Gaia: Students of Ishmael

Quinn's New Book

http://theamat.gaia.com — Wed, 24 Jan 2007 22:36:46 GMT

News from the Ismael site! Daniel Quinn's new book "IF THEY GIVE YOU LINED PAPER, WRITE SIDEWAYS" is out as of January 2nd.

If you havent done so, you may want to join the Ishmael community at www.ishmael.com for more updates from Daniel Quinn.

Hey, just a thought - would anyone like to participate in a weekly chapter review of one of the books? We can read a chapter on any of the books (my vote's for the new one) and post our thoughts - that's what this pods all about after all.

Namaste
Thea

Re: Help Find A Better Word

http://wildleaf.gaia.com — Wed, 04 Oct 2006 11:10:02 GMT

Well, there it is ! Nothing too novel with that word choice then....we kinda got stuck on the "new word thing"...we ended up liking the simplistic term of "Walkaway" but that isn't quite right either...I am not an advocate for labels but a new word would help define the intention better for mainstream use. So many words--so few minutes to consider them all ! :)

Re: Help Find A Better Word

http://pace.gaia.com — Mon, 02 Oct 2006 20:13:45 GMT

Sean,

It looks like Neo-Tribalism is already the phrase in usage! Look, it's even on Wikipedia!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Tribalism

Re: Help Find A Better Word

http://magi.gaia.com — Mon, 18 Sep 2006 14:12:38 GMT

I am fond of Walkers because it could also have the connotation of walking gently on the earth or leaving a minimum impact. Plus the memetic history of the idea harkens back to the transcendentalists and the 19th century naturalists.

Namaste

Re: Help Find A Better Word

Sun, 17 Sep 2006 14:24:49 GMT

"“Trannie” is slang for trans-sexual… you might not want to go there." Man, I've really got my finger on the pulse of popular culture, don't I? Thanks for the head's-up, Booner.

Re: Help Find A Better Word

Sat, 16 Sep 2006 21:48:54 GMT

"Trannie" is slang for trans-sexual... you might not want to go there.

"Walker" I rather like. Sounds better than "drop-out".

"Noetic" may be too broad... noetics may be open to non-tribal forms of organization.

Re: New tribes and adverse selection?

Sat, 16 Sep 2006 21:40:35 GMT

I think there is a disconnect between the notion of security and the notion of dismissal. There are slackers and there are people who try very hard but just aren't very competent. Each tribe has to decide whom to carry (security) and whom to vote off the island (dismissal). Policies will vary from tribe to tribe, and (here's where adverse selection comes in) the marginally competent will be attracted to tribes with lenient policies, and the exceptionally productive will be attracted to tribes with strict policies... unless there is some social glue like kinship or shared belief system that retards mobility from tribe to tribe.

Re: Help Find A Better Word

http://lifepuzzle.gaia.com — Sat, 16 Sep 2006 18:34:20 GMT

I like the Trannies...

Another term....Carolyn Myss used this when she talked about the end of 'homo sapiens'..and suggesting a new 'branch' of the human journey would be Homo noeticus....with 'noetic' being a person who is open to all dimensions and the interconnected ness...

So, maybe Noetics....

Re: Help Find A Better Word

Sat, 16 Sep 2006 12:56:47 GMT

You're right about Zaadz, Sean. It's a fun word for most of us. I guess part of my reluctance about "tribalism" stems from my study of Ken Wilber and the Spiral Dynamics crowd. If you're familiar with them, you may remember that they've color-coded stages of consciousness development, starting with beige and passig through purple, red, orange, green, yellow, turquoise and going up to teal, I believe. Tribalism is linked with a fairly low level (red), and even though this would be NEW tribalism, I still feel a need to transcend the term. Hey! Stream of consciousness, right? "Transcendants" or Trannies, for short. Or "The Walkers," from Quinn's injunction to just walk away from civilization as it now exists. CollectiveX. OK, you guys take a shot...

