who was impregnated by the Holy Spirit. Mary had never been with a man, and was still a virgin when Christ was born. Tracing Mary's genealogy shows that Jesus is every bit a human. Being born by the Holy Spirit also shows that He is still God, since the Holy Spirit is also God.

Jesus was tempted three times. He went into the desert, after being led there by the Holy Spirit, and fasted for forty days.[3] It was at the end of His fasting that the Devil came and tempted him. Satan called Jesus the Son of God. He did not even doubt that Jesus was divine. It was of God that Jesus was tempted just like we are tempted. It shows that Jesus past the test, and is now able to help us past our own temptations. Jesus overcame the Devil and his lies and did not sin.

Jesus also became tired.[4] In the Bible it gives an account when Jesus was on a boat. He had been working all day, and had asked the disciples to cross over to the other side of the lake in their boat. Jesus fell asleep on a cushion while they were moving across the lake. During His nap, a huge storm came and rocked the boat violently. The disciples woke Jesus up, and He rebuked the waves and storm. Even creation obeyed Jesus. Jesus was trying to increase the disciples' faith in His deity, through this miracle and every other miracle that He performed.

Jesus became angry, but it was a righteous anger. Jesus made a whip, and drove the people out of the temple.[5] He overturned benches and scattered the coins on the ground, and said that they had made the temple into a den of robbers. The temple was made for praying, but the people use it for their own sinful purposes.

Jesus was perfect. He never sinned, even though He was human. God needed the perfect sacrifice in order to save us from our sins, and Jesus became that perfect sacrifice. If He provided purification from our sins,[6] He has to be God. Jesus set an example for all of us on how we should live our lives. We have all sinned before, but that does not mean we need to continue to sin. Jesus also had perfect love. He never condemned anybody. In fact Jesus said before that He came to save and not to condemn the world.[7]

[1] Demarest, Bruce A. Who is Jesus?, (Wheaton: SP Publications, Inc, 1984), pp.43.

[2] Genesis 2:4, NIV. The Bible.

[3] Matthew 4:1-11, NIV. The Bible.

[4] Matthew 8:24, NIV. The Bible.

[5] John 2:15, NIV. The Bible.

[6] Hebrew 1:3, NIV. The Bible.

[7] John 3:17, NIV. The Bible.

[8] Philippians 2:6-11, NIV. The Bible.


 hope that was helpful. And I included the footnotes so that you knew where I got ideas and everything.

Re: Jesus...man or god...

thanks for taking the time to share this, elimgirl -

love and blessings to you,

nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Well, the Bible says that Jesus was the Son of God, send in spiritual form to become flesh.  This had to be done because of original sin, that is the disobedience of Adam and Eve, God original flesh people.  (Really it doesn't matter what the forbidden fruit was, it was the fact that both disobeyed.)

If Jesus were not both, then there would be no link between us and God, no forgiveness of sin, and people would still be killing bulls and draining their blood for the atonement. (To get right with God again).

Jesus had to die so that he could overcome the power of death to hold us all in its grip….just think about it; if Jesus hadn't died and returned to show himself risen from the dead, there would be no hope of heaven for anyone, we would all be in a much worse state than we already are….

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Thanks, Frances. It's good to continue the discussion.

I hear what you're saying, and it is good Christian doctrine, but it made me think of something. For many years now, the Jews have not accepted Jesus as their Messiah but since the destruction of the Temple have no more sacrifices.

It is so hard from our perspective, don't you think, the whole concept of animal sacrifices atoning for sin?

Peace and light,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

And it is fascinating to see how people and cultures have advocated human or animal sacrifice to atone for failures and sin for thousands of years. It seems to part of our phsyche to feel a need to repent and atone. This need to wash off, to cleanse, to purify, what in our mind is defiled and impure. Is this pointing to an existensial psycological bar to a full life? Is this what Original Sin is trying to convey? This lack, this missing, this seeking and desireing, wanting a better life, a more realized life?

This need to amend our wrongdoings. This feeling of remorse, and a keen sense of shame. This inherent call for something more pure, something more beautiful and loving. Why do we all feel relieved when people admit their wrong doings?

This psycological drama is confronted head on when Jesus appears on the scene. He knows something radical has to be done in order to break this viscious cycle that got the world left helpless in their own devices. Nothing is never enough to break the spell.

We need outside help. And Jesus saw that. He breaks the spell of eons of sacrifice, he takes away the need to sacrifice another animal, another first born.

