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Re: Fully integrated 21st century ....."new tribalism"

Ann said Sep 2, 2006, 8:13 PM:

Yes, why don't you start a new thread on 'name'? Commuitarianism isn't it :)

Um, as for posting the Community Life Puzzle…haven't figured out how to do a private page…? Any suggestions?

Thanks for thinking of ordering the book-keep it mind it is written for folks who are at the early stages of exploration-it isn't for someone who has been reading Tolle or Wilbur for years!

You mentioned the adults need the Life Puzzle more perhaps than even the kids…Its a 'both' in this case (and actually I have a program called CART: creating a responsible thinker-where we teach it to parents and their teens-becomes a living language at home to stay focused on proactive, building life vs. traditional 'fix problems/current crisis). But you thought adults might not find it compelling-actually adults love it because for most adults, they are struggling so hard to find something to hold onto…what they tell me is that Life Puzzle is like throwing them a lifeline-when they feel like they're sinking in overload! LP doesn't 'tell' them what to do…just provides a framework on which they build their own. (I am so anti-Guru-like Quinn, he has no interest in telling others…he says, here's the concept, now create your own…I feel exactly the same way-here's the frame, now you decide what to put on it.)

As for the business-yes, the 'new foraging' isn't in the bushes but in the concrete jungle so to speak. But what we need to know is that work fits into life…life does not fit into what's leftover after work-so world wide, the focus is on life, not money/stuff.

As Quinn said-every single species on this planet 'works' and we must too…the bird works for his worm, the worm works his dirt-but they work enough to sustain life…and no more. Birds aren't out hoarding worms….yes, a little risky-somedays they dont' get quite enough worm so 'saving for a rainy day' might look like a good idea-but not really-the balance is that there will be 'enough' and hoarding would be a waste if time, We humans on the other hand, 'hoard like crazy'-making our lives an 'obsession' about money/stuff at the expense of life….
And look at how we 'plant' this in mother culture….from the time a kid is four years old we ask “what are you going to be when you grow up”…with the implication that if you find the right 'job' (which will get you the right money) then you've done the most important thing (and all other pieces will of course then just fall into place) WHAT if instead, we asked a child from the time they were four…”How's your whole Life (puzzle) coming along..,with the implication that life is about finding ALL the pieces in the journey of life…..Quite a differrence isn't it?

For now though…work/hoarding of money is seen as so much more important than….LIFE!
Again, until we bust the 'Divine Right of Capital'…we're stuck. If you recall the Divine Right of Kings was a made up story-but a very powerful story for hundreds of years-so powerful in fact that a starving family on the kings' land would be forbidden to kill a deer to feed itself because, the king being divine-that deer belonged to him….AND everyone accepted that because the king was divine-it was okay for this family to starve to death!

And today, Divine Right of Capital(money) has us equally accepting-tonight, many will starve, live marginal lives-because King Capital says so…..
One day, in 1776, a small group said, “You know…I don't think the King is Divine after all-and if he isn't Divine, we don't have to bow down to his BS….
and perhaps one day, in 2006, a large group would say, “You know I don't think Capital(money) is Divine and if it isn't Divine, we don't have to keep kowtowing our lives to it….

And then…money would work for US instead of us working for MONEY

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Re: Fully integrated 21st century ....."new tribalism"

Booner [no longer around] said Sep 2, 2006, 11:50 PM:

1. “Communitarian” is already being used:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communitarian

2. Birds do too hoard things! The corvids (ravens, crows, magpies) will hoard shiny objects. As will pack rats. And squirrels hoard acorns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoarding

3. Divine Right of Capital… is that an allusion to Marjorie Kelly's book? The book deserves a pod of its own, but has Quinn addressed this topic specifically?

Re: Fully integrated 21st century ....."new tribalism"

Ann said Sep 3, 2006, 2:55 PM:

Yeah, I think we agree communitarian isn't the word we're looking for…..
When I was talking about 'hoarding', I meant as humans do–in order to deprive others a space on this planet. While a few birds might hoard shiny objects–none of them are doing it to make others 'extinct'…and Squirrels aren't hoarding acorns any more than a polar bear is hoarding salmon–they may gorge for a while–due to limited time span of available food sources–if a squirrel doesn't collect enough to make it through the winter, they're dead. Hoarding implies they collect enough acorns to live a full year or more…that they don't do.

