Gaia: Knights & Maidens of the Roundtable - Philosophy - Are children naturally born good or bad?

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

http://songofstorms.gaia.com — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:48:07 GMT

You? Crave attention? : P Not sure I buy that one, mr. wolf. : D But I suppose it could be true. Everything you say, I agree with. Here's your attention... Wolf! how do I love thee? let me count the ways Those ridiculous ten foot monstrocities you tend to carry you used fairly well, I must say. always had a good eye on ya, even though occasionally, it was but one. fairly good cook, musician, etc. wolf! he's the cheese. the little cow! hell yeah.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

http://thelittlecow.gaia.com — Mon, 14 Jan 2008 20:01:10 GMT

Since I am a new arrival, and crave your acceptance AND attention. I must say that children (human children) are born mostly purplish and augment their shade based upon their parents' and social group's expectations.
The binary 'good|bad' dichotomy is a result of relativity of outlook. Children have only 2 fears at birth, falling and loud noises. Everything else about their personality is pretty much taught or encouraged, and then labeled "good" of "bad" based on the place the observer is standing and came from.
There is no such thing as evil (or bad), any more than there is a dark switch on the wall in your house. You really can not define good or bad objectively, so the concepts are useless.

-the little cow
Wolf Halton

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

http://mferrari4peace.gaia.com — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 18:42:58 GMT

Tuan, I quite agree with you, having 2 daughters myself! We are born full of love and potential, because we have the spark of God within our soul. That spark is the same in all of us, because God is immutable, one. AND, we are individuals with distinct souls and personalities. We all know of many situations where very different adults come from the same family, and that identical twins from the same family still have some differences.

I understand how the original sin idea is bothersome. I abandoned it along with mainline christianity in my teenage years (i.e. long ago!), and I think for good reason. Much in the dogma/doctrine bound religions has been warped. God is love, which is simple. Dogma and doctrine shouldn't be required; what is required is a teacher to show by example...as Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, Gandhi, and so many others have done. A real teacher can show us where we are separated, what we are doing and thinking that keep us from being connected to the Divine. A book can't do that, and most churches have hundreds or thousands of congregants, so even if the preacher/pastor/minister were enlightened (which is almost never the case), how could they personally teach all those people?

I still don't accept the idea of historical Adam and Eve (a post on evolution/creation is a whole other thing!). Rather, I find it easiest to think about my own "original" sin(s), that is - what thoughts, beliefs, and actions did/do I accept that separate me from being fully connected to God-consciousness?

And so I think you make an important point, an important statement, when you say the baby gains the sense of self and then separation occurs. IF we are all unique souls, individual manifestations of God (i.e. God's children), then the nature of that separation will develop according to that particular individual's soul. And that's where karma comes in, at least for me. My karma from past lives (i.e what I did, didn't do) determines what I will experience, what lessons I still have to learn. Because God is just and loving. God placed me in the right family, culture, social circles, etc. to have the possibility of learning those lessons and feeling remorse for past actions. For example, if I abandoned others in prior lives, I might be born an orphan or have my father leave when I was a child (which was the case). I can only tell you I can feel in my heart/soul the justice there; I had a tendency to abandon others before they could abandon me. Some will say that is because I am acting out what I was taught as a child, that my inner child "learned" abandonment. True, but I think/feel it also goes deeper. I got to experience it because it has been one of the things I have done in past lives, it is something that has kept me separated, because it is not loving, kind, or merciful to leave someone who needs me. I have felt the pain of it in this life, and I choose not to act that way from this point forward. That feels "good" to me!

Blessings to all of you who care about the nature of children and how they are raised....

Mike

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Wed, 29 Aug 2007 16:35:24 GMT

Although, I post the question but I pretty much have my own answer. I would like to contribute my 2 pennies on this subject.

For years I was torn between Good and Bad. I grew up as a Buddhist, the Buddhist believe we were born good but suffer and then when my family became Christian that when I was introduced to the Original Sin concept. Since then the confusion started. I lived with that debate for a number of years.

Then one day when I first held my baby girl in my arms, the debate seized. I knew for sure who we are.

We were born pure, full of heart. We had an unlimited capacity for love. This energy affect everyone surround us.

Good or bad is an opinion. It does not come from us, it come from an observer. We do not know what is good or bad when we were just a small child. The whole life is just the experiences. Our actions are just a series of experiences. Some are pleasure and some are not. Then we hear the adult say "no, it's bad" or "yes, that's good" that when we start to label our actions or experiences. I remembered when my child said the first word "bad" when she was 4 years old. Before that her innocence was beyond my understanding.

Good or bad is just a series of judgement. It does not come from our heart, it come from our mind. My finding return me to be Buddhist again (this statement is not to offend any Christian).

