The ego and the self-reflecting world

Image: the world you see is the world you believe in.

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

This puts me into Philip K. Dick mode.  lol

Maybe its both image and counter-image.  Psychologically speaking, seeing and believing are inseparable from the get-go.  Its not that either leads to the other but that they reinforce one another.  Even if they were different, how would you know?  Maybe its just that you believe they are different and so see it that way.. whether or not its actually that way.  :)

We may not be the same thing as what we see in the mirror.  But which is the real one?  Maybe its like the story about the butterfly/monk dream.  Is there an advantage to absolutely knowing one way or another?

I'm just being playful here.  I don't really see it as a philosophical discussion.  I'm just presenting a thought experiment.

Marmalade

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

my question is to you - what doesn't put you into PKD mode? :):):) now i'm being playful.

seriously, though, I like your approach, as these kinds of questions (thanks, Alan!) are most fruitfully approached, I believe, with the greatest amount of openness and non-attachment to answers.

Love,

Nicole

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Well… er, ummm… eating cereal doesn't put me into PKD mode.
So there!  Ha!  :)

I sometimes get into philosophical debating some issue but its never very much fun.  I prefer thought experiments.  Its difficult not to get attached to some answer.  That is why I usually emphasize the experience angle because it puts the discussion on a different level.  Its my attempt to be humble by keeping it simple.  And, even if I fail to be perfectly humble, keeping it simple is still a good thing.

Marmalade

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Really! Eating cereal eh… LOL!

Keeping is simple is good, sure. And no one can be perfectly humble!

Love,

Nicole

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

‘the world you believe in is the world you see’

i think this is absolutely true within the world of human interactions and relationships. if we treat one another with love, respect, freedom, there are more of these things in the people-o-sphere and this perpetuates a delicious cycle. of course if we tip toward fear, anger, hatred, greed…we encourage a destructive cycle.

i also think it’s true that the mind will see whatever it has been conditioned to see, but i’d never suggest that there is no more than is visible to our eyes/minds.

if we take it to the extreme and suggest that all things in the universe order themselves based on our individual preconceptions…well, let’s just say i have trouble wrapping my mind around that one, for our perceptions are so varied and fickle, yet all that has been manifest within the Kosmos has required consistency and reason that seem beyond us.

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

This is so true, Joshua. I can't tell you how many times I have seen people who approach life and situations as the enemy constantly having to deal with an inordinate number of stressful and antagonistic situations, while people with a deeply peaceful and open approach eventually see even those who disagree deeply with them come to them with arms wide.

At the same time, there are common realities that we have to deal with regardless of our individual perceptions, as has been really really :) thoroughly discussed in the recent blog symposium here.

Peace,

Nicole

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Joshua, I would say that all things in YOUR universe

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

The best thought experiments are those that involve the viewpoints of others.  For then its not just a matter of understanding their logic but also understanding with that which underlies their logic.  This is where rationality has its limits and empathy is required.  When in the right mindset, I can get an inkling of another person's perspective and it feels like glimpsing a whole other reality. 

Taking on another person's perspective as if its your own is beyond mere empathy.  This would necessitate imagination but you couldn't imagine all aspects of another.  Your thought experiment was limited to beliefs which is probably an easier starting point.  What you tried makes me think of NLP.

I've played around with taking on different belief systems.  The challenge is that its almost impossible to do this entirely.  As I was saying in my previous post, we can't fully separate our sense of self from our beliefs about reality.  So, to change anything more than superficial beliefs it is necessary to shift our very sense of self.  Or that is the way it seems to me.  

Plus, we have to consider our personal motivations which will bias the thought experiment.  The seeking of evidence for beliefs one normally disagrees with would demand something like objectivity meaning a sense of intersubjectivity (ie common human experience).  Still, our individual subjectivity will filter the evidence we seek.  The evidence that one finds for beliefs that one disagrees with won't be the same as the evidence that someone has found who holds such a belief without reservation and possibly for years or decades. 

Seeking the evidence that surrounds a particular belief is interesting, but evidence too often comes as a rationalization after the belief is already accepted.  More interesting (and more difficult) is finding the experience that preceeded the belief itself.  And this demands touching upon the heart of another person's reality, their soul.

I'd like to hear your fascinating story… whenever you're ready to share.

Marmalade

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Yes, I always enjoy hearing more from you too, Alan. Whenever you wish.

Marmalade, I think you're spot on with this. I know some people like our dear Kathy (Centria) who really enjoy these kinds of experiments, and I think they are valuable. But ultimately we cannot replicate another's perspective flawlessly.

Love,

Nicole

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Alright.  : )

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Fascinating, Alan. It makes sense that with these sorts of “chemistry” experiments - good analogy! - everything would look different.

I'm more intrigued than ever!

Love,

Nicole

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

I'd have to say I believe in the chemistry set analogy and this: “or, to put it in the language of this thread, if “you see what you believe, and  you believe what you see,”  than changes directly to belief will in time change the actual world one finds oneself in… which fits with the Buddhist idea that the world is illusion.  It's possible to transcend the illusion and be in it at the same time.  Seeing beyond it in a sense one has a choice to participate in it willingly instead of leaving.  
If you do so, you realize the 'illusion,' the world your in, is malleable, depending on YOU.  Change indeed comes from within.
This is what a Bodhisattva is: one who recognized and did not completely leave.  Bold claim, but ask one of them.  They'll tell you the same.  : )”

You can choose (subconciously or conciously) to accept only what you perceive as reality (based on your limited senses) or you can know instinctively what is true despite what you see and act to realize that in the world (belief on reality instead of reality on belief).  Sometimes we go back and forth on this.  Regardless it's a case of Schrodinger's cat.

