Destiny Predetermination

The question

If destiny or predetermination were true, who or what writes this plan? If it's a person (god) who predetermines the destiny of that one? If a system what predetermines the systems own destiny? Why should only some things be controlled by destiny and others write down destinys path? If we are like robots following a preset lot of commands what programmed us? And when we try to prove we have free will by saying “look its my choice I will sit down now, I will stand up now, I will stand on one leg!”  Why would a predestined program be predestined to attempt to prove to itself that it wasn't?

Possible answer

If we make plans we write a program in our brains, which will later come back to ask for more input. We may even leave reminders outside our self such as documents diaries, calenders. The more input we give this plan the more it becomes our destiny. Others outside of us also give us input. We are all controlled by destiny, and we all write it as we go. But some things become fixed by our actions and laws of physics. Once you are going a certain speed towards the cliff edge, there is no turning back, and destiny becomes fixed.
Who ever wrote the physical laws helped to fix destiny's path.

Any other thoughts on this subject?

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You might like to read the Hindu view about this question… please refer to the blog Fate, Free Will, and the Laws of Karma

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Hi DPI,

I started to look through threads related to this to list but there are too many to number - quite the recurring theme here and everywhere. It would seem very ironic if as you said everything were predetermined and yet we are constantly asserting our free-will.

I thought Eli's blog was excellent. What do you think?

Love,

Nicole

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As German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer said:

“You can choose what you want to do. But you canoot choose what it is you want..”

And here we have the whole playground between Karma and shaping opportunties in creativity.

Interesting that Ken Wilber considered to give his work-in-progress of part 3 of Kosmos Trilogy the title:

Kosmic Karma and Creatity

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That's a very interesting quote, Albert. I'd like to know more about the context in which he said that…

Peace,

Nicole

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Suggest to check this out:

On the Freedom of the Will

On the Freedom of the Will was an essay presented to the Royal Norwegian Society of Sciences in 1839 by Arthur Schopenhauer as a response to the academic question that they had posed: “Is it possible to demonstrate human free will from self-consciousness?” It is one of the constituent essays of his work Die beiden Grundprobleme der Ethik.

Arthur Schopenhauer in general can be rewarding to read. The Wachowsky Brothers -Larry especially- confessed they did read lots of him and were very inspired..

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Very helpful, Albert. Many thanks,

Love,

Nicole

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dailyplanit,

it really depends upon what your definition of predestination is related to, as you have put it, it appears to be something that either states that we will take a certain path that will designate our every action, or that there is someone else in charge of the final sequence of our life.

as far as i am concerned, there is a God, He had a Son who died for us on the cross at Calvary, and the Holy Spirit is an extension of God and His Son that indwells us when we accept Christ as our Lord and Savior.  He does not take over our spirit, nor does He dictate what we do; He gives us guidence if we listen to Him, and allows us to make our own mistakes. 

we are free to choose to or not to accept this assignment and the end reward is living eternally with all of them, and the biggest benefit of this deal is being able to look God the Father in the eyes for the first time ever. 

otherwise, we choose not to believe and we spend eternity living the result of our actions while we are on the earth, because Jesus has the power to either claim or deny He ever knew us, and to blot our names from the book of life.

there are many who will call this Christian rhetoric, but i am not willing to say that is the case.  i only know the truth from what appears to be the truth, and for me this is the truth, the way and the life; no man comes to the father except through Jesus Christ.

i still have the ability to act in any manner that i choose; but i choose differently now that i have a better understanding of what pleases the one in charge of my eternal destiny.

frances

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after 3-5 thousand years of humanity asking this question it seems obvious to me that the question cannot be answered. already this thread is echoing the usual responses. maybe it's time we let this one rest……

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I agree it can't be answered.  When I've looked at the philosophical debate, none of the viewpoints seemed more rational than any of the other viewpoints.  Its not a question of rationality and so its not even a question that can be answered by philosophy.  All that philosophy can do is propose the question.

Anyways, if we were predestined, then that would mean whatever we believe is predestined.  In response, someone might say that they intuitively feel free but of course they'd feel the exact same way whether they were free or fated to feel that way.  In response, someone might say that their life changed in a way that seemed to defy the pattern they were stuck in the past but of course everything would've happened that way also if it had been fated that way.  Fate isn't just about things staying the same way and freewill isn't just about things changing.

As the question can't be answered by rationality, it neither can be answered by personal experience.  We can't answer it at all by any means.  We believe what we believe, and even if we believe we are free to believe what we want its an utterly blind freedom.

