Gaia: Knights & Maidens of the Roundtable - Economics - Economics from the ground up

Re: Economics from the ground up

http://seek2know.gaia.com — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:21:35 GMT

Janos good to see your post and timely reminder here. Economics is too important a subject to be left to Economists, says author Jim Stanford. I am grateful to get his comment in my blog and just teceived another one from a lawyer on my monetary vision today. I need help to spread it globally.

Please visit my blog and share it with your spanish or african, chinese friends in developing world. And also send me your kind comment, so other people feel encouraged to explore, discover, learn, think and engage differently. Our freedom, our children's future and the survival of our planet's ecology depends on it. Lets wake up and resolve to create a sane reality that works for all.

Do me a favor. Please search here a cool visual metasearch engine

Transforming Money Debt to Empowerment

or

Deep Conscious Capitalism

Wish I could have some spanish translation. Google translator do not do a good job. Thanks

Peace
mita

cheers

Re: Economics from the ground up

http://goodworld.gaia.com — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:47:10 GMT

Good people's general lack of interest in how economics dominate and determine everyone's private life ensures that not effective coalition can be brought together to change economics from master into the servant of humankind.

Wake up spirituosi!
On earth, those who control nature's resources, control the conditions of every soul's incarnation.

Don't understand? Meditate on it.

Re: Money from nothing into debt

http://seek2know.gaia.com — Sat, 26 Jan 2008 05:23:17 GMT

There is much to learn from the history of money and maney-changers and rise and fall of civilization with the soundness and stability of currency. While people have been historically kept divided by ethno-religious-ideology based conflicts and wars of all kinds by the powerbrokers, the real source of power has always been the agreement (voluntary or involuntary by force or threat) of people.

What we the people have forgotten that our true power resides on collective co-operation and intelligence (and not unhealthy competition with one another), especially in accepting a fair currency and medium of exchange. We can talk endlessly about fair trade, right livelihood, compassionate capitalism, sustainability but unless fractional reserve based lending, debt-money and usury is transformed to 100% trust and usury-free (not necessarily interest free) sustainable currency and allocated fairly to all through citizen's income the chances of achieving millenium goals and preventing death by poverty and war.

Lawyers and politians will only work after at least 2.5% of the citizens become aware of the insanity of debt-based monetary system. Our inner perception and reality must shift before outer changes can take place....I feel it is shifting and more we share the info and educate others globally especially our youth...we will make the cut.

Janos I like your idea "Park cars outside every bank in a district with windows plastered by leaflets saying to passers by something to the effect that ”do you know that the banks are lending you what they do not have and costs them nothing?”

We can just put the leaflets on the front windshield wipers ;) I've done that for Election Frauds on last Election Day. Banking frauds are still the most hidden and people do not see the entangled connections...even the accounting system is fraudulant.

Peace
http://conscious-capitalism.blogspot.com

Re: Money from nothing into debt

http://songofstorms.gaia.com — Tue, 08 Jan 2008 22:29:13 GMT

This word "devil" has been of late (ok, almost always) quite misunderstood! In my mind, the 'devil' is only the thoughts and actions that are not based in love, but in the void. But the thoughts associated with money do tend to be the devil sometimes, aren't they? But in order to rid the world of money-- well, we'd have to sidestep the paradigm where money gets you the things you need to live. Brilliant method of 'control' that, by those with devils in their pretty brains. We work for paper, and being busy working for paper, we stay in forgetfulness. Ugly thoughts that lead to the creation of money, but pretty brains...

Re: Money from nothing into debt

http://serafimer.gaia.com — Tue, 08 Jan 2008 19:42:49 GMT

If only the heart would be awake and bit!

However, prefered it seems is Ressurection or a maybe a Loaner.
And if they have no brains for carring action, but choose to drive into destruction, who would care?

Souls will incarnate when truth, love and belief manifests.

But is it the money matter creating the problems?
or the Zombism of cloned Greediness, Selfishness, Impotence to Act , Corruption and Irresponsibilty.