”

In the world of quantum mechanics, the laws of physics that are familiar from the everyday world no longer work. Instead, events are governed by probabilities. A radioactive atom, for example, might decay, emitting an electron, or it might not. It is possible to set up an experiment in such a way that there is a precise fifty-fifty chance that one of the atoms in a lump of radioactive material will decay in a certain time and that a detector will register the decay if it does happen. Schrödinger, as upset as Einstein about the implications of quantum theory, tried to show the absurdity of these implications by imagining such an experiment set up in a closed room, or box, which also contains a live cat and a phial of poison, so arranged that if the radioactive decay does occur then the poison container is broken and the cat dies. In the everyday world, there is a fifty-fifty chance that the cat will be killed, and without looking inside the box we can say, quite happily, that the cat inside is either dead or alive. But now we encounter the strangeness of the quantum world. According to the theory, neither of the two possibilities open to the radioactive material, and therefore to the cat, has any reality unless it is observed. The atomic decay has neither happened nor not happened, the cat has neither been killed nor not killed, until we look inside the box. Theorists who accept the pure version of quantum mechanics say that the cat exists in some indeterminate state, neither dead nor alive, until an observer looks into the box to see how things are getting on. Nothing is real unless it is observed. Gribbin, pp. 2-3”

The reality believe will alter the reality we sense in the end and will in some way alter the universal reality because our actions will change as a result of our perception.  Whether the cat is dead or not will only change for Schrodinger if he opens that door (of course the cat will eventually die of starvation anyway if he doesn't but that's another matter).  However, in the universal sense the reality will change regardless of whether Schrodinger sees it or even if he does because one way or another poison will spill or not and the cat will die whether from poison or starvation if Schrodinger chooses not to look.  If he opens the door and the cat lives, he'll still change things because he'll choose to let the cat go on it's way or try again.  Or he'll try again with something else next time.  Or even if he doesn't, he'll have to decide what to do with that box and the poison which could end up in the hands of someone who will do good or bad with it in which case he's still changed things and so on.  For every action a reaction into infinity.

Universally it's like a giant organism and we are just one of the million cells that make it up.  What happens in the cell has some effect but it can be great or small.  It can do it's thing and just cause the organism to keep going or it can get radical and grow like a cancer and destroy the organism.  Think of someone creating a Gigantic haldon collider that could create a black hole big enough to actually harm the universe.  There you go.  Someone who just drives an SUV harms the earth, but the one who build a haldon collider that crosses the earth could do far worse to change things.  It's all relative.  In some way change will happen.  The reality from that will happen at a universal level regardless of whether we perceive it as reality or not.  Whether you think the world is really flat or the sun revolves around the earth really only changes your own reality and the reality of perhaps many humans around you, but ultimately it makes no difference to the universe because that keeps on going whether we all kill each other over such beliefs.  But if it does, it won't be a human reality any longer, it will be universal and every other beings'.

The trick is to understand that and still decide to stay in your limited state knowing it is but with a greater awareness.  To me that's the point you really transcend your ego because you become aware of what you really mean in the scheme of things and you have new humility.  You realize the big organism does not revolve around one tiny cell, but it's actually the other way around.  Yet, you realize the organism could change without the symphony of all the cells and that is the beauty of it all.  That is the point so beautifyl it makes me want to weep.  That is Nirvana.  At least that's my belief - such as it is, limited by my own senses.

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Welcome to the discussion, Zanne Marie! That article on Schroedinger's cat was fascinating.

Love,

Nicole

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Zanne, yes!

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

whoa.  I've tried to post it there times now: before I hit “send post,” I can see the excerpt, and it's there, and I can manipulate it.  After I send it, however, it doesn't show up in the pod?  at all.  Very strange.  

Oh well.  I'm sure there's a reason why.

So here's a link.

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

I've seen that kind of glitch before. Glad you found a workaround.

Thanks for the link, I look forward to reading it tomorrow. Good night!

Love,

Nicole

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

I really enjoyed reading your thread here.  It is something I have kind of suspected.  However, I agree that the “river is real”.  There are constants.  I suspect that on this plane of existance, they don't completely apply.  I have always believed that this is what Jesus was telling us, how to live within those parameters.  Only,  His word was greatly misunderstood, misinterpreted, and changed. 

Did you ever have one of those moments where the “shade on the window to REAL” was lifted?  It only lasts a few seconds.  But, in those seconds, you know you are experiencing something outside of reality and seeing REALITY?  Okay, I am sounding like a bit of a drug addict (I don't do drugs) or a person with a certain mental problem.  But, I swear, this has happened and I am not nuts.  I also think that we all experience such moments.  It is just that most pay little heed to them.  Ahh, it shall all make sense some day. 

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Yes, exactly, Opening, this is what we've been trying to get at in this thread and in a number of other threads. Those brief tastes of Real Reality that most of  us experience only in passing but which bring on a longing for much more.

Love,

Nicole

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

     I think that perception is everything. Your perception determines your reality. Not reality, just your version of reality. The problem arises when your version of reality and actual reality collide.

     In the late 1880's when Native Americans had been moved by force to reservations, a medicine man came up with an idea that spread across Indian nations like wildfire. He devised a spirit dance that would make indian warriors spirits, rendering them invincible to the white man's bullets. Thousands of indians left their reservations and waged war, only to be slaughtered in droves when they charged U.S. Army pickets. Their version of reality collided with actual reality with horribly tragic consequences. Your version of reality vs actual reality. The consequences could be devastating.

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Your perception determines your perception that perception determines reality?  “Actual reality” would be so determined too, no?  Etc.

