Gaia: Knights & Maidens of the Roundtable - Education - Do we need History as part of our education?

Re: Do we need History as part of our education?

Thu, 06 Sep 2007 01:11:35 GMT

Hmmmm... well, that was not my most coherent post, but I invite you to read my most recent blog entry because it approaches the issue of depletion and economics from a somewhat different angle. One of the things about current conditions is that we are in a time of declining resources in a time of increasing demand. Also it is a time when we are on the cusp of depletion of many critical resources: oil, soil, strategic metals, etc. the market doesn't understand the signals generated by a depleting resource, because it doesn't respond the way resources do when there is an adequate supply: if a material becomes scarce due to short supply the price goes up. Then someone figures out a way to increase the supply by extracting more of the resource to make a profit based on the higher price. Eventually the price and supply and demand find a balance point. Now however we are in a time when a primary resource is entering a period of decline: oil is at or near it's production peak. A resource which is scarce because it is disappearing will not become more plentiful due to increased price, except perhaps marginally because someone opens a previously abandoned oil field, or mine. A resource in decline will just get more expensive. And if the resource is as important to industrial civilization as oil is this presents a fundamental problem to society. When multiple resources are nearing the tipping point at the same time the foundations of the civilization will shake, and may in fact fall. This is the time we are in. Globalization will collapse because it presupposes cheap plentiful energy, which is disappearing. Conservation and relocalization will be the only way to stabilize society after a period of collapse and serious suffering. This period will be the result of the inability of society as a whole to digest the fact that it is on an unsustainable course, and that its basic presuppositions are in a sense suicidal. Our consumerist way of life, spread all over the map will not be able to sustain itself in the face of drastically increased energy costs. We will have to readjust.

History would show us that resource depletion... the destruction of one or more critical resource on which the society depends for its very life... is at the root of the demise of many cultures in the past.

Re: Do we need History as part of our education?

Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:11:05 GMT

Well, I knew I'd get sucked back in... at least a little.

I am not sure how to do this so I will just use the most direct way, if somewhat crude, and paste Janos' post from the dreaded Esoterics Thread:

Hello Curmudgeon,
Just stay around a bit longer to hear what I have to say :-).
Janos:
“I have more to say about what seems to be a developing dispute about “secret cabals” like the illuminati…”
Curmudgeon:
NO Please, No!
Wait a bit; you haven't heard what I am going to say :-)).
“Conspiracy theories” (and they include the dozens, if not hundreds, of creation stories) are used as a most subtle weapon in diversionary tactics. They are a hopeless morass of truths, half-truths and plain disinformation.
They are diversionary because they lock the mind into the surface layer of human reality where all the symptoms of a badly designed social system froth like smelly pollution.
Please note, this is not a criticism of the people who are passionate about the various conspiracies.

I think that the passion comes from the belief that ”the truth shall make you free”. The truth is that “truth” is not enough to make us free. It is only necessary, but on its own it is not sufficient.
It is not sufficient because, as another high value rule of thumb states, You can lead a horse (camel) to the water but you cannot make it drink.

Fast-forward to the positive recommendation: look for the root phenomena that manifests as conspiracy. That root is the successful privatization by the “conspirators” of the creative forces and substances of nature. As I said elsewhere, we have been made into the domesticated servants of a minority.

Becoming aware of the essence of domestication, explains, I think, how.

You fence in an animal in nature, or fence in its food supply, and you have got him. The animal can no longer maintain and propagate itself. From then on, you feed and maintain it and it will work for you in return.

This project of domestication has been slowly brought to a conclusion in the West during the last few hundred years, and more rapidly all over the world during the last few decades under the guise of “globalization”.

There is no remedy for conspiracies, but there is a remedy for domesticated humans. That remedy lies in a change of consciousness, but a change in very concrete terms. It happens when we become aware of what really hurts and imprisons us.
All this is summed up in the original statement of objective: “…subdue the (roughly) ten thousand year old conspiracy of a minority to dominate and exploit the surplus labour of the majority.”

How this “subduction” will be brought about in practical terms will have to be guided, again, by new contents in public awareness, best expressed by the Late Willis Harman (of Global Mind Change fame):
“…no matter how powerful the economic or political or even military institution [is], it persists because of its legitimacy, and that legitimacy comes from the perceptions of people. People give legitimacy, and they can take it away. A challenge to legitimacy is probably the most powerful force for change to be found in history.” (author's emphais)
So, lawyers and public trust holders (public servants trusted with fiduciaries duties) of good will, we need your input to the round table quite early.
Please get to work in Education and Politics and the Morality sub field of Social Development.

