Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

http://portail.islamboutique.fr/gaza2008/

Re: Pictures from Gaza

brutally heartbreaking yos. thx. for posting them…….

Re: Pictures from Gaza

WARNING– THE PICTURES ON THE ABOVE LINK ARE EXTREMELY GRAPHIC AND DISTRESSING IN NATURE.

PLEASE IF YOU ARE AT ALL SENSITIVE WHERE CHILDREN ARE CONCERNED PLEASE DO NOT OPEN THE LINK.

SIONA HAS BEEN INFORMED AND IS TRYING TO CONTACT A MOD TO REMOVE THE ABOVE LINK

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Thank you, Andrew & andrew, for the thoughts and the warning.

And to clarify: I don't believe, personally, that these photos need necessarily be censored nor removed–they're a picture of what's going on in the world today and I don't believe (though I could be wrong!) that they've been posted gratuitiously.  However, they are graphic and disturbing and heart-breaking, and I do think it's important to post a warning with the link.

(I'll confess I'm not an active member of this group and don't know the policies and guidelines here.  If the mods feel otherwise–that this post is inflamatory or designed to stir anger and antagonism rather than concern and peace–they'll of course have the right to remove it.)

Re: Pictures from Gaza

My vote is that the link remain and NOT be removed. In fact, it should be posted in all the pods.

mikeS

Re: Pictures from Gaza

BTW Aussieman,

It's interesting that you are requesting the link be removed (correct me if i misinterpret). I thought you were against “blocking”?

Or, are there some contexts in which censorship is advised?

I am suprised the idea entered your “realm of consciousness.”

Peace Angel : )

mikeS

Re: Pictures from Gaza

You're not trying to provoke me are you Mike??? Tut tut tut…

I had no idea what Gaia's policy was regarding images of mutilated bodies of children.

When I came across the link I contacted Siona who replied she would notify the moderators of this pod.  (I didn't think there was a mod online otherwise that would have been my first contact, out of courtesy.)

I understood that to mean that she was going to ask you to remove it,

When I saw it was still there 50 minutes later I didn't know what to think but felt a warning regarding the content was appropriate.

I'd be happy if you would remove my comment regarding Sionas intentions.

When I saw Sionas comment it was too late to edit  my comment.

I believe the warning should remain but I recognise that is your call not mine.

I have no opinion as to the appropriateness of the material but just because it is available on the net doesn't mean it has to be pushed covertly into peoples faces.

an eccentric Aussie

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Provocateur? Me!?

Actually, I agree the warning was justified and probably should have been attached to the link by the originator (so how does one push “covertly”?)

Anyway, I don't necessarily believe it is my 'call' (although I gave my opinion). This pod is very liberal in terms of rules and limits (that's why I enjoy being member) and allows for discussions to run the spectrum.

Siona posted,  If the mods feel otherwise-that this post is inflamatory or designed to stir anger and antagonism rather than concern and peace-they'll of course have the right to remove it.)

Well, no doubt the images will inflame emotions and the author of the link does not indicate his/her reason for the posting (which would have been helpful) so I am not sure of the purpose behind the link. Was the author simply attempting to exhibit the horrors of war or the brutality perpetrated by the Israeli's, or both. It seems to me that there is no doubt that the images will “stir anger and antagonsim” in most people.

Therefore, the question is, what other choices do we have? Siona mentions “concern and peace.” Is it possible to experience both antagonsim/anger and peace/concern?

Of course, if your child was obliterated into body parts, I imagine peace would be the last thing on your mind. The heritage of hate has been sowed in so many ways for so many centuries it seems there is no way of that train until the train finally crashes taking us all with it. Seems to me there is no other way off except to crash.

peace is a useless concept and an impossible endeavor and we will never see it in our lifetime or in any lifetime (hows that for provocation?).

Peace Angels,
mikeS

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Yosyama, thank you for posting the link. This is a heartbreaking situation, as andrew says.

Andrew, thanks for adding the warning in the only way you could (since you are not yet a moderator here, so that those who are sensitive don't acciddentally stumble on it.

Siona, thanks for dropping by to clarify your thoughts, and at the same time leaving the group the freedom to take its own path.

Mike, thanks for supporting attaching a warning to the link.

To all my mods:

Please feel free to tag the originating email with disturbing images links with warnings if you see this sort of thing before me. I usually visit here only in the mornings and don't get notifications sent to me, so don't see these messages till I “arrive”

We have children and young people who are members of this pod, and who visit Gaia, as well as older people who are sensitive to disturbing pictures.

Everyone:

I ask you all please to be mindful of the sensitivities of others as you post, while continuing to discuss widely and deeply.

Ok! Carry on,

Love,

Nicole

Re: Pictures from Gaza

I'm glad you're not cynical Mike.

I seriously didn't mean anything by the “your call” comment other than it was your decision what you did with it.