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

That's a tragic story Mr.

Sorry, Tom, would you mind filling that out a bit more for us? I'm not following you.

Love,

Nicole

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Hi Nicole, one cannot say “perception determines reality” without involving oneself in contradiction.  To wit: the statement “perception determines reality” cannot be taken as true because it then would be a statement about reality not determined by perception, which is self-contradictory.

A similar contradictory structure can be seen in statements like:

This statement is false.

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Got it! Thanks!

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Hello Nicole, In the book bury my heart at wounded knee the story is explained. As for my understanding of it, it would appear those warriors were not destroyed just changed the appearance of the way dance still on our conscience.
Thanks

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Hi, I'm glad you mentioned this, because as I was posting the other response, I was thinking about the difference between “reality” and Reality - wondering what “really” happened to those warriors. Jesus' words in Matthew 10:28 when he said do not be afraid of those who just kill the body.

Love,

Nicole:

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Could you elaborate on the story of the soldiers at wounded knee?  I have not heard about this. 

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

I do not believe that perception determines reality. I merely believe that one's perception determines one's reality. One's perception of reality may or may not be actual reality depending on how close to reality one's perception is. If a group of people witness another person being robbed, they may or may not be able to describe it accurately depending on whether or not they have had a previous similar and traumatic experience before, if they are blind or sighted, if they are normal or psychotic.

Perception is determined by several factors. These factors can change but are usually one's experience, memory, mental state, schema and senses. Differences in any of these factors can alter one's perception of any given experience. Bungee jumping for example can be perceived differently if the one experiencing it has or has not done it, are or are not blindfolded or are told they are going to do it or are asleep and wake up just as they are being pushed off of the bridge.  

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Tom:

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Interesting thread.  Indeed, “Every molecule, every atom and every star are all part of a consciousness.  as are you and I.”  I think we often think of things in the wrong order; in the case of the cat, if the cat is dead then it is dead no matter whether we have looked into the box or not.  We understand the condition of the cat when we observe the condition.  The central subject of the experiment is what has happened to the cat, not whether we have checked on it or not.

 Awareness is what we allow ourselves to understand.

I feel that consciousness is made up of energy (matter, mass, gravity, the concepts of power, attraction, repulsion), which we are physically composed of, and to a much greater extent, non energy, which contains the contents of thought (not neccessarily the ability to think) and what we might consider the “soul”, which is what connects our physical existance with consciousness.

Every belief system is a perspective of reality, a perspective of God.  If you can view reality (God) from different perspectives without considering them seperately as “good” or “bad”, then you allow yourself to become more cognizant of reality as a whole, instead of just a perspective of the whole.

The more you are aware of, the easier kindness becomes, and the more you come to understand that love is not just an emotion shared between individuals, but that it is in fact the fabric of the consciousness which contains us all.

Blessings and Peace 

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Dennis, perhaps you're thinking about consciousness in the wrong order.  Everything that is, at it's most fundemental level, is Consciousness. 

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

The problem I have with this, if I understand it correctly, and similar theories, is it presumes that we are in complete control, it assumes that there is nothing larger than us, it has, at its base, the idea or belief that we are able to conceive of all there is and how it operates.  I firmly believe that we aren't, there is, and we cannot.  So, why try?  Why not just accept that there is something larger than us, something else that is in control, and that our minds are not any where near able to conceive, nor understand, all of the workings in the universe and attempting to do so, which man has done throughout time without success, is in error.  I will point out that my even stating this is also an effort along the same lines.  What I am saying is what is so wrong with faith?  Don't people read the Bible, at least in part, any longer? 

There are many descriptions in the Bible of individuals that thought they had it all worked out, were in control, were the control over their destinies, only to be shown, nope, it just aint so and to think so is to define oneself as a god.  When you do that, hey, you are headed for nothing but trouble. 

We are part of the ALL.  But, we are a long ways from being able to control even one small part of it.  Check out the level of death and destruction in the world at this very moment.  Something bigger, greater, and far more wiser than us is at the helm.  There is a plan and we can't opt out of it with all our wills put together trying to conceive of nothing but positive energy and light.  It just doesn't work that way.

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Opening

We, all but a very few, are not in complete control.  Most are not in control at all.  What is necessary for the LOA to work to any degree is some control over what thoughts an individual entertains. I wouldn't say

“it assumes there that there is nothing larger than us”


it's more like we are all intimately connected to the Whole.  It's not really a matter of  the mind being able to conceive  all the workings of the universe.   It's a matter of understanding how the universe works.  Like the Law of Gravity we attract to ourselves the conditions and experiences that correspond to our predominate habitual thought patterns.  I can't repeal the Law of Gravity simply by disagreeing with it.  So too the Law of Attraction is working whether we agree with it or not.  Many  of us that are trying to make people aware of it  are doing so in order to help alleviate the suffering in the world that you refer to.  Using the principles to increase one's wealth or celebrity is a fundamental misuse of the ability and will ultimately lead to perdition.

There are a number of references in the Bible to the same principle. The one that come immediately to mind is “You reap what you sow” (please excuse any technical inaccuracy in the quote I am not a Bible scholar).   This passage is usually interpreted to mean that you reap the fruits of your actions but any action first begins in the mind as a thought (even if it's a sub-conscious one).  To a much larger degree one reaps the fruits of the thoughts one thinks about all the time.

There is nothing wrong with Faith so long as one's beliefs don't cause another pain.  Belief is a powerful thing.  If you believe that the Laws of Attraction are bogus then the ability to intentionally shape your own experience will be unavailable to you.   It doesn't mean this ability is a delusion. 