Re: New tribes and adverse selection?

http://wildleaf.gaia.com — Fri, 15 Sep 2006 21:17:42 GMT

I disagree that there needs to be some strong social glue to hold a tribe together....I believe that what held tribes together was a "strong self preservation glue". Which of course is a kind of "social glue" since we can define those words in many ways...the strength it seems to me of the tribal model is that it simply WORKS. It works to support and provide security for the individual while acting within the whole. Regarding a business tribal model, a co-op is a perfect example of a business owned and operated by it's members for the gain of the individual and through that--a gain for the whole. Slackers may survive in a virtual project team but only if roles and responsibilites are not clearly defined. If 5 members of a co-op business run the business and each is dependent on the other for it's "survival" then a poor performance or no performance will include an "auto-remedy" of dismissal from the co-op for not holding up their end and therefore affecting the whole. Just like the ancient tribal model. The hunter-gatherer that never hunted as part of the tribal hunting party would soon not reap the rewards as well...

Re: Help Find A Better Word

http://wildleaf.gaia.com — Fri, 15 Sep 2006 20:41:12 GMT

Another try here at rousing the troops...any interest here in brainstorming a new word for Tribalism Today ? "Stream of consciousness stuff" is okay too....just throw it out there for consideration...

Re: New tribes and adverse selection?

http://lifepuzzle.gaia.com — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 02:28:07 GMT

I agree that all communities are problematic....and being a counselor...I know how many different levels of consciousness people are at....and when you try to put them together, phew, watch out! It is very tough...

And I think another huge issue though is trust--we have been taught to distrust others with an 'every man for himself'.Taker culture. From that anyone currently trying to create a community has, I believe a deep wondering of "am I going to end up a sucker at the end of all this? even as they cross fingers and hope it works out!..

To me it comes back to a huge 'shift in consciousness'...starting with SELF responsiblity--truly owning your own life, taking risks with consciousness, being engaged (no slacking here!) merged with a new connection to the entire Community of Life and designing life that honors all. That said...I would venture a guess that less than 2% of the world's population could meet these requirements :(

So, from a 'social glue' stand point..I don't think we've got it at this point ....sad to say.

Re: New tribes and adverse selection?

Sat, 09 Sep 2006 02:00:36 GMT

I am still in the city during the week but hike in the mountains on weekends. I aspire to turn this inside out and live in the country full time and come into town once a week for supplies. I am all for virtual communities. Right now satellite internet is the only "broadband to the boonies" and that is just barely adequate. I have no objection to physical proximity, in fact I am looking to visit or intern at an eco-village or other sustainable community to learn a few things.

You say that "leaving the tribe would be as simple as all agreeing..." etc. But all don't have to agree. The only person who has to agree is the one leaving, and he can just walk out.

I do have some experience with virtual project teams, and there are some real problems with this, mainly with people who coast on the efforts of others. Open-source projects do work, but it is all volunteer work so there is no bounty to share and no problem with slackers.

When a business hits hard times, the tendency is for the best employees to move on while the worst employees hang on as long as they can. Scarcity for all? Not if people are free to leave.

New tribalism? I think there needs to be some very strong social glue to hold a tribe together. Even then, it's problematic. Marriages fall apart, business partnerships dissolve. It would be interesting to see some statistics on turnover in intentional communities. A virtual tribe? Even more problematic.

Re: The Food Race and Free Will

http://lifepuzzle.gaia.com — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 21:42:08 GMT

I didn't know it was so much an ovulation issue...but yes in many tribes, average time between children was four years--which is both an issue about food/nursing but also from a developmental level--that's about the right age for a child to be able to start taking care of itself a bit--and thus, if a new child comes, the mother can release some of the attention on the older child (and its also good for the child at that age....whereas we have kids now, like 2 years apart--and most 2 year olds aren't ready to give up their mother attachment--they do it because they have to..not because they want to)

And as for the large number of children being produced--despite very little food....There's also a huge infant mortality issue within that--tied into 'no birth control' as well as one other factor--about the only 'legacy' an adult has in those cultures is the 'children' they produce. Knowing many will die, mixed with poor or no birth control and the drive to procreate is a deadly combination--literally and figuratively.