If the link had been put in the Misunderstood? pod I would have removed it and  messaged the person who had posted it asking why it was put there.  If it had some legitimate purpose I'd let him repost on the condition there was an explanation and a warning re the content.

I recognised immediately when I saw the link what it would contain Mike but links on this site normally lead to websites that are family friendly as far as images go.

I used the word covert because it wouldn't be unreasonable for a parent to allow their children access to Gaia.com.

If links to images such as those in the above link are going to start cropping up it will signal Gaia.com as adults only, and somehow I think that would miss the point of what its about.

Just my humble opinion

an eccentric Aussie

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Hi Andrew,

Yosyama is a friend of mine, someone I have known from back when Gaia was Zaadz over two years ago. Even had I not known him, my tendency in life in general and as the cultivator of this pod is to give people the benefit of the doubt in terms of their intent in posting.

The warning in the subject line is appropriate and very much advised, given the shocking nature of the images. But this site already has a number of “adult” areas, so it's not a question of what it's becoming, rather that it is up to all of us in pods like this that are meant to be for all in scope to be clear if some content is not for all to see.

Love,

Nicole

Re: Pictures from Gaza

The difficulty is how resolve the impasse when each side wants the other to back down first

No Gaza exit strategy

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Hi Nicole,

I wasn't taking you to task, I don't know the person and am not judging their motives but I do know something about the site and it would have been on that basis that I would remove it until the purpose for putting it there was also made clear for anyone that was going to follow the link, to make an informed decision first.

In the interests of peace

Andrew

Re: Pictures from Gaza

I understand, Andrew, and didn't feel taken to task at all.

What I notice about the many pods I have been in is how differently they can be run, depending on the cultivator.Long live diversity!

Hugs,

Nicole

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Andrew,

“…somehow I think that would miss the point of what its about.”

There ya go again…provoking me!

Nevertheless, when I started to consider what exactly Gaia is about, I realized I had no clear and concise concept to go by. So I shuffled over to the “Our Mission!” page and learned what Gaia is about:

Our reason for being is the same as yours: to discover and realize that which we're truly meant to become, and, in doing so, to encourage and inspire others to do the same.

Rather abstract, but hey, life is an abstraction, and a rather unconscionable one at that. Yet, is not tragic death and destruction a part of our “becoming”?

It's interesting that we would seek to shelter our children from this part of reality. Possibly, allowing children to view images of war and violence at an early age might override the destructive teachings they will receive in their education which tends to promote self-interest and, hence, war.

Seeing the results of war, might build a better foundation for demanding peace in young minds that have not yet been conditioned by the mind-numbing and rather fascist 'educational system.' Why is it that so many grow up, year after year, to participate in war and justify that participation through vapid nationalistic slogans?

Maybe children should see what we have done as soon as they are able so that they can learn to go in the opposite direction.

What do you think?

Peace Angels,
mikeS

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Hi Mike,

Perhaps! But it's not just about the children. Some are very sensitive, and seeing those kinds of images does not help them at all. It's more about giving choices - having been warned, people can still choose to view the content.

Love,

Nicole

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Mike if images of war would have the effect you suggest why is it that the conflict in the Middle East is still going on?

It is over 60 years, I think that translates to 3 generations yet it is getting worse not better.

Arab TV stations don't censor death like we do in the West.

Re: Pictures from Gaza

That's a good point, Andrew. In fact, I believe it could more readily be argued that too much exposure to graphic violence leads to overwhelm, desensitisation and apathy.

Love,

Nicole

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Andrew presented the answer in the final line of his previous post.

Of course, images of war desensitize children to violence… IN THE WEST. This allows conscience immunity and this is the desensitization what a western conventional education provides.

War is a financial proposition and we need to surrender our tired old ideas of opposing agressors. HA!

It is the richest nations of the west that finance wars. Israel is dropping millions of dollars worth of armaments upon gaza, financed by western banks (cheifly the good 'ole U.S. of A.).

Obviously, those experiencing the horrors first hand will perpetuate the horrors in vengeance. Therefore, it might be too late. However, if we can teach our children that war financing is wrong then possibly there will be an end to it and they will seek another means.

My hypothetical suggestion was that images presented to children prior to western capitalistic educational brainwashing might be effective in turning them away from violence. Note that this would require the teaching of peace in tandem with images (think of “Clockwork Orange,” but in a more peaceful manner). If I were to show my daughters these images with the intent of teaching them to pursue a different path than that presented by conventional western education, the impact might not be lost and the ability to override the system may remain intact. Unfortunately, at age 13, they have experienced such a competitive and violent educational system that I fear it would have little effect. Desensitization is purely a western phenomenon.

I'm not so sure protecting children from the truth is beneficial particularly if we wish the truth be different. I feel my suggestion is worth considering only because we are heading to an assured mutual destruction anyway. Either we learn to dramatically change course now, or soon it really won't matter what images anybody views, because we may all be viewing it first hand, my children and yours.

But then, I'm just saying….