It is interesting to discuss this topic in this pod but there is so much more to this topic that is beyond the scope of this forum. 

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Here is a quote that gets at what I am trying to say that is tied into this whole, your perception is your reality stuff.  I found it on the web some time ago:

“Your ego is the sum total of your conditioning and this is not your personal identity.  No personal self needs to be conceptualized in order to function effectively.  Only consciousness exists and you are that consciousness.”

In other words, what you are aware of.  Now, this can include a whole bevy (like that word) of stuff.  Your in laws, the dog down the street that wants to bite you because that is what it thinks dogs do, your children, your boss, etc.  You are this head floating around on top of a body talking and interacting with the world.  You don't have to sit down and figure out who you are or how you got here, you can just be.  Within that consciousness, can also be an awareness of God.  An awareness of something is knowing that it is there.  It is connected to your thoughts through your awareness of it.  You can increase this awareness, but, as it is not completely of you, you can never know it in full nor can you control it.   Nor, do you have to. 

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

hello opening, 

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Alan,

You mistake my meaning.  I meant that we are absolutely not in control nor do we have the ability to gain complete control or the ability to understand how the universe works.  We can understand the science of its activity over time.  But, what set it all in motion from the begining and where it all came from, no.  It just is. 

Our brains are not capable of understanding that which is not of the physical realm.   We can come up with theories.  But, change it, alter it, direct it, nope, we can't.  Anything that we create has to be done in agreement with God.  Sooner or later, you will come up against a wall–get a disease you can't wish away, lose a job that is important to you.  Only that which serves the development and growth of your soul will be allowed you.  You may think you are making these determinations, but it is only a delusion.  We are too low on the spectrum of intelligent beings to be able to understand it all.  We are children and are able to only get a glimpse of it.  If it were possible for man to completely direct his life, the world would be a much different place.  It isn't a matter of me not giving recognition to this ability, I know it does not exist.  You phantom a dream.  You want to make yourself, and man, into gods.  It just isn't so and you will tie yourself up in knots trying to do so.  Happy thoughts are happy thoughts.  Of course positive thinking is better than negative thinking and is most likely to bring you a happier life because, heck, you would be so much more fun to be around and folks will like you and you will like yourself.  But, will this get you true wisdom?  No 

Consciousness is different than awareness in that a person can be conscious of a, b, and c today, but yet to be aware of d, e, and f.  I don't disagree that we are one and share a universal consciousness.  I know that we do not control our lives to the extent this “positive thinking” or however you want to label it, trend leads people to think.  Nothing is separate from God and all the thinking you are in control is not going to put you in control.  Awareness will come to you and it does come from you.  But that which brings you to awareness is outside of you.  That is God.   It is God that brings the circumstances needed to take you to d, e, and f.  You, no one, has the foggiest notion of what it will take to open their soul to complete awareness because they aren't conscious of it–they don't know what all is in the ALL to be able to take themselves there.  Do you know how many hairs are on your head?  Nope?  God does.

I gotta ask, why do you have to believe that you have this power, this ability to create out of nothing a life that is going to bring you to completeness?  How would you ever know you were there?  You can run around thinking that you do, but given the expansiveness of the universe and that it is speeding up in its expanding everyday, and that is only what can be perceived in the physical, how would you ever know you were complete?  You could be complete in a box.  Did you ever read “The Myth of the Cave?'  You can only be conscious of that which has already been brought into your awareness.  You can never know what is outside of that and it isn't going to come to you with positive thinking.  How can you conceive of an experience that is yet to come other than one that is of the material and physical?  You can dream, you can fantasize.  But, If you want wisdom, that is something else altogether.  

Another quote:

“Man did not weave the web of life, he is merely a strand in it.”

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Sorry, my last reply was to Ricosma, not Alan. 

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

: ) I'm glad you cleared that up.  I responded, then deleted.  : )

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Sounds like…

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realise that what you heard is not what I meant….

- an eccentric Aussie

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

You don't create the signal, the signal is there.  You have to be brought to recognizing it.  It did not all begin with man.  It was all here before man came into being.  You can't create the correct energy  because you don't know what is needed.  You can have no idea of what would be the “correct” energy or if it will give you the signal you truly need because you have no idea of what that signal is or for sure it is there.    You can certainly create an energy.  Is it the “correct” energy?  Will it take you to the right “signal”?  How can you know  if the energy or the signal are the one's you need?  You have to be bigger than yourself to know this.   They may be the ones you want, but are they the ones need for your soul's progression?  That is assuming that is what you want. 

If you want only that which is of the physical, you may have some things occur that appear to make what you think is true.   I don't honestly know what you mean by paradigim, maybe manner of thinking?   If so, yes, you can do this.  What kept Peter walking on water towards Jesus was not a law of attraction or positive thinking–it was an acceptance.  You don't create, you give in.

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Here is an example, a rather shallow one, but an example nonetheless.  You seek to find your soul mate.  Okay, given no one is really totally in touch with their soul,  you come to the conclusion that she is five foot six, blonde, buxom, and has an IQ of 125.  So, you seek to attract this woman.  One day, you are walking down the street and a woman that fits the bill walks by and smiles.  Then, you learn she has moved in next door to you.  You hit it off and get married, life is sweet. 

However, God knew that there was another woman, one that did not fit the bill of your dreams, but one that could have taught you more about yourself, more about life, than the one you thought fit the bill.  So, the woman you picked, she cheats on you.  You divorce.  You are heartbroken, near the edge of all dispair.  You go to your doctor and a lovely nurse with brown hair and a large frame talks to you in a way that brings you peace, just from the sound of her voice.  You call her the next day and ask her out.  Over time you fall in love and learn that she had admired you from afar even before you married your first wife.  But, you never noticed her or her wonderful voice until you needed her.  Then, you get married, and discover she is going to have your child.  Two weeks later, you two discover she has an inoperable brain tumor and will die before the child is born. 