PS. Aplogies for the length of this post. Hope it does not sound like a sermon.

No apologies necessary, except for misspelling my name. And I liked what you had to say for the most part. I have been reading a book entitled England and the Crusades... it isn't here right at the moment so I'll have to post the author's name later... and it is apparent from that book where he explicitly mentions the distortions of chroniclers for their own agenda, and from any book you might like to read about the Gnostics, as a for instance, where we had little understanding f gnosticism apart from the polemics of those who were persecuting them. It wasn't until the Nag Hammadi library was discovered that we had an extensive collection of texts from the time of the Gnostics. That is just one example. I posted somewhere about the origin of the idea of Lemuria in the racism of european geographers unable to accept the navigational genius of the Polynesians. Etc., etc.

I think that many of the strange conspiracy theories that propose complicated explanations for political realities, especially if they rely on secret cadres of ultra-powerful groups (generally including Jewish Bankers... an immediate red flag) are often a swallowing whole, or maybe a selective swallowing, of old conspiracies that often have their origin in the animosities of long gone parties, resulting in "histories" that have been accepted over time, told and retold as if they were truth and reemerge in the "New Age" where astonishingly gullible people will once again propagate them with very little research into where the information comes from.

To quote (roughly) the old professor in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe: "What do they teach the children in school these days?"

I mean come on, if you hear about a conspiracy that relies on complicated conditions of secrecy, how can you believe it? If we have discovered anything today it is that very little is really secret. Especially if it involves many people, and/or if it involves governmental agencies. I mean even the Bildergergers, the supposedly secret controllers, are hardly secret. And really, is it the Bilderbergers, or the Masons, or the Rothschilds, or the British Royals, or who, that really control everything? It can't be all of them.

And do you really think it would be possible to have the Twin Towers blown up in secret??

OK. Anyway, we are probably pretty close on The Conspiracy thing, but why label the existence of a hierarchy in human affairs a conspiracy? In what way is what you are proposing different from what Marx & Engles or many others proposed, except maybe that it is supposedly based on "spiritual" principles? Globalization is going to die from its own folly long before we can make a dent in it. Sometimes a little extended thought goes a long way (is that redundant?). The problem is that we don't have the patience to do the research. And if you feel like you have to apologize for a moderately "long" post, where will we be if we have to say something really involved. We can't get all our information from magazines or from Wiki. And we have to be able to be clear even in long thoughts.

My time is up for now, but I'll be watching the thread... enjoy

Re: Do we need History as part of our education?

http://andrewmarkmusic.gaia.com — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 01:38:17 GMT

We love you Curmudgeon! i love Karen Armstrong's books, very informative....
Will and Ariel Durant's 'A History of Civilization' were the History books i enjoyed most....
Also, Peter Coyote narrates an awesome video documentary called 'The 500 Year War' which chronicles the racial and cultural genecide of the First Nation People (North American Indian).Be well, andrew....

Re: Do we need History as part of our education?

Tue, 14 Aug 2007 18:44:07 GMT

Peekaboo!

Yes Tuan, in fact I have before me a little paperback, probably out of print, but then I do most of my shopping in used-book stores, by Thich Nhat Hanh, (c) 1967, entitled "Vietnam — Lotus in a Sea of Fire — A Buddhist Proposal for Peace" , with a forward by Thomas Merton. It as been long since I read it but I recall it as being a powerful book.

Later!

Re: Do we need History as part of our education?

Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:59:52 GMT

I guess our politicians careless about history that is why they commit to another endless war just like the one in Vietnam for only 30 years apart.

Yes, I agree, history is very important for our children. At least history satisfy one of the ultimate question "Where are we come from?" as long as we still experience time the past is valuable to us.

Thanks to Curmudgeon, I think we should introduce these books to our education system in the very near future, heh??? and thank you all for satisfied my curiosity.

Re: Do we need History as part of our education?

http://goodworld.gaia.com — Sat, 11 Aug 2007 10:07:05 GMT

Yes, yes! But what kind of history? Not the kind that put my wife off history for life (dates and kings and battles).