Although I'm not a Christian anymore but I have to agree with Jesus when he said, "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven" Matthew 18:3. Our future depend on our heart, the pure heart of a child.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Wed, 29 Aug 2007 15:00:05 GMT

OK Mike, I read your post again. The theory of Original Sin did bug me. I quite agree with you on the definition "separation from God is what is called sin", I remember I posted that somewhere. But my take isn't the experiences that cause the separation, it is the knowledge or the mind that cause the separation.

But baby does not have that separation, all they have is heart, only when the baby gain the sense of self then the separation occurs. Therefore, children aren't born bad, they learn to be bad when they have the sense of self.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

http://goodworld.gaia.com — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 13:22:39 GMT

I am fully with ~Kes on this, Man is basically good.

To my simple mind, the experiential proof that we have an intense natural need and desire to be liked and accepted is sufficient.

As a more sophisticated argument, I go with Douglas McGregor's "Theory Y" of human nature.

But I have to plug my basic passion as well here to tie an abstract argument to concrete reality: A universal guaranteed basic Citizens Income does not represent a moral hazard to a healty human being. On the contrary, it is in the best interest of society to materially support each individual to unfold their innate gifts and talents whether these offerings are "marketalbe" or not. See the relevant discussion.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

http://kathysmith.gaia.com — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 10:53:30 GMT

Man is basically good.

When the zygote in the sperm meets the egg there is pain and it is recorded in the cells. At birth it is better to be silent around the mother during delivery as both she and the baby receive and have recorded into the unconscious all the words said at that time. Nurturing and loving a child and helping them as they develop all of their perceptions and giving the proper nutrition all contribute to health and well being of children and adults. I work and help erase those recordings and know them to be real and see the relief once they are analytical about this. It is good not to have attempted abortions as all of that is recorded in the embryo.

We must love and forward the human race as we will be back.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Wed, 29 Aug 2007 09:37:59 GMT

Zazen,

what do you think about the idea of going one step further and saying: children are born with the inherent wish and need to be happy, to be free from harm and without the wish to harm anyone else, not even the idea of it. And making the next step ahead, can we say that this rather instinctive state is our natural state, whereas negative emotions and actions are not? And can we then say that we maintain this throughout our lives, if we act on it or not? The conclusion would be that human beings are inherently good.

Best wishes

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Wed, 29 Aug 2007 08:19:00 GMT

The fundamental difference between myself and my own Mr Smith is that my three piece suit is nicely pressed...

--

But as for the original subject at hand. My own two cents, as the saying goes, are still the same two cents.

Children are just born.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

http://andrewmarkmusic.gaia.com — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 03:18:22 GMT

Okay Martin, i have to confess that i gave away all my three piece suits in 1979 to go and count leaves on my Ficus tree for many many years!lol

And i now know thanks to Julian that Mr. Smith in the Matrix (with that lovely three piece suit) is just a projection of my own shadow....lol

Love Maslow- And as much as it pains me to admit it: That Richard guy is talkin' some sensible !@#$!!!! lol

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Wed, 29 Aug 2007 01:54:15 GMT

Yep, totally agreeing with you here again, sorry :-)

Full spectrum consciousness is required and this link discusses the issue at an organisational level (in alignment with your suggestion that we looked beyond our internal interventions)

If you dig through the Values Centre site you'll find a page where Richard explains his theory. It's based on deep experiential, practical science too across public, private and voluntary organisations so it's not merely a theory.

Based on Maslow's hierarchy the model expands out to offere 7 levels of consciousness.

When we're all working at this level we're out of the current paradigm and into our potential big time.

Rather than good or bad, right or wrong Richard uses a useful phrase to label certain behaviour ... potentially limiting ... interesting isn't it??!!

I'm meeting Richards head of European Operations over the next week or so, I'll report back on some of the outstanding potential already reached by the pioneers of possibility who pave the way for the rest of us to follow in relative safety.

;-)

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

http://andrewmarkmusic.gaia.com — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 01:22:10 GMT

Good point B.B. it's always good to make a distinction between the behavior and the person. One of the first good parenting tips.....

Martin, we all have the potential for good and bad behavior; but i'd agree, it's all about potential. Now how do we create a world that offers the maximum amount of potential to the masses instead of the few. In Wilber-speak, i would argue that we are not going to be very effective if we just focus on upper-left (interior of the individual) quadrant. To solve these issues is going to take a full-quadrant, full spectrum solution.....imho....

Cool discussion, Andrew...