And yes, Divine right of capital by Kelly is exactly what I'm talking about and it does deserves its own thread….(or pod). No, Quinn, at least to my knowledge has not addressed this topic specifically–but I think he would see her work as a good thing–in that you know when he says 'create'…her work is a big 'creation' in helping us all understand what's going to need to be changed if we're going to replace current culture. I have been in touch with her–and have said to her–you need to simplify this story (as in, most people won't read that first book)…and she knows this and is working on that right now–a way for everyone to understand what she is saying.

Re: Fully integrated 21st century ....."new tribalism"

Booner [no longer around] said Sep 3, 2006, 10:12 PM:

Polar bears don't eat salmon. Polar bears eat seals.

And is hoarding among humans really such a problem? Yes, we have too much stuff, but I think the stuff we keep is less of a problem than the stuff we throw away… the opposite of hoarding.

Re: Fully integrated 21st century ....."new tribalism"

Sean said Sep 4, 2006, 6:28 AM:

Actually Polar bears do eat salmon but the seal is a much better feast for the energy investment….We can agree to substitute “Bear” though and be more accurate for the analogy I suppose.
Is hoarding a problem? I surely think so…but I also agree throwing away is as much the problem. Both sides of the same coin. You can’t throw away lots of stuff without first having lots of stuff.
So, Booner–help us to flesh out this new thread– What is your particular issue with ‘tribalism” ( better word thread coming next…;) )

Re: Fully integrated 21st century ....."new tribalism"

Booner [no longer around] said Sep 5, 2006, 7:20 PM:

Re hoarding: yes, of course I have to have stuff to throw away stuff. However, there is a limit to how much stuff I can hoard; I only have so much space. There is no limit to how much stuff I can buy and throw away. Therefore, waste (the opposite of hoarding) is potentially a much greater problem than hoarding.

Re my particular issue: Quinn is a master storyteller. I think he has chosen to tell a somewhat inaccurate and incomplete story in order to reach a larger audience. It's a warm and fuzzy story about the Community of Life that glosses over the infanticide and shortened life expectancy in hunter/gatherer societies. Just as I question the products that I consume, so too do I question the stories that I consume. I hear something like “hoarding is a problem” and I wonder “what is the opposite of hoarding?” and “which is a greater problem, hoarding or its opposite?” Quinn does what he does, namely tell a great story, and I do what I do, namely pick apart the details.

Re: Fully integrated 21st century ....."new tribalism"

Ann said Sep 5, 2006, 8:03 PM:

And certainly we should read everything with a very healthy 'skepticism'. Ishmael though isn't just a 'story', it is based on paleontology…If you want to read the drier version of this, get The Chalice and the Blade by Riane Eisler…she is a french paleontologist who did an amazing 'rewrite'–esssentially busting the mother culture interpretation of facts of archeological research–showing that while tribal cultures were far from perfect…they had some key 'assets' that made tribal model successful for anywhere from 40,000-120,000 years. Many of these 'assets' we ditched as population explosion had tribes bumping into each other and beginning to compete for food…..

Yes, hunter/gatherer societies missed a lot of other knowledge…for instance, not knowing about germs (which of course were invisible)…much of their young death can be attributed to the awareness of cleanliness. In fact, up until about 1900…infant mortality was extremely high–a very high percentage of kids died before 5…if you made it past 5 however, you had a good chance at making it into your 50's…. So, was it really that the tribes were so ignorant–or were we just as ignorant too?

Interesting thing happening…in the US life expectancy keeps going up…but ironically, it is plummeting in Russia…..like down around the level of, um, pre-1900's. What's that about?

Re: Fully integrated 21st century ....."new tribalism"

Sean said Sep 6, 2006, 4:20 PM:

I heard about “Chalice and the Blade” but never read it…thanks for the reference–it is now on my reading list.