Had you listened to the still, small voice, you might have heard it tell you to shut up with all your creation stuff and attraction stuff and take the gift that was placed in front of your eyes.  You would never have wasted time with the woman of your attraction and would have discovered the woman that God sat in front of you at your doctor's office in time to have shared many more years with her and to have her give birth to your child–a child that was of your creation, of her creation, and of God's creation.  There are far more mysteries in life than you could ever dream of–Shakespeare (sort of).

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

I meant create the signal within yourself, which is to me synonymous to choosing it.  (I can only hope you believe in choice)  Which would be to connect up with the macro-signal, which is definitely always there, and be one with that signal, and be conscious of… more.  

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Opening,

My comments on this pod are simply my attempt to share my perspective.  My hope is that if something I say resonates in the reader then they might be interested in checking out the “Living in the Truth of the Present Moment” group
http://pods.gaia.com/present_moment

I have no desire to change anyone's mind or persuade anyone that my perspective is any better than theirs. 

Thank you for sharing your perspective with me.  It has been a learning experience.

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Alan and Ricosoma,

I am sorry if I appeared to be attacking your systems of belief or your search.  Your previous postings gave me the impression that part of those beliefs was the thought that it began with you, with your mind, with your consciousness.  I appreciate the idea of the “signal”.  I now get that it is like opening yourself to receiving the big signal.  Like recognizing that you, we all, are like a cord on a lamp.  If we are constantly plugged into the socket, our signal is able to turn on the light. 

Where I find difficulty with this law of attraction or positive thinking ideology is wondering what is goal at the end of it?  Is it to attain a lifestyle or to attain awareness and to live in that awareness?  To me, the ideology, using my lamp analogy, is like continuously turning the light on without first pluggin it in.  Also, in my view, to truly attain enlightenment, there has to be an acceptance that we are not all that there is.  This life, this world, are part of something bigger and greater.  Therefore, we must accept that the “universe”, for me it is God, is going to send us circumstances that we may not desire. 

Attempting to direct one's life so that all that is brought to us is blue skies and a completely peaceful existense void of any suffering, is not only futile, but even if it were possible, would leave us spiritually weak.  It is similiar to recognizing that you cannot have light without the dark, joy without pain. 

My analogy of the perfect woman search ended in what seemed to be a tragic manner.  However, imagine the man's newly found richness in terms of understanding love and loss.  You have to lose to appreciate having.  In everything I have read regarding positive thinking or the law of attraction, the goal seems to end with creating the perfect life.  My point is, we, in our current state on this plane, can't even begin to appreciate what a “perfect life” may be.  Are we reaching for the “American dream” or are we reaching for God, the divinity within us, the glory of the universe in terms of true joy, true wisdom, true oneness?  If we seek to attract  only that which we desire, we are sealing ourselves off and seeking to bring “stuff” to us.  If we seek to bring it to us, then are we not denying it to someone else?  Yes, the universe is abundant and there is no end to its riches.  It is energy and energy is attached to this.  However, there is a difference between bringing it to us, and allowing, accepting what the universe (God) will bring us and trusting that it is what is perfect for us at that time in the space we are currently dwelling as spiritual beings. 

In the Old Testament, which is the Torah and the Koran, the “voice” (God, the intelligence of the Universe) said, “trust in me first and all else will follow” (or something to that effect).   So, go into meditation, set your signal, but give recognition to the fact that that which may follow may be harsh, may not be what you envision as “perfect” life; but, it will be what you need to move to the next step so that when the shade is lifted in front of you, when that what separates our concious, “seeing” from the REAL, is lifted, you will recognize it and be able to take it into your heart. 

If what you receive is difficult, harsh, gives you a sense of loss, or even physcial pain, recognize that if all is eternal, you really have nothing to lose and cannot really be hurt or destroyed (Jesus on the cross), for you are one with the ALL that has always been and always will be. 

I call myself a Christian because I maintain a beleif that Jesus gave voice to that which is Eternal.  Not because I accept some line of thought or teaching delivered by the main stream, but because  I believe he spoke of Truth and gave recognition to that in the manner in which he lived and died.  Peter did not walk on water because the idea of doing so originated in his mind.  He walked on water because he accepted that he was one with the One.  First, he had to become aware of the existence of the One and that he could meld into that.  He had to fall from the surface into the water's depths to recognize that it was his mind that separated him from the One and that his attempt to understand or contain that  was part of that which kept him separated.  Hence, Jesus' response, “Oh yee of little faith”.  By trying to contain it within a thought or to understand it,  direct it, reason it into a neat little package, we wall ourselves off from just being within it.  We are still there, we just cut off the connection, unplug the cord.  The lamp is still in the room, just not able to accept the signal to create light.  Boy, I get pretty long winded. 

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Life is a dream or, as the ancient masters teach, an illusion. And to all the forms in the dream you attribute a function. Therefore, the dream is a happy dream when all the forms function to your liking. The dream is less than happy when the functions are not met. When someone fails to meet the function you have attributed, your dream is unhappy.
Problem is, in our demand that the functions we determine be met, we deny that it is a dream and the functions become real. Let's forget about the functions and look at why we are dreaming. Could it be the dream came from fear and all the functions we attribute to the forms in the dream simply make the dream less fearful but never totally without fear.
Wouldn't it be better is we stopped demanding our functions be met and escape the dream altogether?
No one can fail, but your idea of them. Nothing can succeed but your idea of success. It's interesting that we feel we know how the dream should function when we don't even know why we are dreaming. So in denial, let's just attempt to manipulate the dream to our liking.
But doesn't our manipulation prove it is a dream? Why do we think we know how the objects of the dream should function when we don't even know our own function in the dream? I imagine to undertsand that, we would need to know why we're dreaming in the first place.