Peace Angels : )
mikeS

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Desensitization is purely a western phenomenon.

Mike your an expert in the field, I'm not.  Are you serious?

BTW the money for the Israeli war effort comes from Jewish comtributors, very wealthy Jewish businessmen.

I've often wondered why the extrordinarily rich Arab nations around about haven't offered to repatriate the Arabs in the Gaza strip.

In the interests of peace.

an eccentric Aussie

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Andrew,

BTW the money for the Israeli war effort comes from Jewish comtributors, very wealthy Jewish businessmen.

You're kidding right?

On Average the U.S. Gave More Than 6.8 million to Israel EACH DAY in 2007.

“Israel receives about $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year, which is roughly one-fifth of America's entire foreign aid budget. In per capita terms, the United States gives each Israeli a direct subsidy worth about $500 per year. This largesse is especially striking when one realizes that Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to South Korea or Spain.”
U.S. aid to Israel is the lowest it has been since 1981 due to the fact that we have slowly been phasing out economic aid to Israel and gradually replacing it with increased military aid. Within several years, military aid to Israel will have reached $3.1 billion each year (or an average of $8.49 million a day). Thus, U.S. tax dollars are subsidizing one of the most powerful foreign militaries. According to the CRS report, current U.S. military aid, “grants to Israel represent over 20% of the overall Israeli defense budget.”

Peace Angels,
mikeS

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Sorry Mike you were 20% correct to the best of my research.

80% of Israels defense budged is self funded.

The rest is made up in foreign aide, the lions share of which comes from the US.

I'm still intrigued by your comment that

Desensitization is purely a western phenomenon.

Could you elaborate please?

Re: Pictures from Gaza

“self-funded”?

So when I give you $2.50 to buy a big mac, you deposit that $2.50 in your bank account and then withdraw it before your trip to McDonalds so you call your purchase “self-funded.” Contrary to your “research” I believe the stats I linked to speaks volumes.

It's an interconnected global economy and money (numbers on a computer screen) for bombs is dirty money and ALL our hands our filthy. We may wish to place blame, but we are all participants, no matter how hard we engage denial in order to be free of culpability.

But then, we are, conveniently, not AWARE of what we DO. Of course, that is, until someone posts pictures of our culpability and then we gasp in horror and scream “how could they!” But we will fight to protect our innocense and proclaim that our hands are clean. Note, however, that violent massacres, and mass deaths due to disease, have been occurring like clockwork throughout the 20th century. Where have we been? What have my tax dollars been used for?

The only thing we have ever learned from history is that it must be repeated and so we repeat it, compulsively!

As such, desensitization is a western phenomenon and it would seem as if we demand it because it has allowed us to so easily turn away. Maybe this is why so many turn to eastern philosophies and religions as more pure and austere in promoting peace and love. Yet, even these eastern countries, as they adopt western ideas, begin to dumb down the masses.

Desensitization minimizes and redirects attention. Western capitalist societies do this easily as capitalism demands self-perpetuation and value is accrued through monetary scales of value. When individual monetary wealth is your raison d' etre, or reason for being, what else need you be concerned with? It's all about taking care of ourselves, right?

Oh sure, we will provide 'lip-service' to peace and support our favorite charity, but deep down we see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil. Therefore, in our tiny little enclaves of indifference, we claim WE are free of evil. HA!

It would seem to me that until every single solitary individual (I include myself) accepts responsibility for the death of children in Gaza (or anywhere else for that matter) the killing can only continue.
 
Of course, we will resist this responsibility with all our might because, ya know, American Idol's new season is coming! YEA!!

Peace Angels,
mikeS

Re: Pictures from Gaza

At the fundamental level I believe you are entirely correct Mike.

I think Steve Biddolph hit the nail on the head when he said

“Every man is a father to every child.”

But you're reacting to this material exactly the way certain anti-Semite organisations want you to react.  You don't seem to recognise who the aggresor is.

That is why I was concerned with the link.  The organisation associated with it is radical and extreme.

Since the British handed over controll of Israel to the Jews in 1948, any act of war by Israel has been in defense of an attack on it's borders. It has expanded it's borders in retaliation against its attackers as it has pushed them back.

The Arab countries vowed 60 years ago it would push all the Jews into the sea, along with any Arabs that chose to live in Jewish ruled Israel.

The Jews are fighting for their right to exist, for survival.  The Arabs don't have to continue this act of aggression.  They don't need the land and they have unimaginable wealth.

It is a war of hate on one side and of survival on the other.

In the interests of understanding

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Andrew,

But you're reacting to this material exactly the way certain anti-Semite organisations want you to react.  You don't seem to recognise who the aggresor is.

YOU are the aggressor. You and me, everyone posting here and everyone worldwide. Until we accept this responsibility we will continue to divide and separate through our need to blame.

Actually, contrary to your accusation, I'm not picking sides. I'm saying we are ALL to blame. Indifference is merely another form of attack.