It's a drama that has been played out in all cultures, through all time. There are plenty of remedies that deals with this human dilemma. Jesus is one that has a good track record. Good medicine for the sick.

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Yes, I beleive it is hard, especially when we don't beleive in sin, or the need for sacrifice.  If you look at the historic side of it all, the Jews were scattered across the earth and didn't have a homeland for a long time.  Hence the sacrifices were stopped.  But what about the rules? The rules have allowed each man to become their own savior, so why do they need Jesus to come back and save them?  All they have to do is to follow the rules….

What ever happened to the need to connect to something greater than ourselves, to trust that our wants and desires did not override everything else in life?  Who is to say that our power to believe should be constrained by guidelines set down by someone who is flesh and blood and bone like the rest of us?

After all, the Bible is more than just a historical book; that is, if we let it be….it is a guideline to our past and future and present all in one volume.  And if you choose to believe that Jesus isn't real, or that he is is between you and Him….

Thanks for allowing me to speak what I know to be is truth, even though your truth may not be the same one I hold.

frances

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I think Jesus was a man…a remarkable man, but a man nonetheless.

I adore Jesus, but I'm not a Christian. In fact, I'm a Pagan Witch. I respect Jesus for the man that he was, not for being the 'son of God'.
And speaking of that, are we not all the sons and daughters of one God or another???
One thing I do know for sure, is that we're all the sons and daughters of Mother Earth.

I believe that Jesus's teachings are the real commandments. His miracles? Moralistic Illusions, created to prove a point.

Take for instance, his turning water into wine.
The moral of this story, boys and girls, is to be grateful with what you have, because some don't even have that!

I think Jesus sparked up a new religion because he saw that his fellow man needed something, some hope, something to believe in.

And while we're on the topic of Jesus, here's one thing I don't understand.
So-called Christians are all against Jews…Jesus was BORN a Jew! And aren't his teaching all about loving your fellow humans.
I don't mean to cause offence by this to any Christians that may be on this site, it's just my oppinions.

Maggs

BB xXx

Re: Jesus...man or god...

maggs and frances, i do thank you for sharing honestly and openly.

frances, it's true that the Jews are dispersed making sacrifices impossible. however, i don't see them as all having become individualists. if you look at devout Jews, like other devout followers of God they are very committed to living for God, in the way they understand that to be done best.

and there are many ways of understanding the Bible, within and without faith perspectives. some understand it from a literalist perspective, some from a historical-critical perspective. of course, it's more challenging to see as valid the way someone of faith from another perspective than our own looks at the Bible. but we all have much to learn from each other.

maggs, that is indeed one lesson that can be drawn from the turning of water into wine. the glory of the Bible and other deep and meaningful writings is that there are many, many possible lessons from each story, parable, saying… these are rich sourches of wisdom.

and i agree with you whole-heartedly, it's sad when Christians fail to honour the Jewishness of Jesus and the essential message of the gospel by hardening our hearts against any human being, for every one is loved by God, as deeply as you or I…

light and peace,

nicole

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I don't think that all Christians are against Jews. I think it might be better to word that as saying “Some”. I believe it would be wrong for someone to be against anyone at all… I mean let alone a Christian. It would go against everything that we as Christians stand for.
I know that I'm not against them.. nor is my family.

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you're right, I know of many Christians who embrace Jews and what we learn from Judaism. blanket statements are often limited in this way.

love,

nicole

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I do have a question though. If people who aren't Christians respect Jesus highly as a man but don't think that He is God or the son of God.. w/e.. wouldn't that mean that Jesus was a liar? Going with that, wouldn't that mean that anything that Jesus had to say was a complete false hood. So why then would people “adore” him or appreciate anything that he would have to say.Wouldn't it just be a lie?

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Lauren, not everyone believes that everything that is said in the Bible to have been said by Jesus is true. so, if you don't believe that he presented himself as the Son of God, then he's not a liar.

Love,

Nicole

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That's exactly my point Nicole. If you don't believe everything in the Bible that Jesus said to be true, why trust anything in it at all? Or Jesus at all? Why does a person get to pick and choose what is true and what is not true?

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Hi Lauren,

In fact, we all pick and choose what to embrace and follow. Even the most devout Christians reject many of the things that are found in the Old Testament, which is a large part of the revelation, right? Also, they reject some of the teachings of the New Testament. It is unavoidable, as it was written at a time and in a culture that was very different from ours, having standards and priorities alien to ours.