Ann, do you have any links to the Russia life expectency information?…that is extremely interesting–especially in light of the recent “capitalistic” changes in Russian life which promised a better life for all–including modeling our system which in part, supposedly provides an environment and resources for longer lives.

Re: Fully integrated 21st century ....."new tribalism"

Booner [no longer around] said Sep 7, 2006, 12:55 AM:

Ann, please forgive me, but Riane Eisler, the “French paleontologist”, is neither French nor a paleontologist. She was born in Austria, grew up in Cuba, and has degrees in sociology and law from the University of California.

Re life expectancy in Russia:

http://www.lshtm.ac.uk/ecohost/projects/mortality-russia.htm

Re: Fully integrated 21st century ....."new tribalism"

Ann said Sep 7, 2006, 8:49 AM:

Oop, my bad recall…thanks for the clarification….Still have you read her books? I'm not sure whether its Ishmael or My Ishmael that he makes this reference to Chalice and the Blade…but its there somewhere.

The data on life expectancy….anything more recent because if I read it right (though I went through real quick), this is data from about 10 years ago….

Re: Fully integrated 21st century ....."new tribalism"

Booner [no longer around] said Sep 7, 2006, 3:47 PM:

I haven't read her books, but they sounded so interesting that I just had to look up the author.

On the Russian data, I believe the big decline in life expectancy was in the aftermath of the collapse… which would be about 1990 to 1995. I keep seeing references to the “Russian mortality crisis of the 90s”, so maybe things have improved since then. In any event, neither the Former Soviet Union nor modern Russia is a poster child for sustainability.

Re: Fully integrated 21st century ....."new tribalism"

Sean said Sep 6, 2006, 4:06 PM:

I am “picker” as well Booner…a critical approach is often best these days with the rampant number of self proclaimed guru’s out there…

You will get no argument from me that waste is worse than hoarding. But I do think that the mentality involving waste comes from a “hoarding philosophy”. Hoarding is WANTING–regardless if the want is kept ( hoarded) or thown away. Our “disposable society” was birthed from the desire of MORE- which to me is hoarding of a different type. If you curtail your waste you change your approach to your wants. Even the desire for “convenience” changes when you are concerned about what you throw away.

Quinn is certainly a storyteller but it seems to me ( not trying to be a Quinn apologist here) that his style wasn’t so much to build a fanciful story to sell books but to frame a new understanding using story. We all know of the effective use of parable/myth to explain more complicated lessons. An anthropological history book would never reach the majority of us and even if it did, it would probably be less understood. He painstakingly re-tells his same story in all of his books–in an obvious effort ( to me) to find different ways to illustrate it.

Is it all accurate? I for one have my doubts as well…How do we REALLY know anything for sure regarding human history spanning tens of thousands of years? I also don’t believe that our tribal ancestors lived an idylic life that we should seek to emulate. The fact that it worked for them doesn’t give me any license to believe it will work for me thousands of (consciousness) evolved years later. Perhaps there I diverge from a stricter interpretation of what Quinn is teaching/saying.

I read Quinn with an eye more toward the foundational issues of respecting the community of all species and the wisdom in a tribal approach to our human affairs. Food grown/distributed locally, diverse cultures and traditions, localized support systems–things of that nature.Polar opposites of the “One World Order” and the homogenization of human peoples. Less is more, bigger is not best and “affluenza” serves only to cause more stress and less purposeful, happy existences.

Which I like to think is the real story Quinn is telling us…So keep picking apart the details to help us get to an authentic expression of a “fully integrated 21st century tribalism”. Pick freely–we need to.

Re: Fully integrated 21st century ....."new tribalism"

Ann said Sep 7, 2006, 8:56 AM:

I agree Sean….I think Quinn's real contribution is the way he's opened the lens on mother culture and forced us to look at the current 'meme' or story–and make us ask, “Is this working”….his going back to tribal/leaver cultures and showing the foundation of those cultures isn't his trying to say 'let's go back'–in fact, he says over and over and over again–there's no going back–ever.

But what we can do it look at 'what worked from those cultures',(the basic laws of the Community of Life( integrate it into what's working in our cultures–certainly plenty of good things we're doing too, and 'create' a new flow.