Thanks,
mikeS

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Hi Mike, you are definitely becoming more gentle in your approach.

I'd like to respond to something ricosoma mentioned a day or so ago when he said

Everything that is, at it's most fundamental level, is Consciousness.
We, all but a very few, are not in complete control.

I believe one of the greatest snow jobs in this world system is that we are not in control of our destiny.

If as you say everything is Consciousness, then each of us are living as our own individual consciousness.  Nothing exists outside of that consciousness so each of us is projecting our reality as we progress.  We couldn't be more in control.  The catch is our higher nature, that aspect of us that is eternal and incorruptible, is the one with the hand on the tiller.

- an eccentric Aussie

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Sorry Andrew,

There is no such thing as “individual consciousness.”
There is only One Consciousness.

And that consciousness is MINE!

Therefore, if I were you, I'd start being nicer to me,
Otherwise, you may find yourself deleted from consciousness.

Permanently!

(although, I may let you visit from time to time depending on your behavior)

Peace Angel : )
mikeS

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Gee Mike now I'm really scared…

Alan, I'm living a lucid dream right now.  It is called a parenthesis in eternity.

Nothing is impossible to him who believes.

Of course, to him who believes no proof is necessary, to him who does not believe, no proof is possible.

In love and peace,

an eccentric Aussie

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Great discussion!  It's getting difficult keeping up.  Words are such an imprecise means of conveying meaning especially when the context is not a shared one.  But given that words are all we have in this medium I'll do the best I can.  It seems that semantics often get in the way of understanding another.  There is much to respond to since my last visit.

Opening,
While I am aware of the attempts to exploit the LOA for personal gain (a bigger house, a fancy car, a better job)  this is not my approach nor is it what I have been talking about.  It is my experience that I create what I experience according to the thoughts that I entertain in my mind.  This is not something I believe it is something that I have proved true to myself.  While I cannot  “control” the situations that arise moment to moment, I can control what I choose to think about what's happening.  Mike has asserted that this type of control is not possible since we are subject to various sub-conscious tendencies which by their very nature are beyond our control.  I would suggest that once one has developed some real perspective on the mind, through meditation or other disciplines, it is quite possible to become aware of these tendencies as they arise.  The “goal” (give some latitude on this on guys since I am responding in the context of Opening's question) is to realize one's essential unity with all that Is.  Once one develops some perspective it becomes obvious that who we really are is that consciousness that awareness that watches everything.  When one lives from that perspective then whatever happens is perfect there is no need to change anything.  From my perspective none of the scripture that you quote contradicts any of this.

Mike
Of course life is a dream but from whose perspective?  The illusion lies in identifying with the unawakened dreamer.    To awaken from the dream one needs to develop the perspective that one is the one who watches the dream.  You have said before that the philosophy that most resonates with you is Zen.  The Zen state of wu-hsin (no-mind) embodies this perspective.  Mike I am curious and forgive me if this too personal a question, do you have a Zen Master?

Andrew
When I said “We, all but a very few, are not in complete control”, it was in the context of addressing Opening's assertion about control.  To clarify, if one is not in control of what thoughts are entertained in one's mind then one is for the most part on auto-pilot and out of control given the creative nature of thought.   I have no argument with what you say about consciousness except that I would not make the distinction between one's consciousness and one's higher nature (semantics perhaps). 
 

Alan
Your scenario about, why the dream, reminds me of something a great Master once said when questioned about the reason for delusion.  He said God chooses to hide from Himself, in an individual, in order to experience the joy of rediscovering who he really is!

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Ricosoma, nice post!

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Alan,
FYI the “quote” was not from a Zen Master.

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

ricosoma,

Controlling one's thoughts about a situation is different from what I thought you were speaking about.  Yes, this I do believe is true.  It is the belief in controlling what will happen that I do not think is correct.

Alan,

You said that suffering is not necessary to spiritual growth.  I don't think it is necessary either.  What I meant is that we are not able to determine what is necessary. This would require an ability to properly judge ourselves.  We can't do this with any wisdom attached to it.  We are like children in terms of our ability to see and know what it is that we need to progress.  So, if what we need is something that will cause us to “suffer”, that will be given to us.  There could be some people that don't need to experience suffering to grow.  In the Bible it talks of how God will provide difficulties to refine us in His light.

If you are saying that “suffering” is all in how we view something when it is happening, there are times when it would be difficult for any human to remove him or herself from making a judgement about what is happening.  I am talking about the death of a loved one, chronic physical pain, loss of all financial stability, etc.  Sitting back as an impartial observer is just not possible in all circumstances because we are human.  By our natures, we are going to “feel” something about tragic and frightening events.  This is when we get back to what Riscosoma was talking about, how we view these things.  Still, I have to ask, what is the goal?  What is it that “we” are seeking?  Or, are we not seeking anything other than awareness, to attune that?  Is it a love of ourselves that pushes us towards this or a desire for God, or for fulfillment?  Or, nothing at all–just a “being”?  At some point, all of this “thought” relates to living.  It goes outside of the mind into day to day existence, traffic jams, illness, loss, job security.  This is what Jesus demonstrated. 

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

God is in all of us.