For example, how many Christian women do you know who cover their hair or never cut it? How many would never marry again after a divorce because they do not want to commit adultery, as Jesus said remarriage (in any case but for adultery) was to create adultery?

So, believers make choices - how much more should those who do not see it as inspired Word but as a document based on some truth but probably deliberately shaped for its purposes from accurate facts by the community of faith in which it emerged and became canon?

Peace,

Nicole

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I don't understand what you mean by saying that if people don't believe something is true and then saying that Jesus is a liar.  It doesn't make too much sense to me. 

It is like you saying that you are a female, and me saying that I don't believe you.  Does that make you a liar? 

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hehe I meant pick and choose out of the Bible what is true or not ^_^

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I'm not a bible scholar or anything, but I do happen to believe that Jesus believed he was the son of God, but also believed that we are all children of God.  He said that all the things he could do, we could also do, and better. 

I believe that Jesus was a man who became Awakened (Christed).   And apparently, he believed that anyone could become that way if only they could change their thinking about it (be born again). 

I don't believe that Jesus was God incarnated in man.  He stated over and over that God was within us; I believe that Jesus was man becoming more Godlike :) 

Just my thoughts :)

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Jesus the man and Jesus the son of God can be verified in your own experience. No need to rely on your own assumptions, or anyone else's. If you sincerely seek Him you will find revelation in your own heart as to what the passages in the Bible refer to. If you choose prematurely to decide what the meaning is based on your own ideas you'll close the door to discovery. Better to hold no opinion, and wait for, seek for, revelation. Follow Jesus' own teaching; seek and you will find.

Ask and it will be given

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Thanks, Deanna, Bjorn, we do have many perspectives here, don't we?

Love,

Nicole

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Deanna– Yes, we are all God's children.. but we are all adoptive children. Jesus is the “true child” of God. Because of Jesus we were all given the choice to be adopted into God's family, we just now have to accept it. Not everyone does.

Jesus said that He was God. ”John 20:31
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” In John it says that Jesus was there in the very beginning of time. John 1:1” In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ”
1 John 4:9
This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him.

I don't think that we can go beyond all that Jesus did..because Jesus did it all at the cross. But I think that Jesus did give us His Spirit in order to do great and extraordinary things- supernatural things. (i.e miracles, healings, prophecies)

I think that we can all become born again, and change our old ways for new ways. But to be exactly like Jesus is impossible. We could never become sinless, perfect humans.. otherwise we'd be God ourselves.. hence why Jesus was God ;)

Jesus stated that God was WITH us.. was in our hearts.. but how was Jesus becoming MORE like God? In what way was He lesser? Examples in the Bible showed He never did a single thing wrong, said a single thing wrong, acted out of character..

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I guess I don' t see how we are adopted children when we are FROM God.  We are created by God.  We came from the womb of God.   To me, that means we are biological offspring :)

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Sorry for the late reply to some of your guy's points….

Nicole - I'm curious…do you believe that the Bible is inerrant? 

Deanna - I was wondering where in the Bible did Jesus say that all of the things He could do we could do and in fact we could do better and that we were all children of God?

Frances - I'm not sure that the Bible says the same thing as you do about animal sacrifices.  The sacrifice of animals was just part of the Mosaic law that was handed down from God to Moses.  The Old Testament saints were not saved because of animal sacrifices.  The shedding of an animals blood did not atone for any sins.  I think the Bible talks about how the Old Testament saints were basically saved the same way we are.  Belief in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus.  A good example is in Romans 4 when Paul talks of justification not being of works but of faith.  Verse 3 says, “For what does the Scripture say?  'Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.'”  I think the previous chapter further explains how God redeemed the Old Testament saints. 

Romans 3:23-26:  for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.  This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.  It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

So, what I think Paul is saying here is that God “passed over former sins.”  Which means that the people before Jesus had died still were saved though Jesus had not died for them yet.  So for God to be just he sent Jesus as the “propitiation” or that Jesus bore the wrath of God for us.  So Abraham and Moses and everyone before Jesus had died had put their faith in God that he would some day atone for their sins in the work of Jesus Christ.  I think this is further explained a bit in Hebrews 11. 

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Hi Chase,

To answer part of your question of Deanna (I leave it to her to answer the other part :) ), here is the quote from John's gospel:

< John 14:12 >>

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Bjorn - When you say, “Jesus the man and Jesus the son of God can be verified in your own experience.”  Does this mean that Jesus is going to be different to different people?  So if one person thinks that Jesus was the Messiah and that Jesus was not the Messiah are both of these people right?