The “fundamental level” you agree with, is where the cure to our diease will be found. Surrender the details for the big picture, because the devil is always in the details, while the peace of God is in the whole.

The organisation associated with it is radical and extreme.

I see you picked a side for which to rally round.

The Arab countries vowed 60 years ago it would push all the Jews into the sea, along with any Arabs that chose to live in Jewish ruled Israel.

And there is the fundamental error which obstructs peace…”history.”

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? No one knows conslusively, but we are willing to die to assert our belief about it (comparatively speaking).

60 years?! HA!

Not far back enough.

Try going back to the Big Bang or at least, to the time when man gave up four legs for two.

We're gonna have to think outside our self-protective 'box' or we will merely repeat the same thinking that got us here, bro.

Peace Angels,
mikeS

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Mike I made a study of the circumstances surrounding the setting up of the current state of Israel.

Israel is anathema to the surrounding Arab states.  Why do they keep attacking it? Because they hate it's very existence.

I may be wrong but I think Egypt is the only Arab country to have diplomatic relations with Israel, and has been roundly condemned by other Arab countries for asking both Hamas and Israel to exercise restraint.

Mike to condemn Israel for defending itself is like blaming both the Nazi's and the Jews for the concentration camps.

If you want to do a comparison I find images of piles of childrens clothes and shoes of victims of the gas chambers as horrific if not more so than the images in the above link.

Systematic extermination compared to innocent victims of self defence retaliation for Hamas's rockets.

The UN agreed to the annexation (I think that is the right word) of Israel for the Jews as a result of the attempted extermination of the Jews in the holocaust.  The world community recognised the Jews were a nation without a country and gave them Israel.

The Arabs that were living there were asked to remain and those that did have enjoyed the same rights as Jews ever since.

Keep in mind the Arabs don't just want the land they want to exterminate the Jews and Israeli Arabs at the same time.

It's time the Arab nations got over it.

In the interest of peace and understanding

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Mike to condemn Israel for defending itself is like blaming both the Nazi's and the Jews for the concentration camps.

I am not condemning anyone and I'm curious as to where you read that in my posts.

Of course, “defense,' or more specifically, self-protection, whether a nation-state or a solitary human being, is certainly a paradigm we cherish and thus maintain. Therefore, in the name of 'defense' ALL is justified!

It's time the Arab nations got over it.

Oops! So it's their fault. Then it looks like they're getting what they deserve, eh?

Peace Angels,
mikeS

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Mike I'm trying to understand your logic.

Any death under any circumstances is a tragedy, particularly children.

It is retaliatory fire that has killed those children.

Or would you deny Israel the right to defend itself?

I think it is entirely relevant not only who started this episode of aggression but to ask why does Hammas continue to fire rockets into Israel.

You're the expert what is the correct term for suicidal/homicidal martyrdom that the extremists know will lead to innocent deaths?

Peace

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Sorry my friend, contrary to your need to hoist the burden of “expertise” upon my head, I must protest.

I am expert of nothing but my own ignorance and my need to absolve it by questioning everything, and providing tentative inconclusive answers so that I, and others, can question further, and so on and so on and so on….infinitely

Logic? Do you really believe that man's inhumanity to man is based on some kind of reason or logic?

So here's a  question.

It seems clear to me that the vehemence and incredulity expressed by most of the commentors in this thread revolve around one central issue - children. But let's be more specific. What about the death of children demands our anger and condemnation. 

Innocense.

If the images linked to displayed only adult civilians, men and women, would we be so incensed? Sure we would be angry, but to the point of nausea, as one poster commented? Reread the posts and see for yourself the degree of horror expressed about innocent children being slaughtered.

Why is that?

The answer is clear and simple. We perceive that children are innocent. The fact is, deep down we all sense how incredibly guilty we are for the way the world is and the way we treat each other and only children are afforded any degree of reprieve from that blanket indictment.

Of course, many of these children in the pictures, staring down at their dead and mangled siblings, may one day grow up to blow themselves up in crowded marketplaces and we will complain loudly if their suicidal vengeance takes more “innocent children.”

So at what age does the blanket indictment of guilt appear for every man and women? When do we lose, no matter what we have done or not done, our innocense? Is there an age requirment? Will there ever come a time when we can once again ALL be innocent? Does that innocense demand we do, or not do, something in order to prove our innocense? When will we ALL be children (again?).

I would suggest that in your studies of conflict, whether it be in the middle east or in your own house, you go deeper than what history or, more specifically, your senses inform you is the “logical”  truth.

I'll Meet You There, Bro!
mikeS

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Mike this is a conversation that isn't going to achieve a positive result.

I know your desire is the same as mine… a world that our children can enjoy freedom from the constraints of hatred, bitterness and war.

Your approach and mine are different.

I respect your opinion and I believe at the grassroots level we are entirely in agreement.

May I suggest we agree to disagree, as friends and brothers.