We can only speak of freedom in the negative.  We can state the limits of our knowing, but we can't know what we don't know.  Its like discussing the reality of God.  We may have an experience of what we interpret as God, but our interpretations are human.

Marmalade

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“Anyways, if we were predestined, then that would mean whatever we believe is predestined. ”

I believe I am predestined to grow old and die at around say 70 - 90 years old. Or…. be the first human to live forever.

“In response, someone might say that they intuitively feel free but of course they'd feel the exact same way whether they were free or fated to feel that way.”

Who would do that? Who would fate them to feel that way? Would someone sit and calculate exactly how you are supposed to feel?
What choices and freewill would this person HAVE themself while they decide the course of fate for all others and how they should feel? Where would this record of what I should do next be written down, in quantum DNA? I think your wrong saying it cannot be answered I think you HAVE answered the question perfectly… Even the writters of fate would not know if they were fated to write it that way, unless they sat arround for almost eternity doing nothing until they realised that nothing happens unless they cause it to be so.  Fate it to be so. BUT then was god fated to write our fate?

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Fate is real
Predetermination is real.
Things HAVE BEEN predetermined.I predetermine many things in my own life, then do them.
Is every action fated? Is every thought AND feeling predetermined?

Here is how fate is determined. If to believe in fate and it makes you feel warm and happy knowing everything in your life is predetermined then it is true it is.
If it scares the hell out of you that everything in your life is predetermined then it is a lie and don't believe their lies.

Feelings are what predetermine actions. Bad feelings DON'T pretetermine good futures.
So avoid them…………..
Of course if you seek thrills you will believe the lies, and seek out a scary future for you to experience. Thats up to you….. OR IS IT???

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As I said, you are right about that the question can't be answered.  But it seems pointless to recommend letting it rest.  If we had the ability (freewill?) to let it rest, we probably would've have done so by now. 

Its been at least 3-5 thousand years.  I'd say the human race is obsessed with this question because it cuts to the heart of our entire sense of reality.  We can't let it rest.  Your suggestion of letting it rest presumes a specific answer to the question, ie that we are free.  We can't dismiss the question with an answer to the question that can't even be proven.

Marmalade

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I am learning to walk by faith not by sight.  If Destiny were a true end to one's journey, I would not be writing this at the moment.  All that knew me would readily have said that I was destined to die a horrble death from the life I led…..I was destined for failure….destined to be a hopeless, hapless, drug addict.  Free will is a beautiful thing…today I have a choice to change my destiny.  I have not been the person that my friends and family thought I was destined to be for some time now….I'm still kicking, and quite sober minded I might add!  I think we live life by God's grace….how we live it is up to us.  When I was out in the world filling my body with chemicals, surely that wasn't God's destined plan for me….I do belive that his hand of blessing was removed from me, but, his grace was still there.  The point I am trying to make…..The only sure fire destiny that I know of is that God wants me to be with him when I leave this earth….everything from now until that final day is up to me.  I am on a journey with twists and turns, not a straight and narrow predestined path! ;) 

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as I know it the answer is very difficult to put into words.  Here's an admittedly confusing attempt:

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Lord Krishna said:

“na tvevaham jatu  nasam na tvam neme janadhipah
na chaiva na bhavishyamah sarve vayamatah  param”
                                                                         Bhagwad Gita 2:12
(In fact there was never a time when I or you or these kings were non-existent. Nor is it a fact that we shall cease to be in future)

“nasato vidyate bhavo nabhavo vidyate satah
ubhayorapi drsto'ntastvanayostattvadarsibhih”
                                                                        Bhagwad Gita 2:16
(The unreal has no existence and the real never ceases to be; the truth of both has been perceived by the seers of truth.)

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hi ben, i really have no problem with the question, it's the implication of all the usual answers that are irritating. firstly, they all presume that they are right and everyone is  just too dumb to figure the unanswerable question out. secondly, all the answers always come with a crap load of baggage! take hinduism, i've already conceded on this site that the indian mind was religious genius into antiquity, but people like a. koestler correctly pointed out that that tradition is also filled with some of the most superstitious religious nonsense ever written! furthermore, and check in with anyone that has ever been declared an untouchable -what do they think of the concept of reincarnation……and this is in no way personal to eli or any other of my indian friends in the analog world or here…….

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You seem to be voicing my own opinion.  I agree the usual answers can irritate me sometimes.  The problem with questions is that they lead to answers.  lol  Actually, the problem is not that they lead to answers but as you say they lead to one right answer.  I love answers of all kinds but I prefer the kinds that leave the original question open and simultaneously lead to further questions.