Nicole - One more thing sorry.  You said way back, “Over the years, I realise more and more how limited that can be to those who are not resonant with the Christian perspective.”  I was just curious how is this argument limited?

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Hello, this my frist time replying to a post. This discussion is very interesting. I personally have looked into this question myself on this life's journey.

I was brought up being taught that Jesus was a man and our savior..than as an adult I was taught further that he was God. As a child, I knew of other cultures believing in more than one God. It was very confusing to understand how a man( a son of God, kinda like Herucules)became God himself. I personally asked for guidaince in discovering the truth as I believe it.
In the very frist chapter of Hebrews, {just a side note: there are authorative debates on who actually wrote this book, some seminaries have brought up the question was Jesus actually Micheal and was Hebrews written by Him, yet this information doesnot save souls so it is not a topic most pastors touch}it states that God has appointed the Son as heir to all things AND through whom He made the universe. Now how can the Man, Jesus, be the link to the creation of the universe if he was not already there? But was man made before the Heavens, no,  we were not, not in this pyhscial sense.
Someone in the this discussion mention animal sacurfices. In my studies, I have come to understand that these acts were not to save someone but to cleanse those who spoke directly to God. Before Jesus' regular people could not directly ask God to forgive them. They had to go through the proper authorities. So they would take an animal to the priests, the priests would than sacurface it, and cleanse himself w/ this blood. Just in case noone knew, Only the High Priest could face God, so the lower priests{about two} would tie a rope around the foot of that priest, just in case he was not cleansed enough for the presence of God. Which of course means that if this Priest killed over from the Glory of God they would have to pull him back out, bury him and start all over. Also, the shedding of sacufical blood was done to make some issues concrete, more or less, a completed contract. Someone's word was not good enough.
I only bring this up because in the second chapter verse six is states that is was testified:
    “What is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him?
     You made him a little lower than angels; you crowned him with glory and honor
      and put everything under his feet.”
It goes on to say that Jesus was made lower than angels, now crowned with glory and honor BECAUSE he suffered death. Back in chapter one it states that God said about the Son, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter
             of your kingdom.
           You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has
             has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
Now, besides for our healing and our sins, why would Jesus shed his blood? To become God? No, I do not believe so, I believe his blood concreted a contract for the Human race to survive to the ages that may come, for we all are the Creator's creation, too. I believe the Creator's right hand Angel, Micheal, was chosen for this Honorable quest to insure that all of creation would survive. Does this mean that Micheal-Jesus is God? Well, in my book, if someone sacurficed such as that, then, YES, He has earned the honor of that position.
Jesus is my Heavenly Father and my eternial brother. May he be glorfied!
Thank you for letting me share my belief. May we all be blessed, Sincerely, Ginlei

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Thanks, Ginlei, indeed, may we all be blessed! Amen,

Love and light,

Nicole

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Hi Chase,

You ask a lot of really good questions. The two you asked of me were first if I believe the Bible is inerrant. No, I don't. I believe it's inspired, but I have studied it for many years, and to my understanding there are many aspects of it that cannot be harmonised with other parts of it, as well as things written from a limited historical/cultural perspective that we know now are simply wrong. But that's ok, it is still a rich source of wisdom.

Your other question was about the Liar, lunatic or Lord perspective - sorry I haven't been clear  as I have been trying to explain why it doesn't work for non-Christians. IMO, it relies on a presupposition that one believes that Jesus made the claims about himself that he did. If he didn't, he doesn't have to be liar, lunatic or Lord.

I have tried to explain that there are many, many ways of understanding and appreciating the Bible. Some do it purely from the point of view of literature - great stories and myths (not lies but stories than are definitive for all time, archetypes) that bring us wisdom and insight.

Some take a historical/critical approach, which over the years has been refined from the basic JEPD hypothesis of authorship of the Pentateuch through canonical criticism and many other forms of scholarship, and I would wish to underline that many of these scholars are people of deep faith like Bishop NT Wright. Scholarship does not simply equate with rejection of the kerygma, of the message of the Word.

I'm sure there are others here who, if they wished, could add other reasons why one doesn't have to lock into one of those three or else totally reject everything Jesus said and did. It's important not to oversimplify, especially when we are dealing with the deepest and most intuitive realities.