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Yes, but we are not God and do not have the capacity to know or understand all that is God.  Let's say that God is like the ocean and that each of us is a drop of water within that ocean.  You can remove a drop of water and it will retain all of the characteristics of the ocean.  You can put that drop back in and will not be able to discern it from the rest of the ocean.  But, that drop cannot dictate the tides and the flow of the water.  It cannot orchestrate when the tide will go out and when it will come in.  It does not call up storms and the winds that dash ships against the shore.  It is merely one aspect of the greater whole.  But, more true than this, God is the wind, the storm, the shore, the sky, the stars, the sun, the heat, the cold, the whole, the All.  While we are still only one drop within the ocean of the All unable to perceive our own beginning and end, nonetheless that of eternity. 

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Any drop of water that could read the tide, for example, may have a completely different orientation to the water itself than one who refuses to see the water, or understand that they are water in water.   A thing that knows its nature is not like a thing that does not know its nature.  the thing that knows not its nature is conflicted: unable to be itself.  

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Well, I guess we just aren't going to agree on this.  I maintain that it is not possible for man to know his nature completely, he can seek to know it and become more aware, but can never know it completely because he cannot become an objective observer.  It isn't in his nature.  Further, man cannot know the complete nature of the universe or fully appreciate the results of each action and/or thought,.  He lacks the capacity to form the thoughts that would even allow him to see it, nonetheless comprehend it.  The nature of a thing is the nature of a thing.  This can change and evolve, but it will still remain fundamentally the same.  I guess you are saying man can direct his own evolution.  Maybe so, but sitting here today, he cannot control the impact of that which he chooses to move towards and the implications on human history, what would have been if this or that had been done or not done.  Only an omnipotent being can do this and man is not omnipotent and cannot create this as a reality, a true Reality for himself.  But, he can choose to believe that he is. At least until the day he really comes to believe that, not only does he control his thoughts and his beliefs, but he controls the nature of all things as well.  To the point that he stands in the middle of a street with a bus hurdling towards him and says, the bus is not there, or I am not here, and then the bus flattens him.  God could have lifted the bus or changed its course.  The man could not.

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

why isn't the bus there?  from the man's perspective, I mean.  I don't follow your logic.

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

They do indeed go that way at times.

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

such an intricate and intriguing discussion, wish i had time to do it justice by responding to everyone…

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

yep, they're really mixing it up, eh Nicole?  making for great reading :D

i hope it doesn't break up the action, but something particular Opening said jumped out at me:  'man cannot know the complete nature of the universe or fully appreciate the results of each action and/or thought'  

i think this is absolutely true.  if it is, it should then be very difficult to completely dismiss nearly any possibility. 

i find it fascinating how quickly we (humankind) seem to be learning and becoming aware of new aspects to the nature of God's universe and the results of actions and thoughts.  historically, such discoveries have led to ever greater levels of 'control' over an ever larger part of our world (leaving alone for now any judgements of how that control has been used - or misused).  since i don't pretend to know much, i feel well poised to enjoy experiencing whatever becomes of it :D

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Joshua,

I like you don't know much of what I know.  However, one thing I am aware of, from a variety of experiences, is that there is a link between my physical self, my spiritual self, and the Intelligence that is God.  These  have shown me that I am not in control of very much except that which originates in me.  I don't deny that the control we can and should exhibit over our thoughts does effect our lives and our experiences.  I call this Faith.  This means, that the control I experience links me to God.  It does not end with me.  It begins with me.  Well, really, it began with God and I only open myself up to an awareness of my ability to tie into this and bring it forward in my mind (hence the name Opening.)

All that Alan and Riscosoma have said I beleive is true but I don't think it fully explains our existence and purpose.  It does not delve into purpose or intent other than to improve that which each individual man experiences.  But, to fully appreciate the human experience, there is going to be the good and the bad.  We all have to make the decision in the physical to serve each other with as much vigor and love as we pull into our own lives. 

One man's thought regarding what is for his own good, could bring the opposite to another.  Who decides which man's “will” wins out?  Two men want the same job.  Both are trying to bring it into the Now.  Both men are equally deserving and both equally need it.  As we cannot know the ALL at any given moment, we cannot attune ourselves to the point that we know which to bring about that would serve what is best for both.   Does it depend on which man's will is stronger?  That just takes the battles we expeirence in the physical into the spiritual.  Maybe they are already there.  This is one of the things I don't Know. 

So, when I plug in, I pray for that which I would like to see happen for me.  I am also going to seek guidance as to how I can bring it about; but, in the end, I request that God in all His Wisdom, brings me what He wants for me.  The difference in the two views is one of submission.  I submit to His will whether I like the outcome or not, because He knows what is best for me.  I am here to serve Him, not myself.  With each choice that I may have made, there may have been a better outcome for my soul, spirit, growth, that would have been manifested through God, not me. 

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Opening, I'm so glad we agree so much!

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

Fate? what happened to 'attraction'? “Fate' by its very nature assumes a reality outside your control. I thought you were an LOA advocate, Alan?

is there an assumption that anyone here disagrees with the fundamental need for that which is often called submission?  

Ah, yes, submit or surrender. I imagine submission prediposes us to weakness because it requires we submit to a power greater than us. There is always a power greater than and beyond our puny self and if we could only surrender to that beyondness, that strength of which we lack, that greatness out there, above, in the heavens, the universe, etc, etc, etc. ideologies such as this are the starting point of religions which inadvertently belittle and infantilize the very populations that the ideology seeks to lift up. “God is great” and there are always those who partake of that greatness while the rest of us are resigned to puny, powerless automatons. Beware of the 'special' ones!