Marmalade

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If you believe that, 

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Hi Alan,

Marmalade always impresses me with his ability to hear many things with an openness I have seen in few. I would hesitate to make assumptions on how he (or anyone) would approach something not yet discussed.

Peace,

Nicole

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Nicole - Thanks for responding.  I noticed Alan's comment earlier but I wasn't sure it was directed at me.

Alan - Could I understand an answer if I heard it?  I don't know.  What I do know is that thinking one understands something isn't the same thing as actually understanding.  The world is filled with people who claim they understand all kinds of things. 

And would I understand especially if it required meditation to understand?  Depends what kind of understanding you're talking about.  I don't have a meditation practice at the moment, but I had a practice for years.  Its actually because of my meditative experiences that I'm resistant to believe in any particular answer.  Its not that I don't trust personal experience.  I'm a very rational person, but I trust personal experience before rationality.

I realize that, like everything in life, your experience of meditation may be very different than my own.  If you feel you have discovered a clear answer through meditation, then that is your experience.  That is the point I was trying to make.  Anybody's belief about freewill and determinism is based on their experience.  No matter what rational argument anyone makes, experience is experience.

Marmalade

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Well said, Marmalade!

Perhaps I was wrong that Alan was commenting on your comment. If so, Alan, I'm sorry.

But what a great answer. Meditation does have as one of its benefits helping us to let go of many things, as our dear friend antony (siafu) reminds us regularly in his stunningly beautiful morning meditative poems.

Experience!

Love,

Nicole

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Hi, 

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Its all good, Alan.  I don't know about anyone else but I wasn't taking anything personally… not to say that I feel myself to be beyond ego.  I wouldn't even have thought much more about this discussion thread if Nicole hadn't referenced me in her reply to you.  I figured I should respond in case your comment was directed at me.

I must admit that, in general, this a very pesonal topic to me.  I often struggle with the question of what I know and what can be known.  I can't say that I've yet come to terms with this issue.  I meditated for years partly because I desired to discover some kind of certainty about reality but for the most part meditation had the opposite effect.

My experience is that we can see beyond the ego.  But I also feel that there are other limits to experience besides ego.  I have no opinion about whether all limits can be seen beyond.  I can't even comprehend what that might mean. 

“Seeing beyond” is a relative goal.  What I'm curious about is not just what is beyond the ego but what may be beyond “seeing” itself… that is to say what may beyond human experience altogether…. which would therefore be beyond human language and human interpretations… and thus beyond this discussion.

Another thing is that I have doubts that the ultimate purpose of meditation is to see beyond anything.  As I understand, its simply to fully be where I am amidst my limitations.  My favorite title of a Buddhist book is Wisdom of No Escape (by Pema Chodron).  Ain't that a great title? 

Its true, though, that there are many views of meditation.  Most simply, I take my queue from Krishnamurti.  But he didn't take a traditional view on meditation.  As I understand Krishnamurti, his view is that meditation is nothing more than awareness.  Anything beyond my direct experience is speculation.  Of course, what may seem like speculation to me may be someone else's actual experience and vice versa.

Part of this seeming difference between your view and mine may merely be interpretation.  We are discussing our experiences which isn't the same thing as the experiences themselves.  The experiences we've had may not be that different.  Then again, from an enactivist viewpoint we can't separate our experiences from our interpretations.

In conclusion, I say that I don't know.  I neither agree nor disagree with you, believe or disbelieve you because I have no basis of knowing your experience.  I will say that if you've truly experienced that which is beyond all limits, then from my ego perspective I must admit to being jealous.  :)

Marmalade

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Dear Alan, it's good no one is taking anything personally here :) but thanks for checking in with us about that. I really enjoy your perpectives and the amazing experiences from which they flow, they enrich our discussions here very much.

This is a massively debated philosophical topic, as I'm sure you know. It's deeply personal in that in a way our entire view of life depends on it, so it's no wonder we can get passionate on the topic.

I agree with Marmalade that we have many limits besides ego, due to the particular physical, mental, emotional and spiritual ways we are alive not just as humans beings in general but each of us as the specific human being we are, with a certain personality, knowledge-set slowly expanding, etc

So, without experiencing what you have experienced, or anything like it, it would be challenging for us to have your approach to it. But hopefully we can continue to learn from each other as best we can.