Light and peace,

Nicole

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Hi Chase,

I mean that anyone that seeks, asks and knocks, can and will find the truth about Jesus; that he is the Messiah, the son of God, and the risen one. This will be the case because truth is one, not two. Divine insight, revelation, faith, deep learning, study and inquiry leads to greater maturity and deeper wisdom.

We might find Jesus at different levels of understanding, but as we deepen our knowledge, more and more mysteries will be revealed.

This is equally true about any endeavor. Seek to understand what the Buddha spoke about and you'll find it (if you stick with it).

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Kendra, what a great post….I like it.

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Deanna: I’m not too sure what you are saying about us coming from God’s womb. I don’t think that God physically gives birth to us. In Psalms David talks of how God formed him in his mother’s womb but I don’t think we come from God physically or spiritually for that matter. In Romans Adam’s sinful nature is imputed to us at birth. Any time adoption is mentioned in the Bible it is mentioned after someone has placed their faith and trust in Jesus that he is Savior and Lord.

Bjorn: I can see that religion probably plays a big part in your life and I feel that it really commendable. But it seems like religion is just a bunch of hard work. As long as we seek we gain more knowledge. Is there an end to our seeking? Is there salvation as long as we keep going?

Nicole: So you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God but that it contains errors. My question to you now is, is God not prefect then? And what about verses like 2 Tim. 3:16, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness…” How can the scriptures be useful to us if they are not all accurate or relevant to our time? How can we really believe anything that the Bible tells us as truth?

Well, I think the gospels are either true or false. If the gospels are true than the liar, lunatic, Lord argument is not valid. But it seems to me that there is plenty of evidence (manuscript, non-biblical evidence) that Jesus was a real person and that he did say the things he said.

It seems that from what you are saying (please correct me if I’m wrong) that the Bible is really just up to people’s interpretation. I may take the Bible to be literal but you may take the Bible to be something totally different.

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Hi Chase,

Nicole: So you believe the Bible is the inspired word of God but that it contains errors. My question to you now is, is God not prefect then?

Sure, God is perfect. But we are not, nor are our writings.

 And what about verses like 2 Tim. 3:16, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness…”

First of all, 2 Timothy is only referring to what we now call the Old Testament, since the New Testament was mostly unwritten at the time, and certainly far from being canonised. So, all those problematic Old Testament doctrines and teachings that Christians have rejected are what is being discussed here.

So, all believers of Christian and Jewish traditions have to wrestle with this - in what sense is this Psalm that talks about dashing the brains out of the enemies' babies God-breathed? Or what are we meant to learn from the stories about rape , annihilation of towns, God being tired of humanity, etc?

How can the scriptures be useful to us if they are not all accurate or relevant to our time? How can we really believe anything that the Bible tells us as truth?

The Scriptures are most useful if we understand what they really are in their context and don't do too much eisegesis or bibliolatry. But that is just my opinion. I understand you see things differently, and that's ok.

Well, I think the gospels are either true or false. If the gospels are true than the liar, lunatic, Lord argument is not valid. But it seems to me that there is plenty of evidence (manuscript, non-biblical evidence) that Jesus was a real person and that he did say the things he said.

I happen to believe Jesus was real and that he said what the Bible says he said. So we agree there.

It seems that from what you are saying (please correct me if I’m wrong) that the Bible is really just up to people’s interpretation. I may take the Bible to be literal but you may take the Bible to be something totally different

In fact, whether you will or no, the Bible really is up to the way each of us interpret it. If there were only one way of understanding it in faith, then we wouldn't have hundreds of different sects, within which there are many disagreements, would we? However deeply we revere it as Word of God, we will always view it subjectively, through translations that are themselves interpretations.

Light and peace,

Nicole

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Hi Nicole.. at the end you said that “In fact, whether you will or no, the Bible really is up to the way each of us interpret it. If there were only one way of understanding it in faith, then we wouldn't have hundreds of different sects, within which there are many disagreements, would we? However deeply we revere it as Word of God, we will always view it subjectively, through translations that are themselves interpretations.”

I don't believe that the Bible is up to how WE interpret it. I think there is really only ONE way to interpret it- God's way. The true way. Back then there weren't hundreds of different sects. People think they have all the right answers, that they're the one's that are right. Guess what! We're not right! We can never be 100% right. If we are, then we are further from the truth then we thought we were. To ever get a true translation of God's word we would have to be fluent in Arabic, Hebrew, and Greek. I think too many people try and fit God in their own little box of what they think God should be like. God doesn't fit in a box. God said that there is only one truth, one way. People take that truth.. that one way and take it a part and fit in into their lifestyle so it fits them. So there a now hundreds of differents sects. There are now million “truths” running around trying to lure people in. But it's all empty and false.