Are people working for the Devil because the Devil is rich?
Is money the cause of evils or the putrid void inside the talking heads?

When a soul knows the truth, believes and lives! ...by Taking Action to lead away injustice, mischief and prejudice!

Who is awake?

Re: Economics from the ground up

http://goodworld.gaia.com — Tue, 08 Jan 2008 14:26:18 GMT

Susmita,

Thank you for this extract from you paper.

The question is how to validate (make information able to transform the situation that it clarifies).

Knowledge is power only when it is applied. Corporate Personhood is a good case in question.

If lawyers created the phenomenon progressive lawyers can be asked to tame this dragon praying on people. We want a team of honest lawyer-knights to do this. How do we find these willing Knights?

Another task is waiting for a different team--people who are into action.
Park cars outside every bank in a district with windows plastered by leaflets saying to passers by something to the effect that "do you know that the banks are lending you what they do not have and costs them nothing?" then in smaller print provide some details to explain the headline slogan.

Re: Economics from the ground up

http://seek2know.gaia.com — Sun, 06 Jan 2008 22:52:22 GMT

Just quickly posting a section from my paper. All this conflicts between individual and society, private and public, personal vs collective are in our perception and perpetuated by ideologies for divide and rule purposes to keep status quo or make changes in ways that don't touch the heart of the monster. I feel education and awareness is a must and change has to come from the fringes (neither totally in, nor totally out) by conscious engaged citizens.

Public Vs Private and Other Assumptions: The definition and perception of “public” entities Vs. “private” corporations has been blurred historically through a complex system of legislations. Giving gobal mega-corporations with employees in different countries and continents the "private" status to avoid public accountability legally is something that needs to be questioned (see corporate personhood).

Each person is simultaneously a public and private citizen in his/her daily life. Any institution dealing with people, land resources and environment must hold a greater degree of civic responsibility and accountability than maximization of profit for a few shareholders alone.

The two basic assumptions of economics regarding "scarcity" and "competition" (as the best model for free market allocation) need to be seriously questioned. Human ingenuity, creativity and enterprise have always overcome scarcity or lack anywhere within society. Such progress has been always accompanied by mutual cooperation and collaborative behavior and ingenuity of individuals rather than competition among private corporations ( see 'Unequal Protection’).

To build economies from ground up we need public-private (real private not corporate) partnership and rethink money and currency.

cheers

Re: Economics from the ground up

http://andrewmarkmusic.gaia.com — Sun, 07 Oct 2007 18:37:51 GMT

There is a simple, practical and eminently feasible socio-economic solution to this distorted economic relationship between individuals and groups; but more of that in another post--this post is getting too long and transgresses against my private rule that "too many words bury the truth".

I'd be interested in hearing about some of those ideas! It does kind of seem to me that humanity has tried pretty well everything: religious communities, political ideologies, well, we've tried it all and it appears to have all fallen hopelessly short in creating authentic sustainable egalitarian type societies......Are we now doomed?

Don't we really need an 'outside' saviour to rescue us from our collective ignorance/arrogance/greed and well, to be honest- our downright myopic, short-sighted stupidity..........

Can we do it Janos or do we need 'outside' help?

Re: Economics from the ground up

http://goodworld.gaia.com — Sat, 06 Oct 2007 17:48:26 GMT

Grace, Andrew

Thank you for taking up this thread. Your comments about some concrete "reality" issues are most apt.

Questions of property and livelihoods are an important part of "practical spirituality".

Somewhere I read the view that the "original sin" was really to do with choosing to value the fruits (results) of doing Good's will (tending the Garden--earth) over the process of doing it.
In due course that degenerated into the yard stick of "what is in this for me, here and now?". The business ethos is the most extreme manifestation of this descent into doing everything for an identifiable reward.

A Grace says, a good deal of self knowledge needs to be deepened as part of learning to work as a team. And part of that self knowledge is developed by working in the external world. Here, I can often appear as a "curmudgeon" to spiritually minded people who insist that "the only thing you can change is yourself". In my view it is a "yes" and "no" question.