Submit to no one or no thing. the only surrendering that need occur is the surrender of the idolizing of anything greater or more than YOU. Time for a new religion that lifts man up upon himself and requires no greater than, or more than, source of strength than the power we have, but negate, in our constant self-abnegation.

Peace Angels,
mikeS

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

yes, this is the issue I have with the word submission.  Exactly this– it strikes a bad chord with people.  

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

It's interesting how this recent back and forth has gone from what appeared to be significant disagreement to significant agreement.  As I said before most of the problem has to do with semantics and the different context of each of our lives.  That said I'd like to elaborate on a few points.

The principles we have been discussing have been around for millennia it is the ignorance of these principles by the vast majority of humanity that is the cause of the pain and suffering we see in the world today.  But, what is sublimely ironic is that it is all this pain and suffering that motivates people to seek out the cause and a remedy .

The only fully effective remedy that I have discovered is to endeavor to discover one's true Identity, one's true Self.  When I embarked on this quest it became evident after a while that my 2 greatest “foes” were the ego and the mind.  To avoid any semantic dissonance let me define my terms.  By the ego (ahamkara in sanskrit) I mean that aspect of the individual whose primary attribute is the tendency to take ownership of everything that happens in the individual's life.  It is at the root of the sense of doership.  By the mind I mean the mechanically thinking mind (manas in sanskrit).  I am not referring to the term mind as utilized in Buddhist philosophy. 

After one develops the ability to see these two aspects for what they are (the source of one's difficulties in life) a perspective is established that allows one to experience life as it really is not how one thinks it is.  Once one identifies with this Awareness not one's thoughts the ability to really be of service is optimized.  These are the reasons for being here, Self knowledge and service.  All the Great Ones have taught this.

The major shortcoming of the LOA as popularized in recent times is that using the ability to control what one thinks in order to attractive a “better” life as conceived by the individual sells one short.  The life that one attracts by simply choosing not to entertain “negative” thoughts without creating more positive ones is far better than anything one can possibly imagine. 

Perhaps some of the problem the Christian contributors to this discussion have with some of what I say derives from the fact that I hesitate to use the word God.  I do so because it is such an intimate term that too often one's concept of what God is gets in the way of the discourse.  Of course the individual is not the Totality.  Of course the mind (see above) cannot comprehend the Infinite.  Realizing that one is part and parcel of the great Ocean of Consciousness is paramount.

Expecting the Infinite Omnipotent Omnipresence that is all that IS to move the oncoming bus when we could just as easily step out of the way is folly. 

   



 

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

One other thing that Mike's post reminded me of;

The only thing that needs to be surpressed are the tendencies of the ego.  Once this is accomplished their is no sense of individual to submit to anything.  Since submission implies duality.

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

: ) haha!  It's funny and beautiful to see you describe in a sentence what I tried to describe in paragraphs with mediocre success.  : )

Re: The ego and the self-reflecting world

I do not attempt to describe or define God. In any attempt to do so, I would be placing limits on something I don't even begin to pretend to understand, I just accept it.  I choose to submit to the existence and the will of God.  This does not mean I do not exert my own will in some manner in the process.  I ate breakfast this morning for instance.  

God has been shown to be a Reality to me through numerous experiences.  God is a being of more power and magnatude than myself.  So,  I cannot just say, oh, there is nothing bigger than me and nothing for which I should or can submit myself to beyond my own will.  I Know that this is not true.  So, it isn't an option for me. 

For others, that have not experienced this, experienced God as a tangible reality, then, maybe they can do it and it can be true inside of their own minds; but, that does not make it true in the All of Being.  Again, you cannot negate the truth of something by choosing to say it doesn't exist.  That gets you back in front of that bus and saying to yourself, only that which I conceive is real and has any meaning to my being.  It is like telling folks, you will be well if you think you are well.  Just don't agree to the existence of that cancer in your body, or that you were beaten as a child, or raped.  Hey, if you don't believe in anything beyond you, there is nothing beyond you.  This can cause great harm to people.  At some point, I just gotta say, get real.  Then, you again say, what is Real?  Okay, again, get back in front of that bus. 

As far as postive and negative thoughts, yes, I agree your life is changed by your thoughts.  Yet, you are still making a judgment call in that you are determining what is positive and what is negative and attaching emotion to that experience.  To me, submission is saying, that whatever comes my way is from God and is to serve me in some manner, and I accept it and seek to discover its purpose and may find mine along the way and in the end serve God.

To say that a new religion should begin that negates the existence of a God is a contradiction.  I frankly don't believe religion plays a role in any of it.  God doesn't need religion.  He is.  Remember “that which I am, I am?”  (or, something to that effect.)

Of course, asking God to move the bus is folly when one can just step out of the way.  I was talking about the nature of reality, not common sense.  It is a matter of God's will if the bus will be moved because I did not see it in time to step out of the way.  It is the nature of His purpose for me, if He determines that the bus should not flatten me and end my existence in this form at that point.  I can sit in a box and deny that there is anything outside of my box all I want.  However, that does not mean that nothing is outside of the box. 

What you don't seem to realize is that everything that you are talking about in terms of, I am all of my all, and there is nothing greater than me, was once entertained by another once called Beelzebub.  The truth of Beelzebub's once being a beautiful angel maybe a myth meant to control human behavior, or the description of a Truth, that has persisted for what, how many thousands of years?  But, then, all, or most of mankind has been living under this illusion or delusion of all that is and all that can be when all they had to do is understand that there was nothing beyond their own consciousness to understand there is no right or wrong, no dark no light, it just is what our minds choose to make of it.  Here is something profound for you–baloney.