Light and peace,

Nicole

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I have to say that I deeply admire the way this exchange of thought was handled diplomatically and with exquisite grace…..I wish things were handled like this out in the big blue world…..Thank you for showing me a way to resolution with kind words and tender loving care….

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Missy, my thanks to you for your sweet words!

Love,

Nicole

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I think the goal of meditation is to connect with the 'primal one,” the 'oneness of all things,' the 'superconsciousness,' the 'consciousness of the universe itself,' 'nirvana,' 'dao' etc etc.

yes, but “goal” is egoic and therefore, ego seeking ego. Ego has no idea what it is seeking, only an experience of 'lack' which it then seeks to abolish through the goal of 'spirtual practices.' Ego seeks perfection, but only in ego terms.

Once we assert a goal of transcending ego, we precisely posit that it exists and therefore reinforce a never-ending circularity.

The ancient masters taught to those who held to archaic mythical presentations of Spirit entirely egoic and allowing for no other perspective but that of 'self.' Therefore, the goal was to seek transcendence of the ego since the teacher needed to teach to the level of the student. Yet, the ancient  texts, although always relevant in the correct interpretation, may no longer serve the inner seeking of an evolved postmodern mind.

Radical detachment from ego thought was necessary in the axial age and may no longer resonate with postmodern mind. Now it seems many are seeking an integral perspective which does NOT seek to discard or demonize ego, but include it transformatively.

As I am beginning to understand, the very concept of 'transcendence' itself should be discarded as it tends toward exclusionism and asserts present impotence and weakness. If I am an 'ego' then I am flawed and thus inadequate and insufficient. But that inadequate 'self,' or ego, is that which must seek 'transcendence' and this smacks of a complete and total hypocrisy. If we go beyond ego but do not include ego we are probably deluding ourself.

Seeking to transcend or rise above limitations, since they essentially do not exist, will merely result in its changing shape and thus we will spend our lifetime (or many, if we believe in that) chasing all our many limitations which have always been the same 'thing.'

But, hey, I'm just saying….

Peace Angels,
mike S

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Hm, Mike, with that definition of transcendence, we agree: throw it out!

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Alan,

Seems like our point of departure may simply be our concepts of ego and self. I hold no difference between self and ego since ego is that package of beliefs that one determines is 'I.” Although I am familiar with the Buddhist perspective of Self or that which is above egoic 'self.' And this conceptualization seems inadequate.
But nevertheless, whether we refer to our individualistic aspect as self or ego, a 'less than' self or ego, is still seeking a 'greater than' what it now believes it is.  My only point is that what it is, must be included in what it seeks to become. therefore, nothing is discarded and eveything is included.

if we follow through with the logic that ego is seeking with ego when the self is seeking something beyond ego, than there's no point in seeking, at which point, giving up is a good idea.  

The question seems to be why would I seek beyond self except in my belief that self is inadequate? Thus, you are correct, “giving up is a good idea.” Better yet, recognizing that there is nothing to give up may be more adequate. Which then brings us to BE HERE NOW. Ahh, the paradox….

Looks like we're in complete agreement after all. LOL

Of course, any theoretical speculating that we might engage in would most likely crumble into a heap of platitudes when expressed through words. But its all in fun!

Thanks,
mike S

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Yeah, I'd say we agree pretty well also.  

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Hi Alan,

I had the benefit of reading not only this but also the other posts by you and Mike. Thanks so much to you both.

I appreciated your defining ego, as you make the excellent point that indeed there are a plethera of meanings.

I also think that what you say about choice is key and it is so true that we choose all day and all night, mostly without being aware.

That song, is it Reckoner by Radiohead? Intriguing lyrics…

Love,

Nicole

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Eli, I am grateful for all that you share from the Bhagwad Gita. I had never before known so much of its beauties and wisdom,

Love,

Nicole

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Nicole,
Bhagwad Gita is the summary of the entire Ancient Hindu Wisdom. It is not just a religious book. The wisdom spans from the most mundane to the most esoteric aspects. As you may have already noticed in my blog  Management Guidelines from The Bhagavad Gita it contains very specific, very mundane wisdom applicable to contemporary Management thoughts.

Much of what has been said in Bhagwad Gita has been unfortunately misinterpreted / misrepresented by some scholars. I would keep trying to share the beautiful pearls of wisdom as and when I find it relevant to the topic of discussion. 

Let me reiterate, there is no religious bias in my quotes from Bhagwad Gita. The wisdom contained in its verses are  universal, irrespective of any faith.