One thing is for sure, nothing that has been tried yet has worked to bring about an end to the Middle East conflict.

Forgiveness on both sides will be a necessary ingredient if peace is to be achieved.

What say you… move on?

In the interests of peace

Andrew

Re: Pictures from Gaza

mike S: Just to clarify, I meant designed “stir anger and antagonism” between or among members of Gaia. I'm not one of those who believes outrage is never justified or that there's not value to be found in anger and sadness. What I am firm about is how this site and this space is used–our guidelines ask that people post with an atittude of respect for other members.

So it's one thing to post a topic with the desire to raise awareness and concern, and another to post something hoping to see people fight about it or to react with fear. The latter, to mind mind, just contributes to disharmony and really serves no one, while the former can help manifest a container in which outrage and anger can be transmuted into something meaningful–a force for positivity rather than more war.

I hope that helps, and I apologize for not being clearer before.

Re: Pictures from Gaza

Thanks, Siona, that's very helpful.

Mike, like Andrew, I'm puzzled - only Western people are desensitised? I didn't know that.

Peace,

Nicole

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

I would say for western people usually it is sanitised, yes the pictures here are graphic and enough to make any sane person realise the abomination and stupidity of war, but they are not accompanied by the heart rending cries, the gut wrenching stench of burnt human flesh and blood. My heart goes out for those trying to help so many with so little rescources.
Meanwhile rich countries get more by selling arms to feed this war, we should be working on stopping the sources supplying this war..Arms are a significant source of income for many countries, including Israel, we need global talks to look at human rights, war crimes, and substituting alternative incomes to replace arms sales.

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

I did not heed the warning, and my poor pregnant body revolted!  I got sick all over my desk at work!!!!  This is completely outrageous!  Anyone who kills a child should instantaneously implode into nothingness!

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

     It is after 7:00 p.m.and the link is still here. I believe that the link is disturbing but it may 

It is 7:00 p.m. and the link is still here. I believe that the link is disturbing but it may be disturbing enough to cause people to come out of their comfortable little world and see what is happening elsewhere.

     Who knows, it may cause some people to act. It is a good idea to have a warning but everyone I have encountered on this pod seems mature enough to decide for themselves whether or not to view them. Catastrophic death is always hard to take. It's also hard to fathom without actually seeing it in real terms while knowing they are real & not merely something concocted in Hollywood.

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

Andrew, Mike, Zephyr, JoAnna, Mr:

Andrew: it's not as easy of “repatriating” “Arabs”. This is their home, before it was home for the Israelis (who are claiming more and more land as time goes by), and they want to stay.

Mike, those statistics about the US and Israel aid are mind-boggling.

Zephyr, Mike's stats are a good indication of the problem to which you refer! Good point too about images versus living in the horrific reality.

JoAnna, I can very much understand how upsetting it would be to see those pictures while you yourself are carrying a baby.

Mr, - you're right, I do not intend to remove the link as disturbing as the images are. Let's hope we never get used to the fact that such things happen in the world, and not only in the Middle East.

Peace,

Nicole

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

There are two sides of the gun and posting photo's of the barrel side does not properly reflect the conflict and I feel further feeds the misunderstanding of the underlining reasons for killing ourselves in the first place.  As an American Jew I'm saddened by my fellow tribe members desire to kill each other.  But photo's and judgments built from fear and shock do nothing but further move ourselves away from finding peace.  I'm not here to defend Israel or even justify killing of any kind.  Personally I'd drop books not bombs.  But we all need to remember the Internet has provided all of us with the amazing ability to further propaganda, misinformation, bias and truth.  We all need to be conscience of our intentions and the intentions of the poster.   

Also I did not view the photo's and I thank you much for the warning.  I have seen enough death and destruction to know the cost of war and feel it only hurts my heart and does nothing to change things other then further divide ourselves as a people.

How about photos of smiling Palestinian and Jewish children?  How about the farms that tore down fences and taught each other to grow food?  How about couples holding hands and friends gathering?  Yes, that stuff does go on in the Middle East. And the world needs to understand that like everybody everywhere we have love and understanding, we dream of getting together and breaking bread.  Not all of us want to drive each other into the sea and fire.  If we put our energy into the peace movement that is there instead of shock photo's maybe just maybe we'd see just how closely related we all are and just how senseless dropping bombs, rockets and photo's of destruction are.  We only move further away…. And it makes me sad.
          Besos and thanks.
                          UA

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

It is deplorable that the extremists get all the attention while the peacemakers are ignored.

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

So true!

But if there were no “extremists,” what need for “peacemakers”?
A symbotic relationship? If we did away with peacemakers, would the extremists… disappear?

Just thinking out loud…

mikeS

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

Mike - I was resisting responding to this thread.  I'm glad the link was posted and I'm glad it remains, but its your comment that made me finally respond.

Please continue thinking out loud.  I've had thoughts like that. 