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Hi Lauren,

Even those who are fluent in Hebrew and Greek and sincerely desire to understand and follow God's way alone will come to different ways of understanding the Bible. Yet though “all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”, and so we all will not be able to see 100% from the perspective of God, God loves us and accepts us. That gives me great hope and joy. We can learn from each other, we can open our hearts to know more deeply what the Spirit teaches us.

Light and peace,

Nicole

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God loves us enough though to not let us get away with our sinful selves though… I don't think He's the type to just sit back and let us go on doing the wrong thing. I think He's more for change then “acceptance”.

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I have always enjoyed reading Darren's scriptural interpretations

Paul doesn't deny that he heard the story from others, just as you and I have. My mother taught me the story of Jesus Christ as secular history. She died believing that one little individual lived and died two thousand years ago. That's how she was taught by her mother. Throughout the ages men have heard the story told in that manner.

And the 'story' of Christ can be identified in every culture and on every continent. All had their savior 'god,'  (Mithras, Dionysos, Attis, Isis, Osiris). Christ is the messianic archetype or redeemer archetype that exists within the preconscious of all sentient beings. We live and structure the chief components of our life by myth. The Christ idea can be considered as the highest idea or myth we wish to manifest in our lives. Therefore, we seek to manifest it in our minds and actions.

Paul discovered through revelation that Jesus Christ is a plan which is contained in man. The plan is not outside of you, but within; and when it unfolds it is man, for you are man.

The plan of salvation is archetypal 'within' all minds. This primordial salvation archetype is universal and recurrent throughout every culture, in every century and can be observed throughout recorded history and long before the scribing of the bible. “Sin” is nothing more than a failure to correspond with the universal meaning as contained through the archetype of salvation. However, that will be interpreted differently by every separate mind that considers the meaning and applies that meaning to their lives.

The question is not be why does this archetype exist, since Jung and those who followed have clearly made the case for its existence in all minds. But from where does it originate?

However, I can imagine how those who ascribe to the logic of “the bible says it so…” may fail to identify this archetypal strand which runs through all religions and can be seen in all religious texts.

This idea of archetypes was discussed on a previous thread that Nicole started back in February for those interested:   http://pods.gaia.com/is_there_a_god/discussions/view/242693

Peace Angels,
mike S

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Hi Chase,

Receiving salvation, coming to Christ, can happen at any point in your walk, but that never need to stop you investigation further. Rather, most likely it will increase your curiosity to really dig your teeth into the mysteries of the Bible. We live and learn.

Salvation is the beginning of new life. Don't you want to explore it? I'm sure you do. Far from being hard work, it is a joy. Actually, there is a need to proceed exploring. If you don't you will fail to grow in Christ.

If you're afraid to question the Bible you don't have the confidence that it contains the truth. If you're confident that it is real, you will not hesitate to explore and examine its content. Truth will always prevail. Rather than limit yourself to a fixed literal interpretation or a blind acceptance of it (which induces a false sense of righteousness) you want to experience the mysteries first hand. So the biblical stories comes alive in your own experience.

Bless,

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Bjorn, what an exciting adventure it is!

Mike, thanks for linking the other discussion and putting it all in context of world religions.

Darren, that was a beautiful wander through the ages with you.

Lauren, indeed God calls us to leave the shallows and swim in the depths of our true selves, in the light of Christ. It is a lifelong journey and a thrilling one.

Gratefully,

light and peace to all,

Nicole

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So, if this is posted twice I apologize for some reason I couldn't see my post the first time I tried to post it…

Nicole:  First of all I must say thank you for responding to all of my questions.  You have been very gracious in trying to help me learn more (even though I may or may not agree or disagree).  Also, I just want to admit that you are my intellectual superior and again because of this I am thankful for your responses.

You said, “God is perfect.  But we are not, nor are our writings.”  I can agree with that in a sense.  God is always perfect.  We are never perfect.  But logically I just wouldn’t think that God’s own inspired word to us, even though it is through human authors would contain any errors.  Law God gave to Moses was basically a reflection of God’s character.  I wouldn’t think that God would allow his character to be altered by human error in anyway.  I’m not sure what examples you are talking of but all that I can say is that any time that the Lord told Israel to wipe out any nations is because of sin.  God was judging those people.  He is the righteous judge.  Now, people may think that God was to harsh by wiping out all of humanity by sending a world wide flood and only saving Noah.  But something that is hard for us to remember sometimes is that our sin makes us infinitely apart from God.  Paul tells us in Romans, “no one is righteous, no not one” and “the wages of sin is death.”  But it’s not like God was playing favorites or anything.  He passed down judgment on his own people as well.  So, if you have any specific examples I wouldn’t mind trying (key word trying) to explain what we could learn from those texts. 