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Thanks, Eli, for explaining this. I'm slow on the uptake! :)

Hugs,

Nicole

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To understand this “predeterminiation” which really I tend to think of as “What I am here to do”…. interesting…

Really the answer to this question lies within ourselves, our “cosmic identity”. Once we know what we are truly, we can then know life's purpose.

This is all a very personal journey. One must remain open to all possibilities, and not get STUCK in one paradigm or another. Or social clique, way of thought, religious morals, etc. Drop all conceptions of what you are by definition of the mind. Throw out everything you've learned.

Any thought that divides and differentiates you from everything else is not what you are.

Know and understand yourself FIRST. Then you will SEE PURPOSE.

with love,

gypster

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…Eli , can you kindly furnish your translation of the verse 41,

chapter 10 , Vibhutiyoga ( yadyad vibhuti mat

satvam……….sambhavam ) ?…i referred to many texts but was not

satisfied as none could capture that impressive  essence of the Lord

capsuled in this particular Shloka…

 with humble pranams

-jagadish

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Jagdish, I will post it as soon as my Internet behaves less erratic

Eli

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Jagdish, on second thought, I think the explanation might be too long for a post here and may not interest all friends, so I will create a blog on my personal space and leave the link here for all those wanting to read.

Blessings

Eli

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Dear Jagdish,

Thankfully I could make my reply to your post relatively in brief, and hence I am posting it here.

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Eli, I'm grateful that you ended up being able to post it here after all so we may all benefit. Sorry to hear about the internet problems.

Much love,

Nicole

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Jagdish, I am humbled…

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Looks like Alan has hit the nail on the head in that free-will and predetermination are the same concepts.
 

The contrast between free-will and predestination can be conceptualized similar to the paradox of control and no-control. Many religious-spiritual paths advocate control, while others advocate surrender of control.

The paradox is that through asserting greater control one realizes a freedom from the need for control and thus experiences a surrender of control.

In surrendering control one realizes a greater ease in maneuvering and negotiating life and thus, experiences a sense of greater control.

Essentially, we never really choose one path over another as both free-will and predestination, control and no-control, are exactly the same (although the world does seem more predisposed toward teaching control above no control and this gives the illusion of free-will an experience of reality).

The choice between two paths is both real and illusion and that paradox is similar to the real and illusory world we require in order to experience 'life.'

Peace Angels,
mike S

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I am most likely in way over my head here….so many great minds….I feel very small…..Isn't the point that we live life, we search, we work…..We go towards our destiny, whatever and wherever that may be?  We put our faith in whatever higher power we may choose to guide us on our own personal road to happy destiny?  As long as we live in the moment….do we really have to worry about the ride?  I used to put so much effort in to what I thought MY destiny, MY children's destiny, even MY husband's destiny should be….what a waste of time and energy.  I do not presume to know anything…..I only know, for me, life is too short to worry about the destination….I am so much happier not having to make the road map.

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hi missy, i think everyone on the god pod would always welcome your perspective, so know worries, fire away……:)

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I would suggest we are all predestined to awaken to the reality of our being in  the same way that a person who falls asleep and dreams, though his dreams are random, is predestined to wake up, eventually.

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I supposed it is destined that we will continue to be fascinated with this topic and keep asking and coming up with the many approaches. :) I'm fascinated by all the different approaches you take - Frances, Alan, Mike, DPI, andrew and Andrew (both of you :) ), Missy, Marmalade…

Alan and Mike, I more and more am getting to the place where I see as you do that many things we think are utterly opposed are parts of the Oneness. I appreciate your contributions very much.

Missy, please don't be intimidated by the cerebral approaches of some. I love my cerebral friends here and learn much from them but just as much I love and learn from those who take the heart-full path you do, and hope that you and everyone here always feel free to jump in and share your viewpoint. We all gain thereby.

Andrew, I like what you say about us all being meant to be awake just as the dreamer must awaken. Hmm, that seems to be a good segue into lucid dreaming if DPI is still paying attention :)

Love and light and peace to you all,

Nicole

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‘Essentially, we never really choose one path over another…’
I believe that this is only true when you are talking about very basics of - we are gone be born and we are going to die. Once you look into nuts and bolts of life and of what do we eat and how do we treat our mind or body or emotions, or what do we do with our thoughts or aggression or love or compassion, all becomes a matter of choice - isn’t it? And if we eat shit, our body will suffer and if we treat Earth irresponsibly, Earth will suffer… I have to agree with one of the previous posts about the fundamentalism of ‘karma’ belief - one just needs to go to India and see the results of it. We very often use ‘Destiny’ as an excuse so we would not need to take the responsibility of own actions. If everything is pre-determined, we can ‘choose’ to do anything we want or even worst not to do / think / act when we should be…