Arnold Mindell has some interesting theories along those lines.  His view is that their are certain roles that need to be filled in any social situation in order to create balance… something like archetypes on the social level.  Usually, these roles are played unconsciously and we tend project onto others the roles that we disidentify.

Mindell believes all roles must be voiced but doing so consciously is the trick for getting out of the trap of social roles.  Ultimately, the best position is the ability to take on and understand multiple roles.  Sometimes this means playing the role that no one wants to play because its the only way to move the group process forward.

My personal observations have been of the people in society who are less-than-desirable.  I spend a lot of time downtown and have over the years become familiar with the homeless population.  I have a feeling that such people fill a required role of society.  They represent something that must be voiced. 

If the homeless people all were driven out of the city (or given homes), there would be a void that would have to be filled.  Either new homeless people would appear or that role would have to be filled in another way.  In some societies, this role may be taken up by religious ascetics even or possibly a whole social class such as India's Untouchables.

Your take is a bit different.  You suggest that maybe if one role were unrepresented, then the other wouldn't need to be represented either.  Interesting thought.  I suspect it wouldn't work that way though.  I think that if one role wasn't represented, then other roles would over-compensate.

Ben

mindell

http://www.aamindell.net/
http://www.aamindell.net/publications-books.htm
http://www.amazon.com/Sitting-Fire-Transformation-Conflict-Diversity/dp/1887078002

Sitting in the Fire is interesting for its discussion of hidden roles in conflict mediation process.

also recomend
Marshall B Rosenberg's
Non-Violent Communication

-w

Re: mindell

Thanks for the links.  I always like links.  I usually offer them myself, but I didn't know if anyone was interested in pursuing that line of thought.

Mindell has some interesting views about conflict resolution.  He deserves a whole thread to himself, but it does bring an interesting perspective to this discussion.

Marmalade

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

UA I for one am grateful for your contribution to this discussion.

“Compassion will cure more sins than condemnation.” Henry Ward Beecher.

While is was a cop I had to deal with many situations I prefer not to elaborate on.  However one that sticks in my mind was a head on between 2 school buses, 1 full the other empty.  I think it was almost 9 children taken to the morgue.  It was hard to tell.

It is unkind for anyone to make derogatory comments towards others on the assumption that others give warnings or make comments against those sort of images that they are trying to hide the reality of war.

Why not talk about the reality of the US road toll.  The death toll in the Middle East pales into insignificance compared to the number of people killed and injured on US roads…. and that is something everybody can do something about.

But you see it everyday, people are still hellbent on killing themselves and taking others with them.

Things need to be looked at in perspective.

An eccentric Aussie

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

Without fanatics would we have peacekeepers… Or maybe we could all become fanatics about peace :)

For me the whole Middle East situation is so convoluted, so tied up in misunderstanding and overall so dumbfounding I fear we may never really understand.  I ask myself as a Jew… Why do I hate you?  In order to come to some kind of understanding on the current situation I remember a time in my life.  Maybe it's my narcissism or my ego that makes me have to break something down to personal experience but at least in this case it works….

When I was in 8th grade there was a boy who constantly harassed the girl sitting next to me.  He was really cruel and often made her cry.  Finally I had enough and told him I was going to kick his butt if he continued.  Well, he did and after school I decided to jump him.  I waited in the bushes and when he walked by I jumped out and attacked him.  I hit him until he fell down then continued to kick him.  He tried to run away but I kept grabbing him, throwing him down and kicking him more.  Finally he got up and tried to run across the street only to be hit by the passing school bus.  He was knocked out cold and messed his pants just to further his humiliation.  This was the lowest I ever felt in my life and seeing him bloodied made me vomit. 

Anyway my point….  To the observer or anybody who might have taken photo's of the beating I looked like the total aggressor and he the poor beaten boy.  I out weighed him, was taller and I guess a better fighter.  Nobody observing would know or understand the six months that led to my actions.  The only thing they saw was a very unfair beating.  I see this paralleled in our current situation.

My actions were wrong but that is youth and I have never struck another living being again.  It was truly the lowest I ever felt and almost 25 years later I still think about Brett and wonder if he remembers me only has a complete jerk or even at all.  I wonder what made him so angry and hurtful inside to act out against the girl in such cruel ways.  I wonder if by my beating him only contributed to a long line of abuse that eventually only made him more full of anger resulting in him acting out against others.  

So I think about the observer.  I think about the fighters.  I wonder who is hurt the worst by throwing stones.

 I know Brett doesn't remember my name but I do his.  So maybe the one who took the most damage was myself in the long run. 

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

UA presents an interesting analogy with the 8th grade beating.

There certainly appeared to be justification in your beating of the cruel boy, if we go beyond just the beating. He terrorized the girl. However, other kids had always taunted the cruel boy which added to his cruelty which, by the way, was originally taught to him by his parents who often abused him into submission. Yet, his parents were often controlled by abuse in childhood by their parents. And one wonders where you learned as a child, that a “beating” was the final means of control (which it seems you no longer subscribe to).