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

http://onefriendwhomakesyoulaugh.gaia.com — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 01:04:34 GMT

I have never met a bad child.I have met many who born through circumstance do everthing they can to survive. Nature versus nuture this debate which has gone on forever,I remeber it being highly volatile when I was in college,I think because instead of seperating good from bad acts we label people as good or bad instead. When I held my children for the first time there was this overwhelming sense of wanting to protect them.I still hold my oldest in my arms and he is 23yrs.What I do know is when a child is not loved or protected something happens to them,they come into this world with needs that must be met and it throws the order of things out when those needs are not met. No child is bad,but bad things can and do happen to children,and their challenge,which is great,is to reconnect to that part of them which needs to be cherished and let themselves be loved.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Tue, 28 Aug 2007 23:57:06 GMT

Who could possibly get annoyed with your logic Andrew?

If we re-position our stance in asking the question it makes for interesting possibilities.

Are all human beings born with a potential for kindness?
Are all human beings born with a potential for limiting self beliefs?
Are all children both good and bad?
Are all children both bad and good?
Am I good or bad?
Was I born naturally good or bad?
Have I the potential for kindness and/or limiting self beliefs?

My two children, like yours, give me a new take on the question, they were 10 years in the waiting now a further decade plus, nearing teenage. When they were born the sunlight shone from some amazing places :-)
Now I see myself reflected and amplified through them :-(

So, regardless of labeling others as good or bad it comes back to me to be the change I wish to see in the world, and it's so frustratingly empowering.

Mx

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

http://andrewmarkmusic.gaia.com — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 23:40:42 GMT

Can i add my two cents here? okay, i'm going to anyway and if ya'all get annoyed with me, well, that's your issue!lol
I'm the dad of two awesome kids so i think i can speak on this issue if even a little bit. I think babies are born into this world 'neutral', sort of like a blank hard drive. Everything from then on is a combination of genetics and environment. You can fill the hard drive with love and compassion or teach it to be a killer by 7..............
But i would agree that the question is old and the results of that question framed in the 'or' manner has led to foundational beliefs in political conservatism and liberalism. The tradition liberal take being that children are born good and the traditional conservative take is that children are born little savages that need all kinds of social laws to keep them in line.
I'd agree that i think we need to re-ask the question and come to a brand new understanding that doesn't end up in polarized politics.........
I'm i being non-sensical again?
Peace-out, Andrew......

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Tue, 28 Aug 2007 23:03:10 GMT

Spending time with children of all ages I am in favour of the possibility that we are all alike as human beings. Our personalities, wants and desires varying little across all cultures and built over time by cultural influences.

The key (in my experience) to discovering or uncovering the commonality lies in experiential education. People doing the same exercises in a safe environment can discover their individual uniqueness and their collective simularity.

If we were all born good perhaps there would be no wars
If we were all born bad perhaps there would be no us :-)

What if we are all born alike.
Learning beings, listening, feeling, experiencing, sensing our way forward.
Uniquely gifted, commonly challenged and simply born into different scenes of a great play.
?

What if we are all here to learn from one another about what works and what does not?
What if the only person we can change is ourselves?
What if the greatest gift we have is love and using it as a force for good the greatest lesson we have to learn?

I for one raise my glass to all of humanity in all its guises and to the work of those who fight for equality in all its forms.

:-)

Martin
xxx

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

http://ResurrectedOne.gaia.com — Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:22:19 GMT

;-) How many generations does it take to change? Just One.
Me. or You. And even if you don't do it...I WILL.

If you believe in Original Sin...then your entire life is a struggle, a war, a jungle....(struggling against what is Natural) and you project that on the children...they in turn duplicate and relive what has been instilled int them, and this continues with each generation...until someone says, "Stop. It stops here. This thing stops with me."
(Just think of Gossip!!! I do not indulge in it, nor do I pass on the insanity!!!)

It's simple really...examine what you believe in and why...and Change them if necessary.
I did.

As one candle lights another, so I have done with my children...and they share this Love's Light wherever they go (Just like Mommy ;-))

This is MY ripple effect. This is how I change the world.

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:22:06 GMT

Hi Curmudgeon,

I'm a father of two great children, one girl and one boy. I observed them very carefully as they are growing. Until they became 5 years old, they were the wonderful being, full of grace. They had a capacity for love beyond our understanding. Their innocent is so pure, they are the most harmless creatures on earth. Until they start to develop the sense of self, then it is the whole other story. This is my proof.

Does it work???

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:19:42 GMT

"How many generations does it take to change then?"

This is a very serious question...

Re: Are children naturally born good or bad?

Tue, 28 Aug 2007 20:05:30 GMT

Hi Mike,

The point of "we are born with Sin because of our Karma" does make some sense but not all. Logically, what if I was a monk in my previous lives and I spent all my lives in a convent to pay for all my sin will I born Sin in this life? Of course this argument is just a hypothesis, who knows what we did in out past lives, so your point is taken.