Every morning, when I wake up, I do have a choice and the choice is to face the world with love and awareness or to walk all through the day asleep, hating everything that comes my way, and that choice creates my heaven or hell - this type of choice is all I need to create my own ‘Destiny’

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Well said, Nuit! (Love your nick, by the way)

Love,

Nicole

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                                  Destiny, Fate & Free Will

     Life is a journey. We are all born into a set of predetermined factors. We are all born into a particular family, neighborhood, city, state and nation. We have a predetermined set of genes that will affect our health.  We all have a particular set of talents and addictions of one form or another. These pre-determined factors create a set of circumstances that we are born with and into. They profoundly influence us and, when we are young, impressionable and totally dependent upon our parents for sustenance, they can affect and even limit the choices we are able to make. Once most people are able to sustain ourselves, these factors can be less limiting because adulthood offers one more choices.

     Throughout our lives we journey down the path of our life, taking a step with each choice we make. These choices should eventually develop into goals and hopefully a plan to reach the goals. Some choices are small, others are major. Some bring us closer to our goal, and others take us in a wrong direction making detours, taking us further from our goals and even limiting our choices for the foreseeable future.  

     Your destiny and your fate can be determined by the choices you make freely; more so if you have a goal and a plan to achieve it. Often people are born into adverse circumstances that would ordinarily limit their choices and thus be more likely to predetermine their fate or destiny. Many societies have caste systems of one form or another. Historically people born into a lower caste or lower class are prohibited from rising above it. People do, however rise above it, often by changing their residence to a location that has less limiting factors or in rare cases, by changing the system in which they are living through evolution, revolution or united action.

     In essence, we all have certain predetermined factors that limit our access to the destiny we desire,  but we can, through the exercise of free will, setting goals, planning and making the right choices consistently, rise above the determining factors and create our own destiny.

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This is a wonderful exposition of how predetermination and free will work together in our lives. Thank you, Mr, for taking the time to share it with us.

Love,

Nicole

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The answers to this question seems clear just in the first few posts here. When we think we have upset our friends we CHOOSE to do all we can to keep them our friend. (As was discussed in early post) We speak to each other with respect and we show a good attitude. If we don't… well people will ignore us and/or we may get banned from the pod.
Control. (destiny)
Not so bad when it's purpose is to maintain love. Control removes
choice. (freewill)
But it's our choice to be controlled. Because those out of control we fear. They are unpredictable and it's hard to see their path or their destiny. Other than we shun them and ignore them. So we create our own answers, then try to find those who agree with us. The truth is, all we really need to avoid, is those who might kill us. Religion uses life's story to threaten us with death. We all die so it's a real threat. “Be like this or god will kill you, then torture you” But if when we die we are cut off from those we perceived as a threat to our life. (Those who would like to see us tortured, for religious reasons or their own pleasure) Maybe the after life will be happier. And if you end up on one side or on the other side of that gulf that's said to exist after death, neither is truly heaven or hell, but those who would kill you are guaranteed to be on the other side of that gulf. Guaranteeing you will be in YOUR own heaven.

If in a computer game matrix (like the construct in the film the Matrix) or a fully lucid dream, where all the creations are only creations of your own mind, (and memories.) What would you keep. What would you do away with? Freewill would not limited you to your pre given knowledge and preconceptions of physical and moral laws. Each moment is your own creation, Would you take gods 10 commandments as a basis for your new rules? Or even some of them? Thou shalt not kill! Would you need to? (Does GOD need too??) Wouldn't it depend solely on the friends who you wanted to take with you on that journey? If indeed you needed to take anyone? So with gods rules, or evolution's rules, we would need something of what “millions of years” of evolution/creation has produced. Eyes? Ears? Patterns and shapes that are familiar to us. Where would you start in creating your own universe with no one else's influence involved? No one else's input? What would you choose to look like? Would you even choose to HAVE an appearance? That's not to say that you have to do any of the things you learned in this world, but maybe appreciation for the lifetime of experiences which has shown you some of the possibilities and there pros and cons, not offering worship as such, but acknowledgment to the effort that went before us to produce the world we live in. A brief moment of “Thank you” Where would I be, had I to build my world and the universe myself….