Add to that a social system (school) that promotes alienation, aggression and competition, rather than relationship, negotiation and peace, and we can see that the cards have always been stacked against the cruel boy ever changing and always requiring a beating. His pain/suffering and inevitable attack has always been justified, just as yours was.

Obviously, I extrapolate only to make a point and the point is somewhat controversial. Both the Israelis and the Palestinians will need to adopt forgiveness. However, it is the forgiveness that actually claims that the past never happened. It is a leap of denial that may be the only way we can evolve and surrender vengeance.

Otherwise, the cruel boy will forever require beatings, demanding more cruelty as revenge, and more beatings, etc. This circle of fear is self-perpetuating and requires, as Einstein claimed, a different type of thinking than what caused the problem.

The thinking that caused and perpetuates the problem must be denied and completely forgotten (in other words, we must deny that history ever happened). This will require a leap of denial because we have become so utterly comfortable with our system of vengeance as justice. There is absolutely no justice in the world. Never has been, from the 8th grade boy to the Palestinians, only cycles of justified vengeance and punishment. Unless history is denied and thus, dissolved, we will continue to justify continued cycles of vengeance.

Just saying…

Peace Angels,
mikeS

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

I was quite hesitant in opening the link on this thread, but……

My first thought was, Oh my God, I have not a single solitary problem that I should ever complain about again!!!!!!  The baby in one of the photos appears to be right about Zaccourii's age……

I began to read the posts and felt my heart shoot into my throat…I became very angry that there was an argument, a very petty one at that, being established.  As I read on, I could see that the issue at hand were being addressed, so, I began to calm down.

Who really gives a s**t about censorship, blocking and other petty emotional garbage games when you see these pictures?  Poor me, I was blocked, poor me for this, poor me for that…….When you look at these photos, doesn't that all melt away???????

I will happily carry my problems along, my poor little health issues and stick it in my pocket…..I HAVE NO PROBLEMS!!!!!!!!!

Pray, Pray, Pray for these sweet people, they are God's kid's too….My heart weeps for them, my soul aches…..tear's are streaming down my face at the thought of how selfish I have been….I feel ashamed.

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

I did not mean to offend……this just hurts my heart so…..I do not quite know how to really express this.

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

Andrew, Nicole, Joanna, Mike, et. al:
This pictures are so disturbing. Andrew thank you so much for the warning.  As I have been in the medical field, five years spent in an Emergency Room, I have been faced with injury and death, but not at this level.  Those that feel it is significant to kill a child over political gains surely should be bound to a cross or burned at the stake.  As my father put it so many times, “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth”.  These people are savages.  Have we become that.?  Prayers are with these little ones.  May someone help them through this turmoil.

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

Missy I know the blocking reference was to myself but there was no offense taken.

Having worked at the coal face of mans inhumanity to man I never got used to the way people could treat children.

As horrible and tragic the images are, the misery is over for most of the children in those images.

I would find it impossible to believe that anyone would deliberately target children in the war that is taking place in the Middle East.

What I am trying to get at is while it is right to be appalled at what is happening, as bad or worse is happening in your's and my neighbourhoods and roads.

Children that day after day are subjected to domestic violence and worse.

Whether a child is killed in war or killed at the hand of an enraged, impatient or drunk driver, or at the hands of a monster, a child is still dead, leaving a grief stricken family.

Why is the attention here on a war we can do little about when we are surrounded by a carnage we can do something about?

Andrew

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

Andrew - Not that I wish to argue about it, but I don't think anyone has to chose between various sufferings in the world.  As you say, all suffering is equal.  I don't think that, by being moved by these pictures, people are less likely to respond to the sufferings closer to home.  If anything, it reminds us of suffering in general and we become more aware of the suffering that already exists around us.

Anyways, fully appreciating the suffering in the world is not simply about stopping it.  There will always be suffering in the world.  First and foremost, I believe we're called to be witnesses…. and, from that standpoint, act as we are moved to act.

I can't say I'm always a good witness, but it feels like what I'm called to be.  I don't know what difference it makes.  I know I don't do enough… no one ever does.

As for drunk drivers, I see such people drive out of my parking ramp all of the time… as I work nights in a college town.  I call the police when someone is severely drunk.  It isn't that often I call because the police are already busy and they don't respond most of the time anyways.  Fortunately, I guess, most drunk people only drive at night when they're most likely to have wrecks with other drunk people.

It seems to me that, even though we can never do enough, we also can only do so much.

There are so many problems in the world.  I suspect that more people die from car exhaust than car accidents.  And I suspect that more people die from unhealthy lifestyles than from war and genocide.

I do sympathize with your pointing out the problem with focusing on suffering far away when suffering is all around us.  News of distant wars can be (and probably often is) used as a way of distracting away from the immediacy of suffering… especially for someone watching the news in relative freedom from suffering.