You said, “The Scriptures are most useful if we understand what they really are in their context and don't do too much eisegesis or bibliolatry.”  My only question, what the heck does bibliolatry mean?

I must say I’m glad that you and I agree that Jesus was real and that what he said in the Bible was real. 

True there are many many different sects in this world.  But that’s just what they are different sects.  Though there are hundreds of denominations in this country alone I would say most of us still agree on the core belief of Christianity, the gospel.  We may differ on the little things such as mode of baptism or communion, but as long as the denomination believes we are saved by grace alone by faith alone in Christ alone to the glory of God alone we basically agree. 

“However deeply we revere it as Word of God, we will always view it subjectively, through translations that are themselves interpretations.”  I think this sentence is self-contradictory.  You are telling me (objectively) that interpretation of basically anything we read is subjective.  My question to you then is, if someone interprets the Bible and says to himself, “hey the Bible is against abortion so I’m going to shoot the next abortion doctor I see” how can we hold him accountable. Minus any societal laws or norms if we were just strictly talking about the Bible here we would have no basis to judge him because that was just his faithful interpretation of the Bible. 

Bjorn: 

First of all thank you for answering my questions.  You and Nicole have been very gracious to me in trying to help me learn.  I can’t tell you how much I appreciate it. 

I agree with you 100% salvation is the beginning of life and that we get immeasurable joy from it.  My question though now is can we gain this type of joy from the Buddha?  I think you had mentioned earlier that if we seek what the Buddha says we will find it.  Are you saying we will find his type of enlightenment as well?  

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Hi Chase,

Still can't see your post - it's strange! I've seen this issue before but am not sure why it happens. You might want to look into it with the devs at http://pods.gaia.com/gaia_support

It must be frustrating…

Edit - I flagged the problem at the support pod. Let's see what they say.

Light,

Nicole

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just for fun i think i will throw into the mix here what the bible actually says and how hardly anyone in the christian tradition believes what it says; or at least they never talk about it…

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Hi Andrew,

Yes, even when the believers were in the handfuls, there were those who followed Paul, or Apollos, or… http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/3-4.htm

 it's in our nature to splinter, it would seem.

Those are good examples, but just examples. There are many more. I hope we can just accept that it's not as simple as who believes the Bible and who doesn't. Understanding and interpreting it and meditating on it is a lifelong endeavour with more and more questions arising as we delve into its richness.

Love and light,

Nicole

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Hi Andrew, I love to speak about these passages.
The flood is a beautiful description of how to survive the flood of ignorance that drowns the world. Build a vessel to ride on top of the waves, be truthful, and you'll find dry land.

I'd love to hear Darren expound on it.

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First, I want to thank our resident Magician ~Matthew for fixing the code that made it impossible for us to see your post, Chase.

When I asked, “do you know why this happens?”

He answered, “Yes, it happens when a post contains formatting or html code that interferes with the usual way of displaying text.  It particularly happens when text is copied/pasted from MS word documents. 

“BTW, I removed the problem code from that posting you mentioned above :)”

Now, to answer your post, Chase.

Your intellectual superior? Tush, comparisons are not helpful. We all have different strengths and weaknesses. I may know more than you in some areas, you no doubt know a lot I don't know, and in the end, it doesn't matter a bit. We are all one.

1) Inspiration - yes, there are different theories of what that means. The dictation method, that the Bible was inspired as a sort of word for word dictation from God to people. Were this correct, IMO, there wouldn't be all the differences in style etc we see that seem to shore up the JEPD theory (Wellhausen) of sources here for one overview

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html

(one list of apparent inconsistencies - read the caveat before, the person who put it together understands well that most or all can or have been explained differently by those who believe in word by word inspiration, it's just to give you an overview of why many believe the Bible is  full of inconsistency and error)

2) Bibliolatry - worshipping the Bible. Only God is God, no other.