Part of the "from the ground up" process is to realise that, whereas until about five hundred years ago we could, as individuals, choose to "negotiate with nature for survival", since the "closing of the Western frontiers"--meaning the gradual enclosure (privatisation) of natural resources--we have been reduced to having to negotiate with fellow human beings for the "right to live" by doing "jobs" for one another to get a monetary income. This change has opened widely a "market" for mutual exploitation.

There is a simple, practical and eminently feasible socio-economic solution to this distorted economic relationship between individuals and groups; but more of that in another post--this post is getting too long and transgresses against my private rule that "too many words bury the truth".

There is also a solution of similar quality to the basic question of "property" highlighted by Andrew. This is the solution to do with a distinction between owning pieces of nature and controlling natural creative processes for private benefit, and claiming ownership over things we produced through our own skills and effort or acquired from others in fair and free exchange.

Re: Economics from the ground up

http://andrewmarkmusic.gaia.com — Fri, 05 Oct 2007 01:02:00 GMT

I don't see that private property in and of it self is necessarily a destructive force. I certainly don't resent paying rent to my landlord. It seems to me that the American Dream does seem to be obsessed with private property (and now the world in general). My remark about private property as being a primary tenet of Fascism is only relevant to a Fascist state. My concern lately is that it seems to appear that other elements of Fascism ( complete control of populations via an alliance of corporations, governments and banks) are becoming increasingly prevalent.......Maybe this is just my skewered projection........

From the Christian perspective the idea of stewardship i think is healthy and i think modernism has done a disservice to all life by tossing spiritual principles into the sewer of time......Maybe it's time we took the healthiest and best/excellent principles of the worlds spiritual traditions and reintegrate them before we end up in a place we don't want to be. Also, from the Christian perspective the appearance of a one world Fascist state is just too disturbing to ignore, as the only thing these recent trends is missing is that lone world dictator aliasly known as you know who.......I'm sure we don't want to go there either.....

Profit is not a dirty four letter word but the pathological pursuit of profit may be the undoing of us all..........................

Re: Economics from the ground up

http://sunight.gaia.com — Thu, 04 Oct 2007 22:36:28 GMT

Janos,

I am just coming up to speed with many of these posts. As I was responding to the question of my "Vision" for the future, and reading your post in the "Go here first" for today, I felt compelled to post here. Whatever we decide to do, be, activate, evoke, etc., it is important that we have done enough reflection on our personal natures to be able to design any new way of living. It still, in my opinion, comes down to individual growth and change. For instance, the issue of being slaves to employers for that magic carrot. We must look, on an individual basis, to how we are buying into that way of living. If we can't see what we are doing to keep the 'system' going, and be willing to change it, then we continue to perpetuate it.

For instance, when I was purchasing a condo, my value was that I didn't want to purchase anything newly built, that took up land for the purpose of greed. I really don't believe in 'owning' land, but you have to live somewhere, and the system requires you to be a part of it, if you want to be as economical as possible, within that system. How many folks are working at jobs to make money for their creature comforts, as slaves to the system? In order to change the status quo, one has to be willing to rock the boat, one's own, as well as others. We can't point to others and say 'you have to change' - and not practice what we preach. We must be the change....And others will have to see the benefit of making that change - that's human nature.

Re: Economics from the ground up

http://goodworld.gaia.com — Sat, 11 Aug 2007 22:21:17 GMT

Hello Wiseman,
It is good to get encouragement to expand here because I am also compelled to think about this since it is such a fundamental issue.

I think we have to go at least as far back as John Locke and his famous triad of Life, Liberty and Property.

I am running out of time now but wanted to put a marker down to come back to tomorrow.

Meanwhile, I love the statement, Every individual is a creative expression of the universe.

I am also looking forward to exploring our shared interest in the idea of simplicity (voluntary simplicity, that is).