Re: New tribes and adverse selection?

http://lifepuzzle.gaia.com — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 21:34:40 GMT

I'd say its too soon to know .....and one other thought is 'virtual communities'. As Quinn talked about in Beyond Civilization--they created a community whereby each contributed their talents to support the tribe (newspaper)...and yes, they were all within the same building--but is this a requirement to make a community?

You say in your profile that you like living in the 'boonies' and thus I assume you don't want to join in physical proximity--but does that mean you don't want to join in virtual proximity? Thus, a 'group' could come together, co-support each other by contributing talents from which they all reap the bounty....but could be scattered across the globe. "Leaving" the tribe would be as simple as all agreeing that the member either can't or doesn't want to continue to contribute (because they want to jump to a different tribe at this time in their lives--because of a myriad of reasons--new excitement with a group, new challenges etc.)

This would allow for the flexibility/need for tribal change...especially in lives that are going to last 90 years of which we might be actively 'working' from 16 to 76...how could one tribe serve every members needs for that long--they couldn't! But if tribes were more virtual...and not physically 'stuck', it allows for moving, changing--and also--and this is what I think is going ot have to be a major requirement for every tribe member--each is SELF responsible--not in an 'every man for himself', but self responsible in honoring that in joining a tribe, my SELF has a responsibilty to honor self and other members--when my needs change or the tribe's needs change--we are 'adult' responsible and can work to morph the tribe as needed, deal with possible disappointments and still move on...

New tribes and adverse selection?

Thu, 07 Sep 2006 23:14:16 GMT

People were born into hunter/gatherer tribes and remained in those tribes for life (or married into closely related tribes, or perhaps a tribe would split into two tribes). The same is true for some modern tribes, such as the Hutterites.

However, we are mobile and can pick and choose, and come and go. I see many Intentional Communities with some form of communal property or income sharing that are looking for new members, as opposed to expanding the group by having children.

So, if prospective members can pick and choose, is there an adverse selection problem? Will the most capable and productive among us find the tribal model disadvantageous?

Re: Fully integrated 21st century ....."new tribalism"

Thu, 07 Sep 2006 22:56:04 GMT

I agree... despite my quibbles with a few details, Quinn has made an enormous contribution.

I have another question, which I will start in another thread.

Re: Fully integrated 21st century ....."new tribalism"

Thu, 07 Sep 2006 22:47:19 GMT

I haven't read her books, but they sounded so interesting that I just had to look up the author.

On the Russian data, I believe the big decline in life expectancy was in the aftermath of the collapse... which would be about 1990 to 1995. I keep seeing references to the "Russian mortality crisis of the 90s", so maybe things have improved since then. In any event, neither the Former Soviet Union nor modern Russia is a poster child for sustainability.

Re: The Food Race and Free Will

Thu, 07 Sep 2006 16:09:48 GMT

Are any of you aware that originally women didn't ovulate once a month and especially during times of crises (or when food supply was low). Now, this was obviously natures way of not bringing a child into an unsafe world, hence, low food supply would result in a more stabilized population. However, we now don't follow by this rule due to 2.6 millions of years of evolution (due in part by our cultural surplus which has had an effect on our bodies). Has anybody every wondered why even when there is starvation in parts of Africa, children are still being produced? Things are more complicated than this simple equation: less food surplus=less people.

Re: Fully integrated 21st century ....."new tribalism"

http://lifepuzzle.gaia.com — Thu, 07 Sep 2006 15:56:35 GMT

I agree Sean....I think Quinn's real contribution is the way he's opened the lens on mother culture and forced us to look at the current 'meme' or story--and make us ask, "Is this working"....his going back to tribal/leaver cultures and showing the foundation of those cultures isn't his trying to say 'let's go back'--in fact, he says over and over and over again--there's no going back--ever.

But what we can do it look at 'what worked from those cultures',(the basic laws of the Community of Life( integrate it into what's working in our cultures--certainly plenty of good things we're doing too, and 'create' a new flow.

That's what the book, Cultural Creatives, how 50 million people are changing the world' showed too....all of us in this pod are Cultural Creatives--trying to figure out what's good from previous culltures, and what's need for the future and merge that into a new way of living on this planet. To me, it is all wonderfully filled with potential--