Although nation states are players in history, history should not be mainly about their power trips (except as source of salutary lessons).

Without a historical perspective, collective consciousness is crippled by amnesia. That is why politicians get away with endlessly repeating past mistakes.

History is the universal matrix because everything has a history. Referring back to our project here, each subject has a history (as well as a philosophy).
Then there is even history of history and philosophy of philosophy. This is in the "recursive" nature of "holistic thought".

But these last considerations need to be pursued in our thirteenth space.

Re: Do we need History as part of our education?

http://katrinamae.gaia.com — Sat, 11 Aug 2007 05:49:06 GMT

Wow, Curmudgeon, what a treasure-trove for a young'un like myself! I hope you know that your list will not go unnoticed or unused. ;)

Re: Do we need History as part of our education?

http://keithb7862.gaia.com — Fri, 10 Aug 2007 22:30:35 GMT

Yes, Curmudgeon, tis your busy season now, so we understand.

But know this. Your contribution to this and other pods has been immense. I have learned so much from you and I, for one, greatly appreciate and admire you, your effort, and your passion.

You are an asset to our community. Never, ever doubt that. Even though we may understand your absence . . . this does not mean we won't miss you. You will be sorely missed.

Be well. Spoil all your customers. And allow your beloved and those children and grand children to spoil you . . . because you deserve it.

Re: Do we need History as part of our education?

Fri, 10 Aug 2007 18:32:53 GMT

Well, of course, the answer is YES! There isn't a book written on any subject with no bias, so plunge right in! Americans don't know much about American History either really, only the "classic comics" version. You know "Remember the Alamo!" "I shall not tell a lie, I cut the cherry tree with my little axe" That kind of stuff. They don't know that George Washington murdered a French envoy on the frontier as a young officer, they don't know that there were many who thought he was an incompetent General during the Revolution and a pompous president. There is a lot they don't know, even about themselves, why do you think America is so lost? Because we have so little understanding of where we came from.

Anyway, here are some history books I would recommend to anyone:

"A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century" by Barbara Tuchman: the Hundred Years' War and the Black Death in the same century... Aaack!

"The March of Folly" by Barbara Tuchman: Governments doing foolish things even though people should have known better and some did.

"A History of Private Life" (in 5 volumes... I only have the first 2) Philippe Aries & Georges Duby, General Editors: The minutia of private life, and what makes a life private as opposed to public

"Civilization and Capitalism, 15th through 18th Centuries" (in 3 volumes) by Fernand Braudel: A brilliant set of books looking at the economic history of the world, though mostly Europe as it is well documented. The first volume "The Structures of Everyday life" is my favorite but they are all excellent.

"AD 1000 — Living on the Brink of Apocalypse" by Richard Erdoes. The title tells it all.

"In the Wake of the Plague - The Black Death and the World It Made" by Norman Cantor. How the Plague changed social structures by killing 1/3 of the population of Europe.

"Eyewitness To History" edited by John Carey. Eyewitness accounts of moments in history from Thucydides description of the Plague in Athens in 430 BC to the fall of President Ferdinand Marcos [hooray!!] in Manila, Phlippines 24 -25 Feb 1986, and including a description of dinner with Attila the Hun around AD 450, a Viking Funeral in 922 AD by Ibn Fadlan, an Envoy of the Caliph of Baghdad, and an account of prisoners of the Inquisition, 1568-1575 (Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!), along with many other gems.

"Holy War - The Crusades and Their Impact on Today's World" by Karen Armstrong

Then on the American scene: Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States", and his "Declarations of Independence". "The Federalist Papers" and "The Anti-Federalist Papers" both published by Signet, and "Documents of American History" 2 vols edited by Henry Steele Commager. Also, Paige Smith's opus History of the United States in numerous volumes, and "American Aurora - A Democratic-Republican Returns" by Richard Rosenfeld. The Story of the years leading to the 1800 election pitting Thos. Jefferson against John Adams, and the time of the Alien and Sedition Acts, and the struggles of the Republicans (not the GOP of today!) against the Federalists in the newspapers and the streets and the Congress. A page-turner!

Just a few suggestions. I am reducing my presence on all pods at least until winter when I will have more free time. See you all later! I will think of you often. I will be blogging occasionally, so check in.