3) Most of us agree on the core - I believe that, but then again, I seem to differ from many fundamentalists I know on what that core that we agree on is. For example, in the Anglican church of which I am a part,  part of the core for the fundamentalists seems to be that it is very important that same sex blessings are agreed to be bad and wrong. So many bishops stayed away from the recent Lambeth conference of bishops in protest. I find that very sad.

“Saved by grace alone by faith alone…” Each of these concepts can be understood in many ways. So if we all agree, are we all agreeing to the same?

4) Accountability and interpretation - people say things all the time, some of them are even true to their understanding. People may justify their acts of violence by claiming God told them or that they understood that from the Bible, and may be sincerely believing the truth of it. In fact, they have done, throughout history, so contributing to religion being a byword to many, a sign of fanaticism and hysteria to be avoided at all costs. This too is very sad to me. As the saying goes, “The road to hell is paving with good intentions.”

However, what people say or believe has nothing to do with their accountability for their actions. If people are insane, we can consider them too adrift from reality to be accountable. However, if people are sane, however mistaken they may be in their interpretations of Scripture or any teaching, they are still accountable for their wrongdoing, to God, to society, to themselves.

Blessings, light and peace,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Re: Jesus...man or god...

crap, I forgot about that code thing…

Re: Jesus...man or god...

This truely an awesome pod, thank you nicole for beginning it. I woulld like to thank you for quoting “the Road to hell is paved w/ good intentions” because we all have good intentions in hopefully everything we do. Which, I do believe, Darren has expressed about Paul and his discovery of who he was. Yes, I do believe there is an end to our seeking of salvation. For me, Salvation means survivual. My Salvation came when I seeked out the truth. Truth is about survivaul of the fitist. Can anyone hang? Yes, if their truth begins w/ themselves. How many people actually like looking at themselves for the truth?

Andrew, thank you for your opinion as a literalist, as a literalist myself, I have come to understand that noone speaks of the cleansing of the earth because if it happened once couldn't it happen again? Is the predictions of 2012 an expected cleansing?
As for Melchercidek, High Priest of Salem, why would he be mentioned if he isn't important and has an a role to play in our future? Will he appear out of no where again in 2012 or has he already been here again?

Darren, Thank you for interpurttion of truth, I couldn't of put it in better words. May I quote you about the “hollowed eye”? Also, I'd like to know, does being a sleeper mean the same as being a dreamer? As for the Elohim, I know the spelling to a little different than what the books say and I misspelled it in one other post. The spelling I know is Elyohim. Is this correct? I can only wait for Melchercidek.
I'd also like to say I like how you said,”Do Not think that once you have experienced scripture you are not in anyway set free from the horrors of the world, for we are not.” Well put!
For I have too experienced scripture. As it says, I was drunk w/ knowledge, I was a beleiver of little faith. I became a faithful believer when I tasted the blood and heard the screams of the past and future. An awaking experience! As the  world knows we are at the end of the horrors of the earth and the peace that Jesus and our heavenly father promised is on the horizon. That is why we are in the enlightment time of this existence.
To the question of seeking the knowledge of Budda, well isn't Budda Jesus's brother in arms of the salvation of the Earth? To understand any type of multi-factitied gem we must all, literally throw off our old self, become almost selfish to find the essence of truth and Andrew that is where leaving our families and loved comes in.
I'd also like to say, I was very angery with the knowledge that I was an experiment. I was furious that the bible had been peiced together by human priest's that were under the direction of a queen who wanted her kingdom under her thumb. But I am greatful, that out off all the relgions back then and now, that the truth has still seeped out in the mist of it.
May we all blessed in this experiment of existence. Be at peace w/ the ride of your life. May the Ark have room for us all.
Ginlei

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Hello, I couldnot read my hand righting and misspelled Melchezidek, sorry, but i forgot to add that if this High Priest was not important, does that mean that Micheal in Daniel is not important either?
Just a question thats been on my mind.
Ginlei

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Hi ginlei,

Of course, both Melchizedek and Daniel are vital…

Love,

Nicole

Re: Jesus...man or god...

Joshua ben Joseph was a holy man in his day.

The myth is coopted from the 15-25 versions of virgin birth/death/resurection that the male dominated foreign salvationist whose root was in zooroaster conquired and dominated the inner council of the Jewish temple.  Then spread throughout the mid east and ancient world.  Conquesting the more natural earth-based mother religions which are in line with balancing the world with human drives - also known as the mystery schools. 

When these things combine and get manipulated through time, you get the modern perpetrator religion of christianity.  Time increases the belief and the dominator/victim mentality which has conquired the world with its selfishness.

The christos