That's what the book, Cultural Creatives, how 50 million people are changing the world' showed too….all of us in this pod are Cultural Creatives–trying to figure out what's good from previous culltures, and what's need for the future and merge that into a new way of living on this planet. To me, it is all wonderfully filled with potential–

Re: Fully integrated 21st century ....."new tribalism"

Booner [no longer around] said Sep 7, 2006, 3:56 PM:

I agree… despite my quibbles with a few details, Quinn has made an enormous contribution.

I have another question, which I will start in another thread.

Re: Fully integrated 21st century ....."new tribalism"

Sean said Sep 4, 2006, 7:14 AM:

Regarding posting the Community Life Puzzle…if you create a new page ( / subfolder) on your website ( for instance, www.lifepuzzle.com/clf ) and upload your jpeg or pdf of the graphic to that page then you could post that link here. If you do not have website FTP access or use a website company that makes it too difficult you could send me the image in a private e-mail and I will post it as a subpage on one of my sites and I will place the link here gladly.

I am always interested in new approaches so your book would surely provide another view –despite more involved study/ reading I have done. I also have it in mind for my 19 year old who will listen to other folks ideas more objectively before taking “old Dad’s” usual advice…;)

Work and life must surely be ONE in this discussion…and not “work” with it’s usual, modern definition. Work as a purpose driven experience in addition to an exchange of effort for recompense. We have to get rid of this TGIF ( Thank God it’s Friday) or our Hump day ( Wednesday…1/2 way to TGIF !) approach we have. Tribal IDLE, Tribal PLAY and Tribal WORK were all not so segregated before…they all were equal aspects of living–LIFE. With no clear boundary between them…play, work and idle seems to be combined in the world of nature. For most of us it is not so–which of course is what we are discussing–a whole, biocentric view of the world and our life in it.

Yes, 1776 was a defining moment in a revolutionary step to a new life– we need nothing less now. So, let’s attempt to “flesh out” the issues and our challenges on just HOW to do that. I think we agree that there won’t be one right way…but perhaps this thread will help to define many ways. The issue always is how best to do this. Throwing the tea into the harbor was one way and it was a pretty good plan that worked to initiate a start. What is our plan for a start–or one of the starts?

But better we first dig around this issue of WHAT/HOW it works that Booner began…Which of course is what we are doing right now.

Re: Fully integrated 21st century ....."new tribalism"

Ann said Sep 4, 2006, 12:19 PM:

Well, I could post a page on my site…except I'm in a major re-do on my website, so I don't want to post there at this time….if you can post/link, let me know where to send it.

And the book would be good for your 19 year old…know what you mean–being Dad, right now anything you'd suggest would be awful, hahahah :)

Yes, the work/life as an integrated process needs to become th focus…but the third piece in that is the work/life/money exchange too…because while everyone will say, 'yes, I want my work to be in balance–the very next comment is, 'yeah, but I need money (lots of it), and thus, I'm stuck….

I was thinking relative to 1776–Patrick Henry's pamphlet (give me liberty, give me death) was a major piece in all that–because it made people aware of the 'divine right of kings' in such a way as they too would say, 'hey, yeah, well, come to think of it, I don't think the king is so divine either'…..I think we need to expose the 'divine right of capital' myth too…

Perhaps we could do a 'youtube.com' show….a funny exposure of 'money', for example, talking about the stock market for what it really is…..As Kelly says in her book, it is time to stop using the work 'investors' and start calling them what they really are 'speculators'..

Can you imagine a 'Stock market report'…where we're acting as a reporter…and “Speculators today really jumped on this stock (and its the stock that lets you bet on 'climate futures', –this is real–you can actually get an insurance policy that 'bets' on climate catastrophes….and you can invest in the company that sells them)…but what I'm really getting at is…letting people see the myth of 'investing in stock'….For example, when Cingular bought AT&T…stock went up…and 7000 people lost their jobs….doing a youtube spoof…shows the 'happy investor' and the not so happy employee…..and tying this into the divine right of capital..a.t the expense of humans….

ann