Re: Do we need History as part of our education?

http://katrinamae.gaia.com — Fri, 10 Aug 2007 16:58:54 GMT

Oh no, no, no! :) BOTH books are absolutely wonderful - I meant it was "crap" that I had to wait 'til I was out of regular schooling before I learned those wonderful things about the religions of the world and the myths and connections! Sorry, Tuan!

Re: Do we need History as part of our education?

http://enlightenedthinker.gaia.com — Fri, 10 Aug 2007 15:28:02 GMT

I'v e taught World Civilizations in college and most of the students have never studied anything more than their own history. I confuse them at times with my approach, a more social and biographical history, one Thomas Carlyle espoused when he said "history is biography".

I come from a liberal arts view, we study the People who influenced the histories, it is more of a social history. We learn how people have come to the cultural understandings and also how they are perceived in their countries.

I will not focus as much on war, or battles and all the malarcky....we look at reasons, small things that create the large, people that are able to persuade the masses of their insane proposals!

History to me is no more than His-Story...we all have a story and right here on this POD we can see the stories differ dramatically, so to me, there is no one history.

Blessings

Re: Do we need History as part of our education?

Fri, 10 Aug 2007 15:14:36 GMT

Which book is crap "Power of the Myth" or the other one??? I love "Power of the Myth" such an enlighten view.

Absolutely Katrina, art history is always much unbiased. Unfortunately we don't have enough artists to capture all of what happened through time. Furthermore we do have some art that is truly propaganda. However art history is always very honest because the artist feeling is from the heart.

I didn't go to school here in USA, however by review my children school work I got to say, this history need to be revised. Much of the history that my children learned from school is American Civil War. What is so big deal about that? I guess American think that we teach the children the fact of freeing the slavery will help to ease the social unrest between black and white? But what about there are facts that American genocide the American Indian? How about the American soil belongs to the American Indian? These things are taught very little because there are little Indian left on this vast land. To me they are truly crap.

How about world history? I don't see it in my children school work yet, she just starts the Middle School next fall.

Re: Do we need History as part of our education?

http://katrinamae.gaia.com — Thu, 09 Aug 2007 23:18:39 GMT

Through Art, that's how to teach non-biased history! I learned more history in two semesters on Art History than I had in my entire schooling life (accept interests that I persued on my own outside of school). And it's was wonderfully unbiased, because we were learning about art, and you can't teach art history without talking about some of the most beautiful and tragic histories of each culture, since those things often inspire art. I think that from a young age, we should study "World History" and "Art History" and "Comparative Religions" and "World Mythologies," instead of so much U.S. history, stuffed down our throats. That would give us a true world view, an interconnectedness among humans. I think those are the four most important subjects I've studied in my life, and I had to wait to receive three of them in college, and one of them from a book that was given to me (The Power of Myth, by Joseph Campbell) and a book I sought (A History of God, by Karen Armstrong)! What crap!

Re: Do we need History as part of our education?

Thu, 09 Aug 2007 21:18:05 GMT

"War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." I love this, where do you get it???
Non-Bias History is OK but how do we know to recognize the Non-Bias one???

Re: Do we need History as part of our education?

Thu, 09 Aug 2007 20:11:08 GMT

Tuan,

I think children should learn everything about the world's history in a non-biased way. I have talked to a few people in the USA in the past about this, and they can tell you everything about the Civil War, but they have no idea about French, German or Chinese history... They end up having a tunnel vision ("I don't know much about Germany, but I think we won a few wars against them, didn't we?"). There is a lot going wrong there. Given that humankind is interconnected, there should be ways to have at least a reasonable insight into every continent's history. They say history is written by winners. History is contaminated with so many points of view, I think it is good to get back to the facts, and to the actual people and their individual lives in a specific period. How did Farmer Joe perceive the middle ages or whatever? Break the mould and teach history in the most unbiased way possible. That's my opinion. Once you know more about other cultures and how they are connected with your own, you tend to judge less. History is full of Ego, isn't it.
Somehow this makes me smile about what I heard a few times in the past: "War is God's way of teaching Americans geography."

Best wishes

Do we need History as part of our education?

Thu, 09 Aug 2007 20:03:50 GMT

In my lifetime I have seen history changed faces so much. They are bias so very much to the historian perception. Do we need to teach our children history for what I know history is like a propaganda tool for the government???