Everyone only really wants to know they are safe and not alone. People may think they want to be alone or unsafe at times. But usually just to remind them they prefer to be safe and not alone. Hence we ask the question… Is this our destiny, is there a plan? Our choices are guided by how we feel, about the other people in our life. Their take on what's going on alters our perspective. So our destiny is altered by the things done by those who we care for and by those we accept in to our life. When we feel safe based on the knowledge that our friends are guiding us down a good path, free will seems good, destiny seems well planned. When our friends are hostile or trying to manipulate us, we question if they are truly our friends. Is my destiny really stuck with these guys? Can't I choose to ignore this friends attack? We balance that with the cost, and how much we value the friendship and so we write our own plan to continue our destiny. People who NEED fear to control us either know a “truth” that we are evil, and we need controlling, or doubt that love has the power to solve problems better than fear can? My only fear is that such people who use fear to control others might take longer to understand that only love units people. God IS love. Those who don't believe in love, cause more divisions by uniting people throw fear the most destructive, divisive tool there is. I don't think we need Jesus to DO anything to save us. All we need is a belief in love. He's already given us ALL, that belief. Pain comes not from god punishing you, but from your own lack of putting out  love/god. People love those who love them. Jesus even loved his “enemies” If we have NO love or… WORSE don't believe in love. How can anyone love us.. if you don't believe they are loving you what's the point? You don't believe you are loved “Hell” (said to be the none belief in god or the none belief in love!! Since god IS love) is self destructive and cannot exist, because only love produces life. Sentient living creatures decided this fact consciously somewhere in evolution's process. And it became an important part of long term memory, which we choose to call DNA. That love would become the one thing which creates babies/new life, this was decided upon consciously, by the spirit of loves self awareness.
Despite our arrogance that only now with scientific knowledge can we “consciously CHOOSE” the path of evolution. Choices made consciously by ALL living beings through ALL of time have decided our fate and directed our world. Its been conscious evolution ALL along. Maybe we don't remember “exactly” how such choices were made but they have brought us here. Someone felt or believed a certain path should be followed and it effected our destiny and our DNA.

Re: Destiny Predetermination

Good to see you again here, DPI.

 Religion uses life's story to threaten us with death. We all die so it's a real threat. “Be like this or god will kill you, then torture you” But if when we die we are cut off from those we perceived as a threat to our life. (Those who would like to see us tortured, for religious reasons or their own pleasure) Maybe the after life will be happier. And if you end up on one side or on the other side of that gulf that's said to exist after death, neither is truly heaven or hell, but those who would kill you are guaranteed to be on the other side of that gulf. Guaranteeing you will be in YOUR own heaven.

You have to admit, it's an attractive model! :)

If in a computer game matrix (like the construct in the film the Matrix) or a fully lucid dream, where all the creations are only creations of your own mind, (and memories.) What would you keep. What would you do away with?

Very intriguing questions. What about you? How would you answer these questions?

Eyes? Ears? Patterns and shapes that are familiar to us. Where would you start in creating your own universe with no one else's influence involved? No one else's input? What would you choose to look like? Would you even choose to HAVE an appearance?

Right, after all appearances are so limiting.

Everyone only really wants to know they are safe and not alone.
People may think they want to be alone or unsafe at times. But usually just to remind them they prefer to be safe and not alone. Hence we ask the question… Is this our destiny, is there a plan? …

My only fear is that such people who use fear to control others might take longer to understand that only love units people. God IS love. Those who don't believe in love, cause more divisions by uniting people throw fear the most destructive, divisive tool there is…

Yes, I think so too.

I'd like to hear more about your thoughts.

Light and peace,

Nicole

Re: Destiny Predetermination

In short its not about the destination of destiny, its about the journey and who you would have go with you on that journey.

Belief  is very powerful even if it is a false belief.

If I believe my dying can save thousands, millions, that belief can kill me.
If I believe torture is acceptable and shouldn't be stopped or prevented even if maybe I believe it is gods will to torture and kill and “punish” a person for their sins, performed in a short human life time, which had no clear guidance from god, only faith based guidance. Yet still they suffer forever. Then I know I have gone mad and god himself has fooled me to show me my insanity even if he tested me to see if I WOULD believe such nonsence. Then my belief has I failed  me, by my lack of faith in loves true meaning. I will have missed the whole point.

Re: Destiny Predetermination

In short its not about the destination of destiny, its about the journey and who you would have go with you on that journey.

Belief  is very powerful even if it is a false belief.

Indeed! So, where do we go from here?

Peace,

Nicole

Re: Destiny Predetermination

first things first Nicole…

lets make sure everybody has clean fresh drinking water available on tap to their own home. Once we can organise that we deserve to decide our own destiny.