Its understandable I suppose.  The awareness of the immensity of suffering can be quite overwhelming.  I wouldn't blame the person who would rather focus on the positive all of the time.  Besides, if the person doesn't feel they can do anything about it, then it does make sense to ignore it… not that suffering has much to do with what makes sense.    I'm sure I'd too ignore suffering if I felt capable of it.  Nonetheless, suffering finds us all eventually.

Marmalade

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

I agree with the principle you are referring to Marmalade.

What I was endeavouring to do was bring a sense of perspective to people that were reacting to the horror of the photographs.  Emergency services workers see as bad, sometimes worse in road carnage.

One of the things that struck me about 911 was the reaction to that tragedy that brought the airlines to their knees and has affected the ease of airline travel all over the world, when statistically the most dangerous part of the trip before and since 911 is the trip to and from the airport.

The US government used the emotional response to the horror of that day to put through such draconian laws, that had people removed themselves from the horror of those images and seen the tragedy in perspective, those laws would never have been passed and those behind 911 would not have had such a profound victory by knowing they had affected the quality of life of just about everyone in the free world.

Unless there is a balance there is always the danger of a reaction being manipulated that is out of proportion to the original episode.

Andrew

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

Yep.  I totally agree.

Anytime I see something in the media, I immediately consider what the spin might be.  Even when unintentional, no view is unbiased.  And, when intentional, there are few things more sad than violence used as propaganda.  Such propaganda is too often used to promote and rationalize further violence.

Marmalade

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

Ua, Missy, Mike, Andrew, Marmalade, ricosoma, gina -

I am always humbled by the honesty and depth and wisdom of the posts of members here, how with an issue this painful and difficult and complex we can bring to light so many facets of it, and refuse to stay at a superficial or knee-jerk level.

Thanks, each of you, for your contributions to this thread. You make this group what it is by your presence and light.

Love to you all,

Nicole

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

Maramalade and Andrew,
                     Thank you for the perspectives and reminding me to look towards the suffering in my neighborhood where instead of wondering what to do I can actually bring the family down to the food bank and do something.
 
Mike,
     I always look forward towards your postings because I often feel you tap right into my thought process then expound in ways my mind works but I don't have the tools to verbalize or structure within myself.  You add much to my mind soup brother! Your idea of denial of the past to move forward at first struck me as totally absurd. One of the key points being an American Jew is to “never forget.”  I took the never forgot very seriously and to me it meant as a Jew it was my burden to remember so my tribe never inflicts suffering on another, which in turn has led me to my dismay and disgust to how Israel has carried herself at times in her short history. Now reflecting on your thought and really looking at “never forgot” I see another thought forming.  It stems from your words about the programming that led up to my 8th grade fight.
 
My actions….  I've always been a peaceful soul.  I was never one of the kids that got all excited by a school yard brawl and ran as fast as I could to circle and watch.  I had always been sickened by violence.  So what led me to think that beating him was an acceptable way to end the problem?  And more so what made me think I needed to be the tool of destruction?  One word…. Programming.

The thought to fight didn't just enter my mind.  It was encouraged.  My friends, the movies, how I witnessed playground drama played out.  The news showing war.  And our superheros.  Flying in and fighting the evil powers that inflict suffering.  So there I am just a kid and wanting to help this girl.  I'll be superman!!!!  And beating him up is the only way a super hero gets the girl, right? And my friends and society…. Justifying my behavior every step of the way. 

If we look at the current situation in the middle east I think the parallels are pretty obvious here.  By nature a peaceful people put into a situation and encouraged by the past and society that violence is the only means of action.  Silly on the playground… Downright destructive on the playground of our planet.

What does this have to do with pictures…  That is the topic right?  Programing.  Two things come to mind when I view photo's of destruction. First the reaction thought, the warrior thought, “Kill those bastards blowing up and harming children!”  The second thought, “Well, that's war I see images like that all the time.   What can I do?”
One leads to violence the other to apathy, none to healing.  As pointed out on this thread those images are indeed important, we can't close our eyes to the reality.  But realizing we can't build our actions on rash reactions prompted by photos.  Especially ones that only reflect a tiny piece of the puzzle.    They are just that, a piece of a puzzle.  Granted the most graphic and reactionary pieces which makes it so important we don't allow them to feed destructive or apathetic thoughts. But instead remind us of the immediate damage of hate and the desire to provide positive energy and real work to understanding both sides of the gun.

Maybe it comes down to not denying the past but saying something like, “Well that sucked!  Let's not act that way anymore.  How about a cup a tea… or maybe three?”
       Peace,
                    UA

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

In case anyone is interested, OM and I have been having a discussion about violence in the media in the Film Pod.  Its in a thread about the  movie Slumdog Millionaire.

http://pods.gaia.com/zfilms/discussions/view/361481#361481

Re: Pictures from Gaza - warning - disturbing images

Thanks, Marm and Ua,

Love,

Nicole