Re: Economics from the ground up

http://mywiseman.gaia.com — Fri, 10 Aug 2007 19:51:45 GMT

Janos,

I find the topic compelling. I'd love to hear your proposals about an economic system devoid of ownership. Is the scope only land ownership that is troublesome? How will we manage socially without a deliniation around property rights etc. I have not given the matter much thought and am intrigued to understand more about where you are going with this.

Warmest Regards,
Wiseman

Re: Economics from the ground up

http://keithb7862.gaia.com — Thu, 09 Aug 2007 23:19:35 GMT

It pleases me to see that we are returning to the ideas and concepts of Native Peoples, specifically of North America. Before we Europeans arrived, private ownership of such things as land, water, minerals, etc., was an alien concept.

Who actually owns the earth?

Re: Economics from the ground up

http://goodworld.gaia.com — Thu, 09 Aug 2007 22:52:38 GMT

"...private ownership of resources may not be beneficial. Correct?"

Yes, correct. Private ownership of nature-given resources enables one of the two fundamental monopolies to siphon off all surplus wealth into private preserves.

The great failure of socialists was that they were not interested in distinguishing between owning nature and owning the products of human effort. The blanket ideology that "property is theft" was a very harmful oversimplification. "Some property is theft" would have sufficed as a guide to the socialists' version of a just world.

In fact, to condemn equally the capitalist's ownership of a factory, for example, and the landlord's claim of ownership over the plot of land under the factory, was a big strategic as well as legal mistake. This united two "enemies" into one strong force against labour.

State ownership of natural resources is not a safe solution either since present day governments are not much more accountable than private corporations. The best pattern is being followed by the policy in Alaska where a substantial part of the oil revenue is distributed as public dividend. But the policy needs to be extended to all natural resources, especially the rent of urban land.

I am not convinced that mere collective ownership would be safe enough since collectives can be manipulated by ambitious and cunning minorities. Maybe some collaborative investigation of these things should be undertaken. There is plenty of literature available if we know where to look (but not much of relevance is in mainstream economics as far as I am aware).

Re: Economics from the ground up

http://keithb7862.gaia.com — Thu, 09 Aug 2007 21:35:47 GMT

So Janos, to paraphrase, you are suggesting that private ownership of resources may not be beneficial. Correct?

We're already seeing this in the world today. The citizens of Iraq are overwhelmingly against turning their vast oil reserves over to corporations. Venezuela claims to have a populist government made possible by their oil reserves, which are owned by the state. In Mexico and a California municipality recently corporate ownership of water was rejected . . . and placed back in local governmental control.

So, in keeping with the objective of the pod, the solution to exploitation of resources and people is collective ownership. Many may not want to have government manage this at it would be too much like communism, which has a bad name. What about cooperatives?

You bring up some very good points here.

Economics from the ground up

http://goodworld.gaia.com — Thu, 09 Aug 2007 11:32:08 GMT

What links here:
Corporate sponsorship for Education?

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Economics is the simplest of the social sciences. (Henry George)
Good economics is the outcome of the truth that human effort applied to free gifts of nature creates capital and all other forms of wealth.

The above definition implies all the true laws which modern economics buries under a heap of voodoo economics.

If we do not have access to the creative forces of nature we cannot keep ourselves alive;
If access to the creative forces of nature is controlled by private interests, we are essentially slaves of those interests no matter how benign our masters are.
"...teach a man to fish and he will feed himself for life." This is a half-truth because if the river or lake is claimed as private property by someone else, the man can only feed himself with the permission of the "owner" of these natural resources.

This is not to call for revolution; only to reexamine some of the natural laws which seem to have been replaced by man made property laws over nature.

This calls for close study of some simple and unadulterated economic ideas before we can productively* discuss the issues already raised in the other threads.

I will wait for some feedback before plunging into more detail.

*By this I mean that only when we understand the real problem do we have a chance of mounting an effective (and peaceful) campaign for legitimate changes.
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The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists. (my emphasis)

Joan Robinson