Re: Destiny Predetermination

Right-oh!

Re: Destiny Predetermination

Howdy,
For me, the idea of Total Predeterminism (God totally controls each and every moment of the day, etc.) is quickly eliminated with the old postulation:

“I think, therefore I am.”

Now, I can't remember which philosopher said this (please don't tell my Philosophy Professor!); can anybody help me with that tidbit? All I remember is that what is translated “I think therefore I am” was originally “I doubt, therefore I am.”

The very fact that we can suspect our own mental and moral freedom is a good indicator that it actually exists. Those who were totally controlled by the puppet-master would not bother to debate the existence of strings.

Peace!

Re: Destiny Predetermination

This is absolutely true. Why do we debate the strings? Because we are in control of our own direction and destiny, not destined for a specific purpose. But ….not quite ….many of the strings we can actually see, the ties of family bonds. The ropes of gravity that hold us down here on earth, preventing us explore the heavens. We are tied to an eco system that is finely balanced and ready topple if we knock it out of sync'.
The strings DO decide our destiny and we die if we defy the strings for too long. But we like our life with the strings so much better than death without them…….. The strings are created out of love to give life meaning and direction. Love is the thread that the strings are made of.

Re: Destiny Predetermination

hi Samantha :D

'Cogito ergo sum' (i think therefore i am) was Rene Descarte. 

300 years later, Sartre responded 'the consciousness that says 'i am' is not the consciousness that thinks.'  suggesting that we are not the voice in our head, but the observer of that voice, the presence, the awareness of that voice speaking. :D

Re: Destiny Predetermination

Hello, I have one. Heard it on the radio one day driving to work. Do we think with our minds, or for minds, to which I add. Do we think with and as part of  life that we are or for and from the perpespective of life we encapsulate? Or is it not a slice of both that makes us whole, such that while we can detemine the path, the journey of life, as an even greater whole, will and does continues on whether we are aware or not. Such that life be it as simple as tree or as complex as we believe ourselves to be will and does look after itself as needed like the layers of bark upon a tree are a lesson learned and measure towards greater growth.
Thanks

Re: Destiny Predetermination

Samantha, great to have you joining in here and don't worry your Philosophy Professor will not learn of this from us! :)

Just Me, you are most welcome too. That is an excellent question. Perhaps life is much more complex than we can know - and also more simple.

Love,

Nicole

Re: Destiny Predetermination

I think you covered this point very well.  I also think it is foolish to let the question rest.  The moment we stop thinking about such thought provoking questions is the moment we give up our free will, in a sense.  Life is a series of experiences and decisions.  All of us have varying beliefs in higher powers.  And thus, we must realize that in any system of beliefs, the important question is, what is going to make me the happiest and achieve the most fulfillment in my life?  Some of the things we face are difficult and hard to understand and it almost seems to be a comfort to let go of understanding it and trust it must have been a predetermined event.  However, how we choose to deal with these types of things is what makes us.  That is where the true sense of free will lies.  We can become bitter and hardened or we can choose to grow into a more compassionate, enlightened, out-reaching person.  We are given the gift of life for the purpose of finding happiness.  We all have different sources of what brings us that happiness.  It is essential that every day we take the time to face the good and the bad with the belief in free will.  That is why we are accountable.  That is why there are consequences.  Our actions cause reactions.  To recongnize this and live it,  is to take each moment for its full value and convert it into something that enriches us and the lives of others.  To do otherwise is to harden yourself against the possibilities of life and admit you cannot make a difference.  That would be a shame!

Re: Destiny Predetermination

There is the mind and then there is the soul. We think with our mind but we listen with our soul. Sometimes our soul communicates what it has heard to our mind and our mind links to our brain and causes us to act. For instance, one may have a premonition to take another route, and suddenly, almost inexplicably, change to that route only to find that something horrible happened on the route that was originally supposed to be taken. The soul heard the message, conveyed it to the mind as a thought, the mind told the brain and the brain told the body to act.

Re: Destiny Predetermination

the oracle speaking to neo, ” your here to understand why you make these choices.”

i suspect most of us choose out of fear rather than love…………

Re: Destiny Predetermination

Cindy, sorry, I saw your post before and wanted to respond. Thanks Mr and andrew for jogging my memory. You make some good points here, thank you for contributing. It is indeed such a vital discussion that in a way it can never end.

andrew, that's a very apt quote from the Matrix. You may be right, that we often choose out of fear than love.

How do we learn then to choose more out of love?

Light and peace,

Nicole